@@MyTechFun the fact its patented is probably the problem rather than it being rare, you can also reinforce manually, just takes more time and effort, but so do manual filament changes when printing without AMS, cool machine concept gated behind -greed- small price fee :)
@@ponxaspat6133 I could see a specialized tool head for the Prusa XL-perhaps even third party. That way you have seamless movement from nylon to fiberglass & back again with no human interaction between! Add a belt for continuous printing and you have a composite production line with only a minimum of post processing. Still might need a bake in the autoclave to reach max strength but much less manual work.
Printing with maximum walls will always be more resistant to bending than 100% infill because you have much more contentious material in plane. The 100% infill part has gaps forming that allow room to bend, the max wall part would need the material to stretch to get the same bend. Loved the video! Really interesting to see printed parts can be so strong.
Absolutely. In most of the videos about practical prints, people use methods similar to methods used for printing of display/play objects; especially, thin walls.
I believe Igor has tested this in past, and found that 100% infill is _stronger_ than maximum walls - at least for layer adhesion, because there are _less_ gaps. I don't remember if the test had bending. Group 3 was printed at *lower layer height* , which isn't always good for layer adhesion --> possibly more likely explanation for difference to group 1. It shows clearly benefit of glass fibre core in group 2, sharing the other settings.
I have worked with a fibre laying printer and it's nice for planar parts or parts that mostly need support in only one dimension. Kinda sucks for actual 3d parts that are more complicated than a 2d cutout extruded in the z-axis. It has its place for sure but many practical parts need isotropic strength which laid fibre will never produces unless you can print with a 5D head (which you already can with some experimental printers).
I love this - both the effort to be scientific and consistent with your testing rigs, and the topic of composite printing materials too. I have not printed with composite filament yet.
Wow, that's strong stuff. I guess the similar temperature test is because the reinforced material melts and loses grip on the glas fibers. Won't ever be able to print that, but interesting to see.
We had this printer at work, its important to note that it is extremely susceptible to moisture and absorbs it like crazy. Also general part / material degradation seems to be more substantial then on ABS / PLA. Parts worn out quicker, it almost feels like an organic material. Will absorb oil and get that "worn" look.
I'm learning how to print Tullomer filament...it's not Kevlar but it has many of the same properties. 300+ C nozzle, 120 C print bed, 60-80 C chamber. Print speed 500 mm/sec, layer thickness 0.05 mm. Bambu X1 Carbon works pretty well with this stuff. Biggest problem I'm having is bed adhesion. Well, cost is a big problem too...$275 US for 500 grams. Then again, it is cheaper that some grades of PEEK.
@10:34 it makes perfect sense that printing with more walls has more strength than 100% infill, as the polymer chains are laid out length wise end to end rather than folding back on themselves along the width, probably with lots of retractions that break the chains.
For measuring outside the capacity of the scale, have you considered using a leaver system, where you use a bar between two hangars, one fixed (it may even be a support with a pivot, and the other end is held up by the scale. Then mark out suspencion points at 1/2, 1/4, 1/8, etc of the distance from the fixed pivot to the scale. Then you can set the item under test to one of those points, and simply multiply the readings of the scale by the inverse of that fraction to get the calculated strength of the item under test.
Impressive material, well done on the testing and showing the data; I would have like to have seen close up exactly HOW the glass fiber is printed. Is it internal to the filament? Are special moves required for the layers? How 'continuous' is it? Maybe lay a strip of filament out and melt it in an oven so we can see the strand consistency. Still, great work, and showing the future.
I've been browsing all those Ali and Temu filaments. I've seen some CF and GF filled nylons and PCs and some other high temp filaments that for shiz and giggles I'm going to buy and test. I'd bet there's some good ones, most all of it comes from only a handful of places
@notyouraveragegoldenpotato I've got some ASA CF from a brand called Haephestus ( or something like that) Seems pretty great. 15% chopped fibres. But the TPU I've not done anything with yet.
หลายเดือนก่อน
I would just buy the BASF 68D or whatever which is more available. I would honestly buy the aliexpress if I didnt have 2 unopened rolls of 68D TPU atm.
00:00 famous line in JDM community CABON FAYBEY😆 PS u can try to infuse fibers by hand , stop the print on layer u want , lay down thin fibers and use soldering iron to make them stick to the plastic before next layer , not the prettiest but works PS.2 im working with composite materials (mostly glass and carbon fibre) so it always sounds funny for me 😅😆
Awesome as always. It should have been interesting to see a twisting torsion test. I imagine the continuous fiber only helps a little. Also wonder if there isn’t a way to do some of this ,annually, ie lay in fibers like one might a nut or magnet.
Why not lay fishing line in the print with a fishing line feeder? Then fill any gaps with the melted extruded material? Fishing line typically has some pretty insane tensile strength.
Awesome video as always! The amount of data you've provided to the 3D printing community is crazy!!! I recently watched 3D printing nerd's video on Z Polymers " tullomer " filament, it would be really interesting if you could get your hands on a sample. They essentially created a filament that can be printed with any machine, and it has an internal structure such that it prints just like a continuous ( kevlar I think ) fiber
I contacted the company so many times, but not even reply I didn't got. Looks like they are sending it to bigger experts only. I got so many requests to test this filament, that at the end, I will buy it.
@MyTechFun Sad to know they didn't reply! They are definitely missing an opportunity. Looking forwards into your new video, I believe you'll be one of the first, if not *the* first to make this kinds of tests with it! Thanks a lot, have a nice day
@@MyTechFun They probably don't want your expert scrutiny at this time, just "fanbois" to be astonished at how "good" their filament is with no means of objective verification...
Hi, thank you for the content. Can you do a test of the Tullomer filament by Z-Polymers? Cause they say it has ultimate tensile strength of 500MPa. Insane stuff
I contacted the company several times. Not even a reply from them (positive or negative). At the end, I will buy the filament and make another video with the negative budget 😞
About a year back Nathan Builds Robots did a hatchet handle which had screen mesh imbedded in the print and he used magnets to keep the mesh tight while it was printing. Have you tried this method? I believe he had to mess with flow values to a bit for the layers that had pauses for adding the mesh. Seems like a cheap way to make a strong composite part using standard printers.
great info I've always wondered hw much better the continuous glass made! Any chance you can Test some of the Jabil Filaments 4535 specifically its 40%carbon fibers
Igor, have you considered doing a test between various bed adhesives (e.g. Magigoo) with high warpage materials (e.g. ASA)? I would be very interested in knowing if there are differences, especially in terms of residue (e.g. white marks) on black parts. Also, if there is a coating that can make TPU easier to release from the bed that would be very helpful.
For me, textured PEI works great with PLA, PETG. For technical materials Engineering plate + glue stick works perfectly. Somehow I don't feel need to test other adhesives.
@@MyTechFun I only know what you print for the tests, so I apologize if you have experience printing more difficult and more cosmetically beautiful objects. Glue stick leaves a white residue on parts that is unacceptable if the bottom is visible to the user. Magigoo also leaves a residue. Textured PEI is not always acceptable for printing; sometimes you must print on a smooth PEI or lightly-textured plate. For TPU, the soft durometers (60-85A) are easy to release from brand-new textured PEI plates, but over time ruin the plates. If you try to print TPU on a smooth PEI plate (e.g. making watch bands) it is almost impossible to release without damaging the plate or the part. I have found that heating the plate to 100C can help release some types of TPU from PEI but it is unpredictable.
I contacted the company several times, not even a reply from them. At the end, looks like, I have to buy the filament and make another video with a negative budget :-(
The general idea of the Markforged printers is very simple. You have two nozzles, one that extrudes Onyx (at least 99% of the time) and one nozzle that extrudes a continous fiber. Here's a short video that shows how it works: th-cam.com/video/46MyMgrGhho/w-d-xo.html
Does average CF/GF filaments use chopped fibers or milled powder? Wondering why manufacturers don't extruder filaments with few cm long chopped fibers? Probably due challenges extruding it...
Rally interesting stuff but i think its just economical for us to use a printing service if we need parts with the continuous Glass fiber. We will see if some Chinese company will develop also a printer with continuous fiber?
Exactly my thoughts, only I forgot to mention in the video. Equipment is expensive, because it is rare. But it should't be much more complicated than just a good IDEX printer.
Markforged printers are very average 3d printers up close but the parts they turn out are amazing. Really need some competition in continuous fibre printers. The patent system in theory lets other companies licence the rech at a reasonable price but in practice not so much.
Have u seen the new 3d printing material that 3d printing nerd showed? Is stronger than steel in tensile test and stringer than every 3d printing material so far, You should ask for a sample
Great video. I've long said that I think the onyx pro is the best bang for your buck out of their desktop lineup. It's a shame that they are such old machines now, and that the cost to get a modernized version is accessible only at the industrial level ($$$$). It's also a shame that the pricetag is what it is, and that the materials are as expensive as they are. In my opinion, carbon fiber is not worth the extra cost over glass fibers. Glass is a good middle ground for a lot of properties, providing significant stiffness, strength, and additional durability. If only it could be made available for consumer base at a competitive price point. Or someone develops a better process. All patents expire one day...
if the fiber is continuous then you can't travel when printing the part right? does this require a special printer with a cutter or do you just print parts that don't need travel?
at that price point the only keeping these guys in business are the patents. Such a shame they dont do consumer grade machines or at least licence out their patents. Yet another case of patents being bad for the consumer.
should be good, also for carbon fibers. but if you have a fill line of plastic coated fiber, you cant jump, you must route a continuous extrusion path.
Neat, but the #1 critical issue with 3d print strength has nothing to do with any of the tests in your video, which I think you're well aware of. How about do any tests in the weak direction? Test layer adhesion. You know. The #1 problem.
Wow that's a proper composite material. Very impressive
Praying for the day this hits the consumer market
Hopfully, some Chinese company will make one. It is expensive, because it is rare so far.
@@MyTechFun the fact its patented is probably the problem rather than it being rare, you can also reinforce manually, just takes more time and effort, but so do manual filament changes when printing without AMS, cool machine concept gated behind -greed- small price fee :)
@@ponxaspat6133 I could see a specialized tool head for the Prusa XL-perhaps even third party. That way you have seamless movement from nylon to fiberglass & back again with no human interaction between! Add a belt for continuous printing and you have a composite production line with only a minimum of post processing. Still might need a bake in the autoclave to reach max strength but much less manual work.
@@ponxaspat6133how to reinforce manually? I wonder how does the glass is added
@@MyTechFun Finally TH-cam is recommending your video, lezzz gooooooo
So glad I found your channel, Igor. It has quickly become my favorite 3D-printing videos! Be well, friend! Thank you!
Printing with maximum walls will always be more resistant to bending than 100% infill because you have much more contentious material in plane. The 100% infill part has gaps forming that allow room to bend, the max wall part would need the material to stretch to get the same bend. Loved the video! Really interesting to see printed parts can be so strong.
That and especially for the bending, the fibers are also aligned length wise on the maximum wall version
Absolutely.
In most of the videos about practical prints, people use methods similar to methods used for printing of display/play objects; especially, thin walls.
I am curious if something cheaper than CF or GF would be sufficient.
I believe Igor has tested this in past, and found that 100% infill is _stronger_ than maximum walls - at least for layer adhesion, because there are _less_ gaps. I don't remember if the test had bending.
Group 3 was printed at *lower layer height* , which isn't always good for layer adhesion --> possibly more likely explanation for difference to group 1. It shows clearly benefit of glass fibre core in group 2, sharing the other settings.
@@michaels3003 metal wire embedded mid-print? Cheaper, but more difficult to form right (printed jig?)...
This was the best ad for continuous line fiber printing. Wow.
This was VERY interesting. I had no idea glass fiber could increase the strength this much. Amazing video! :)
Thanks
Thank you!
I have worked with a fibre laying printer and it's nice for planar parts or parts that mostly need support in only one dimension. Kinda sucks for actual 3d parts that are more complicated than a 2d cutout extruded in the z-axis. It has its place for sure but many practical parts need isotropic strength which laid fibre will never produces unless you can print with a 5D head (which you already can with some experimental printers).
Yeah i noticed that, tried to order some parts at work but none of them could be printed with fibre. Had to get regular sls pa12 gf instead.
this looks like a proper glass fiber reinforcment
I love this - both the effort to be scientific and consistent with your testing rigs, and the topic of composite printing materials too. I have not printed with composite filament yet.
Wow, that's strong stuff. I guess the similar temperature test is because the reinforced material melts and loses grip on the glas fibers. Won't ever be able to print that, but interesting to see.
Great videos as always
7:10 - Dinner always tastes funny on testing day.
Jó volt látni végre ezt is. Sok erőt a munkádhoz!
We had this printer at work, its important to note that it is extremely susceptible to moisture and absorbs it like crazy. Also general part / material degradation seems to be more substantial then on ABS / PLA. Parts worn out quicker, it almost feels like an organic material. Will absorb oil and get that "worn" look.
Useful info, thank you!
Extremely interesting results!
Wow, that was some impressive material. I could not believe how well it did in that impact test.
I really enjoy how time efficient and to the point this video is. Very interesting.
I'm learning how to print Tullomer filament...it's not Kevlar but it has many of the same properties.
300+ C nozzle, 120 C print bed, 60-80 C chamber.
Print speed 500 mm/sec, layer thickness 0.05 mm.
Bambu X1 Carbon works pretty well with this stuff.
Biggest problem I'm having is bed adhesion.
Well, cost is a big problem too...$275 US for 500 grams.
Then again, it is cheaper that some grades of PEEK.
5:49 The giddiness in your laugh at seeing it do that was great
@10:34 it makes perfect sense that printing with more walls has more strength than 100% infill, as the polymer chains are laid out length wise end to end rather than folding back on themselves along the width, probably with lots of retractions that break the chains.
Köszönjük, erre nagyon kíváncsi voltam, hogy megéri e az árát.
Seriously impressive! This tech could be so useful in so many applications 😮.
For measuring outside the capacity of the scale, have you considered using a leaver system, where you use a bar between two hangars, one fixed (it may even be a support with a pivot, and the other end is held up by the scale. Then mark out suspencion points at 1/2, 1/4, 1/8, etc of the distance from the fixed pivot to the scale. Then you can set the item under test to one of those points, and simply multiply the readings of the scale by the inverse of that fraction to get the calculated strength of the item under test.
Thanks for another good video, very interesting! And thanks to the kind chap that provided the samples and footage of the printing.
Impressive material, well done on the testing and showing the data; I would have like to have seen close up exactly HOW the glass fiber is printed. Is it internal to the filament? Are special moves required for the layers? How 'continuous' is it? Maybe lay a strip of filament out and melt it in an oven so we can see the strand consistency. Still, great work, and showing the future.
Hi did you ever try the random ali express 72d TPU?
I've still only done one test print with it so far 😅
I've been browsing all those Ali and Temu filaments. I've seen some CF and GF filled nylons and PCs and some other high temp filaments that for shiz and giggles I'm going to buy and test. I'd bet there's some good ones, most all of it comes from only a handful of places
@notyouraveragegoldenpotato I've got some ASA CF from a brand called Haephestus ( or something like that)
Seems pretty great. 15% chopped fibres.
But the TPU I've not done anything with yet.
I would just buy the BASF 68D or whatever which is more available. I would honestly buy the aliexpress if I didnt have 2 unopened rolls of 68D TPU atm.
I'll try doing some kind of small test print with the 72d
Thanks again for the great content, Igor!
00:00 famous line in JDM community
CABON FAYBEY😆
PS
u can try to infuse fibers by hand , stop the print on layer u want , lay down thin fibers and use soldering iron to make them stick to the plastic before next layer , not the prettiest but works
PS.2
im working with composite materials (mostly glass and carbon fibre) so it always sounds funny for me 😅😆
Awesome as always. It should have been interesting to see a twisting torsion test. I imagine the continuous fiber only helps a little.
Also wonder if there isn’t a way to do some of this ,annually, ie lay in fibers like one might a nut or magnet.
Seriously strong stuff. But very specific for it’s application I guess. Not for the average consumer.
Thank you for sharing!
Why not lay fishing line in the print with a fishing line feeder? Then fill any gaps with the melted extruded material?
Fishing line typically has some pretty insane tensile strength.
Sadly it’s not practical + might create layer shift?
Awesome video as always! The amount of data you've provided to the 3D printing community is crazy!!! I recently watched 3D printing nerd's video on Z Polymers " tullomer " filament, it would be really interesting if you could get your hands on a sample. They essentially created a filament that can be printed with any machine, and it has an internal structure such that it prints just like a continuous ( kevlar I think ) fiber
I contacted the company so many times, but not even reply I didn't got. Looks like they are sending it to bigger experts only. I got so many requests to test this filament, that at the end, I will buy it.
@MyTechFun Sad to know they didn't reply! They are definitely missing an opportunity. Looking forwards into your new video, I believe you'll be one of the first, if not *the* first to make this kinds of tests with it! Thanks a lot, have a nice day
@@MyTechFun Anyone can request a printed sample from them. Would try contacting them again. Perhaps give them a phone call?
@@MyTechFun They probably don't want your expert scrutiny at this time, just "fanbois" to be astonished at how "good" their filament is with no means of objective verification...
@@retromodernart4426 It looks very strong material, the only thing I worry about, is the layer adhesion.
Yup this is why I subscribed!!! 👍👍👍
A very good test. I'd love to know more about the process to create the test pieces.
Hi, thank you for the content. Can you do a test of the Tullomer filament by Z-Polymers? Cause they say it has ultimate tensile strength of 500MPa. Insane stuff
I contacted the company several times. Not even a reply from them (positive or negative). At the end, I will buy the filament and make another video with the negative budget 😞
About a year back Nathan Builds Robots did a hatchet handle which had screen mesh imbedded in the print and he used magnets to keep the mesh tight while it was printing. Have you tried this method? I believe he had to mess with flow values to a bit for the layers that had pauses for adding the mesh. Seems like a cheap way to make a strong composite part using standard printers.
can you test Tullomer from Z-Polymers!
I contacted the company several times, no reply from them. At the end, looks like, I have to buy the filament :-(
great info I've always wondered hw much better the continuous glass made! Any chance you can Test some of the Jabil Filaments 4535 specifically its 40%carbon fibers
So measure the outside planes instead of inside for 8:55 to see differance
Igor, have you considered doing a test between various bed adhesives (e.g. Magigoo) with high warpage materials (e.g. ASA)? I would be very interested in knowing if there are differences, especially in terms of residue (e.g. white marks) on black parts. Also, if there is a coating that can make TPU easier to release from the bed that would be very helpful.
For me, textured PEI works great with PLA, PETG. For technical materials Engineering plate + glue stick works perfectly. Somehow I don't feel need to test other adhesives.
@@MyTechFun I only know what you print for the tests, so I apologize if you have experience printing more difficult and more cosmetically beautiful objects. Glue stick leaves a white residue on parts that is unacceptable if the bottom is visible to the user. Magigoo also leaves a residue. Textured PEI is not always acceptable for printing; sometimes you must print on a smooth PEI or lightly-textured plate. For TPU, the soft durometers (60-85A) are easy to release from brand-new textured PEI plates, but over time ruin the plates. If you try to print TPU on a smooth PEI plate (e.g. making watch bands) it is almost impossible to release without damaging the plate or the part. I have found that heating the plate to 100C can help release some types of TPU from PEI but it is unpredictable.
how did you do this I cant seem to find any info
would be cool if the fiber was also along the z height for better layer adhesion
Dear Igor, would you happen to have a test of Tullomer planned in the naer future?
I contacted the company several times, not even a reply from them. At the end, looks like, I have to buy the filament and make another video with a negative budget :-(
@@MyTechFun hmm give it another try, you're getting more famous every new day :-) thanks !
Cool material , by the way i got the same blue silicon in my desk 😅
Very expenensive but very strong
i can't help but wonder how slowing down (50% speed, 25% speed) on the PPA-GF would effect the layer adhesion and overall strength?
can you please test the limits of this materials too?
Very interesting 👌
Can you get details of this printer and propose a diy version of rhis process? That would be awsome!!!
The general idea of the Markforged printers is very simple. You have two nozzles, one that extrudes Onyx (at least 99% of the time) and one nozzle that extrudes a continous fiber. Here's a short video that shows how it works: th-cam.com/video/46MyMgrGhho/w-d-xo.html
Nice. Mark forged reinforcement without a mark forged price tag
I would like to see how the Tullomer filament by Z Polymers will compare to this.
Is number 3 bullerproof?
Glass fiber n carbon fiber mix for bullet proof stuff ? Is that possible sir?
have you seen Tullomer ?
I love that company, I hope he follows through with his intention on making it accessible to consumers
That stuff just shrugs it all off. The way the impact tests barely left a dent was funny. Boink!
Does average CF/GF filaments use chopped fibers or milled powder? Wondering why manufacturers don't extruder filaments with few cm long chopped fibers? Probably due challenges extruding it...
priceless video... perfect
Rally interesting stuff but i think its just economical for us to use a printing service if we need parts with the continuous Glass fiber.
We will see if some Chinese company will develop also a printer with continuous fiber?
Exactly my thoughts, only I forgot to mention in the video. Equipment is expensive, because it is rare. But it should't be much more complicated than just a good IDEX printer.
Markforged printers are very average 3d printers up close but the parts they turn out are amazing. Really need some competition in continuous fibre printers. The patent system in theory lets other companies licence the rech at a reasonable price but in practice not so much.
I would fill the hook with glas fiber triangles, I bet it would be stronger, than glassfiber on perimeter only
The temperature test probably needs a higher load to show an actual difference
Yes, to follow the ISO standard. But I have 100+ tests with this method. So, I will not change now.
Do you want to co-author papers? These tests are worth publishing in some scientific journals. At least for young engineers reference.
Have u seen the new 3d printing material that 3d printing nerd showed? Is stronger than steel in tensile test and stringer than every 3d printing material so far, You should ask for a sample
Great video.
I've long said that I think the onyx pro is the best bang for your buck out of their desktop lineup. It's a shame that they are such old machines now, and that the cost to get a modernized version is accessible only at the industrial level ($$$$). It's also a shame that the pricetag is what it is, and that the materials are as expensive as they are.
In my opinion, carbon fiber is not worth the extra cost over glass fibers. Glass is a good middle ground for a lot of properties, providing significant stiffness, strength, and additional durability.
If only it could be made available for consumer base at a competitive price point. Or someone develops a better process. All patents expire one day...
And here we have the reinvention of the wheel aka reinforced concrete.
if the fiber is continuous then you can't travel when printing the part right? does this require a special printer with a cutter or do you just print parts that don't need travel?
Steel suddenly became obsolete
You didn't show how you add the continuous glass fibers to the print
Your videos are very good but it's often difficult to understand what you are saying. Please speak more slowly and clearly and keep up the good work!
Nice, but the weak layer is Z.
It's not weak. It's average. (Looks weak compared to XY)
at that price point the only keeping these guys in business are the patents. Such a shame they dont do consumer grade machines or at least licence out their patents. Yet another case of patents being bad for the consumer.
should be good, also for carbon fibers. but if you have a fill line of plastic coated fiber, you cant jump, you must route a continuous extrusion path.
what?
Yes, composite materials have some nice features. But disposal is not one of them. Use metal instead.
Neat, but the #1 critical issue with 3d print strength has nothing to do with any of the tests in your video, which I think you're well aware of. How about do any tests in the weak direction? Test layer adhesion. You know. The #1 problem.
Look at his tests a bit closer.
To be fair, CFRP is pretty weak in Z too; just the strength of the epoxy and there's not all that much of it.
Two anda calf owers
I think this is what bamboo labs is going to do next 🫣🙏 it's the only thing that makes sense now that prusa realized the core one 😳