since Tolkien wrote his lore as some kind of pre-european history i kind of imagine that orcs as they declined and became more isolated and solitude became the more dark lonesome creatures of our later folklore.
It's a good idea - it's certainly something that fits with the Goblins of The Hobbit - before Tolkien really got into depth about the fading of others and the dominion of Men. It would seem reasonable to imagine Orcs becoming fairy taie monsters in forests, etc.
How refreshing to find the lore treated with the respect it deserves :) I always stuck with Tolkien's earlier idea that orcs were corrupted Elves. I know he ended up disliking the idea but it is the only one that fits the timeline and it is not too much of a stretch to imagine the 1st born waking on Arda only to have a few stolen away by Morgoth and ruined.
Only the very first Orcs were corrupted Elves. Both male and female Elves were captured and corrupted into Orcs. And these first Orcs retained their ability to breed and give birth to live young. Indeed their fertility was massively, exponentially increased over their original Elvish form, surpassing even the fertility of Men - but at the cost of nearly all their other powers and attributes, making them extremely weak compared to the Elves, especially the Noldor.
This video reminds me of a scene of The Return of the King animated where Sam invisions what her would do if he claimed the One Ring. We see Mordor turn into a garden and he runs into some Orcs travelling who instead of attacking they smile and wave as if to say, 'Whats up!'
This was as ever good stuff. I agree Aragorn, has no genocide in his nature. That orcs are redeemable is an important concept for Tolkien as is Aragorns pity. Being unable to answer these questions as a reader would have delighted Tolkien the mythologist. He struggled with reconciling religious, mythic and narrative imperatives in relation to orcs, my belief is that this is the reason for the abandonment of the new shadow, he was driven back to earlier parts of the legendarily, to try to cut this Gordian knot. My wife came in at the end of my watching and asked why you talked about orcs, I explained she said simply “they went away.” I never question her wisdom, so there we have as definitive a answer as we will ever have. Thanks and keep up the good work.
The wild men surrendered at Helm's Deep but orcs did not and met their fate among the huorns and ents. If some did surrender to Aragorn, I think he would allow them to live out their lives peacefully in captivity, but not have offspring, so they would die out one way or another. Our Earth knows genocide, but I don't see it as the same in Middle Earth. I think Aragorn would work to exterminate them in the Mountains of Mordor, as well as the Misty Mountains along with the Sons of Elrond.
@@sandal_thong8631 It looked like the trees did a good job of mopping up after Helm's Deep in the movies, so I certainly think it possible to imagine that surviving Orcs were hunted down. Tolkien probably doesn't talk about it too much precisely because you're not really supposed to. You could probably re-write Lord of The Rings as being a massive history of War Crimes if you wanted, but I think maybe that would not be quite in the spirit of it!!
@@Comakino he said other things, in the story and in his letters and other writing, which show the importance of redemption for him and indeed the story. His first conversation with Frodo about Gollum, is possibly the most striking example.
This ended up being far longer than originally planned and I went a bit deeper than just speculating about Orcs in the Fourth Age. I wanted to discuss the power Morgoth and Sauron held over Orcs, as well as some talk of redeemability. Hope it was worth the wait. Expecting many to have different views than my own speculation about Orcs here, interested in hearing your thoughts. I would like to note that sometimes the audiobook does not match the quoted text on the screen - this is usually due to some misreadings from the audiobook itself and I always use the text as it is written by Tolkien. The audio is still worth using though but thought I would mention it in case it seems like there are some errors every now and again! A couple of them appear in quote sections on this video - not a big deal... Updates coming soon about the next video!
I can't imagine Aragorn leading a genocidal campaign to wipe out orcs from Middle Earth. Nor do I think he ever had to. I have always thought that orcs were raised from infancy to be merciless killing machines. I think they would have killed any orc babies born with "defects" of any kind. I think that all male orc children were likely taken from their mothers at an early age and raised collectively by cruel task masters who taught them to hate and kill, maybe even each other, so that only the strongest, cruelest orcs made it in the armies, the rest being forced to do other manual labor that was necessary to support the army, such as war gear production or even farming and food production. Also I believe they would have left injured orcs on the battlefield to die. Personally, I feel that they had no regard for life of any kind, including their own. So I could easily see them killing themselves and each other once the presence of Sauron was gone from their lives, similar to the infighting among orcs that we read about in the Two Towers. Tens of thousands could kill each other for revenge of some kind, me thinks.
Your talk of Orcs there reminds me of Sparta, which is interesting. Raised to fight, discarding the weak. Still, there is some camaraderie there. We see Orcs willing to even travel in sunlight to avenge fallen Orcs in The Two Towers. Some chapters with Orcs really hint at something more than mindless killing machines, which I find interesting.
@@TheRedBook Any thing less means they are all potentially redeemable. I think they can get along with other orcs as long as they don't feel threatened, but I think their nature is to rat each other out, so camaraderie could be a way to get "dirt" on someone that they could use to get favorable treatment from the captains. I really think orcs had to do whatever they could to survive even when they were not at war.
I believe some Orcs, those with some kind of lands of their own (the Misty Mountains for example) might have, with time, bred closer to what they had been. Given my own theories, this means 3 different "breeds" at last. First would be more and more like unto clever animals. Second would become more manlike. Third in time would become akin to Elves. So legends in later days of Kobolds, Red Caps and the like would be the last remnants of Morgoth's terrible crime. Fading over long ages. Until, eventually, some became bankers for Wizarding kind, running Gringot's for example.
A grim but probably accurate take on the fate of Orcs in The Fourth Age. Just as real-life theists have to grasp with theodicy, so too did Tolkien have to grasp with it as God of such an intricate world. Sadly, beyond atheism or Christian teachings of faith, there is no way to reconcile Eru Illuvatar's providence with Melkor's evil where Orcs are concerned. Letter 153 really read like an author trying to justify and make peace with the horrible implications of his secondary world's logic. The only way is to have 'estel' like Christians have faith.
Simply because no adaptation will ever be as interesting to discuss as the works of Tolkien. Even the very best adaptation - because all that is good about it would be owed to Tolkien anyway :D
@@Yuuzhanvon Where is it written we need to "hate" Amazon to appreciate JRRT. And who made you dictator of "the community." Unless you have legal control of the canon I don't need to take your words seriously and don't. Let each creator do the work that suits them.
I’m not THAT excited to watch this amazon shit. But ima watch it. Fuck it. Might be some cool shit. And truthfully, it’s gonna suck. But maybe a couple cool scenes. Real shit. I get less exited every day. But I’m thinking somebody someday might make a legit show or something. Some day. Maybe when we’re both 60. Somebody will make some true Tolkien inspired content. 🤞
What the hell does this even mean? You’ve commented on this beautifully made video to take an unrelated cheap shot at the new adaptation (presumably because you don’t like the parent company patronizing it). Immature and classless.
Thanks, Robert. I have enough ideas for 2022 at least. I hope by that time the Tolkien Estate will have sent me a big fat cheque to write a book - one can dream 😁
I like to imagine that as orc hordes perished in great battles there was a huge backlog of elvish souls needing healing of their corruption in the Halls of Mandos. Perhaps to be given flesh and a fresh start in Aman, or a rebirth in Arda Renewed after the end of the world.
Personally, I prefer the idea that they were corrupted elves. It's much more tragic. Imagine what those first orcs looked like. I'm sure they changed over time as they bred with each other and other strains formed. There are some really great and striking illustrations of the change if you search.
It’s the little things in life that bring happiness. One of them is learning a new The Red Book video has arrived, then grabbing a beer or cup of coffee and settling in, knowing the ride will be both entertaining and enlightening. Thanks to and All Hail The Red Book!
I liketo imagine that the remnants of orcs, trolls and dragons that lingered on ended up inspiring the monsters of northern mythology, like Grendel from Beowulf.
@@brandonmunsen6035 It's not very nice to put your words in place of other people's words. Read it again. "I like to imagine"... He didn't say what you said...
@@brandonmunsen6035 Tolkien openly stated he saw his Legendarium as a mythic pre history of Europe, and as well as being an internationally famous Old English and Norse scholar, who made one of the major modern translations of Beowulf, a large chunk of poetry in LotR is Old English poetry verbatim. So it completely fits the bill, probably canon if we dug through the literature
I like to think without Sauron's influence, the elvish nature of the orcs would begin to resurface, I think this would be more in keeping with the song of Illuvatar, seeing as he showed mercy and granted life to the dwarves after the were made in secret by the Valarand seeing as Illuvatar allowed for the dischord Morgoth sang into the song of creation
I do wonder what the "old times with no big bosses" referenced in the Gorbag and Shagrat conversation might have been. It implies a period when orcs had a degree of independance, and if still motivated by a desirre to destroy, seem to have been far less inclined, or compelled to band together in large numbers as footr soldiers of whatever evil overlord saw fit to control them.
Some read it as a reference to before the rise of Sauron way back in the 2nd age but I read that part as before Sauron returned and openly declared himself in Mordor - that time when he started to draw evil things to his land. It's likely that many Orcs were elsewhere at that time, in small bands or tribes. Then they would feel that pull to Mordor and they were drawn into a wider conflict. At least, how I read that part!
Maybe they could have made a small gang of highway-robbers, like trolls in the high country east of Bree, free of a boss's commands? As we saw, the two "tribes" exterminated each other. So I can't see this lasting long. Orcs breeding was enhanced by Sauron's will, so it must be slow without it.
I like to think of orcs as similar to the Borg from Star Trek, once they are detached from the collective, most can't function without purpose and order from the collective. A small few are able to redeem their free will, create a purpose and a future, but this is a rarity. Their reentry into a society or culture wouldn't just be in their control, it would also take acceptance and help from others, this would be a difficult road for all but not impossible.
I think that is probably a good take on it, since evil would would still exist in Middle Earth after Sauron and Melkor were both gone from it, but the chance of the corruption ever overtaking or destroying that world entirely would be gone after that point, and evil creatures would struggle to re-build their numbers without them.
Interesting theory. I still believe that the orcs are not completely irredeemable, even in life. Some colonies of them might continue to exist in the Fourth Age in remote areas like the Misty Mountains or the distant East, as you mentioned. Without the will of a Dark Lord driving them to hate and war, some orcs might be able to exist in their own underground societies in relative peace. They wouldn't be able to coexist with Men, because of the two races' previous history and Mankind's tendency to fear what it doesn't understand. And due to their corruption, the orcs might not be truly "good" as we define it. But I can imagine more or less neutral orcs wanting to just be left alone like Gorbag and his friend. Orcs of later ages would be surly, mischievous, elusive creatures, hiding in the shadowy places of the world and giving rise to the "later" legends of European goblins.
I would have to agree with Jim Bombadill's take. We have to keep in mind that Middle-Earth was our Earth in Tolkien's mind (or at least it became so later when he moved into more cohesive writing) and that the end of the third age sort of "set the stage" for later Europe to develop. Thus elves depart or they fade into mere sprites and folkloric faeries (the difference between these being something Tolkien was terribly concerned with) as did Hobbits who he at one point wrote still dwelled in the western parts of Europe albeit usually invisible. Thus orcs devolving into later goblins and similar "dark" folklore creatures by the seventh or so age (which is around where Tolkien pegged his lifetime). But of course this is all unpublished and thus speculative. Nice video, came here from Girl Next Gondor.
Suggestion for a new video: The halls of lamentation (quoted by the Witch-king x Éowyn) and the wraith world (unseen world). Or Time travel in Tolkien's works.
@@TheRedBook : Nice! I second Rafaels suggestion. Although I am certain you've received so many good ones it could be difficult to decide witch to do first, or even find the time to do close to all of them. lols No doubt everyone appreciates what you do manage though. ^-^
@@aylbdrmadison1051 That's pretty much it, I have so many ideas written down but can only do one video at a time - so some end up disappointed but I do hope to make all of them over time :D
A superb analysis. Your conclusions are doubtless the correct ones. Still, I naïvely wonder if mercy & redemption could have saved just a handful of orcs. We didn't see redemption in Gollum, in whom Sméagol was ultimately annihilated. Could the death of Sauron have led to a diminishment of hatred in some orcs, to the point that some eventually turned to good? Sadly that seems unlikely.
I think your line of hopeful thought is to be admired, not naïve. I imagine a small, isolated community, maybe in the mountains, where a handful of orcs and men have built a tolerable co-existence. Maybe it begins out of necessity - surviving a harsh winter, perhaps - but the chance of a future is there. Tolkien championed hope over almost everything. With your hope for even a handful of orcs, I believe that you're following his example.
I'm more pessimistic. I think the quotes I used about Sauron being an "agent" hints towards the hatred and nature of Orcs remaining intact following his demise. They are still the products of the original corruption of Morgoth - and they were not redeemed when he left the world - they still fought and hated until Sauron focused that hatred for his own purposes. As Tolkien says, it's their nature that is corrupted, that evil and bile within them. I don't think the removal of Sauron would fundamentally change them as a race.
_They were elves once._ I don't think it's as unlikely as many assume. I imagine that eventually given enough time Tolkien would have written about such things. His guiding principle was compassion, so it seems likely to me.
@@TheRedBook : I think it's more a matter of putting oneself in the shoes of another, and having the courage to be introspective about the harm we ourselves have done to others. For me personally, that ideal runs through so much of Tolkiens writings. One could even say that overall it's an essay on the dangers of racism and bigotry, and how the bonds of friendship can overcome them. If for no other reason, I wish he could have lived long enough for us to see where such ideas would have taken his works. But then I am perhaps more optimistic. Something I gained in some part at least through his writings, in particular about hope. There is the one place where we see even Gandalf and Galadriels wisdom and foresight were found to be lacking.. _"There never was much hope, just a fool's hope, as I have been told."_ --Gandalf _"Stray but a little and it will fail, to the ruin of all. Yet hope remains while all the Company is true."_ --Galadriel In the end they were both proven wrong. I would say this is because they allowed fear to grow in their own wise hearts. One of the greatest quotes in the books though is.. _"Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends."_ --Gandalf This for me sums up best what Tolkien may have been trying to convey. To not allow our own egos, our failings of hope, to direct our course of action. _"All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."_ --Gandalf I endeavor to do my best at that, and to make amends for my own failings where I am able.
Like Aulë created Dwarves, Yavanna created Ents, Morgoth created Orcs and Trolls. Aulë made dwarves with an iron will (for good and bad) because he had no interest in dominating them and he didn't want Morgoth to dominate them. And when Eru Iluvatar confronted him, he renounced his dominion over the dwarves allowing Eru to give them life / free will. Iluvatar made him notice they were without goals and when he didn't look after them, they were idle. Morgoth, in my opinion, did the exact same thing. Create the Orcs (and like Aulë missed some detail in the design - like making males and females complementary). But Morgoth wanted dominion so he made orcs easy to control. But they were idle too when Morgoth didn't aim his attention at them. And here came Iluvatar, giving them life /free will. But, of course, Morgoth didn't agree to make them sleep until the Firstborn of Iluvatar were awakened first. But the problem of free will is they act on their own accord when not watched. And evil doesn't cooperate well with others evil.
@Rick Storm - Elves corrupted in the edited Silmarilion - that's just one theory - but Mirco was using "create" in place of "made" which would have been the correct word. Knew what he meant though.
@Mirco - The Orcs as being "Melkor's" as the Dwarves were Aule's is an idea I've liked for many years. I'd never considered your proposition about Eru actually gifting them free will - that's very interesting. Especially since you believe there would be some choice for Melkor to put them to sleep. We are told in The Silmarillion that the making of Orcs was basically the biggest blasphemy and evil of Melkor against Eru. I'd probably use that to argue any sort of permission between Eru and Melkor in the fate of Orcs. Giving them free will almost sounds like a slap in Melkor's face rather than a gift - which is interesting as well. Will have to think on this :D
@@TheRedBook In my imagination is see the same scene happening both for Aulë and Melkor but their attitude is different and the consequences for their creations is different. Aulë made the dwarves strong willed to resist Melkor and was uninterested in controlling them where Melkor made the Orc weak willed because he wanted to control all Arda. Confronted by Eru Iluvatar both would have destroyed their creation: Aulë because he overstepped his authority and place even if he loved his creations Melkor because they were idle and he was enraged by his own failure. Then Eru Iluvatar steps in and stops both of them, remarking they are actually alive because they are cowering in fear. I would suggest Eru put them both to sleep, because he would not suffer them to be awakened before the elfs. But instead of waiting for the Sun, Melkor awakens them immediately after the elves awaken, in the dark. Eru made the elves able to withstand the light of the Trees and the Sun but the Orcs were not. Just the stars. In fact, IIRC, orcs were not cited until after the War for the Sake of the Elfs. We know Melkor was captured and brough to Valinor and Sauron remained in Angband. I suggest Sauron would have supervised the breeding of Orcs from the beginning, making him the actual handler of the Orcs. And this would explain why they were less affected by Melkor defeat.
@The Red Book I actually think it makes sense to view it as Eru's gracious gift to Melkor, though I doubt Melkor would necessarily appreciate it, Melkor desired to create life, and though he failed to do so, they are his by Eru's designation and will, I imagine that Eru desires to create in Melkor repentance, by giving him a people as his own, so that, perhaps, possibly a sense of affection could begin to grow within him, and as such, gratitude towards the One that gave them.
This is a profound understanding and review of the Orcs in Tolkien's legendarium. Morgoth manipulated Eru's creation in the evilest of ways. Any subordinate of Morgoth, no matter how powerful, would not have the intellect nor the will to control, in the manner of Morgoth, the orcs as well as any other evil entities. Tolkien's legendarium was what some call "true myth". Even though we know it was never allegorical... Tolkien's devout Catholic faith influenced his understanding of good and evil. I love your take on free will and also intellect and will. Thomas Aquinas' Summa Theologica, Prima Pars, #50 through #65 gives great detail on the will and intellect of angels and demons (the Valar, the Maiar, Melkor, and his evil subjugated). Thanks for the great insights you have regarding the greatest of all myths.
Tolkien listed three or four different origins for the Orcs in the Silmarillion, and he didn't seem content with any of them in the end. As for what happened to them? Since we are told that even the Dwarves eventually dwindled and died out, I'd guess that eventually the last orcs would die out too with some orc-blood lingering in certain human family lines that had cross bred.
I imagine that the Orcs and Goblins would have retreated to their various underground territories - Goblin town, Gundabad, various other ruins in Mordor, and maybe some to Moria, or other abandoned dwarven mines. However, I would imagine that many of their leaders would have died either at the battle of Pelennor field or at the Black Gates. After that they would have dwindled without the leadership or courage to come forth and attack the lands of men.
In the cartoon version of LOTR, when Sam was tempted by the ring, he imagined himself using the ring to turn the orcs into animals, who then fled into the wilds. I can't help but imagine that actually happening, the orcs turning into animals without a supernatural master to keep them sapient. Probably not very canonical, but a lot nicer than most options presented so far.
Excellent work Mellon! KEEP IT UP. "ELENDIL! ELENDIL! FOR THE WEST!" I'm reading the Field of Cormallen currently....for the 80th time. Never wanes, never gets old..kind of like Lady Galadriel
Great video as always. Your channel is a beacon of good content from Tolkien's mythology amid so many channels that have degenerated in the face of this bad Amazon fanfic. Keep up the good work.
Thank you for the comment but did you watch it at 12x speed? 😅 it's only been up 2 minutes! And yes, I made a post about how this channel will handle Amazon videos. It basically won't :D ...
I love thinking of orc mercenaries appearing individually among the cities of the easterlings as a rare sight once in a while, but highly prized. Something like Boba Fett in Star Wars.
It seems to me that at least some Ocs survived the first couple centuries of the Fourth Age. Tolkien's abandoned sequel suggests the lingering of some dark power that would have necessitated the use of a force capable of disrupting the peace and prosperity of Middle Earth, and what better fodder than surviving Orcs looking for some purpose to give their lives meaning again? Sauron was not the only remaining ancient evil in the world, after all-the Watcher in the Water and Shelob are proof of that. We also do not know exactly how many Balrogs survived besides Durin's Bane. If one could dwell in Moria virtually undetected so long after the banishment of Morgoth to the Outer Void, it stands to reason there might be others. A Balrog wouldn't be as powerful or as intelligent as Sauron, or as capable of uniting all the evil of Middle Earth to its cause, but perhaps it might have just enough cunning and charisma, such as it is, to sway whatever living Orcs are still around in the early Fourth Age to action. Now as to the possibility for redemption with regards to Orcs, I say it is at the very least possible, if not very likely. Interbreeding over generations with wicked Men may dilute the bloodlines, but that they are capable of it at all suggests some relationship yet remaining between the two races, especially if those whom Morgoth turned were hybrids of Elves and Men and therefore could be said to the twisted descendants of such experimentation by the Dark Lord. As such, regardless of their level of intellect, it would necessarily mean that Orcs do in fact have spirits or souls, but because of their corruption are bound to a different path in the Afterlife than that originally meant for their human ancestors. Perhaps just as there may be among modern good folk a little bit of Hobbit, in evil Men there may be a bit of Orc.
I see Aragorn and Gondor wiping them out from the Mountains of Mordor. Then him helping the Sons of Elrond clearing them from the Misty Mountains and Mirkwood. But it may be Aragorn's heirs or someone else to drive them from the Grey Mountains. Oh yeah, the video reminded me that the Dwarves would get rid of the orcs of Moria.
Tolkien's sequel specifically had no lingering supernatural evil, only Men who felt retroactively drawn to that irretrievably bygone power and sought with futility to revive its effects by aping its forms. Think like a cargo cult.
Only just found your channel, two minutes in and I had to pause and comment, instant subscribe, instant follow.! Looks like some well prepared, well thought out content on the way!
Incredible video as always. I always found interesting the dichotomy between being created to serve dark lords, yet they only want to loot and raid without big bosses. That and how they survived after the defeat of Morgoth but not after Sauron's, as thousands years passed before he started to spoil ME again. Do we have any comparison between the Uruks and Uruk-Hai in terms of battle capacity?
Orcs are not stupid, they are simply weak-willed. Weak willed in the sense that they can easily be controlled by a greater power like Sauron or even Saruman, but they are also weak willed in the sense that they are extremely vulnerable to temptation, which probably makes redemption extra difficult. Orcs are aware of their situation and they would rather act for their own benefit than that of some dark lord. Being weak of will means they are selfish, lazy, cruel to the weak and fawning to the strong and always up to mischief of some sort. There might be some exceptionally bright orcs who have enough wisdom and at least enough positive traits to understand kindness and mercy given to them, but they might be far and few between since these traits would single them out and make them targets. I think that even if you can redeem orcs, most would still be easy prey to temptation or fall back on negative traits in times of stress. Maybe if given enough time and the right conditions some orcs might find some kind of peaceful life far from things that might cause them to regress.
Brilliant atmosphere and narration. Wasn't there at least one heroic if not good Orc? From the Lay of Leithian: Boldog he sent, and Boldog was slain How came ye not in Boldog's train? "Baldaeg" was the Anglo-Saxon name for Balder (the Beautiful). My take is, Tolkien "differentiated" his material. As a Scot you might know the story of True Thomas, Thomas the Rhymer. There is a lot about this in Robert Chambers' "Popular Rhymes of Scotland" which we know Tolkien consulted. I won't drag this out with detail, but in Chambers' account of Thomas can be found Lorien, Cerin Amroth, Dol Guldur, Radagast, Rhosgobel, the Elessar, Arwen's fate and more. But (to Tolkien) it was a muddle of Good and Bad which he needed to separate out.
Thanks! A lot of channels cover Tolkien stuff so I always want to make the videos stand out visually as well as the content I'm speaking about. Happy to hear they are subtle too!
@@TheRedBook love how your spelling correction was subtle as well! 🤣.... well done, but I will call myself out. Funny thing is my keyboard tried to assist me and I ignored, lol.
Personally I think Eldarion enslaved their remnants and they later became both a food ingredient and staff personal at McDonald's and the house of parliament... but probably I will be smarter after watching this video! Have a lovely week, Steven : )
I always imagined that the cult of morgoth or sauron would survive amongst the orcs. That someday a great leader would unite the orcs and they would develop firearms or some other kind of technology and they would become a major menace to the West and to the East.
Great analysis as ever. I think Tolkien imagined that some of the mythical creatures, like elves, dwarves, hobbits, trolls, etc, might still be found, though only in extreme cases. The idea of the connection between England and elves comes to mind. But also that these other races would live on within human populations as character traits. A human with good traits could have some elf blood in their veins, and a person with bad traits could have some orc blood. I know these ideas are somewhat rasist, but still I think they are quite clear trends in Tolkien's work.
I think it's an interesting thought, I wouldn't say it was racist at all -- but I'm sure plenty of others would disagree (as always). Maybe better to say that some humans behaving poorly would have their actions considered Orcish, rather than a running trait through their blood?
@@TheRedBook : That's a better take on it. It's still a division of races though to consider poor behavior as "Orcish" when there are so many clear examples of Humans, Dwarves, and even Elves committing atrocities themselves. We got to see through Gollums story in particular that at least the possibility for redemption exists in what is otherwise considered an "evil" being. I think that passage after Sauron was defeated expressed the idea quite well that they had been so brainwashed for so long that many of them even committed suicide en masse. Another sad part of a long tale spanning multiple ages. Like many other great authors, Tolkiens genius in no small part came from owning compassion as a quality above all others. I have been reflecting a lot lately on the brainwashing going on in our own world, and how the internet has made it so much easier to brainwash people with disinformation, even though it's also made it easier to find more truths and evolve beyond the propaganda of all of the various governments, who in the end are all vying for power because so much bigotry still divides The People. I think it's super important for people everywhere from any so-called "side" to remember two things: 1) we were all innocent babies in the beginning, and 2) that no one ever asks to be brainwashed. Thanks for the video too! I really enjoy these and find your own insights on Tolkiens great works very interesting. ^-^
@Anders Gustafsson : _"I think Tolkien imagined that some of the mythical creatures, like elves, dwarves, hobbits, trolls, etc"_ I wouldn't doubt it. And it's something I've often imagined myself. Another thing I've more often thought of though, is that Middle Earth exists in an alternate, parallel, or other type of dimension. Or maybe that is just part of my desire to escape our world where things seem even more convoluted and too _close to home_ as they say.
@@TheRedBook Tolkien certainly was not racist. Very opposite, he was antiracist both in war times and at times of peace. His sons had fought against a racist dictatorship. We should however consider the fact that Tolkien lived in time when social darwinistic attitudes and in general racist pseudoscience still had some influence as accepted science of the time. Which was by some used to justify social hierarchy in society. Aristocrats and nobles having more ideal race attributes than lower class commoners, or criminals. Unfortunately even most emphatic and educated people of the time would have been fooled. Tolkien, even if very empathic and reasonable person, most likely was influenced by this. He potrays descendents or Eärendil being nobles with elvish and divine maiar blood in their veins, and through the union of Aragorn and Arwen, this lineage was strenghtened. At the other end of spectrum, we are given descriptions of wicked half orc men, who have infiltrated streets of Bree.
A study found that mice that drank diet soda (aspartame) produced offspring that had anxiety. So in a way, food, drink and medication could change animals and people into something other than thier normal state.
That ants analogy was spot on. Sauron’s spirit was to dark creatures what Eru is to every other creature. It makes sense given the discord Eru. Melkor and Sauron bastardized whatever they could. Even their own ultimate destruction is a testament to that. Eru created them, and in turn they wanted to mock, corrupt, and destroy whatever Eru or his other children created. Although unforeseen on their end, the damage Melkor and Sauron do to themselves fits with their nature.
Two potential endings I've subscribed to. 1. They "dwindle" as the elves who did not go West after Sauron was defeated. 2. The entire mythos being a prehistoric forgotten civilization trope, the "Men" are modern men and the Orcs are Neanderthals. Which holds up under the science of the time, where Neanderthals were considered more brutish (not going to get into why that is wrong) and adding in later discoveries where, particularly in Europe, Neanderthals "died out", in part by breeding with modern humans. Similarly, other parts of our world have equivalent "early men" who disappeared. Yes, ethnic cleansing probably killed it's own share.
Do you think orcs ever engaged in "respectable" commerce ever? Is there a reference to it anywhere? I imagine with all that raiding and looting, theyd eventually want to spend their ill gotten gains somewhere. Plus it seems impossible for them to have lasted so long being 100% hostile to all sentient beings all the time always.I always found it strange that with all the emphasis on pity, we're never invited to pity the orcs. Yet they seem less culpable for their actions than Gollum. This obviously bothered Tolkien too lol. Ive never seen him strain so hard as when trying ro solve the "orc problem."
Interesting question. There's no mention of it from any text I've read.Maybe raiding and looting for food, weaponry, supplies? I'd have to assume that the building of their smaller bands would be more than a group hiding in a dark cave. Tolkien mentions "Strongholds" - they would be somewhat organised, able to build, even if it was crude. I think my next video on Orcs (whenever that comes) will be about pity for them. But it will again highlight that despite the message being that we should sympathise with such evil figures - even some noble figures in the Legendarium can't help but loathe them. It will always be the "Orc problem".
Yes. "[Goblins] did not hate dwarves especially, no more than they hated everybody and everything, and particularly the orderly and prosperous; in some parts wicked dwarves had even made alliances with them." - The Hobbit, chapter 5: Over Hill and Under Hill. So if they were making alliances with dwarves it seems to me likely they would also trade with them. I've always read Gandalf's statement "And for me, I pity even his slaves" as including the Orcs.
@@TheRedBook please don’t take offense to this comment, but when I hear of the “orc problem” my mind instantly goes to the “Jewish” problem and the Holocaust. Not that Jews and orca have anything in common, but the mindset of the free peoples of middle earth when compared to the German general population, and the German high command and government of the 1930’s and 40’s.
@@TheRedBook Personally I thought the orcs and trolls wandered around after the fall of Sauron. They probably worked with the surving captains after the grand crash. Surving in East and South from Baurudur. Maybe tales of battles of Orcs and trolls fghting Men of the West in the east? What happened to the eastern Orcs of the second age? Didn't they stop serving Sauron after he went to Nummenour?
I certainly believe you have a better understanding of Aragorn than George Martin does. Love your speculations and your honesty for when things aren’t very black and white. The orcs are a very interesting race.
The things that aren't black and white are always the most interesting - plus, I'm someone who thinks that if there isn't an answer then it's perfectly fine to admit it. I'd hate to see my thoughts on Orcs in the Fourth Age are "fact" but I think I make that clear too :)
Dammit another Tolkien lore channel? Ok then I'll add it to the list of subs I guess, this is only like number 10. Pretty original style though honestly, I'm sure it's worth it.
I’m somewhere between sorrow, horror and pity. This is one of those areas where because Tolkien chose to write his work….in a different way there are horrible consequences for what should be considered “living creatures” and he and I live in a world where “All life is equally sacred and valuable” is a pillar of our existence. We cannot amend that truth and while I don’t believe he breaks it here for fiction sake, I know the principles the seeds that would give rise to “The Tale of The Orcs” I am convinced I understand what tree the fruit is from although I’ve heard what’s been said and I won’t fight or argue with anyone on this issue. Ol’ J gave his blessing? Fine, have at it. Me? All I can say is this tale no matter how hard anyone tries if you have the full story in mind it’s more of a Lamentation a true tragedy and these creatures are to be the most pitied in in the entire story and the idea of warfare or genocide once darkness has no hold on them is cruel…so painfully cruel it is horrifying. Elves: a creation, fall, restoration Men: a creation, fall, restoration Dwarves: WERE NOT supposed to exist are ADOPTED into the fabric of reality and fade in peace Orcs: creation? No. Corruption, fall? No. They were corrupt from their Genesis and the corruption was passed on. Adoption? No. There is no sign that happened other than they didn’t all die when the kingdom of darkness they were enslaved in was finally crushed. The End. Hopelessness for living creatures for the rest of their days to be outsiders forever and J (I’m not angry or upset just shocked) put no means of remedy to their problem. The Orcs need Salvation. Only The One can do it. It was said as much correctly and I’m aghast. I have heard the line I know what people say about My world, Tolkiens world and Arda. I am not here too do anything other than enjoy but this video makes me shudder at the end. It’s the nightmare we who walk by faith firmly renounce. My comfort is that because this is a work of fiction and not I don’t know an allegory such an atrocity is fine and I even think it’s better to shine no lights on the matter. The story is finished, no hope for a whole race of living creatures to ever have peace in life or in death. The End. I’m glad it’s just limited to this, and he explained himself and it makes sense. Oh and he didn’t go down the Narnia route because of all that I can still travel through Arda in peace 😆poor Orcs though. EDIT: Major edit! And I’m not just deleting the comment or adding a separate comment. I’ve considered both and am choosing to do this. Because I’ve heard the full statement of Tolkien from a later video in this playlist 😎😉 I will leave a like and I also thought about it some more I hear what he is saying. I think in death there’s a hope for restoration, although Mr. Martin’s assumption of genocide is….vexing. Very vexing. So Ol’J did see the problem well and true, that’s good. Still spiritually gruesome but fine it’s a myth it’s ok. My feathers are a little less ruffled, my Fire much more lively and bright! Still sad for poor Orcs…no I am not going to start a movement lmao I’ve got enough work to do in this world! 🤣🤣
I do not believe Aragorn would ever have had to trouble himself with Orcs after Sauron’s dissolution. Orcs were always wholly subservient to the dark powers that made them. They were capable of rebellion when there was opportunity to elevate their station, and in fact always seemed to look for opportunities for just that, at the expense of their fellow Orcs. No, when Sauron was defeated the only thing keeping Orcs loathing, hatred and bloodlust in check (his yoke on them) was removed. I do not imagine Orc armies stayed together; they would have slaughtered eachother. Not all at once, not in a concerted effort as grand as a civil war, but as opportunities presented themselves. Alone and in small groups, but groups without loyalty, without established chains of command or even a supreme leader. Allies only of the moment, as necessity dictated, and then, enemies again because each Orc is ultimately now only for himself. I do not imagine the Orcs were redeemable. Their corruption spans eons, and is complete, regardless of their origins. They can be no more saved than Ring Wraith, nor do they wish to be. They are completely evil, as their Master shaped them to be. Repentance is not possible for such as these… and if it were, even among a few, or one, his fellows would dispatch him in short order.
Not of the Dagor Dagorath. It's a quote about the Last Alliance "All living things were divided in that day, and some of every kind, even of beasts and birds, were found in either host, save the Elves only"
@@andersgustafsson5533 - It's very debatable. Some do read it that way. I read it more as a comment that those you would assume were 'good' could be corrupted and served 'the other side' - so evil men and dwarves, mostly. Maybe a comment highlighting that the Elves would never be corrupted in that way? It would be remarkable if it was only this one comment in all the Legendarium speaking of Orcs fighting against Sauron - which is probably why I don't read it that way...
@@TheRedBook I don't think so either. Orcs probably never fought in any war against Sauron together with men and elves, though there must have been plenty of conflicts between different kind of orcs with differing degrees of affiliation with Sauron, or between orcs and other servants of Sauron.
I imagine they all died out on their own. The way Tolkien wrote their reaction to Sauron's death makes me think of nihilism. If the Orcs succumbed to nihilism then they would all die sooner or later, either by suicide or psychological death (losing the will to live so the body shuts down).
I know!!! I think often that I’m the only one who thinks this type of stuff. But I’m not crafty enough to make a channel. You’re Killer dude. And it’s refreshing to here your channel. And your opinions. 🤙 makes sense to me.
An excellent video once again. I think orcs do deserve some degree of sympathy. They are the products of evil and are violent by nature. Their demise was garuanteed by their maker. Their Redemption only found with Eru Illuvitar.
It was about 10 minutes longer when I wrote it because I went through a whole part about if we should sympathise with them. I ended up taking it out because I think that would make a good video on its own.
@@TheRedBook Only if their inherently evil/chaotic nature can be cured. Otherwise you are simply inviting the barbarians to pillage your kingdom, like the Celts did to Rome that one time when Rome was just a small city-state.
GRR Martin's hostility toward the idea of Elessar should be enough to cause disregard of Martin in all things Tolkien. Beyond that, an outstanding commentary on Orcs in the Fourth Age
As if he even has the right! He's a second date shut writer who thought he. Kyle compete with Tolkien. Utter trash. Maybe I'm being harsh, but how dare he!?
You fundamentally misunderstand both Tolkien and Martin. Tolkien wouldn’t disagree with Martin when Martin says that Ellesar lacks dimensions to make him relateable. Tolkiens heroes were written like heroes from Epic Poems. No one seriously questions whether Beowulf is a fully fleshed character; he’s not….he simply exists as a heroic figure and his politics, details of personal relationships with his mean, and his internal struggles are simply absent. This was intentional on Tolkiens part; and adding the dirty details of human life to Martin’s characters was intentional so that people can relate to Tyrion or Rob Stark in ways they never could Aragorn. That you see Martin’s observations on Tolkien as hostility says more about you then it does Martin who clearly doesn’t demonstrate hostility, and has only spoken on the matter when asked.
@@anglerfish4161 Its not a hot take, its a valid literary opinion. For someone who hated allegory, Gandalfs resurrection is a little too on the nose (Jesus). This is a valid and arguable opinion, and doesn’t detract from Tolkien’s work.
Great video, looking forward to what comes next, I would look forward to see what happened to the other forces of darkness after the start of the 4th age.
I think talk of what happened to Wicked Men would be rather interesting. Would probably tie into my thoughts on The New Shadow - plenty of room for speculation there.
Much respect... few give these races that view... The fact that they would have wanted more or could have became something... but evil begets evil... even if men do not realize it... They too are blinded by hate. Thank you for this video
It seems Orcs would die out quickly as without Bosses they have no ability to make things, grow things, etc. As you state, they would have lost purpose and drive - they would have no idea how to survive other than emerging on some raid only to be wiped out soon after. They would have lost all organization and we know they are too eager to fight amongst themselves.
My opinion relates them as a dark mirror of the Numenoreans. I see orcs as primarily a base of Men (with Uruk-Hai being somewhat less corrupted) who have dark "gifts" from Morgoth and to an extent Sauron that explain their appearance and habits. As the 4th and later ages go, I see a slow withdrawal of these gifts so that each generation is more like Men and less corrupted until they merge fully into the race of men as a strengthening element in the darker aspects of human nature.
wonder how many times GRR Martin has read LOTR. If I hadnt reread it as an adult I think I might say stupid things about it too. I went through a phase, after my initial teenage fandom,of thinking the Lord of the Rings was too simplistic for my elevated tastes. Of course in actual fact, I was the one too simplistic for Tolkien. I wonder if GRRM never reread it and never grew out of that phase.
I've always imagined that yes, yes they are. The other pertinent question: What about half-orcs? Do they choose between mortality and immortality like the half-elves?
Thanks :D I've never watched any videos from that channel but I don't watch much Tolkien content on TH-cam. I'll be sure to check that out though since you mentioned the channel by name!
@@TheRedBook yours and his channels are my go to for Tolkien lore on TH-cam, you both have different styles of content presentation but both great quality on touching on unanswered scenarios on a range of different topics on the legendarium
This is a good one that I just found today, but I can't even say now how many subs I have for this specific content by now. I probably have as many for Star Trek, Star Wars, Lovecraft, Warhammer, Halo, comics, movie and horror channels. Yes I got my official nerd card coming in the mail. 🤓
Would you make one great video about Tolkien theogony, particularly about Eru Ilúvatar. Thank You for your great MAGNUM OPUS, creating this kinds of video.
I always like to imagine few orcs were spared by Aragon and allowed to live in peace in some small green mountainous valley and over the years they became peaceful, isolated and known only to a few but a people that keep to themselves. Maybe that's just because an end of a people, any people doesn't sit well with me 😅
If the orcs couldn't overcome the curses of Morgoth, they would probably never be found and would breed just enough to not disapear, waiting for a new dark lord to have control on them. if there would be a new dark lord, they would start to repopulate middle earth, which would be similar to a zombie apoclaypse.
Here's a question. Do Orcs even pass out of Arda after death? It is said that Men have a fate beyond death outside of Arda with Illuvitar, but that Elves are eternally of the world, and pass simply to the Houses of the Dead, from which they can even return at times. So what then becomes of an Orc when it dies?
This video taught me that such are the tragedy of the orcs. Irredeemable race out of hatred and violence. Their harsh existence poured out of vain slewing themselves away from human encounter.
On this topic, I have throughts aplenty. So much so, in fact, that this may not come out in a highly organized fashion. It was always my impression that the orcs were meant as much to show the bigger, badder origins of "goblins" in thesame way that Tolkien's elves were meant to show the greater truth behind "Faeries" and the like. Which is to say, that they might only be "gone" in the same way that the elves, hobbits, and so on are: we simply can't find or see them anymore, and they may be much diminished. If they are still here, perhaops some have found a sort of redemption as the kinder "hobgoblins" found in old folklore. On the other hand, Tolkien's pretty unambiguous statment that Men would finish off the last orcs, torlls, dragons, and so on paints a different picture. That Orc-blooded humans are still with us is not hard to believe; in fact, it honestly explains quite a few people out there! But then, another possibility occurs to me, which potentially contradicts both all of the above: that Orcs are indeed redeemable, and may well be trying . . . and they are with us in spirit for that very reason. For if Elves (as the Orcs originally were) could be reincarnated, perhaps Orcs could, too. Perhaps their spirits have returned to us in the form of untold numbers of human souls, trying to find redemption by doing it all over again . . . with naturally mixed results. THAT could explain a lot about people, too.
I can see communities rising like in Skyrim - orc clans existing with men, elves, and dwarves. Men and dwarves would make a killing in the meat market - selling cows and other cattle. While the orcs could make a killing as undertakers
What about the goblins in goblin town? There was a shit ton of em. And based on how they talked, they didn't 'seem' to be under any mind influence. If they were, then why didn't they show up to the black gates? What about the nameless things that Gandolph refers to that have no alliance or are subject to any power? Elrond mentions these things that are haters of all things that go on two legs. To me Orcs are the easy equation.....they don't live very long, not even an average age that a human does. And what about the trolls? It doesn't say that all trolls were at the final battle? Did Moria completely empty at the final battle??????? "There are older and fouler things than orcs in the deep places of the world." These are the questions that this viewer has, and I would appreciate anyone that can shed light on them? Love ur vids!
Great video on this topic. My feeling was always that they would dwindle as one by one were picked off. Hindi g in the deep places and living sad lives. Thanks for this
My theory of what happens to the orcs? They flee their destruction, deep into the earth, and come upon the nameless things, and in their desperate flight, worship or serve the nameless things. Becoming even more corrupted and twisted beyond any resemblance of humanoid creatures.
I have always been under the assumption, since orcs were corrupted elves, and elves are reborn after death, instead of given an after life, Orcs are the reborn souls of elves. This would also mean there is a finite number of souls for both orcs and elves. With orcs breeding faster, the orcs are replacing the elves which is why there are far fewer elves in the 3rd and 4th age while orcs are thriving. Regardless, Morgoth corrupted the orcs to be everything the elves were not. Orcs hate all things that make the elves who they are. That includes nature, art, love and compassion. This is why they so readily followed Sauron, as he was opposed to everything the Arda created, and loved.
There was about 500 years as I recall between Morgoth being cast into the Void and Sauron starting to rise as the new Dark Lord in Middle-Earth so orcs were able at least to keep a viable population that long. While I don't for a moment think Aragorn would have committed genocide against the orcs, I do believe he and his allies would have mounted campaigns to destroy any groups of orcs that would be a danger to the peace and safety in the lands of the Free Peoples. Some of these groups could be quite large as there were many orcs living in places like the Misty Mountains that would likely survived the War of the Ring. Even if expeditions were not sent into Moria to attack the orcs there, I think Aragorn and his allies would have built bases near to each entrance into Moria to prevent groups of orcs from coming out of Moria to attack the Free Peoples settlements nearby. I also think that without Sauron to keep them in line, men like the Haradrim and the Easterlings would have ended up fighting the orcs in their lands. Add to that the orcs own tendencies towards internecine warfare and I would guesstimate they all gone within a 1000 years. I agree that I don't think the orcs were redeemable within the circles of Arda. Perhaps the earliest generations of orcs might have had some individuals who would have responded to a more nurturing and less aggressive environment, especially if they had been taken from orc tribes when very young, but after all these thousands of years of brutality and aggression being ingrained into them, it would have become part of their nature.
What about Gorbag and Shagrat discussing “setting up on their own with a few sturdy lads” after the end of the war? Independence was still in the minds of morgul and Cirith Ungal orcs prior to the fall of the tower.
I picture a similar scenario in which the surviving orcs of the fourth age, many of whom may not have been directly involved in Sauron's final battle against Aragorn's forces, are rounded up and culled over the decades, and - like the 'misunderstood' monsters of I Am Legend - come to view *themselves* as the persecuted, developing a sort of ethnic grievance against the triumphant race of man. now, if someone were to come along and harness that grievance...
I think that would be 1 last thing the elves and wizards would be asked to do before leaving to the undying lands is to find and either slay or better purify the orcs of every last ounce of evil!!!!
Between Morgoth's fall and Sauron's rise the Orcs probably DID decline, divide and die off, just not enough to go extinct. With no one replacing Sauron however, the trajectory lasted longer than that previous between period, in fact, it never ended so the Orcs are gone, had Sauron's rise been delayed long enough, they would have probably done so as well, but keep in mind that Sauron's ability to give Orcs drive, might still have existed in a very tiny form between his rise and his master's fall. Post-Sauron, there isn't even an iota of power driving them.
Very interesting. However, wasn't Morgoth prophesised (through the Song of Arda) to break out of his imprisonment/re-enter Arda? [Perhaps I mis-remember the Song?]. If so, do Orcs survive until then or does Morgoth create a new tool to work his will through?
I cannot see Aragorn committing genocide. Combating until nearly all are dead, yes, but actively hunting down every last one, even the few who never fought? no.
Dang, you're now my favorite LOTR channel, there are a few other good ones, but they really don't hold a candle your craftsmanship. I am very pleased how you reverence the Lore, especially in a chaotic/PC agenda driven time like now, and don't think that the subtle little touches you put in don't get noticed, they do(Well composed backdrops of artwork, glimmers of light as the text hits the screen, moody soundtrack and rain...Nice!... Looking forward to the next one!
It’s for more advanced people in the lore. Nothing against the other channels, but it’s like “oh yeah” with most of their content. Has its place and I do enjoy them, but yeah.
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since Tolkien wrote his lore as some kind of pre-european history i kind of imagine that orcs as they declined and became more isolated and solitude became the more dark lonesome creatures of our later folklore.
Thats quite an interesting take
It's a good idea - it's certainly something that fits with the Goblins of The Hobbit - before Tolkien really got into depth about the fading of others and the dominion of Men. It would seem reasonable to imagine Orcs becoming fairy taie monsters in forests, etc.
@@TheRedBook something like the Mewlips! The hobbits had myths about imaginary evil creatures so we know that there is a precedent in Tolkiens world
I think of it more like the Conan Earth or Hyborian Age, similar but not our own.
Me too! Orc derives from Old English orcnēas meaning monster or something similar. But it seems to derive from the Roman god of the Underworld, Orcus
How refreshing to find the lore treated with the respect it deserves :) I always stuck with Tolkien's earlier idea that orcs were corrupted Elves. I know he ended up disliking the idea but it is the only one that fits the timeline and it is not too much of a stretch to imagine the 1st born waking on Arda only to have a few stolen away by Morgoth and ruined.
Only the very first Orcs were corrupted Elves. Both male and female Elves were captured and corrupted into Orcs. And these first Orcs retained their ability to breed and give birth to live young. Indeed their fertility was massively, exponentially increased over their original Elvish form, surpassing even the fertility of Men - but at the cost of nearly all their other powers and attributes, making them extremely weak compared to the Elves, especially the Noldor.
I learned from the video that Saruman got the idea of Uruk-hai from Sauron's Uruks.
@@timonsolus eru can just remove the inmortality from corrupted elfs like he did with humans in a deleted morgoht ring stiory
@@FULANODETAL "like he did with humans"? Mortality was built-in to humans from the start.
This video reminds me of a scene of The Return of the King animated where Sam invisions what her would do if he claimed the One Ring. We see Mordor turn into a garden and he runs into some Orcs travelling who instead of attacking they smile and wave as if to say, 'Whats up!'
They ended working at Amazon under the a new darkling lord, one who lacks as much of a soul as hair on his head.
Bezogorth, first of his name of the fourth age. The true dark lord of the west and bringer of cheap products and high membership rates.
And the destroyer of Tolkien lore.
May the light of the Valar shine upon you!
Hahaha that’s hilarious and true
Bezogorth: The Destroyer of Middle Class/Earth.
This was as ever good stuff. I agree Aragorn, has no genocide in his nature. That orcs are redeemable is an important concept for Tolkien as is Aragorns pity. Being unable to answer these questions as a reader would have delighted Tolkien the mythologist. He struggled with reconciling religious, mythic and narrative imperatives in relation to orcs, my belief is that this is the reason for the abandonment of the new shadow, he was driven back to earlier parts of the legendarily, to try to cut this Gordian knot. My wife came in at the end of my watching and asked why you talked about orcs, I explained she said simply “they went away.” I never question her wisdom, so there we have as definitive a answer as we will ever have. Thanks and keep up the good work.
The wild men surrendered at Helm's Deep but orcs did not and met their fate among the huorns and ents. If some did surrender to Aragorn, I think he would allow them to live out their lives peacefully in captivity, but not have offspring, so they would die out one way or another.
Our Earth knows genocide, but I don't see it as the same in Middle Earth. I think Aragorn would work to exterminate them in the Mountains of Mordor, as well as the Misty Mountains along with the Sons of Elrond.
Jose, could you point me to where he said that they are redeemable? I would be interested to read through that, if that is indeed what he said.
@@sandal_thong8631 It looked like the trees did a good job of mopping up after Helm's Deep in the movies, so I certainly think it possible to imagine that surviving Orcs were hunted down. Tolkien probably doesn't talk about it too much precisely because you're not really supposed to. You could probably re-write Lord of The Rings as being a massive history of War Crimes if you wanted, but I think maybe that would not be quite in the spirit of it!!
@@Comakino he said other things, in the story and in his letters and other writing, which show the importance of redemption for him and indeed the story. His first conversation with Frodo about Gollum, is possibly the most striking example.
Orcs are not redeemable dude, they are fully corrupted. Maybe you got that incorrect opinion from playing Shadow of War.
This ended up being far longer than originally planned and I went a bit deeper than just speculating about Orcs in the Fourth Age. I wanted to discuss the power Morgoth and Sauron held over Orcs, as well as some talk of redeemability. Hope it was worth the wait. Expecting many to have different views than my own speculation about Orcs here, interested in hearing your thoughts.
I would like to note that sometimes the audiobook does not match the quoted text on the screen - this is usually due to some misreadings from the audiobook itself and I always use the text as it is written by Tolkien. The audio is still worth using though but thought I would mention it in case it seems like there are some errors every now and again! A couple of them appear in quote sections on this video - not a big deal...
Updates coming soon about the next video!
I can't imagine Aragorn leading a genocidal campaign to wipe out orcs from Middle Earth. Nor do I think he ever had to.
I have always thought that orcs were raised from infancy to be merciless killing machines. I think they would have killed any orc babies born with "defects" of any kind. I think that all male orc children were likely taken from their mothers at an early age and raised collectively by cruel task masters who taught them to hate and kill, maybe even each other, so that only the strongest, cruelest orcs made it in the armies, the rest being forced to do other manual labor that was necessary to support the army, such as war gear production or even farming and food production.
Also I believe they would have left injured orcs on the battlefield to die. Personally, I feel that they had no regard for life of any kind, including their own. So I could easily see them killing themselves and each other once the presence of Sauron was gone from their lives, similar to the infighting among orcs that we read about in the Two Towers. Tens of thousands could kill each other for revenge of some kind, me thinks.
Your talk of Orcs there reminds me of Sparta, which is interesting. Raised to fight, discarding the weak.
Still, there is some camaraderie there. We see Orcs willing to even travel in sunlight to avenge fallen Orcs in The Two Towers. Some chapters with Orcs really hint at something more than mindless killing machines, which I find interesting.
@@TheRedBook
Any thing less means they are all potentially redeemable. I think they can get along with other orcs as long as they don't feel threatened, but I think their nature is to rat each other out, so camaraderie could be a way to get "dirt" on someone that they could use to get favorable treatment from the captains. I really think orcs had to do whatever they could to survive even when they were not at war.
I believe some Orcs, those with some kind of lands of their own (the Misty Mountains for example) might have, with time, bred closer to what they had been. Given my own theories, this means 3 different "breeds" at last. First would be more and more like unto clever animals. Second would become more manlike. Third in time would become akin to Elves. So legends in later days of Kobolds, Red Caps and the like would be the last remnants of Morgoth's terrible crime. Fading over long ages.
Until, eventually, some became bankers for Wizarding kind, running Gringot's for example.
A grim but probably accurate take on the fate of Orcs in The Fourth Age. Just as real-life theists have to grasp with theodicy, so too did Tolkien have to grasp with it as God of such an intricate world. Sadly, beyond atheism or Christian teachings of faith, there is no way to reconcile Eru Illuvatar's providence with Melkor's evil where Orcs are concerned. Letter 153 really read like an author trying to justify and make peace with the horrible implications of his secondary world's logic. The only way is to have 'estel' like Christians have faith.
It is a relief to see that you have not fallen under the influence of the Amazon 😁 keep up the great stories, you delight me every time
Simply because no adaptation will ever be as interesting to discuss as the works of Tolkien. Even the very best adaptation - because all that is good about it would be owed to Tolkien anyway :D
@@Yuuzhanvon Where is it written we need to "hate" Amazon to appreciate JRRT. And who made you dictator of "the community." Unless you have legal control of the canon I don't need to take your words seriously and don't. Let each creator do the work that suits them.
I’m not THAT excited to watch this amazon shit. But ima watch it. Fuck it. Might be some cool shit. And truthfully, it’s gonna suck. But maybe a couple cool scenes. Real shit. I get less exited every day. But I’m thinking somebody someday might make a legit show or something. Some day. Maybe when we’re both 60. Somebody will make some true Tolkien inspired content. 🤞
@@TheRedBook very very true
What the hell does this even mean? You’ve commented on this beautifully made video to take an unrelated cheap shot at the new adaptation (presumably because you don’t like the parent company patronizing it). Immature and classless.
This is by far my favorite Chanel on Tolkiens work. May You never run out of thoughts to share. Thanks mate!
Thanks, Robert. I have enough ideas for 2022 at least. I hope by that time the Tolkien Estate will have sent me a big fat cheque to write a book - one can dream 😁
I like to imagine that as orc hordes perished in great battles there was a huge backlog of elvish souls needing healing of their corruption in the Halls of Mandos. Perhaps to be given flesh and a fresh start in Aman, or a rebirth in Arda Renewed after the end of the world.
Fits with the theme of post-Dagor Dagorath Arda being better than the first and uncorrupted by Morgoth.
Personally, I prefer the idea that they were corrupted elves. It's much more tragic. Imagine what those first orcs looked like. I'm sure they changed over time as they bred with each other and other strains formed. There are some really great and striking illustrations of the change if you search.
It’s the little things in life that bring happiness. One of them is learning a new The Red Book video has arrived, then grabbing a beer or cup of coffee and settling in, knowing the ride will be both entertaining and enlightening. Thanks to and All Hail The Red Book!
I liketo imagine that the remnants of orcs, trolls and dragons that lingered on ended up inspiring the monsters of northern mythology, like Grendel from Beowulf.
So your saying lotr lore is beowulfs lore. Uhmmm... okay?
@@brandonmunsen6035 It's not very nice to put your words in place of other people's words. Read it again. "I like to imagine"... He didn't say what you said...
@@brandonmunsen6035 LOTR is written partially to be a mythology of Europe's past. So this really isn't that outrageous.
@@brandonmunsen6035 Tolkien openly stated he saw his Legendarium as a mythic pre history of Europe, and as well as being an internationally famous Old English and Norse scholar, who made one of the major modern translations of Beowulf, a large chunk of poetry in LotR is Old English poetry verbatim.
So it completely fits the bill, probably canon if we dug through the literature
I like to think without Sauron's influence, the elvish nature of the orcs would begin to resurface, I think this would be more in keeping with the song of Illuvatar, seeing as he showed mercy and granted life to the dwarves after the were made in secret by the Valarand seeing as Illuvatar allowed for the dischord Morgoth sang into the song of creation
I do wonder what the "old times with no big bosses" referenced in the Gorbag and Shagrat conversation might have been. It implies a period when orcs had a degree of independance, and if still motivated by a desirre to destroy, seem to have been far less inclined, or compelled to band together in large numbers as footr soldiers of whatever evil overlord saw fit to control them.
Some read it as a reference to before the rise of Sauron way back in the 2nd age but I read that part as before Sauron returned and openly declared himself in Mordor - that time when he started to draw evil things to his land. It's likely that many Orcs were elsewhere at that time, in small bands or tribes. Then they would feel that pull to Mordor and they were drawn into a wider conflict. At least, how I read that part!
Maybe they could have made a small gang of highway-robbers, like trolls in the high country east of Bree, free of a boss's commands? As we saw, the two "tribes" exterminated each other. So I can't see this lasting long. Orcs breeding was enhanced by Sauron's will, so it must be slow without it.
Between Morgoth and Sauron’s reign I assume
@@TeChNoWC7 I don't think they'd remember a thousand years earlier.
@@sandal_thong8631 is it stated they remember? People often talk about ‘the good old days’ of times they were never alive for.
I like to think of orcs as similar to the Borg from Star Trek, once they are detached from the collective, most can't function without purpose and order from the collective. A small few are able to redeem their free will, create a purpose and a future, but this is a rarity. Their reentry into a society or culture wouldn't just be in their control, it would also take acceptance and help from others, this would be a difficult road for all but not impossible.
I think they would still fight and perhaps not breed as much, since increasing their numbers was brought about by Sauron.
I think that is probably a good take on it, since evil would would still exist in Middle Earth after Sauron and Melkor were both gone from it, but the chance of the corruption ever overtaking or destroying that world entirely would be gone after that point, and evil creatures would struggle to re-build their numbers without them.
Interesting theory. I still believe that the orcs are not completely irredeemable, even in life. Some colonies of them might continue to exist in the Fourth Age in remote areas like the Misty Mountains or the distant East, as you mentioned. Without the will of a Dark Lord driving them to hate and war, some orcs might be able to exist in their own underground societies in relative peace. They wouldn't be able to coexist with Men, because of the two races' previous history and Mankind's tendency to fear what it doesn't understand. And due to their corruption, the orcs might not be truly "good" as we define it. But I can imagine more or less neutral orcs wanting to just be left alone like Gorbag and his friend. Orcs of later ages would be surly, mischievous, elusive creatures, hiding in the shadowy places of the world and giving rise to the "later" legends of European goblins.
I would have to agree with Jim Bombadill's take. We have to keep in mind that Middle-Earth was our Earth in Tolkien's mind (or at least it became so later when he moved into more cohesive writing) and that the end of the third age sort of "set the stage" for later Europe to develop. Thus elves depart or they fade into mere sprites and folkloric faeries (the difference between these being something Tolkien was terribly concerned with) as did Hobbits who he at one point wrote still dwelled in the western parts of Europe albeit usually invisible. Thus orcs devolving into later goblins and similar "dark" folklore creatures by the seventh or so age (which is around where Tolkien pegged his lifetime). But of course this is all unpublished and thus speculative.
Nice video, came here from Girl Next Gondor.
Suggestion for a new video: The halls of lamentation (quoted by the Witch-king x Éowyn) and the wraith world (unseen world).
Or
Time travel in Tolkien's works.
Not to worry Rafael , I have those written down from previous videos with your name next to them 😅
@@TheRedBook : Nice! I second Rafaels suggestion. Although I am certain you've received so many good ones it could be difficult to decide witch to do first, or even find the time to do close to all of them. lols
No doubt everyone appreciates what you do manage though. ^-^
@@aylbdrmadison1051 That's pretty much it, I have so many ideas written down but can only do one video at a time - so some end up disappointed but I do hope to make all of them over time :D
A superb analysis. Your conclusions are doubtless the correct ones. Still, I naïvely wonder if mercy & redemption could have saved just a handful of orcs. We didn't see redemption in Gollum, in whom Sméagol was ultimately annihilated. Could the death of Sauron have led to a diminishment of hatred in some orcs, to the point that some eventually turned to good? Sadly that seems unlikely.
I think your line of hopeful thought is to be admired, not naïve.
I imagine a small, isolated community, maybe in the mountains, where a handful of orcs and men have built a tolerable co-existence. Maybe it begins out of necessity - surviving a harsh winter, perhaps - but the chance of a future is there.
Tolkien championed hope over almost everything. With your hope for even a handful of orcs, I believe that you're following his example.
Don'give Amazon any ideas.😆🤣😂🤣😂
I'm more pessimistic. I think the quotes I used about Sauron being an "agent" hints towards the hatred and nature of Orcs remaining intact following his demise. They are still the products of the original corruption of Morgoth - and they were not redeemed when he left the world - they still fought and hated until Sauron focused that hatred for his own purposes. As Tolkien says, it's their nature that is corrupted, that evil and bile within them. I don't think the removal of Sauron would fundamentally change them as a race.
_They were elves once._ I don't think it's as unlikely as many assume. I imagine that eventually given enough time Tolkien would have written about such things. His guiding principle was compassion, so it seems likely to me.
@@TheRedBook : I think it's more a matter of putting oneself in the shoes of another, and having the courage to be introspective about the harm we ourselves have done to others. For me personally, that ideal runs through so much of Tolkiens writings. One could even say that overall it's an essay on the dangers of racism and bigotry, and how the bonds of friendship can overcome them. If for no other reason, I wish he could have lived long enough for us to see where such ideas would have taken his works.
But then I am perhaps more optimistic. Something I gained in some part at least through his writings, in particular about hope. There is the one place where we see even Gandalf and Galadriels wisdom and foresight were found to be lacking..
_"There never was much hope, just a fool's hope, as I have been told."_ --Gandalf
_"Stray but a little and it will fail, to the ruin of all. Yet hope remains while all the Company is true."_ --Galadriel
In the end they were both proven wrong. I would say this is because they allowed fear to grow in their own wise hearts. One of the greatest quotes in the books though is..
_"Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends."_ --Gandalf
This for me sums up best what Tolkien may have been trying to convey. To not allow our own egos, our failings of hope, to direct our course of action.
_"All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."_ --Gandalf
I endeavor to do my best at that, and to make amends for my own failings where I am able.
My favourite thing about dedicated Tolkein channels is their voice-acting. It adds yet another level of immersion, and it's really professional.
Like Aulë created Dwarves, Yavanna created Ents, Morgoth created Orcs and Trolls.
Aulë made dwarves with an iron will (for good and bad) because he had no interest in dominating them and he didn't want Morgoth to dominate them. And when Eru Iluvatar confronted him, he renounced his dominion over the dwarves allowing Eru to give them life / free will.
Iluvatar made him notice they were without goals and when he didn't look after them, they were idle.
Morgoth, in my opinion, did the exact same thing. Create the Orcs (and like Aulë missed some detail in the design - like making males and females complementary). But Morgoth wanted dominion so he made orcs easy to control. But they were idle too when Morgoth didn't aim his attention at them. And here came Iluvatar, giving them life /free will. But, of course, Morgoth didn't agree to make them sleep until the Firstborn of Iluvatar were awakened first.
But the problem of free will is they act on their own accord when not watched. And evil doesn't cooperate well with others evil.
Morgoth couldn't create life. They were elves corrupted. Meaning the firstborn already were on scene.
@Rick Storm - Elves corrupted in the edited Silmarilion - that's just one theory - but Mirco was using "create" in place of "made" which would have been the correct word. Knew what he meant though.
@Mirco - The Orcs as being "Melkor's" as the Dwarves were Aule's is an idea I've liked for many years. I'd never considered your proposition about Eru actually gifting them free will - that's very interesting. Especially since you believe there would be some choice for Melkor to put them to sleep. We are told in The Silmarillion that the making of Orcs was basically the biggest blasphemy and evil of Melkor against Eru. I'd probably use that to argue any sort of permission between Eru and Melkor in the fate of Orcs. Giving them free will almost sounds like a slap in Melkor's face rather than a gift - which is interesting as well. Will have to think on this :D
@@TheRedBook
In my imagination is see the same scene happening both for Aulë and Melkor but their attitude is different and the consequences for their creations is different.
Aulë made the dwarves strong willed to resist Melkor and was uninterested in controlling them where Melkor made the Orc weak willed because he wanted to control all Arda.
Confronted by Eru Iluvatar both would have destroyed their creation:
Aulë because he overstepped his authority and place even if he loved his creations
Melkor because they were idle and he was enraged by his own failure.
Then Eru Iluvatar steps in and stops both of them, remarking they are actually alive because they are cowering in fear.
I would suggest Eru put them both to sleep, because he would not suffer them to be awakened before the elfs.
But instead of waiting for the Sun, Melkor awakens them immediately after the elves awaken, in the dark.
Eru made the elves able to withstand the light of the Trees and the Sun but the Orcs were not. Just the stars.
In fact, IIRC, orcs were not cited until after the War for the Sake of the Elfs.
We know Melkor was captured and brough to Valinor and Sauron remained in Angband.
I suggest Sauron would have supervised the breeding of Orcs from the beginning, making him the actual handler of the Orcs.
And this would explain why they were less affected by Melkor defeat.
@The Red Book I actually think it makes sense to view it as Eru's gracious gift to Melkor, though I doubt Melkor would necessarily appreciate it, Melkor desired to create life, and though he failed to do so, they are his by Eru's designation and will, I imagine that Eru desires to create in Melkor repentance, by giving him a people as his own, so that, perhaps, possibly a sense of affection could begin to grow within him, and as such, gratitude towards the One that gave them.
This is a profound understanding and review of the Orcs in Tolkien's legendarium. Morgoth manipulated Eru's creation in the evilest of ways. Any subordinate of Morgoth, no matter how powerful, would not have the intellect nor the will to control, in the manner of Morgoth, the orcs as well as any other evil entities. Tolkien's legendarium was what some call "true myth". Even though we know it was never allegorical... Tolkien's devout Catholic faith influenced his understanding of good and evil. I love your take on free will and also intellect and will. Thomas Aquinas' Summa Theologica, Prima Pars, #50 through #65 gives great detail on the will and intellect of angels and demons (the Valar, the Maiar, Melkor, and his evil subjugated). Thanks for the great insights you have regarding the greatest of all myths.
A quality video as always. It has become the norm for this channel to post one banger after another. Way more deserving than 146 likes
Thanks Joe, nice to see people from way back when I had about 3 videos still leaving comments :D
Tolkien listed three or four different origins for the Orcs in the Silmarillion, and he didn't seem content with any of them in the end. As for what happened to them? Since we are told that even the Dwarves eventually dwindled and died out, I'd guess that eventually the last orcs would die out too with some orc-blood lingering in certain human family lines that had cross bred.
I imagine that the Orcs and Goblins would have retreated to their various underground territories - Goblin town, Gundabad, various other ruins in Mordor, and maybe some to Moria, or other abandoned dwarven mines. However, I would imagine that many of their leaders would have died either at the battle of Pelennor field or at the Black Gates. After that they would have dwindled without the leadership or courage to come forth and attack the lands of men.
In the cartoon version of LOTR, when Sam was tempted by the ring, he imagined himself using the ring to turn the orcs into animals, who then fled into the wilds. I can't help but imagine that actually happening, the orcs turning into animals without a supernatural master to keep them sapient. Probably not very canonical, but a lot nicer than most options presented so far.
You have nice voice to read stories, i feel relaxed at night to sleep hearing this.
Nice Vid Bro, Greetings from Edinburgh
Excellent work Mellon! KEEP IT UP. "ELENDIL! ELENDIL! FOR THE WEST!" I'm reading the Field of Cormallen currently....for the 80th time. Never wanes, never gets old..kind of like Lady Galadriel
No simping!
Great video as always. Your channel is a beacon of good content from Tolkien's mythology amid so many channels that have degenerated in the face of this bad Amazon fanfic. Keep up the good work.
Thank you for the comment but did you watch it at 12x speed? 😅 it's only been up 2 minutes!
And yes, I made a post about how this channel will handle Amazon videos. It basically won't :D ...
@@TheRedBook I had seen the topics in the video. I just finished it now and confirmed the nature of its purely Tolkienian content.
@@TheRedBook Thank God and Thank you!
I love thinking of orc mercenaries appearing individually among the cities of the easterlings as a rare sight once in a while, but highly prized. Something like Boba Fett in Star Wars.
That's a cool idea.
Not sure I'd agree they'd be highly prized though - orcs relied on numbers, not skill. They weren't particularly good warriors on their own.
“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life. -(John 3:16)
@@samuelferrell9257🐘
@@DS-lq3dr⛄️
Another very fine character study, Sir. Intelligently written and beautifully delivered. Congratulations again
It seems to me that at least some Ocs survived the first couple centuries of the Fourth Age. Tolkien's abandoned sequel suggests the lingering of some dark power that would have necessitated the use of a force capable of disrupting the peace and prosperity of Middle Earth, and what better fodder than surviving Orcs looking for some purpose to give their lives meaning again? Sauron was not the only remaining ancient evil in the world, after all-the Watcher in the Water and Shelob are proof of that. We also do not know exactly how many Balrogs survived besides Durin's Bane. If one could dwell in Moria virtually undetected so long after the banishment of Morgoth to the Outer Void, it stands to reason there might be others. A Balrog wouldn't be as powerful or as intelligent as Sauron, or as capable of uniting all the evil of Middle Earth to its cause, but perhaps it might have just enough cunning and charisma, such as it is, to sway whatever living Orcs are still around in the early Fourth Age to action.
Now as to the possibility for redemption with regards to Orcs, I say it is at the very least possible, if not very likely. Interbreeding over generations with wicked Men may dilute the bloodlines, but that they are capable of it at all suggests some relationship yet remaining between the two races, especially if those whom Morgoth turned were hybrids of Elves and Men and therefore could be said to the twisted descendants of such experimentation by the Dark Lord. As such, regardless of their level of intellect, it would necessarily mean that Orcs do in fact have spirits or souls, but because of their corruption are bound to a different path in the Afterlife than that originally meant for their human ancestors. Perhaps just as there may be among modern good folk a little bit of Hobbit, in evil Men there may be a bit of Orc.
I see Aragorn and Gondor wiping them out from the Mountains of Mordor. Then him helping the Sons of Elrond clearing them from the Misty Mountains and Mirkwood. But it may be Aragorn's heirs or someone else to drive them from the Grey Mountains. Oh yeah, the video reminded me that the Dwarves would get rid of the orcs of Moria.
Tolkien's sequel specifically had no lingering supernatural evil, only Men who felt retroactively drawn to that irretrievably bygone power and sought with futility to revive its effects by aping its forms. Think like a cargo cult.
Only just found your channel, two minutes in and I had to pause and comment, instant subscribe, instant follow.!
Looks like some well prepared, well thought out content on the way!
Aaaaaah, another chunky vid for a cozy Monday evening! Very much appreciated
Enjoy!
This is some serious, gourmet Tolkien analysis. Hey TH-cam, check out how much engagement this channel gets, you should totally promote it.
I'm a simple man. I see a video from The Red Book, I stop what I'm doing, click the thumbs up, and watch.
Almost as simple as me replying to all nice comments with a heart 😂 cheers!
Love the vibe of your videos, my man. Keep up the stuff
Incredible video as always.
I always found interesting the dichotomy between being created to serve dark lords, yet they only want to loot and raid without big bosses. That and how they survived after the defeat of Morgoth but not after Sauron's, as thousands years passed before he started to spoil ME again.
Do we have any comparison between the Uruks and Uruk-Hai in terms of battle capacity?
Orcs are not stupid, they are simply weak-willed. Weak willed in the sense that they can easily be controlled by a greater power like Sauron or even Saruman, but they are also weak willed in the sense that they are extremely vulnerable to temptation, which probably makes redemption extra difficult. Orcs are aware of their situation and they would rather act for their own benefit than that of some dark lord. Being weak of will means they are selfish, lazy, cruel to the weak and fawning to the strong and always up to mischief of some sort. There might be some exceptionally bright orcs who have enough wisdom and at least enough positive traits to understand kindness and mercy given to them, but they might be far and few between since these traits would single them out and make them targets. I think that even if you can redeem orcs, most would still be easy prey to temptation or fall back on negative traits in times of stress. Maybe if given enough time and the right conditions some orcs might find some kind of peaceful life far from things that might cause them to regress.
I guess they are best thought of as Chaotic Evil that can be pressed into service as an army of sorts but are really a pretty slipshod one
Brilliant atmosphere and narration. Wasn't there at least one heroic if not good Orc? From the Lay of Leithian:
Boldog he sent, and Boldog was slain
How came ye not in Boldog's train?
"Baldaeg" was the Anglo-Saxon name for Balder (the Beautiful).
My take is, Tolkien "differentiated" his material. As a Scot you might know the story of True Thomas, Thomas the Rhymer. There is a lot about this in Robert Chambers' "Popular Rhymes of Scotland" which we know Tolkien consulted. I won't drag this out with detail, but in Chambers' account of Thomas can be found Lorien, Cerin Amroth, Dol Guldur, Radagast, Rhosgobel, the Elessar, Arwen's fate and more. But (to Tolkien) it was a muddle of Good and Bad which he needed to separate out.
Btw great effects you added over your backdrops. I liked the rain and lightning as one example. Great job man!
They are very suttle, that the blend well. But that's what makes them great as well.
Thanks! A lot of channels cover Tolkien stuff so I always want to make the videos stand out visually as well as the content I'm speaking about. Happy to hear they are subtle too!
@@TheRedBook love how your spelling correction was subtle as well! 🤣.... well done, but I will call myself out. Funny thing is my keyboard tried to assist me and I ignored, lol.
Just listened to you on in deep geeks livestream and subscribed here. Great stuff, cant wait to go back and listen to all your lotr content.
Thanks, Nikolai. Was a lot of fun - happy to see folks from IDG trying out my content too!
Personally I think Eldarion enslaved their remnants and they later became both a food ingredient and staff personal at McDonald's and the house of parliament... but probably I will be smarter after watching this video! Have a lovely week, Steven : )
Orcs snatched from cradles to be served as "Chicken" McNuggets? I'll make a video about that!
@@TheRedBook It keeps the Earth marred! Morgoth is in almost anything, but he has to be concentrated in happy meals!
Orcs of the workforce, unite! We are the soylent majority!
Soylent green is orcs!
@@Crafty_Spiritlol that's so right
I always imagined that the cult of morgoth or sauron would survive amongst the orcs. That someday a great leader would unite the orcs and they would develop firearms or some other kind of technology and they would become a major menace to the West and to the East.
I think more on line of bomb vests and IEDs
They did its called warhammer 40k
Another great video. I have enjoyed and respected every episode that you have put out. I hope your channel continues to grow for many years to come
Great analysis as ever. I think Tolkien imagined that some of the mythical creatures, like elves, dwarves, hobbits, trolls, etc, might still be found, though only in extreme cases. The idea of the connection between England and elves comes to mind. But also that these other races would live on within human populations as character traits. A human with good traits could have some elf blood in their veins, and a person with bad traits could have some orc blood. I know these ideas are somewhat rasist, but still I think they are quite clear trends in Tolkien's work.
I think it's an interesting thought, I wouldn't say it was racist at all -- but I'm sure plenty of others would disagree (as always). Maybe better to say that some humans behaving poorly would have their actions considered Orcish, rather than a running trait through their blood?
@@TheRedBook : That's a better take on it. It's still a division of races though to consider poor behavior as "Orcish" when there are so many clear examples of Humans, Dwarves, and even Elves committing atrocities themselves. We got to see through Gollums story in particular that at least the possibility for redemption exists in what is otherwise considered an "evil" being. I think that passage after Sauron was defeated expressed the idea quite well that they had been so brainwashed for so long that many of them even committed suicide en masse. Another sad part of a long tale spanning multiple ages.
Like many other great authors, Tolkiens genius in no small part came from owning compassion as a quality above all others.
I have been reflecting a lot lately on the brainwashing going on in our own world, and how the internet has made it so much easier to brainwash people with disinformation, even though it's also made it easier to find more truths and evolve beyond the propaganda of all of the various governments, who in the end are all vying for power because so much bigotry still divides The People. I think it's super important for people everywhere from any so-called "side" to remember two things: 1) we were all innocent babies in the beginning, and 2) that no one ever asks to be brainwashed.
Thanks for the video too! I really enjoy these and find your own insights on Tolkiens great works very interesting. ^-^
@Anders Gustafsson : _"I think Tolkien imagined that some of the mythical creatures, like elves, dwarves, hobbits, trolls, etc"_ I wouldn't doubt it. And it's something I've often imagined myself. Another thing I've more often thought of though, is that Middle Earth exists in an alternate, parallel, or other type of dimension. Or maybe that is just part of my desire to escape our world where things seem even more convoluted and too _close to home_ as they say.
@@TheRedBook Tolkien certainly was not racist. Very opposite, he was antiracist both in war times and at times of peace. His sons had fought against a racist dictatorship.
We should however consider the fact that Tolkien lived in time when social darwinistic attitudes and in general racist pseudoscience still had some influence as accepted science of the time. Which was by some used to justify social hierarchy in society. Aristocrats and nobles having more ideal race attributes than lower class commoners, or criminals. Unfortunately even most emphatic and educated people of the time would have been fooled.
Tolkien, even if very empathic and reasonable person, most likely was influenced by this. He potrays descendents or Eärendil being nobles with elvish and divine maiar blood in their veins, and through the union of Aragorn and Arwen, this lineage was strenghtened. At the other end of spectrum, we are given descriptions of wicked half orc men, who have infiltrated streets of Bree.
@@saunajaakko699 I never said he was :). I've never considered him to be racist.
A study found that mice that drank diet soda (aspartame) produced offspring that had anxiety. So in a way, food, drink and medication could change animals and people into something other than thier normal state.
Finished bingeing all your videos and looking forward to more! Thanks for all the great work! 😃
Thanks for taking the time to watch :D
That ants analogy was spot on. Sauron’s spirit was to dark creatures what Eru is to every other creature. It makes sense given the discord Eru. Melkor and Sauron bastardized whatever they could. Even their own ultimate destruction is a testament to that. Eru created them, and in turn they wanted to mock, corrupt, and destroy whatever Eru or his other children created. Although unforeseen on their end, the damage Melkor and Sauron do to themselves fits with their nature.
Another amazing video as always.
I have a suggestion: was Amandil's voyage successful in some way? What could have happened to him?
Two potential endings I've subscribed to.
1. They "dwindle" as the elves who did not go West after Sauron was defeated.
2. The entire mythos being a prehistoric forgotten civilization trope, the "Men" are modern men and the Orcs are Neanderthals. Which holds up under the science of the time, where Neanderthals were considered more brutish (not going to get into why that is wrong) and adding in later discoveries where, particularly in Europe, Neanderthals "died out", in part by breeding with modern humans. Similarly, other parts of our world have equivalent "early men" who disappeared. Yes, ethnic cleansing probably killed it's own share.
Do you think orcs ever engaged in "respectable" commerce ever? Is there a reference to it anywhere? I imagine with all that raiding and looting, theyd eventually want to spend their ill gotten gains somewhere. Plus it seems impossible for them to have lasted so long being 100% hostile to all sentient beings all the time always.I always found it strange that with all the emphasis on pity, we're never invited to pity the orcs. Yet they seem less culpable for their actions than Gollum. This obviously bothered Tolkien too lol. Ive never seen him strain so hard as when trying ro solve the "orc problem."
I can imagine the Orcs of Mordor trading with the few remaining Black Numenoreans, or the Corsairs of Umbar. Possibly even with the Men of Harad.
Interesting question. There's no mention of it from any text I've read.Maybe raiding and looting for food, weaponry, supplies? I'd have to assume that the building of their smaller bands would be more than a group hiding in a dark cave. Tolkien mentions "Strongholds" - they would be somewhat organised, able to build, even if it was crude.
I think my next video on Orcs (whenever that comes) will be about pity for them. But it will again highlight that despite the message being that we should sympathise with such evil figures - even some noble figures in the Legendarium can't help but loathe them. It will always be the "Orc problem".
Yes. "[Goblins] did not hate dwarves especially, no more than they hated everybody and everything, and particularly the orderly and prosperous; in some parts wicked dwarves had even made alliances with them." - The Hobbit, chapter 5: Over Hill and Under Hill. So if they were making alliances with dwarves it seems to me likely they would also trade with them.
I've always read Gandalf's statement "And for me, I pity even his slaves" as including the Orcs.
@@TheRedBook Like Azog?
And the orcs of the North?
Maybe Azog was from Morgoths army
@@TheRedBook please don’t take offense to this comment, but when I hear of the “orc problem” my mind instantly goes to the “Jewish” problem and the Holocaust. Not that Jews and orca have anything in common, but the mindset of the free peoples of middle earth when compared to the German general population, and the German high command and government of the 1930’s and 40’s.
Support my project on Patreon : th-cam.com/users/stevengibb
Loved the video and wanted this question answered for years.
Orcs are always interesting to discuss. Did the video help or leave you with more questions? :D
@@TheRedBook Both
Just what I like :D more questions!
@@TheRedBook Personally I thought the orcs and trolls wandered around after the fall of Sauron. They probably worked with the surving captains after the grand crash. Surving in East and South from Baurudur. Maybe tales of battles of Orcs and trolls fghting Men of the West in the east? What happened to the eastern Orcs of the second age? Didn't they stop serving Sauron after he went to Nummenour?
I certainly believe you have a better understanding of Aragorn than George Martin does. Love your speculations and your honesty for when things aren’t very black and white. The orcs are a very interesting race.
The things that aren't black and white are always the most interesting - plus, I'm someone who thinks that if there isn't an answer then it's perfectly fine to admit it. I'd hate to see my thoughts on Orcs in the Fourth Age are "fact" but I think I make that clear too :)
Dammit another Tolkien lore channel? Ok then I'll add it to the list of subs I guess, this is only like number 10. Pretty original style though honestly, I'm sure it's worth it.
Don't let me force you ;) . I'm sure there's 1 or 2 that could be dropped! 😅
I’m somewhere between sorrow, horror and pity. This is one of those areas where because Tolkien chose to write his work….in a different way there are horrible consequences for what should be considered “living creatures” and he and I live in a world where “All life is equally sacred and valuable” is a pillar of our existence. We cannot amend that truth and while I don’t believe he breaks it here for fiction sake, I know the principles the seeds that would give rise to “The Tale of The Orcs” I am convinced I understand what tree the fruit is from although I’ve heard what’s been said and I won’t fight or argue with anyone on this issue. Ol’ J gave his blessing? Fine, have at it. Me? All I can say is this tale no matter how hard anyone tries if you have the full story in mind it’s more of a Lamentation a true tragedy and these creatures are to be the most pitied in in the entire story and the idea of warfare or genocide once darkness has no hold on them is cruel…so painfully cruel it is horrifying.
Elves: a creation, fall, restoration
Men: a creation, fall, restoration
Dwarves: WERE NOT supposed to exist are ADOPTED into the fabric of reality and fade in peace
Orcs: creation? No. Corruption, fall? No. They were corrupt from their Genesis and the corruption was passed on. Adoption? No. There is no sign that happened other than they didn’t all die when the kingdom of darkness they were enslaved in was finally crushed. The End.
Hopelessness for living creatures for the rest of their days to be outsiders forever and J (I’m not angry or upset just shocked) put no means of remedy to their problem. The Orcs need Salvation. Only The One can do it. It was said as much correctly and I’m aghast. I have heard the line I know what people say about My world, Tolkiens world and Arda. I am not here too do anything other than enjoy but this video makes me shudder at the end. It’s the nightmare we who walk by faith firmly renounce.
My comfort is that because this is a work of fiction and not I don’t know an allegory such an atrocity is fine and I even think it’s better to shine no lights on the matter. The story is finished, no hope for a whole race of living creatures to ever have peace in life or in death. The End. I’m glad it’s just limited to this, and he explained himself and it makes sense. Oh and he didn’t go down the Narnia route because of all that I can still travel through Arda in peace 😆poor Orcs though.
EDIT: Major edit! And I’m not just deleting the comment or adding a separate comment. I’ve considered both and am choosing to do this.
Because I’ve heard the full statement of Tolkien from a later video in this playlist 😎😉 I will leave a like and I also thought about it some more I hear what he is saying. I think in death there’s a hope for restoration, although Mr. Martin’s assumption of genocide is….vexing. Very vexing.
So Ol’J did see the problem well and true, that’s good. Still spiritually gruesome but fine it’s a myth it’s ok. My feathers are a little less ruffled, my Fire much more lively and bright! Still sad for poor Orcs…no I am not going to start a movement lmao I’ve got enough work to do in this world! 🤣🤣
I do not believe Aragorn would ever have had to trouble himself with Orcs after Sauron’s dissolution. Orcs were always wholly subservient to the dark powers that made them. They were capable of rebellion when there was opportunity to elevate their station, and in fact always seemed to look for opportunities for just that, at the expense of their fellow Orcs. No, when Sauron was defeated the only thing keeping Orcs loathing, hatred and bloodlust in check (his yoke on them) was removed. I do not imagine Orc armies stayed together; they would have slaughtered eachother. Not all at once, not in a concerted effort as grand as a civil war, but as opportunities presented themselves. Alone and in small groups, but groups without loyalty, without established chains of command or even a supreme leader. Allies only of the moment, as necessity dictated, and then, enemies again because each Orc is ultimately now only for himself.
I do not imagine the Orcs were redeemable. Their corruption spans eons, and is complete, regardless of their origins. They can be no more saved than Ring Wraith, nor do they wish to be. They are completely evil, as their Master shaped them to be. Repentance is not possible for such as these… and if it were, even among a few, or one, his fellows would dispatch him in short order.
It is said of the dagor dagorath, that all races save elves fought on both sides. Although this idea was abandoned it may give some insight.
Not of the Dagor Dagorath. It's a quote about the Last Alliance "All living things were divided in that day, and some of every kind, even of beasts and birds, were found in either host, save the Elves only"
Food for thought
@@TheRedBook
Never thought of it before, but would that quote indicate that there were orcs fighting against Sauron's forces in that war?
@@andersgustafsson5533 - It's very debatable. Some do read it that way. I read it more as a comment that those you would assume were 'good' could be corrupted and served 'the other side' - so evil men and dwarves, mostly. Maybe a comment highlighting that the Elves would never be corrupted in that way? It would be remarkable if it was only this one comment in all the Legendarium speaking of Orcs fighting against Sauron - which is probably why I don't read it that way...
@@TheRedBook
I don't think so either. Orcs probably never fought in any war against Sauron together with men and elves, though there must have been plenty of conflicts between different kind of orcs with differing degrees of affiliation with Sauron, or between orcs and other servants of Sauron.
I imagine they all died out on their own. The way Tolkien wrote their reaction to Sauron's death makes me think of nihilism. If the Orcs succumbed to nihilism then they would all die sooner or later, either by suicide or psychological death (losing the will to live so the body shuts down).
I know!!! I think often that I’m the only one who thinks this type of stuff. But I’m not crafty enough to make a channel. You’re Killer dude. And it’s refreshing to here your channel. And your opinions. 🤙 makes sense to me.
Thank you! Happy you are enjoying this type of content!
An excellent video once again. I think orcs do deserve some degree of sympathy. They are the products of evil and are violent by nature. Their demise was garuanteed by their maker. Their Redemption only found with Eru Illuvitar.
It was about 10 minutes longer when I wrote it because I went through a whole part about if we should sympathise with them. I ended up taking it out because I think that would make a good video on its own.
@@TheRedBook I would watch the hell out of that video.
@@TheRedBook Only if their inherently evil/chaotic nature can be cured. Otherwise you are simply inviting the barbarians to pillage your kingdom, like the Celts did to Rome that one time when Rome was just a small city-state.
Excellent video. I feel the same way. Your analysis matches my own understanding. I loved it.
That's good to know :D it can get a bit wild and complicated trying to explain Orcs!
@@TheRedBook Tolkiens world is vast, is it not?
@@S3thousand Just a bit! ;)
GRR Martin's hostility toward the idea of Elessar should be enough to cause disregard of Martin in all things Tolkien.
Beyond that, an outstanding commentary on Orcs in the Fourth Age
Not to mention his hot take about Gandalf's return. I don't think he gets anything Tolkien at all.
As if he even has the right! He's a second date shut writer who thought he. Kyle compete with Tolkien. Utter trash. Maybe I'm being harsh, but how dare he!?
Smut* writer. My bad.
You fundamentally misunderstand both Tolkien and Martin. Tolkien wouldn’t disagree with Martin when Martin says that Ellesar lacks dimensions to make him relateable. Tolkiens heroes were written like heroes from Epic Poems. No one seriously questions whether Beowulf is a fully fleshed character; he’s not….he simply exists as a heroic figure and his politics, details of personal relationships with his mean, and his internal struggles are simply absent. This was intentional on Tolkiens part; and adding the dirty details of human life to Martin’s characters was intentional so that people can relate to Tyrion or Rob Stark in ways they never could Aragorn. That you see Martin’s observations on Tolkien as hostility says more about you then it does Martin who clearly doesn’t demonstrate hostility, and has only spoken on the matter when asked.
@@anglerfish4161 Its not a hot take, its a valid literary opinion. For someone who hated allegory, Gandalfs resurrection is a little too on the nose (Jesus). This is a valid and arguable opinion, and doesn’t detract from Tolkien’s work.
Great video, looking forward to what comes next, I would look forward to see what happened to the other forces of darkness after the start of the 4th age.
I think talk of what happened to Wicked Men would be rather interesting. Would probably tie into my thoughts on The New Shadow - plenty of room for speculation there.
@@TheRedBook That would make sense, regarding the new shadow do you think it should have been completed or was it best to be left alone?
@@JRYYD - I have a video where I talk about just that. There's a link to it in the description of this video :) .
really cool video enjoyed
Much respect... few give these races that view... The fact that they would have wanted more or could have became something... but evil begets evil... even if men do not realize it... They too are blinded by hate. Thank you for this video
It seems Orcs would die out quickly as without Bosses they have no ability to make things, grow things, etc. As you state, they would have lost purpose and drive - they would have no idea how to survive other than emerging on some raid only to be wiped out soon after. They would have lost all organization and we know they are too eager to fight amongst themselves.
My opinion relates them as a dark mirror of the Numenoreans. I see orcs as primarily a base of Men (with Uruk-Hai being somewhat less corrupted) who have dark "gifts" from Morgoth and to an extent Sauron that explain their appearance and habits. As the 4th and later ages go, I see a slow withdrawal of these gifts so that each generation is more like Men and less corrupted until they merge fully into the race of men as a strengthening element in the darker aspects of human nature.
Very thoughtful exploration of a topic we know little about. Glad you disagreed with GRRM. 😂
I had to add the subtle 'unfinished' dig as well 😂 .
wonder how many times GRR Martin has read LOTR. If I hadnt reread it as an adult I think I might say stupid things about it too. I went through a phase, after my initial teenage fandom,of thinking the Lord of the Rings was too simplistic for my elevated tastes. Of course in actual fact, I was the one too simplistic for Tolkien. I wonder if GRRM never reread it and never grew out of that phase.
Martin would do well to be quiet about Tolkiens works, as his will never measure up.
If elves are immortal, and orcs are corrupted elves: Does that mean ORC are also immortal, or do they only live a certain amount of time like men?
You may like my video on that subject - th-cam.com/video/g-CDanQALn8/w-d-xo.html
I've always imagined that yes, yes they are.
The other pertinent question: What about half-orcs? Do they choose between mortality and immortality like the half-elves?
The red book and Darth Gandalf are two of my favourite lotr lore channels
Thanks :D
I've never watched any videos from that channel but I don't watch much Tolkien content on TH-cam. I'll be sure to check that out though since you mentioned the channel by name!
@@TheRedBook yours and his channels are my go to for Tolkien lore on TH-cam, you both have different styles of content presentation but both great quality on touching on unanswered scenarios on a range of different topics on the legendarium
This is a good one that I just found today, but I can't even say now how many subs I have for this specific content by now. I probably have as many for Star Trek, Star Wars, Lovecraft, Warhammer, Halo, comics, movie and horror channels. Yes I got my official nerd card coming in the mail. 🤓
I'd love to read a short story about Orc redemption!
Would you make one great video about Tolkien theogony, particularly about Eru Ilúvatar.
Thank You for your great MAGNUM OPUS, creating this kinds of video.
I always like to imagine few orcs were spared by Aragon and allowed to live in peace in some small green mountainous valley and over the years they became peaceful, isolated and known only to a few but a people that keep to themselves.
Maybe that's just because an end of a people, any people doesn't sit well with me 😅
Yeah genocide is quite the heavy topic. I also like to believe Aragon didn't commit genocide.
If the orcs couldn't overcome the curses of Morgoth, they would probably never be found and would breed just enough to not disapear, waiting for a new dark lord to have control on them. if there would be a new dark lord, they would start to repopulate middle earth, which would be similar to a zombie apoclaypse.
Excellent as always thank you!
I gave a like before I watched this.😁
Funny if you commented after and said "I removed the like after watching this" 😅
@@TheRedBook
Impossible! Your videos are guaranteed 👍s. I'd click the ♥️ if they had one.
Here's a question. Do Orcs even pass out of Arda after death? It is said that Men have a fate beyond death outside of Arda with Illuvitar, but that Elves are eternally of the world, and pass simply to the Houses of the Dead, from which they can even return at times. So what then becomes of an Orc when it dies?
This video taught me that such are the tragedy of the orcs. Irredeemable race out of hatred and violence. Their harsh existence poured out of vain slewing themselves away from human encounter.
Boss again mate. I think you'd give Tolkien a run for his money on his own lore.
Imagine being Tolkien and being able to watch videos like this and say...."This guy is completely wrong" :D
@@TheRedBook perhaps sometimes he'd even have thought "damn, why didn't I think of that!"
Thank you the subtitles !
On this topic, I have throughts aplenty. So much so, in fact, that this may not come out in a highly organized fashion.
It was always my impression that the orcs were meant as much to show the bigger, badder origins of "goblins" in thesame way that Tolkien's elves were meant to show the greater truth behind "Faeries" and the like. Which is to say, that they might only be "gone" in the same way that the elves, hobbits, and so on are: we simply can't find or see them anymore, and they may be much diminished. If they are still here, perhaops some have found a sort of redemption as the kinder "hobgoblins" found in old folklore. On the other hand, Tolkien's pretty unambiguous statment that Men would finish off the last orcs, torlls, dragons, and so on paints a different picture.
That Orc-blooded humans are still with us is not hard to believe; in fact, it honestly explains quite a few people out there! But then, another possibility occurs to me, which potentially contradicts both all of the above: that Orcs are indeed redeemable, and may well be trying . . . and they are with us in spirit for that very reason. For if Elves (as the Orcs originally were) could be reincarnated, perhaps Orcs could, too. Perhaps their spirits have returned to us in the form of untold numbers of human souls, trying to find redemption by doing it all over again . . . with naturally mixed results. THAT could explain a lot about people, too.
I can see communities rising like in Skyrim - orc clans existing with men, elves, and dwarves.
Men and dwarves would make a killing in the meat market - selling cows and other cattle.
While the orcs could make a killing as undertakers
What about the goblins in goblin town? There was a shit ton of em. And based on how they talked, they didn't 'seem' to be under any mind influence. If they were, then why didn't they show up to the black gates?
What about the nameless things that Gandolph refers to that have no alliance or are subject to any power? Elrond mentions these things that are haters of all things that go on two legs.
To me Orcs are the easy equation.....they don't live very long, not even an average age that a human does.
And what about the trolls? It doesn't say that all trolls were at the final battle?
Did Moria completely empty at the final battle??????? "There are older and fouler things than orcs in the deep places of the world."
These are the questions that this viewer has, and I would appreciate anyone that can shed light on them? Love ur vids!
Did you just say "Gandolph"?
@@Advancedgod ???
Great video on this topic. My feeling was always that they would dwindle as one by one were picked off. Hindi g in the deep places and living sad lives. Thanks for this
My theory of what happens to the orcs? They flee their destruction, deep into the earth, and come upon the nameless things, and in their desperate flight, worship or serve the nameless things. Becoming even more corrupted and twisted beyond any resemblance of humanoid creatures.
I have always been under the assumption, since orcs were corrupted elves, and elves are reborn after death, instead of given an after life, Orcs are the reborn souls of elves. This would also mean there is a finite number of souls for both orcs and elves. With orcs breeding faster, the orcs are replacing the elves which is why there are far fewer elves in the 3rd and 4th age while orcs are thriving. Regardless, Morgoth corrupted the orcs to be everything the elves were not. Orcs hate all things that make the elves who they are. That includes nature, art, love and compassion. This is why they so readily followed Sauron, as he was opposed to everything the Arda created, and loved.
They went to work for Amazon for Rings of Power.
There was about 500 years as I recall between Morgoth being cast into the Void and Sauron starting to rise as the new Dark Lord in Middle-Earth so orcs were able at least to keep a viable population that long. While I don't for a moment think Aragorn would have committed genocide against the orcs, I do believe he and his allies would have mounted campaigns to destroy any groups of orcs that would be a danger to the peace and safety in the lands of the Free Peoples. Some of these groups could be quite large as there were many orcs living in places like the Misty Mountains that would likely survived the War of the Ring. Even if expeditions were not sent into Moria to attack the orcs there, I think Aragorn and his allies would have built bases near to each entrance into Moria to prevent groups of orcs from coming out of Moria to attack the Free Peoples settlements nearby. I also think that without Sauron to keep them in line, men like the Haradrim and the Easterlings would have ended up fighting the orcs in their lands. Add to that the orcs own tendencies towards internecine warfare and I would guesstimate they all gone within a 1000 years.
I agree that I don't think the orcs were redeemable within the circles of Arda. Perhaps the earliest generations of orcs might have had some individuals who would have responded to a more nurturing and less aggressive environment, especially if they had been taken from orc tribes when very young, but after all these thousands of years of brutality and aggression being ingrained into them, it would have become part of their nature.
Yea your thoughts are true and realistic in my opinion.
What about Gorbag and Shagrat discussing “setting up on their own with a few sturdy lads” after the end of the war? Independence was still in the minds of morgul and Cirith Ungal orcs prior to the fall of the tower.
I picture a similar scenario in which the surviving orcs of the fourth age, many of whom may not have been directly involved in Sauron's final battle against Aragorn's forces, are rounded up and culled over the decades, and - like the 'misunderstood' monsters of I Am Legend - come to view *themselves* as the persecuted, developing a sort of ethnic grievance against the triumphant race of man. now, if someone were to come along and harness that grievance...
..and so they travelled to Azeroth and spread into Faerun and Dominaria and many other worlds...
I think that would be 1 last thing the elves and wizards would be asked to do before leaving to the undying lands is to find and either slay or better purify the orcs of every last ounce of evil!!!!
Brilliant analysis
Between Morgoth's fall and Sauron's rise the Orcs probably DID decline, divide and die off, just not enough to go extinct. With no one replacing Sauron however, the trajectory lasted longer than that previous between period, in fact, it never ended so the Orcs are gone, had Sauron's rise been delayed long enough, they would have probably done so as well, but keep in mind that Sauron's ability to give Orcs drive, might still have existed in a very tiny form between his rise and his master's fall. Post-Sauron, there isn't even an iota of power driving them.
Very interesting. However, wasn't Morgoth prophesised (through the Song of Arda) to break out of his imprisonment/re-enter Arda? [Perhaps I mis-remember the Song?]. If so, do Orcs survive until then or does Morgoth create a new tool to work his will through?
Could a Valar take control of some orcs out of pity and attempt to change them?
I cannot see Aragorn committing genocide. Combating until nearly all are dead, yes, but actively hunting down every last one, even the few who never fought? no.
Dang, you're now my favorite LOTR channel, there are a few other good ones, but they really don't hold a candle your craftsmanship. I am very pleased how you reverence the Lore, especially in a chaotic/PC agenda driven time like now, and don't think that the subtle little touches you put in don't get noticed, they do(Well composed backdrops of artwork, glimmers of light as the text hits the screen, moody soundtrack and rain...Nice!... Looking forward to the next one!
It’s for more advanced people in the lore. Nothing against the other channels, but it’s like “oh yeah” with most of their content. Has its place and I do enjoy them, but yeah.