As an Englishman, I find it odd how people think English ethnic identity and Norse ethnic identity are starkly different. Even genetically we are very closely related and if you put an Englishman, a Dane, a Dutchman, and a Scot together, you won't be able to tell the difference
A very wise take on the drawback of Perennialism. Im glad I found AGR today. Tom's reference to the experience of Oneness of Being as being exclusive to a minority elite as opposed to its popularization is absolutely right ! Just a counterpoint wrt Jung. He also cautioned against drug use for these experiences, essentially referencing Goethe's The Sorcerer's Apprentice. He said you are opening doors in your psyche thst you may never be able to close again.
Excellent interview with top notch sound, editing, and content...the setting was beautiful...thanks for sharing this contemplative discussion on very important topics...look forward to more.
It's funny 'cause those criticisms of Alan Wattsist orientalism are things I first heard from Alan Watts. An expression of his that stuck with me was that it's like taking medicine for someone else's disease.
Watts was a fascinating and beautiful individual, but, inadvertently, he co-created our modern notion of what "eastern spirituality" really is. It's not exactly what "easterners" themselves might believe. It has more to do with a curiously modern quest for the mystical, the hidden, life after death, reincarnation etc. In this technological age, so dominated by the scientific-materialist view of reality, we are at the same time drawn its the exact opposite, almost as if we acknowledge that something has been lost in the process, something related to what used to be called "our Soul." To this degree, Watts contributed in co-creating a "lullaby" version of spirituality, where "it's all good in the end" (you realise you were God all along and that nothing can ever harm you), and as any "lullaby philosophy," it is more fit to the spiritually decadent ages.
I’m not sure but think maybe Survive The Jive meant “Śivo bhūtvā Śivaṃ yajet,” meaning “having [first] become Śiva, then worship Śiva.” It’s a non-dualistic Śaiva phrase, meaning that it encourages the yogic elimination of perceptual dualism between individual consciousness and universal consciousness before engaging in the worship of universal consciousness in the seemingly external world. Theological dualism (here meaning worshiping an entity or entities regarded as primarily external to oneself, as in bhakti yoga) takes more of a lunar approach, whereas self-identification with universal consciousness involves more of a solar energy.
i'm subscribed to both you guys. fantastic video. i'm also going back to the mycenean and through greek and roman to northern european mythology to study the history of thought through ancient stories.
It's magic! You can also refer to an old episode of ours dedicaded on the sound of cicadas, th-cam.com/video/3p9LejJjHgw/w-d-xo.htmlsi=PgWjY0qkTSiQuzZi and compare the differences of how it used to be. Our wish has now come true :D
As I have discovered that many among my audience are pro-Axis regarding WW2, I would like to believe that this is mainly due to frustration with our current culture. I share this frustration, but there is simply no way that a thinking man would want the Nazis to have won. I don’t believe anyone who believes that! The fact that the Nazis were - as Leo Strauss once said - the most barbaric expression of something noble: the last stand against modernity, of which Heidegger, Strauss, Schmitt and others were the true and best.
@@AncientGreeceRevisited I guess the thing is that history never stands still, things would have been different today, for better and worse in different ways. Even though it was horrible at the time and the legacy would have been as well. History would have moved on in a similar, but not the same, way up until today. It's not that certain that all things would have been for the worse or for the better. War doesn't determine who's right, just about who's left. Humanity banished many ideas that we severely need today, behind a wall of propagandistic taboo made by that victory. We might have won and killed many things that we would have needed as tools. It's a tragedy in many a sense, but one part of it is that it “tied our hands”, or rather that it tied our minds, so to speak. Edit: This is of course true both ways, if it had gone differently, many great things of our history up until the present would have been unthinkable to us then. We need all tools we can get to arrive at the best possible arrangement, by the way humanity is constituted, we fight wars that tilt the scale so much as to deny us the full picture. A clash like that warped our very sense of what we can begin to allow ourselves to see.
@@sigvardbjorkman I can agree with all that. My response was criticizing the type of person that usually supports the German side. At least judging from the ones I’ve met. It’s more of a reaction to what is rather than a reflected view on the pros and cons of each side.
@@AncientGreeceRevisited if you meant the good side was the Greeks when they fought the Germans, i would agree as they were defending their nation, but the problem is your "good side" includes nations like the UK -which had no business in the war, and turned what would likely of been a brief small regional war into a brutal half decade world war. Your great victory was a Europe in ruins with 50 million dead, i wonder what you imagine a loss would look like? oh and a thinking man would prob understand a jewish zionist might be a tiny bit biased against Germany
One of my favorite historical ironies is that Germany lost the race for The Bomb in large part because so many Jewish scientists emigrated to the West because of the anti-Semitic policies in Germany.
Brilliant chat, to comment along the Alan Watts discussion also consider the influence of Aleister Crowley and his student Jack Parsons and their influence on both the hippies and the elites…
Fascinating conversation! And very timely for me personally, as I recently had in my explorations what I would label as some sort of possible mystical experience along the lines of what you are talking about with your psychedelic experimentation (or at least I feel like I did; and though it was probably only a few minutes in duration it was what I imagine a micro-dose cocktail of LSD and Ecstasy would be like, though I've never tried either one). And I was just about to recommend Erich Neumann... but then noticed in the comments of the podcast that you've already read it. ;) Thanks for introducing me to this guy; thoroughly enjoying his channel now. I've been dabbling in paganism and though I've been focused on a Greek-oriented version I find that I prefer some of the more "Northern" pagan channels by scholars like this one for beginner's guidance. :)
Mystical experiences can be had in many different ways. In fact, Alan Watts once said that as powerful and strange as the experience can be, in terms of its frequency of appearance, it’s “as common as measles.”
That was a fascinating discussion guys, thanks. I've never tried hallucinogens myself but I suspect that the experience would not give me any profound insight just because I'd seen reality in a different way, although I'm sure it'd be interesting. I was formerly a hardline atheistic materialist as well, and realised eventually that I had a huge "normalcy bias" towards my mundane everyday perception of reality (which I suspect is what most atheists are "stuck" in as well). These days I'm content to acknowledge that there are many things I'll never understand and that my existence in the universe is inherently absurd, whatever the "prime mover" happens to be. Since it seems to me that everyday reality is already absurd and ultimately acausal, I don't think hallucinogens would give me a new perspective on that. I'm not as learned as you guys though, perhaps I'm missing something obvious here and have reinvented the wheel, lol. I'm drawn to polytheism because the idea of a singular all-knowing, all-encompassing, all-powerful omniscient deity seems.. artificial somehow? The idea of a single God (and also Oneness) just seems irrelevant to me, it doesn't add anything new to my perception of reality. And I'm drawn to my ancestors' pagan belief systems (in as much as we can reconstruct them, unfortunately) because it served them well for tens of thousands of years - a single millenium of Christianity (if that) is merely a blip on that scale. They lived as a part of nature and I have an uncanny feeling that civilisation, drawing us away from nature, has led us towards these monotheistic and ultimately atheistic tendencies.
Lovely discussion. One question though. As far as I can gather, you guys mention it would not be wise to try to assimilate eastern culture as we westerners don't have the memetic 'dna' so to speak, to truly understand these cultural practices on a deep level. My question is though, doesn't that same concern apply with ancient pagan roots of ones own culture. Can we really dig up our ancient pagan ways of understanding more easily than current foreign ones? Perhaps even the way Christianity was 'experienced' centuries ago is already too far back in time for us to truly bring back to our consciousness. I was wondering what you guys' views are on this.
I believe the answer is “yes!” We CANNOT understand the pagan world exactly because we are modern and Christian. I think that’s where me and Tom differ, and I am open to the possibility that this refers to a personal rather than universal shortcoming.
@@AncientGreeceRevisited Interesting. I feel like I'm personally somewhere in the middle. You being someone who studies the ancient mind, I'd be interested in knowing how diving into that subject for a long time has 'stretched' your own personal view on life. I can't imagine it wouldn't have. Perhaps an idea for a video :).
@@wonderpeter5231 Well, the things that I have understood that “blew my mind” where the most obvious “right-in-your-face” things. The things that once you see, you cannot “in-see.” One such thing has been the corrupting influence of science. You have to look at Aristophanes’ “Clouds” to see it. Scientific materialism gives tremendous powers to those who adopt it, but at a terrible cost: the soul of their culture. There are many more things but like I said they end up being obvious in hindsight
Another of the 500. I was surprised that during the part on syncretism there was no mention of Hermes and Odin. If I remember correctly, Thomas did a video on Odin that went into that connection.
@@AncientGreeceRevisited I think it was Tacitus in his book Germania who first equated Odin with Mercury. Just for fun and to illustrate syncretism I made a chart of the days of the week in English (Germanic), French (Romantic), and Ancient Greek. For example, the English Wednesday is Wodin's Day in English, Mercury's Day in French, and Hermes' Day in Ancient Greek.
Christianity preserved the pagan (Latin pagus: regional, parochial) in its weekday/planet names: Tiu/Mars-day, Weden/Mercury-di... varying stories but with shared themes owing to a shared map above, same 'dark gods'/hormones in the blood below. With the setting of Christianity's Sun, in Twilight/Ragnarok they survived both the Medieval iconographers' and the Puritan iconoclast's Jive.
Regards to our God shaped hole. Yes, the enlightenment but I believe protestantism really screwed things up. I'm Irish, and all over Ireland you can see paganism in the stones of catholic churches, Sheela na gig's, in Britain you've got the greenman... Catholicism was excellent at preserving/recycling old knowledge whereas protestantism really smashes everything that isn't bible. It's a terrible shame, I mean look at Anglican churches, it was a waste of time, F all people are now old school protestants, Yea you've got the new American brand stuff, which are even more ignorant and iconiclastic. It's the same with wahabi Islam, completely radical and ignorant. Loved the chat boys, all the best to you and yours 🤘🏻
You can take this notion back even further, to Judaism itself. I did an episode on a book called "On Being Pagan" that delves into the unique character of Judaism, so conducive to modernity!
@@AncientGreeceRevisited yeah that's true actually, it's kind of at the heart of their culture to rebel against the old cultures and Islam and Christianity just carried the torch, gave it to all sorts right up to today Big reason why I turned away from "Judeo Christian" culture.
Maybe a weird question but can you tell me what clothes and hat Tom is wearing? I’m hoping to apply to an MA in Greece and wearing all white and a wide brim hat is EXACTLY what I want to wear lol Seriously I’m in Canada Greeces climate would be very different. I’m a Pagan too, this was a great video!
30:55 That's entirely the point! Why would we adopt all of the cultural baggage of these religions when we're not of that culture? We're searching for a truth beyond all of the mundane daily things. I live in the U.S. I appreciate American culture. I participate in and promote it. However I was raised as an Englishman, and I practiced a type of Zen Buddhism for years. Why would an Englishman living in the United States married to a Chinese lady adopt Japanese cultural norms and hang-ups just because I found truth in Zen?
There are elements of meditation - that necessarily lead one - beyond the culture - one has experienced - indeed beyond words and concepts - one has to be serious though. To transcend the world - for the profoundest inner experience - one has to work hard. It has its own felt explanation and worth - and is the mark of a realised one. One can still be - of a society - and yet living within - this finest inner culture (spiritual nature). Raja Yoga meditation (India) - has the sahaj samadhi - natural continual oneness - as a distinct possibility. One has left this over emphasis - on words, though. Fare thee well.
15:55 If I may interject. I'd describe that way of thinking as closer to Pantheism, not Perennialism. I'm both a Pantheist and a Perennialist, so I feel this distinction is important But I entirely agree with your point about how Pantheistic and Perennialist people too often disrespect or disregard the finer details of each tradition. Something I endeavour not to do P.S. I personally don't believe in the "I am god and you are god" meme. I feel that it's a bad oversimplification of what the Perennialist and Pantheistic idea is, and I totally agree with Tom that this meme is harmful when presented at such a low resolution
The "I am god and you are god" is an experience to be had, not a piece of information to be stored in one's brain. From the little that I've tasted of the divine, words fall short. At best, they can be conductive to an experience, which in turn will never be captured by the same words that led one there.
For those who are interested in an alternative, yet scientifically grounded metaphysics to materialism, I can highly recommend the work of contemporary philosopher Bernardo Kastrup.
His theories are interesting indeed. But they lack the fundamental element that we have identified, which is the acceptance of Forms (as in Plato's Ideas) as a category of existence.
The problem that Nietzsche identified isn't a lack of morality but that morality itself answers to, covers over, and so further enables an increasing lack of virtue, that is, attuned instinct and physiological quality so not principles/thoughts/morality.
Minor error: morality is principled behavior rather than principle. Still, morality is a cheap and unreliable imitation of virtue. Virtue cannot be learned. Training can refine what's there, but what's there shall keep getting worse so long as we trust training over breeding.
It’s a good analysis. But I think what’s missing is Nietzsche’s realization that science proper, and the scientific way of thinking is what creates the relativism we are living under. The argument would go as such: no moral system cannot “prove” itself. Ultimate, it’s based on a common understanding of “the Good,” which in turn is based on certain metaphysical assumptions that each culture holds sacred. If science “proves” that nothing is really sacred (apart from a metaphorical use of the term), then morality loses its grounding. Nietzsche’s argument was more of an observation than a proclamation. He never said “I killed God” but rather “God is dead.” As if saying “he was dead when I found Him.”
@@AncientGreeceRevisited That's all correct and well put, but it veils more than it reveals, since we were nearer the root of the problem before. The further out of touch our instincts become the more dependent we become on knowledge as a crutch so the more room there is for comparison and doubt. Morality itself-life guided by reason, this dependence on truth, (I suspect I'd go too far by saying, "Science," but...) God's own instruction-is what killed God. "Precisely this is godliness-that there are gods but no God." See, God wasn't godly enough, that is, God wasn't relativist enough, though he did, at least, adapt himself to a variety of peoples. In his wake, we're further from relativism than ever. We imagine we're all equally capable of living well in any land among any people, so we constantly uproot ourselves, compound the mismatch of instincts, so stamp out the embers of divinity.
Mysticism without psychedelics is possible. The knowledge is not transmittable by text, it's non verbal and has to be done in person. It's generally not shared openly because there are certain health risks if someone naïve got a hold of certain methods and thought it would be cool to try.
The strongest and most cunning have always won or ruled. They lost for a reason. We could even say it was divine intervention. The modern version of that movement still fails to dominate politics and major religious groups. A different flavor of traditionalist thought and conservatism is preferred Nat Soc ideology is as dead as monarchist rulership.
I'm sorry to say that the right side didn't win WW2, but I agree with Tom that this isn't the reason for the decline. It's just a part of it Of course I'm not saying the Axis weren't flawed, they were very flawed
While I can understand and respect you perspective on WW2 as a Greek, as an American of Anglo-German descent I can only see Britian and America's involvement in WW2 as a treacherous betrayal of our kin to the predations of Marxists.
Like you, I can understand and respect your perspective. I couldn't before. For a long time I would have considered you evil for thinking that. But I can now. Greeks have been the fools of modern history. When it comes to race, we have taken upon our shoulders all of the "white man's burden" of guild, for crimes real and imagined notwithstanding, while our true history is nothing but suffering. We have white skin and a black history, and get the short end of boths sticks.
This guy is BS. A non-indian or Indian love towards Hinduism makes no difference from the Dharmic perspective. Don't forget that many Roman Gods were African imports.
Nazism has tarnished the far right. You mention Eugenics or certain ideas and people assume you're some raging Nazi. I'm not a fan of politics but my philosophical ideas would be considered FR by many nowadays. We know the Greeks practiced various forms of Eugenics, the most extreme example being in Sparta. I'm not opposed to Eugenics at all. The Greeks were very much quality over quantity. Now eugenics could be done in a far more humane way.
A lot of rational, sane people would be considered FR today! That tells you something. PS You might not be a fan of politics but politics is surely a fan of you!
I've read heidegger (can't say I understood it all. Awful language) - my religion is not pragmatist at all. I follow the religion which is evidently true based on my experiences with the gods
Transform ancient wisdom into your daily guide. Share your input in our quick survey: forms.gle/xJjwPweL6UERVzWc8 Help us shape the future of AGR! 🙏
The birds chirp happily as you both discuss ancestral cultures. This was a great discussion. Thanks
As an Englishman, I find it odd how people think English ethnic identity and Norse ethnic identity are starkly different. Even genetically we are very closely related and if you put an Englishman, a Dane, a Dutchman, and a Scot together, you won't be able to tell the difference
Yes, but a minute’s conversation will leave you with little doubts about their profound differences :-)
A Faustian pursuit of knowledge. What a devastating statement.
I'm very pleased to be one of the 500 people interested in your content!
Α great channel to a great place. Dion at Olympus mountain is a great place too. All the best to European people from Greece /Hellas.
One of the 500 here. Great conversation between you two. Totally enjoyed this video. Thank you!😊
A very wise take on the drawback of Perennialism. Im glad I found AGR today. Tom's reference to the experience of Oneness of Being as being exclusive to a minority elite as opposed to its popularization is absolutely right ! Just a counterpoint wrt Jung. He also cautioned against drug use for these experiences, essentially referencing Goethe's The Sorcerer's Apprentice. He said you are opening doors in your psyche thst you may never be able to close again.
Excellent interview with top notch sound, editing, and content...the setting was beautiful...thanks for sharing this contemplative discussion on very important topics...look forward to more.
This sound quality goes to Adam, who is behind the scenes (actually, right in front)
It's funny 'cause those criticisms of Alan Wattsist orientalism are things I first heard from Alan Watts.
An expression of his that stuck with me was that it's like taking medicine for someone else's disease.
Watts was a fascinating and beautiful individual, but, inadvertently, he co-created our modern notion of what "eastern spirituality" really is. It's not exactly what "easterners" themselves might believe. It has more to do with a curiously modern quest for the mystical, the hidden, life after death, reincarnation etc. In this technological age, so dominated by the scientific-materialist view of reality, we are at the same time drawn its the exact opposite, almost as if we acknowledge that something has been lost in the process, something related to what used to be called "our Soul." To this degree, Watts contributed in co-creating a "lullaby" version of spirituality, where "it's all good in the end" (you realise you were God all along and that nothing can ever harm you), and as any "lullaby philosophy," it is more fit to the spiritually decadent ages.
Would love to have more of these conversations to listen too.
I’m not sure but think maybe Survive The Jive meant “Śivo bhūtvā Śivaṃ yajet,” meaning “having [first] become Śiva, then worship Śiva.” It’s a non-dualistic Śaiva phrase, meaning that it encourages the yogic elimination of perceptual dualism between individual consciousness and universal consciousness before engaging in the worship of universal consciousness in the seemingly external world. Theological dualism (here meaning worshiping an entity or entities regarded as primarily external to oneself, as in bhakti yoga) takes more of a lunar approach, whereas self-identification with universal consciousness involves more of a solar energy.
probably was that. Thanks
Glad to be one out of 500.
Definitely one of the 500. Lovely discussion! Can't wait to see more from both of you, and hopefully more with both of you as well!
This was such an exciting conversation. Great video!
Good talk, thank you to the both of you
Excellent discussion, fellows. Thank you, for posting this and including us all.
Glad to be in that 500, good to see you guys together!
Nice to see you two gentlemen discussing together and meeting in beautiful and ancient yet ever young Greece.
I enjoy both your channels very much.
Interesting. I have a fairly similar journey into paganism as Tom
The encounter of mythological proportions 🔱
Really enjoyed this discussion with Tom and the dreamy background. Thank you.
New to AGR. This conversation went in unexpected and worthy directions. Thanks to both of you!
Very interesting conversation. Loved it
Tom is great. Fantastic crossover.
Great talk guys! Brian C. Muraresku was just on Rogan and couples this conversation very well.
i'm subscribed to both you guys. fantastic video. i'm also going back to the mycenean and through greek and roman to northern european mythology to study the history of thought through ancient stories.
beautiful! great job
Great discussion!
Well, it has over 500 views and you just got a new sub here!
Thank you! 🙏
Wonderful collaboration. I'm definitely one of those five hundred 😂
Awsome
I love the story of the Bazooka! 😋 What a fantastic experience that must have been!
Hahaha! There is more. Oh, there is more..!
It's also pretty typical of a swami experience. They're able to manipulate easily led people into having "mystical experiences."
Sounds like a great thing @@MiaogisTeas
I'm part of the 500. Number 418 to give the thumbs up. Thank you both ❤
This was really good
I wonder how on earth can be the audio so clean with so much wind!
I wondered too. It’s because of AI
It's magic! You can also refer to an old episode of ours dedicaded on the sound of cicadas, th-cam.com/video/3p9LejJjHgw/w-d-xo.htmlsi=PgWjY0qkTSiQuzZi and compare the differences of how it used to be. Our wish has now come true :D
Great discussion. 🙏
I’m one of those 500 people!!! This is a treat
"the good side won"
"great victory"
oh boy what a take on the greatest tragedy for Europe in 2000 years
As I have discovered that many among my audience are pro-Axis regarding WW2, I would like to believe that this is mainly due to frustration with our current culture. I share this frustration, but there is simply no way that a thinking man would want the Nazis to have won. I don’t believe anyone who believes that! The fact that the Nazis were - as Leo Strauss once said - the most barbaric expression of something noble: the last stand against modernity, of which Heidegger, Strauss, Schmitt and others were the true and best.
@@AncientGreeceRevisited I guess the thing is that history never stands still, things would have been different today, for better and worse in different ways. Even though it was horrible at the time and the legacy would have been as well. History would have moved on in a similar, but not the same, way up until today. It's not that certain that all things would have been for the worse or for the better. War doesn't determine who's right, just about who's left. Humanity banished many ideas that we severely need today, behind a wall of propagandistic taboo made by that victory. We might have won and killed many things that we would have needed as tools. It's a tragedy in many a sense, but one part of it is that it “tied our hands”, or rather that it tied our minds, so to speak.
Edit: This is of course true both ways, if it had gone differently, many great things of our history up until the present would have been unthinkable to us then. We need all tools we can get to arrive at the best possible arrangement, by the way humanity is constituted, we fight wars that tilt the scale so much as to deny us the full picture. A clash like that warped our very sense of what we can begin to allow ourselves to see.
@@sigvardbjorkman I can agree with all that. My response was criticizing the type of person that usually supports the German side. At least judging from the ones I’ve met. It’s more of a reaction to what is rather than a reflected view on the pros and cons of each side.
@@AncientGreeceRevisited if you meant the good side was the Greeks when they fought the Germans, i would agree as they were defending their nation, but the problem is your "good side" includes nations like the UK -which had no business in the war, and turned what would likely of been a brief small regional war into a brutal half decade world war.
Your great victory was a Europe in ruins with 50 million dead, i wonder what you imagine a loss would look like?
oh and a thinking man would prob understand a jewish zionist might be a tiny bit biased against Germany
One of my favorite historical ironies is that Germany lost the race for The Bomb in large part because so many Jewish scientists emigrated to the West because of the anti-Semitic policies in Germany.
Brilliant chat, to comment along the Alan Watts discussion also consider the influence of Aleister Crowley and his student Jack Parsons and their influence on both the hippies and the elites…
Spectacular conversation. I especially liked the inclusion of Alan Watts.
Proud 500 here.
Fascinating conversation! And very timely for me personally, as I recently had in my explorations what I would label as some sort of possible mystical experience along the lines of what you are talking about with your psychedelic experimentation (or at least I feel like I did; and though it was probably only a few minutes in duration it was what I imagine a micro-dose cocktail of LSD and Ecstasy would be like, though I've never tried either one). And I was just about to recommend Erich Neumann... but then noticed in the comments of the podcast that you've already read it. ;)
Thanks for introducing me to this guy; thoroughly enjoying his channel now. I've been dabbling in paganism and though I've been focused on a Greek-oriented version I find that I prefer some of the more "Northern" pagan channels by scholars like this one for beginner's guidance. :)
Mystical experiences can be had in many different ways. In fact, Alan Watts once said that as powerful and strange as the experience can be, in terms of its frequency of appearance, it’s “as common as measles.”
That was a fascinating discussion guys, thanks. I've never tried hallucinogens myself but I suspect that the experience would not give me any profound insight just because I'd seen reality in a different way, although I'm sure it'd be interesting. I was formerly a hardline atheistic materialist as well, and realised eventually that I had a huge "normalcy bias" towards my mundane everyday perception of reality (which I suspect is what most atheists are "stuck" in as well). These days I'm content to acknowledge that there are many things I'll never understand and that my existence in the universe is inherently absurd, whatever the "prime mover" happens to be. Since it seems to me that everyday reality is already absurd and ultimately acausal, I don't think hallucinogens would give me a new perspective on that. I'm not as learned as you guys though, perhaps I'm missing something obvious here and have reinvented the wheel, lol.
I'm drawn to polytheism because the idea of a singular all-knowing, all-encompassing, all-powerful omniscient deity seems.. artificial somehow? The idea of a single God (and also Oneness) just seems irrelevant to me, it doesn't add anything new to my perception of reality. And I'm drawn to my ancestors' pagan belief systems (in as much as we can reconstruct them, unfortunately) because it served them well for tens of thousands of years - a single millenium of Christianity (if that) is merely a blip on that scale. They lived as a part of nature and I have an uncanny feeling that civilisation, drawing us away from nature, has led us towards these monotheistic and ultimately atheistic tendencies.
72 that’s comments, just about 300 views. Hope your channel blooms.
Very nice.
Lovely discussion. One question though. As far as I can gather, you guys mention it would not be wise to try to assimilate eastern culture as we westerners don't have the memetic 'dna' so to speak, to truly understand these cultural practices on a deep level. My question is though, doesn't that same concern apply with ancient pagan roots of ones own culture. Can we really dig up our ancient pagan ways of understanding more easily than current foreign ones? Perhaps even the way Christianity was 'experienced' centuries ago is already too far back in time for us to truly bring back to our consciousness. I was wondering what you guys' views are on this.
I believe the answer is “yes!” We CANNOT understand the pagan world exactly because we are modern and Christian. I think that’s where me and Tom differ, and I am open to the possibility that this refers to a personal rather than universal shortcoming.
@@AncientGreeceRevisited Interesting. I feel like I'm personally somewhere in the middle. You being someone who studies the ancient mind, I'd be interested in knowing how diving into that subject for a long time has 'stretched' your own personal view on life. I can't imagine it wouldn't have. Perhaps an idea for a video :).
@@wonderpeter5231 Well, the things that I have understood that “blew my mind” where the most obvious “right-in-your-face” things. The things that once you see, you cannot “in-see.” One such thing has been the corrupting influence of science. You have to look at Aristophanes’ “Clouds” to see it. Scientific materialism gives tremendous powers to those who adopt it, but at a terrible cost: the soul of their culture. There are many more things but like I said they end up being obvious in hindsight
@@AncientGreeceRevisited Thanks for explaining. I have listened to Clouds and I see what you mean. Quite funny, but also deeply sad.
Two of my favourite men meet up for a chat
Another of the 500. I was surprised that during the part on syncretism there was no mention of Hermes and Odin. If I remember correctly, Thomas did a video on Odin that went into that connection.
Tomas had previously told me that Odin was similar to Hermes, and that ancient Greeks saw him as Hermes when they first me the god.
@@AncientGreeceRevisited I think it was Tacitus in his book Germania who first equated Odin with Mercury. Just for fun and to illustrate syncretism I made a chart of the days of the week in English (Germanic), French (Romantic), and Ancient Greek. For example, the English Wednesday is Wodin's Day in English, Mercury's Day in French, and Hermes' Day in Ancient Greek.
Christianity preserved the pagan (Latin pagus: regional, parochial) in its weekday/planet names: Tiu/Mars-day, Weden/Mercury-di... varying stories but with shared themes owing to a shared map above, same 'dark gods'/hormones in the blood below. With the setting of Christianity's Sun, in Twilight/Ragnarok they survived both the Medieval iconographers' and the Puritan iconoclast's Jive.
418 likes, you werent too far off about 500 people being hyped to see you two together, hahaha. love the work, heil victory o/
Thank you. Yes, close, but still off the mark!
This talk was too short, when Tom started talking about Nietzsche it started getting really good
Regards to our God shaped hole. Yes, the enlightenment but I believe protestantism really screwed things up. I'm Irish, and all over Ireland you can see paganism in the stones of catholic churches, Sheela na gig's, in Britain you've got the greenman... Catholicism was excellent at preserving/recycling old knowledge whereas protestantism really smashes everything that isn't bible. It's a terrible shame, I mean look at Anglican churches, it was a waste of time, F all people are now old school protestants, Yea you've got the new American brand stuff, which are even more ignorant and iconiclastic. It's the same with wahabi Islam, completely radical and ignorant.
Loved the chat boys, all the best to you and yours 🤘🏻
You can take this notion back even further, to Judaism itself. I did an episode on a book called "On Being Pagan" that delves into the unique character of Judaism, so conducive to modernity!
@@AncientGreeceRevisited yeah that's true actually, it's kind of at the heart of their culture to rebel against the old cultures and Islam and Christianity just carried the torch, gave it to all sorts right up to today
Big reason why I turned away from "Judeo Christian" culture.
Well I’m 501 and late to the party - as usual.
Funnily I am a British Druid taking a pilgrimage to Sounion this solstice. Thanks for the chat /|\
Thank you and welcome to Greece!
Maybe a weird question but can you tell me what clothes and hat Tom is wearing? I’m hoping to apply to an MA in Greece and wearing all white and a wide brim hat is EXACTLY what I want to wear lol Seriously I’m in Canada Greeces climate would be very different. I’m a Pagan too, this was a great video!
Hahaha. That's for Tom to answer.
Quality stuff lads
Mythopoetic and Indo-European pilled
The 500!
Orientalism, primitivism and kind of exotization of non-European cultures and religions is a big issue on Western paganism.
Yes, and it obscures the subtleties that actually make a culture what it is.
30:55 That's entirely the point! Why would we adopt all of the cultural baggage of these religions when we're not of that culture? We're searching for a truth beyond all of the mundane daily things.
I live in the U.S. I appreciate American culture. I participate in and promote it. However I was raised as an Englishman, and I practiced a type of Zen Buddhism for years. Why would an Englishman living in the United States married to a Chinese lady adopt Japanese cultural norms and hang-ups just because I found truth in Zen?
Because without the larger framework of this culture it’s near impossible to know whether one has understood or misunderstood the truth in Zen.
There are elements of meditation - that necessarily lead one - beyond the culture - one has experienced - indeed beyond words and concepts - one has to be serious though.
To transcend the world - for the profoundest inner experience - one has to work hard.
It has its own felt explanation and worth - and is the mark of a realised one.
One can still be - of a society - and yet living within - this finest inner culture (spiritual nature).
Raja Yoga meditation (India) - has the sahaj samadhi - natural continual oneness - as a distinct possibility.
One has left this over emphasis - on words, though.
Fare thee well.
15:55 If I may interject. I'd describe that way of thinking as closer to Pantheism, not Perennialism. I'm both a Pantheist and a Perennialist, so I feel this distinction is important
But I entirely agree with your point about how Pantheistic and Perennialist people too often disrespect or disregard the finer details of each tradition. Something I endeavour not to do
P.S. I personally don't believe in the "I am god and you are god" meme. I feel that it's a bad oversimplification of what the Perennialist and Pantheistic idea is, and I totally agree with Tom that this meme is harmful when presented at such a low resolution
The "I am god and you are god" is an experience to be had, not a piece of information to be stored in one's brain. From the little that I've tasted of the divine, words fall short. At best, they can be conductive to an experience, which in turn will never be captured by the same words that led one there.
We used to have gods for what we perceived as mystery/enigma. For every mystery solved, a god disappeared.
More than 500 young man.
For those who are interested in an alternative, yet scientifically grounded metaphysics to materialism, I can highly recommend the work of contemporary philosopher Bernardo Kastrup.
His theories are interesting indeed. But they lack the fundamental element that we have identified, which is the acceptance of Forms (as in Plato's Ideas) as a category of existence.
The problem that Nietzsche identified isn't a lack of morality but that morality itself answers to, covers over, and so further enables an increasing lack of virtue, that is, attuned instinct and physiological quality so not principles/thoughts/morality.
Minor error: morality is principled behavior rather than principle.
Still, morality is a cheap and unreliable imitation of virtue. Virtue cannot be learned. Training can refine what's there, but what's there shall keep getting worse so long as we trust training over breeding.
It’s a good analysis. But I think what’s missing is Nietzsche’s realization that science proper, and the scientific way of thinking is what creates the relativism we are living under. The argument would go as such: no moral system cannot “prove” itself. Ultimate, it’s based on a common understanding of “the Good,” which in turn is based on certain metaphysical assumptions that each culture holds sacred. If science “proves” that nothing is really sacred (apart from a metaphorical use of the term), then morality loses its grounding. Nietzsche’s argument was more of an observation than a proclamation. He never said “I killed God” but rather “God is dead.” As if saying “he was dead when I found Him.”
@@AncientGreeceRevisited That's all correct and well put, but it veils more than it reveals, since we were nearer the root of the problem before. The further out of touch our instincts become the more dependent we become on knowledge as a crutch so the more room there is for comparison and doubt.
Morality itself-life guided by reason, this dependence on truth, (I suspect I'd go too far by saying, "Science," but...) God's own instruction-is what killed God. "Precisely this is godliness-that there are gods but no God." See, God wasn't godly enough, that is, God wasn't relativist enough, though he did, at least, adapt himself to a variety of peoples.
In his wake, we're further from relativism than ever. We imagine we're all equally capable of living well in any land among any people, so we constantly uproot ourselves, compound the mismatch of instincts, so stamp out the embers of divinity.
Mysticism without psychedelics is possible. The knowledge is not transmittable by text, it's non verbal and has to be done in person. It's generally not shared openly because there are certain health risks if someone naïve got a hold of certain methods and thought it would be cool to try.
No problem with psychedelics and scientific materialism. The substance has a spirit as well ;).
Not for the materialists I’m afraid :-)
33:00 Maybe because the good side didn't won the WW2
OF COURSE NOT...BUT HIS SPIRIT WILL RAISE FROM THE GRAVE, AND THE WORLD WILL KNOW HE WAS RIGTH
The strongest and most cunning have always won or ruled. They lost for a reason. We could even say it was divine intervention. The modern version of that movement still fails to dominate politics and major religious groups. A different flavor of traditionalist thought and conservatism is preferred Nat Soc ideology is as dead as monarchist rulership.
If we're facing a Persian slave army, 500 of your fans would be plenty
;-)
I'm sorry to say that the right side didn't win WW2, but I agree with Tom that this isn't the reason for the decline. It's just a part of it
Of course I'm not saying the Axis weren't flawed, they were very flawed
While I can understand and respect you perspective on WW2 as a Greek, as an American of Anglo-German descent I can only see Britian and America's involvement in WW2 as a treacherous betrayal of our kin to the predations of Marxists.
Like you, I can understand and respect your perspective. I couldn't before. For a long time I would have considered you evil for thinking that. But I can now.
Greeks have been the fools of modern history. When it comes to race, we have taken upon our shoulders all of the "white man's burden" of guild, for crimes real and imagined notwithstanding, while our true history is nothing but suffering. We have white skin and a black history, and get the short end of boths sticks.
I hope everyone here is aware of this guests close ties to the far-right, and that he he is generally understood to be a white nationalist.
This guy is BS. A non-indian or Indian love towards Hinduism makes no difference from the Dharmic perspective. Don't forget that many Roman Gods were African imports.
Nazism has tarnished the far right. You mention Eugenics or certain ideas and people assume you're some raging Nazi. I'm not a fan of politics but my philosophical ideas would be considered FR by many nowadays. We know the Greeks practiced various forms of Eugenics, the most extreme example being in Sparta. I'm not opposed to Eugenics at all. The Greeks were very much quality over quantity. Now eugenics could be done in a far more humane way.
A lot of rational, sane people would be considered FR today! That tells you something.
PS You might not be a fan of politics but politics is surely a fan of you!
Quite disappointing to hear Tom's religious foundations are so narrow and pragmatist. He needs to read Heidegger.
I've read heidegger (can't say I understood it all. Awful language) - my religion is not pragmatist at all. I follow the religion which is evidently true based on my experiences with the gods
I'm glad that our ancestors converted to Christianity. Europe is lost Israel.