and great call on Superman's super hearing ability. It always baffles me to know that in BVS superman rushes to save Louis Lane at the beginning of the film when he was Miles (or half a globe away, consider if the place is in africa/ middle east) but yet he can't hear his mom when Lex kidnaped her, like WTF?
Zack Snyder's an objectivist. Objectivists believe that heroism is evil because it creates dependency. DC put this guy in charge of super-heroes, which is completely insane. A guy who believes heroism is evil making their super-hero movies. Insane.
Is that why I really disliked the movies, in the end... I was wowed by the visuals, but ultimately, I realized I bought expensive DVDS I'll probably never watch again.. the scenes of human beings treating Superman like a god or demigod really soured me to Snyder's portrayal. where would mankind be if there were not brave men doing very brave things. Men who run into the fires, instead of away? Men who explore and open the world, the realms of knowledge, space... for the rest of us. Without heroes we would still be apes in trees.
8:30 I don’t think Snyder’s Superman intends to be above us. What they were depicting was our reaction to him - treating him like he was above us. And then there was Alex, treating him like he was below him.
10:20 That’s odd. He didn’t express remorse for the lives Zod took? I guess that’s a BvS Bruce Wayne take on who was responsible. Superman showed up, saved the planet, and got the blame. Clearly he cared about lives. That’s why he did almost everything he did…including taking Zod’s head. I didn’t need to see him feel remorse for those he couldn’t save. We saw him express remorse that he even (felt he) had to kill Zod. Again, to save lives.
First am going to say that I love Man of Steel.I didn't understand the issues people had with the film until rewatching it a number of times whether it's on cable or DVD. There was a scene between Superman and Lois in an interrogation room and it was that scene when I started to notice the color grading issues. I even had to ask my friends about it and they explained to me that it was a choice by Snyder and I completely understand why fans kept saying the movie was too dark. I love the design of Superman's costume, but don't like how it looks on screen due to the color grading. I started to notice that the action in the 3rd is just way too much.
@@blackrock316 the color grading in the interrogation scene is cooler and darker bc they’re in an underground bunker…just like when they’re above ground in the sun, the color grading is warmer and brighter It’s a artistic choice to create atmosphere, and set a mood/tone
Mentioned or not: The tone was too muddled. He is a threat, then a hero.... it stumbles there. It's not the "making of a hero" that Donner did so well.
@@scottlowell493 Zack Snyder was in a no win situation. He was hired to correct an error that Bryan Singer had made in being slavish to Donner. His Superman Returns is a weak replay with an egregious script. Snyder might have arguably gone too far the other way, but WBD has to find a way to make big movie money with Superman. And, Richard Donner and Christopher Reeve can’t come back.
10:04 That’s quite a take. People have PTSD from all sorts of things that the rest of us enjoy. 12 years later, he depicted destruction because two immensely powerful beings newly acquainted with their powers were in-conflict. He showed what that might really be like. It was The Authority on the big screen.
@ I was referring to the criticisms leveled against depictions of 9/11-esque destruction. If we are talking about what Superman is - the sci-fi approach is perfectly valid…for an alien. And the imagery is a “realistic” depiction of fights between gawdz. It’s the natural evolution of the Donner/Lester destruction from 45 years, ago. The Authority represented that, as well. And bothered to use a Superman knockoff to accomplish it. The above was kind of fun to think of and type but none of it matters if you’re married to rigid, static impression of who and what Superman can be.
The Superman as Other or God idea was more subtly explored in Richard Donner’s lionized original Superman movie. “For this reason, above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son.” It is not stated so explicitly, but there is a large God/Jesus metaphor, there.
7:56 sounds like the flip side of my “blasphemous” take that Snyder is the cinematic version of Alex Ross. They both see “godz”. The imagery is amazing. The storytelling has its moments. But there is room for improvement.
I know, a lot of people offer that explanation for every careless mistake he makes in this film. I just can't go there with you. It is his first fight... but he's not a child.
@@prodigioussaps when it comes to fighting, maybe that’s exactly what he is. Assuming the comments I was reacting to had to do with property damage and potential loss of life, of course, I’d want him to try to draw the fight away from population centers. His opponent wants exactly the opposite. I’m not sure how one accomplishes what you seem to want with complete success with a super powered being who can fly…directly where he wants to be. I took more issue with the idea that he’d not know how to stop Zod through any other means but he knows how to break a super powered neck on the first try. I’d rather it had been a mistake as he tried to turn Zod’s head away from the bystanders.
I'll never be capable of watching Snyder's Whatever that was (cause Superman, it's not!), cause it's an abomination and atrocity to everything this Character ever stood for! he mutilated every possible fiber of his existence to new audiences and that's how we got the cult of people who have zero understanding what this is and how it is NOT superman in any possible way or form. I remember it was written in Superman Wiki that Joe and Siegel wanted Superman to be colorful, that's why they gave him the bright colors, and over the years, the suit keeps going darker and darker and he is basically Batman on drugs. Doesn't look like Superman, doesn't sound like Superman then it's not Superman! First, Snyder destroys the legacy by ruining Krypton and making them into emotionless "robots" where you can see the striking difference from Donner, where people VALUE their life and even in the face of their death they still tried to have a few more moments. In Snyder's revision? they just stand there and die! that's about it. Same shtick with Jonathan, telling him "oh maybe you shouldn't save those kids" and don't save me, people will see... oh yes lets not forget Perry White is race swapped, Jimmy Olsen is killed for "the fun of it"... and the main character is a genocidal murderer... Snyder Fanatics will give you every possible misconception as an excuse... but if that's how they feel parents should raise their kids... i feel so bad for them! Cavil is a great actor and he can pull of actual acting, it's just a shame he never got to act, he was never Superman or Clark Kent! whatever character they put on his in the movie, wasn't any of them. There's zero distinction between the sides of the character, he his gloomy and depressed thru the entire time that it just hurts the eyes to watch... I think the only reason people have any value in the movie is because of special effects... this movie and everything related to it should be wiped out of memory!
I share your displeasure with the film 100%, but a lot of people dig this movie who aren’t part of the Snyder cult and are very passionate and articulate about why they love MoS. I can’t go there with them, but I don’t want to discount or devalue their enjoyment of it.
The thing is, we are conditioned to think of Superman as a big friend in the sky because he is friendly and fictional. What Zack Snyder did was look at relatively realistically, what would the reaction from us be if Superman actually came to Earth? Would we, as humans, be saying there’s our bright new friend, immediately? I don’t think so, but the mission was fruitless. Superman is already proscribed as “The Ultimate Boy Scout.”
We’re not “conditioned”… that’s just who the character is. You can always take an alternate spin, but after a certain point it’s not the same character anymore.
When resurrected Superman sees Flash moving at super speed I always wonder wtf was Barry’s plan here? What was he going to do? Push Superman? He could barely knock over a Parademon. Then of course he falls down seconds later. So disappointing.
@@prodigioussaps That scene showing he can react that quickly to something he perceives undercuts the bomb sequence in BvS. If he can immediately react to a speedster, he could just as easily have ramped into superspeed as the bomb blast began, race toward the bomb and fly it out of the building before the blast envelops anyone else.
Zack Snyder shouldn't be allowed near film projects. He can stick with commercials and music videos. He's not a serious filmmaker. He has the artistic vision of an 8 year old that's playing with their action figures.
Hated the flash in all of the DCUE movies. Loved the character in comic books growing up, and even the CW show for a few seasons… But he was so annoying in the movies
Yeah I wasn't too thrilled with them portraying Barry as a socially awkward dork. Not that there's anything wrong with that, it just wasn't the Barry I knew from the comics. I wonder how long we'll have to wait before seeing Barry Allen in the DCU.
another thing you guys are on point is the one about Wonder Woman. I also think Wonder Woman having a sword and shield is just WRONG for the character and her whole thing. most likely snyder and the current DC're just taking the cue from Alex Ross' take on the chracter in Kingdom Come, but failing to realize that THAT Wonder Woman is someone who's quite had it with humanity...and grown bitter, thus, more aggressive in her approach to dealing with the younger, rowdier, evil-er supers ("heroes" and villains). Her donning the battle armor, the sword, shield and spear are meant to show that transition, which rather stirred some reaction from Superman. it's meant to show a big character arc in Diana. with the dcEu, Diana started WITH all the weapons.
You guys should go back and watch Superman 2 Superman was Superman for over a year & there was tons of destruction in the city & Superman killed General Zod.
Ohhh you shouldn't ever question our familiarity with those first two movies. You've opened a can of worms here. The amount of destruction in Superman II is not even CLOSE to what happens in MoS. Not even REMOTELY close. Half the city in MoS is turned to dust, buildings knocked over and completely leveled, thousands upon thousands of citizens unquestionably killed. But the biggest problem with all of that, though, is Superman expresses zero concern about all those people who are dying. In Superman II, it's the complete opposite. He repeatedly goes out of his way to save people, to the extent that Zod starts using it against him, which eventually leads Superman to go for the Hail Mary pass and lure them away from Metropolis to the Fortress. Conversely, in MoS Superman actually pauses to make out with Lois while people are still trapped and dying in rubble. He could be zipping around saving as many people as possible before Zod comes at him again, but noooo. It's kissy time. So my biggest problem with Superman killing Zod in MoS is it’s completely incongruous with what we'd just seen. It's like, oh NOW you care about people? You'll kill Zod to save one family, but screw the umpteen thousand people who just died while the city was turning to ash, apparently.
@@prodigioussaps you go TELL em, guys... man, A LOT of CLUELESS people in the comments. they do indeed make the perfect audience for snyder's ret**ded take on Superman and the other DC characters.
aside for the goofy CG mouth, Joss Whedon actually improved snyder's Superman as much as he could...with all the limitations put upon him. if only WB had replaced snyder right after MoS....we could've gotten an actually great Superman movie with Henry Cavill, in a sequel. shame.
@@isuriadireja91 I don’t think so. Joss Whedon didn’t improve anything. I think I know what he was attempting, creatively. I think he might have wanted to make a modern big budget version of 70’s and 80’s product Super Friends. But, he was out of time and era, there. Speaking as a child of the 80’s, I would rather watch every single season and episode of Super Friends than watch Joss Whedon’s Justice League movie again. And, I freely admit the flaws of the animated series.
@@nickperkins8477 how would you know what he was really gonna do, if her was hired and do a Justice League movie from scratch instead of this patching job? He's written one of the best X-Men storylines, in Astonishing X-Men...and he did TWO $ 1 billion Avengers movies, so....yeah, I DO believe Joss whould've done one heckuva job on a Justice League, if he was hired from the get go...and not as a last minute replacement.
and great call on Superman's super hearing ability. It always baffles me to know that in BVS superman rushes to save Louis Lane at the beginning of the film when he was Miles (or half a globe away, consider if the place is in africa/ middle east) but yet he can't hear his mom when Lex kidnaped her, like WTF?
Yep! And to be fair, even the Christopher Reeve films fumbled the ball with the super hearing thing a few times.
Zack Snyder's an objectivist. Objectivists believe that heroism is evil because it creates dependency. DC put this guy in charge of super-heroes, which is completely insane. A guy who believes heroism is evil making their super-hero movies. Insane.
Exactly. So glad we’re done with that now.
Is that why I really disliked the movies, in the end... I was wowed by the visuals, but ultimately, I realized I bought expensive DVDS I'll probably never watch again.. the scenes of human beings treating Superman like a god or demigod really soured me to Snyder's portrayal. where would mankind be if there were not brave men doing very brave things. Men who run into the fires, instead of away? Men who explore and open the world, the realms of knowledge, space... for the rest of us. Without heroes we would still be apes in trees.
@@kathleenhensley5951 agreed!
This vid has aged like the finest of wines!
8:30 I don’t think Snyder’s Superman intends to be above us.
What they were depicting was our reaction to him - treating him like he was above us.
And then there was Alex, treating him like he was below him.
10:20 That’s odd. He didn’t express remorse for the lives Zod took?
I guess that’s a BvS Bruce Wayne take on who was responsible.
Superman showed up, saved the planet, and got the blame.
Clearly he cared about lives. That’s why he did almost everything he did…including taking Zod’s head.
I didn’t need to see him feel remorse for those he couldn’t save. We saw him express remorse that he even (felt he) had to kill Zod.
Again, to save lives.
well, obviously, just like snyder, U don't get what makes Superman...Superman.
@ thanks for that substantive contribution.
It’s been covered.
First am going to say that I love Man of Steel.I didn't understand the issues people had with the film until rewatching it a number of times whether it's on cable or DVD. There was a scene between Superman and Lois in an interrogation room and it was that scene when I started to notice the color grading issues. I even had to ask my friends about it and they explained to me that it was a choice by Snyder and I completely understand why fans kept saying the movie was too dark. I love the design of Superman's costume, but don't like how it looks on screen due to the color grading. I started to notice that the action in the 3rd is just way too much.
@@blackrock316 the color grading in the interrogation scene is cooler and darker bc they’re in an underground bunker…just like when they’re above ground in the sun, the color grading is warmer and brighter
It’s a artistic choice to create atmosphere, and set a mood/tone
Mentioned or not: The tone was too muddled. He is a threat, then a hero.... it stumbles there. It's not the "making of a hero" that Donner did so well.
@@scottlowell493 Zack Snyder was in a no win situation. He was hired to correct an error that Bryan Singer had made in being slavish to Donner. His Superman Returns is a weak replay with an egregious script. Snyder might have arguably gone too far the other way, but WBD has to find a way to make big movie money with Superman. And, Richard Donner and Christopher Reeve can’t come back.
10:04 That’s quite a take.
People have PTSD from all sorts of things that the rest of us enjoy.
12 years later, he depicted destruction because two immensely powerful beings newly acquainted with their powers were in-conflict.
He showed what that might really be like.
It was The Authority on the big screen.
Yeah you’re right it is like the Authority, but for us that’s the whole thing in a nutshell, Superman isn’t the Authority.
@ I was referring to the criticisms leveled against depictions of 9/11-esque destruction.
If we are talking about what Superman is - the sci-fi approach is perfectly valid…for an alien.
And the imagery is a “realistic” depiction of fights between gawdz.
It’s the natural evolution of the Donner/Lester destruction from 45 years, ago.
The Authority represented that, as well. And bothered to use a Superman knockoff to accomplish it.
The above was kind of fun to think of and type but none of it matters if you’re married to rigid, static impression of who and what Superman can be.
The Superman as Other or God idea was more subtly explored in Richard Donner’s lionized original Superman movie. “For this reason, above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son.” It is not stated so explicitly, but there is a large God/Jesus metaphor, there.
7:56 sounds like the flip side of my “blasphemous” take that Snyder is the cinematic version of Alex Ross.
They both see “godz”.
The imagery is amazing. The storytelling has its moments. But there is room for improvement.
8:57 because it was his first fight. Ever.
I know, a lot of people offer that explanation for every careless mistake he makes in this film. I just can't go there with you. It is his first fight... but he's not a child.
and it shows that this Superman ain't too bright.
@@prodigioussaps when it comes to fighting, maybe that’s exactly what he is.
Assuming the comments I was reacting to had to do with property damage and potential loss of life, of course, I’d want him to try to draw the fight away from population centers.
His opponent wants exactly the opposite. I’m not sure how one accomplishes what you seem to want with complete success with a super powered being who can fly…directly where he wants to be.
I took more issue with the idea that he’d not know how to stop Zod through any other means but he knows how to break a super powered neck on the first try.
I’d rather it had been a mistake as he tried to turn Zod’s head away from the bystanders.
I'll never be capable of watching Snyder's Whatever that was (cause Superman, it's not!), cause it's an abomination and atrocity to everything this Character ever stood for! he mutilated every possible fiber of his existence to new audiences and that's how we got the cult of people who have zero understanding what this is and how it is NOT superman in any possible way or form.
I remember it was written in Superman Wiki that Joe and Siegel wanted Superman to be colorful, that's why they gave him the bright colors, and over the years, the suit keeps going darker and darker and he is basically Batman on drugs. Doesn't look like Superman, doesn't sound like Superman then it's not Superman!
First, Snyder destroys the legacy by ruining Krypton and making them into emotionless "robots" where you can see the striking difference from Donner, where people VALUE their life and even in the face of their death they still tried to have a few more moments. In Snyder's revision? they just stand there and die! that's about it. Same shtick with Jonathan, telling him "oh maybe you shouldn't save those kids" and don't save me, people will see... oh yes lets not forget Perry White is race swapped, Jimmy Olsen is killed for "the fun of it"... and the main character is a genocidal murderer...
Snyder Fanatics will give you every possible misconception as an excuse... but if that's how they feel parents should raise their kids... i feel so bad for them!
Cavil is a great actor and he can pull of actual acting, it's just a shame he never got to act, he was never Superman or Clark Kent! whatever character they put on his in the movie, wasn't any of them. There's zero distinction between the sides of the character, he his gloomy and depressed thru the entire time that it just hurts the eyes to watch...
I think the only reason people have any value in the movie is because of special effects... this movie and everything related to it should be wiped out of memory!
I share your displeasure with the film 100%, but a lot of people dig this movie who aren’t part of the Snyder cult and are very passionate and articulate about why they love MoS. I can’t go there with them, but I don’t want to discount or devalue their enjoyment of it.
The thing is, we are conditioned to think of Superman as a big friend in the sky because he is friendly and fictional. What Zack Snyder did was look at relatively realistically, what would the reaction from us be if Superman actually came to Earth? Would we, as humans, be saying there’s our bright new friend, immediately? I don’t think so, but the mission was fruitless. Superman is already proscribed as “The Ultimate Boy Scout.”
We’re not “conditioned”… that’s just who the character is. You can always take an alternate spin, but after a certain point it’s not the same character anymore.
When resurrected Superman sees Flash moving at super speed I always wonder wtf was Barry’s plan here? What was he going to do? Push Superman? He could barely knock over a Parademon. Then of course he falls down seconds later. So disappointing.
True. I do like that moment, though, where Flash suddenly realizes Superman can see him and he’s like “Oh shit!”
@@prodigioussaps It WAS a great moment for sure. Loved that they did that.
@@prodigioussaps That scene showing he can react that quickly to something he perceives undercuts the bomb sequence in BvS. If he can immediately react to a speedster, he could just as easily have ramped into superspeed as the bomb blast began, race toward the bomb and fly it out of the building before the blast envelops anyone else.
Zack Snyder shouldn't be allowed near film projects. He can stick with commercials and music videos. He's not a serious filmmaker. He has the artistic vision of an 8 year old that's playing with their action figures.
Hated the flash in all of the DCUE movies. Loved the character in comic books growing up, and even the CW show for a few seasons… But he was so annoying in the movies
Yeah I wasn't too thrilled with them portraying Barry as a socially awkward dork. Not that there's anything wrong with that, it just wasn't the Barry I knew from the comics. I wonder how long we'll have to wait before seeing Barry Allen in the DCU.
another thing you guys are on point is the one about Wonder Woman.
I also think Wonder Woman having a sword and shield is just WRONG for the character and her whole thing.
most likely snyder and the current DC're just taking the cue from Alex Ross' take on the chracter in Kingdom Come, but failing to realize that THAT Wonder Woman is someone who's quite had it with humanity...and grown bitter, thus, more aggressive in her approach to dealing with the younger, rowdier, evil-er supers ("heroes" and villains).
Her donning the battle armor, the sword, shield and spear are meant to show that transition, which rather stirred some reaction from Superman.
it's meant to show a big character arc in Diana.
with the dcEu, Diana started WITH all the weapons.
Great topic and lol
You guys should go back and watch Superman 2 Superman was Superman for over a year & there was tons of destruction in the city & Superman killed General Zod.
Ohhh you shouldn't ever question our familiarity with those first two movies. You've opened a can of worms here.
The amount of destruction in Superman II is not even CLOSE to what happens in MoS. Not even REMOTELY close. Half the city in MoS is turned to dust, buildings knocked over and completely leveled, thousands upon thousands of citizens unquestionably killed.
But the biggest problem with all of that, though, is Superman expresses zero concern about all those people who are dying. In Superman II, it's the complete opposite. He repeatedly goes out of his way to save people, to the extent that Zod starts using it against him, which eventually leads Superman to go for the Hail Mary pass and lure them away from Metropolis to the Fortress.
Conversely, in MoS Superman actually pauses to make out with Lois while people are still trapped and dying in rubble. He could be zipping around saving as many people as possible before Zod comes at him again, but noooo. It's kissy time.
So my biggest problem with Superman killing Zod in MoS is it’s completely incongruous with what we'd just seen. It's like, oh NOW you care about people? You'll kill Zod to save one family, but screw the umpteen thousand people who just died while the city was turning to ash, apparently.
@@prodigioussaps you go TELL em, guys...
man, A LOT of CLUELESS people in the comments.
they do indeed make the perfect audience for snyder's ret**ded take on Superman and the other DC characters.
Yeah, not even close. Also, Superman left the scene in order to save the people from dying during the fight.
aside for the goofy CG mouth, Joss Whedon actually improved snyder's Superman as much as he could...with all the limitations put upon him.
if only WB had replaced snyder right after MoS....we could've gotten an actually great Superman movie with Henry Cavill, in a sequel. shame.
@@isuriadireja91 I don’t think so. Joss Whedon didn’t improve anything. I think I know what he was attempting, creatively. I think he might have wanted to make a modern big budget version of 70’s and 80’s product Super Friends. But, he was out of time and era, there. Speaking as a child of the 80’s, I would rather watch every single season and episode of Super Friends than watch Joss Whedon’s Justice League movie again. And, I freely admit the flaws of the animated series.
@@nickperkins8477 how would you know what he was really gonna do, if her was hired and do a Justice League movie from scratch instead of this patching job?
He's written one of the best X-Men storylines, in Astonishing X-Men...and he did TWO $ 1 billion Avengers movies, so....yeah, I DO believe Joss whould've done one heckuva job on a Justice League, if he was hired from the get go...and not as a last minute replacement.