Zoom call for Sauron; Pippen " who this be?" Sauron " hang on one sec, HEY GOTHMOG MALE ROOM IN THE TOURTURE CHAMBER, ok I'm back Hello..........hello you still there
I've been watching a few of your videos and I have to say that I think these might be the best videos on Tolkien's work on TH-cam. The brooding music, the choice of artwork, the narration, the production, all of those things set just the right mood. But the script stands above all else. Super well researched and the more speculative content isn't just based in hunches, overreaching, wishful thinking or whatever, as some of those other narrators tend to fall into. But you still tackle many of the more philosophical aspects of the myths (which is the right way to go about discussing myth in general) and I think you do them justice. I'm very impressed! And now I feel like doing a reread.
High praise! Thanks :) . I try to source everything but also make it clear when I am speculating. Of course, some interpretations may be wrong but I am always clear these are my interpretations. Always happy to have others share how they view it. A lot of people have found the channel recently and the content seems to be appealing to those looking for a bit of depth. I'm pleased with that.
I recall very clearly where I was in 1999 when I had the epiphany that one can never understand any trait, or characteristic, or motivation, or desire, or *_behavior_* in others better than one understands it in oneself. It is now evident to me that Tolkien must have known that truth, and that is one of the great lessons in LOTR - namely, that the malicious mind does not understand itself. Moreover, it does not want or seek to understand itself, which is why it ultimately cannot understand others. That might seem like massive irony, because those of ill will would seem to be so utterly self-prepossessed that you would think they know themselves better than they know anything else. But in truth, that is not the case at all, for the self that they know is the ego, which is a fiction. It is the self they want others to believe in, and they want it so desperately that they ultimately come to believe in it themselves. By that point, they are truly lost, and their destruction of the true self eventually is mirrored in the destruction of the fictitious self they have created. That is exactly what Sauron did, and what all tyrants do: they sow the seeds of their own destruction. Tolkien knew it. And this video convinces me that he knew it. The evil mind can only see the world through the prejudiced filter of its own malicious intent...and it ultimately reaps what it has sown. You have created yet another brilliantly insightful and penetratingly meaningful piece of work, _amigo._ Well done!
Couldn’t agree more with your assessment here! With Olórin spending his early days in Lorién and also going to Nienna to learn pity and patience, the Silmarillion says he became the wisest of the Maiar. Sauron could never hope to truly understand the threat he would impose, because it wasn’t measured with what he considered to be physical power. Whilst Curunir on the other hand, was more to Sauron’s understanding and he could easily relate to what he saw in him. Fast-forward to the third Age when he looks at the Istari and weighs their threat level and it explains alot! Another great video, Thanks!
Hope you enjoyed this look at Sauron and the Istari. As always, feel free to ask questions and leave your thoughts. I have some ideas for the next video and it may or may not be about the One Ring. We shall see what I feel like making! As I said in a recent community post, TH-cam recently allowed me to offer "memberships". Have a look and see if you are interested - th-cam.com/channels/POz2P0OxWp0ij0K4BsLsRw.htmljoin
I would like to see a video on the creation of living things. The Valar create all living things in Arda except for the Children of Ilúvatar, but the creation of life requires the use of the Flame Imperishable which is solely with Eru. So how is this disconnect bridged? 🤔
great video, one thing i would like to see at some point would be what happened from Sauron's perspective with the war of the ring and what led up to it, what did he know and when, what did he think and why did he do what he did, what plans did he make... there is a lot of videos from various creators but they all seem to be of everyone else perspective and even in this video it is only on the wizards themselves... (of course i might have not seen any that does this, i at least have found none)
Follow-up question on the subject: Why did Sauron not seem that concerned about Saruman or Gandalf obtaining the One Ring? I know the other rings enslaved men as Ringwraiths, but if Sauron knew Saruman to be similar to himself, wouldn’t he be more concerned?
Sauron comes across as a Zootechnist tho. He has created the werewolves, the fellbeasts, the olog-hai and some special breeds of orcs. He does know about animals to achieve these things he does not see them as the end goal tho.
@@draoidh6479 hi there! Forgive my ignorance, I thought that Sauron didn’t create anything (neither did Morgoth) but corrupted existing creatures? I’m not sure what was corrupted to create a dragon, but I would imagine werewolves were made from a similar ancestor to Bjorn? I also thought orocai were made by sauromon not Sauron
@@chucksolutions4579 You are right, Sauron and Morgoth couldn't create life from nothing. They way they created evil creatures is by corrupting other beings, often imbuing them with evil spirits. What that actually means and what "ancestors" were used to create them is mostly unanswered (except for orcs being corrupted elves). I imagine the werewolves were just regular wolves. Dragons are a tougher question, I'd guess they were not based on an existing animal but entirely Morgoth's design, who at this point presumably was an expert at corrupting and reshaping living beings and could have been able to use that to make entirely new creatures, though the limitation of requiring something that possesses life given to it by Eru Iluvatar as an "ingredient" remained.
Instead of "studying animals is a waste of time," perhaps it's better to describe Sauron's attitude as "being friends with animals to understand them _instead of_ subjugating/using them as nothing more than the tools they are is a waste of time."
Thanks Jesse! Feel free to suggest anything you think would be suitable for this type of content as well. Always happy to take ideas on board. Hope you enjoy the other videos!
I love the atmosphere, music, and overall production, as well as the thoughts being expressed. These kinds of speculative but well-researched explorations are what I hope for from this kind of content. One thing: I’m having a little trouble understanding everything that’s being saiid. Everything is so low and soft, without much in the way of dynamics, that I miss some consonants from time to time. Again, I love the feel, and I’m not sure anything needs to be changed, but I have to strain to listen sometimes.
Thanks for your thoughts here, I'm glad the content appeals to you. As for audio. Well, much like the video editing, all of this is very new to me. I use my natural volume when recording and with my accent as well I can understand the difficulty some might have! My plan is to invest in a better mic in the future, and I will attempt to focus more on the audio processing as well to see if I can improve things. I also make sure to have accurate subtitles on every video, though I know that won't help those who like to listen to videos instead of watching them. Hopefully, it's not too distracting! I've only had 2 or 3 comments about the audio since I started so I'll admit I've not thought of it as a big issue but i always want to improve the quality of the videos :D Cheers!
How the Machiavellian mind of 'Mairon' misreads events in Middle-Earth, completely - despite his superior cognition is arguably one of the greatest traits of Tolkiens writing.
@@Ty-ie2mi It's tempting to brush it off with one vice: superbia - but I think there's more to the story than mere moralization . Saruman was openly arrogant in his judgements - like a schoolmaster. We rarely get to _experience_ 'Mairon' speak (revealing character traits). In my impression, his fate is more like _a craftsman_ , being detached from the farmer - a profound *_alienation_* , before anything else.
I think this is your best video yet! It's such an interesting question that I, myself, as a Tolkien novice in understanding had never considered before, it once again makes me realize how much detail went into his writings, how fleshed out and lived in everything is. This was such a good video! Please keep doing what you are clearly qualified to do. Thank you and have a great day.
Cheers again Alex. I think it shows that a lot can be discussed even from a few lines or a paragraph of Tolkien's writings. It really interests me when I think of this relationship between Gandalf, Saruman, and Sauron. I definitely want to talk some more about Saruman and Sauron in future videos.
@@TheRedBook I think it's a great dynamic, I also think it's very interesting that all the strength, power and resources Sauron has, the simple fact that he's blind to anyone not having the same ambition and intentions to purely dominate and rule others is his undoing, I love the fact that Gandalf confuses him. Very good topic.
Funny how it relates to something Gandalf says to Aragorn when he's accused of speaking in riddles. "No! For I was talking aloud to myself. A habit of the old: they choose the wisest person present to speak to." I like this idea that with Sauron, it's always just himself. No one he can trust, no one he can seek counsel with. Its always just a Sauron thinking he knows best with everything.
@@alexshadowfax1119 - Remember that each of the Ainur represent a particular part of Eru's thought, with Melkor being the only well-rounded one of the bunch. As a counter-example, the Valar would have trouble in deciding what to do with Sauron, since Manwë cannot understand evil.
@@tominiowa2513 Interesting point! Just as Sauron couldn’t understand those who thought differently to him, the Valar maybe also couldn’t understand those who were not like them! It’s a unique comparison of the two opposing sides.
Great video. I like how you help to illustrate part of what defines Sauron as a villain is his complete inability to understand how anyone could be motivated by something other than a lust for power and domination over others. It makes sense why he’d try and form an alliance with Saruman and ignore Gandalf thinking he was simple or foolish since he didn’t seem ambitious enough to seek more power.
I thought it was important to mention this because it is somewhat absent from The Lord of the Rings. Understanding Sauron more requires reading some other works but it's obviously something I'd recommend doing anyway for those interested in Tolkien. I love the relationship between these three characters and definitely want to explore Saruman and Sauron in this way in more detail.
This video and your comment made me realize another way that Voldemort is similar to Sauron. Voldemort couldn’t understand love and selflessness, and those who were motivated by it, as he himself was focused on power and self preservation. When he tried to possess Harry’s body once, he felt physical pain from feeling the presence of love within Harry and quickly aborted the possession attempt, never to try it again. Voldemort also underestimated those without power or status, which contributed to his downfall.
The importance of Sauron's "communion" with Saruman cannot be overstated, in assessing how much he knew about the Wizards. First, this communication would have surely answered all of the Dark Lord's *technical* questions about who and what the Istari were, information that Saruman would not only have given up willingly, but indeed, had a hard time hiding in conversation. After all, Sauron would probably have recognized a fellow Maia of Aule instantly, and even personally, as a former friend. However, getting his information through Saruman would have had its drawbacks, as it would have been colored by Saruman's own prejudices, and this could have accounted for his dismissive attitude towards Gandalf and, presumably, Radagast.
The idea that he would recognise a Maia of Aule is one I have questioned. We just don't know how many of them existed, how they interacted, if their incarnated forms would have them appear differently, etc. Not arguing against your idea here, I just have questioned if they would recognise each other in Middle-earth, or if it was even just one way. I would think if they were former friends, it would have popped up in text somewhere. It seems more like Saruman admired and was also perhaps jealous of Sauron? He studied him, and it doesn't seem like he studied with him. Your last point is an interesting one and I do agree there. Though, even with Saruman dismissing Gandalf, he was still wise enough to know he was a far greater threat and of greater importance than Radagast. Gandalf was actively involved in the War of the Ring, Radagast wasn't. If Saruman did relay information to Sauron, he should have made Sauron more aware of Gandalf. It could be that Sauron is so egotistical that he would still dismiss him anyway.
@@TheRedBook I would say that, as with all evil beings, that Saruman didn't share all of what he knew with Sauron. Evil never trusts evil, they always keep something in their pocket for later. Even between Sauron and Melkor there were hidden drives, secret ideas, contingencies. Evil knows evil and evil knows evil betrays itself and is judiciously suspicious of it's fellow evil beings. In this understanding we see that Saruman followed Sauron's orders, except, he was going to get the ring for himself and planned to usurp the Dark Lord and become the New Dark Lord. Betrayal is baked in to evil because of it's very nature, same as the self-destructive, self-degenerating nature of evil.
@@meatybtz you are both wise and powerful and you are a far better Maia then I could ever hope to be. It won't be long until the Valar make you a master.
I'm not convinced that Sauron would have known Saruman was a Maia just by talking to him through the Palantir, or that Saruman would have told him. Saruman didn't worship Sauron, he just saw him as a necessary partner in his scheme. So I think he'd have wanted to play his cards pretty close to the chest. And we've seen that Palantir communication is pretty limited. Sauron isn't able to get much info out of Pippin, and thinks someone is using the Palantir to torture him. So he misreads the situation entirely, and we also learn that he sees things through the lens of his own experience and kind of jumps to conclusions. Part of me feels like Sauron is so arrogant that he doesn't really care what Saruman is. Or Gandalf. Or why they're in Middle Earth. Just some pissant magicians who impress the rubes. Not people to be given much attention by one such as he. And maybe his hubris was so off the charts that he knew they were Maiar and still felt that they were beneath him. Which might be why the Mouth calls Gandalf Gandalf instead of Olórin, almost as a sign of disrespect rather than ignorance. Sauron might have know he was Olórin but used his common name to show his low regard and diminish him.
@@TheRedBook saruman himself is egotistical as well though. If he tells the dark lord about a more powerful wizard, wouldnt saruman think the dark lord would replace him? Thus he wouldnt speak of him.
This is very interesting. I have never thought about what Sauron knows about the Istari, nither have I ever considered that he could lack knowledge nor undersandig about them, since he himself is a maiar. And this (I think) is particularly interesting, since it raises the issue of Sauron thinking of himself as superior to other maiar, hence willingly ignoring them as being too inferior, in his own mind, to himself. Very profound and complex the thinking of Tolkien regarding evil beings.
Reminds me of my own less grand obsevations here in the real world of dishonest people; criminals even. They have a blind spot when it comes to _honest_ people. They cannot comprehend that there are genuinely honest folk and believe that everybody is likely to make the choices they would make if they have the opportunity and wit to do so. They believe their victims are just not as good at it, as skilled at _life,_ as they are. So Sauron could understand Saruman but was incapable of understanding Gandalf. While Tolkien's fictional characters were not of our world, the author himself was and I feel his experience of people must have been similar to this.
That's part of a bigger phenomenon where people can't fathom that other people have differing motivations, ways of thinking and emotional triggers or pressures. We (partly) know one person (ourselves) and everyone else (with perhaps a few exceptions) is often treated as a projection of ourselves -- as you say, ''what would I do in that person's position?'' and ''if I was behaving like that then what would be the reasons?''. People tend to be narrow-minded, if not ignorant; having and knowing only one experience (their own).
“Well, let folly be our cloak, a veil before the eyes of the Enemy! For he is very wise, and weighs all things to a nicety in the scales of his malice. But the only measure that he knows is desire, desire for power; and so he judges all hearts. Into his heart the thought will not enter that any will refuse it, that having the Ring we may seek to destroy it. If we seek this, we shall put him out of reckoning.”
Reminds me of the largely economic concept that humans are rational beings and will thus act rationally, ie in own self interest most of the time. Makes sense to a point, but the reality is more complex.
I once had a boss, who rather weirdly, lectured me to "need to become more devious"... this was just before he was fired for poaching staff for a competitor... ironically... he also lost his post over there as well😉 so much for his worldly wisdom...
Interesting and enjoyable study of Gandalf and Sauron. Interesting that Sauron controled Saruman by using his desires, and could not dominate Gandalf because his desires were noble. It reminds me of the theme of the ring being able to corrupt Boromir through his desires, but not the hobbits because their desires were more humble.
Yes, you are right. It's also one reason why Tom Bombadil acts the way he does with the ring. It holds no power over him due to a complete lack of interest in the domination of other minds and intelligences. It's also why Faramir isn't 'tempted'. He understands the ring and what it would do if he used it.
Excellent as always. I had pondered on this question as Gandalf mentions (I think in TTT) that he doesn't want to yet reveal himself to Sauron, which would imply that he feared that by doing this it might put the cat amongst the trees so to speak. Anyway, an interesting topic and well investigated here, thanks for the vid :)
Interesting point. That could certainly be related to the fact that Gandalf has returned to Middle-earth and has seemingly replaced Saruman. If Sauron could work this out then it would have been extremely worrying for him. It would give rise to the idea that forces greater than him were now directly working against him.
@@TheRedBook Oh yeah. That had the potential to go FUBAR. A panicking dark lord would have done things way differently. Either Sauron pulling everyone back to protect mordor or sauron deciding to go out swinging with his full forces and might would have spelled disaster for everyone.
@@zacharyhawley1693 - An argument can probably be made for either of those possibilites. Going full terrified Morgoth and hiding out in his fortress surrounded by his forces until they come for him, or just releasing the full strength of Mordor. I'd probably go for the former, it's more in keeping with a fearful Dark Lord...
I think it’s more implied that Gandalf did not wish for Sauron to know that he had been sent back. All could see that Gandalf was changed upon his return, Sauron would have been able to tell that there was some sort of divine intervention behind Gandalf’s return, not all could.
I just found your channel. I really like how you reference your video with lots of quotes directly from Tolkien's works. In most other TH-cam channels the channels' authors usually just give a summary of what they have researched, and I just assume I've gotten the gist of what the subject matter is all about. But now I see I've been missing a lot of the substance and depth of these topics, via Tolkien's own words. And so, for the first time, I am beginning to realize how deeply and thoroughly Tolkien thought about and cared about his legendarium and its characters. Sure, I believe that Tolkien's works had depth and breadth, but I don't believe I knew, or know, to what extent. I am actually in awe of how he understood the type of being Sauron is, and Gandalf, and Saruman, and what motivates and informs them. I think they are archetypes for people we see and know of in the real world. This is deep psychology and sociology, stuff that we are still working to understand today in those fields. I'm amazed, and curious as to how deeply Tolkien saw not just into his own characters but also how he saw into the people, relationships and society around him, and how that understanding probably informed his work. I've always loved Middle Earth and Tolkien's creations. Now I'm even more curious about it all. Thanks for the great research and presentation.
Thanks Chris. I share your sentiments about not only the depth of his writing and characters (something overlooked) but how they really can be applied to our own world. People tend to just shout about him hating allegory but they forget that he was well aware that applicability was something he understood and accepted. Some of the quotes I read are quite long but I only do that if I think it's really important for the topic at hand. I try and back up what I'm saying but also make it clear that this channel is about how I interpret Tolkien. If people disagree, that's fine, but I hope it allows people the opportunity to think about these topics if they haven't before.
@@TheRedBook Thanks for the reply. Perhaps Tolkien didn't write in allegory in the sense that the world he built, the characters he created, and the stories he wove were so detailed and deep that they were real to him. Sure, the real world informed him of course, but he built his own almost-real world on its own merits, to stand on its own, so there was no direct or one-to-one allegory, such as the War of the Ring being based on WW2 or whatever. To extrapolate further on what I was saying before, it seems to me that Tolkien had a very discerning and clear-eyed understanding of peoples' hearts and minds and what motivated them. The way he built the characters of Sauron/Saruman and Gandalf shows amazing insight. For instance, the fact that Sauron couldn't conceive of anyone having motivations beyond/better than his own is one characteristic reminiscent of a malignant narcissist in today's parlance. And Gandalf's ability to see wisdom as having empathy and seeing things from different/others' points of view is the antithesis of Sauron's world view. Also, Gandalf represented the ability to evolve and transform. There is so much to it. I appreciate your thoughts and sharing these great videos with us. I'm not so much concerned with whether or no I agree with you than with the fact that you have made me think. I very much like that. Thank you.
Not a problem. I like sharing my own thoughts but also reading what other people think. I like your understanding of these characters and what sets them apart. There's enough to make content entirely focused on subjects like this :) Thanks for sharing!
@@TheRedBook Yes, this is engaging stuff. Love it. It's great that you're open to discussing it and sharing your insight in your videos, as well as in the comments. Great presentation and production, by the way! I look forward to going through what you've already done, and seeing what you come up with on your future videos
@@dreemdazer - With the sudden popularity of this video, it's certainly been harder to keep up with the comments! I love talking Tolkien though. I don't want to just make videos and move on. I like reading what people think and there are plenty who disagree with what I say, which is what makes Tolkien so interesting. Means we can always have something to discuss. Thanks :D I've worked a lot in trying to make the videos look better. It's why I take longer now to make them. My older ones had a bit less going on in them. I think my videos over the past month or two have been way better! Hopefully, you find more videos you like :)
I think you're one of the only tolkien channels who seems to have actually read the 'history of middle earth' volumes, lost tales, fall of gondolin etc, most tolkien content creators have a couple of lotr/hobbit reads under their belt, and possibly a skimmed reading of the silmarillion/appendices. Which leads them to make generalised statements and speculation and state the 'obvious'. You provide genuinely intuitive insight and referencing to the deepest and most specific source material possible, instead of just profiting off a major IP like most other tolkien creators sadly, and I highly commend you for it! I think I speak for a lot of tolkien readers when I say that this type of integrity and seriousness is what is sorely missing from tolkien content in the modern day (especially given the recent show that shall not be named) Thankyou.
@@TheRedBook - The only real miss is every time someone sings it sounds like they wandered in from a Broadway musical, which is certainly not what Tolkien had in mind.
@@tominiowa2513 - One reason why I hope I never have to read out a quote on a video where it's singing involved! There are also some glaring pronounciation errors and I don't mean Tolkien's words. Draught, Brooch, and some others always come to mind. Still, that's not that big a deal!
I often wonder how that first encounter between Sauron and Saruman went. If Saruman was quick and addressed Sauron by saying, "So Lord Sauron, you do indeed hold the Stone of Ithil as I thought." or something like that, then Sauron probably wouldn't try to control Saruman's mind through the Palantir, which would enable Saruman to lie to him and get away with it. How else would Saruman have been able to keep his true thoughts from Sauron?
Methinks your take on the "War of Wrath" and the forty year conflict between all the forces of Morgoth versus the gathered hosts of Valinor and their mighty allies would be a worthy discussion. In particular, the mere fact it laid total waste to such a piece of the world roughly the size of western Europe---what caused that?
Nice idea David, an exploration of the War of Wrath would be good, especially since the finished tale in The Silmarillion is just so short. It blends ideas of Tolkien's final battle, older versions of the Host of the Valar. Worthy of exploration.
Excellent channel. I watch 3 other LOTR oriented ones and I love them, yet this one stands out. Thank you very much for some more insight into this magnificent realm.
Just found your channel - all hail the mighty Algor Rivem. ;) On a serious note, really like your approach and style. I look forward to seeing some more videos. Thanks!
You got me there, was saying the name out loud and was about to Google 😂. Glad it helped so many find this video. Plenty to look back on and more to come!
I have the same thought regarding the relationships of Miair with repsect to Balrogs - Gandolf "I have slain Durin's bain!"; Sauron "You killed Fred? Jeez! The three of us were on the same CYO team in grade school!"
Is there an audiobook with those voices? They are amazing. I felt like i was charmed by some powerful spell when i heard them. And you channel is astonishing
Cheers, Derek. A couple of people have left weird comments about my voice (as if I can change how I can talk!). Glad you and the majority seem fine with it.
As someone who deeply appreciates Tolkien-related art, I must say you have quite the taste to choose some fine artwork for your videos, some Renaissance-type art pieces which really match the elevated tone of the tales Tolkien told. I particularly like the Hildebrandts, Ted Nasmith, John Howe and Alan Lee, but the pieces you choose are right up there with them.
It's one of the fun parts of making the videos and also one of the most time consuming, especially now that I am only really trying to use artwork from artists who have given permission. It also allows me to commission artwork as well. Some unbelievable talent out there when you see the artwork.
Hi! Great video, I'm glad your content is spreading through TH-cam as your channel grows. May I ask why you said that both Gandalf and Saruman were Aule's people? Because everywhere I see, Gandalf was of Manwe's...
Thanks :) And I didn't say Gandalf was...unless I misspoke? Can you point me to where that was said? I was talking about Saruman and Sauron as Aule's people.
14:28 he had a point. Even Frodo succumbed to the Ring at the end. It just so happened that Gollum was there at the same time. But Frodo couldn't actually destroy the Ring.
Yeah but that's only one character. Tolkien wouldn't have said "so he thought" if it was some universal truth. Several figures touch the ring and pass it on, Sam holds it longer - refuses its temptation and gives it back to Frodo, Faramir sees through it, Aragorn doesn't seize it when he could, Gandalf refuses it when offered, Galadriel refuses it when offered. To Sauron, none of those powerful figures should have refused such power.
@@TheRedBook Frodo refused the temptation of the ring. Initially. But even he gives up, once he stands on Mount Doom. Sauron was right in that he thought the Ring was indestructible. When an honest hobbit couldn't do it, no one could.
@@CharlesOffdensen - I still disagree. It goes against Tolkien's entire point related to Sauron's thoughts about the ring. I'll stick with "so he thought".
My 2 cents: Sauron could not CONCIEVE of anyone even trying to destroy the One Ring. To reject power that completely. It did not cross his mind as something to be worried about. At least, not until Gollum trips...
@@TheRedBook The Ring tempts Isildur who has everything he's loved ruined by Sauron. It has a malign intelligence of its own - Smeagol saw it and murdered his own cousin within minutes.
@@LordMortanius yes, those are certainly figures who were tempted to take or keep the ring but there are still others who could have attempted to take it and didn't.
It's really interesting that the most powerful ones often peril by their own actions of wanting to prove everyone they have more power, or, wanting to dominate it all, megalomaniacally, instead of sticking to their established positions of power. As that old quote: "greed precedes ruin".
Why would Saruman think Manwë's motivations for sending the Istari would be about recolonizing Middle-Earth? Had he been so thoroughly corrupted by Morgoth that he simply viewed any being with power as basically wanting the same things as he (Sauron) wanted? I'm assuming that back in his days as Mairon he had some knowledge of Manwë through the latter's role as head of the Ainur (except Morgoth) who went to Arda and through his (Mairon's) association with the Aulë.
I think you are right. Sauron believes those with power and wisdom would act in accordance with himself, whom he viewed as wise and powerful. The Changing of the World had Sauron view Middle-earth as essentially being 'abandoned' and the fact that these emissaries arrived would be purely for the benefit of the Valar, without the blessing of Eru. With Middle-earth's inhabitants abandoned, for what reason would they send figures across the sea? To gain a foothold once again, to establish a presence but purely for their own authority, a retainment of it. The idea that they were sending figures to help its inhabitants would be foreign to Sauron. Why wouldn't they send a force like they did with his master? It's Sauron showing his narrow vision due to his continued fall into evil and pride.
Very interesting! Maybe you should make a video about why Aule's maiar are the ones being corrupted (that we know of), if there is anything to say about it?
I am curious if Sauron recognized Saruman from the early days of the Lamps, or if he was busy with other thoughts (I remember few of my elementary school friends other than those i kept in contact with).
There's no evidence that Sauron knew Saruman from ages past. Even after learning more about Saruman through his dealings with him in the Third Age, it is never said that Sauron knew him as a fellow Maia of Aulë. Some may say that he should have known due to having such a familiar origin but we also don't know just how many of the Maiar served a particular Vala. We also don't know much about the hierarchy of those who did. Sauron was particularly gifted, seemingly greater than Saruman. Perhaps he never knew him. Perhaps he joined Melkor early. It's unfortunately not something that can be answered from the text!
@@TheRedBook - Does the knowledge of each other from the void/First Music transfer over when the Ainur take up Eru's offer to enter the world and be bound to it? Of course all the Maiar we know about in Middle Earth take on physical forms that they did not have at all in the void and different from those that they had used in Valinor.
@@tominiowa2513 I don't see why the knowledge and understanding from the music wouldn't go with them as they entered the world but there's still no indication of who knew each other. The spirits that became the Maiar hearkened to the greater spirits but I can't imagine how many spirits took part. We know that there were many spirits who didn't descend into the world. The Maiar could be in numbers untold. Would they all 'know' each other?
@@MohamedRamadan-qi4hl - Yes but with countless other spirits too. Who is to say Saruman wouldn't recognise the greater spirit Sauron while he has no idea who Saruman is? No evidence to suggest they knew enough other beforehand. Though, I'm not against the idea :)
Ultimately, it was the Hobbits as a community that was developed as a passive/aggressive weapon of covert battle. What evolved within the race of Hobbits was their innately imbued ability to resist the corrupting powers of The One Ring. They could be masochistically lured by its power, but not consumed by its motive desire to oppressively dominate. Gollum, a subverted Hobbit, never developed the desire to rule over others. He loved The One Ring, but not as an super-energetic amphetamine to enhance domination, but more like an opioid depressant. As Aragorn realized at his coronation, it was the Hobbits that won the day for his own ascendancy. And not just Bilbo and Frodo, but especially Smeagol , who decisively and quite selfishly sacrificed himself to destroy The One Ring of Power.
I think it should not go unnoticed that both Saruman and Sauron were Maiar of Aule; and that Melkor adn Aule were the most alike in general focus of interest, being that of the matter of the earth and industry.
Around 4:15 begins the insight regarding how Sauron might misunderstand Gandalf. There's no need to repeat that insight but I thought it was a really interesting exploration of how the villain of the story might understand one of its great heroes
This video gave a big boost to the channel. Views went up by 2000 percent and my subs more than doubled in a week. I'm on a bad run at the moment though. Terrible views.
I always figured The foul mouth of Sauron the Great, had an old English accent "would you like a spot of tea? Yeeeeaaaaassssssssssss" I think the wooden teeth are a smashing success
Stunningly well-delivered video, good sir. As for ideas to pursue, I wonder if Ulmo speaks through others in the Third Age as he did with Tuor in the Second. Sam in Shelobe’s lair, for example, where he lifts the vial of Galadriel while dropping mad lines of Elvish chants… having no idea how to speak Elvish…
Thank you! That's an interesting question. I will take this into consideration but, just thinking of it at the moment, it probably wouldn't involve Ulmo. I'd lean more towards Elbereth herself, the power of words, faith/hope, etc. I think it could certainly be interesting enough for a video. I'e been looking at the power of names, especially Elbereth, and this ties in directly with it.
Honestly I've really got into Tolkien again the last few months and been going through a deep dive on the lore and yours has been some of the most satisfying content I've watched. Look forward to seeing this channel grow!
@@simonvegas793 - Great to hear! I've got about 30 videos so far. This one has been by far the most viewed. Been a lot of growth for the channel in just a few days. Hoping people keep liking the content going forward. Got plenty more ideas.
Since we are often led to believe that Eru Illuvatar is all-knowing, even the worst events are part of His plan, and those who struggle to change it are merely playing their role, as intended, I wonder if maybe that is, in part, why Saruman was sent, despite his own character flaws? He served as a valuable distraction, and misdirection for Sauron. By gauging his opposition by the White Wizard, Sauron perhaps made lesser decisions, and kept his attention where it wasn't as useful. It's tragic what he caused, but if it maybe slowed Sauron's take of their intentions, or the strength of his foes, maybe Saruman still served a purpose, and allowed the likes of Gandalf more freedom of movement, without the scrutiny of the Dark Lord.
This is an absolute gem of a channel. I'd say "under-commented" but what do I even say? I'm being educated on lore that I'm under-educated on. I had read these books when I was MUCH younger; really, too young to really appreciate, so thanks for increasing my appreciation of Tolkien's works!
Interesting ideas in there, but two observations... 1). It seems reasonable to think that the greatest of the elves could be more powerful than a maiar spirit. I suspect Glorfindel was... especially once he returned. 2). As maiar spirits, the istari were of the unseen world and, I suspect, Sauron would have "seen" them as what they truly were. I would further speculate that seeing their true self would also give him some understanding of who they served. Although that wouldn't, necessarily allow him to understand their motives.
1 - Tolkien talks about Glorfindel's return and says his sacrifice and noble spirit made him nigh as great as the Maiar. He's never described as being greater. 2 - This is a possibility but we also have to remember they were cloaked in very real bodies of men. This was intended to hide the spirit within - but what this means for someone like Sauron viewing them, is perhaps unknown.
My basic argument for #1 is that, Glorfindel died killing a Balrog. He then returned still yet more powerful. Gandalf, as a Maiar spirit, died killing a Balrog. (Of course, he was sent back still yet more powerful.)
@@josephbenson4413 - Of course but Tolkien himself does say nigh as great. I'd think he would say greater if he meant it. Gandalf is a different case. He was incarnated, meaning he fought the Balrog while cloaked in the body of a man. Plus, it was written at a time when Balrogs had been changed in the Legendarium to become far more formidable and divine beings.
Sauron's recognition of Istari is mentioned in the "Tale of Galadriel and Celeborn" of Unfinished Tales as follows: "Arriving in Eregion, Sauron, posing as an emissary sent to Middle-earth by the Valar (and proving that she had foreseen the Istari's arrival by doing so) claimed to have been ordered to stay there to aid the Elves." and "He hides his true identity in order to mingle with the Noldor people, and takes on a beautiful appearance (in fact, this is a kind of imitation he makes by anticipating the appearance of Istari, who will be sent to Middle-earth in the future) and a beautiful name." I think this statement is an indication that Sauron knew the Istari and predicted what course of action the Valar would adopt.
These quotes aren't exactly the same ones as in the book. Where are you getting them from? The quote from Unfinished Tales actually says "thus anticipating the Istari" which means something different. That means his appearance was a precursor, he was acting as a forerunner.
@@TheRedBook How did Sauron present himself to the Elves as an emissary of the Valar? Did he come to the Grey Havens in a ship? If so, how did he pull that off? If not, why would they trust that he came from Valinor?
@@Enerdhil - I promise I don't do this on purpose to avoid answering questions..because I seem to say it a lot. I am 100% doing a video at some point about just what they took him for. Basically, explaining how Sauron managed to pull it off. My issue, as always, is that I try not to do constant Sauron videos in a row! It will come though. Others can obviously provide an answer in the comments but I am saving the detail for a video.
I'm curious about what Saruman was doing in the east for so long. He was there for around 1500 years and no one knows what he was up to. Was he helping the Blue Wizards get set up and help them begin their campaigns of rebellion against Sauron? Was he scouting out places where Sauron might hide? He missed the downfall of Arnor completely. You might think Aule might want him to help the Longbeards out with their Balrog infestation, but nope, Saruman is absent for that too. He doesn't pop back up until Sauron has rebuilt his power in Dol Guldor and the Ringwraiths are firmly ensconced in Minas Ithil (now Minas Morgul for @ 60 years). The situation in the West has nearly deteriorated to the point where the Lord of the Rings begins almost a thousand years later. Only then does the White Wizard show his face in the west. We know he takes up residence in Orthanc in 2759 TA. Has he become corrupted by this point or is Gandalf just someone he doesn't get along with because of jealousy or perceived slights? I get the sense that he fails in his mandate when he forsakes his ambassadorship for personal power perhaps when he finds the treasury in Orthanc especially the Palantir. I don't know when he fell to evil. Perhaps it was after crafting his own Ring of Power, or perhaps finding and desecrating the remains of Isildur? What do you think?
Add to this that the Istari arrive in Middle Earth at approximately the same time as Sauron sets himself up in Dol Guldur as the Necromancer, so countering Sauron would no longer be limited to activities in the far east of Rhûn.
Saruman was envious of Gandalf beginning from the time when the Valar selected which Maia would be sent to Middle-Earth. He basically believed that Gandalf was getting more respect than Gandalf deserved and that it was coming at Saruman's expense. I would say by the time Saruman started searching for the One without letting the White Council know what he was doing and misleading them by saying the One had rolled out into the ocean he was truly evil. It could have been earlier though; I'm no expert on the timeline of Saruman's activities in Middle-Earth.
@@istari0 - I have wondered about the White Council accepting the claim that the One Ring had been washed out to sea by the Anduin. Was Saruman in such a position that everyone would accept a claim of the negative (i.e., the One Ring is no longer in Middle Earth*) which is not provable without a positive somewhere else (e.g., we can sense the Ring's presence through this method I devised, and it is here under 2,000 fathoms of water) without question? *Note that Middle Earth refers to a specific continent, not the entire world.
@@tominiowa2513 The rest of the Council regarded as Saruman as their authority on the Rings of Power. You couple that with the ability of Saruman to influence others by the power of his voice alone and it sounds like the Council took him at his word. This was all before they knew Saruman was betraying them and possibly even before he did so. There's also the possibility that at first Saruman genuinely believed that was what had happened to the One.
@@istari0 - "Others" included Gandalf, Galadriel, Elrond and Círdan, none of whom were that easily influenced by the power of others or wet behind the ears by T.A. 2851.
I don't see why not, to be honest. From what I know, they aren't allowed to change fundamental parts of the story. Adding the Blue Wizards as characters wouldn't do that. They'd be free to add them, create stories for them, and basically do what they will.
@@Darkwintre - Not in any great detail. Letter 211 says that Tolkien suspected they were foudners or beginners of secret cults or 'magic' traditions that outlasted the fall of Sauron. In his late writings he was a bit more optimistic and said their task was to circumvent Sauron: to bring help to the few tribes of Men that had rebelled from Melkor-worship, to stir up rebellion ... and after his first fall to search out his hiding (in which they failed) and to cause [?dissension and disarray] among the dark East ... They must have had very great influence on the history of the Second Age and Third Age in weakening and disarraying the forces of East ... who would both in the Second Age and Third Age otherwise have ... outnumbered the West."
@@TheRedBook Ah yes I notice it now. A tip - take a look into both Compression and Normalization for your Audio feed (Normalization is more so relevant to your stuff). It’ll drastically improve your Audio quality levels without blowing out the high end with ‘poppy’ sibilance.
I loved the scene in Two Towers, where Sauron communicates with Pippin. What exactly did Pippin see? Certainly not the Eye in the Jackson films. Tolkien indicates that Sauron actually had a physical form based on the comment of Gollum about "nine fingers". Gollum was brought before the seat of Sauron. What did he see? I would've loved to have seen this represented in the movies, LOTR or The Hobbit....
Did Sauron knew about the Balrog of Moria? Because if he knew, at the point after battle of helm's deep he would know not only Gandalf brought death to Smaug, but also defeated a Balrog of the old days located in Moria. He would be like: this guy is in fire. Better hurry up and win the game while he still farming monsters around the map.
There's no evidence to suggest he knew a Balrog was there and definitely none to suggest that he knew Gandalf had defeated it. For all we know, Sauron may have still thought Gandalf the White was the same figure that had been wandering Middle-earth for centuries. Saruman knew, but he lost the Palantir. Gandalf did confront Sauron to aid Frodo at Amon Hen, perhaps he sensed it there? But we just don't have enough information to be sure of what Sauron knew of Gandalf's change and of the Balrog itself, unfortunately.
@@TheRedBook Yea, and it's hard to imagine Sauron caring much that Gandalf changes his clothes. If he even notices that is. I'm led to believe that Sauron's visibility of the wider world was pretty limited. He consistently misjudges and underestimates things. I think part of it is hubris but also largely just lack of information.
Some things are missing here - Sauron definetely knew exactly what the Istari were. Gandalf was in Dol Guldur and escaped. At least then Sauron knew exactly what the Istari were, as he must have felt Gandalfs "presence/might", as all Maias were able to feel/sense other mighty Maias. Also the White Council atracked Sauron at Dol Guldur...and if he was able to just count 1+1 together, he knew very well why the Valar had sent them. So, at least at the late third age, Sauron knew exactly the Istari were there to work against him. And Saurons Mouth clearly said that Sauron knew about Gandalfs journeys. So Sauron observed what Gandalf was doing. And he did not do this by incident. He did this because he always knew the Istari were there to work against him.
![30 ชั่วโมงคนเดียว บนรถไฟชั้น 3 โซเวียต [Around The World Ep. 2]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/MlE9boAVqDA/mqdefault.jpg)
"When a hobbit name peregrin tuk accidentally communicated with a dark lord maia"😆 -I could only imagine the frustration sauron had at that time!
Imagine being Hitler and getting miscalled by a kid from Mexico 😂
Zoom call for Sauron;
Pippen " who this be?"
Sauron " hang on one sec, HEY GOTHMOG MALE ROOM IN THE TOURTURE CHAMBER, ok I'm back
Hello..........hello you still there
I've been watching a few of your videos and I have to say that I think these might be the best videos on Tolkien's work on TH-cam. The brooding music, the choice of artwork, the narration, the production, all of those things set just the right mood. But the script stands above all else. Super well researched and the more speculative content isn't just based in hunches, overreaching, wishful thinking or whatever, as some of those other narrators tend to fall into. But you still tackle many of the more philosophical aspects of the myths (which is the right way to go about discussing myth in general) and I think you do them justice. I'm very impressed! And now I feel like doing a reread.
High praise! Thanks :) . I try to source everything but also make it clear when I am speculating. Of course, some interpretations may be wrong but I am always clear these are my interpretations. Always happy to have others share how they view it. A lot of people have found the channel recently and the content seems to be appealing to those looking for a bit of depth. I'm pleased with that.
Completely agree. There's a few tho. Also, Becca Tarnas is a boss on Redbook geniuses. And She weaves them like she was married to Aule.
I agree, well done in tone and content
I recall very clearly where I was in 1999 when I had the epiphany that one can never understand any trait, or characteristic, or motivation, or desire, or *_behavior_* in others better than one understands it in oneself. It is now evident to me that Tolkien must have known that truth, and that is one of the great lessons in LOTR - namely, that the malicious mind does not understand itself. Moreover, it does not want or seek to understand itself, which is why it ultimately cannot understand others.
That might seem like massive irony, because those of ill will would seem to be so utterly self-prepossessed that you would think they know themselves better than they know anything else. But in truth, that is not the case at all, for the self that they know is the ego, which is a fiction. It is the self they want others to believe in, and they want it so desperately that they ultimately come to believe in it themselves.
By that point, they are truly lost, and their destruction of the true self eventually is mirrored in the destruction of the fictitious self they have created. That is exactly what Sauron did, and what all tyrants do: they sow the seeds of their own destruction. Tolkien knew it. And this video convinces me that he knew it. The evil mind can only see the world through the prejudiced filter of its own malicious intent...and it ultimately reaps what it has sown.
You have created yet another brilliantly insightful and penetratingly meaningful piece of work, _amigo._ Well done!
I watch your videos often when I'm feeling down or not able to sleep. Thank you ❤
Couldn’t agree more with your assessment here! With Olórin spending his early days in Lorién and also going to Nienna to learn pity and patience, the Silmarillion says he became the wisest of the Maiar. Sauron could never hope to truly understand the threat he would impose, because it wasn’t measured with what he considered to be physical power. Whilst Curunir on the other hand, was more to Sauron’s understanding and he could easily relate to what he saw in him. Fast-forward to the third Age when he looks at the Istari and weighs their threat level and it explains alot! Another great video, Thanks!
Hope you enjoyed this look at Sauron and the Istari. As always, feel free to ask questions and leave your thoughts. I have some ideas for the next video and it may or may not be about the One Ring. We shall see what I feel like making!
As I said in a recent community post, TH-cam recently allowed me to offer "memberships". Have a look and see if you are interested - th-cam.com/channels/POz2P0OxWp0ij0K4BsLsRw.htmljoin
I would like to see a video on the creation of living things. The Valar create all living things in Arda except for the Children of Ilúvatar, but the creation of life requires the use of the Flame Imperishable which is solely with Eru. So how is this disconnect bridged? 🤔
@@tominiowa2513 - Hello. Yes, I can answer that question and it would make for a good video. I'll consider it for the future
great video, one thing i would like to see at some point would be what happened from Sauron's perspective with the war of the ring and what led up to it, what did he know and when, what did he think and why did he do what he did, what plans did he make... there is a lot of videos from various creators but they all seem to be of everyone else perspective and even in this video it is only on the wizards themselves...
(of course i might have not seen any that does this, i at least have found none)
You have totally earned my subscription!
Follow-up question on the subject: Why did Sauron not seem that concerned about Saruman or Gandalf obtaining the One Ring? I know the other rings enslaved men as Ringwraiths, but if Sauron knew Saruman to be similar to himself, wouldn’t he be more concerned?
That was an excellent explanation of what sauron knew of the wizards. Thanks
Sauron: "Studying animals is a waste of time."
Morgoth: "Hahaha! Dragons go brrrrrr!"
Sauron comes across as a
Zootechnist tho. He has created the werewolves, the fellbeasts, the olog-hai and some special breeds of orcs. He does know about animals to achieve these things he does not see them as the end goal tho.
@@draoidh6479 hi there! Forgive my ignorance, I thought that Sauron didn’t create anything (neither did Morgoth) but corrupted existing creatures? I’m not sure what was corrupted to create a dragon, but I would imagine werewolves were made from a similar ancestor to Bjorn? I also thought orocai were made by sauromon not Sauron
@@chucksolutions4579 You are right, Sauron and Morgoth couldn't create life from nothing. They way they created evil creatures is by corrupting other beings, often imbuing them with evil spirits. What that actually means and what "ancestors" were used to create them is mostly unanswered (except for orcs being corrupted elves). I imagine the werewolves were just regular wolves. Dragons are a tougher question, I'd guess they were not based on an existing animal but entirely Morgoth's design, who at this point presumably was an expert at corrupting and reshaping living beings and could have been able to use that to make entirely new creatures, though the limitation of requiring something that possesses life given to it by Eru Iluvatar as an "ingredient" remained.
@@draoidh6479 I always felt like Sauron looked at these things as tools, Morgoth wanted to create from the ground up and was unable.
Instead of "studying animals is a waste of time," perhaps it's better to describe Sauron's attitude as "being friends with animals to understand them _instead of_ subjugating/using them as nothing more than the tools they are is a waste of time."
This was fascinating. I appreciate your essay-like study of Tolkien. On my days off, I sincerely look forward to listening to your other videos.
Thanks Jesse! Feel free to suggest anything you think would be suitable for this type of content as well. Always happy to take ideas on board.
Hope you enjoy the other videos!
I love the atmosphere, music, and overall production, as well as the thoughts being expressed. These kinds of speculative but well-researched explorations are what I hope for from this kind of content.
One thing: I’m having a little trouble understanding everything that’s being saiid. Everything is so low and soft, without much in the way of dynamics, that I miss some consonants from time to time. Again, I love the feel, and I’m not sure anything needs to be changed, but I have to strain to listen sometimes.
Thanks for your thoughts here, I'm glad the content appeals to you.
As for audio. Well, much like the video editing, all of this is very new to me. I use my natural volume when recording and with my accent as well I can understand the difficulty some might have!
My plan is to invest in a better mic in the future, and I will attempt to focus more on the audio processing as well to see if I can improve things. I also make sure to have accurate subtitles on every video, though I know that won't help those who like to listen to videos instead of watching them.
Hopefully, it's not too distracting! I've only had 2 or 3 comments about the audio since I started so I'll admit I've not thought of it as a big issue but i always want to improve the quality of the videos :D
Cheers!
How the Machiavellian mind of 'Mairon' misreads events in Middle-Earth, completely - despite his superior cognition is arguably one of the greatest traits of Tolkiens writing.
Arrogance.
@@Ty-ie2mi
It's tempting to brush it off with one vice: superbia - but I think there's more to the story than mere moralization .
Saruman was openly arrogant in his judgements - like a schoolmaster.
We rarely get to _experience_ 'Mairon' speak (revealing character traits).
In my impression, his fate is more like _a craftsman_ , being detached from the farmer - a profound *_alienation_* , before anything else.
I think this is your best video yet! It's such an interesting question that I, myself, as a Tolkien novice in understanding had never considered before, it once again makes me realize how much detail went into his writings, how fleshed out and lived in everything is. This was such a good video! Please keep doing what you are clearly qualified to do. Thank you and have a great day.
Cheers again Alex. I think it shows that a lot can be discussed even from a few lines or a paragraph of Tolkien's writings. It really interests me when I think of this relationship between Gandalf, Saruman, and Sauron. I definitely want to talk some more about Saruman and Sauron in future videos.
@@TheRedBook I think it's a great dynamic, I also think it's very interesting that all the strength, power and resources Sauron has, the simple fact that he's blind to anyone not having the same ambition and intentions to purely dominate and rule others is his undoing, I love the fact that Gandalf confuses him. Very good topic.
Funny how it relates to something Gandalf says to Aragorn when he's accused of speaking in riddles.
"No! For I was talking aloud to myself. A habit of the old: they choose the wisest person present to speak to."
I like this idea that with Sauron, it's always just himself. No one he can trust, no one he can seek counsel with. Its always just a Sauron thinking he knows best with everything.
@@alexshadowfax1119 - Remember that each of the Ainur represent a particular part of Eru's thought, with Melkor being the only well-rounded one of the bunch.
As a counter-example, the Valar would have trouble in deciding what to do with Sauron, since Manwë cannot understand evil.
@@tominiowa2513 Interesting point! Just as Sauron couldn’t understand those who thought differently to him, the Valar maybe also couldn’t understand those who were not like them! It’s a unique comparison of the two opposing sides.
In some ways the Istari hid the real danger in a group of five, the same way the ring bearer was hidden among four hobbits.
Great video. I like how you help to illustrate part of what defines Sauron as a villain is his complete inability to understand how anyone could be motivated by something other than a lust for power and domination over others. It makes sense why he’d try and form an alliance with Saruman and ignore Gandalf thinking he was simple or foolish since he didn’t seem ambitious enough to seek more power.
I thought it was important to mention this because it is somewhat absent from The Lord of the Rings. Understanding Sauron more requires reading some other works but it's obviously something I'd recommend doing anyway for those interested in Tolkien. I love the relationship between these three characters and definitely want to explore Saruman and Sauron in this way in more detail.
This cuts both ways - Manwe fails to understand that Melkor has not reformed as he cannot conceive of dishonesty or malice.
This video and your comment made me realize another way that Voldemort is similar to Sauron. Voldemort couldn’t understand love and selflessness, and those who were motivated by it, as he himself was focused on power and self preservation. When he tried to possess Harry’s body once, he felt physical pain from feeling the presence of love within Harry and quickly aborted the possession attempt, never to try it again. Voldemort also underestimated those without power or status, which contributed to his downfall.
The importance of Sauron's "communion" with Saruman cannot be overstated, in assessing how much he knew about the Wizards. First, this communication would have surely answered all of the Dark Lord's *technical* questions about who and what the Istari were, information that Saruman would not only have given up willingly, but indeed, had a hard time hiding in conversation. After all, Sauron would probably have recognized a fellow Maia of Aule instantly, and even personally, as a former friend.
However, getting his information through Saruman would have had its drawbacks, as it would have been colored by Saruman's own prejudices, and this could have accounted for his dismissive attitude towards Gandalf and, presumably, Radagast.
The idea that he would recognise a Maia of Aule is one I have questioned. We just don't know how many of them existed, how they interacted, if their incarnated forms would have them appear differently, etc. Not arguing against your idea here, I just have questioned if they would recognise each other in Middle-earth, or if it was even just one way. I would think if they were former friends, it would have popped up in text somewhere. It seems more like Saruman admired and was also perhaps jealous of Sauron? He studied him, and it doesn't seem like he studied with him.
Your last point is an interesting one and I do agree there. Though, even with Saruman dismissing Gandalf, he was still wise enough to know he was a far greater threat and of greater importance than Radagast. Gandalf was actively involved in the War of the Ring, Radagast wasn't. If Saruman did relay information to Sauron, he should have made Sauron more aware of Gandalf. It could be that Sauron is so egotistical that he would still dismiss him anyway.
@@TheRedBook I would say that, as with all evil beings, that Saruman didn't share all of what he knew with Sauron. Evil never trusts evil, they always keep something in their pocket for later. Even between Sauron and Melkor there were hidden drives, secret ideas, contingencies. Evil knows evil and evil knows evil betrays itself and is judiciously suspicious of it's fellow evil beings. In this understanding we see that Saruman followed Sauron's orders, except, he was going to get the ring for himself and planned to usurp the Dark Lord and become the New Dark Lord. Betrayal is baked in to evil because of it's very nature, same as the self-destructive, self-degenerating nature of evil.
@@meatybtz you are both wise and powerful and you are a far better Maia then I could ever hope to be. It won't be long until the Valar make you a master.
I'm not convinced that Sauron would have known Saruman was a Maia just by talking to him through the Palantir, or that Saruman would have told him. Saruman didn't worship Sauron, he just saw him as a necessary partner in his scheme. So I think he'd have wanted to play his cards pretty close to the chest. And we've seen that Palantir communication is pretty limited. Sauron isn't able to get much info out of Pippin, and thinks someone is using the Palantir to torture him. So he misreads the situation entirely, and we also learn that he sees things through the lens of his own experience and kind of jumps to conclusions. Part of me feels like Sauron is so arrogant that he doesn't really care what Saruman is. Or Gandalf. Or why they're in Middle Earth. Just some pissant magicians who impress the rubes. Not people to be given much attention by one such as he. And maybe his hubris was so off the charts that he knew they were Maiar and still felt that they were beneath him. Which might be why the Mouth calls Gandalf Gandalf instead of Olórin, almost as a sign of disrespect rather than ignorance. Sauron might have know he was Olórin but used his common name to show his low regard and diminish him.
@@TheRedBook saruman himself is egotistical as well though. If he tells the dark lord about a more powerful wizard, wouldnt saruman think the dark lord would replace him? Thus he wouldnt speak of him.
This is very interesting. I have never thought about what Sauron knows about the Istari, nither have I ever considered that he could lack knowledge nor undersandig about them, since he himself is a maiar. And this (I think) is particularly interesting, since it raises the issue of Sauron thinking of himself as superior to other maiar, hence willingly ignoring them as being too inferior, in his own mind, to himself.
Very profound and complex the thinking of Tolkien regarding evil beings.
Your production levels on these videos are amazing. Really enjoyed this topic discussion, so thanks 🧙♂️
Reminds me of my own less grand obsevations here in the real world of dishonest people; criminals even. They have a blind spot when it comes to _honest_ people. They cannot comprehend that there are genuinely honest folk and believe that everybody is likely to make the choices they would make if they have the opportunity and wit to do so. They believe their victims are just not as good at it, as skilled at _life,_ as they are. So Sauron could understand Saruman but was incapable of understanding Gandalf. While Tolkien's fictional characters were not of our world, the author himself was and I feel his experience of people must have been similar to this.
That's part of a bigger phenomenon where people can't fathom that other people have differing motivations, ways of thinking and emotional triggers or pressures. We (partly) know one person (ourselves) and everyone else (with perhaps a few exceptions) is often treated as a projection of ourselves -- as you say, ''what would I do in that person's position?'' and ''if I was behaving like that then what would be the reasons?''. People tend to be narrow-minded, if not ignorant; having and knowing only one experience (their own).
“Well, let folly be our cloak, a veil before the eyes of the Enemy! For he is very wise, and weighs all things to a nicety in the scales of his malice. But the only measure that he knows is desire, desire for power; and so he judges all hearts. Into his heart the thought will not enter that any will refuse it, that having the Ring we may seek to destroy it. If we seek this, we shall put him out of reckoning.”
Reminds me of the largely economic concept that humans are rational beings and will thus act rationally, ie in own self interest most of the time. Makes sense to a point, but the reality is more complex.
@@philpetersen4477 human beings as rational 😄👍 that's a good one! Made my day😊
I once had a boss, who rather weirdly, lectured me to "need to become more devious"... this was just before he was fired for poaching staff for a competitor... ironically... he also lost his post over there as well😉 so much for his worldly wisdom...
Interesting and enjoyable study of Gandalf and Sauron. Interesting that Sauron controled Saruman by using his desires, and could not dominate Gandalf because his desires were noble. It reminds me of the theme of the ring being able to corrupt Boromir through his desires, but not the hobbits because their desires were more humble.
Yes, you are right. It's also one reason why Tom Bombadil acts the way he does with the ring. It holds no power over him due to a complete lack of interest in the domination of other minds and intelligences. It's also why Faramir isn't 'tempted'. He understands the ring and what it would do if he used it.
I think this is the most insightful middle earth video I have ever seen.
It helps when there's so much Tolkien material to quote from :D Thanks mister Biggins!
This is my favorite lore channel. Been watching a ton lately, I like how well researched you are.
Thanks a lot! :D
@@TheRedBook but of course. Here's hoping you keep growing, especially with the new Amazon series lol.
Excellent as always. I had pondered on this question as Gandalf mentions (I think in TTT) that he doesn't want to yet reveal himself to Sauron, which would imply that he feared that by doing this it might put the cat amongst the trees so to speak. Anyway, an interesting topic and well investigated here, thanks for the vid :)
Interesting point. That could certainly be related to the fact that Gandalf has returned to Middle-earth and has seemingly replaced Saruman. If Sauron could work this out then it would have been extremely worrying for him. It would give rise to the idea that forces greater than him were now directly working against him.
@@TheRedBook Oh yeah. That had the potential to go FUBAR. A panicking dark lord would have done things way differently. Either Sauron pulling everyone back to protect mordor or sauron deciding to go out swinging with his full forces and might would have spelled disaster for everyone.
@@zacharyhawley1693 - An argument can probably be made for either of those possibilites. Going full terrified Morgoth and hiding out in his fortress surrounded by his forces until they come for him, or just releasing the full strength of Mordor. I'd probably go for the former, it's more in keeping with a fearful Dark Lord...
I think it’s more implied that Gandalf did not wish for Sauron to know that he had been sent back. All could see that Gandalf was changed upon his return, Sauron would have been able to tell that there was some sort of divine intervention behind Gandalf’s return, not all could.
Cool art, music and pace.
Thanks!
I just found your channel. I really like how you reference your video with lots of quotes directly from Tolkien's works. In most other TH-cam channels the channels' authors usually just give a summary of what they have researched, and I just assume I've gotten the gist of what the subject matter is all about. But now I see I've been missing a lot of the substance and depth of these topics, via Tolkien's own words. And so, for the first time, I am beginning to realize how deeply and thoroughly Tolkien thought about and cared about his legendarium and its characters. Sure, I believe that Tolkien's works had depth and breadth, but I don't believe I knew, or know, to what extent.
I am actually in awe of how he understood the type of being Sauron is, and Gandalf, and Saruman, and what motivates and informs them. I think they are archetypes for people we see and know of in the real world. This is deep psychology and sociology, stuff that we are still working to understand today in those fields. I'm amazed, and curious as to how deeply Tolkien saw not just into his own characters but also how he saw into the people, relationships and society around him, and how that understanding probably informed his work.
I've always loved Middle Earth and Tolkien's creations. Now I'm even more curious about it all. Thanks for the great research and presentation.
Thanks Chris. I share your sentiments about not only the depth of his writing and characters (something overlooked) but how they really can be applied to our own world. People tend to just shout about him hating allegory but they forget that he was well aware that applicability was something he understood and accepted.
Some of the quotes I read are quite long but I only do that if I think it's really important for the topic at hand. I try and back up what I'm saying but also make it clear that this channel is about how I interpret Tolkien. If people disagree, that's fine, but I hope it allows people the opportunity to think about these topics if they haven't before.
@@TheRedBook Thanks for the reply.
Perhaps Tolkien didn't write in allegory in the sense that the world he built, the characters he created, and the stories he wove were so detailed and deep that they were real to him. Sure, the real world informed him of course, but he built his own almost-real world on its own merits, to stand on its own, so there was no direct or one-to-one allegory, such as the War of the Ring being based on WW2 or whatever.
To extrapolate further on what I was saying before, it seems to me that Tolkien had a very discerning and clear-eyed understanding of peoples' hearts and minds and what motivated them. The way he built the characters of Sauron/Saruman and Gandalf shows amazing insight. For instance, the fact that Sauron couldn't conceive of anyone having motivations beyond/better than his own is one characteristic reminiscent of a malignant narcissist in today's parlance. And Gandalf's ability to see wisdom as having empathy and seeing things from different/others' points of view is the antithesis of Sauron's world view. Also, Gandalf represented the ability to evolve and transform. There is so much to it.
I appreciate your thoughts and sharing these great videos with us. I'm not so much concerned with whether or no I agree with you than with the fact that you have made me think. I very much like that. Thank you.
Not a problem. I like sharing my own thoughts but also reading what other people think. I like your understanding of these characters and what sets them apart. There's enough to make content entirely focused on subjects like this :)
Thanks for sharing!
@@TheRedBook Yes, this is engaging stuff. Love it. It's great that you're open to discussing it and sharing your insight in your videos, as well as in the comments. Great presentation and production, by the way! I look forward to going through what you've already done, and seeing what you come up with on your future videos
@@dreemdazer - With the sudden popularity of this video, it's certainly been harder to keep up with the comments! I love talking Tolkien though. I don't want to just make videos and move on. I like reading what people think and there are plenty who disagree with what I say, which is what makes Tolkien so interesting. Means we can always have something to discuss.
Thanks :D I've worked a lot in trying to make the videos look better. It's why I take longer now to make them. My older ones had a bit less going on in them. I think my videos over the past month or two have been way better! Hopefully, you find more videos you like :)
I think you're one of the only tolkien channels who seems to have actually read the 'history of middle earth' volumes, lost tales, fall of gondolin etc, most tolkien content creators have a couple of lotr/hobbit reads under their belt, and possibly a skimmed reading of the silmarillion/appendices. Which leads them to make generalised statements and speculation and state the 'obvious'. You provide genuinely intuitive insight and referencing to the deepest and most specific source material possible, instead of just profiting off a major IP like most other tolkien creators sadly, and I highly commend you for it!
I think I speak for a lot of tolkien readers when I say that this type of integrity and seriousness is what is sorely missing from tolkien content in the modern day (especially given the recent show that shall not be named)
Thankyou.
Damn the readings in the voices are fantastic, especially pippin after looking in the palantir
Phil is great, I recommend people finding his audiobooks. I can't link those in the videos but I link to his sites in each description.
@@TheRedBook - The only real miss is every time someone sings it sounds like they wandered in from a Broadway musical, which is certainly not what Tolkien had in mind.
@@tominiowa2513 - One reason why I hope I never have to read out a quote on a video where it's singing involved!
There are also some glaring pronounciation errors and I don't mean Tolkien's words. Draught, Brooch, and some others always come to mind. Still, that's not that big a deal!
@@TheRedBook Phil is great is am understatement. His audiobooks are ridiculously good.
I often wonder how that first encounter between Sauron and Saruman went. If Saruman was quick and addressed Sauron by saying, "So Lord Sauron, you do indeed hold the Stone of Ithil as I thought." or something like that, then Sauron probably wouldn't try to control Saruman's mind through the Palantir, which would enable Saruman to lie to him and get away with it. How else would Saruman have been able to keep his true thoughts from Sauron?
Man this is GREAT content. The info, the narrative, the characterisation, pace, visuals... I enjoyed this quite a bit. Subd!
Thanks a lot David, glad you are sticking around for more :D
Incredible voicework! Glad to have come across this channel.
Funny that I read this comment directly after one saying it was hard to understand me and was far too quiet. Glad to hear it!
Methinks your take on the "War of Wrath" and the forty year conflict between all the forces of Morgoth versus the gathered hosts of Valinor and their mighty allies would be a worthy discussion. In particular, the mere fact it laid total waste to such a piece of the world roughly the size of western Europe---what caused that?
Nice idea David, an exploration of the War of Wrath would be good, especially since the finished tale in The Silmarillion is just so short. It blends ideas of Tolkien's final battle, older versions of the Host of the Valar. Worthy of exploration.
This content is of absurdly high quality
Nice of you to say so, thanks a lot!
I very much enjoyed the tone set by the music and art in this video. It complemented the exploration into your subject matter well. Subscribed.
Much appreciated, happy that the content appeals :D
Yay! Finally moving towards the attention you deserve. Keep up the great work Steven!
Thanks :D we will see if TH-cam brings the channel back down to earth when I upload my next one!
Excellent channel. I watch 3 other LOTR oriented ones and I love them, yet this one stands out. Thank you very much for some more insight into this magnificent realm.
Thank you very much :)
This is a very cool video, one of the better I have seen on the wizards
Thank you! As I had not read the much later published works after the Silmarillion, I a much wowed by what i missed in those.
The voice acting is superb. I really enjoyed this examination. Thank you! Subbed! 🙂
Thanks a lot ! I appreciate that :D
@@TheRedBook You're welcome! 😀
Fantastic channel. Fantastic video. You have something unique here that I hope you continue to grow!
Thanks Andreas! I hope for that as well, and TH-cam has really promoted this video. Glad that a lot of people are finding the content :D
Just found your channel - all hail the mighty Algor Rivem. ;) On a serious note, really like your approach and style. I look forward to seeing some more videos. Thanks!
You got me there, was saying the name out loud and was about to Google 😂.
Glad it helped so many find this video. Plenty to look back on and more to come!
Great video man! really great voice over in the beginning :D
Hello, nice to see you here instead of Discord :D
You should have heard my attempts at reading that opening part lol. Maybe I should add bloopers...
@@TheRedBook hahaha yeah would be fun to hear! I struggle myself when recording and when you take a line for the fifth time you're about to blow XD
Okay my mind is completely blown my friend! Excellent work 👍
👍 happy you enjoyed it!
Great video, great perspective, and great breakdown of their relationship and knowledge
I have the same thought regarding the relationships of Miair with repsect to Balrogs - Gandolf "I have slain Durin's bain!"; Sauron "You killed Fred? Jeez! The three of us were on the same CYO team in grade school!"
Been subbed for a while now and continually love the content. Keep it up!
Great videos, buzzing I found your channel.
Happy you have found it :D thanks for watching!
Quite an enjoyable sixteen minutes of my evening.
Very well done 👍
Glad you enjoyed it!
Really enjoyable video, excellent work.
Is there an audiobook with those voices? They are amazing. I felt like i was charmed by some powerful spell when i heard them.
And you channel is astonishing
Hello! Thanks :)
The audiobook is in the description.
@@TheRedBook should've looked at it, but thank you!
Love that you use Phil Dragash narration of the books!
Was very happy when he allowed me to use them :)
Good work, I enjoyed listening to you and didn’t have any issues understanding or hearing what you said.
Cheers, Derek. A couple of people have left weird comments about my voice (as if I can change how I can talk!). Glad you and the majority seem fine with it.
As someone who deeply appreciates Tolkien-related art, I must say you have quite the taste to choose some fine artwork for your videos, some Renaissance-type art pieces which really match the elevated tone of the tales Tolkien told.
I particularly like the Hildebrandts, Ted Nasmith, John Howe and Alan Lee, but the pieces you choose are right up there with them.
It's one of the fun parts of making the videos and also one of the most time consuming, especially now that I am only really trying to use artwork from artists who have given permission. It also allows me to commission artwork as well. Some unbelievable talent out there when you see the artwork.
Amazing work. great video!
Nice work dude thanks
Hi! Great video, I'm glad your content is spreading through TH-cam as your channel grows. May I ask why you said that both Gandalf and Saruman were Aule's people? Because everywhere I see, Gandalf was of Manwe's...
Thanks :)
And I didn't say Gandalf was...unless I misspoke? Can you point me to where that was said? I was talking about Saruman and Sauron as Aule's people.
@@TheRedBook Oh, now that I checked you're right, though I was convinced it was like I said.
Sorry, my bad
No apology necessary!
A very solid analysis.
Best LOTR channel on TH-cam
You've got my subscription. Very interesting video!
Appreciate it! Thanks for joining
amazing video, made so well perfect atmosphere
Thanks a lot!
Great audio clips .
Yes, all always. Phil's voice work just adds a bit of quality to everything.
good presentation and analysis. I really liked it
Thanks Robert!
14:28 he had a point. Even Frodo succumbed to the Ring at the end. It just so happened that Gollum was there at the same time. But Frodo couldn't actually destroy the Ring.
Yeah but that's only one character. Tolkien wouldn't have said "so he thought" if it was some universal truth. Several figures touch the ring and pass it on, Sam holds it longer - refuses its temptation and gives it back to Frodo, Faramir sees through it, Aragorn doesn't seize it when he could, Gandalf refuses it when offered, Galadriel refuses it when offered. To Sauron, none of those powerful figures should have refused such power.
@@TheRedBook Frodo refused the temptation of the ring. Initially. But even he gives up, once he stands on Mount Doom. Sauron was right in that he thought the Ring was indestructible. When an honest hobbit couldn't do it, no one could.
@@CharlesOffdensen - I still disagree. It goes against Tolkien's entire point related to Sauron's thoughts about the ring. I'll stick with "so he thought".
At 12:34 Gandalf roasting Saruman good😁
Can just imagine Saruman glaring at him while Gandalf wipes away his tears of laughter :D
@@TheRedBook 😁
The Voice of Saruman obviously had no effect on Gandalf.
Very good material.
My 2 cents: Sauron could not CONCIEVE of anyone even trying to destroy the One Ring. To reject power that completely. It did not cross his mind as something to be worried about. At least, not until Gollum trips...
Indeed, it's one of his many flaws. He'd never reject such power, and he's wise, so anyone wise will also not reject it.
@@TheRedBook To be fair, Sauron was correct. Even Sam was tempted, and Frodo simply breaks in Sammath Naur.
@@LordMortanius - We meet several characters who are not tempted by the One Ring, despite being in positions to take it.
@@TheRedBook The Ring tempts Isildur who has everything he's loved ruined by Sauron. It has a malign intelligence of its own - Smeagol saw it and murdered his own cousin within minutes.
@@LordMortanius yes, those are certainly figures who were tempted to take or keep the ring but there are still others who could have attempted to take it and didn't.
Wow!! Great job dude!
Thanks, Neill :)
It's really interesting that the most powerful ones often peril by their own actions of wanting to prove everyone they have more power, or, wanting to dominate it all, megalomaniacally, instead of sticking to their established positions of power. As that old quote: "greed precedes ruin".
Very good. Thank you!
My pleasure :)
Why would Saruman think Manwë's motivations for sending the Istari would be about recolonizing Middle-Earth? Had he been so thoroughly corrupted by Morgoth that he simply viewed any being with power as basically wanting the same things as he (Sauron) wanted? I'm assuming that back in his days as Mairon he had some knowledge of Manwë through the latter's role as head of the Ainur (except Morgoth) who went to Arda and through his (Mairon's) association with the Aulë.
projection
I think you are right. Sauron believes those with power and wisdom would act in accordance with himself, whom he viewed as wise and powerful. The Changing of the World had Sauron view Middle-earth as essentially being 'abandoned' and the fact that these emissaries arrived would be purely for the benefit of the Valar, without the blessing of Eru. With Middle-earth's inhabitants abandoned, for what reason would they send figures across the sea? To gain a foothold once again, to establish a presence but purely for their own authority, a retainment of it. The idea that they were sending figures to help its inhabitants would be foreign to Sauron. Why wouldn't they send a force like they did with his master? It's Sauron showing his narrow vision due to his continued fall into evil and pride.
12:32 By the Norse Loins! I'd recognize that voice anywhere.
Very interesting! Maybe you should make a video about why Aule's maiar are the ones being corrupted (that we know of), if there is anything to say about it?
It's a good idea, Owen. That's definitely something that will appear on the channel. I do have some things to say about that.
I am curious if Sauron recognized Saruman from the early days of the Lamps, or if he was busy with other thoughts (I remember few of my elementary school friends other than those i kept in contact with).
There's no evidence that Sauron knew Saruman from ages past. Even after learning more about Saruman through his dealings with him in the Third Age, it is never said that Sauron knew him as a fellow Maia of Aulë.
Some may say that he should have known due to having such a familiar origin but we also don't know just how many of the Maiar served a particular Vala. We also don't know much about the hierarchy of those who did. Sauron was particularly gifted, seemingly greater than Saruman. Perhaps he never knew him. Perhaps he joined Melkor early.
It's unfortunately not something that can be answered from the text!
@@TheRedBook - Does the knowledge of each other from the void/First Music transfer over when the Ainur take up Eru's offer to enter the world and be bound to it?
Of course all the Maiar we know about in Middle Earth take on physical forms that they did not have at all in the void and different from those that they had used in Valinor.
@@tominiowa2513 I don't see why the knowledge and understanding from the music wouldn't go with them as they entered the world but there's still no indication of who knew each other. The spirits that became the Maiar hearkened to the greater spirits but I can't imagine how many spirits took part. We know that there were many spirits who didn't descend into the world. The Maiar could be in numbers untold. Would they all 'know' each other?
@@TheRedBook they spend like eternity with each other
@@MohamedRamadan-qi4hl - Yes but with countless other spirits too. Who is to say Saruman wouldn't recognise the greater spirit Sauron while he has no idea who Saruman is? No evidence to suggest they knew enough other beforehand. Though, I'm not against the idea :)
Stunning 👏👏🧙
Thanks! Good to see you here again.
Ultimately, it was the Hobbits as a community that was developed as a passive/aggressive weapon of covert battle. What evolved within the race of Hobbits was their innately imbued ability to resist the corrupting powers of The One Ring. They could be masochistically lured by its power, but not consumed by its motive desire to oppressively dominate. Gollum, a subverted Hobbit, never developed the desire to rule over others. He loved The One Ring, but not as an super-energetic amphetamine to enhance domination, but more like an opioid depressant. As Aragorn realized at his coronation, it was the Hobbits that won the day for his own ascendancy. And not just Bilbo and Frodo, but especially Smeagol , who decisively and quite selfishly sacrificed himself to destroy The One Ring of Power.
LOve your Channel!!!
Can you tell me more about Ungoliant and her not beeing made by Iluvatar?
Thanks :)
Well, a video about Ungoliant will show up. I mention her a little in my next video but she'll have one of her own as well.
@@TheRedBook
I think it should not go unnoticed that both Saruman and Sauron were Maiar of Aule; and that Melkor adn Aule were the most alike in general focus of interest, being that of the matter of the earth and industry.
Around 4:15 begins the insight regarding how Sauron might misunderstand Gandalf. There's no need to repeat that insight but I thought it was a really interesting exploration of how the villain of the story might understand one of its great heroes
My new favourite lotr TH-camr 💖
Very kind :D
I completely enjoyed this!
I am glad :D
very interesting topic
Brilliant, thank you!
58k views
2k likes!!!
This video gave a big boost to the channel. Views went up by 2000 percent and my subs more than doubled in a week. I'm on a bad run at the moment though. Terrible views.
I always figured The foul mouth of Sauron the Great, had an old English accent "would you like a spot of tea?
Yeeeeaaaaassssssssssss" I think the wooden teeth are a smashing success
Stunningly well-delivered video, good sir. As for ideas to pursue, I wonder if Ulmo speaks through others in the Third Age as he did with Tuor in the Second. Sam in Shelobe’s lair, for example, where he lifts the vial of Galadriel while dropping mad lines of Elvish chants… having no idea how to speak Elvish…
Thank you!
That's an interesting question. I will take this into consideration but, just thinking of it at the moment, it probably wouldn't involve Ulmo. I'd lean more towards Elbereth herself, the power of words, faith/hope, etc. I think it could certainly be interesting enough for a video. I'e been looking at the power of names, especially Elbereth, and this ties in directly with it.
Really enjoying this video. Lovely pace, lots of detail and a very pleasant listen. Spot on!
Thanks Simon :)
Honestly I've really got into Tolkien again the last few months and been going through a deep dive on the lore and yours has been some of the most satisfying content I've watched. Look forward to seeing this channel grow!
@@simonvegas793 - Great to hear! I've got about 30 videos so far. This one has been by far the most viewed. Been a lot of growth for the channel in just a few days. Hoping people keep liking the content going forward. Got plenty more ideas.
Since we are often led to believe that Eru Illuvatar is all-knowing, even the worst events are part of His plan, and those who struggle to change it are merely playing their role, as intended, I wonder if maybe that is, in part, why Saruman was sent, despite his own character flaws? He served as a valuable distraction, and misdirection for Sauron. By gauging his opposition by the White Wizard, Sauron perhaps made lesser decisions, and kept his attention where it wasn't as useful. It's tragic what he caused, but if it maybe slowed Sauron's take of their intentions, or the strength of his foes, maybe Saruman still served a purpose, and allowed the likes of Gandalf more freedom of movement, without the scrutiny of the Dark Lord.
Saruman is like the original defense against the dark arts teacher
Dear, god, man, don't compare the two, swinebumps is nothing.
Sauron sounded like Pinhead from Hellraiser...lol. still very cool!
"We'll tear your soul apart!"
Best tolkien channel!!!!
Too kind 👍😁
@@TheRedBook Noot really. The mood in your videos is godlike
I don't know what I'll do if I need to cover a happy subject 😬😅
@@TheRedBook oh right yeeah. That could be trickkier with your style.
This is an absolute gem of a channel.
I'd say "under-commented" but what do I even say? I'm being educated on lore that I'm under-educated on.
I had read these books when I was MUCH younger; really, too young to really appreciate, so thanks for increasing my appreciation of Tolkien's works!
Interesting ideas in there, but two observations...
1). It seems reasonable to think that the greatest of the elves could be more powerful than a maiar spirit. I suspect Glorfindel was... especially once he returned.
2). As maiar spirits, the istari were of the unseen world and, I suspect, Sauron would have "seen" them as what they truly were. I would further speculate that seeing their true self would also give him some understanding of who they served. Although that wouldn't, necessarily allow him to understand their motives.
1 - Tolkien talks about Glorfindel's return and says his sacrifice and noble spirit made him nigh as great as the Maiar. He's never described as being greater.
2 - This is a possibility but we also have to remember they were cloaked in very real bodies of men. This was intended to hide the spirit within - but what this means for someone like Sauron viewing them, is perhaps unknown.
My basic argument for #1 is that, Glorfindel died killing a Balrog. He then returned still yet more powerful.
Gandalf, as a Maiar spirit, died killing a Balrog. (Of course, he was sent back still yet more powerful.)
@@josephbenson4413 - Of course but Tolkien himself does say nigh as great. I'd think he would say greater if he meant it.
Gandalf is a different case. He was incarnated, meaning he fought the Balrog while cloaked in the body of a man. Plus, it was written at a time when Balrogs had been changed in the Legendarium to become far more formidable and divine beings.
Pride goes before the fall. The greater the pride the harder the fall. In Homer’s poem he wrote - whom the gods wish to destroy they first make proud.
Sauron's recognition of Istari is mentioned in the "Tale of Galadriel and Celeborn" of Unfinished Tales as follows: "Arriving in Eregion, Sauron, posing as an emissary sent to Middle-earth by the Valar (and proving that she had foreseen the Istari's arrival by doing so) claimed to have been ordered to stay there to aid the Elves." and "He hides his true identity in order to mingle with the Noldor people, and takes on a beautiful appearance (in fact, this is a kind of imitation he makes by anticipating the appearance of Istari, who will be sent to Middle-earth in the future) and a beautiful name." I think this statement is an indication that Sauron knew the Istari and predicted what course of action the Valar would adopt.
These quotes aren't exactly the same ones as in the book. Where are you getting them from?
The quote from Unfinished Tales actually says "thus anticipating the Istari" which means something different. That means his appearance was a precursor, he was acting as a forerunner.
@@TheRedBook
How did Sauron present himself to the Elves as an emissary of the Valar? Did he come to the Grey Havens in a ship? If so, how did he pull that off? If not, why would they trust that he came from Valinor?
@@Enerdhil - I promise I don't do this on purpose to avoid answering questions..because I seem to say it a lot. I am 100% doing a video at some point about just what they took him for. Basically, explaining how Sauron managed to pull it off. My issue, as always, is that I try not to do constant Sauron videos in a row! It will come though. Others can obviously provide an answer in the comments but I am saving the detail for a video.
@@TheRedBook
You tackle the hard lore questions, Steven. That's why we love you.❤️🧡💛💚💙💜🤎🖤🤍
I'm curious about what Saruman was doing in the east for so long. He was there for around 1500 years and no one knows what he was up to. Was he helping the Blue Wizards get set up and help them begin their campaigns of rebellion against Sauron? Was he scouting out places where Sauron might hide? He missed the downfall of Arnor completely. You might think Aule might want him to help the Longbeards out with their Balrog infestation, but nope, Saruman is absent for that too. He doesn't pop back up until Sauron has rebuilt his power in Dol Guldor and the Ringwraiths are firmly ensconced in Minas Ithil (now Minas Morgul for @ 60 years). The situation in the West has nearly deteriorated to the point where the Lord of the Rings begins almost a thousand years later. Only then does the White Wizard show his face in the west. We know he takes up residence in Orthanc in 2759 TA. Has he become corrupted by this point or is Gandalf just someone he doesn't get along with because of jealousy or perceived slights? I get the sense that he fails in his mandate when he forsakes his ambassadorship for personal power perhaps when he finds the treasury in Orthanc especially the Palantir. I don't know when he fell to evil. Perhaps it was after crafting his own Ring of Power, or perhaps finding and desecrating the remains of Isildur? What do you think?
Add to this that the Istari arrive in Middle Earth at approximately the same time as Sauron sets himself up in Dol Guldur as the Necromancer, so countering Sauron would no longer be limited to activities in the far east of Rhûn.
Saruman was envious of Gandalf beginning from the time when the Valar selected which Maia would be sent to Middle-Earth. He basically believed that Gandalf was getting more respect than Gandalf deserved and that it was coming at Saruman's expense. I would say by the time Saruman started searching for the One without letting the White Council know what he was doing and misleading them by saying the One had rolled out into the ocean he was truly evil. It could have been earlier though; I'm no expert on the timeline of Saruman's activities in Middle-Earth.
@@istari0 - I have wondered about the White Council accepting the claim that the One Ring had been washed out to sea by the Anduin. Was Saruman in such a position that everyone would accept a claim of the negative (i.e., the One Ring is no longer in Middle Earth*) which is not provable without a positive somewhere else (e.g., we can sense the Ring's presence through this method I devised, and it is here under 2,000 fathoms of water) without question?
*Note that Middle Earth refers to a specific continent, not the entire world.
@@tominiowa2513 The rest of the Council regarded as Saruman as their authority on the Rings of Power. You couple that with the ability of Saruman to influence others by the power of his voice alone and it sounds like the Council took him at his word. This was all before they knew Saruman was betraying them and possibly even before he did so. There's also the possibility that at first Saruman genuinely believed that was what had happened to the One.
@@istari0 - "Others" included Gandalf, Galadriel, Elrond and Círdan, none of whom were that easily influenced by the power of others or wet behind the ears by T.A. 2851.
Could the Amazon series involve the Blue Wizards then?
I don't see why not, to be honest. From what I know, they aren't allowed to change fundamental parts of the story. Adding the Blue Wizards as characters wouldn't do that. They'd be free to add them, create stories for them, and basically do what they will.
@@TheRedBook Did Tolkien ever explain what the Blue Wizards were doing at any point?
@@Darkwintre - Not in any great detail. Letter 211 says that Tolkien suspected they were foudners or beginners of secret cults or 'magic' traditions that outlasted the fall of Sauron.
In his late writings he was a bit more optimistic and said their task was to circumvent Sauron: to bring help to the few tribes of Men that had rebelled from Melkor-worship, to stir up rebellion ... and after his first fall to search out his hiding (in which they failed) and to cause [?dissension and disarray] among the dark East ... They must have had very great influence on the history of the Second Age and Third Age in weakening and disarraying the forces of East ... who would both in the Second Age and Third Age otherwise have ... outnumbered the West."
@@TheRedBook Interesting just picked up a copy of the Simarillion so really curious about this.
Great work! Audio gain could be increased.
It has been. This video is about a year old.
@@TheRedBook Ah yes I notice it now. A tip - take a look into both Compression and Normalization for your Audio feed (Normalization is more so relevant to your stuff). It’ll drastically improve your Audio quality levels without blowing out the high end with ‘poppy’ sibilance.
I do normalisation and compression on my latest videos ;). Id still prefer an expert to do my audio for me but haven't looked into that much
@@TheRedBook Which software do you use? The least I can do is give you some specific tips, hopefully it helps.
I loved the scene in Two Towers, where Sauron communicates with Pippin. What exactly did Pippin see? Certainly not the Eye in the Jackson films. Tolkien indicates that Sauron actually had a physical form based on the comment of Gollum about "nine fingers". Gollum was brought before the seat of Sauron. What did he see? I would've loved to have seen this represented in the movies, LOTR or The Hobbit....
to think that the only member of the good people that can say what Sauron looks like would be Aragorn and Pippin
Did Sauron knew about the Balrog of Moria? Because if he knew, at the point after battle of helm's deep he would know not only Gandalf brought death to Smaug, but also defeated a Balrog of the old days located in Moria. He would be like: this guy is in fire. Better hurry up and win the game while he still farming monsters around the map.
There's no evidence to suggest he knew a Balrog was there and definitely none to suggest that he knew Gandalf had defeated it. For all we know, Sauron may have still thought Gandalf the White was the same figure that had been wandering Middle-earth for centuries.
Saruman knew, but he lost the Palantir. Gandalf did confront Sauron to aid Frodo at Amon Hen, perhaps he sensed it there? But we just don't have enough information to be sure of what Sauron knew of Gandalf's change and of the Balrog itself, unfortunately.
@@TheRedBook Yea, and it's hard to imagine Sauron caring much that Gandalf changes his clothes. If he even notices that is. I'm led to believe that Sauron's visibility of the wider world was pretty limited. He consistently misjudges and underestimates things. I think part of it is hubris but also largely just lack of information.
I would like to think that one of the Blue Wizards would eventually become Merlin.
the relationship between gandalf and saruman kind of reminds me of the relationship between manwe and melkor
Some things are missing here - Sauron definetely knew exactly what the Istari were. Gandalf was in Dol Guldur and escaped. At least then Sauron knew exactly what the Istari were, as he must have felt Gandalfs "presence/might", as all Maias were able to feel/sense other mighty Maias. Also the White Council atracked Sauron at Dol Guldur...and if he was able to just count 1+1 together, he knew very well why the Valar had sent them. So, at least at the late third age, Sauron knew exactly the Istari were there to work against him. And Saurons Mouth clearly said that Sauron knew about Gandalfs journeys. So Sauron observed what Gandalf was doing. And he did not do this by incident. He did this because he always knew the Istari were there to work against him.
Do you have a source for Maiar sensing others? Quite a few assumptions here though if I'm honest. I don't necessarily agree with all of it.