it also seems bizarre and out of character for Ellie to not have looted that PS Vita. She's been collecting those cards the whole game. She loves her cassette player. She would have loved playing Hotline Miami on that thing!
@@InfamousJJ420 yet right after he kills the girl with the PS Vita, you can loot one of those trading cards literally in the same room… She apparently has time for that
@20:30 - You see, it's not very well known abroad but in the United States we do have groves and orchards of Bullet Bushes, Shell Moss, and Round Vines. It takes a while before you can actually harvest ammunition, but you know how it is with video games. Nobody wants to play a game where you plant a bullet and wait 2 years to harvest a fully matured bush.
I don't understand why games like these never thought of separating bullets from magazines? It would allow you to stock up on bullets, while still limiting you to 2-3 clips per fight, which you would then have to reload out of combat. It would also add some depth to the combat itself,having you choose between pistols and assault rifles with high fire rate and reload speed, but limited by the number of clips and bullets you have in each of them; and something like revolvers or shotguns, that shoot a lot slower but you can reload anytime.
I feel this, so fucking hard. I’m one of those gun-freaks, and it always tugs me the wrong way when I see a character use the *same exact damn mag* when they reload. Have these people never used guns before?
Swat 4 had realistic magazines instead of magically rearranging the bullets when removing a partially empty magazine. Insurgency took it further by removing the ability to see the bullets in your magazine. I think Squad and Escape From Tarkov have it too. And then Solid Snake had unlimited empty mags.
@@deadrivers2267 Talking specifically about survival-horror, or scavenging based games. In fast paced shooters the standard unlimited mag mechanic is ok, in my opinion.
well if you're going to go that route why even use guns at all? It's been like 25 years since the infection hit. Would there even be any bullets left anywhere? Why are there still supplies to be found in hospitals? Wouldn't those places get cleaned out first? Why is there still food in vending machines?
@@movieswithmatticus5469 You can make bullets, and all their components, out of common household (or at least, any decent mechanic's shop) items and tools. Its not an easy process, and they certainly wouldn't be as good as ammo made in a factory, but any decently-sized community would have the resources and people to support at least a small ammo-making workshop. The firearms industry is actually one of the few American industries that would be barely affected if global society collapsed. The vast majority of American guns and ammo are made by Americans, out of American raw materials, using American know-how and tools. As for your other points, completely fair. The only reasonable explanation I can think of is that another scavenger left it there (and presumably died).
Tbh, I never felt bad for killing the Wolves as Ellie. They have orders to kill anyone on sight regardless of who they are. Why should I feel bad for killing people who are trying to kill me?
I don't think the game is trying to make you feel bad for killing these people... the gamers are exaggerating saying "the game tries so hard making you feel bad for what you do" and it's not what I felt while I was killing these people, I was having fun instead and guess what? The game didn't fall for me. Everyone thinks they can read the minds of the writers and bla bla bla, it's like they're forcing themselves to not like the game for ANY reason.
Alejandro Alvarado Nah it felt like they were tryin to make me feel bad. Especially looking at the message this game’s story is tryin to hammer away. The idea that everyone you kill is a human being with their own story and whatnot. I personally don’t care either way. I actually liked that they called each other’s names and screamed initially. I thought it was a nice touch, but it just got more comical than anything. Especially when names were being recycled. Lol. I’m just making the point that giving random NPC’s names doesn’t all of sudden make them anything more than a random NPC.
I spent the whole latter half of the game thinking that the final twist was that Abby is immune TOO... so her sainted father could have prevented all of this had he only been willing to operate on his own daughter. If he had made the sacrifice Joel couldn't.
wish they'd have hired you, that wouldve indeed been great and shown the hipocricy of humans breaking their own rules when something valuable to them is on the line
I’m not defending the game and this is certainly a cool idea, I thought this might be the case as well in my first play through but it’s a little predictable or cliché. It’s one of those twists that’s cool at first but it doesn’t do anything else other than be a twist for the sake of a twist. Most of all it undermines Ellie’s importance in being immune.
Empty ending is exactly how I felt at the end. I didn’t learn some profound lesson about anger and revenge, there was zero redemption for any of the main characters, and after awhile I didn’t even feel sad, I just felt... empty
@@rayromano6249 no lol. unless youre 15 there is nothing deep or profound or genius about tlou2. its basic pop psychology tropes like "violence is bad mkay" wrapped in a shitty 3ps shooter that doesnt innovate its core gameplay loop at all. "violence begets violence." lol deep bro. you act like that isnt literally the most tired cliche around. shitty writing and lazy mechanics marketed to people who keep buying the same trite crap.
I think the issue most people have is how ham fisted the comparison is delivered to the player. You have several moments of sweet interactions with Alice (Abby's dog) as Abby, and then as Ellie, multiple instances where you have to brutally end a dog's life. It feels like they're trying to distance you from Ellie, and empathize more with Abby, and it feels like you can see the strings trying to pull you in that direction. It doesn't come across naturally.
@@KlaelDemon Yeah but does that not make sense, if this scenario was in real life? Dogs make amazing trackers you would be dumb not to use them in a zombie world, humans would build their own separate tribes, those dogs obviously will form bonds with people of those tribes, you are not one of them, so of course the dog is going to try to tear you to pieces, and of course the dog is going to act friendly to the humans who raised them. They want to chew your throat open because you are not their human. But yes despite all that I completely understand what you're saying, I just think it's a bit silly when people hint to not liking how depressing it is, when the first game was just as depressing... (you literally watch your little daughter die within 15 mins of the game, killed by just some guy doing his job, he even apologies but it's his orders) it's a zombie outbreak, it's not going to be flowers and daisies yanno?
I don't know if the game explicitly explains her age at any point, but I'd guess that she is meant to be in her early twenties in the present plot strand. She seems clearly older than Ellie was at the time in the '4 Years Ago' flashback, maybe around 18.
The Abby story was way too long, making Ellie's side far too short. And throughout the whole game, you kill how many as Ellie and Abby, I don't see why Abby get a pass
@danimalcollective1 I can understand that but, if you still think the story is revolving around the hero/villain dichotomy, you should look deeper. Check out this video analysis. th-cam.com/video/7sTxmRTlIW8/w-d-xo.html Maybe it can help you see it differently? If nothing else you might see the intentions of the writing and story telling. I agree the game is not perfect but, I don't think it should be lambasted like it has been by many.
danimalcollective1 I feel you with the rattlers thing. But neither Abby nor Ellie is the hero. Or the villain. Or maybe they’re both villains and think they’re the hero? It’s not hero v villain. It was showing the revenge cycle at two different stages. Ellie was everything leading up to the revenge. Abby was mainly dealing with the hollow feeling revenge gives you (her facial expression and nightmares) and finding purpose. Neither had happy endings. It was just showing two ppl with the same obsession try to overcome it at different points.
Gotta say, that was a bizarre and superficial take on Abby and her design. Basically, good video up until you cover Abby and her story and then you just fall back on a reading so superficial it pretty much misrepresents what’s written. What a shame.
It's difficult to think of something _less_ edgy than that, tbh. If anything, I'd call "I would defend myself" normcore. You want to be edgy these days, you gotta say shit either like "I would never defend myself under any circumstances, if you defend yourself you go to Hell" or like "I would annihilate everyone on earth before I suffer even a moment of inconvenience. I will personally kill everyone preemptively"
The big shame about TLOU2 is that it feels preachy when the first one didn't. The first game presented the characters and events in aneutral light and asked you to judge them for yourself. TLOU2 desperately tries to convince you of it's message, of it's themes. That it's views are true and good and you must see the light. That doesn't work for me at all. A phrase people have been passing around is that it's "a game about right and wrong made by people who always think they are right" and I can't help but agree.
@@kabirahmed5495 It's still preachy... It's like they want to spread a religion that *they* think is the right one and everything else is bad. (Not a great example...) You get what I mean... You were told by them to "how to think" or "how to feel" or even "what to feel" as if we're not human with thoughts, emotions and conscience. Edited : After arguing with some people, I thought I'd left this here. I'm not against LGBTQ+ because of anything. I pointed out that this topic of "agenda" seems preachy. That's all. Don't get all offended and call people names. Be civil. If you can that is... "At the end of the day, opinions are like buttholes. Everybody has them." -SomeOrdinaryGamer Everybody will have opinions and you're welcome to express it. If you can't afford to be civil then at least be reasonable. If you can't do both then I suggest you leave since you will not be taken kindly by most people and that will only hurt you more than anything else.
@@kabirahmed5495 what does uncharted have to do with the trashy and condescending narrative of the last of us 2? is ur comment supposed to have a point?
perfectly sums up the issues with the game while pointing out what it did right. the game suffers a lot from ludonarrative dissonance and poor character verisimilitudes
*Ludonarrative dissonance* is the conflict between a video game's narrative told through the story and the narrative told through the gameplay. *verisimilitude* is the quality of resembling reality. A work of art, or any part of a work of art, has verisimilitude if it seems realistic.
Coming to this a year later and having digested an absurd amount of analysis of this game, everyone seems to say the same thing in very different ways. Ultimately, that it disregards its existence as a game in order to tell a story how it wants, and the inability to reconcile with it's own medium led to all these problems. Here's two things to aid that point. 1: It's trying to address "cycles of violence" in games without ever implicating the player, as was done in Spec Ops, Undertale and Hotline Miami. Everyone seems to bring up that torture scene you aren't involved in beyond a single button press. 2: Telling a story out of order doesn't work when it's an absolute necessity to guide the player through. If all the framing doesn't justify Ellie's revenge quest till the last few moments, then what the hell is the point of the whole thing? In the long run, the one positive analysis I did see, had clearly divorced the medium it's supposed to be in from the medium it wants to, and viewed it as the latter. Even then they didn't come away thinking either of the two entries were worth the fuss.
”Everyone seems to say the same thing in very different ways” What are you talking about? This game is one of the most polarizing games ever made, it’s pretty much a 50/50 split on who likes it and who doesn’t. There are hundreds of videos praising the game while still being unbiased and acknowledging its issues. Maybe you have just watched the negative comments and videos.
@@goleer6694I think you've completely misread his statememt. "Everyone seems to say the same thing in very different ways" Isn't implying universal acclaim nor disdain. It's implying that the very reason people like the game is the same reason why others hate it.
25:06 pretty sure this is explained in lore. Runners are constantly in a battle with the cordecepys, which is why they’re sitting there constantly writhing around
Dude, it 100% is in the lore. I made a comment earlier just mentioning he also has misinformation in the video while speaking about misinformation. I get there is a lot to cover about the last of us, but just take notes. It helps get good points across when comparing both games as well as the comments.
Also, the whistling that the Seraphites ("scars" is a slur) use is a communication technique. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whistled_language This vid unfortunately makes it seem like it's a stupid idea to whistle to your allies in combat, but makes no mention of the enemies who shout their plans in English.
I think the part that everyone is missing isn't "if it's explained" but "why is this incorporated into gameplay" and he approaches that question quite well. Like in the other example of whistling, I haven't played it but it didn't seem like those whistles actually effectively made the AI more dangerous, forcing you to change your strategy or trick your enemy. I could be wrong, but if I am I don't see why anyone's not saying "actually, these things exist in gameplay for x reason" rather than "well we understand what's causing it or why it exists so what's the problem?" Good critics focus on the interaction of story and gameplay when evaluating games, and whether or not it's done well and with purpose. Just because this mechanic has purpose, is it done well? These are the mechanical questions that separate TLOS and other naughty dog games from movies -- and why movie buffs will probably like it more than gamers who aren't big movie fans.
@@connorrichard9851 Oh! I can correct this for you dude, I've finished the game. 😃 Honestly I love discussions about topics such as the difference between movies and games but 'lll get right to it! The whistling shows a form of communication as well as the separation between the different factions (as well as infected) in relation to communication. The whistling does influence the way the player can play, as the whistling is a clear indication of not only which faction you are fighting, but how quick the AI (of the scars/seraphites) will respond to situations. They in particular can be very stealthy and will mask themselves like the way you as the player can in tall grass and when they do this and whistle, the whistle echoes, so you as the player can't tell where it's coming from while being shot by arrows. Hope this helps! 🙂
My issues are with critics felating themselves with how they're too smart for you to understand the "depth" of the game's story. The divide of condescension and strawmen arguments masking glaring issues of employees being abused by their ego driven employer being showered in praise for potentially sabotaging their relationship with customers and ruining one of their biggest franchises. Neil shows no remorse for forcing his employees to endure so much pain only to have that effort fall on deaf ears. Technically it's amazing but it's tainted by a preachy self important story which was outshined by fucking Black Ops 2 of all games. I lost respect for Naughty Dog when they showed how little they care about their employees. They grandstand about being so progressive but when it comes to ethically treating their workers it shows their true colors. Fuck this game and fuck Naughty Dog. Give your employees that bonus which they rightfully earned ND
You understand every AAA game is produced by abusing workers and crunch right? You're not even wrong, just keep that same energy with games you love produced under the same conditions. It's pretty much every AAA game you will ever play. I'm not defending naughty dog, and I've never even played this game. I just keep seeing people with this energy over a game they have a grudge over, and then put the blindfold on to go play the rest of their favorite AAA games.
Don't forget he pushed Amy Hennig, one of the most influential women in the gaming industry who is someone to look up to, so he could uplift fake women in Uncharted 4.
37:42 - Part of the leaked info about the game was that it featured a trans character. Many people then incorrectly assumed this character was Abby, and I think her very muscular physique contributed to this assumption that she was a male-to-female trans character. To people who take any kind of inclusion of LGBTQ characters as 'political', this is probably what they meant. I took her physique to be a representation of how much effort she has been putting in to training herself physically in preparation to go out and get her revenge - i.e. it is a physical representation of her focus and determination. But I agree that it's not actually a good design given both how distracting it is, and how unrealistic given that food is presumably relatively scarce in this setting.
Right? Like what is so hard about that to explain? Eli’s girlfriend and best friend were dating before all this and they got pregnant. Pretty easy explanation lmao
I definitely appreciate this entire analysis, even though I really enjoyed the game. Just speaking to one of your points about the Scars faction - they call themselves Seraphites. "Scars" is the derogatory name that WLFs use for them. It's made as a point to stop referring to them as Scars when Lev repeatedly corrects Abby, and she eventually corrects herself when talking about them. Also in my playthorugh, Seraphites did call out each other's names in combat. But, I also agree that as a whole they were portrayed as a surface-level, indoctrinated "evil" faction. And one more thing - I found the little asides in scattered notes about a supposed "truce" between the Seraphites and WLF, where it's unclear which side broke the truce and began all the fighting again. Both sides believe the other caused all the violence. According to Lev, what the Seraphites want is for the fighting to stop, to which Abby says something like "Sure.." Abby later finds written Seraphite "prayers" that are optional to read, and there she kind of sees their wants and motives on a more human level.
It was clear to me neither group is evil and both also kind of are. WLF are super messed up. Isaac and his cronies capture and torture Seraphites while Seraphites do the same to the WLF. They radicalise each other. It's basically a macro version of the micro conflict happening between Ellie and Abby. I thought it was quite well done actually but this guy seems to have missed the point here. To be fair, he missed the point of most of the game too, so I'm not that surprised.
@@p.s6742 Its about the cycle of violence, and how those who participate in it are doomed to repeat it. Its about selfishness. Its about a lot of stuff. Also, The Seraphites and WLF are an allegory to the Jews and Palestinians.
@@p.s6742 Druckman came out and said in an interview that he was heavily influenced by the violence between Israelis and Palestinians at Gaza and the West Bank. It is another example of never ending suffering and conflict, along with Ellie and Abbys revenge plots and the suffering they cause, built into the game to push those themes. The Seraphites and WLF are an allegory to that whole conflict - even in the post apocolypse where everything is already fucked, youd have some religious zealots fighting over land against a more heavily fortified and powerful militant group, that pushes them onto their own island. The WLF would obviously crush them and has Seattle on lock, and all the Seraphites have are small pockets of terrorism, but the WLF then show up and storm the island and murder all of them in the middle of the night anyhow.
They could have fixed this game really easily. With a single change. Instead of Joel and Tommy saving Abby, it should have been Ellie. Then you play as Ellie and Abby throughout the game, and only later find out who Abby is and what she's after. THAT would have made Abby likeable. THAT would have given the player an actual dilemma. Instead, they try to forcefully manipulate you, showing Abby playing with dogs while Ellie mercilessly murders them.
Nope that would be probably failed becuase then how joel getting caught by abby would be justified having 25 years of surviving experience. That co-incidence meet up with alot of zombies after them makes sense that joel get caught up by them.
ellie save abby would be a dope, work way better. Let jsut say that ellie save abby, lead to joel death, that make ellie feel more guilt and none stop raging.
@@kabirahmed5495 lmao it already doesn't make sense the way it happens now. Why would Tommy randomly blurt out so much personal information to complete strangers.
@@Althecor they way you want the story is worse, it actually makes sense to me that tommy and joel living in a jackson becomes soft specially joel. They used to go on round looking out for survivors so it this might be the reason they told them that they are living nearby because they want them their trust in order to offer them a shelter in their town. Do u even know about what character development is!? Nature of people changes! Thats all i can say.
I am quite late to the party, but I am glad that this video confirms my suspicion of the story from just reading snippets of spoilers: the writing is too on the nose and preachy and likely not well executed. Another great video and I hope this channel continues to get its well deserved growth and appreciation.
@@krasmasov6852 the story chases ideals and it's goals while ignoring everything else. It even exist the characters when they don't fit it's narratives.
@@krasmasov6852 the story is about the cycle of revenge To start this cycle, Joel is murdered , and is quite obviously nothing more than for the plot. He was made To act out of character so the writers could kill him off. Now, most of the players, having experienced the first game, would be very upset with Joel's death. This naturally serves the revenge story. It makes you feel you are the character seeking revenge. At first ,when Tommy wants to hunt abby, Ellie stops him, giving many very ,very good reasons as to why that's a bad idea. She convinces Tommy not to go because she is sincere and open. Aaand she goes out for revenge by herself ignoring everything she said. The level of stupidity to do this, and bring along dina on what amount s to suicide, is beyond me. She then goes on a murderous rampage, and the young girls we knew so well in the first game is gone. Heck, Ellie has been through far worse, yet she always remained upbeat and snarky . Her character is ignored for the sake of the story;she is just a plot device, not an actual,fleshed out character. Ellie does horrible things, and the game tries to demonize her as much as it can, clearly removing any chance of relating to her. And then comes the Abby part. The story is about the cycle of revenge, but the game tries to glorify Abby as much as it can. Abby got her revenge, but Ellie didnt. There isn't even a cycle here. Revenge made abby, while it broke ellie. Anyways, the game blatantly tries really hard to make you support abby, despite the fact that her dad was a mentally retarded murderer who deserved his death. You don't make vaccines like that. Abby's story fails because it isn't subtlety playing with your emotions;it's brazenly trying to force you to feel what it wants you to. It completely ignored the first game and Joel's death(which would make a player hate abby). It's clear emotional manipulation, and the harder the game tries, the less it works. The player no longer relates to the characters, and they don't feel what the story is trying to make them feel. The game feels artificial and cheap, lacking any nuance. Emotional events carry no weight as you come to view it as an attempt to manipulate your emotions. The characters simply serve the plot, nothing more. The story is so idealistic,focused on its goals,that it looses the emotional investment of the player, and erases the characterisation of its characters. And it fuks up the goal as well.
@@dgagamingaesir Joel didn't act out of character. Going with Abby was his only option. He would've died to the horde or the blizzard otherwise. But yes, you're supposed to be horrified by his death. And no, you've got that backwards. Ellie wants to hunt Abby, and Tommy tells her why it's a bad idea. Tommy convinces her to give him a day to work out a plan. He leaves anyways and Ellie goes too like she always planned to. You've got the events here completely wrong. It's also ironic that you call this a suicide mission when Ellie and Dina both survive. Ellie has NOT been through worse. Are you for real? The hospital sent her survivor's guilt into overdrive. Then her relationship with Joel fractured hard. Then he gets murdered. This is the lowest point of Ellie's entire life. Also, I related to Ellie's desire for revenge. I'd feel the same way, though I'd like to think I'd be able to show more restraint than she did. Still, I understand her and am invested enough to find out whether or not she's able to start making the right choices. Lol the game introduces Abby as a monster. The vaccine would've worked by the way. The entire narrative of Part 1 fails if the vaccine wouldn't have worked anyways. No, the story very much expects you to hate Abby. And emotional manipulation is the core of all fictional storytelling. It's also easy to relate to Abby, especially when you learn her motivations and how revenge screwed up her life. The nuance is what makes the game great specifically because the emotional events carry so much weight. The characters are the focus of the story and drive the plot, not the other way around. It's not really that idealistic. Again, it's more about the characters than any ideological positions. You're just wrong on all counts here.
The way you wove together the idea that looking at just journalist scores or just gamers scores mirrors focusing on just Abbie's story or just Ellie's, and then bring that back to your earlier criticism of the game about their stories not recontextualising each other, and then proceed to use that lack of recontextualisation to recontextualise YOUR OWN CRITIQUE was absolutely phenomenal criticism on your part. 7/10.
54:25 I just want to add that Dina was pregnant by Jessie and that's where the baby came from, notice how he has Asian features. That being said, the idea of Ellie and Dina somehow "lesbian-ing" a baby together is my new head canon lol.
The name of the kid is JJ, cuz of joel and jessie. Also why is that hard to accept? I have straight friends with gay parents, whats weird about it? is it cuz of post apocalypse setting? if anything, it would make it more common imo.
@@naxotogo Oh I wasn't insinuating that a lesbian couple couldn't raise a baby together, I was making fun of how the narrator seems to imply that Ellie and Dina conceived JJ. That's what I meant when I said "lesbian-ing" a baby together.
Did you guys really not understand? He was being sarcastic, he knew it was Jessies baby but he jokingly acted like he didint know to express how forgettable Jessie was as a character because of how bad the writing was.
they should have written it where abby got saved and was integrated into joels group and everyone gets along until hours later in game play she finds out who he is. that could have been a huge writing development. maybe shes friends with joel and ellie by then. see, thats good drama. not forced either i hope.
never thought of that, but thats very good idea. and now that i heard that video analysis i see that this story is really too much manipulative, forced...
Even easier, just make abbys family less perfect, say they were up front with Abby with everything except how they would've gotten the cure from Ellie, they should have kept that one secret and been a little deceptive or outright lied to Abby about it"for the greater good" . Abby kills Joel and feels justified but later finds Ellie and finds out her parents were going to kill her and Joel killed them to save her... Huge shock to Abby and now feels shame and remorse.. Then the story could've focused on something else.
@@moja_wiesbaden9323 Exactly. Hell, I don't even care that Joel died. Like a lot of people have said, beloved characters are the ones you kill off because people have spent time with the character and grew to really like them and get attached. I just feel like Joel's death was NOT earned in any way whatsoever. It was forced, and extremely humiliating. I totally understand why the golf club memes exist. And hell, I'd even go as far to say that the way he DOES die (golf club to the head and being spit on) would be fine if Ellie had gotten her much deserved revenge in the end, but she doesn't. She let's Abby go and the whole story feels meaningless and hollow.
Just wanted to say I recently found your channel and have watched quite a few of your videos by now. I can't express enough how enjoyable they are and your hard work and effort does not go unnoticed. Thank you.
During the discussion about pressing square for the torture, I had the memory of Spec Ops the Line, (Spoilers for that game) - the white phosphorus level. Having the player have a similar "do this" choice, but the way it was presented and how that presentation drew out the emotions of the player in the aftermath of said action. That was well done to me.
Spec Ops worked by geniunely subverting expectations with that section. You think the base is just full of bad guys, only to have the game force you to walk through it and see what you've done. It even works for callous people that would laugh at the burning guys, because the reveal of the civilians shows how badly Walker screwed up. You go in thinking you're a cool guy hero soldier, only to find out you committed murder. There was thought and care put into the story. Last of Us 2 is about as subtle as slamming a sledgehammer against a trashcan.
This is the best review of this game I've seen. Everyone else is either "Oh it's just SJW trash" and it's clear they haven't played the game because they keep calling Abby trans. Or they're "It's a wonderful masterpiece and the people hating on it doesn't understand the point of the game, it's ending and haven't even played it. They're all just right-wing incels". This review, on the other hand, is great because it breaches the extremes and gives a nuanced, but still critical review. Thank you, good sir. I very much enjoyed this video.
@@lexbaldwin5613 You gonna go full conspiracy theory and call it is leftist propaganda as well or are you happy just assigning absolutely meaningless labels like "sjw" to it?
Lex Baldwin I disagree. I think if naughty dog did really have this horrific “sjw agenda” they would have made it way worse. They could have made you play as Ellie only killing straight white males. They could have made all the female characters have perfect happy endings and given them impenetrable plot armor, but they didn’t. In my opinion, there’s nothing wrong with representation of trans people, lesbians, or strong female characters. I think Abby’s arms are a little absurd, yes, and I also think that Joel should have had a more honorable death, but it didn’t ruin the game for me because the point of the game is to challenge you; to make you frustrated, angry, and disappointed. I’m not saying I loved this game, but I can understand their intention.
@@pixarboy02 oh, I understand their intentions, too. They failed to do the legwork to make their payoffs satisfying. They didn't do the work in the writing room to make their characters actions make sense. They made sure to have their representation™ but allowed the writing to be sloppy. That's how you can conclude that it's pushing an agenda. They care more about the gender of the characters than the characters themselves.
Excellent video. Several profound points that I hadn't considered. What really set it apart as well was how your tone of narration changed. I could feel what you were going through as you contemplated and mulled over the many aspects and details of the game and its place in the industry. Unforgettable and I look forward to watching more of your videos! 👏
You do, by far, the best level-headed analysis of games, their controverses and the reviews that surround them. This is why I watch you. It doesn't hurt you have a pleasant voice either. Much love, great critique.
@@harrynguyen2503 I almost dropped a public comment to call him out on this but saw yours. It's gonna take a while to flush the cringe out of my system
@@gronndar Not exactly sure, he kind of just threw that out of left field. Surely he must have been aware Dina got pregnant from her relationship with Jesse. I'd figure that was obvious and probably a common occurrence in a world where birth control and condoms are most likely non-existent.
I thought the game relied too heavily on plot conveniences, like hardened killers talking instead of killing their target right away, and world-building letters. Like, so many people that decided to write letters just conveying useful info on their death beds, and just happened to be found by Ellie (and Abby too I think) instead of any other person passing through. I realize the letters were probably the most practical way of world building in an already dense game plot, but some of them seem really pointless, even the ones of correspondence between two characters because we barely know (or don't know at all) the characters writing the letters. I mean, just look at the leader of the Scars, or Isaac, the leader of the WLF who was built up to be this epic tyrant in the letters, yet is -killed off a minute after he finally shows up on screen- *edit* Oops, he was introduced before. I guess I just forgot him... Also, the killing of Joel at the beginning BEFORE humanizing Abby was just...a really stupid decision. Not because it was sad, but because it ruined Abby as a sympathetic character, and it even hurt Ellie's character as well, arguably (she was mopey and unfunny the entire time because she missed Joel, which is understandable, but it deprived of us of seeing much of her as she was in the first game) The story could have been both Joel AND Ellie looking for Tommy's killer (Tommy could have been killed over mistaken identity) while dealing with the strife between them, interspersed with the Abby sections building her character up to and after her killing Joel. Then Joel could start to get second thoughts after Ellie is nearly killed, deciding that keeping her alive is more important than revenge, though Ellie would want to finish the job regardless. This would inadvertently cause Abby to kill Joel halfway or 2 thirds of the way through without Ellie having forgave him, which would torment her for the rest of the game like in the final product, and everything else could play out the same. Theyre relatively simple changes that could have made a world of difference imo.
Honestly loved your idea for how the game could have been, I feel it fixes the one major flaw I had with this game, which is the lack of Joel. Neil said that Joel’s presence is “felt throughout the game” and I disagree. I felt that the story is truly brilliant and it’s ultimate message really resonated with and impacted me heavily. I just feel sad that we didn’t get enough of Joel. However, I feel like if they had built Abby’s character and had you sympathize with her before she killed Joel then we wouldn’t have the same “rage” or motive as Ellie in the game. I can’t imagine playing through the whole game while being warmed up to the villain. I found the twist of getting really attached to Abby (although I didn’t like her very much) and knowing that I’m going to have to do something I don’t want to do as her to be quite shocking. I also feel like killing Joel in the middle of the game would also make fans outraged (as MOST, not all, people that hate the game just want to hate on it because Joel died, and forget about any other part of the game). If they added more flashbacks or made the prologue longer we could’ve seen more of Joel and Ellie and it would have been even more heart wrenching to see the events unfold. Still loved the game though.
@@tigerguy529 of course. This was a personal moment for each of us. I was on the side of going apeshit with the doctor and nurse. Other times i didn't take any actions and the character acted on his own.
Yes but you do realise a game that isn’t decision based doesn’t care about what you would do. It cares about what the characters would do in this scenario to actually survive
Ritoro how is that the point of the game when there’s multiple scenarios when the characters are talking about the decisions they will make. For example; in the trailer itself. The one that came out 3 years ago with Ellie playing guitar. She literally says she’s gunna kill everyonee. In the game, her own wife/gf says “Ellie if it were my sister’s killers on a chair I’d do much worse” . Ellie in the middle of the room screams she’s gunna kill Abby when Joel dies in front of her eyes. But once Ellie has the chance she thinks “Joel wouldn’t do this”. Tf. Joel almost saw Ellie die herself and shot the doctor and the other girl. Joel was beaten to death and we are forced as Joel in the first game to kill the doctor? That’s bullshit. If they wanted to send a message they wouldn’t have made us believe the narrative from the trailer and the narrative of the 1st through 2nd game just at the end to not get a decision to kill Abby or not.
Abby's gains seem like the same "gains for revenge" that suddenly hit Chris Redfield in Resident Evil 5, now that I think about it. Impressive gains, given the eternal question in all worldbuilding: "But what do they eat?", a shorthand for "how does this society work at a basic level" as it all starts with food. Still, I think, as you say, someone just wanted Abby muscular. At least, she does live in a place where she seems have what she would need to make those gains. I wish I made such gains... instead I'm watching youtube about a game I can't play on my 7th week of sickleave because my breathing is fucked and I have no voice. But at least there's ice-cream and youtube and I haven't needed a tube to breathe... yet.
Somehow my suspension of disbelief works for Redfield since he got his ass handed by Wesker in Code Veronica, so he some intense training I guess. Being part of STAR did help. but most of all, its normal, functional world
Also, i reject that the Dina + Ellie vignette doesn't matter. it establishes that by continuing her vengeance, there's something she knows she's giving up. at the beginning of the game the audience doesn't really know much about Ellie's life in Jackson, so we don't really know if there's anything there worth staying for vs going to avenge Joel. The vignette shows us that even when gifted with a (admittedly comically) idyllic life, she's still driven to do what she feels she has to. Disclosure: I'm not a fan of the 4-hour epilogue and I think it's not great for a variety of reasons. I'm not arguing that it should exist...but I'm arguing that given the final version of the plot, the vignette has a purpose and it's pretty effective IMO.
I disagree. There's no reason why the setting had to be so laughably perfect except to make up for poor character writing. All the narrative needed was that by continuing on Ellie was going to lose Dina. This could have happened literally _anywhere_ and been very moving... IF the relationship was effectively built up in the story. Part 1 didn't need to show us a scene of Joel living (or imagining) a cartoonish perfect existence with Ellie before he decided to go on a rampage to save her life. We knew what he was giving up if he let her die because the relationship worked. We felt the profound connection. My guess is that the reason you feel it's important to have the farm scene in Part 2 is because the Ellie/Dina relationship just wasn't very effective. Otherwise you would feel strongly what she was giving up, wherever it happened. Unfortunately, instead of showing an evolving relationship between Ellie and Dina - something that would naturally happen on such a journey - they remain pretty much in stasis after getting together. Instead of the well-observed subtle growth that was so effective in Part 1 the game pretty much forgets about them and just keeps throwing more and more wandering plot and underdeveloped characters at us and relying on a story told (nonsensically) in flashback for any emotional heft. I remember it feeling so weird that after getting to Seattle the relationship felt so dry. I mean, we only recently got together and I've been crushing on this girl for ages according to my diary. I actually wanted to have a button to hold Dina's hand! You know, _anything_ to make the relationship feel like something. But every time I walked towards her she jumped violently out of the way! Then Dina just gets parked in the hotel and that's about it. Ellie pretty much goes off on her own, and then we follow Abby. So yeah, instead of an effective scene where Ellie wants to carry on but Dina has had enough, and Ellie faces the decision of losing the love that she has gained through the journey in her quest for hate-filled revenge... we have to be shown the perfect house, the perfect sunset, the perfect baby, and the perfect little sheep just to feel like she would lose something. What the game fails to do with a touching relationship it has to make up for by hitting us over the head with a cartoon hammer. And for me at least, cartoon hammers aren't very effective.
@@grantmalone Damn, I enjoyed the epilogue part but you're actually right. I did think that Dina and Ellie's relationship felt a little contrived, and as much as I really wanted to care about them as a couple, they didn't give me that much of a reason to, honestly. It's like, after reading the notes about how they've liked each other for years, we're being told how to interpret their relationship rather than it being shown to us, which is never good. I will say, they weren't nearly as well developed as the relationship between Joel and Ellie, because Joel and Ellie were the central focus of the first game, while Dina and Ellie's relationship is not the focus of this game. Granted, they definitely could've been better developed still but yeah.
another thing that Dina lacks is... well, actually being a character. Literally everything that Ellie does or says, Dina agrees with, and if she doesn't, she just shove her opinion up her ass. Heck, she leaves her friends and family for a hichschool crush, basically. In summary, Dina is only present to be in service of Ellie. She's like Gwen in Amazing Spider-Man, instead of Ellie in the first game which was more of a Mary Jane from Sam Raimi's Spider-Man, that is, she was obviously not the main focus of the game (Joel was) but had such a strong character and independance that we all love her.
11:04 This post is almost 100% true except that they thought Dina was killed (because Abby completely brutalizes her to the point where any sane person would obviously assume she was dead if they didn't have the full ending to check) 11:12 This post sounds like it's simply discussing an earlier build of the game that may have had Joel gameplay, because after that Joel section (which maybe existed at some point but was cut) it starts describing the actual beginning of the game where you hang out with Dina and deal with the Jessie/Dina plotline. Keep in mind the game underwent obvious rewrites and last minute changes (it was originally indefinitely delayed, until the leaks prompted them to give it a new release date).
@@dankestmemes9843 can you comprehend what you read? no one talked about ellie. ellie is not mentioned by op at all. and brnewhouse STATED that it's NOT ellie. god damn, use that brain of yours. abby gets kidnapped by the scars and rescued/meets joel in the snowstorm. ffs
I mean a lot of things were correct because the cutscenes were real, but there is plenty that isn't. Here's the full version of the two you mention: i.imgur.com/Z0mlI9H.png This one has stuff about Ellie's Mom, Scars all immune to infection, Ellie's serephite girlfriend... www.reddit.com/r/TheLastOfUs2/comments/gdaaif/new_tlou_2_plot_leaks_most_of_what_youve_heard_is/ This one is better(but was also released later and as time went on people worked more stuff out), but all of the last bullet points are false: Lev's life is spared after making a promise to Yara. The Epilogue ends with Ellie finding the remaining members of the Fireflies. A familiar face from the Fireflies return. This will make you question everything. The game ends with a Seraphite killing Dina. This is the Cycle of Violence that never ends. Also says you only play as Abby for 4 hours, that Ellie is captured by Scars, thinks the Joel trailer conversation was real, etc.
NeverKnowsBest are you saying because some of it is false that mean they are all fault? I dont care about elie mother and shit. I care about joe got golfed and you control as his killer for half the game. Do you know the developer can also change the minor details but not the main story line? Some stuff they can just not mention and magically all of them are illegitimate? And where is the logic of a hacker? Why a hacker do it? What is the point, there are many anticipating games out there but there are no leak? It can only be personal reason for the leak. Dont believe everything the media told you. Jesus
The way the storytelling handled the change, by going up to the climax and then going "nope, not having this, lets rewind time and play the person you invested, emotionally, hours in hating", is how you loose your audience. A better way would have been to start both these stories in tandem. You don't have Ellie witness the death of Joel, but just have him go to the meeting, and she arrives to late, the group is gone.. and you set out to hunt them. At the same time you are told Abbies story. You start with her family having been killed (thus tying Abby and Ellie together on a synergetic journey), but don't make it obvious who killed them or who they were.. and you go and hunt down the perpetrators. And then at the very end you have Ellie find Abby, this is the first time the Player knows for certain she is hunting Abby and she goes "You killed Joel!" and that triggers a flashback of Abby, showing the Golfclub scene, in which she tells Joel that he murdered her parents. Its essentially the same game, but told in a fashion that you do not hate Abby, even if you do, and you have the climax of the both stories coming to a head at the same time. This is how you do this the proper way.
that's good in concept but it would be difficult to put into exciting gameplay, like the intro would have to be literally random people talking and then we hear her father died? and then cut back to the normal story with ellie? would be difficult to make that cinematic, with it being all hearsay and not an actual event we see or take part in through gameplay. the game would have to literally show everything about abby's backstory in the intro to make her story interesting, which is also a nice reverse of the intro to the first game, this time the dad dies instead of the daughter, but we would lose the mystery aspect of why she killed joel as a consequence of revealing everything in the intro. I agree though that the way her backstory should've been revealed should be more contextualized through her telling the story to some other character, rather than just randomly cutting to her story, I don't think ellie even found joel killed abby's father in the entire game
@@knurdyob You start the player out with Abby, doing a movement tutorial in which he walks around the compound and talks to people... then you have an NPC run up to her and shout "they have killed your father" and they run off together.. fade to black... and cut to Ellie, talking to her girlfriend about how Joel is out to meet this new group that showed up.. and Ellie says she has a bad feeling about it.. and goes to the meeting. She comes in and find Joel's bloody mess. You now have two revenge stories that mirror each other. Ellies will be dark and a decent into madness, she is killing dogs and you show that side by side contrasted with Abby playing with them... and since you never saw the people in the group you will not associate Abby with this... And then you surprise the Player by showing her being helped by Joel, making it clear it was in the past. It flips to Ellie and she finally catches up to the actual murderer.. and reveals that its Abby. And that is where you flash back to the torture scene with Joel. You will have a mirrored story, side by side comparison how their journeys were day and night different. It would become clear to the player that the people they interacted with were the friends and family of abby. You can, then flash back to memories that associate the pregnant woman to be a member of the group and all sort of stuff. Maybe put another chapter with Abby as she comes across the carnage Ellie left.. and that is when you flashback cutscene to put it into context. They could have done this very easily, instead of doing this hackjob of a story where they invested the audience in hating Abby for hours, instead of investing them in Abby before they reveal the reason to hate her.
@@michaelthomson5125 I did not miss the point. Its a terrible storytelling decision that makes you loose the majority of your audience. Just like any writing advice will tell you not to send your story on meaningless sidequests the audience is not invested in. People will use this game as example of how not to do it, once the hype has died down and people are rational again.
Watched Noah-Caldwells video on this game I personally have no interest in playing this game and tbh I cant but it is fascinating to see the dozens of different opinions. I am sure even Joseph Anderson is going to make a video about this game.
The Lyadhkhor Strategist Joseph anderson has stated in his discord server that there will definetly be a video after the witcher series, he gave the game “ a resounding okay”.
Joseph Anderson confirmed on his twitter that he's going to make a video. Nice to see Noah getting some love as well, although not entirely surprising--the gaming video essay sphere is fairly tight-knit. Given that Noah tends to be a little lenient in his criticisms compared to other reviewers I guess I should've expected this video to be as critical as it was. I'm glad NKB posted this because ultimately a game as polarising as this warrants another essayists perspective on it.
@54:20 you say that it's weird that Dina and Ellie have a newborn child when it's mentioned several times, including prior to Abby letting them live that she's pregnant with the, now dead guy's baby. I know you said you "can't bring yourself to explain it" but it makes out like it doesn't make sense as to why. And @55:30 you just mention she's in "this empty house" as if it's all random. It's all set up here that Dina leaves Ellie after she chooses revenge over peace. I agree the storytelling is clumsy but intentionally or not, it's not representative of the ending, .
Yep. After watching many reviews and analysis videos on the last of us part two this is officially my favourite and the most informative. thank you very much!
The problem with battlefront 2 and fallout 76 is that one had microtransactions as the only way to unlock content and the other was completely broken on release (and they’re still fixing it’s glaring issues as of right now). I just don’t think the comparison makes any sense
Hey man, never watched your videos before but I thought this was really well done, and I appreciate the contextualizing you do at the beginning to set the stage for the rest of your critique. I feel like a few years from now, when people forget about this whole situation or people who never even knew it was a thing see this, that the set-up that you do can be used as a quick history lesson to explain why this game was even controversial in the first place. Good work, and I pretty much completely agree with what you had to say.
Great summary of the user vs. critic score at the end there. Just as much as the user score is a response to the critic score, I think the critic score was influenced by the pre-release backlash over the leaks. Since that discussion was as politicized as the post-release discussion, I think some critics (who tend to be left leaning) went into the game primed to like it, because they knew the anti-SJW crowd was so up in arms. Of course, games journalists tend to give way too high scores in general so I may be talking out of my ass. RDR2 also got a lot of 10/10's and 100's even though it was a very flawed game as well.
I find it even more depressing that reading the screenshotted (and yes, incorrect, yet surprisingly thought out) storyline leaks through their entirety creates a better narrative than part2 delivered.
Great video! My main takeaway is your assessment of the repeated acts of brutality that this game tries to force upon the player, whether as a witness or as the perpetrator. For very little apparent payoff, at that. Looking at the overall story and what's left at the end I wonder why the writers wanted to do this to their characters and their world.
Great critique of a game I mostly enjoyed, but at 54:31, I'm pretty sure it was earlier implied that Jessie impregnated Dina before the events of the game started. Don't really see how its hard to explain?
It's the ridiculousness of it. I think he knows that Jessie impregnated her, but imagine explaining the full situation to someone: OK, so Ellie and Dina have a thing because they kissed in a bar and then went on patrol together and found a weed dungeon, where they hooked up. Jessie walks in on them to tell them Joel and Tommy are missing, setting the game's story in motion. The two of them then go to Seattle together where they fuck up some WLF soldiers and flirt a lot, and endure some pretty gruesome shit that would have easily killed an unborn child, such as a ~15 foot fall through a glass ceiling onto broken glass and a beating from one of the WLF side characters. Then Dina suddenly starts puking and sleeping and can't be a part of the active story anymore, magically realizing that she's pregnant, and that plot armor protected her pregnancy from previous trauma that would kill most humans, far less a fetus - though she's quickly replaced by her ex, who shows up out of nowhere and finds Ellie in the middle of a warzone in bumfuck nowhere, and he happens to be the guy who got Dina pregnant in the first place. Later on, he gets shot in the mouth and instantly dies for some reason, with Dina and Ellie both recovering from their own near deaths while having no one around to help them. Tommy is crippled forever and bleeding out on the floor, Ellie has been beaten half to death by Abby's meaty fists, and Dina is not just pregnant and sick, but also pretty badly beaten with an arrow sticking through her. Jessie is dead. Miraculously, not just the baby but the entire crew (minus Jessie, for plot reasons) survives and the baby is delivered perfectly, presumably in the middle of nowhere with no medical care whatsoever after undergoing extreme trauma within the womb. Dina and Ellie then find a farm with at least a dozen sheep shortly after the baby is born and live on it, with Jessie's baby being raised by them. Do you see the absurdity here? Yes you could oversimplify and just say Jessie got her pregnant, but you also have to explain why and how that baby was able to be born healthily in the mushroom apocalypse, which makes it absolutely ludicrous.
@@ScentSense I think you missed the point. It's because he very obviously was making it seem like Dina and Ellie just had a baby and it's never told why, even though it is. I don't mean explained as in if it makes sense for JJ to exist but rather just who gave him to Dina. 😐
@@ScentSense I was wondering why he didn't just over simplify it. It seemed like he was being dishonest just so he could take a jab at the idea of a lesbian couple having a baby, even though the game tells you why she has said baby. I wasn't looking for a long rant about how absurd it is that JJ is still alive but rather say that he exists because Jessie impregnated her and that that in it of itself is not "hard to explain".
I managed to go into this game completely blind. I missed all the spoilers, I missed all the backlash and I only saw one image with a bunch of 10/10 reviews on it. I love the first game, so I made sure I wouldn't be spoiled. I finished the game and just felt empty. And not in the sense ND was going for. Now I hate the game, but if anyone loves it, that's great, I wish that was me, but there is so much bs around this game. And no matter what ND likes to pretend, it isn't just bigots who dislike the game, and the bad reviews aren't just from people who haven't played the game. Hell, I'd argue the devs responses to any criticism of the game have been as vitriolic as the worst trolls. Not to mention the stories about how ND treated his employees. There's a reason this game is such a downgrade, it's because ND chased away all the other experienced devs at Naughty Dog and there was no one left to reign him in. Seriously, read what he had planned for the first game and how much had to be changed against his will to get a good game.
What’d he have planned for the first game? I really don’t care to look into Druckmann after everything I’ve heard of him, and the way his manipulation (key word) is even seen in the promotion of this game. Extremely annoying.
Can you elaborate on what Neil's plana were for first game? After this shit storm of a sequel I'm really interested in seeing how much he wanted to fuck the first one up too.
@@rigolith during the writing phase of the game development of tlou, Tess was supposed to be the main antagonist who follows and hunts Joel and Ellie on their trip. But after receiving feedback, Druckmann realized that the motivation for Tess's hatred to keep following them didnt hold up and he changed it so that Tess's dying wish was to have Joel escort ellie and be the motivating factor for Joel. I wish Bruce Straley was still around for the development of TLOU2 and that Neil Druckmann was still able to incorporate constructive criticism into his story. It's sad because Neil is very talented (the ending of the last of us 1 was his idea), and he could have produced something truly great in the last of us 2 if he could only accept feedback. Tlou2 is littered with glimmers of brilliance in the writing so there was potential for an amazing story. Judging by his twitter posts calling critics of TLOu2 bigots for not liking his game, neil's head has become too big for his shoulders. It's the george lucas/The last jedi effect all over again. Smh
the worst part about that, is that this Story we got, is something Neil has tried to get other studios to make before he joined ND, but they all turned him down, and somehow Neil did not get the freaking memo.
U deserve more recognition, subscribers, and views. Many times you make so much sense and deliver your points across so well, I'm like damn, wow. This really permeates into me. - Even if I haven't played the game. I feel like I understand something about it.
All the points you make that go against the narrative structure of this game, the inconsistencies, the emotional manipulations, the heavy handed themes, all of these issues have been thought over and contemplated probably dozens of times by the developers themselves. But I can promise you that nobody in that company would have spoken out about it to the director, everyone would have just nodded and smiled, put in their honest 12 hour work day and went home. When there's an ego driven director that mistreats their workers, people stop caring about the audience they're making the game for, and just do what they're told. They check out emotionally,put their head down and do the work.
You can tell the culture of the company has really changed in the last few years and it’s a huge shame. I really loved The Last of Us 1 and Uncharted 4 but I wouldn’t be surprised if people were mistreated back then either.
I agree with you 100% the culture that Neil created there was if you disagree with them in anyway they will call you a bigot and try to ruin your career so nobody speaks up and they have to leak gameplay on the D.L
Holy shit out of every single comment and statement I've ever seen regarding this game this is probably the one with the most projection. So many random assumptions in one commnent.
I completely agree with this. The way how the game condescents the player is unbearable. It feels like 14 year old trying to write a 'deep' story. Also some of the moral positions the authors take are genuinely sociopathic.
@@realcrunchy6572 tf bruh, I would rather play a game with an amazing plot that has bad mechanics that an rdr2 like game with a rubbish side story like plot, this game is rubbish and what’s basically carrying it are its mechanics, the fact that it didn’t win players choice says a lot, ghost of Tsushima is a great game with great artistic graphics and has an amazing plot, it’s mechanics may not be as great as tlou2 but it was the best game of the year
This was hands down the greatest review I have seen on this title. Non bias and completely honest. My thoughts and meditation after playing this game is the exact thoughts I had about this game and it's great to see so many think likewise. You definitely earned my respect on this one. This game definitely deserves a 7/10. It's not a masterpiece that doesn't even come close to the original but in no way is it terrible either.
Wow, not only is this an incredible critique of the TLoU Part 2, you work incredibly fast! 18 days to complete a 27 hour long game on hard, write a script, and edit an hour long video is a serious achievement! Not to mention this is one of the best videos I've seen from you. Have a break, you deserve it.
This is one of the best discussions of the game that I've seen, and unfortunately for my recommendeds, that's saying a lot. I've been so stuck in the whole "if you disagree with me, we are now enemies and you're gonna call me stupid for disliking it" mentality that I noticed myself tensing up whenever you were praising the game for anything besides its visuals. It's frustrating, especially since I want to stop thinking about it and move on. I guess that means I should stop watching hour-long videos about it, but I'm glad I watched yours. Good work, man. Gave me a lot to think about, both about the game and outside of it. I'm subscribed now, and I can't wait for whatever you have next.
Some very interesting points and the bullet stuff made me laugh. Maybe it's good luck to leave behind one bullet in a drawer. The background to the leaks was very interesting too as didn't know that (though luckily I managed to miss them before playing the game). I do have to take issue with the walking into a trap comments though. I've heard this before, but they didn't walk into a trap because it wasn't a trap. No one in Abby's group knows who they are bar Abby (and possibly Owen if she had a chance to tell him when she got back). They don't even know how near Jackson they are. Until the group hears their names, Tommy and Joel are just two locals who brought their friend back. Everyone is grateful for that and genuinely friendly. When Mel shakes Tommy's hand and introduces herself she means it. No one is trying to trick them and they were not being lured into the room. They come out of the snowstorm, leave their horses in the garage and literally walk into the next room. If you look at the whole series of events, the only mistake they made was missing a scared teenage girl's reaction when Tommy told her their names and not realising Abby's true intention for getting them to come back to the lodge. Given a horde of infected were breaking in, they were pretty distracted and had very little choice but to go along with her plan anyway.
Beautiful review, thoroughly enjoyed your insights. The thing i didnt like most about this game was how it tried to change how people couldve felt at the end of the 1st one. The ambiguity was lost and was changed to be "Clearly he made a selfish decision".
I don't believe a hacker being the source of the leaks. Of course they are not going to admit it was a disgruntled employee because if it was it would confirm the abuse their employees face. All of a sudden, because it wasn't an employee the crush isn't real.
Honestly, does it REALLY matter? Everyone knows that there's been some conflict between the developers and their workload during this game. Whether or not someone internally leaked everything or it was an outside source is irrelevant at this point.
Really now, at this point I just roll my eyes when someone blame the "hacker" at incidents like this. They cried wolf far too many times in the past that this reasoning sounds like a joke now. And when I think about it, what would the hacker even gain from leaking this? Ah yes it's just another one of those "hackers" snooping into the dev servers again ha ha, but none of them leaked anything about I don't know... how about another game that people are hyped about? How about Elden Ring? People been dying to get some juicy info, but where's the hackers leaking stuff about it hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm?
@@franjaff6919 A hacker releases the random stuff they find. This leak was calculated to show lots of really bad stuff that players would have never seen coming and would never have accepted AND obscure the actual ending. This was 1000% internal.
@@sportsjefe This doesn't change my point. It's irrelevant. Hacker, leaker, partner of an employee, Neil Druckmann's dog.... What's important is that the game leaked.
fran jaff I get your point, but source of the hackers raiding the server narrative is the same game journos that gave the game 10/10. I’m just surprised they didn’t bring Putin and Russia into the narrative. So, I would’ve have preferred the review just saying the game leaked somehow as opposed to seem to side with the journos. Just my two cents.
That was a neat insight. A thing to note - "the more they want you to feel specific way the bigger disconnect" was something I felt when playing spec ops the line. I kinda understand how people hating TLOU2 feel, since I felt similiar after finishing spec ops.
Spec Ops the Line ruined itself for me when a loading screen asked "How many Americans have you killed?". They thought the player should only care about killing Americans.
@@thomaskirkness-little5809 no, it didn't. The games makes you kill people from a different nationality under the guise of blind patriotism "make your country proud, disposable soldier!" And then, as to show how retarded the concept of "patriotism" is as an excuse, it gets you killing Americans as well. That line you so painfully misread is basically the game teasing the player character with something along the lines of "And now? After all this, is that still your excuse?" I swear, everyone who says they fully understand SPTL and TLOU2 and still found them dumb are those who got 50% of the message and then, instead of analyzing what they saw, simply assume that was all it had. I do believe there really exist those who got it all and still found it dumb but I just am yet to find them.
@@Th0tSlAyErIII That's cute, but I'm not American and have no bigger issue with American deaths than any other nationality. That's why the line failed. It made the whole thing comical. I already cared about the civilians, and it tried to imply I should care about the soldiers. Don't jump to silly conclusions, or make stupid excuses.
@@thomaskirkness-little5809 I'm not american either. THE CHARACTER IS!!! When I say "you", I mean you, the player who's playing as the Patriotic killer. Is that such a foreign concept to you? And it wasn't trying to make you care for anyone. It's aim was to show how stupid patriotism and war really are (with a bit of meta commentary on fans of shooters sprinkled on the side). You're the sumbitch who's jumping into stupid conclusions.
The problem with games that focus on being emotionally resonant more than anything else, is the moment you put any thought into them they fall apart. So you have a group who don't care about the why's or hows who love it and group who do care that hate it, and very little in-between
This is fair, level-headed and I'm sure articulates the frustrations many players felt. It'll never catch on. Your thoughts on the user scores are excellent as well. When critics/journalists point-blank refuse to do their jobs then the frustration of the public will find an outlet (this holds true for games, movies, sports and politics). It's strange to get labelled a bigot and a troll for pointing out poor writing, pacing and storytelling. You know...the very basic things you'd expect the critics to be experts in critiquing and relaying to the public. I think they know they screwed up on this one, they know they oversold and refused to review this thoroughly. But instead of admitting this they double down and spit the dummy. Blue ticks. They were a mistake, eh?
Thanks for the great review (as always). Also, talking about the gameplay, I've seen many reviews talk about various aspects of the game difficulty while seemingly having missed the entire *custom* settings in the game; which has dedicated sliders for the 'player, enemies, allies, stealth, and resources' enabling you to tailor-make the game to your liking. You can basically set how more-less resources you'd like to find or how perceptive enemies become in the game. I wonder how much you experimented with those settings but from what I saw you can pretty much make your own well-suited difficulty; although it's understandable not that many people would want to go to those lengths. p.s. Oh, and the quote from Super Bunnyhop at 1:07:07 from the MGS5 was exactly what came to my mind when I finished the game and compared it to the journalists' reviews. Very fitting.
This review was extremely eloquently stated, as usual. I really appreciated the manner in which you legitimized the various reactions people had to the game. I think the manner in which the gaming media has attempted to disregard the negative user feedback is similar to the coverage of the 2016 Ghostbusters film, in which Sony deliberately tried to magnify the negative response of a misogynistic minority as a means of shielding the film from legitimate criticism and politically emboldening others in the media/ public into championing a poorly made reboot as a means of combating an adversary that in reality was miniscule and irrelevant.
In order to maximize profits*. People’s opinions of the product don’t matter, the product itself doesn’t matter. All that matters is that it makes profit.
I believe it's about time we don't listen to a large company reviewer since they are intolerant and does not accept negative feedback because most likely it is manipulated by greed...
I would agree with this comment but when the game came out metacritic was bombarded with negative reviews, without having even downloading the game. I’m not saying people hat the game because of woman or sexual preferences, but the game did get unwarranted hate without ever giving the game a chance.
@@LLAMAWILDBILL [NeverKnowsBest] already mentioned this didn't he? A lot of the negative reviews comes when the positive reviews are just plain lies. Deceptive and manipulative. The critics lied with positive feedback and the other consumers bombed it with negative feedback. Perfectly balanced. I won't deny that the game doesn't get unwarranted hate but a lot of the people who hated the game in some way are passionate about the game. Some trolls are out there, sure but the majority are just passionate gamers.
Finally someone who tries to be honest, level headed and objective about this game, its not all bad and is not all good, its a middle of the road stuning looking mess of a decent game, a solid 7. Good video sir.
@Unfiltered Reality i agree; whats even worst is that you can see a better outline for the narrative in all the bad in this game; how this cast of characters could have work, how the events in the game could have played out and even how the ending could have been better, and it just bummes you out.
Fextralife's review I thought was well balanced as well. Although he avoided tackling contraversy as much as possible. Gained immense repect for these two as reviewers
Did not felt forced to feel bad as a player doing these ''forced'' actions. I felt miserable for Ellie because of her obsession. I guess we have differant visions on how as players we connect with the characters we play. I would feel bad to do bad choices in mass effect for example since the choices are really ours. But in TLOU, the characters are pre-wrote. They are who they are and I am just a spectator placed in their eyes. It can just feel weird because we actually play the character. Anyway thats my view of that particular point. Great critique my dude!
18:30 These points about the wider environments make the looting mechanics more problematic, because they're so limited. The first game had a certain rock paper scissors elegance. They should have thought more about expanding the crafting elements. Or expanding on how your character inventory works. It would have made exploration a lot more rewarding.
44:40 Abby's father is portrayed as a hypocrite, not perfect. he straight up dodges the question when asked if he's do it to Abby. Also Abby saying she'd want him to do it is no different than Ellie.
He was portrayed as more "perfect" than hypocritical because what he was doing was going to "save humanity". He probably dodges the question because it would've been too difficult to talk about it emotionally and morally given that the situation at hand was completely different.
That question doesn't matter if you ask any person in a position of leadership to sacrifice one girl to save people lives they would do it without question. "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few". Imagine that a doctor nowdays with the same problem sacrifice one girl to save people from Coronavirus and change the state of the world and fear from going outside.
I think the point of their delivery was to show her fathers love for life, but also showing how life has changed him in the post apocalyptic world. He’s not perfect. He’s human. I love animals. I’ll feed stray cats and adopt dogs, but when it comes to humans I’m fine with seeing one dead or hungry, because that’s just humans are. There’s people who love their dogs more than their family, so don’t think that simple fact affects his morality scale.
Wait does that guy thing that any doctor today would kill a kid to cure the coronavirus? Like, that's super illegal and that doctor would be brought up before a board of ethics and have their license revoked. They would never practice medicine again. Not to mention the study, the peer review, and the legal consultation that would be necessary just to allow a kid to, like, donate a kidney or something, if it could help cure the virus. And if they *chose* to.
TLOU 2 has constantly been on my mind since I finished it. I still struggle to come to terms with what happened in this game, but I think this video helped a lot. Ultimatly, I just really wish I hadn't played this game, it left me with a very persistent and lingering sense of bitterness. Forcing me to witness the torturing/killing of Joel and especially Ellie's ending were just too much for me to stomach. (As you said, the fingers were so over the top. I couldn't laugh about it though.) Also, thumbs up for taking the time to talk about the gameplay, it gets ignored way too often when it comes to TLOU2. Edit: For those interested, I've since changed my opinion about the game to be more positive. It has been on my mind and I couldn't let go, so I played it a second time on survivor difficulty (which resolved the balancing issues around looting for me). Knowing that Joel´s death was coming, it wasn't that devastating the second time around, and I didn't feel this immense rage against Abby that drove me to almost speed through the first playthrough, which allowed me to understand the character in a way I couldn't before. I now truly believe there is a masterpiece to be found in TLOU2 - and I am glad I played the game. For those willing to give the game a second chance I recommend you do. Let the dust settle and go into it with "eyes unclouded by hate".
i admire you for being able to play it a second time. however, i cannot get over the feeling that i got fipped off by naughty dog by having to play a stupid amount of time as Joels killer with them desperately trying to make her likable. if you wanna do that, dont start a character of by letting her kill my favourite character in the first 2 hours of your game. any part i had to play as abby i hated it, i let her die numerous times on purpose and was disgusted having to beat up ellie near the end. thats not deep storytelling, its a slap in the face for fans of the characters
This is one of the best video game critiques I've ever listened to. I especially loved how you compared listening to user reviews to seeing the other side of TLoU 2's story.
Thank you for pointing out the in-your-face-ness of the emotional hooks. None of the game critique so far has touched upon this. The cheap manipulation is.. not very artistic, lets say. And this indeed truly feels like something that was behind the people's response.
@livebreathmma It really depends on the story and presentation. The original Star Wars series is a pretty basic good vs. evil story that is generally viewed favorably by most, and I'd certainly say it has cemented itself as one of the greatest movies of all time. Part of why it works is it wasn't trying to be anything more complex. It set out to be a pretty straightforward story and succeeded at that. The first game worked well because it wanted to tell a darker story that made you think about what the characters were doing and whether their actions were right/wrong, and the storytelling fit that much better. The second feels like it was trying to one up the first, likely because of the praise the original received, and that's where the heavy handed complaint comes in. Instead of trying to naturally create moments that resonate with the player, it goes too far in forcing an emotion, so much so that it takes you out of the narrative and reminds you that you're watching a scripted scene unfold, vs. being so immersed you're solely focused on the story and not thinking about the quality of the writing because you just want to see what happens next. On paper, I think a lot of the ideas were good, but they fell apart on execution, again because of the heavy handed nature of the storytelling and trying too hard to either force a certain reaction, especially when getting said reaction also forces the story to bend over to get that way in the first place. It's strange to me that you bring up being pretentious/elitist in regards to the people who don't like it, since I think the "heavy handed" complaint is really saying that the game itself is being too pretentious with the storytelling, and arguably, pretty edgy itself with the over reliance on "dark" storytelling to illicit a response. It's equally confusing too given this video, which I thought did a fantastic job spelling out what did/didn't work, and still gave the game a pretty high rating overall. It's cool if you enjoyed it. You're certainly entitled to your opinion and nobody can take that away from you, but if you're trying to have an actual discussion about the quality of the game, simply dismissing the criticism/insulting anyone who offers it only to say that the game is great with no further explanation doesn't add much to the conversation. Again, it's a point covered very well in this very video, rightly pointing out that both the overly negative and overly positive reviews really weren't doing either "side" any favors, and just made it difficult for people who were actually looking for more legitimate information/discussion.
@livebreathmma it's funny how you call people hateful shills and then proceed to write a hateful comment filled with ad hominems about the people who critique the game. this video explains very well and eloquently what he means by heavy handed, but i guess he's just a pretentious wannabe elitist prick. people like you are just as bad as the people who hate this game for no reason. most of the people who critiqued this game were very fair in their assessment and explained very well what problems the game has. as a side note some of the people who worked on this game and love this game acted very much like elitist pricks and self-important when they compared this game with shindler's list and people who dislike the game with a-pack--a day smokers or right-wing nutters.
Liana K is a former games writer who's been pointing out Last of Us II's manipulations in a good amount of her videos. And her twitch playthrough hasn't even reached Abby yet. th-cam.com/video/Q97ghFXRoA0/w-d-xo.html
You didn't mention that while we are at their base, we can clearly see what kind of people they are. Many cells with all kinds of people not only scars. This made clear to me what kind of people they are. Abby feels good when she is torturing people. She's been doing it for years. So I don't feel bad for them. You did a great analysis.
Yeah I’m like what world do the writers live in? Because it certainly isn’t 2020/2021, where forgiveness and understanding that humans are imperfect is completely absent
@Huge FX Abby lost everyone she cared about, and was forced into slavery and starved to the point where she didn’t even resemble her former self. Wtf are you taking about?
This is a pretty solid critique, but I do feel like there's some oversight around 37:10. Abby isn't jacked for no reason, it's a reflection of her drive to get Joel, which is why it's an aspect to her physique that increased gradually since the death of her father. It is clarified pretty early in her main sequence and made textual by the gym equipment at the stadium (Edit: this is also something that you see traces of with Ellie towards the end, where she wears vests too and looks like she's been working out)
It's also referenced in her flashbacks with Owen: she doesn't want to miss training. She says it like six times. This subtlety was apparently lost on some folks.
I think NeverKnowsBest just meant that it's unrealistic for someone to look like that because it not only takes a lot of training but also good nutrition. Which in a post-apocalyptic world might be hard to come by.
I'm sorry but this "reason" is just pathetic. Just because you train every day doesn't mean you get that type of physic. Do you know how much food and protin you need to keep this type of body? In this world this isn't very logical
@@mauriceraat2781 I'm not sure that totally tracks, though? Never putting it down to it being a subjective "someone on the team was probably hot for this because there's no justification for it" doesn't really imply that. If that was the intent, then why wouldn't you extend that to how most the characters have reasonable skincare and haircuts where it doesn't make sense for them to? It's at the very least a point that's a little underexamined
I think they wanted a different kind of character model for diversity, but it comes off as kind of unrealistic. It’s what makes players focus on when they see Abby which just leaves room for loads of memes etc, rather than “wow, what a diverse set of characters”.
31:50 That character's death was done in the traditional tragedy method of the characters own flaws catching up with them. That character was honest and honorable in a dishonest and pragmatic world, it is in no way equivocal to Joel's death which was against his character and how he acted in the world around him
If people want to cite a game that does what TLOU2 is trying to do more effectively, just play MGS3. The ending to that game forces the player to pull the trigger, but frames it as a necessary act; it evokes sadness in the player but doesn't make them feel like the game is TRYING to make them sad. Everything going on has proper narrative weight and context. You don't constantly cut to The Boss or Snake doing some other thing several years prior. You barely see The Boss at all, but you still *feel* the sadness of having to pull that trigger.
@@someguy3263 thats why I've always told guys like u to play the game before passing comments. She might have interrogated him during torture but ellie came up and owen told abby that yu know what i wanted but Owen told abby to finish it now before whole town comes up. Now this makes sense but i think theres alot of people with alot assumptions out there. Urggg 🙄
@@kabirahmed5495 "but i think theres alot of people with alot assumptions out there." Dude, your entire comment was a huge assumption. Also, beating someone on the head is not a way of getting info out of anyone. It's more likely to cause brain damage preventing you from getting the information.
The reason I can't like Abby is because she gets revenge for someone who is willing kill a child. Great video though, glad there's some sort of nuance in the discussion of this game.
The first game puts a moral dilemma: is it worth it to kill a child in order to save humanity? If you decided it one way, it doesn't mean that people who took the other option are wrong.
If I remember correctly its stated that the fireflies had tried it before with other people and failed, so there was no guarantee that killing Ellie would've worked.
My thoughts exactly when playing this game, and that last 5 minutes is the perfect summary. Excellent video.
damn, the man himself
@Helios Sphere u
@@Whitelight Is this a mega crossover?
@@Whitelight What's your next video King?
did not expect see these two legends in the comments
it also seems bizarre and out of character for Ellie to not have looted that PS Vita. She's been collecting those cards the whole game. She loves her cassette player. She would have loved playing Hotline Miami on that thing!
She had to get to somebody in the Hospital before they left, the game was the farthest thing on her mind.
@@InfamousJJ420 yet right after he kills the girl with the PS Vita, you can loot one of those trading cards literally in the same room… She apparently has time for that
Terry Lee Yes, it’s a collectible. It can be picked up and forgotten about in 2 seconds.
@@InfamousJJ420 so can the PS vita you can play it later.
@@InfamousJJ420 you must be fun at parties..
@20:30 - You see, it's not very well known abroad but in the United States we do have groves and orchards of Bullet Bushes, Shell Moss, and Round Vines. It takes a while before you can actually harvest ammunition, but you know how it is with video games. Nobody wants to play a game where you plant a bullet and wait 2 years to harvest a fully matured bush.
I understand the USA much better now, thank you.
makes sense
And how does americans get guns then ?
@@zascoco6617 Trees.
@@Wakayams
common misconcption. guns are kinda like tubers. think potatoes
I don't understand why games like these never thought of separating bullets from magazines?
It would allow you to stock up on bullets, while still limiting you to 2-3 clips per fight, which you would then have to reload out of combat. It would also add some depth to the combat itself,having you choose between pistols and assault rifles with high fire rate and reload speed, but limited by the number of clips and bullets you have in each of them; and something like revolvers or shotguns, that shoot a lot slower but you can reload anytime.
I feel this, so fucking hard.
I’m one of those gun-freaks, and it always tugs me the wrong way when I see a character use the *same exact damn mag* when they reload. Have these people never used guns before?
Swat 4 had realistic magazines instead of magically rearranging the bullets when removing a partially empty magazine. Insurgency took it further by removing the ability to see the bullets in your magazine. I think Squad and Escape From Tarkov have it too. And then Solid Snake had unlimited empty mags.
@@deadrivers2267 Talking specifically about survival-horror, or scavenging based games. In fast paced shooters the standard unlimited mag mechanic is ok, in my opinion.
well if you're going to go that route why even use guns at all? It's been like 25 years since the infection hit. Would there even be any bullets left anywhere? Why are there still supplies to be found in hospitals? Wouldn't those places get cleaned out first? Why is there still food in vending machines?
@@movieswithmatticus5469
You can make bullets, and all their components, out of common household (or at least, any decent mechanic's shop) items and tools. Its not an easy process, and they certainly wouldn't be as good as ammo made in a factory, but any decently-sized community would have the resources and people to support at least a small ammo-making workshop.
The firearms industry is actually one of the few American industries that would be barely affected if global society collapsed. The vast majority of American guns and ammo are made by Americans, out of American raw materials, using American know-how and tools.
As for your other points, completely fair. The only reasonable explanation I can think of is that another scavenger left it there (and presumably died).
Tbh, I never felt bad for killing the Wolves as Ellie. They have orders to kill anyone on sight regardless of who they are. Why should I feel bad for killing people who are trying to kill me?
I don't think the game is trying to make you feel bad for killing these people... the gamers are exaggerating saying "the game tries so hard making you feel bad for what you do" and it's not what I felt while I was killing these people, I was having fun instead and guess what? The game didn't fall for me.
Everyone thinks they can read the minds of the writers and bla bla bla, it's like they're forcing themselves to not like the game for ANY reason.
Alejandro Alvarado Nah it felt like they were tryin to make me feel bad. Especially looking at the message this game’s story is tryin to hammer away. The idea that everyone you kill is a human being with their own story and whatnot. I personally don’t care either way. I actually liked that they called each other’s names and screamed initially. I thought it was a nice touch, but it just got more comical than anything. Especially when names were being recycled. Lol. I’m just making the point that giving random NPC’s names doesn’t all of sudden make them anything more than a random NPC.
@@alejandroalvarado3409 every time you get a kill oh no my friend bill
@@Don11037 so what?
@@alejandroalvarado3409 it's over the top
TLOU2 taught me one thing: leave no survivors.
@@rayromano6249 noticed how no one liked your comment
@@rayromano6249 whatever helps you sleep at night
Way to get butthurt idiot
TLOU2 taught me one thing: no russian
@@rayromano6249 get ratioed
@@rayromano6249 please just don't
I spent the whole latter half of the game thinking that the final twist was that Abby is immune TOO... so her sainted father could have prevented all of this had he only been willing to operate on his own daughter. If he had made the sacrifice Joel couldn't.
That's actually a brilliant twist
That would have been crazy-amazing!!! 😲
wish they'd have hired you, that wouldve indeed been great and shown the hipocricy of humans breaking their own rules when something valuable to them is on the line
That would have been so cool man.
I’m not defending the game and this is certainly a cool idea, I thought this might be the case as well in my first play through but it’s a little predictable or cliché. It’s one of those twists that’s cool at first but it doesn’t do anything else other than be a twist for the sake of a twist. Most of all it undermines Ellie’s importance in being immune.
Empty ending is exactly how I felt at the end. I didn’t learn some profound lesson about anger and revenge, there was zero redemption for any of the main characters, and after awhile I didn’t even feel sad, I just felt... empty
@@rayromano6249 no lol
@@rayromano6249 no lol. unless youre 15 there is nothing deep or profound or genius about tlou2. its basic pop psychology tropes like "violence is bad mkay" wrapped in a shitty 3ps shooter that doesnt innovate its core gameplay loop at all. "violence begets violence." lol deep bro. you act like that isnt literally the most tired cliche around. shitty writing and lazy mechanics marketed to people who keep buying the same trite crap.
@@rayromano6249 You don't get a choice with the doctors at the end of TLOU 1. It's clear you didn't even play the game and are trolling.
@@rayromano6249 dude I read your response. You literally said things that were untrue.
i was just glad neither of them died
People talking bout how ellie kills the dogs as if it was them, they'd just let the dog eat them. 😐
Vegans maybe
@@ravenwhiteduck3158 lol
I think the issue most people have is how ham fisted the comparison is delivered to the player. You have several moments of sweet interactions with Alice (Abby's dog) as Abby, and then as Ellie, multiple instances where you have to brutally end a dog's life. It feels like they're trying to distance you from Ellie, and empathize more with Abby, and it feels like you can see the strings trying to pull you in that direction. It doesn't come across naturally.
@@KlaelDemon Yeah but does that not make sense, if this scenario was in real life? Dogs make amazing trackers you would be dumb not to use them in a zombie world, humans would build their own separate tribes, those dogs obviously will form bonds with people of those tribes, you are not one of them, so of course the dog is going to try to tear you to pieces, and of course the dog is going to act friendly to the humans who raised them. They want to chew your throat open because you are not their human.
But yes despite all that I completely understand what you're saying, I just think it's a bit silly when people hint to not liking how depressing it is, when the first game was just as depressing... (you literally watch your little daughter die within 15 mins of the game, killed by just some guy doing his job, he even apologies but it's his orders)
it's a zombie outbreak, it's not going to be flowers and daisies yanno?
@@Spicy_Spores to be fair can dogs actually rip your throat out like that?
Wait, wtf? Abby's supposed to be 18?! _Younger_ than Ellie?! I thought she was almost 30!
I don't know if the game explicitly explains her age at any point, but I'd guess that she is meant to be in her early twenties in the present plot strand. She seems clearly older than Ellie was at the time in the '4 Years Ago' flashback, maybe around 18.
@@globalistgamer6418
Yeah, the devs said she's in her mid 20's. I knew that couldn't be right.
I guessed that she was around 27
So she basically slaughtered a younger girl's father in front of her eyes for "justice". Good 2 know.
@@taeminislove I mean Joel did kill her father...
The Abby story was way too long, making Ellie's side far too short.
And throughout the whole game, you kill how many as Ellie and Abby, I don't see why Abby get a pass
Abby got a pass because ND wanted to make more games featuring Abby. They thought they were making a beloved character lmfaooo
It's not about heros and villains, it's about perspectives and what can happen if you let vengeance consume your life.
@danimalcollective1 I can understand that but, if you still think the story is revolving around the hero/villain dichotomy, you should look deeper. Check out this video analysis. th-cam.com/video/7sTxmRTlIW8/w-d-xo.html Maybe it can help you see it differently? If nothing else you might see the intentions of the writing and story telling. I agree the game is not perfect but, I don't think it should be lambasted like it has been by many.
danimalcollective1 I feel you with the rattlers thing. But neither Abby nor Ellie is the hero. Or the villain. Or maybe they’re both villains and think they’re the hero? It’s not hero v villain. It was showing the revenge cycle at two different stages. Ellie was everything leading up to the revenge. Abby was mainly dealing with the hollow feeling revenge gives you (her facial expression and nightmares) and finding purpose. Neither had happy endings. It was just showing two ppl with the same obsession try to overcome it at different points.
This game is Abby’s redemption, saving lev and yara, Abby doesn’t get a pass, but she already have to live with the guilt of killing Joel that way
When kratos in god of war 2016 said "There are consequences to killing a god." he was really talking about Joel.
Hentai Hero
Abby: “What would you know?”
LOL. Joel is a selfish human. That's just about it.
Marvelous Meh False.
@@marvelousmeh2077 We are just selfish humans when you think about it.
You mean 2018?
'But I've spent 28 years not listening to my better judgement so I figure, why start now?' Beautifully put my friend.
Mood
Gotta say, that was a bizarre and superficial take on Abby and her design.
Basically, good video up until you cover Abby and her story and then you just fall back on a reading so superficial it pretty much misrepresents what’s written.
What a shame.
@@ineptwizzard what's deep about her?
Everyone needs to leave the dog thing alone if a German Shepard was coming for me I’m blowing it’s head off
fuckin e d g y, bro
It's difficult to think of something _less_ edgy than that, tbh. If anything, I'd call "I would defend myself" normcore.
You want to be edgy these days, you gotta say shit either like "I would never defend myself under any circumstances, if you defend yourself you go to Hell" or like "I would annihilate everyone on earth before I suffer even a moment of inconvenience. I will personally kill everyone preemptively"
Absolutely no questions asked
People really think dogs are cuddly teddy bears when they want to fucking kill something.
Lml true, it's get mauled by a fucking dog after you've survived for years, or kill it
The big shame about TLOU2 is that it feels preachy when the first one didn't. The first game presented the characters and events in aneutral light and asked you to judge them for yourself. TLOU2 desperately tries to convince you of it's message, of it's themes. That it's views are true and good and you must see the light. That doesn't work for me at all. A phrase people have been passing around is that it's "a game about right and wrong made by people who always think they are right" and I can't help but agree.
It is the last of us world not uncharted whery every thing remains the same.
@@kabirahmed5495
It's still preachy... It's like they want to spread a religion that *they* think is the right one and everything else is bad.
(Not a great example...) You get what I mean... You were told by them to "how to think" or "how to feel" or even "what to feel" as if we're not human with thoughts, emotions and conscience.
Edited :
After arguing with some people, I thought I'd left this here. I'm not against LGBTQ+ because of anything. I pointed out that this topic of "agenda" seems preachy. That's all. Don't get all offended and call people names. Be civil. If you can that is...
"At the end of the day, opinions are like buttholes. Everybody has them."
-SomeOrdinaryGamer
Everybody will have opinions and you're welcome to express it. If you can't afford to be civil then at least be reasonable. If you can't do both then I suggest you leave since you will not be taken kindly by most people and that will only hurt you more than anything else.
@@kabirahmed5495 what does uncharted have to do with the trashy and condescending narrative of the last of us 2? is ur comment supposed to have a point?
@@Asriel_Cypher quite a bad example when the ennemy in the game are that crazy religious culte.
But i get what you mean.
@@Asriel_Cypher That's basically leftist ideology. Destroy the past to make way for their utopia which you HAVE to believe is the 'enlightened path'
perfectly sums up the issues with the game while pointing out what it did right. the game suffers a lot from ludonarrative dissonance and poor character verisimilitudes
Thanks for your post, I looked up those terms and learned something new.
Lots of big words
*Ludonarrative dissonance* is the conflict between a video game's narrative told through the story and the narrative told through the gameplay.
*verisimilitude* is the quality of resembling reality. A work of art, or any part of a work of art, has verisimilitude if it seems realistic.
Coming to this a year later and having digested an absurd amount of analysis of this game, everyone seems to say the same thing in very different ways. Ultimately, that it disregards its existence as a game in order to tell a story how it wants, and the inability to reconcile with it's own medium led to all these problems. Here's two things to aid that point.
1: It's trying to address "cycles of violence" in games without ever implicating the player, as was done in Spec Ops, Undertale and Hotline Miami. Everyone seems to bring up that torture scene you aren't involved in beyond a single button press.
2: Telling a story out of order doesn't work when it's an absolute necessity to guide the player through. If all the framing doesn't justify Ellie's revenge quest till the last few moments, then what the hell is the point of the whole thing?
In the long run, the one positive analysis I did see, had clearly divorced the medium it's supposed to be in from the medium it wants to, and viewed it as the latter. Even then they didn't come away thinking either of the two entries were worth the fuss.
”Everyone seems to say the same thing in very different ways” What are you talking about? This game is one of the most polarizing games ever made, it’s pretty much a 50/50 split on who likes it and who doesn’t. There are hundreds of videos praising the game while still being unbiased and acknowledging its issues. Maybe you have just watched the negative comments and videos.
@@goleer6694I think you've completely misread his statememt.
"Everyone seems to say the same thing in very different ways"
Isn't implying universal acclaim nor disdain.
It's implying that the very reason people like the game is the same reason why others hate it.
25:06 pretty sure this is explained in lore.
Runners are constantly in a battle with the cordecepys, which is why they’re sitting there constantly writhing around
Dude, it 100% is in the lore. I made a comment earlier just mentioning he also has misinformation in the video while speaking about misinformation.
I get there is a lot to cover about the last of us, but just take notes. It helps get good points across when comparing both games as well as the comments.
Also, the whistling that the Seraphites ("scars" is a slur) use is a communication technique. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whistled_language
This vid unfortunately makes it seem like it's a stupid idea to whistle to your allies in combat, but makes no mention of the enemies who shout their plans in English.
@@harlyjones3140 lmao good points.
I think the part that everyone is missing isn't "if it's explained" but "why is this incorporated into gameplay" and he approaches that question quite well. Like in the other example of whistling, I haven't played it but it didn't seem like those whistles actually effectively made the AI more dangerous, forcing you to change your strategy or trick your enemy. I could be wrong, but if I am I don't see why anyone's not saying "actually, these things exist in gameplay for x reason" rather than "well we understand what's causing it or why it exists so what's the problem?"
Good critics focus on the interaction of story and gameplay when evaluating games, and whether or not it's done well and with purpose. Just because this mechanic has purpose, is it done well? These are the mechanical questions that separate TLOS and other naughty dog games from movies -- and why movie buffs will probably like it more than gamers who aren't big movie fans.
@@connorrichard9851 Oh!
I can correct this for you dude, I've finished the game. 😃
Honestly I love discussions about topics such as the difference between movies and games but 'lll get right to it!
The whistling shows a form of communication as well as the separation between the different factions (as well as infected) in relation to communication.
The whistling does influence the way the player can play, as the whistling is a clear indication of not only which faction you are fighting, but how quick the AI (of the scars/seraphites) will respond to situations.
They in particular can be very stealthy and will mask themselves like the way you as the player can in tall grass and when they do this and whistle, the whistle echoes, so you as the player can't tell where it's coming from while being shot by arrows.
Hope this helps! 🙂
My issues are with critics felating themselves with how they're too smart for you to understand the "depth" of the game's story. The divide of condescension and strawmen arguments masking glaring issues of employees being abused by their ego driven employer being showered in praise for potentially sabotaging their relationship with customers and ruining one of their biggest franchises. Neil shows no remorse for forcing his employees to endure so much pain only to have that effort fall on deaf ears. Technically it's amazing but it's tainted by a preachy self important story which was outshined by fucking Black Ops 2 of all games. I lost respect for Naughty Dog when they showed how little they care about their employees. They grandstand about being so progressive but when it comes to ethically treating their workers it shows their true colors. Fuck this game and fuck Naughty Dog. Give your employees that bonus which they rightfully earned ND
You understand every AAA game is produced by abusing workers and crunch right? You're not even wrong, just keep that same energy with games you love produced under the same conditions. It's pretty much every AAA game you will ever play.
I'm not defending naughty dog, and I've never even played this game. I just keep seeing people with this energy over a game they have a grudge over, and then put the blindfold on to go play the rest of their favorite AAA games.
@@leftovernoise - Well said 😒💯
Don't forget he pushed Amy Hennig, one of the most influential women in the gaming industry who is someone to look up to, so he could uplift fake women in Uncharted 4.
Druckmann is an Israeli sheister. It amazes me that people didn’t see this coming.
37:42 - Part of the leaked info about the game was that it featured a trans character. Many people then incorrectly assumed this character was Abby, and I think her very muscular physique contributed to this assumption that she was a male-to-female trans character. To people who take any kind of inclusion of LGBTQ characters as 'political', this is probably what they meant.
I took her physique to be a representation of how much effort she has been putting in to training herself physically in preparation to go out and get her revenge - i.e. it is a physical representation of her focus and determination. But I agree that it's not actually a good design given both how distracting it is, and how unrealistic given that food is presumably relatively scarce in this setting.
Good video as always but why is this 54:28 hard to explain? She got pregnant with a guy she meet before Eli that's now dead. Why is that weird?
Yeah, I was a little confused when he said that too. I think he probably just forgot cause there was so much stuff to cover. 🤷🏽♀️
I thought it was Jesse's kid.
Right? Like what is so hard about that to explain? Eli’s girlfriend and best friend were dating before all this and they got pregnant. Pretty easy explanation lmao
Yeah I had the same thought, pretty easy explanation...
To be fair though this entire video is extremly nitpicky.
I definitely appreciate this entire analysis, even though I really enjoyed the game. Just speaking to one of your points about the Scars faction - they call themselves Seraphites. "Scars" is the derogatory name that WLFs use for them. It's made as a point to stop referring to them as Scars when Lev repeatedly corrects Abby, and she eventually corrects herself when talking about them.
Also in my playthorugh, Seraphites did call out each other's names in combat. But, I also agree that as a whole they were portrayed as a surface-level, indoctrinated "evil" faction.
And one more thing - I found the little asides in scattered notes about a supposed "truce" between the Seraphites and WLF, where it's unclear which side broke the truce and began all the fighting again. Both sides believe the other caused all the violence. According to Lev, what the Seraphites want is for the fighting to stop, to which Abby says something like "Sure.." Abby later finds written Seraphite "prayers" that are optional to read, and there she kind of sees their wants and motives on a more human level.
It was clear to me neither group is evil and both also kind of are.
WLF are super messed up. Isaac and his cronies capture and torture Seraphites while Seraphites do the same to the WLF.
They radicalise each other.
It's basically a macro version of the micro conflict happening between Ellie and Abby.
I thought it was quite well done actually but this guy seems to have missed the point here.
To be fair, he missed the point of most of the game too, so I'm not that surprised.
@@99RedRedfake "he missed the point of most of the game too". Which is???
That vengeance is futile and that it can turn a person into a monster???
@@p.s6742 Its about the cycle of violence, and how those who participate in it are doomed to repeat it. Its about selfishness. Its about a lot of stuff. Also, The Seraphites and WLF are an allegory to the Jews and Palestinians.
@@evanwestendorf9667 *Also, The Seraphites and WLF are an allegory to the Jews and Palestinians.* What???
@@p.s6742 Druckman came out and said in an interview that he was heavily influenced by the violence between Israelis and Palestinians at Gaza and the West Bank. It is another example of never ending suffering and conflict, along with Ellie and Abbys revenge plots and the suffering they cause, built into the game to push those themes. The Seraphites and WLF are an allegory to that whole conflict - even in the post apocolypse where everything is already fucked, youd have some religious zealots fighting over land against a more heavily fortified and powerful militant group, that pushes them onto their own island. The WLF would obviously crush them and has Seattle on lock, and all the Seraphites have are small pockets of terrorism, but the WLF then show up and storm the island and murder all of them in the middle of the night anyhow.
They could have fixed this game really easily. With a single change. Instead of Joel and Tommy saving Abby, it should have been Ellie. Then you play as Ellie and Abby throughout the game, and only later find out who Abby is and what she's after. THAT would have made Abby likeable. THAT would have given the player an actual dilemma. Instead, they try to forcefully manipulate you, showing Abby playing with dogs while Ellie mercilessly murders them.
I totally agree with you.
Nope that would be probably failed becuase then how joel getting caught by abby would be justified having 25 years of surviving experience. That co-incidence meet up with alot of zombies after them makes sense that joel get caught up by them.
ellie save abby would be a dope, work way better. Let jsut say that ellie save abby, lead to joel death, that make ellie feel more guilt and none stop raging.
@@kabirahmed5495 lmao it already doesn't make sense the way it happens now. Why would Tommy randomly blurt out so much personal information to complete strangers.
@@Althecor they way you want the story is worse, it actually makes sense to me that tommy and joel living in a jackson becomes soft specially joel. They used to go on round looking out for survivors so it this might be the reason they told them that they are living nearby because they want them their trust in order to offer them a shelter in their town. Do u even know about what character development is!? Nature of people changes! Thats all i can say.
I am quite late to the party, but I am glad that this video confirms my suspicion of the story from just reading snippets of spoilers: the writing is too on the nose and preachy and likely not well executed. Another great video and I hope this channel continues to get its well deserved growth and appreciation.
The writing isn't too on the nose nor preachy, and it's executed really well. What are you even talking about?
@@krasmasov6852 the story chases ideals and it's goals while ignoring everything else. It even exist the characters when they don't fit it's narratives.
@@dgagamingaesir I dont follow. Could you give an example?
@@krasmasov6852 the story is about the cycle of revenge
To start this cycle, Joel is murdered , and is quite obviously nothing more than for the plot. He was made To act out of character so the writers could kill him off.
Now, most of the players, having experienced the first game, would be very upset with Joel's death. This naturally serves the revenge story. It makes you feel you are the character seeking revenge.
At first ,when Tommy wants to hunt abby, Ellie stops him, giving many very ,very good reasons as to why that's a bad idea.
She convinces Tommy not to go because she is sincere and open.
Aaand she goes out for revenge by herself ignoring everything she said. The level of stupidity to do this, and bring along dina on what amount s to suicide, is beyond me.
She then goes on a murderous rampage, and the young girls we knew so well in the first game is gone. Heck, Ellie has been through far worse, yet she always remained upbeat and snarky . Her character is ignored for the sake of the story;she is just a plot device, not an actual,fleshed out character. Ellie does horrible things, and the game tries to demonize her as much as it can, clearly removing any chance of relating to her.
And then comes the Abby part. The story is about the cycle of revenge, but the game tries to glorify Abby as much as it can. Abby got her revenge, but Ellie didnt. There isn't even a cycle here.
Revenge made abby, while it broke ellie.
Anyways, the game blatantly tries really hard to make you support abby, despite the fact that her dad was a mentally retarded murderer who deserved his death. You don't make vaccines like that.
Abby's story fails because it isn't subtlety playing with your emotions;it's brazenly trying to force you to feel what it wants you to. It completely ignored the first game and Joel's death(which would make a player hate abby). It's clear emotional manipulation, and the harder the game tries, the less it works. The player no longer relates to the characters, and they don't feel what the story is trying to make them feel.
The game feels artificial and cheap, lacking any nuance. Emotional events carry no weight as you come to view it as an attempt to manipulate your emotions. The characters simply serve the plot, nothing more.
The story is so idealistic,focused on its goals,that it looses the emotional investment of the player, and erases the characterisation of its characters.
And it fuks up the goal as well.
@@dgagamingaesir Joel didn't act out of character. Going with Abby was his only option. He would've died to the horde or the blizzard otherwise. But yes, you're supposed to be horrified by his death.
And no, you've got that backwards. Ellie wants to hunt Abby, and Tommy tells her why it's a bad idea. Tommy convinces her to give him a day to work out a plan. He leaves anyways and Ellie goes too like she always planned to. You've got the events here completely wrong. It's also ironic that you call this a suicide mission when Ellie and Dina both survive.
Ellie has NOT been through worse. Are you for real? The hospital sent her survivor's guilt into overdrive. Then her relationship with Joel fractured hard. Then he gets murdered. This is the lowest point of Ellie's entire life. Also, I related to Ellie's desire for revenge. I'd feel the same way, though I'd like to think I'd be able to show more restraint than she did. Still, I understand her and am invested enough to find out whether or not she's able to start making the right choices.
Lol the game introduces Abby as a monster. The vaccine would've worked by the way. The entire narrative of Part 1 fails if the vaccine wouldn't have worked anyways.
No, the story very much expects you to hate Abby. And emotional manipulation is the core of all fictional storytelling. It's also easy to relate to Abby, especially when you learn her motivations and how revenge screwed up her life.
The nuance is what makes the game great specifically because the emotional events carry so much weight. The characters are the focus of the story and drive the plot, not the other way around.
It's not really that idealistic. Again, it's more about the characters than any ideological positions. You're just wrong on all counts here.
The way you wove together the idea that looking at just journalist scores or just gamers scores mirrors focusing on just Abbie's story or just Ellie's, and then bring that back to your earlier criticism of the game about their stories not recontextualising each other, and then proceed to use that lack of recontextualisation to recontextualise YOUR OWN CRITIQUE was absolutely phenomenal criticism on your part.
7/10.
Relax dude.
ed ekkets
Let him live
54:25 I just want to add that Dina was pregnant by Jessie and that's where the baby came from, notice how he has Asian features. That being said, the idea of Ellie and Dina somehow "lesbian-ing" a baby together is my new head canon lol.
I don’t understand why he didn’t just say it was Jesse’s kid
The name of the kid is JJ, cuz of joel and jessie. Also why is that hard to accept? I have straight friends with gay parents, whats weird about it? is it cuz of post apocalypse setting? if anything, it would make it more common imo.
@@naxotogo Oh I wasn't insinuating that a lesbian couple couldn't raise a baby together, I was making fun of how the narrator seems to imply that Ellie and Dina conceived JJ. That's what I meant when I said "lesbian-ing" a baby together.
Did you guys really not understand? He was being sarcastic, he knew it was Jessies baby but he jokingly acted like he didint know to express how forgettable Jessie was as a character because of how bad the writing was.
@@davez409 reaching
they should have written it where abby got saved and was integrated into joels group and everyone gets along until hours later in game play she finds out who he is. that could have been a huge writing development. maybe shes friends with joel and ellie by then. see, thats good drama. not forced either i hope.
never thought of that, but thats very good idea. and now that i heard that video analysis i see that this story is really too much manipulative, forced...
Even easier, just make abbys family less perfect, say they were up front with Abby with everything except how they would've gotten the cure from Ellie, they should have kept that one secret and been a little deceptive or outright lied to Abby about it"for the greater good" .
Abby kills Joel and feels justified but later finds Ellie and finds out her parents were going to kill her and Joel killed them to save her... Huge shock to Abby and now feels shame and remorse.. Then the story could've focused on something else.
@@Kinkybobo23 The game is not bad. It just feels rushed and it could have been way better.
@@Kinkybobo23 So many good ideas. Ideas far better than what we actually got in the game.
@@moja_wiesbaden9323 Exactly. Hell, I don't even care that Joel died. Like a lot of people have said, beloved characters are the ones you kill off because people have spent time with the character and grew to really like them and get attached. I just feel like Joel's death was NOT earned in any way whatsoever. It was forced, and extremely humiliating. I totally understand why the golf club memes exist.
And hell, I'd even go as far to say that the way he DOES die (golf club to the head and being spit on) would be fine if Ellie had gotten her much deserved revenge in the end, but she doesn't. She let's Abby go and the whole story feels meaningless and hollow.
Just wanted to say I recently found your channel and have watched quite a few of your videos by now. I can't express enough how enjoyable they are and your hard work and effort does not go unnoticed. Thank you.
During the discussion about pressing square for the torture, I had the memory of Spec Ops the Line, (Spoilers for that game) - the white phosphorus level. Having the player have a similar "do this" choice, but the way it was presented and how that presentation drew out the emotions of the player in the aftermath of said action. That was well done to me.
Spec Ops worked by geniunely subverting expectations with that section. You think the base is just full of bad guys, only to have the game force you to walk through it and see what you've done.
It even works for callous people that would laugh at the burning guys, because the reveal of the civilians shows how badly Walker screwed up. You go in thinking you're a cool guy hero soldier, only to find out you committed murder.
There was thought and care put into the story. Last of Us 2 is about as subtle as slamming a sledgehammer against a trashcan.
Now this is the critique I've been waiting for.
This is the best review of this game I've seen.
Everyone else is either "Oh it's just SJW trash" and it's clear they haven't played the game because they keep calling Abby trans.
Or they're "It's a wonderful masterpiece and the people hating on it doesn't understand the point of the game, it's ending and haven't even played it. They're all just right-wing incels".
This review, on the other hand, is great because it breaches the extremes and gives a nuanced, but still critical review. Thank you, good sir. I very much enjoyed this video.
I played the game. Bought it day one and beat it by 20 hours on survival difficulty. It is sjw trash.
@@lexbaldwin5613 You gonna go full conspiracy theory and call it is leftist propaganda as well or are you happy just assigning absolutely meaningless labels like "sjw" to it?
@@lovebunny2652 I'm happy with whatever triggers you and your failed worldview more.
Lex Baldwin I disagree. I think if naughty dog did really have this horrific “sjw agenda” they would have made it way worse. They could have made you play as Ellie only killing straight white males. They could have made all the female characters have perfect happy endings and given them impenetrable plot armor, but they didn’t. In my opinion, there’s nothing wrong with representation of trans people, lesbians, or strong female characters. I think Abby’s arms are a little absurd, yes, and I also think that Joel should have had a more honorable death, but it didn’t ruin the game for me because the point of the game is to challenge you; to make you frustrated, angry, and disappointed. I’m not saying I loved this game, but I can understand their intention.
@@pixarboy02 oh, I understand their intentions, too. They failed to do the legwork to make their payoffs satisfying. They didn't do the work in the writing room to make their characters actions make sense. They made sure to have their representation™ but allowed the writing to be sloppy. That's how you can conclude that it's pushing an agenda. They care more about the gender of the characters than the characters themselves.
Excellent video. Several profound points that I hadn't considered. What really set it apart as well was how your tone of narration changed. I could feel what you were going through as you contemplated and mulled over the many aspects and details of the game and its place in the industry. Unforgettable and I look forward to watching more of your videos! 👏
You do, by far, the best level-headed analysis of games, their controverses and the reviews that surround them. This is why I watch you. It doesn't hurt you have a pleasant voice either. Much love, great critique.
54:26 I wouldn't say that this moment is a good analysis
@@harrynguyen2503 I almost dropped a public comment to call him out on this but saw yours. It's gonna take a while to flush the cringe out of my system
@@dhamirism yeah when I heard that my eyebrows raised all the way to the back of my head
@@harrynguyen2503 I don't get it. Whats the problem?
@@gronndar Not exactly sure, he kind of just threw that out of left field. Surely he must have been aware Dina got pregnant from her relationship with Jesse. I'd figure that was obvious and probably a common occurrence in a world where birth control and condoms are most likely non-existent.
I thought the game relied too heavily on plot conveniences, like hardened killers talking instead of killing their target right away, and world-building letters. Like, so many people that decided to write letters just conveying useful info on their death beds, and just happened to be found by Ellie (and Abby too I think) instead of any other person passing through. I realize the letters were probably the most practical way of world building in an already dense game plot, but some of them seem really pointless, even the ones of correspondence between two characters because we barely know (or don't know at all) the characters writing the letters. I mean, just look at the leader of the Scars, or Isaac, the leader of the WLF who was built up to be this epic tyrant in the letters, yet is -killed off a minute after he finally shows up on screen- *edit* Oops, he was introduced before. I guess I just forgot him...
Also, the killing of Joel at the beginning BEFORE humanizing Abby was just...a really stupid decision. Not because it was sad, but because it ruined Abby as a sympathetic character, and it even hurt Ellie's character as well, arguably (she was mopey and unfunny the entire time because she missed Joel, which is understandable, but it deprived of us of seeing much of her as she was in the first game) The story could have been both Joel AND Ellie looking for Tommy's killer (Tommy could have been killed over mistaken identity) while dealing with the strife between them, interspersed with the Abby sections building her character up to and after her killing Joel. Then Joel could start to get second thoughts after Ellie is nearly killed, deciding that keeping her alive is more important than revenge, though Ellie would want to finish the job regardless. This would inadvertently cause Abby to kill Joel halfway or 2 thirds of the way through without Ellie having forgave him, which would torment her for the rest of the game like in the final product, and everything else could play out the same. Theyre relatively simple changes that could have made a world of difference imo.
Honestly loved your idea for how the game could have been, I feel it fixes the one major flaw I had with this game, which is the lack of Joel. Neil said that Joel’s presence is “felt throughout the game” and I disagree. I felt that the story is truly brilliant and it’s ultimate message really resonated with and impacted me heavily. I just feel sad that we didn’t get enough of Joel. However, I feel like if they had built Abby’s character and had you sympathize with her before she killed Joel then we wouldn’t have the same “rage” or motive as Ellie in the game. I can’t imagine playing through the whole game while being warmed up to the villain. I found the twist of getting really attached to Abby (although I didn’t like her very much) and knowing that I’m going to have to do something I don’t want to do as her to be quite shocking. I also feel like killing Joel in the middle of the game would also make fans outraged (as MOST, not all, people that hate the game just want to hate on it because Joel died, and forget about any other part of the game). If they added more flashbacks or made the prologue longer we could’ve seen more of Joel and Ellie and it would have been even more heart wrenching to see the events unfold. Still loved the game though.
As a vegan, id recommend medium rare
As a cannibal, I agree
@@supermanuella92 cannibal? nice
You know more about steak than most meat-eaters I know.
@@supermanuella92 Human meat is more like pork than beef in the sense that it's unsafe to eat undercooked. Every self-respecting cannibal knows that.
@Vasya you got a recipe? ~asking for a friend
i never felt forced to kill the doctor. I wanted to kill him.
I felt very forced to do things in part 2
I felt forced to kill the doctor, didn't make the game "bad" or "wrong"
@@tigerguy529 of course. This was a personal moment for each of us. I was on the side of going apeshit with the doctor and nurse.
Other times i didn't take any actions and the character acted on his own.
Yes but you do realise a game that isn’t decision based doesn’t care about what you would do. It cares about what the characters would do in this scenario to actually survive
Ritoro how is that the point of the game when there’s multiple scenarios when the characters are talking about the decisions they will make.
For example; in the trailer itself. The one that came out 3 years ago with Ellie playing guitar. She literally says she’s gunna kill everyonee. In the game, her own wife/gf says “Ellie if it were my sister’s killers on a chair I’d do much worse” . Ellie in the middle of the room screams she’s gunna kill Abby when Joel dies in front of her eyes. But once Ellie has the chance she thinks “Joel wouldn’t do this”. Tf. Joel almost saw Ellie die herself and shot the doctor and the other girl. Joel was beaten to death and we are forced as Joel in the first game to kill the doctor? That’s bullshit. If they wanted to send a message they wouldn’t have made us believe the narrative from the trailer and the narrative of the 1st through 2nd game just at the end to not get a decision to kill Abby or not.
@@ritoro3823
You realize we didnt talk about decision or the importance of the character actions? We talked about what it made us feel.
Abby's gains seem like the same "gains for revenge" that suddenly hit Chris Redfield in Resident Evil 5, now that I think about it.
Impressive gains, given the eternal question in all worldbuilding: "But what do they eat?", a shorthand for "how does this society work at a basic level" as it all starts with food. Still, I think, as you say, someone just wanted Abby muscular. At least, she does live in a place where she seems have what she would need to make those gains.
I wish I made such gains... instead I'm watching youtube about a game I can't play on my 7th week of sickleave because my breathing is fucked and I have no voice. But at least there's ice-cream and youtube and I haven't needed a tube to breathe... yet.
ND explained her obsession with going after Joel was the reason she transformed her body into a killing machine.. and have you seen the stadium?
@@StayFractalesque They showed a gym and a farm. Gains explained. Master storytelling...
Somehow my suspension of disbelief works for Redfield since he got his ass handed by Wesker in Code Veronica, so he some intense training I guess. Being part of STAR did help. but most of all, its normal, functional world
Get well soon, hopefully the fungus doesn't split your skull.
@@FlyfishermanMike She also mentions how obsessed she was with training in Flashbacks with Owen.
Also, i reject that the Dina + Ellie vignette doesn't matter. it establishes that by continuing her vengeance, there's something she knows she's giving up. at the beginning of the game the audience doesn't really know much about Ellie's life in Jackson, so we don't really know if there's anything there worth staying for vs going to avenge Joel. The vignette shows us that even when gifted with a (admittedly comically) idyllic life, she's still driven to do what she feels she has to.
Disclosure: I'm not a fan of the 4-hour epilogue and I think it's not great for a variety of reasons. I'm not arguing that it should exist...but I'm arguing that given the final version of the plot, the vignette has a purpose and it's pretty effective IMO.
I disagree. There's no reason why the setting had to be so laughably perfect except to make up for poor character writing. All the narrative needed was that by continuing on Ellie was going to lose Dina. This could have happened literally _anywhere_ and been very moving... IF the relationship was effectively built up in the story.
Part 1 didn't need to show us a scene of Joel living (or imagining) a cartoonish perfect existence with Ellie before he decided to go on a rampage to save her life. We knew what he was giving up if he let her die because the relationship worked. We felt the profound connection. My guess is that the reason you feel it's important to have the farm scene in Part 2 is because the Ellie/Dina relationship just wasn't very effective. Otherwise you would feel strongly what she was giving up, wherever it happened.
Unfortunately, instead of showing an evolving relationship between Ellie and Dina - something that would naturally happen on such a journey - they remain pretty much in stasis after getting together. Instead of the well-observed subtle growth that was so effective in Part 1 the game pretty much forgets about them and just keeps throwing more and more wandering plot and underdeveloped characters at us and relying on a story told (nonsensically) in flashback for any emotional heft.
I remember it feeling so weird that after getting to Seattle the relationship felt so dry. I mean, we only recently got together and I've been crushing on this girl for ages according to my diary. I actually wanted to have a button to hold Dina's hand! You know, _anything_ to make the relationship feel like something. But every time I walked towards her she jumped violently out of the way! Then Dina just gets parked in the hotel and that's about it. Ellie pretty much goes off on her own, and then we follow Abby.
So yeah, instead of an effective scene where Ellie wants to carry on but Dina has had enough, and Ellie faces the decision of losing the love that she has gained through the journey in her quest for hate-filled revenge... we have to be shown the perfect house, the perfect sunset, the perfect baby, and the perfect little sheep just to feel like she would lose something. What the game fails to do with a touching relationship it has to make up for by hitting us over the head with a cartoon hammer. And for me at least, cartoon hammers aren't very effective.
@@grantmalone Damn, I enjoyed the epilogue part but you're actually right. I did think that Dina and Ellie's relationship felt a little contrived, and as much as I really wanted to care about them as a couple, they didn't give me that much of a reason to, honestly. It's like, after reading the notes about how they've liked each other for years, we're being told how to interpret their relationship rather than it being shown to us, which is never good. I will say, they weren't nearly as well developed as the relationship between Joel and Ellie, because Joel and Ellie were the central focus of the first game, while Dina and Ellie's relationship is not the focus of this game. Granted, they definitely could've been better developed still but yeah.
another thing that Dina lacks is... well, actually being a character. Literally everything that Ellie does or says, Dina agrees with, and if she doesn't, she just shove her opinion up her ass. Heck, she leaves her friends and family for a hichschool crush, basically. In summary, Dina is only present to be in service of Ellie. She's like Gwen in Amazing Spider-Man, instead of Ellie in the first game which was more of a Mary Jane from Sam Raimi's Spider-Man, that is, she was obviously not the main focus of the game (Joel was) but had such a strong character and independance that we all love her.
@@grantmalone Preach!
11:04 This post is almost 100% true except that they thought Dina was killed (because Abby completely brutalizes her to the point where any sane person would obviously assume she was dead if they didn't have the full ending to check)
11:12 This post sounds like it's simply discussing an earlier build of the game that may have had Joel gameplay, because after that Joel section (which maybe existed at some point but was cut) it starts describing the actual beginning of the game where you hang out with Dina and deal with the Jessie/Dina plotline. Keep in mind the game underwent obvious rewrites and last minute changes (it was originally indefinitely delayed, until the leaks prompted them to give it a new release date).
@@dankestmemes9843 can you comprehend what you read? no one talked about ellie. ellie is not mentioned by op at all. and brnewhouse STATED that it's NOT ellie. god damn, use that brain of yours. abby gets kidnapped by the scars and rescued/meets joel in the snowstorm. ffs
Dankest Memes how bout u reread 11:24 and tell me none of them were correct in the slightest again
I mean a lot of things were correct because the cutscenes were real, but there is plenty that isn't. Here's the full version of the two you mention:
i.imgur.com/Z0mlI9H.png
This one has stuff about Ellie's Mom, Scars all immune to infection, Ellie's serephite girlfriend...
www.reddit.com/r/TheLastOfUs2/comments/gdaaif/new_tlou_2_plot_leaks_most_of_what_youve_heard_is/
This one is better(but was also released later and as time went on people worked more stuff out), but all of the last bullet points are false:
Lev's life is spared after making a promise to Yara.
The Epilogue ends with Ellie finding the remaining members of the Fireflies.
A familiar face from the Fireflies return. This will make you question everything.
The game ends with a Seraphite killing Dina. This is the Cycle of Violence that never ends.
Also says you only play as Abby for 4 hours, that Ellie is captured by Scars, thinks the Joel trailer conversation was real, etc.
Dankest Memes given you named yourself this for other people to see, I’m sure your brain power is limited
NeverKnowsBest are you saying because some of it is false that mean they are all fault? I dont care about elie mother and shit. I care about joe got golfed and you control as his killer for half the game. Do you know the developer can also change the minor details but not the main story line? Some stuff they can just not mention and magically all of them are illegitimate?
And where is the logic of a hacker? Why a hacker do it? What is the point, there are many anticipating games out there but there are no leak? It can only be personal reason for the leak. Dont believe everything the media told you. Jesus
Abby is actually meant to be in her late teens at the time of her father’s death, making her around 21 or 22 during the story proper
She doesn't look it.
@@SilvrSavior She seriously don't, almost like they did on purpose huh?
She’s been on the juice since 14 then by the looks of her
The way the storytelling handled the change, by going up to the climax and then going "nope, not having this, lets rewind time and play the person you invested, emotionally, hours in hating", is how you loose your audience. A better way would have been to start both these stories in tandem. You don't have Ellie witness the death of Joel, but just have him go to the meeting, and she arrives to late, the group is gone.. and you set out to hunt them. At the same time you are told Abbies story. You start with her family having been killed (thus tying Abby and Ellie together on a synergetic journey), but don't make it obvious who killed them or who they were.. and you go and hunt down the perpetrators. And then at the very end you have Ellie find Abby, this is the first time the Player knows for certain she is hunting Abby and she goes "You killed Joel!" and that triggers a flashback of Abby, showing the Golfclub scene, in which she tells Joel that he murdered her parents.
Its essentially the same game, but told in a fashion that you do not hate Abby, even if you do, and you have the climax of the both stories coming to a head at the same time. This is how you do this the proper way.
People would just speedrun Abby's section to get back to Ellie harder than they already do. There is no ideal way to tackle this.
that's good in concept but it would be difficult to put into exciting gameplay, like the intro would have to be literally random people talking and then we hear her father died? and then cut back to the normal story with ellie? would be difficult to make that cinematic, with it being all hearsay and not an actual event we see or take part in through gameplay. the game would have to literally show everything about abby's backstory in the intro to make her story interesting, which is also a nice reverse of the intro to the first game, this time the dad dies instead of the daughter, but we would lose the mystery aspect of why she killed joel as a consequence of revealing everything in the intro. I agree though that the way her backstory should've been revealed should be more contextualized through her telling the story to some other character, rather than just randomly cutting to her story, I don't think ellie even found joel killed abby's father in the entire game
@@knurdyob You start the player out with Abby, doing a movement tutorial in which he walks around the compound and talks to people... then you have an NPC run up to her and shout "they have killed your father" and they run off together.. fade to black... and cut to Ellie, talking to her girlfriend about how Joel is out to meet this new group that showed up.. and Ellie says she has a bad feeling about it.. and goes to the meeting. She comes in and find Joel's bloody mess.
You now have two revenge stories that mirror each other. Ellies will be dark and a decent into madness, she is killing dogs and you show that side by side contrasted with Abby playing with them... and since you never saw the people in the group you will not associate Abby with this...
And then you surprise the Player by showing her being helped by Joel, making it clear it was in the past. It flips to Ellie and she finally catches up to the actual murderer.. and reveals that its Abby. And that is where you flash back to the torture scene with Joel.
You will have a mirrored story, side by side comparison how their journeys were day and night different. It would become clear to the player that the people they interacted with were the friends and family of abby. You can, then flash back to memories that associate the pregnant woman to be a member of the group and all sort of stuff. Maybe put another chapter with Abby as she comes across the carnage Ellie left.. and that is when you flashback cutscene to put it into context.
They could have done this very easily, instead of doing this hackjob of a story where they invested the audience in hating Abby for hours, instead of investing them in Abby before they reveal the reason to hate her.
@@michaelthomson5125 I did not miss the point. Its a terrible storytelling decision that makes you loose the majority of your audience. Just like any writing advice will tell you not to send your story on meaningless sidequests the audience is not invested in.
People will use this game as example of how not to do it, once the hype has died down and people are rational again.
Just make it resident evil style, two separate campaigns
Watched Noah-Caldwells video on this game I personally have no interest in playing this game and tbh I cant but it is fascinating to see the dozens of different opinions. I am sure even Joseph Anderson is going to make a video about this game.
Yeah in like five years
@@joekelly488 wait for the Raycevick ... Years Later review right along with Joseph's!
noah gervais is the best man i love his videos and even his humour.
The Lyadhkhor Strategist Joseph anderson has stated in his discord server that there will definetly be a video after the witcher series, he gave the game “ a resounding okay”.
Joseph Anderson confirmed on his twitter that he's going to make a video. Nice to see Noah getting some love as well, although not entirely surprising--the gaming video essay sphere is fairly tight-knit. Given that Noah tends to be a little lenient in his criticisms compared to other reviewers I guess I should've expected this video to be as critical as it was. I'm glad NKB posted this because ultimately a game as polarising as this warrants another essayists perspective on it.
This is a really great critique, couldn't agree more with all your points.
Keep doing what you are doing NKB, it is really refreshing to hear your honest and sincere takes.
@54:20 you say that it's weird that Dina and Ellie have a newborn child when it's mentioned several times, including prior to Abby letting them live that she's pregnant with the, now dead guy's baby.
I know you said you "can't bring yourself to explain it" but it makes out like it doesn't make sense as to why.
And @55:30 you just mention she's in "this empty house" as if it's all random. It's all set up here that Dina leaves Ellie after she chooses revenge over peace. I agree the storytelling is clumsy but intentionally or not, it's not representative of the ending, .
Agree with the first part , the "empty house" part is just descriptive I think, not in context of why Dina left
Yeah for a second there it seemed like he didnt even play the game
You’re a moron
@Commie_Scum He didn't say "it's weird that Dina and Ellie have a newborn", did you watch the video?
19:00 as far as the ammo thing, on hard they generally did give you alot of ammo
survivor difficulty was alot better with ammo balancing
Yeah, maybe because you would lose more ammo on hard difficulty than on survivor.
Informed, well written and relaxing & enjoyable to watch. Appreciate your content. Thanks!
Yep. After watching many reviews and analysis videos on the last of us part two this is officially my favourite and the most informative. thank you very much!
The problem with battlefront 2 and fallout 76 is that one had microtransactions as the only way to unlock content and the other was completely broken on release (and they’re still fixing it’s glaring issues as of right now). I just don’t think the comparison makes any sense
Hey man, never watched your videos before but I thought this was really well done, and I appreciate the contextualizing you do at the beginning to set the stage for the rest of your critique. I feel like a few years from now, when people forget about this whole situation or people who never even knew it was a thing see this, that the set-up that you do can be used as a quick history lesson to explain why this game was even controversial in the first place. Good work, and I pretty much completely agree with what you had to say.
Great summary of the user vs. critic score at the end there. Just as much as the user score is a response to the critic score, I think the critic score was influenced by the pre-release backlash over the leaks. Since that discussion was as politicized as the post-release discussion, I think some critics (who tend to be left leaning) went into the game primed to like it, because they knew the anti-SJW crowd was so up in arms. Of course, games journalists tend to give way too high scores in general so I may be talking out of my ass. RDR2 also got a lot of 10/10's and 100's even though it was a very flawed game as well.
Better characterization seems to affect opinions.
it's sad to me that people's opinions and perspectives on life are reduced to "SJW" and "anti-SJW." can't wait til dumb terms like that disappear
@@jamesliggins891 I agree. I was making a generalization.
@@jamesliggins891 buzzwords just get replaced by other buzzwords so that's not gonna happen unless you blow up social media
I find it even more depressing that reading the screenshotted (and yes, incorrect, yet surprisingly thought out) storyline leaks through their entirety creates a better narrative than part2 delivered.
Great, well articulated critique as always. Hope this blows up!
Great video! My main takeaway is your assessment of the repeated acts of brutality that this game tries to force upon the player, whether as a witness or as the perpetrator. For very little apparent payoff, at that. Looking at the overall story and what's left at the end I wonder why the writers wanted to do this to their characters and their world.
Because actual, meaningful cause and effect is hard to write for them, apparently.
Tlou 1 was good, very good. The dlc and beyond were trash.
You raise some truly spot-on points. It is good to see a high quality review like this.
“Leaks are exciting but they are almost always wrong”
*Laughs in GOT Season 8*
Reitirating his point i see
Jérémy Larouche all the leaks I read were 100% accurate so no
Yeah that fucking baffled me. Leaks and people saying they know the game is two different things
There was loads of leaks for season 8 and most were wrong
Troy Taylor I saw one and it was 100% correct
These kinds of reviews is the reason why I subscribe to this channel.
Just to answer your question about the ammo, you can actually make ammunition with a little machining knowledge.
You can easily assemble the components, but producing the requisite modern smokeless powder and primers is a different story.
This is true. Reloading is prevalent today but 20+ years without resources, who is making the gunpowder?
The plot seems like it was constructed around a checklist of shocking moments.
EXACTLY
Moronic take
Please, kind Sir, do explain.
@@realcrunchy6572
We're waiting
still nothing?
Great critique of a game I mostly enjoyed, but at 54:31, I'm pretty sure it was earlier implied that Jessie impregnated Dina before the events of the game started. Don't really see how its hard to explain?
It's the ridiculousness of it. I think he knows that Jessie impregnated her, but imagine explaining the full situation to someone:
OK, so Ellie and Dina have a thing because they kissed in a bar and then went on patrol together and found a weed dungeon, where they hooked up. Jessie walks in on them to tell them Joel and Tommy are missing, setting the game's story in motion. The two of them then go to Seattle together where they fuck up some WLF soldiers and flirt a lot, and endure some pretty gruesome shit that would have easily killed an unborn child, such as a ~15 foot fall through a glass ceiling onto broken glass and a beating from one of the WLF side characters. Then Dina suddenly starts puking and sleeping and can't be a part of the active story anymore, magically realizing that she's pregnant, and that plot armor protected her pregnancy from previous trauma that would kill most humans, far less a fetus - though she's quickly replaced by her ex, who shows up out of nowhere and finds Ellie in the middle of a warzone in bumfuck nowhere, and he happens to be the guy who got Dina pregnant in the first place. Later on, he gets shot in the mouth and instantly dies for some reason, with Dina and Ellie both recovering from their own near deaths while having no one around to help them. Tommy is crippled forever and bleeding out on the floor, Ellie has been beaten half to death by Abby's meaty fists, and Dina is not just pregnant and sick, but also pretty badly beaten with an arrow sticking through her. Jessie is dead. Miraculously, not just the baby but the entire crew (minus Jessie, for plot reasons) survives and the baby is delivered perfectly, presumably in the middle of nowhere with no medical care whatsoever after undergoing extreme trauma within the womb. Dina and Ellie then find a farm with at least a dozen sheep shortly after the baby is born and live on it, with Jessie's baby being raised by them.
Do you see the absurdity here? Yes you could oversimplify and just say Jessie got her pregnant, but you also have to explain why and how that baby was able to be born healthily in the mushroom apocalypse, which makes it absolutely ludicrous.
Medellinin perfect response
Read what med said that should help you understand gavvine
@@ScentSense I think you missed the point. It's because he very obviously was making it seem like Dina and Ellie just had a baby and it's never told why, even though it is. I don't mean explained as in if it makes sense for JJ to exist but rather just who gave him to Dina. 😐
@@ScentSense I was wondering why he didn't just over simplify it. It seemed like he was being dishonest just so he could take a jab at the idea of a lesbian couple having a baby, even though the game tells you why she has said baby. I wasn't looking for a long rant about how absurd it is that JJ is still alive but rather say that he exists because Jessie impregnated her and that that in it of itself is not "hard to explain".
I managed to go into this game completely blind. I missed all the spoilers, I missed all the backlash and I only saw one image with a bunch of 10/10 reviews on it. I love the first game, so I made sure I wouldn't be spoiled. I finished the game and just felt empty. And not in the sense ND was going for. Now I hate the game, but if anyone loves it, that's great, I wish that was me, but there is so much bs around this game. And no matter what ND likes to pretend, it isn't just bigots who dislike the game, and the bad reviews aren't just from people who haven't played the game. Hell, I'd argue the devs responses to any criticism of the game have been as vitriolic as the worst trolls.
Not to mention the stories about how ND treated his employees.
There's a reason this game is such a downgrade, it's because ND chased away all the other experienced devs at Naughty Dog and there was no one left to reign him in. Seriously, read what he had planned for the first game and how much had to be changed against his will to get a good game.
What’d he have planned for the first game? I really don’t care to look into Druckmann after everything I’ve heard of him, and the way his manipulation (key word) is even seen in the promotion of this game. Extremely annoying.
Can you elaborate on what Neil's plana were for first game? After this shit storm of a sequel I'm really interested in seeing how much he wanted to fuck the first one up too.
Simak Shahid check this video out I found. I think it explains it th-cam.com/video/4c9F0oCMRw4/w-d-xo.html
@@rigolith during the writing phase of the game development of tlou, Tess was supposed to be the main antagonist who follows and hunts Joel and Ellie on their trip. But after receiving feedback, Druckmann realized that the motivation for Tess's hatred to keep following them didnt hold up and he changed it so that Tess's dying wish was to have Joel escort ellie and be the motivating factor for Joel.
I wish Bruce Straley was still around for the development of TLOU2 and that Neil Druckmann was still able to incorporate constructive criticism into his story. It's sad because Neil is very talented (the ending of the last of us 1 was his idea), and he could have produced something truly great in the last of us 2 if he could only accept feedback. Tlou2 is littered with glimmers of brilliance in the writing so there was potential for an amazing story.
Judging by his twitter posts calling critics of TLOu2 bigots for not liking his game, neil's head has become too big for his shoulders. It's the george lucas/The last jedi effect all over again. Smh
the worst part about that, is that this Story we got, is something Neil has tried to get other studios to make before he joined ND, but they all turned him down, and somehow Neil did not get the freaking memo.
U deserve more recognition, subscribers, and views.
Many times you make so much sense and deliver your points across so well, I'm like damn, wow. This really permeates into me. - Even if I haven't played the game. I feel like I understand something about it.
Coming back to this after matthewmatosis and I like how you paint the bigger picture while matthew didn't. You win this one.
exactly my thoughts, this is the best take of this game yet, kudos
All the points you make that go against the narrative structure of this game, the inconsistencies, the emotional manipulations, the heavy handed themes, all of these issues have been thought over and contemplated probably dozens of times by the developers themselves. But I can promise you that nobody in that company would have spoken out about it to the director, everyone would have just nodded and smiled, put in their honest 12 hour work day and went home. When there's an ego driven director that mistreats their workers, people stop caring about the audience they're making the game for, and just do what they're told. They check out emotionally,put their head down and do the work.
You can tell the culture of the company has really changed in the last few years and it’s a huge shame. I really loved The Last of Us 1 and Uncharted 4 but I wouldn’t be surprised if people were mistreated back then either.
I agree with you 100% the culture that Neil created there was if you disagree with them in anyway they will call you a bigot and try to ruin your career so nobody speaks up and they have to leak gameplay on the D.L
In Love With A Ghost Girl I agree didn’t the developers or was it the leaker said that he/she wished the game to be hated or to flop.
They just wanted to go home rip. And now the story's shit
Holy shit out of every single comment and statement I've ever seen regarding this game this is probably the one with the most projection. So many random assumptions in one commnent.
I completely agree with this. The way how the game condescents the player is unbearable. It feels like 14 year old trying to write a 'deep' story. Also some of the moral positions the authors take are genuinely sociopathic.
Out of all the critiques I've seen of this game, how you looked at it all was my favorite. I'd give the game a 6/10
5/10 for me
Thats a shitty review of a game that has the best shooting/gameplay mechanics in a 3rd person game and easily
@@jugsofmalk9987 Glad your not a reviewer then , you would be shitter than Ign
@@realcrunchy6572 the best? Maybe but the bar isn't high and the competition is weak.
@@realcrunchy6572 tf bruh, I would rather play a game with an amazing plot that has bad mechanics that an rdr2 like game with a rubbish side story like plot, this game is rubbish and what’s basically carrying it are its mechanics, the fact that it didn’t win players choice says a lot, ghost of Tsushima is a great game with great artistic graphics and has an amazing plot, it’s mechanics may not be as great as tlou2 but it was the best game of the year
This was hands down the greatest review I have seen on this title. Non bias and completely honest. My thoughts and meditation after playing this game is the exact thoughts I had about this game and it's great to see so many think likewise. You definitely earned my respect on this one.
This game definitely deserves a 7/10. It's not a masterpiece that doesn't even come close to the original but in no way is it terrible either.
Wow, not only is this an incredible critique of the TLoU Part 2, you work incredibly fast!
18 days to complete a 27 hour long game on hard, write a script, and edit an hour long video is a serious achievement!
Not to mention this is one of the best videos I've seen from you.
Have a break, you deserve it.
This is one of the best discussions of the game that I've seen, and unfortunately for my recommendeds, that's saying a lot. I've been so stuck in the whole "if you disagree with me, we are now enemies and you're gonna call me stupid for disliking it" mentality that I noticed myself tensing up whenever you were praising the game for anything besides its visuals. It's frustrating, especially since I want to stop thinking about it and move on. I guess that means I should stop watching hour-long videos about it, but I'm glad I watched yours. Good work, man. Gave me a lot to think about, both about the game and outside of it. I'm subscribed now, and I can't wait for whatever you have next.
Some very interesting points and the bullet stuff made me laugh. Maybe it's good luck to leave behind one bullet in a drawer. The background to the leaks was very interesting too as didn't know that (though luckily I managed to miss them before playing the game).
I do have to take issue with the walking into a trap comments though. I've heard this before, but they didn't walk into a trap because it wasn't a trap. No one in Abby's group knows who they are bar Abby (and possibly Owen if she had a chance to tell him when she got back). They don't even know how near Jackson they are. Until the group hears their names, Tommy and Joel are just two locals who brought their friend back. Everyone is grateful for that and genuinely friendly. When Mel shakes Tommy's hand and introduces herself she means it. No one is trying to trick them and they were not being lured into the room. They come out of the snowstorm, leave their horses in the garage and literally walk into the next room. If you look at the whole series of events, the only mistake they made was missing a scared teenage girl's reaction when Tommy told her their names and not realising Abby's true intention for getting them to come back to the lodge. Given a horde of infected were breaking in, they were pretty distracted and had very little choice but to go along with her plan anyway.
Beautiful review, thoroughly enjoyed your insights. The thing i didnt like most about this game was how it tried to change how people couldve felt at the end of the 1st one. The ambiguity was lost and was changed to be "Clearly he made a selfish decision".
I don't believe a hacker being the source of the leaks. Of course they are not going to admit it was a disgruntled employee because if it was it would confirm the abuse their employees face. All of a sudden, because it wasn't an employee the crush isn't real.
Honestly, does it REALLY matter? Everyone knows that there's been some conflict between the developers and their workload during this game. Whether or not someone internally leaked everything or it was an outside source is irrelevant at this point.
Really now, at this point I just roll my eyes when someone blame the "hacker" at incidents like this. They cried wolf far too many times in the past that this reasoning sounds like a joke now.
And when I think about it, what would the hacker even gain from leaking this? Ah yes it's just another one of those "hackers" snooping into the dev servers again ha ha, but none of them leaked anything about I don't know... how about another game that people are hyped about? How about Elden Ring? People been dying to get some juicy info, but where's the hackers leaking stuff about it hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm?
@@franjaff6919 A hacker releases the random stuff they find. This leak was calculated to show lots of really bad stuff that players would have never seen coming and would never have accepted AND obscure the actual ending.
This was 1000% internal.
@@sportsjefe This doesn't change my point. It's irrelevant. Hacker, leaker, partner of an employee, Neil Druckmann's dog.... What's important is that the game leaked.
fran jaff I get your point, but source of the hackers raiding the server narrative is the same game journos that gave the game 10/10. I’m just surprised they didn’t bring Putin and Russia into the narrative. So, I would’ve have preferred the review just saying the game leaked somehow as opposed to seem to side with the journos. Just my two cents.
That was a neat insight.
A thing to note - "the more they want you to feel specific way the bigger disconnect" was something I felt when playing spec ops the line. I kinda understand how people hating TLOU2 feel, since I felt similiar after finishing spec ops.
Well, that'd explain why TLOU2 worked for me. Spec Ops only kept pulling me in rather than out.
Spec Ops the Line ruined itself for me when a loading screen asked "How many Americans have you killed?". They thought the player should only care about killing Americans.
@@thomaskirkness-little5809 no, it didn't. The games makes you kill people from a different nationality under the guise of blind patriotism "make your country proud, disposable soldier!" And then, as to show how retarded the concept of "patriotism" is as an excuse, it gets you killing Americans as well. That line you so painfully misread is basically the game teasing the player character with something along the lines of "And now? After all this, is that still your excuse?"
I swear, everyone who says they fully understand SPTL and TLOU2 and still found them dumb are those who got 50% of the message and then, instead of analyzing what they saw, simply assume that was all it had.
I do believe there really exist those who got it all and still found it dumb but I just am yet to find them.
@@Th0tSlAyErIII That's cute, but I'm not American and have no bigger issue with American deaths than any other nationality. That's why the line failed. It made the whole thing comical. I already cared about the civilians, and it tried to imply I should care about the soldiers. Don't jump to silly conclusions, or make stupid excuses.
@@thomaskirkness-little5809 I'm not american either. THE CHARACTER IS!!! When I say "you", I mean you, the player who's playing as the Patriotic killer. Is that such a foreign concept to you? And it wasn't trying to make you care for anyone. It's aim was to show how stupid patriotism and war really are (with a bit of meta commentary on fans of shooters sprinkled on the side). You're the sumbitch who's jumping into stupid conclusions.
The problem with games that focus on being emotionally resonant more than anything else, is the moment you put any thought into them they fall apart. So you have a group who don't care about the why's or hows who love it and group who do care that hate it, and very little in-between
Exactly this
This is fair, level-headed and I'm sure articulates the frustrations many players felt. It'll never catch on.
Your thoughts on the user scores are excellent as well.
When critics/journalists point-blank refuse to do their jobs then the frustration of the public will find an outlet (this holds true for games, movies, sports and politics).
It's strange to get labelled a bigot and a troll for pointing out poor writing, pacing and storytelling. You know...the very basic things you'd expect the critics to be experts in critiquing and relaying to the public.
I think they know they screwed up on this one, they know they oversold and refused to review this thoroughly. But instead of admitting this they double down and spit the dummy.
Blue ticks. They were a mistake, eh?
Thanks for the great review (as always). Also, talking about the gameplay, I've seen many reviews talk about various aspects of the game difficulty while seemingly having missed the entire *custom* settings in the game; which has dedicated sliders for the 'player, enemies, allies, stealth, and resources' enabling you to tailor-make the game to your liking.
You can basically set how more-less resources you'd like to find or how perceptive enemies become in the game.
I wonder how much you experimented with those settings but from what I saw you can pretty much make your own well-suited difficulty; although it's understandable not that many people would want to go to those lengths.
p.s. Oh, and the quote from Super Bunnyhop at 1:07:07 from the MGS5 was exactly what came to my mind when I finished the game and compared it to the journalists' reviews. Very fitting.
Well done. You produce high quality content and you haven’t let me down with an underdeveloped take yet. Keep up the good work.
The overwhelmingly 10/10s from the games media can be described with one phrase. “You don’t bite the hand that feeds you!”
Can't wait to watch this critique. I'm about 80% through the game, so I will be back once I complete it.
Make sure you do. Its the best one yet
So?
This review was extremely eloquently stated, as usual. I really appreciated the manner in which you legitimized the various reactions people had to the game. I think the manner in which the gaming media has attempted to disregard the negative user feedback is similar to the coverage of the 2016 Ghostbusters film, in which Sony deliberately tried to magnify the negative response of a misogynistic minority as a means of shielding the film from legitimate criticism and politically emboldening others in the media/ public into championing a poorly made reboot as a means of combating an adversary that in reality was miniscule and irrelevant.
In order to maximize profits*. People’s opinions of the product don’t matter, the product itself doesn’t matter. All that matters is that it makes profit.
I believe it's about time we don't listen to a large company reviewer since they are intolerant and does not accept negative feedback because most likely it is manipulated by greed...
Pretty much
It's always shield to criticism using minorities or such when It's convenient
I would agree with this comment but when the game came out metacritic was bombarded with negative reviews, without having even downloading the game. I’m not saying people hat the game because of woman or sexual preferences, but the game did get unwarranted hate without ever giving the game a chance.
@@LLAMAWILDBILL
[NeverKnowsBest] already mentioned this didn't he? A lot of the negative reviews comes when the positive reviews are just plain lies. Deceptive and manipulative. The critics lied with positive feedback and the other consumers bombed it with negative feedback. Perfectly balanced. I won't deny that the game doesn't get unwarranted hate but a lot of the people who hated the game in some way are passionate about the game. Some trolls are out there, sure but the majority are just passionate gamers.
Finally someone who tries to be honest, level headed and objective about this game, its not all bad and is not all good, its a middle of the road stuning looking mess of a decent game, a solid 7. Good video sir.
@@JohnTramonto Have you even whatched the video or read the comment you're replying to ? And you call others ignorant. Wow.
@@JohnTramonto What part of the game do you think people didn't understand ?
@Unfiltered Reality i agree; whats even worst is that you can see a better outline for the narrative in all the bad in this game; how this cast of characters could have work, how the events in the game could have played out and even how the ending could have been better, and it just bummes you out.
Fextralife's review I thought was well balanced as well. Although he avoided tackling contraversy as much as possible. Gained immense repect for these two as reviewers
@@JohnTramonto glad to see someone remembers mgs 2 reaction
Did not felt forced to feel bad as a player doing these ''forced'' actions. I felt miserable for Ellie because of her obsession. I guess we have differant visions on how as players we connect with the characters we play. I would feel bad to do bad choices in mass effect for example since the choices are really ours. But in TLOU, the characters are pre-wrote. They are who they are and I am just a spectator placed in their eyes. It can just feel weird because we actually play the character. Anyway thats my view of that particular point. Great critique my dude!
18:30 These points about the wider environments make the looting mechanics more problematic, because they're so limited. The first game had a certain rock paper scissors elegance. They should have thought more about expanding the crafting elements. Or expanding on how your character inventory works. It would have made exploration a lot more rewarding.
44:40 Abby's father is portrayed as a hypocrite, not perfect. he straight up dodges the question when asked if he's do it to Abby. Also Abby saying she'd want him to do it is no different than Ellie.
No, he was portrayed as perfect. Not a hypocrite.
He was portrayed as more "perfect" than hypocritical because what he was doing was going to "save humanity". He probably dodges the question because it would've been too difficult to talk about it emotionally and morally given that the situation at hand was completely different.
That question doesn't matter if you ask any person in a position of leadership to sacrifice one girl to save people lives they would do it without question. "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few". Imagine that a doctor nowdays with the same problem sacrifice one girl to save people from Coronavirus and change the state of the world and fear from going outside.
I think the point of their delivery was to show her fathers love for life, but also showing how life has changed him in the post apocalyptic world. He’s not perfect. He’s human.
I love animals. I’ll feed stray cats and adopt dogs, but when it comes to humans I’m fine with seeing one dead or hungry, because that’s just humans are. There’s people who love their dogs more than their family, so don’t think that simple fact affects his morality scale.
Wait does that guy thing that any doctor today would kill a kid to cure the coronavirus?
Like, that's super illegal and that doctor would be brought up before a board of ethics and have their license revoked. They would never practice medicine again.
Not to mention the study, the peer review, and the legal consultation that would be necessary just to allow a kid to, like, donate a kidney or something, if it could help cure the virus. And if they *chose* to.
TLOU 2 has constantly been on my mind since I finished it. I still struggle to come to terms with what happened in this game, but I think this video helped a lot.
Ultimatly, I just really wish I hadn't played this game, it left me with a very persistent and lingering sense of bitterness. Forcing me to witness the torturing/killing of Joel and especially Ellie's ending were just too much for me to stomach. (As you said, the fingers were so over the top. I couldn't laugh about it though.)
Also, thumbs up for taking the time to talk about the gameplay, it gets ignored way too often when it comes to TLOU2.
Edit: For those interested, I've since changed my opinion about the game to be more positive. It has been on my mind and I couldn't let go, so I played it a second time on survivor difficulty (which resolved the balancing issues around looting for me). Knowing that Joel´s death was coming, it wasn't that devastating the second time around, and I didn't feel this immense rage against Abby that drove me to almost speed through the first playthrough, which allowed me to understand the character in a way I couldn't before. I now truly believe there is a masterpiece to be found in TLOU2 - and I am glad I played the game.
For those willing to give the game a second chance I recommend you do. Let the dust settle and go into it with "eyes unclouded by hate".
lol @thumbs up (no fingers, see?)
Yeah right it seems like you went into the game ignoring its flaws
i admire you for being able to play it a second time. however, i cannot get over the feeling that i got fipped off by naughty dog by having to play a stupid amount of time as Joels killer with them desperately trying to make her likable. if you wanna do that, dont start a character of by letting her kill my favourite character in the first 2 hours of your game. any part i had to play as abby i hated it, i let her die numerous times on purpose and was disgusted having to beat up ellie near the end. thats not deep storytelling, its a slap in the face for fans of the characters
This is one of the best video game critiques I've ever listened to. I especially loved how you compared listening to user reviews to seeing the other side of TLoU 2's story.
Thank you for pointing out the in-your-face-ness of the emotional hooks. None of the game critique so far has touched upon this. The cheap manipulation is.. not very artistic, lets say.
And this indeed truly feels like something that was behind the people's response.
@livebreathmma thank you for sharing!
@livebreathmma It really depends on the story and presentation. The original Star Wars series is a pretty basic good vs. evil story that is generally viewed favorably by most, and I'd certainly say it has cemented itself as one of the greatest movies of all time. Part of why it works is it wasn't trying to be anything more complex. It set out to be a pretty straightforward story and succeeded at that.
The first game worked well because it wanted to tell a darker story that made you think about what the characters were doing and whether their actions were right/wrong, and the storytelling fit that much better. The second feels like it was trying to one up the first, likely because of the praise the original received, and that's where the heavy handed complaint comes in. Instead of trying to naturally create moments that resonate with the player, it goes too far in forcing an emotion, so much so that it takes you out of the narrative and reminds you that you're watching a scripted scene unfold, vs. being so immersed you're solely focused on the story and not thinking about the quality of the writing because you just want to see what happens next.
On paper, I think a lot of the ideas were good, but they fell apart on execution, again because of the heavy handed nature of the storytelling and trying too hard to either force a certain reaction, especially when getting said reaction also forces the story to bend over to get that way in the first place. It's strange to me that you bring up being pretentious/elitist in regards to the people who don't like it, since I think the "heavy handed" complaint is really saying that the game itself is being too pretentious with the storytelling, and arguably, pretty edgy itself with the over reliance on "dark" storytelling to illicit a response. It's equally confusing too given this video, which I thought did a fantastic job spelling out what did/didn't work, and still gave the game a pretty high rating overall.
It's cool if you enjoyed it. You're certainly entitled to your opinion and nobody can take that away from you, but if you're trying to have an actual discussion about the quality of the game, simply dismissing the criticism/insulting anyone who offers it only to say that the game is great with no further explanation doesn't add much to the conversation. Again, it's a point covered very well in this very video, rightly pointing out that both the overly negative and overly positive reviews really weren't doing either "side" any favors, and just made it difficult for people who were actually looking for more legitimate information/discussion.
@livebreathmma it's funny how you call people hateful shills and then proceed to write a hateful comment filled with ad hominems about the people who critique the game.
this video explains very well and eloquently what he means by heavy handed, but i guess he's just a pretentious wannabe elitist prick. people like you are just as bad as the people who hate this game for no reason. most of the people who critiqued this game were very fair in their assessment and explained very well what problems the game has.
as a side note some of the people who worked on this game and love this game acted very much like elitist pricks and self-important when they compared this game with shindler's list and people who dislike the game with a-pack--a day smokers or right-wing nutters.
@livebreathmma I guess if pretentious, self important critics are only okay if they work for a gaming publication, right?
Liana K is a former games writer who's been pointing out Last of Us II's manipulations in a good amount of her videos. And her twitch playthrough hasn't even reached Abby yet.
th-cam.com/video/Q97ghFXRoA0/w-d-xo.html
You didn't mention that while we are at their base, we can clearly see what kind of people they are. Many cells with all kinds of people not only scars. This made clear to me what kind of people they are. Abby feels good when she is torturing people. She's been doing it for years. So I don't feel bad for them. You did a great analysis.
"Understand your enemy", "forgive your enemy" no big virtues today.
Yeah I’m like what world do the writers live in? Because it certainly isn’t 2020/2021, where forgiveness and understanding that humans are imperfect is completely absent
Well done! This wasn’t a waste of time at all. Your remarks were well thought out and I liked your structure and thorough approach.
By the end, I just desperately wanted Ellie to go home and chillll. Joel wanted you to have that good life, girl.
She had that chance and blew it, can't even play guitar now, sad!
Lab Rat also not to mention how ND shit on literally every character except Abby when no one gives af about her lmfao
but nooooo uncle tommy called her a pussy and then off she goes.. looses everything in the process like dina said ellie is reckless
@Huge FX
Abby lost everyone she cared about, and was forced into slavery and starved to the point where she didn’t even resemble her former self. Wtf are you taking about?
Creed Thoughts he doesn’t know what he’s talking about and clearly missed the point of the story
This is a pretty solid critique, but I do feel like there's some oversight around 37:10. Abby isn't jacked for no reason, it's a reflection of her drive to get Joel, which is why it's an aspect to her physique that increased gradually since the death of her father. It is clarified pretty early in her main sequence and made textual by the gym equipment at the stadium (Edit: this is also something that you see traces of with Ellie towards the end, where she wears vests too and looks like she's been working out)
It's also referenced in her flashbacks with Owen: she doesn't want to miss training. She says it like six times.
This subtlety was apparently lost on some folks.
I think NeverKnowsBest just meant that it's unrealistic for someone to look like that because it not only takes a lot of training but also good nutrition. Which in a post-apocalyptic world might be hard to come by.
I'm sorry but this "reason" is just pathetic. Just because you train every day doesn't mean you get that type of physic. Do you know how much food and protin you need to keep this type of body? In this world this isn't very logical
@@mauriceraat2781 I'm not sure that totally tracks, though? Never putting it down to it being a subjective "someone on the team was probably hot for this because there's no justification for it" doesn't really imply that. If that was the intent, then why wouldn't you extend that to how most the characters have reasonable skincare and haircuts where it doesn't make sense for them to? It's at the very least a point that's a little underexamined
I think they wanted a different kind of character model for diversity, but it comes off as kind of unrealistic. It’s what makes players focus on when they see Abby which just leaves room for loads of memes etc, rather than “wow, what a diverse set of characters”.
54:30 Dina was pregnant with Jesse's baby, then Jesse got "game ended"
Yup, funny how every man in this game gets either maimed or killed
I’ve watch many reviews of this game. Yours not only rings true it is honest and it is fair.
I love your content and this stands as a high water mark.
31:50 That character's death was done in the traditional tragedy method of the characters own flaws catching up with them. That character was honest and honorable in a dishonest and pragmatic world, it is in no way equivocal to Joel's death which was against his character and how he acted in the world around him
If people want to cite a game that does what TLOU2 is trying to do more effectively, just play MGS3. The ending to that game forces the player to pull the trigger, but frames it as a necessary act; it evokes sadness in the player but doesn't make them feel like the game is TRYING to make them sad. Everything going on has proper narrative weight and context. You don't constantly cut to The Boss or Snake doing some other thing several years prior. You barely see The Boss at all, but you still *feel* the sadness of having to pull that trigger.
Thats the fucking point. On the other. Side of story abby doesnt know the character is fucking honest. All she knows that he killed his father.
@@kabirahmed5495 She could have captured him and interrogated him to get some answers about why he did what he did before killing him.
@@someguy3263 thats why I've always told guys like u to play the game before passing comments. She might have interrogated him during torture but ellie came up and owen told abby that yu know what i wanted but Owen told abby to finish it now before whole town comes up. Now this makes sense but i think theres alot of people with alot assumptions out there. Urggg 🙄
@@kabirahmed5495 "but i think theres alot of people with alot assumptions out there."
Dude, your entire comment was a huge assumption.
Also, beating someone on the head is not a way of getting info out of anyone. It's more likely to cause brain damage preventing you from getting the information.
Hell yeah dude, the GOAT is here.
The reason I can't like Abby is because she gets revenge for someone who is willing kill a child. Great video though, glad there's some sort of nuance in the discussion of this game.
I should add, she actually encourages him to kill Ellie so honestly I feel a bit cheated that Abby doesn't die cause she kinda deserves it.
The first game puts a moral dilemma: is it worth it to kill a child in order to save humanity?
If you decided it one way, it doesn't mean that people who took the other option are wrong.
I can't like Abby because she killed the person who just saved her.....
@@mattevans4377 and the way she kill him, it make me remember against 3 people in a fight myself back in school days
it really rage me up
If I remember correctly its stated that the fireflies had tried it before with other people and failed, so there was no guarantee that killing Ellie would've worked.
Just subscribed from watching this video. Class content. Well explained and took the time to voice the good and the bad.
Selective humanisation is ironically probably the most dehumanising act possible.