Shadow Generations and the Sonic Forces Problem
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 21 ก.ย. 2024
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With the Gameplay Reveal of Sonic X Shadow Generations, the Sonic Fanbase is once again discussing whether or not this release is a step forward for the franchise, so here's Shadow Generations and the Sonic Forces Problem.
Edited by - / @nitpickeryt
Twitter - / _splashdash
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Also I called Forces Frontiers at one point I hate that they put out two games in a row with F as the first letter
Victoria x Black Bull Generations 🤍♠️
@@BBWahoo dawg :|
Kay
I'm sorry to say, but your comparison of cyberspace is just flat out wrong. sure cyberspace was slow, but that's only when the game first dropped. if you're still acting like its the same without bringing up how game changing cyber space power boost and spindash is for cyberspace, you just come across as ingenuine.
@@infern24 the thing is that the level design never changed, Mark criticizes the levels themselves and how they mold around Sonic's movement, just because Sonic's movements changed from coming updates does not mean the cyberspace levels are without flaw, they're still fundamentally terrible at being serviceable Sonic the Hedgehog levels period.
I had a nightmare that they released this game and changed the physics to resemble Sonic Forces. Scariest dream I've had in a while.
It's at least made in the same framework and some animations and things are similar in Shadow gameplay (like the stopping after homing attack)
My worst nightmare is that Shadow Generations has the same animations as Forces, although the lightning coming out of his boost is amazing. If you’re going to make a remaster, or a tie-in game with Sonic Generations, then stick with the format.
On another note, change back to the first Hedgehog Engine. That seems to make better games than your new Hedgehog Engine 2
@@luccaassis2148Sonic Forces doesnt freeze you after homing attack
@@leonardowynnwidodo9704 Hedgehog Engine 2 is literally just Hedgehog Engine 1 with real time lighting and an updated feature for to bring it to modern standards.
The engine has no impact on the quality of the game and isn't the reason games like Forces are bad. Sonic Lost World ran on Hedgehog Engine 1
@@leonardowynnwidodo9704 Hedgehog Engine 2 is literally just Hedgehog Engine 1 with real time lighting and an updated feature for to bring it to modern standards.
The engine has no impact on the quality of the game and isn't the reason games like Forces are bad. Sonic Lost World ran on Hedgehog Engine 1
Has anyone outside of Twitter actually said the level design is like Forces?
Absolutely no one, Sonic Forces criticism has melted people's brains, and now any content that comes after it "Has Sonic Forces level design" and somehow they even retroactively decided to call older games like SA2, Gens and Unleashed to have Forces' level design, for me the ONLY Sonic game that falls into that before and after is Sonic Colors, NO OTHER. This is SO extreme and it just makes it harder to discuss Sonic games online
I'm outside Twitter and I'll say it here for ya. :3
Level design is like Forces :3
@@bonnymel4506I feel like any Sonic discussion on Twitter is useless tbh people are so ignorant and refuse to engage in anything that they disagree with
@@darudesandstrom1067Are you a bot? I didn't even state my opinion I just asked a question
@@bonnymel4506forces defenders is so weird. they know the mechanics is ass but they in denial
I do level design, and I dont think people realize that level design is an actual artistic skill. You cant hand out the job of level designer to some random dev on the team, because it won't end well.
I wish you had more videos of your hobby
Almost everyone on the internet severely underestimates the work needed to do literally anything.
People want easy answers and instant gratification, so when they don’t get it, they look for easy answers to explain why something bad happened, which usually ends with the conclusion that someone was just being lazy and nothing else.
What’s funny is those people complaining are always the laziest people on the planet
@@Pierceson-up8fs exactly. People are constantly begging for more and more in a game, especially graphic fidelity, and just refuse to acknowledge how much that adds to dev time. They refuse to acknowledge that the developers aren’t the ones forcing the crunch leading to a lower quality game. They always seem to know more than the devs despite never working a day in the industry lol, it’s always such a simple solution to them🙄
Oh boy, people who played Mario Maker realized that probably
I do level design too, and I 100% agree that it's an art form.
When it comes to the creation of games, my go-to saying is "it's hard, but it's not rocket science." Because once a particular skill has been developed, it becomes easier for that individual to use that skill, whether it be music, drawing, modeling, coding or level design.
In Sega's case, creating good level design for Sonic games should be relatively easy because they can simply hire an individual or a team who specializes in level design for fast paced games like kart racers or even get some of the Super Monkey Ball staff over there.
Like you said, it really comes down to Sega likely underestimating how much effort it takes to design good levels so they don't have experienced people creating them, as they may not feel like it's necessary.
Imo the reason people jump on the gun and say "Oh it's just Forces" is because the terrain is plain and there is a lack of uphills or downhills, wich were present in Unleashed and Generations
Ya probably.
I dunno.
It's also because of how blocky it looks too I'm guessing.
@@snowyneko6710to be fair this is a plain mechanical space station, I think if we get any levels with more natural terrain like a better look at kingdom valley this argument would go away
And mechanics. Most of the level is just homing attack and boost, compared to generations. Which has light speed attack, stomp, etc.
@@BlurBlizzard this game does have three stomp and the lighspeed dash is an unlockable.
The big difference is the drift
I saw someone on Twitter saying Sega didn't learn because they didn't make it look like Mario 3D land. These are 2 separate ideas being done here.
Lemme guess, that was SwitchForce, wasn’t it?
WHOS DISRESPECTING MA BOI???????
BWAHAHAHAHAHA
Forces truly has traumatized a generation…
In other news, Shadow Generations looks genuinely amazing, a little premature, but I’m still excited for it
It took them 7 years but hey, it’s looks decent.
I'm not hyping myself up, but I'll give it a shot on steam, especially since I can refund it.
I am always open to being wrong, and pointing out where the cope starts with the fanbase.
Just keep in mind, the team that’s making Shadow Generations is closer to the team that made Forces than the team that made OG Generations
@@frothyslider253...Well, maybe thats cause the team that made Generations made it... like more than a decade ago?!?
"It's been Generations since I've seen you"
I gotta say Forces does have some spectacle... very rarely
That one transition to 2D in Sunset Heights is actually really cool imo
I actually really like the escape from null space bit. Fist bump really carried that section
What Forces has done really well other than most of its soundtrack, are the levels themselves. They are beautiful to look at.
“Very rarely”, in my opinion it does have a lot of spectacle.
One (probably) weird that bothers me about the Frontiers engine is how flat and lifeless the skydiving sections look. In Unleashed and Generations there were actual weighty physics based on what direction you fall and a much closer camera which just makes the skydiving sections feel much more fun to control.
The new Shadow levels do look great though. I've wanted to be able to use Shadow's chaos abilities in gameplay since forever.
I get what you're saying. The first time I saw the shadow gameplay with him skydiving, it felt lifeless. For example, in unleashed, you can see Sonic tilting his body in the direction you want him to go. While in shadow generations, he justs... slides to the next location without any change in animation.
Actually, makes sense. I just didnt notice cause i am a fairly new fan and Unleashed and Generations are for now out of my capabilities to play them, and Sonic x Shadow Generations will soon be my first interaction with the classic boost gameplay
I'll take the sections looking worse if it means it still controls well. I personally think of those 3 games, Frontiers by far had the best control.
@@brantchristy3490 We shouldn't be complacent with a lesser product, that's how Sega was able to get away with bullshit over the last decade.
@@Kingdom850Kingdom Hearts pfp
I got to meet Roger Craig smith at con while the new trailer was releasing, so that was pretty cool.
Yo that’s awesome
Did your life peak right there?
Did y'all smash?
@@srcoeiu6100anyones life would peak there.
I hope there weren't any clay hedgehogs running amuck...
As someone who isn't the biggest Forces fan, it's funny how a portion of the fanbase treats that game like how everyone treated Sonic 06 over a decade ago. Speaking of 06, Shadow Generations looks pretty cool so far, and it's cool that they're bringing back stages people wouldn't expect like Kingdom Valley.
Should've been Rise of Lyric tbh. But I guess people didn't need a new "broken glitchfest" strawman. Instead, Forces is used more as a "boring and brain dead level design" strawman.
Makes sense though,the one thing 06 has over forces is the creativity ,forces doesn’t even have that ,it played it safe and still ended up being bad
@@slwoo7432 Forces seems like it wanted to be creative but the devs were still afraid of all the criticism the Sonic series has received so they subdued it. Infinite is oozing with style but it feels like Sega was too afraid of committing to him being a real genuine threat and basically created the copout of everything he does being fake. Really hope they bring him back one day and fix him rather than leaving him to rot in such a mid game.
Yeah I don’t get why people still bash Forces ether. Though hey maybe years later maybe people would realize that it wasn’t that bad of a game as they thought
It doesn't matter if its "not that bad". The reason we dislike it is because it wasted one of the best story ideas for sonic and fumbled it so hard and screwed up the sonic canon and lore even more.
there was so much potential, yet it was wasted due to poor management and direction. That's what stings, Its one thing to have a bad game like 06 due to bugs and being a broken launch. But 06 actually had a good story and good zones for shadow and silver. So good that people remember them to this day. You can actually salvage things from 06 and appreciate them. Forces doesn't have that. Nobody ever talks about the mechs, the badniks, infinite or the ocs that came out of that game in this day and age. It was a kitbash of generations and lost world assets. It was a failed attempt a 2nd sonic generations game that tried to put in eggman winning only for it fall flat and create more problems. Eggman winning should have been the entire planet being a sonic CD bad future or eggman land. Forces barley gives you any impression that your resistance fighting agiasn't an oppressive force or there is a real war going on. GUN isn't even properly shown in the game, They could have played a big part. We wanted SATAM but with modern sonics world and actual serious plot. Not the barley impactful and lazy attempt that forces ended up being.
Accepting mediocrity is what leads to stagnation and worse games. The reason why people dislike forces is because it represented the stagnation and how safe sonic team kept playing it instead of taking risks. The attempt to please all fans at once didn't work Its one thing to be a bad game and have an actual risks taken behind it. its another to be one thats just bland.
My main thought is that the camera since Lost World has just felt... Stiff? Like it'll snap from point A to point B in the Shadow gameplay, and it just feels. Jarring with Gens camera being smoother in the same game and years older.
I think it's less "it's forces level design" but "the crappy awful camera makes stages Feel like forces level design" which makes some people feel a placebo-type effect and it reminds them of how clunky forces felt.
Well that's just my two cents anyhow.
@@S41tyPr3tz31I was saying the same thing the other day! Gens’s camera was so much more dynamic and often closer to sonic which made the game feel a lot faster.
HOP OFF-
my bad your actually right tee hee
@@S41tyPr3tz31
You're onto something...
...keep talking.
@@BBWahoo If you insist.
From what I can recall, Forces was a boost game, which I think was built off the previous game instead of the previous boost game: Lost World, not Generations.
Which is probably why the boost games lately haven't felt like Gens: they remade the boost mechanics off of the Lost World engine instead, and stuff like the clunkier camera that was built for Lost World's level design are still being used to this day.
With the remake of Gens, it would've been the Perfect time to rectify this possible error, yet they're still building off of whatever edited engine that was made for and used by Lost World.
It's all quite strange, really.
It’s actually interesting to see Sega fully embrace the Shadow the Hedgehog game, as terrible as it was. I just hope that Shadow’s writing and characterization is better in this.
That game is a slippery banger
Woah now the game wasn't terrible
Controls were tight yall just don't play it right
as of late he hasn't gotten good characterization at all and it has everything to do with segas mandates and writers not being able to write around those mandates because of how annoying they are. Nobody likes what sega wants for shadow and I just wish they got the memo. He's a hero, not an anti-hero. We want the shadow from 06, the one who fights with rouge and omega by his side no matter what. The one who promised to keep humanity and earth safe from any threats.
As for the shadow game. I don't think Shadows character wasn't bad in that game. He was the same shadow from SA 2, heros and 06 if you played the good paths. Most of the "bad moments" Come from the endings or paths were shadow is the bad guy. Of course he is gonna act out of character and like a jerk. Those are the alternate endings that aren't canon. That was the whole gimmick of the game. 06 had the best shadow characterization of them all.
How are we *still* gaslighting people into thinking that Shadow is a bad game? Like yeah, Westopolis can get repetitive, there's a few annoying missions, the ending system wasn't so well thought out, and the localisation isn't great, but at the same time, the levels are (mostly) well designed and fun to play, the character interactions are great, having multiple ways to finish a level is awesome, the Black Arms lore is great, a lot of the Black Arms weaponry was a lot of fun... Like how are we still doing this? SEGA are embracing Shadow because more and more people are speaking up that Shadow was a good game.
@@sethisevilone02the controls were terrible because it used a modified version of the Speed characters of Sonic Heroes in which having bad control was the "setback"
I think what Shadow generation’s paths offer is helping shorten your run time. Which I think is a fine gameplay style. I still would like to see pathways show different locations for the level though.
Reminds me of the Bowser’s Fury mode from the Mario 3d world remake.
Shadow's Furry
Black doom's fury@@BBWahoo
That's exactly the accurate description I give this game.
Not really because we already have open zone gameplay in Frontiers. Bowser's Fury is testing the waters for a 3D Mario we haven't gotten yet.
@@Kingdom850it’s added content to a decade old game as a modern rerelease
Moron…..
i always forgot forces is 7 years old, and i grown a beard already. I WAS MIDDLE SCHOOL WHEN FORCES RELEASED TF HAPPENED TO TIME
Crazy how it's almost a decade old 😭
Sega: Pay extra to be able to zoom in on the forces and generations models on mini digital dioramas
Also Sega: Doesn't make generations level packs that people will happily fork over money for
They'll probably do that for this release
@@LeopoldLitchenstein Frontiers showed that they can do big things with post-release content, I'm hopeful for some level packs later on.
@TerraBlue_451 I'd love to see the games post Generations get some rep with a stage. Plus the Storybook games and CD and 3 getting full stages (Sky Sanctuary is considered a Sonic and Knuckles stage by the game)
Imagine getting studiopolis or metallic madness. as level dlc. with a junio sonic as a skin. Please. We need more metallic madness music!
Ah yes, Sunset Heights from Sonic Frontiers
I caught that to
Lol
17:39 as always, Sonic fans have no idea how much of a shoestring budget the team has had to work on for years and are shocked that, now that the team's got money, the game looks good.
That why Frontiers was the way it was
They had like no money to make it
That why I give Frontiers a pass
@@sethisevilone02 Frontiers gets a pass because it was a "last chance" opportunity, and caused the budget of the next games to increase.
Shadow Gens gets a pass because it's just a minor spin-off, not a major game, so it makes sense they wouldn't rewrite the whole physics/character controller framework.
But I swear, if the next major game STILL uses the Lost World framework, with these extremely unnatural physics, jarring animations and non-existent blending, over-the-top-arcade-y controls...
They’re a multibillion dollar company
@Kooky95 yeah it's Sega fault not sonic team
@@sethisevilone02 Not really, Sonic Team made failure after failure which caused Sega to decrease the budget in the first place.
I know Sega of Japan is a terrible company, but the fandom is parroting "it's Sega's fault" while completely disregarding Sonic Team's faults, and that saddens me.
0:36 A smile was brought to my face, and a tear to my eye
Free Palestine
Oh hell no premy is here the toxic dude, great
I hate it when Sonic fans call people who critique the games "nitpicky" because recent sonic games have suffered from a death by a thousand paper cuts. I couldn't get into Frontiers because the game just lacked so much minor details that made previous entries interesting to play. What good is fun level design if the environment is lifeless? It's like stripping City Escape of its cars you can run into or its San Francisco aesthetic (Basically what the city cyberspace is lol). What good is Sonic's movement when his animations are boring? What good is Sonic's speed if the camera does nothing to enhance it to make him look faster? Hopefully Shadow Generations is amazing and I hope those who buy it have fun, but I'm still very skeptical.
i know right, that's been the biggest issue with sonic games lately. the production quality & budget just hasn't been there. let's hope the success of frontiers has let them increase the budget - so far shadow generations is looking more polished than anything else sonic team has put out since 2011
I'm personally very skeptical because in terms of track records for remasters? Sonic is disappointingly inconsistent. Sonic Adventure 1 has basically with every rerelease gotten messier and messier, Sonic Origins, while fine released with issues that a slam dunk like that should've never released with and the sooner Sonic Colors Ultimate can just be forgotten the better. This looks good but I also worry what the catch might be.
I am begging for the Magna-Fi version of All Hail Shadow to be available in the in-game Jukebox. It absolutely throttles Crush 40’s version.
Crush 40's own original work is fantastic, but their covers ALWAYS fall flat compared to the original versions
@@themenacingslothI don't know. There version of his world is bitchin.
1:26 You'll never guess what the new trailer just showed
1:41 That city cyberspace in Frontiers is actually confirmed to be called "Eternal City" from an official source.
One thing I thought was pretty interesting that someone pointed out was that the timer stops when shadow uses chaos control. Idk if that’ll matter for speedrunning but still a cool detail that sonic team didn’t need to put in.
As a game developer, it makes me very happy when people notice and praise tiny details. But this time it's really not worth praising IMO.
Chaos Control freezes time lore-wise, so it's not really spectacular game design, just the intended behavior; and the code-wise implementation is 1-2 lines long. if (!ChaosControlManager.IsChaosControlActive()) timer += dt;
On the contrary, since speedrunning is so prevalent in Sonic games, the timer should not be messed with, in my opinion. Otherwise people will have to keep their own timers to calculate world records and such.
I’m pretty sure that if this was just a generation remake with the extra Shadow stuff, nobody would care and would just pass it off as a rerelease
Wait, is it not that?
@@MasterMemokinda. It’s just “Sonic Generations” mixed in with some Shadow gameplay.
@@fryguy9704Its literally 2 separate games in one. One of them is a bit or way shorter than the other (Shadow, obviously), and Shadow's gameplay is far more like Frontier's gameplay than Generations, making even more distinction between the games.
@@silverstar1614 I see now. Thanks for clarifying.
I feel like a partial reason why there's a big complaint is that the shadow stuff is a lot more marketed than what I remember was marketed for the episode shadow DLC
Man the sonic community was already broken but I broke the community extra with my opinion only 😅
9:19 I have nearly 50 hours in Generations on Steam plus however many hours I had on the 360 from 2011 and I had NO CLUE you could do this. That absolutely blows my mind. This game has been out for nearly 13 years and I'm still learning new things about it.
Imagine the disappointment when people realize there's only 3 levels like they did with Shadow in Forces.
The levels seem to be a little longer, taking Shadow through multiple areas per level.
My guess is Adventure 2, Shadow the Hedgehog, and '06 are the 3 games that are gonna get represented, with a boss fight for each one. Likely Biolizard, Mephiles, and Black Doom.
@@KingGoji-m1r3 Has this been confirmed?
Dude, it’s much longer than that. I would say it’s more akin to Bowser’s Fury than just 3 levels and that’s it.
When watching the first trailer, my first thought after seeing the Shadow stages was “oh it’s another Forces game” as you said, cause from the footage there didn’t seem to be some alternate paths and it’s really straightforward (as in it’s literally linear paths and no windy roads).
Seeing the demo, however, changed my perspective in that there are alternative paths you can take, and that the cutscenes taking place during the stage makes it more appealing to watch. Nevertheless, from what I see, it’s like a Generations/Forces hybrid, in which you have alternate paths which you have to quickly react to reach them, but with a more slow, platforming aspect to it (plus the animations are that of Forces, like his spin jump, the boost animation, the homing cursor SFX, etc. ). What’s even more disturbing imo is that apparently they used Hedgehog 2 instead of 1 like in Generations. If you’re going to make a remaster of a game, or a tie-in, then stick with the format. It doesn’t stick well.
P.S. I also wish there was a drift in Shadow’s stages (preferably similar to Sonic’s in Unleashed.
But will Sonic Team bring back guns and swearing?
letting go of boost to control speed isn't a flaw. it's called speed control and has been a thing since sonic 1.
No one mentions how Forces' level design revolved around collectibles. No one. People write it off as "oh, uninteresting," which I'll grant for the moon and number rings, but when collecting the red ones? You actually have to *interact with the environment* and do *different things.*
14:42 Is exactly why the shortcut shown at 5:34 (Yes, there's a shortcut there. Game's been out 7 years, and I only learned about that 1-2 years ago.) doesn't matter: *the end of the clip shows the end of the shortcut.* Let's not forget how the level design doesn't even use its automation correctly, as shown in the clip where the player stops boosting, or else they fall off the turn. (there's a "brake" function I've used to make that turn. The game doesn't explain which button is the 'brake' button.)
And I *like* that Modern Sonic metropolis level. The starting 2D section has multiple paths, (it hides the red rings at the very bottom of the area. :x Should've had a way to use the top path for one, but whatever. I'm asking *Forces* for good level design and mechanics, ew.) and the ending 2D section has complex level design a la mario platformer. There's even a way to skip the automated section when it turns back to 3D!
...but that's the problem, too: "skipping automation" isn't fun. Like you mentioned: there's no "spectacle" involved in Force's collectibles or their shortcuts. The variety in the Avatar stages have to be chosen before the stage starts. And unlockables? Aside from clothing, the special stages are claustrophobically linear, and number/moon rings don't do anything anyway (and they kinda suck in the first half of the game). The point you have at 4:52? Absolutely valid. (Also, I agree with it.)
Just needed to get that off my chest. >
The only aspects of Shadow Generations that remind me of Forces are either things common the Hedgehog Engine 2 like the camera movements and certain aesthetic choices. I think I've always just preferred the Hedgehog Engine 1 titles like Unleashed and Generations all around over the HE2 titles, whether it being some choice made by the directors or baked into the engines.
Despite this, I don't wanna dismiss the game before I play it, because I think this game could be good, both in terms of what hasn't been seen or how the things we have seen end up feeling when I get to play it. I ultimately just want something that feels good out of the get-go, provides a fair challenge, and keeps me engaged all throughout.
Unleashed is my favorite entry for almost everything it has to offer, but solely regarding the daytime gameplay: I like how Sonic controls, I like the tight obstacle course level design, and I'm constantly engaged since the level design and variety of moves ensures I stay focused. I hope that Shadow Generations can have these strengths and don't think any complaints I have with what's been shown are enough to judge the game in its entirety.
Unleashed chads rise up, men of culture.
Given that shadow’s stage changes between the Ark and radical highway, I think they could do a frontiers stage for Sonic that goes through all 3 main biomes in a fun way
16:09 don’t know if you’re aware but it serves the same purpose as it does in 06, the laser gate shortcut coming up in that tunnel is accessible by exclusively using the chaos snap
My main Complaint is the Level Design seems kinda simple, relying a lot on Homing Attacks instead of Platforming, most Alternate Paths reconnecting to the main path in less than 10 seconds with little variety in their design, and the various sections where you mindlessly boost forward. If this is the first level then that’s fine but I hope to see less of this in later levels, a Hard Mode DLC that increases the Difficulty and Complexity of every level would be awesome.
Platforming my beloved
Yeah. Just a certain.. joie de vivre that it’s missing. Little things that seemed standard at the time we now have to ask for. Though it’s been confirmed to be the first level so l don’t want to be too hard on it.
Hence the reason why people are saying it looks like sonic forces. Honestly, I don't understand why people are acting like it's crazy to at least be cautious with how many times Sega has burned them in the past. Sure I'll try it out and give my full opinions then but yeah the level design doesn't look on par with base generations so far.
I think the biggest thing Shadow Generations has going for it compared to Sonic Team's more recent output is a general sense of polish, or at least cohesion. Frontiers really had that as one of it's biggest issues (and at least in my opinion Final Horizon has this issue to the point where it genuinely barely even feels like it was made by professional developers), so it's nice to see something from Sonic Team actually feeling like a proper game.
Everything from Sonic Team has been a proper game. Stop hating on them.
Alright, so both you and Bikuribox are very optimistic for this game. I seriously hope it doesn't age badly like his Superstars video
He needs to get his act together and be an eternal optimist like me.
5:04 that's because it was built off of lost world rather than generations physics since they couldn't use havok.
8:15 Ah, yes, sunset heights. My favorite sonic frontier's level.
Genuinely or are you being sarcastic?
@@benmalsky9834 sarcastic, sunset Hights is from forces and he said it was from frontiers
@@TheFallenStar64 I’m sorry. I just feel that this guy’s sense of humor is not for me.
@@benmalsky9834 who's? Mine?
@@TheFallenStar64 No, LS Mark AKA Splash Dash.
I learned new things about speed highway today, didn't know you could jump onto the heli at the start.
Just goes to show how much there is to discover about the Generations levels
do you think sonic fans will randomly start loving forces one day? right now it's the punching bag but that might change suddenly
There’s a bunch of people who love forces lol currently
Some sure. I still find it mediocre but it's playable
also don't tell the other zoomer sonic fans but I'm not a big fan of unleashed, it's better than forces by a lot but idk man I see so much people praise the amount of content in it but most of it is just bloated filler and even the day stages don't control the greatest imo
I'll be there to buy the possible port on day 1 though
I only like Forces because it was my first Sonic game so I have a soft spot for it
It's not ambitious like '06, which is why it probably got so much hate.
Sonic fans hate bad games, but they absolutely ABHOR safe ones.
The nintendo strategy of slapping a seperate game with an existing one isn't my favorite choice, but it's miles better than "HOT WIZARDS IN YOUR AREA" ultimate with it's divisive and unfitting changes. Remasters have not been sonics forte, but as a meta-era kid I'm rooting for this to be good.
It IS good when they got a great new side game like with Bowser’s Fury.
8:15 Green Hill from Sonic 2
Emerald coast from Sonic 06
@@SparklingJam Desert Ruins from Sonic Forces
@@thawkade angel island from sonic colors
@@SparklingJammetal harbor from sonic and the black knight
@@kirby-y9k city escape from sonic superstars
I still think the level design we've seen was still a keg or two below Generations, it still has a certain... "forces reek". To be fair, seeing the level in its entirety made me realize it doesn't look as much like forces as it seemed like with the second trailer, but it's not quite at the level I grew accostumed to... Maybe they're just holding back on the first level as they usually do with boost games.
They nailed the spectacle, though. Haven't seen a sonic (shadow?) level with that much going on in quite a while, if ever.
I hope the story for Shadow Generations is interesting and at the very least, more involved than Generations. (not that I think generations needed a good story for the premise of what that game was going for). Though tbh, it's probably gonna be the same as Generations where time eater gets quirky and sends Shadow down to relieve trauma. With that context I doubt that the black doom we see is the real black doom (in the sense of how perfect chaos in generations isn't the real perfect chaos)
9:19 YOU COULD DO THAT!!!?? 😱😱🤯🤯
8:15 FORCES, NOT FRONTIERS!
Thank you for my TED talk.
I mean both begin with F and likely one was on the mind. Mistakes can happen.
@@the-aspiring-creator4249 True. Plus, he already addressed it in his pinned comment. Whether he did it before or after my comment is unknown to me.
My favorite level from frontiers was definitely sunset heights
That, Egg Gate and Mortar Canyon are the ONLY good levels in Forces. The rest is a mixed bag of disappointment especially Classic Sonic. Still don’t understand how they couldn’t make Classic Sonic control as good as he did in Generations.
Kingdom valley in sonic 3 was great
Sweet mountains is peak shadow the hedgehog level
@@amari648 The instant acceleration when you get to a certain speed doesn't help.
@@Onaterdem his movement was so trash and his jump was stiff asf😭😭
I just will never understand why they used frontiers movement, as well as even things like picking up rings etc
Isn't the movement from Frontiers considered to be good, tho?
@@jakethedog1483Not really in the linear boost levels, no.
@@thawkadeI guess so. Tbh when it comes to general movement without boosting Unleashed and Gens don't control well at all. Having that kinda control with TheBiolizard boss would be a nightmare.
@@jakethedog1483 I personally hated it
@@jakethedog1483Only the open zone controls, not cyberspace
I think all of your points are extremely valid! The only complaints that I could really give for the level design of Shadow’s stage is that some of the paths are unnecessarily wide and aesthetic architecture around the first half of the stage is near nonexistent.
Other than those two things, this is looking really promising. Let’s just hope it lives up to the hype.
I feel like Sonic Forces criticism has gotten so simple people think that the first sight of anything that reminds them of Forces automatically makes it a direct parallel. I'm not defending Forces and personally don't like where it left the models and physics of the series but I do think that Shadow Generations (or at least what has been shown) can rise above it in terms of level design. I don't think it'll reach the level of Generations (which kinda sad that a game released almost 13 years ago still feels like the most mechanically polished Sonic experience) but I do think it is succeeding in what it's trying to do and I like what it's trying to do. I am very optimistic for this campaign and optimism is not an easy emotion to get out me when it comes to Sonic.
2:09 Visual representation of what Sonic has been doing for the best two decades.
My fear isn't that it'll end up like Forces. My fear is it'll release to a similliar state to the Sonic Colors Remaster.
Colours ultimate was outsourced to a smaller studio, Blind Squirrel who tried to make to many unnecessary changes. Shadow gens is being developed by Sonic Team themselves, with Sonic gens being mostly untouched, and Shadow gens looking great visually and bug-free
@@orenji2385 Blind Squirrel was also barely given enough time to actually work on the game and one can see from their track record they're generally pretty good at their job WHEN they have the resources and time necessary. I know we want to believe SEGA when they say they're committed to not rushing their games but... it's kind of clear that they're still in the business of rushing games out the door when they're not ready.
I like how you refer cyber space as its own separate thing because sonic frontiers is actually really good and has pretty good movement. Just not in cyber space
I think the thing that excites me the most about the new Shadow stuff is the future of Frontiers especially if it gets a sequel.
I also think after the game comes out they can release an update to have the physic changes from Shadow Generations apply to Frontiers Cyberspace
No “Forces Design” tweets can stop me from getting excited for Shadow Generations!
At this point if ur still talking about forces, you have issues. Like serious issues
I remember when I saw the discourse, went "Oh wow...", and then proceeded to pre-order the game anyways since I was sold Day One and when the pre-orders came, I was in line.
I have better things to do than worry someone's a contrarian, such as playing Generations modded, or seeing if there's a remapping mod so that way when I start playing, I don't have muscle memory issues from jumping in.
I will always say it but im genuinely worried for sonic fans who drive because if a 15 second straight line at the beginning of a level has you that pressed, I dont know how you handle driving the highway ( /j)
Like normal people
@turboshazed7370 Normal people and sonic fans are mutually exclusive, and you know it. (/j)
I'm (/j)erking off
Me when I went outside:
*Literally Forces level design*
@@Sonic_The_Hedgedog_Reddit
My city installed boostpads recently and car crashes have gone up 3000%
I want shadow the hedgehog 2 damn it
Generations had some SICK LEVELS!!
Watching the city level there, I couldn't pull my eyes away. They used the scenery in everything.
My problem wirh forces is that when theres a lot, theres too much and when theres little theres too little. The levels never reach peak level design in engagement. The back drop is always cool but I'm not playing the back drop. The actual interactive sections are hugely forgetable in forces.
Everything is controversial in the sonic fandom
I would also say somewhat that this issue is also caused by Superstars. The first 2-4 levels of that game looked fantastic during the pre-release, but the levels would drastically decrease in quality as the game went on. People are scared that the same thing may be applied in Shadow’s campaign.
8:15 Sunset Hights from Sonic Frontiers
Is nice
Never really liked the way you talk cause you always sound like "Sonic has to be this specific thing I want or it's bad." As if you're the guy they gotta impress when you definitely have some of the most unpopular opinions on Sonic. Like I'm really expecting you to spend 4-5 minutes maybe even less talking about what little you ended up liking about Shadow Generations and then spend the entire rest of the video just bashing it saying why it's "bad" when the game comes out and if you make a video on it. It'll actually be really good probably but that'll be what happens with you still. I also wouldn't mock valid points like "this Sonic game has the same linearity so why aren't you calling this bad" that some people say in response to the Forces allegations for Shadow Gens. That's a completely valid argument and exposing the hypocrisy of those allegations.
And I'd really spreak for yourself as many people, myself included, had a blast with Lost World and Frontiers so nothing "embarrassing" happened with Sonic Team to where they needed to take over a decade to get back on track. Boom and Forces was where it fell off. Plus with Cyberspace those were never the meat of the game. I'd understand what you said about them if they were the main shtick of Frontiers, but they weren't. The variety and cinematic moments were everywhere else in that game. And the homing attack "delay" thing was cool and gave impact to it, it was not a pace breaker plus the one in Shadow Gens looks way faster anyway.
did you watch this video? "i expect you to spend 4-5 minutes talking about what you ended up liking" - if you watched the video you'd see I did basically nothing but praise it lol - I have said in countless videos I don't care if Sonic doesn't cater to my interests as long as its good, what are you on about lol
@@SplashDash_ Yes I did watch the video, did you read my comment? I literally quoted the video a couple times. I said when it comes out that's what I'm expecting to happen with you, never said you based it here. You're extremely particular when it comes to Sonic games, it happened with Frontiers where the game actually was pretty good but all you did was compliment a part of the story you liked and a little bit of the actual game while the rest of it was bad I guess. What I'm "on about" is that your actions don't really follow your words, sure you've said that but then you act like if certain interests of yours aren't catered to it hurts the game overall.
@@chrange9714 I agree with you
I’m sorry unrelated but what is the song playing the background at 5:37 ? I’ve been looking for this song forever!!!
Should be "Lava Shelter," from Shadow the Hedgehog (2005)
Im so excited to play Kingdom Valley in HD
I mean, technically it already was HD in 06 🙃
I just realized how classic sonic changes shades of blue after shadow appears in the original trailer
I just dont know how people have such faith in sonic team, its not like they're known for making even multiple 8/10s in a row. They can barely get more than 5/10s. Feels like sonic survives mostly on nostalgia and copium
This whole criticism of Sonic Forces being on “autopilot” or “it holds the player’s hand the time” is absurd. I’m just about every Sonic game, and I mean EVERY Sonic game, you have to pay attention to when you need to press the buttons. There are many instances where even when things are automated if you don’t time it right you will die or fall off or run into a bomb. It is still a game that requires your reflexes.
3:58 sponsor skip
NO
@@TheSultan1470i hate when people replies only the word "no"
@@orangespikeanimates4480 Why wouldn't I.
@@TheSultan1470 you're literally giving 0 reason to say just no
@@orangespikeanimates4480 Do I need to.
the straight section in radical highway where youre just running is so the player focuses on what black doom is saying
The Sonic fanbase is so decisive its insane. Even when the game LOOKS GOOD, there's still that shadow of doubt... (no pun intended).
To be fair, SEGA hasn't exactly made things easy in recent years and if you look through the history, it's been a recurring problem.
@@the-aspiring-creator4249sega is very spontaneous with there quality.
@@micjimster4845 They really are and to a very frustrating degree and when it comes to remasters? It's really bad. Sonic Adventure due to the layers of porting has basically gotten worse and worse to the point where you really need to mod the crap out of the game to get the definitive experience, Sonic Origins is a fine way to play the old games but was clearly rushed and introduced issues that shouldn't be there (While also making adopters of the original pay to upgrade which means they've spent so much more on these games than they should.) and Colors Ultimate was just sad so while this looks promising? I'm definitely concerned going into it.
I'm probably one of the few who actually really enjoyed Forces but I would never compare Sonic x Shadow Generations to it outside of the obvious really good looking graphics carried over from Forces and Frontiers. This game looks great.
The way you speak..... hurts
Potatoe eater
i think the reason it feels like Forces, is because their camerawork is very... rigid... like the cameras in Forces and Frontiers..
in Unleashed and Generations, their camera has more dynamics..
oh wow! Sonic x shadow is out already?
No?
ah okay, another unnecessary video from the sonic community
What's wrong with having a discussion lol.
@@turvimania Too early maybe?
@@leodetective6056 We have two trailers, and multiple footage of a full level and boss fight lmao it's not too early.
I hope sonic gens’ new control scheme still has a way of drifting since it was necessary for parts of speed highway if you wanted to take some shortcuts
Sonic gens isn’t changing. It’s the same game with some extra bonuses. The only change to the remaster is Shadow Gens
@@Kohtix yes, but there’s going to be an option to use the new button layout in the “base game” (sonic gens part)
@@NamelessCrusad3r I’m assuming that it uses the left trigger?
@@Kohtix in original gens drift was on right and left triggers but idk where drift is gonna be mapped since with new button layout boost is on RT and drift was never mentioned
@@NamelessCrusad3r idk we’ll just have to see
I’m guessing 90% of twitter saw that The Shadow Model is from Forces and came to the conclusion that “this game is just forces again”
Frontiers had a similar debacle during its reveal.
not gonna lie ,but when I heard that Sonic X Shadow looked like forces, I laughed my head off
8:15 bro you called sonic forces sonic frontiers 🤦
is it his fault or the fault of sonic team for releasing two games with a subtitle starting with the letter "f" followed by the letters "o" and "r" (in different orders, but still) back to back
The good thing about the homing attack in Shadow Generations is that the delay isn’t as bad as some playthroughs will have people think. There was one video I saw where one player spammed the homing attack and the delay was actually super quick which resulted in fast successive attacks.
This game makes sonadow canon!
It makes creamegg canon too
@@BBWahoomakes WHAT
At this point, Sonic fans are skeptical so much of the time that it’s getting tiring. I say we always get excited for new games. The more optimistic we are, the less complaining I will see, and the less complaining I see the more I will be happy.
0 views in 33 seconds? Bro fell off
Me when I’m a TH-cam commenter and I feel like running a joke into the ground:
😐😐😐
Screw you
🤖🤖
Not funny
Didn’t laugh
9:51 OH MY GOD I NEVER KNEW THAT WAS THERE, HUNDREDS OF HOURS OF GENERATIONS AND IM STILL FINDING SMTH NEW
Disagree on Forces' control model being better than Cyberspace's tbh. I don't think that game had potential to be fun even if the level design was godlike, the feel of the controls is just horrendous, jumping in Forces is one of the most disgusting feeling things I've ever done in a video game. So sluggish and heavy and short... Cyberspace had its own set of new & returning problems, but at least it felt *kinda* snappy in comparison.
This is what really sets Gens & Unleashed apart to me, the sheer speed and snappiness of it all, which they're unlikely to ever fully bring back due to difficulty concerns.
8:16 ah yes, my favorite frontiers Level sunset heights
1:13
🤓 “Erm, actually, it’s a remast-”
*Blows up*
Ok lmao the Jimmy Neutron clip got me
18:41 team sonic racing crying in the corner
17:42 ironically one of the reasons why shadow gens is as good as it is is because of frontiers' success
I also think the level design is more like SA2, with how the alternate paths usually lead you to the same way but with slightly different areas of the level to explore. (and how linear the levels are)
The crazy thing is that Space Colony Ark is probably the first level in the game. Even though you used Speed Highway as an example, Modern Green Hill might be a better comparison for it
I feel my brain melting out of my ears watching this
I’m curious to know what your thoughts are on Forces Overclocked, because similar to Shadow Gens it does a much better job at adding complexity, variety and environmental spectacle to the level design which really improves the experience of base Forces.
I will never understand why Sega/Sonic Team strayed so far away from Unleashed. It was the winning formula. And now we've come full circle wit Sonic X Shadow Generations
LOL warehog
@@TheSultan1470 I meant mainly the day stages
I NEED the final level of Shadow Generations to have I Am... All of Me as the music
The only things wrong with lost world
1: not much momentum (doing pretty much anything other than running, jumping or spin dashing will slow you down)
2: Bland characters. Most characters in this game are very bland and two dimensional, ESPECIALLY the deadly six
3: the dialogue. Often times (and I mean just shy of being all the time), the character dialogue comes off as cheesy and uninspired (except Eggman’s dialogue. Eggman’s Dialogue is peak).
4: bugs. There are some notable bugs here and there.
5: slow. The game isn’t very fast.
OMG WAS THAT FADEL GAMESCAGE 😱🤯🤯🤯🤯😱😮😮😲😲😲🙊🙊🙊🙊