I am not against forfeits, I'm a magic player, we got some wild trapped games and usually play best of 3 with a time limit for the series. But I do think leagues forfeit structure kinda sucks and creates toxic playpatterns. I do think you should have the option to auto decline ff votes and that players should be stopped from initiating multiple ff votes in the same game or at least have a much longer timer before they can initiate a new one. I would love to have a look at the stats on how much that first surrender vote being called decreases win rate because it is taxing to play with people you know have given up.
Here's a thought - lower it to 2 votes needed to surrender. The game is over. You have at least two players who are done, you're already behind, and you think you're Faker and can carry this draft pick normal 3 v 5? You know what makes people toxic? Stupid try hards like this. If you don't want to FF, go play ranked. FFS. It's stupid to play a 40+ minute game that was lost at 15, but keeps going because the enemy team knows they can just farm kills and take nexus when they get bored.
The biggest issues with ffing is that one person can press a button that will immediately show up on everyone else's screen and ruin their mood. Most of the time ff'ing is not a calculated decision but a muscle reflex done by a tilted player. Solution? Make ff'ing into a checkbox. Four people press it then the vote pops up
I used to play at least a dozen games a day, every day, since season 1-2. Due to the FF culture, I all but stopped playing league. When I do, it's only a couple ARAMs maybe, but I never play ranked anymore. FFing in norms, fine, but when my rank is on the line, and I don't even have the chance to TRY and win? Naw, this game gave in to the weak mental players, does nothing to stop the inters and as a result, the ones who want to put their all into climbing, get out voted? Ranked should have to be unanimous to pass.
People don't realise that the game is just way more fun if they don't FF. League ranked is a sport and while people don't have to be professionals to play it they really should adhere to the same sportsmanship rules. Imagine playing basketball locally and losing 20:30 and your teammate sits on the floor and tells everyone that they might as well surrender because he is not going to play anymore because the game is "lost". It's a game. If you don't find playing it fun when you're losing do something else. After all, in League you lose about 50% of the time so if you only have fun half the time why bother?
Pokemon unite actually has a funny option in the settings, where you can choose to automatically deny the first or all ff votes and also a second option to not show those auto declined votes. Because of how the midboss works there every game is winnable
@@esrasor both this idea and the original comment idea are stupid, and if you dont see why flip it and think about the opposite. "i wish i can just auto vote yes on the surrender vote, im gonna vote yes anyways" lmao
The data of how often a game is lost when 4 or more want to surrender, is not without bias. Giving people the option to ff will result in people mentality giving up. So those games where 4 people want to surrender, having idk an 20% winrate, is not the same as that game actually having a 20% winrate. People willing to surrender are therefor already more likely to mentally give up and play worse. If you want the true data you would need to somehow control for this bias, which is functionally impossible to do. It would be something like get a group of 200 people split into 2 groups, they only play with teammates from their group but can play against anyone. One group is the control, they are normal league players who will not be given any guidelines, they will act normally. So they are the ff group. The other group would be the intervention group, which would be players which you tell to never ff, they are simply not allowed to ff. Then give them a period of time where they get use to this, to give their brain time to adapt to the fact that ffing and giving up is not a thing they can even do. Then you take the average gamestate in which the ff group ffs, and then you find the winrate of the no ff group when they are at the same gamestate. So you would for example find that people on average ff when they are down exactly 3498 gold in the ff group, then you check the winrate of the no ff group at a gold deficit of 3498 and check their winrate. I would definitely expect the number to be somewhat negative, but I disagree with august that it would be that low, maybe only 35-45% winrate, not anywhere near 20%.
@XionTheSylveon Yeah I have looked into study design a bit, so I do think you could get the proper data, but riot would never fund such a study without a massive monetary payoff. Its impossible because it would be a waste of time and resources.
What they do is train AIs to predict game outcome, similar to what is sometimes seen in pro matches. If the FF happens when the AI predicts, say, less than 10% chance of winning, then this would be a "reasonable" FF. Given the vast amount of data for League of Legends, this is a fairly good approach. You could even train the AI only with games which didn't finish in FF, which would be biased, but closer to that "no FF mentality" you are proposing testing.
@fernandossmm That fundamentally doesnt change anything. Sure the AI will be accurate, but the data is still just as biased. What they actually did iirc is just look at the winrate of games when a 4/5 ff and the game wasnt ffed (they previously had it at needed 5). Thats the data august is making his conclusion from, and its the same for your ai. Neither is accounting for people willing to ff, already have given up. You need seperate data sets, one like the current, and one where you cant ff, and people adapt to that.
5:58 I don't know how this data is collected. If you're only looking at the game state when the forfeiting happens, then I don't think it's relevant. If you're looking at the game state when the first attempt at forfeiting happens, then I'll agree. I think that just the simple concept that forfeiting is available makes it more likely for teams at a disdvantage to spiral into a an unwinnable game, just because one guy does an "ff 15" then spams the ff button. They do it even in winning games just because they lost their lane. From my experience, the games where my experience was ruined because one guy spamming ff faaaaaar outnumber the games where my experience was ruined because I wanted the game to end, yet the enemy team weren't in a position to steam roll us and end it for me anyway (aka, without needing an ff button).
Iirc League actually has a built-in prediction engine about which team is likely to win. It's not available for people to really see, but there was a time there was a bug, and the messages were flooding the PBE chat. It's a pretty simple prediction engine, but it was accurate for the most part.
The guy spamming ff15 does not ruin the game. He would’ve found a way to int no matter what, the ff button is just a catalyst. Mute him, he doesn’t matter, no one agrees with him anyway, if no one gives him importance, he will just play.
@@korangar4164 He wouldn't, he only ruins it because he thinks he is being held hostage. If there was no ff option, there would be no hostage, he would know that there is no way but through. Most people soft int in order to get their teammates to ff faster, not because they just woke up and chose it was a good day to soft int games. If the option to ff isn't even there, then there are far less reasons to soft int (you'll still get people inting because they want someone on the team to lose, but you'll overall get less soft inting) I do think people would go insane if ff was removed, it's a bit too late and removing it is too risky business wise. But if it didn't exist in the first place, the game would have been SO much better for it. Enjoying a game where you're behind is a taste that can be acquired and is something that can be encouraged or discouraged depending on what options you give the players. And giving them the option to ff compromises the need to learn to play from behind. I've had plenty of Dota 2 games where we're so far behind that we just go "Alight guys our mission is to kill their support, let's ambush them here" And we do it, we waste all our ults to kill him while getting wiped and we're still giggling our asses off and all chatting the enemy support. I never had any experience like that in league ever, and the main culprit is the ff button (and the absence of voice chat, but even if voice chat was around, the ff button would still make that kind of scenario unlikely)
i think another reason people dont want to surrender even if it looks unwinnable is that they havent had a chance to get into a full fight where they had a chance to use everything with even numbers. sometimes 4 people go around the map ganking everyone and it feels bad but it feels pointless to just give up when every fight has just been a tower diving 4v2.
i m curious what riot august thinks about regional afk data? afaik there are some regions with really high afk ratio since dawn of time and nothing changed it.
They said that they ARE banning AFK accounts. However, they also leasing the game to regional Publisher (Tencent, VNG, so on) and it's not in those business work ethics to disable those accounts. Corporate greed >>>> Functioning businesses
There are certain people who believe that not surrendering is some kind of hostage taking situation. If the game was truly lost, then it should end in the next few minutes. So barely any hostage taking there. If the game drags on for another 15 minutes, that means that there actually was a chance to slowly come back, since the enemies couldn't break through. So again, no hostage taking. Stop whining and play the game you queued up for. Or make an ff queue and a non-ff queue where it is impossible to ff and then match a full team of ff people vs non-ff people. Wanna make an educated quess on who climbs higher?
People will actually sit afk for 20 minutes in a game that continues on (enemy can't end a 4v5) and not realize they are the problem. The community of this game is actual cancer.
@@R3puLsiv3 even if ppl want to FF they don't even go for a last ditch bush cheese or anything. Half the time they just afk and do nothing. It's even worse if they are on a tank or scaling champ.
@@chumba421 People don't realize that turning a lost game around is a skill that you need to hone by playing on in bad situations. If everyone ffs at 20 then noone actually learns how to come back and it reinforces the believe that comebacks are too difficult. Those people will also never experience the joy of winning a hard fought game. Just a few weeks ago I won a game where a teammate fed and then left the game. It felt real cool but 95% of players will never experience this feeling, because they either ff or mentally give up in these situations.
In my opinion you are wrong. There are lots of games which at a certain point are lost scaling wise with no realistic chance to Comeback which drag out for another 15min. Obviously a lots of are also trying to surrender to early out of frustration, but there are also a lot of games which aren't winnable anymore comp wise at a certain point if you aren't playing in silver. And usally these games are miserable to play so a well placed surrender can safe time and mental. Which in my opinion makes it understandable if People get a bit frustrated about needing to keep suffering in a game with like 5% Chance of winning.
@@misuschie_7505I don't think you are correct here. While there are teamcomps that are very hard to crack late game there is also one important element - you are not playing against a pro team. I had a lot of situations where I was playing against a lvl 16 fed kassadin and I lost, but also quite a few times the kassadin got overconfident, got caught and solo lost the game. Players are very bad at making a correct call whether the game is truly lost. A chance of a comeback exists almost always, but the main thing that keeps it from happening is the player's mentality. Unless you are in a full challenger's lobby there are a lot of things you can do, small advantages you can gain and a huge amount of comeback mechanisms that you can take advantage of
I think its a problem in lower elos where people dont understand how champions work. Im a Kassadin main and I have won countless games by just scaling and then killing the enemy team on my own and actually winning a game that my team wanted to forfeit. Then again many games have been ff´d which I would have won if my teammates didnt surrender. So yeah Im hard in the never FF camp especially in lower elos where people make an insane amount of mistakes in the late game. You catch their carry getting a wave and its game over.
Agreed. He was talking about how when a surrender is actually voted called most people have a strong bead on the game actually being lost, but surely lower-skill players are worse at evaluating that too. I know what games are like in low skill lobbies. Average game duration is a lot higher and people just throw and make game-losing blunders late all the time so I totally agree.
He didn't talk about dodging but there is a word there that makes it so they should stop people from dodging "if one players spamming forfeit does not mean the game is not winnable". In that context one players dodge should not stop a game from happening. It should also be voted in drafting if they want to dodge or not because "when majority of players decides to forfeit, they probably are correct". That is very understandable like resigning in chess. The problem is again:not a single player can decide if the game is not winnable. No one alone should be able to stop a game from continuing after they accepted the match.
6:15 big no, people forfeit to not take accountability, their rule is either to get fed or forfeit, surrendering is purely only a selfish behaviorno matter what the other Gaslighting forfeiters would say....😂
I ff way more when I’m ahead. I’m not going to win my lane and let the 0-14 bot lane grief me and vote no because they want me to carry them to a win. If you want to int you’re going to lose lp for it
@MrJoseph308 Petty but Fair to some degree, tho i would think realisticly 98% of players that has 0-14 is gonna surrender😆 but in all fairness, if they totaly fucked up their laning phase but are still mentaly in the game, actually tries to scale and try to win the game, then for me personaly its a redemption ark and them taking some responsability for their terrible gameplay and actually still trying, even tho most would properly blame the jungler 🤣🤣 but i understand your point lol
@@MrJoseph308 that's a really weird attitude. why wouldn't you try to carry your team to win in that situation? some games you'll get carried too. it's a team game... why are u treating ur teammates like ur adversaries?
@@kerph when you have to play against someone with 3 complete items at 21 minutes because someonedecided that them dying over and over doesnt matter then they are my enemy
I don't think august answerd the question as best he could here. The guy asked why they are increasing snowballing with feats of strength. But I think the feats should reduce snowballing. Since first blood gold and first turret gold is now completely gone. Like sure you got a lead by doing this, but they payout comes in 15 min. That means the enemy's have plenty of time to "come back" before the snowballing even kicks in.
I personally had this opinion of "never surrender" for a long time, and that alone got me from low gold to low plat. (and a bit of toxic positivity, i actively encouraged my teammates). From what i've heard, even in dia people throw a lot of games that were "free win", and the lower the elo, the more it happens. Why would i surrender if i know that my enemies are really bad (because i am bad and SBMM). I had to realize i can't do this with premades. Because with randoms, it doesn't matter if i tilt my allies by keeping them in a seemingly lost game, but with premades, i have to live with the tilted allies even in the next game, which will also probably be lost then. Just because i'm tilt-proof, doesn't mean my friend are xD I've had a few games where the ff-vote went 3/2 and at the same time, the enemy surrendered. And i know, 3/2 and 4/1 aren't the same thing, but the claim "when we have an ff, the players usually know when the game is lost" seems very off to me. 7 players in a game thinking their game is lost at the same time doesn't sound like that... I wonder how many times both teams have 4/1 or 3/2 votes at the same that the enemy team just doesn't see. i want those stats! Also, i've even had a game where top/mid were losing and jgl/adc were winning (i was top; i don't remember the champs). I've had all 4 allies screaming to ff@15, i declined, and the enemy team ffed at the same moment. 10 players were in this game thinking this game was going to be lost, and the only reason we won was because i still didn't surrender.
I would disagree with the first point and say the Udyr example was more just his interpretation of it. I would say that people got sick of it quickly because they realised it wasn't Udyr as he was and how everyone played him, but a very boring and unbalanced cheese strategy, like when we recently saw Nunu and he just went some cringe full tank support Nunu. People saw Nunu and were like "holy shit let's go this might actually be a fun match to watch", and then it was literally the opposite in every way. They don't take risks in pro-play because strategies need to go through every variable imaginable and they simply don't have the time or effort to test them properly, and the downside is much more than just some LP. As a result I think teams are pressured to not think outside the box or try anything "risky", and a product of this mindset is that the only time an unusual champion is picked, it's because it's head and shoulders above the rest or extremely overtuned into a specific champion/comp that the risk is lessened to a point of no longer being interesting. It's why I actually enjoyed watching trick2g in that one streamer tournament whereas the rest of them were these giga sweaty tryhards that picked mathematically reliable picks instead of what was fun, essentially just playing what was broken to minimise risk at the expense of viewers.
Yeah pro play is so depressing. The things you need to pick to win consistently is at odds with whats actually fun to play and/or watch. I hope fearless draft finally becomes a thing. Force people into picking a wide variety of champions, even less optimal ones at any point. Force these players to actually practice things that are risky, which might make them confident enough to pick them over "consistent" picks that they arnt very comfortable with.
Fearless Draft should only be for MSI and the pro play spring season leading up to MSI. WORLDS should stay as it is for competitive integrity because it is actually interesting to see how teams adapt to drafts and change their strategy from game to game.
The problem with champs becoming meta in ProPlay is that those champs just get spammed into oblivion no matter what even after nerfs unless you legit make the champ borderline unplayable. Ofc people get rather quickly annoyed if you watch an entire split of games and 3/4 of those games have the same champs in it, because no one dares to play their own game (different strategies with different champs possibly countering the current meta). Everyone just copypastas whatever the 2 - 3 best teams (globally) do. Btw which is also why a lot of people want fearless draft in ProPlay.
I feel like there are mostly 2 different scenarios for surrender votes ie the game is over we just lost both carries and enemy just needs to finish in next 60s with 5 man, which is perfectly fine to surrender since barring them all getting a heart attack the game is practically over. The other one though is enemy got objective and we aren't even gonna bother to mount a last ditch effort, sure we are probably not gonna defeat enemy team with Elder, especially not if we sit in our base and let them set the tempo. It's the "the only way we are gonna win is by trying something different" way, sure if we play the same fight the same way and get overrun again we are gonna lose 10 min from now, so let's just yolo it, don't wait to lose, look for plays to overturn the game. Instead it feels like people prefer to just A-click down the lane and hope they magically win their 1v1 this time, even though they didn't before and are now at a greater disadvantage. Of course I think we've all been there before, the game where we are mentally checked out and just go through the motion. But for 99.9% of players it hardly matters if the enemy has a big lead they are not gonna play a clinical perfect game, you can catch people out of position even if they have 2 more items than everyone else.
A successful forfeit in ranked should be a unanimous decision. I also think if a FF vote is declined by 4 people, you should not be able to FF anymore after that.
I wish Riot implemented comeback mechanics for the losing teams to get rid of this "FF" Mindset players have if we lose all inhibitors turrets the super minions are so Overpowered and frequent its like impossible to comeback, I wish Riot made things for the losing team to have a chance to turn the tables I personally dont like games that are too onesided, we shouldnt be punished cause we had a bad early game and be impossible to comeback
Some of my worst gaming experiences have been getting multiple league games where the game is something like 6-25 and i'm hostaged for 27+ minutes each time, never ff culture is extremely toxic and makes me watch a grey screen simulator while hoping the enemies play with their food so long that they throw. These wins are never satisfying
do you really think people who don’t ff are doing it bc they hate u so much they want to keep YOU specifically in a miserable game? nah ur just mentally weak and they want to win more that u do. “i’d rather lose fast than win unsatisfyingly” is a very loser mindset.
@@mayguardian1 Yeah, im trying to have fun here, I dont care if i win obviously. In fact any time i have a champion or role that does well i usually switch to keep it fresh. I think people who obsess over not ffing are trying desperatly hard to win and are inflating their rank by 1 or 2 ranks when they can instead genuinely get better and not drag anyone who wants to have a good time with them.
It's also a matter of simple mathematics. If 4 people want to surrender and they press the surrender button when there is under 10% likelihood that they will win, lets say you played all those games out, over a 100 matches you would have maybe 10 such "unwinnable games" which means 1 of those you would win. Thats a 40 lp difference for most players, with 500 games thats 200 lp which is not a small amount.
unlike a game of chess, a game of league of legends will automatically reset to an equal game if you manage to survive long enough (wich your already doing because the game didnt end yet)
@@breakingbadest9772 you also have to account for wins you get from enemy team ffing early. If nobody ff’d, the only change would be game length goes on longer. I hate ff’ing and I have been forced out of winnable games which sucks but I have also won los able games vía a any team doing the same. Just play with a duo so you don’t have to ever ff
well, saying no ff doesnt really change those players mentality... if anything i feel like league shld have performance bonus like in valo if the game drags on... In valorant you can go 3-11 and then play really well and bring the game into overtime, then even if you lose the game you still only lose like 8-9 RR.... nobody wants to try and play out a game when you have to spend 1+ hours to loose 23 Lp
The amount of times people mental boom is crazy. People can be playing smth like aftershock galio and lose lane decide to ff 15 and if it fails they just soft int never team fight or anything when they could realistically still make plays. I feel like no other moba has people this mentally weak man. Going from the trenches in Smite to the worst games of dota and I have never seen so much bitching and inting.
Just make surrendering conditional to the state of the game example, players can only surrender if. 3 of say 10 small/medium conditions are met. and those conditions can be things like 5/10K team gold difference, no inhib towers are available (assumes no inhibs and triple minions, very hard to beat), or a big condition such as an AFK, or leaver. idk, just spitballin. i hate seeing ff votes.
"forfeit culture" became a thing because for SOME REASON we accepted "(insert X champion here) is slightly fed, obviously because they have a 600 gold lead, that means they should have little to no counterplay anymore" as acceptable gameplay.
fr, more stats into levels. more power into full items and less power into components meaning leads are created through major breakpoints that you can visualise through tab allowing for counterplay of "play safe till i hit power spike" or " even though he has 600 gold more then me i believe if i can dodge all his skillshot i will win."
@@thatoneneeko2131how is that a skill issue when most of the counterplay for most champs in the current era have been designed with the idea of needing to land something or futil a meaningful condition first?
5:27 forfeit is not the issues, it has always been players (long time returning + new) have no guard rails to re-learn base League (ARAM, LTM aren't included), plus the current social literacy rates is god awful, people can't speak proper sentences and/or iterate their thoughts at crucial moments - which are essential to ANY PvP games, League included.
i understand where you are coming from on the ff, but i for one think that the very existence of the ff button nurtured the mentality of ff go next, and regardless of whether a game is winnable or not, most players would rather ff and go try again just to fail again, than actually play the game as it was meant to be played and actually loose their nexus, im not saying that you should prolong your suffering if the game is more than obviously lost, but the difference in the amount of games that i had that were lost in the 1st 15 mins, as opposed to the amount of games i had that were winnable but my team just gave up, is huge. in my opinion, if the ff option needs to exist, it should be pushed to atleast 25 mins, if not 30, after 30 mins if your team didnt win there is a good chance one team fight spells doom for one side and than they can ff to save time or something, but in general the fact that you are giving people the ability to ff is just gonna make them do it more, also please consider removing remakes, there is nothing i hate more than waiting 10 mins to finally get into the game just for it to end after 1 min cos someone didnt connect, id rather play 4v5 and loose than spend an equivalent of a games length in lobby and loading screens
While I think you have a completely valid point about the ff button, removing remakes and forcing people to waste time in a 4v5 and lose LP is an absolutely terrible idea
@wendle14 well i agree removing remake wont fix the problem, but over the years the game has moved in the direction of prolonging everything else except the gameplay and shortening the gameplay as much as possible and thats what irks me, it is not nice playing 4v5, but than again its worse when its your game that crashed for no reason (and it happens way more often due to server instability than anything else) and than you come back into the game just to see your team ffed in the 1st min and you loose lp for nothing, also what i said earlyer its not enjoyable to be on the enemy eather, imagine, you make a nice play in the 1st min or 2 and all of a sudden all of that means nothing cos they remaked you get nothing, unfortunately apart from the comfort of ppl the remake button serves no purpose, we played for years without it, its possible
Forfeit is one of the worst things in League. Games can always be won, even at super high elo. Comeback stories are the essence of all league's comminication about rising through adversity, and ff is just the exact opposite that ruins it all. Please dude stop your "player experience" bs. People wanna leave their losing games because it is actually possible, if it wasn't they'd maybe have some resillience. FF is just the worst thing in league 😅
Nha , when I play normal with friends and we have to play against emerald-master player who are sweeting it's a good thing ( and it's pretty common for my playgroup) we have no problem with a challenging game but it's not fun to be stomped when 4 /5 players in the group are not even gold and the opponents are usually 4/5 emerald + and they smack talk you.
Sometimes FFing is just better for your mental and makes you win more games. If you have to go through disgusting miserable 30 minute losses, they can affect your mental negatively. I'd rather spend my energy on meaningful games than doomed ones where my only hope is the enemy team getting a stroke irl.
I don't know why people take on the feelings and ideology of streamers. Their job is to play league, of course they don't want games to end early because it doesn't make for good content. But when you have a fed smurf on the enemy team, you can't even leave your base to ward your own jungle and you can't contest any objectives and you are all stuck sitting in your base, why stay in a game that is basically lost? Playing for what ifs aka they might mess up does not make you a good player. Because if they don't mess up you're just sitting there looking goofy for 30 minutes.
What am I practicing? How to be a victim? If the match is somewhat competitive and there is a chance of victory then sure. Even when I don't want to play I'll still try, but that doesn't make it any less miserable. But when the game is completely one sided and your only chance is if they mess up then nah. I think no ff people take it to extreme measures. I am someone who is pro FF but even I don't FF every game, it just really depends. But no FF people ignore all that and just say no I won't FF.
I mean unless you're GM+ its fairly easy to either wait for enemy to make bad decisions for a comeback or just straight up stall the entire game to even out the gold and levels between teams which is good "practice" because games are ALWAYS winnable. "cant leave base due to fed smurf" like... this just doesnt happen above silver because the gap have to be extremely large between the smurf and the rank they are smurfing in considering how all ranks get better every season. If you want the game to end just after laning phase and make everything dependant on micro with no macro then just quit honestly because thats never gonna happen.
@@johnathan5906you practice finding flaws and mistakes in enemy play and you practice the limits of your character when behind. I’m guessing you wouldn’t like someone in your game who hasn’t practiced their champ, and you also don’t like them practicing in a game that no longer matters.
@itachi4761 Shut up and get your own personality. I hate when people like you come in these comment sections parroting streamers or high elo content creators. You have zero thoughts of your own. We are average players, and I am lumping you in too because I know you aren't good either. We've experienced the same one sided situations and for you to sit here and act like we're different is just cringe. I didn't say I expect the game to end after laning phase, you're just adding nonsense that I never said. And I'm definitely not quitting because some no name in a TH-cam comment section spouts nonsense. I'll FF when it's reasonable to do so. Don't care what you or anyone else says.
they were literally in pro jail for YEARS dude. Corki was basically never allowed to be good until his recent mini rework. Every time pro play is about to start riot nerfs azir and then buff him after it ends. They try really hard to keep pro play interesting to the determent of solo q
I genuinely don't understand how people delude themselves into creating a fake reality and fully believing in it. These champions have rarely been allowed to be solo queue meta, and corki has only recently had anything resembling a substantial stint.
Rather than buffing or nerfing snowballing, make winning progress the game faster. Like taking first tower deals 1000 true damage to the other 2 towers. No team is prevented from coming back but the game is now closer to ending. Similar ways to advance the game without having anyone get fed exist for everything.
what you just said is literally buffing snowballing. Faster turrets = more gold, more pressure on the map, secure objectives easier, easier to split push,... wym no one gets fed llike what ??? xD
@@quoccuong8388 First tower gives 250g to the enemy team and (next season) gives access to T2+ and T3 boots. THAT is snowball. THAT makes fighting harder going forward. Having less towers on the map is simply advancing the game forward. I think you maybe don't understand what snowballing is if you comment that... and if turrets are giving too much gold on kill then I'm all for tapering that down. Turrets don't need to give gold in order for people to want to take them.
@@quoccuong8388 Tower's have 5k hp. I suggested dealing 20% max health damage to the 2 remaining first row towers. I won't bother responding to any more of your comments unless you actually invest 2 seconds of average human intelligence to consider what you're saying.
I am not against forfeits, I'm a magic player, we got some wild trapped games and usually play best of 3 with a time limit for the series. But I do think leagues forfeit structure kinda sucks and creates toxic playpatterns. I do think you should have the option to auto decline ff votes and that players should be stopped from initiating multiple ff votes in the same game or at least have a much longer timer before they can initiate a new one. I would love to have a look at the stats on how much that first surrender vote being called decreases win rate because it is taxing to play with people you know have given up.
Here's a thought - lower it to 2 votes needed to surrender. The game is over. You have at least two players who are done, you're already behind, and you think you're Faker and can carry this draft pick normal 3 v 5?
You know what makes people toxic? Stupid try hards like this. If you don't want to FF, go play ranked. FFS. It's stupid to play a 40+ minute game that was lost at 15, but keeps going because the enemy team knows they can just farm kills and take nexus when they get bored.
The biggest issues with ffing is that one person can press a button that will immediately show up on everyone else's screen and ruin their mood. Most of the time ff'ing is not a calculated decision but a muscle reflex done by a tilted player.
Solution? Make ff'ing into a checkbox. Four people press it then the vote pops up
I used to play at least a dozen games a day, every day, since season 1-2. Due to the FF culture, I all but stopped playing league. When I do, it's only a couple ARAMs maybe, but I never play ranked anymore. FFing in norms, fine, but when my rank is on the line, and I don't even have the chance to TRY and win? Naw, this game gave in to the weak mental players, does nothing to stop the inters and as a result, the ones who want to put their all into climbing, get out voted? Ranked should have to be unanimous to pass.
People don't realise that the game is just way more fun if they don't FF. League ranked is a sport and while people don't have to be professionals to play it they really should adhere to the same sportsmanship rules.
Imagine playing basketball locally and losing 20:30 and your teammate sits on the floor and tells everyone that they might as well surrender because he is not going to play anymore because the game is "lost".
It's a game. If you don't find playing it fun when you're losing do something else. After all, in League you lose about 50% of the time so if you only have fun half the time why bother?
Pokemon unite actually has a funny option in the settings, where you can choose to automatically deny the first or all ff votes and also a second option to not show those auto declined votes.
Because of how the midboss works there every game is winnable
i wish if someone started a surrender vote that was declined 1/4, they were unable to start further surrender votes.
i wish i had the option to completely hide surrender votes from my client. im going to vote no anyways why force that negative shit down my throat.
such a stupid idea
Or at least give them a higher timer or don't allow them to make the next one so he'd need someone else to want to ff before he could try another vote
Or unable to start the next surrender vote
@@esrasor both this idea and the original comment idea are stupid, and if you dont see why flip it and think about the opposite.
"i wish i can just auto vote yes on the surrender vote, im gonna vote yes anyways" lmao
The data of how often a game is lost when 4 or more want to surrender, is not without bias. Giving people the option to ff will result in people mentality giving up. So those games where 4 people want to surrender, having idk an 20% winrate, is not the same as that game actually having a 20% winrate. People willing to surrender are therefor already more likely to mentally give up and play worse.
If you want the true data you would need to somehow control for this bias, which is functionally impossible to do. It would be something like get a group of 200 people split into 2 groups, they only play with teammates from their group but can play against anyone. One group is the control, they are normal league players who will not be given any guidelines, they will act normally. So they are the ff group. The other group would be the intervention group, which would be players which you tell to never ff, they are simply not allowed to ff. Then give them a period of time where they get use to this, to give their brain time to adapt to the fact that ffing and giving up is not a thing they can even do. Then you take the average gamestate in which the ff group ffs, and then you find the winrate of the no ff group when they are at the same gamestate.
So you would for example find that people on average ff when they are down exactly 3498 gold in the ff group, then you check the winrate of the no ff group at a gold deficit of 3498 and check their winrate. I would definitely expect the number to be somewhat negative, but I disagree with august that it would be that low, maybe only 35-45% winrate, not anywhere near 20%.
Honestly, you're pretty bang on the money with this kind of actual attempted study idea.
@XionTheSylveon Yeah I have looked into study design a bit, so I do think you could get the proper data, but riot would never fund such a study without a massive monetary payoff. Its impossible because it would be a waste of time and resources.
What they do is train AIs to predict game outcome, similar to what is sometimes seen in pro matches. If the FF happens when the AI predicts, say, less than 10% chance of winning, then this would be a "reasonable" FF. Given the vast amount of data for League of Legends, this is a fairly good approach. You could even train the AI only with games which didn't finish in FF, which would be biased, but closer to that "no FF mentality" you are proposing testing.
@fernandossmm That fundamentally doesnt change anything. Sure the AI will be accurate, but the data is still just as biased. What they actually did iirc is just look at the winrate of games when a 4/5 ff and the game wasnt ffed (they previously had it at needed 5). Thats the data august is making his conclusion from, and its the same for your ai. Neither is accounting for people willing to ff, already have given up.
You need seperate data sets, one like the current, and one where you cant ff, and people adapt to that.
5:58 I don't know how this data is collected.
If you're only looking at the game state when the forfeiting happens, then I don't think it's relevant.
If you're looking at the game state when the first attempt at forfeiting happens, then I'll agree.
I think that just the simple concept that forfeiting is available makes it more likely for teams at a disdvantage to spiral into a an unwinnable game, just because one guy does an "ff 15" then spams the ff button.
They do it even in winning games just because they lost their lane.
From my experience, the games where my experience was ruined because one guy spamming ff faaaaaar outnumber the games where my experience was ruined because I wanted the game to end, yet the enemy team weren't in a position to steam roll us and end it for me anyway (aka, without needing an ff button).
Iirc League actually has a built-in prediction engine about which team is likely to win. It's not available for people to really see, but there was a time there was a bug, and the messages were flooding the PBE chat. It's a pretty simple prediction engine, but it was accurate for the most part.
The guy spamming ff15 does not ruin the game. He would’ve found a way to int no matter what, the ff button is just a catalyst.
Mute him, he doesn’t matter, no one agrees with him anyway, if no one gives him importance, he will just play.
@@korangar4164 He wouldn't, he only ruins it because he thinks he is being held hostage. If there was no ff option, there would be no hostage, he would know that there is no way but through.
Most people soft int in order to get their teammates to ff faster, not because they just woke up and chose it was a good day to soft int games.
If the option to ff isn't even there, then there are far less reasons to soft int (you'll still get people inting because they want someone on the team to lose, but you'll overall get less soft inting)
I do think people would go insane if ff was removed, it's a bit too late and removing it is too risky business wise.
But if it didn't exist in the first place, the game would have been SO much better for it.
Enjoying a game where you're behind is a taste that can be acquired and is something that can be encouraged or discouraged depending on what options you give the players. And giving them the option to ff compromises the need to learn to play from behind.
I've had plenty of Dota 2 games where we're so far behind that we just go "Alight guys our mission is to kill their support, let's ambush them here"
And we do it, we waste all our ults to kill him while getting wiped and we're still giggling our asses off and all chatting the enemy support.
I never had any experience like that in league ever, and the main culprit is the ff button (and the absence of voice chat, but even if voice chat was around, the ff button would still make that kind of scenario unlikely)
i think another reason people dont want to surrender even if it looks unwinnable is that they havent had a chance to get into a full fight where they had a chance to use everything with even numbers. sometimes 4 people go around the map ganking everyone and it feels bad but it feels pointless to just give up when every fight has just been a tower diving 4v2.
i m curious what riot august thinks about regional afk data? afaik there are some regions with really high afk ratio since dawn of time and nothing changed it.
They said that they ARE banning AFK accounts. However, they also leasing the game to regional Publisher (Tencent, VNG, so on) and it's not in those business work ethics to disable those accounts.
Corporate greed >>>> Functioning businesses
There are certain people who believe that not surrendering is some kind of hostage taking situation. If the game was truly lost, then it should end in the next few minutes. So barely any hostage taking there. If the game drags on for another 15 minutes, that means that there actually was a chance to slowly come back, since the enemies couldn't break through. So again, no hostage taking. Stop whining and play the game you queued up for. Or make an ff queue and a non-ff queue where it is impossible to ff and then match a full team of ff people vs non-ff people. Wanna make an educated quess on who climbs higher?
People will actually sit afk for 20 minutes in a game that continues on (enemy can't end a 4v5) and not realize they are the problem. The community of this game is actual cancer.
@@R3puLsiv3 even if ppl want to FF they don't even go for a last ditch bush cheese or anything. Half the time they just afk and do nothing. It's even worse if they are on a tank or scaling champ.
@@chumba421 People don't realize that turning a lost game around is a skill that you need to hone by playing on in bad situations. If everyone ffs at 20 then noone actually learns how to come back and it reinforces the believe that comebacks are too difficult. Those people will also never experience the joy of winning a hard fought game. Just a few weeks ago I won a game where a teammate fed and then left the game. It felt real cool but 95% of players will never experience this feeling, because they either ff or mentally give up in these situations.
In my opinion you are wrong. There are lots of games which at a certain point are lost scaling wise with no realistic chance to Comeback which drag out for another 15min. Obviously a lots of are also trying to surrender to early out of frustration, but there are also a lot of games which aren't winnable anymore comp wise at a certain point if you aren't playing in silver. And usally these games are miserable to play so a well placed surrender can safe time and mental. Which in my opinion makes it understandable if People get a bit frustrated about needing to keep suffering in a game with like 5% Chance of winning.
@@misuschie_7505I don't think you are correct here. While there are teamcomps that are very hard to crack late game there is also one important element - you are not playing against a pro team. I had a lot of situations where I was playing against a lvl 16 fed kassadin and I lost, but also quite a few times the kassadin got overconfident, got caught and solo lost the game.
Players are very bad at making a correct call whether the game is truly lost. A chance of a comeback exists almost always, but the main thing that keeps it from happening is the player's mentality. Unless you are in a full challenger's lobby there are a lot of things you can do, small advantages you can gain and a huge amount of comeback mechanisms that you can take advantage of
he loves to say modulate
I think its a problem in lower elos where people dont understand how champions work. Im a Kassadin main and I have won countless games by just scaling and then killing the enemy team on my own and actually winning a game that my team wanted to forfeit. Then again many games have been ff´d which I would have won if my teammates didnt surrender. So yeah Im hard in the never FF camp especially in lower elos where people make an insane amount of mistakes in the late game. You catch their carry getting a wave and its game over.
Agreed. He was talking about how when a surrender is actually voted called most people have a strong bead on the game actually being lost, but surely lower-skill players are worse at evaluating that too.
I know what games are like in low skill lobbies. Average game duration is a lot higher and people just throw and make game-losing blunders late all the time so I totally agree.
He didn't talk about dodging but there is a word there that makes it so they should stop people from dodging "if one players spamming forfeit does not mean the game is not winnable". In that context one players dodge should not stop a game from happening. It should also be voted in drafting if they want to dodge or not because "when majority of players decides to forfeit, they probably are correct". That is very understandable like resigning in chess. The problem is again:not a single player can decide if the game is not winnable.
No one alone should be able to stop a game from continuing after they accepted the match.
6:15 big no, people forfeit to not take accountability, their rule is either to get fed or forfeit, surrendering is purely only a selfish behaviorno matter what the other Gaslighting forfeiters would say....😂
I ff way more when I’m ahead. I’m not going to win my lane and let the 0-14 bot lane grief me and vote no because they want me to carry them to a win. If you want to int you’re going to lose lp for it
@MrJoseph308 Petty but Fair to some degree, tho i would think realisticly 98% of players that has 0-14 is gonna surrender😆 but in all fairness, if they totaly fucked up their laning phase but are still mentaly in the game, actually tries to scale and try to win the game, then for me personaly its a redemption ark and them taking some responsability for their terrible gameplay and actually still trying, even tho most would properly blame the jungler 🤣🤣 but i understand your point lol
@@MrJoseph308 that's a really weird attitude. why wouldn't you try to carry your team to win in that situation? some games you'll get carried too. it's a team game... why are u treating ur teammates like ur adversaries?
@@kerph when you have to play against someone with 3 complete items at 21 minutes because someonedecided that them dying over and over doesnt matter then they are my enemy
@MrJoseph308 they're actually not your enemy though! they are on your team
I don't think august answerd the question as best he could here. The guy asked why they are increasing snowballing with feats of strength. But I think the feats should reduce snowballing. Since first blood gold and first turret gold is now completely gone. Like sure you got a lead by doing this, but they payout comes in 15 min. That means the enemy's have plenty of time to "come back" before the snowballing even kicks in.
I personally had this opinion of "never surrender" for a long time, and that alone got me from low gold to low plat. (and a bit of toxic positivity, i actively encouraged my teammates). From what i've heard, even in dia people throw a lot of games that were "free win", and the lower the elo, the more it happens. Why would i surrender if i know that my enemies are really bad (because i am bad and SBMM). I had to realize i can't do this with premades. Because with randoms, it doesn't matter if i tilt my allies by keeping them in a seemingly lost game, but with premades, i have to live with the tilted allies even in the next game, which will also probably be lost then.
Just because i'm tilt-proof, doesn't mean my friend are xD
I've had a few games where the ff-vote went 3/2 and at the same time, the enemy surrendered. And i know, 3/2 and 4/1 aren't the same thing, but the claim "when we have an ff, the players usually know when the game is lost" seems very off to me. 7 players in a game thinking their game is lost at the same time doesn't sound like that... I wonder how many times both teams have 4/1 or 3/2 votes at the same that the enemy team just doesn't see. i want those stats!
Also, i've even had a game where top/mid were losing and jgl/adc were winning (i was top; i don't remember the champs). I've had all 4 allies screaming to ff@15, i declined, and the enemy team ffed at the same moment. 10 players were in this game thinking this game was going to be lost, and the only reason we won was because i still didn't surrender.
I would disagree with the first point and say the Udyr example was more just his interpretation of it. I would say that people got sick of it quickly because they realised it wasn't Udyr as he was and how everyone played him, but a very boring and unbalanced cheese strategy, like when we recently saw Nunu and he just went some cringe full tank support Nunu. People saw Nunu and were like "holy shit let's go this might actually be a fun match to watch", and then it was literally the opposite in every way.
They don't take risks in pro-play because strategies need to go through every variable imaginable and they simply don't have the time or effort to test them properly, and the downside is much more than just some LP. As a result I think teams are pressured to not think outside the box or try anything "risky", and a product of this mindset is that the only time an unusual champion is picked, it's because it's head and shoulders above the rest or extremely overtuned into a specific champion/comp that the risk is lessened to a point of no longer being interesting.
It's why I actually enjoyed watching trick2g in that one streamer tournament whereas the rest of them were these giga sweaty tryhards that picked mathematically reliable picks instead of what was fun, essentially just playing what was broken to minimise risk at the expense of viewers.
Yeah pro play is so depressing. The things you need to pick to win consistently is at odds with whats actually fun to play and/or watch.
I hope fearless draft finally becomes a thing. Force people into picking a wide variety of champions, even less optimal ones at any point. Force these players to actually practice things that are risky, which might make them confident enough to pick them over "consistent" picks that they arnt very comfortable with.
Fearless Draft should only be for MSI and the pro play spring season leading up to MSI.
WORLDS should stay as it is for competitive integrity because it is actually interesting to see how teams adapt to drafts and change their strategy from game to game.
9s i got no life
The problem with champs becoming meta in ProPlay is that those champs just get spammed into oblivion no matter what even after nerfs unless you legit make the champ borderline unplayable. Ofc people get rather quickly annoyed if you watch an entire split of games and 3/4 of those games have the same champs in it, because no one dares to play their own game (different strategies with different champs possibly countering the current meta). Everyone just copypastas whatever the 2 - 3 best teams (globally) do.
Btw which is also why a lot of people want fearless draft in ProPlay.
Never ff.
FF = beta
No its like they've been meta for literal years upon years and you don't change it!
I feel like there are mostly 2 different scenarios for surrender votes ie the game is over we just lost both carries and enemy just needs to finish in next 60s with 5 man, which is perfectly fine to surrender since barring them all getting a heart attack the game is practically over.
The other one though is enemy got objective and we aren't even gonna bother to mount a last ditch effort, sure we are probably not gonna defeat enemy team with Elder, especially not if we sit in our base and let them set the tempo.
It's the "the only way we are gonna win is by trying something different" way, sure if we play the same fight the same way and get overrun again we are gonna lose 10 min from now, so let's just yolo it, don't wait to lose, look for plays to overturn the game.
Instead it feels like people prefer to just A-click down the lane and hope they magically win their 1v1 this time, even though they didn't before and are now at a greater disadvantage. Of course I think we've all been there before, the game where we are mentally checked out and just go through the motion. But for 99.9% of players it hardly matters if the enemy has a big lead they are not gonna play a clinical perfect game, you can catch people out of position even if they have 2 more items than everyone else.
Counter offer, you only get to vote if you are honor level 5
7:30 they could die irl 😂
A successful forfeit in ranked should be a unanimous decision. I also think if a FF vote is declined by 4 people, you should not be able to FF anymore after that.
i think each player should only be allowed to start 1 ff vote per game.
I wish Riot implemented comeback mechanics for the losing teams to get rid of this "FF" Mindset players have
if we lose all inhibitors turrets the super minions are so Overpowered and frequent its like impossible to comeback, I wish Riot made things for the losing team to have a chance to turn the tables
I personally dont like games that are too onesided, we shouldnt be punished cause we had a bad early game and be impossible to comeback
Some of my worst gaming experiences have been getting multiple league games where the game is something like 6-25 and i'm hostaged for 27+ minutes each time, never ff culture is extremely toxic and makes me watch a grey screen simulator while hoping the enemies play with their food so long that they throw. These wins are never satisfying
do you really think people who don’t ff are doing it bc they hate u so much they want to keep YOU specifically in a miserable game? nah ur just mentally weak and they want to win more that u do.
“i’d rather lose fast than win unsatisfyingly” is a very loser mindset.
@@mayguardian1 Yeah, im trying to have fun here, I dont care if i win obviously. In fact any time i have a champion or role that does well i usually switch to keep it fresh. I think people who obsess over not ffing are trying desperatly hard to win and are inflating their rank by 1 or 2 ranks when they can instead genuinely get better and not drag anyone who wants to have a good time with them.
"When 4 believe the game has ended they are very likely to lose anyway"
August calls it good awereness, I call it self-fulfilling prophecy
It's also a matter of simple mathematics. If 4 people want to surrender and they press the surrender button when there is under 10% likelihood that they will win, lets say you played all those games out, over a 100 matches you would have maybe 10 such "unwinnable games" which means 1 of those you would win. Thats a 40 lp difference for most players, with 500 games thats 200 lp which is not a small amount.
unlike a game of chess, a game of league of legends will automatically reset to an equal game if you manage to survive long enough (wich your already doing because the game didnt end yet)
@@breakingbadest9772 you also have to account for wins you get from enemy team ffing early. If nobody ff’d, the only change would be game length goes on longer. I hate ff’ing and I have been forced out of winnable games which sucks but I have also won los able games vía a any team doing the same. Just play with a duo so you don’t have to ever ff
well, saying no ff doesnt really change those players mentality... if anything i feel like league shld have performance bonus like in valo if the game drags on...
In valorant you can go 3-11 and then play really well and bring the game into overtime, then even if you lose the game you still only lose like 8-9 RR.... nobody wants to try and play out a game when you have to spend 1+ hours to loose 23 Lp
The amount of times people mental boom is crazy. People can be playing smth like aftershock galio and lose lane decide to ff 15 and if it fails they just soft int never team fight or anything when they could realistically still make plays. I feel like no other moba has people this mentally weak man.
Going from the trenches in Smite to the worst games of dota and I have never seen so much bitching and inting.
Just make surrendering conditional to the state of the game example, players can only surrender if. 3 of say 10 small/medium conditions are met. and those conditions can be things like 5/10K team gold difference, no inhib towers are available (assumes no inhibs and triple minions, very hard to beat), or a big condition such as an AFK, or leaver. idk, just spitballin. i hate seeing ff votes.
I miss Ryze in pro
whenever i see trapped games and tower getting resists up i just remember the sivir anivia meta. hell nooo
"forfeit culture" became a thing because for SOME REASON we accepted "(insert X champion here) is slightly fed, obviously because they have a 600 gold lead, that means they should have little to no counterplay anymore" as acceptable gameplay.
fr, more stats into levels. more power into full items and less power into components meaning leads are created through major breakpoints that you can visualise through tab allowing for counterplay of "play safe till i hit power spike" or " even though he has 600 gold more then me i believe if i can dodge all his skillshot i will win."
@@thatoneneeko2131 sadly there are champions that can miss every skill shot and still kill you
@@shiningdawn7871 sadly that's frankly a skill issue
@@thatoneneeko2131how is that a skill issue when most of the counterplay for most champs in the current era have been designed with the idea of needing to land something or futil a meaningful condition first?
They need to make a Hardcore queue that has 0 ff.
5:27 forfeit is not the issues, it has always been players (long time returning + new) have no guard rails to re-learn base League (ARAM, LTM aren't included), plus the current social literacy rates is god awful, people can't speak proper sentences and/or iterate their thoughts at crucial moments - which are essential to ANY PvP games, League included.
i understand where you are coming from on the ff, but i for one think that the very existence of the ff button nurtured the mentality of ff go next, and regardless of whether a game is winnable or not, most players would rather ff and go try again just to fail again, than actually play the game as it was meant to be played and actually loose their nexus, im not saying that you should prolong your suffering if the game is more than obviously lost, but the difference in the amount of games that i had that were lost in the 1st 15 mins, as opposed to the amount of games i had that were winnable but my team just gave up, is huge. in my opinion, if the ff option needs to exist, it should be pushed to atleast 25 mins, if not 30, after 30 mins if your team didnt win there is a good chance one team fight spells doom for one side and than they can ff to save time or something, but in general the fact that you are giving people the ability to ff is just gonna make them do it more, also please consider removing remakes, there is nothing i hate more than waiting 10 mins to finally get into the game just for it to end after 1 min cos someone didnt connect, id rather play 4v5 and loose than spend an equivalent of a games length in lobby and loading screens
While I think you have a completely valid point about the ff button, removing remakes and forcing people to waste time in a 4v5 and lose LP is an absolutely terrible idea
@wendle14 well i agree removing remake wont fix the problem, but over the years the game has moved in the direction of prolonging everything else except the gameplay and shortening the gameplay as much as possible and thats what irks me, it is not nice playing 4v5, but than again its worse when its your game that crashed for no reason (and it happens way more often due to server instability than anything else) and than you come back into the game just to see your team ffed in the 1st min and you loose lp for nothing, also what i said earlyer its not enjoyable to be on the enemy eather, imagine, you make a nice play in the 1st min or 2 and all of a sudden all of that means nothing cos they remaked you get nothing, unfortunately apart from the comfort of ppl the remake button serves no purpose, we played for years without it, its possible
Forfeit is one of the worst things in League. Games can always be won, even at super high elo. Comeback stories are the essence of all league's comminication about rising through adversity, and ff is just the exact opposite that ruins it all. Please dude stop your "player experience" bs. People wanna leave their losing games because it is actually possible, if it wasn't they'd maybe have some resillience. FF is just the worst thing in league 😅
Nha , when I play normal with friends and we have to play against emerald-master player who are sweeting it's a good thing ( and it's pretty common for my playgroup) we have no problem with a challenging game but it's not fun to be stomped when 4 /5 players in the group are not even gold and the opponents are usually 4/5 emerald + and they smack talk you.
0:06 This is exactly what Blizzard used to do in Overwatch back in the day. It was ass.
Sometimes FFing is just better for your mental and makes you win more games. If you have to go through disgusting miserable 30 minute losses, they can affect your mental negatively. I'd rather spend my energy on meaningful games than doomed ones where my only hope is the enemy team getting a stroke irl.
I don't know why people take on the feelings and ideology of streamers. Their job is to play league, of course they don't want games to end early because it doesn't make for good content. But when you have a fed smurf on the enemy team, you can't even leave your base to ward your own jungle and you can't contest any objectives and you are all stuck sitting in your base, why stay in a game that is basically lost? Playing for what ifs aka they might mess up does not make you a good player. Because if they don't mess up you're just sitting there looking goofy for 30 minutes.
you get to practice something that you rarely get the chance to practice,
What am I practicing? How to be a victim? If the match is somewhat competitive and there is a chance of victory then sure. Even when I don't want to play I'll still try, but that doesn't make it any less miserable. But when the game is completely one sided and your only chance is if they mess up then nah. I think no ff people take it to extreme measures. I am someone who is pro FF but even I don't FF every game, it just really depends. But no FF people ignore all that and just say no I won't FF.
I mean unless you're GM+ its fairly easy to either wait for enemy to make bad decisions for a comeback or just straight up stall the entire game to even out the gold and levels between teams which is good "practice" because games are ALWAYS winnable.
"cant leave base due to fed smurf" like... this just doesnt happen above silver because the gap have to be extremely large between the smurf and the rank they are smurfing in considering how all ranks get better every season.
If you want the game to end just after laning phase and make everything dependant on micro with no macro then just quit honestly because thats never gonna happen.
@@johnathan5906you practice finding flaws and mistakes in enemy play and you practice the limits of your character when behind. I’m guessing you wouldn’t like someone in your game who hasn’t practiced their champ, and you also don’t like them practicing in a game that no longer matters.
@itachi4761 Shut up and get your own personality. I hate when people like you come in these comment sections parroting streamers or high elo content creators. You have zero thoughts of your own. We are average players, and I am lumping you in too because I know you aren't good either. We've experienced the same one sided situations and for you to sit here and act like we're different is just cringe. I didn't say I expect the game to end after laning phase, you're just adding nonsense that I never said.
And I'm definitely not quitting because some no name in a TH-cam comment section spouts nonsense. I'll FF when it's reasonable to do so. Don't care what you or anyone else says.
Wait so why is Ashe perma in pro? Lame af
They allowed corki and azir mid for years. That sh*t made mid lane stale and they did nothing for years 😂
Not really, they nerfed both to 45% wr in solo Q to try get them out
they both were pro jailed for years, and corki recently got out
they were literally in pro jail for YEARS dude. Corki was basically never allowed to be good until his recent mini rework. Every time pro play is about to start riot nerfs azir and then buff him after it ends. They try really hard to keep pro play interesting to the determent of solo q
I genuinely don't understand how people delude themselves into creating a fake reality and fully believing in it. These champions have rarely been allowed to be solo queue meta, and corki has only recently had anything resembling a substantial stint.
FF is good, make me dont waste time and get to the another match
You are the one wasting people's time by surrendering a team game because you personally are playing bad.
Such a bad take for August here
Rather than buffing or nerfing snowballing, make winning progress the game faster. Like taking first tower deals 1000 true damage to the other 2 towers. No team is prevented from coming back but the game is now closer to ending. Similar ways to advance the game without having anyone get fed exist for everything.
no
what you just said is literally buffing snowballing. Faster turrets = more gold, more pressure on the map, secure objectives easier, easier to split push,... wym no one gets fed llike what ??? xD
@@quoccuong8388 First tower gives 250g to the enemy team and (next season) gives access to T2+ and T3 boots. THAT is snowball. THAT makes fighting harder going forward. Having less towers on the map is simply advancing the game forward. I think you maybe don't understand what snowballing is if you comment that... and if turrets are giving too much gold on kill then I'm all for tapering that down. Turrets don't need to give gold in order for people to want to take them.
@@seamillo you just suggested "taking first tower deals 1000 true damage to the other 2 towers", are you conflicted idek
@@quoccuong8388 Tower's have 5k hp. I suggested dealing 20% max health damage to the 2 remaining first row towers. I won't bother responding to any more of your comments unless you actually invest 2 seconds of average human intelligence to consider what you're saying.
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