The interesting thing to me with this comparison test is the Hulk continues to increase in the horsepower achieved even though it’s less than the others , but the others reached their peaks and then the horsepower started to fall away that makes me think that the Hulk needs more cubes or rpm to get the best out of it . Which goes straight back to what you said in the beginning that manifolds are combination specific . Great test and very interesting results
That hulk just don’t have enough airspeed/velocity for that motor to make and power maybe if that thing was revving 8500plus you might see it come to life. Airspeed is king people live to chase cfm. Great work brother appreciate your channel. God bless
Hulk manifold's lack of power is do to Atomization and Airflow utilization(&airspeed , I know I saw someone else say it) I'm lucky enough to own my own SF901 for over 30years now( WinDyn 5 conversion now). One thing I've found is If you look at the CFM used to make peak power the Hulk was .77(HP/CFM) while dual plane was .915 ,Eddy 2892 was .87 , with dimple spacer , .88, AFR manifold was .915 , I know it's not scientific and it's this old man's theory, but the closer HP/CFM is to 1 the better the air/fuel efficiency is of the combo. If the Long block would support it, that Hulk comes alive above 7500rpm, Beats the Old Mopar 420 converted intake..............Now the fun Test would be EFI versions of each. Love the videos keep up the awesome work.
In the case of the hulk. Ive used a couple in the shop. And i seen same thing. And what ive concluded is the velocity isnt as strong and fuel is falling out and puddling and losing the atomization. Worked good on a sbc with 13 1 comp. So i agree velocity and atomizing. Wouldbe the issue
Great video. It's always about the data. One can't always make a conclusion on data, it's a ponder game that needs played. If anyone has been upset I would say go watch something else.
Cylinder draw is not adequate for the larger manifold. The motor does not create enough proper vortex through the manifold throat to create a smooth flow. Air inside the large manifold is backwashing inside the manifold throats.
Eric go back and listen to the two Dyno pulls. They don't sound the same. about about 15 years ago I was doing some testing like that and when I changed my intake I set my ignition timing at 25° instead of 35 and the first pull it was 100 horsepower off of course I flipped out and finally figured out what I had done
I had a 355, brodix track 1 heads (not ported, but angle milled and flowed about 250 cfm max) legit 13.7/ compression, 265/275 @.050 .645/.630 108 cam. 8" ati converter, 5.43 rear gears. A perfomer rpm was faster then a victor Jr. Both were port matched. I'm not surprised the afr 2 plane made over 600 hp.
Forgive me but... that receptacle with the plug in 180 degrees upside down - cable strain is guaranteed, and jacket insulation likely to pullout. Its a little piece of trouble waiting to happen and tick you off when you least need it. For soft jacketed cable, a minimum bend radius of 5x diameter is usually good - any tighter and insulation is prone to cracking over time. Love these manifold comparisons - we always learn something.
These video's are always interesting! Building a sbc 427 with AFR 200 heads, 242/248 cam, and 10.5:1 compression now. Debating between the 2892 the Trick Flow R. Thoughts?
@@WeingartnerRacing on LS applications I have had to make some pretty big changes in timing when going from a long runner stock style intake to a tunnel ram style intake. The engine wanted a lot more timing with the tunnel ram type intake to get the same torque. Just sharing my personal experience.
Maybe the plenum is too big 1) causing eddies under the carb and 2) not maintaining velocity a; letting the fuel fall from suspension as well as b; causing a "sponge" effect in the air that's affecting the harmonics
If you're running the Hulk NA, it wants 9k- 10k rpm, big cam, heads that flow like an All Pro. I have the brother to it, the PPE 23° 4500 intake, and it got beat up by the ported Edelbrock and the ported Brodix running NA on a 434 sbc only 7800 rpm, .875 int .860 exh cam, and built to order heads when we done a test. Now, I put the f3-121 on with the blow through IRD carb on the same heads, cam, still on e85, and the PPE woke up and beat up on the Edelbrock and Brodix pretty damn good in ho and torque. Just my experience. No I won't say who the heads come from other than east coat company.
If it were on a full race 434 making north of 750. The hold would shine. manifolds are toucy when they are high. Many times I used a std single plane over a dual plane and lost ET. I also have had either no gains or big gains with header size. As you know it's all about bout the combo
The Hulk would Shine on a 440ci SBC at 8500. URE's typical engine build are always upper rpm builds leading me to believe that is why the Hulk is designed the way it is, i think Chris probably noticed a need for a manifold like it for the customer that needs or wants a cast manifold . A lot of URE's engine builds have Marcella Billet Intakes on them but that comes with a $$$$ cost. 99% of what comes out of URE's Shop doors is a Big cubic inch Higher RPM engine.
PS. Didnt i hear you say that a two barrel wouldnt work on the 2925 over the 2975! Im very dialed but i just ended up wt a 2925! So you have a book for me! I just need to figure out how to get one? If they not on ebay i have no luck😢
It seems to me that the plenum volume on the Hulk may be too large for the engine being tested compared to the smaller volume on the Edelbrock manifolds. I'm thinking on a 427 cubic inch or larger with larger cylinder heads the Hulk would shine. Just an idea, Eric. Trust me, I'm no expert and I'm not telling you anything. I'm just giving my thoughts. Keep on testing, brother.
🤔 you think that the hulk intake is just too big and killed velocity? I wonder if you cut the intake down to the same height as the Edelbrock , and then retested it? Looks like there's plenty of meat to cut it and retap it .
make a few graphs of the air and fuel used by the manifolds...save of course the error numbers of last manifold...disproves them fellers that say an engine is just an air pump...used more fuel and more air but made less hp and tq!
An engine is a glorified compressor. It compresses air. Air has many qualities. One being water. Water expands 1000 times turning to steam. Overall, there are gasses at "X" value. These gasses are also at "X" temperature. When gasses are compressed the temperature is additive. 10:1 is 900 degrees with 1 bar at 90 degrees. Add and ignite fuel and we significantly increase temperature and thereby pressure. Pressure peaks can reach destructive range. Calculating the variables mechanically and then fuel specifics, there is much to account for. Wait, did you say boost! :-) Lots more calculations. Then the driveline needs to be calibrated for the increased loading. Nothing exists in a vacuum.
The Volumetric Efficacies numbers look BAD the best was 107% @ low rpm and dropping to 96% @ high rpm's where it should be closer to 120+%. Slow ports with no energy low torque ?
This isn’t a max effort engine. Those numbers are actually good max effort and rpm might get 120 but not a basic build. The ports are not slow. When it had smaller port heads on it had worse ve.
Something just seems way off for that result. Looking at Chris' intake it seems to have all the right aspects of a well designed intake. Potentially something in the carb is not working with the intake. If a tapered 4 hole like a HVH was trialled and it responded, then that is the first sign that the carb needs some attention or the signal side. There's so many variables with this stuff it can catch you out.
It’s more simple than that that manifold was designed to make well over 800hp its way to much of a manifold for a pissy 650hp deal it wants head that flow a fair bit over 350cfm and big cubes or huge RPM..
People still ask about cast iron heads? Even I got the hint after the first video saying you don’t port them. Probably if some are just dead set on cast iron, just buy the Motown 220 as cast, or 227 CNC Motown cast iron heads from World products. Then send them to Eric and have them flowed. If you are not happy with them, clean them up, open them up and send that back to be flowed again, see if it’s better. Probably what I would like to do. I like the numbers from the promaxx heads and victor jr. Tests. If anything has convinced me going to aluminum heads, is these tests. I know you had a video of a set of Dart 220 SHP heads and Dart 230 pro 1 heads. But these darts were aluminum not cast iron. But I do not think you have flowed the cast iron World Products Motown 220 heads.
He had my Motown 220 head but it wasn't stock someone butchered and he didn't share the flow numbers because it wasn't stock that's how bad mine were so I am curious how it the 220 motown flows as cast and then the CNC version to
@@chevyrc3623yeah I would like to see how the stock 220 Motown flow numbers stack up to advertised numbers. I took screen shots of worlds catalog and Darts catalog that are hard to find now.
Little Brother, have you seen the barrel chested plastic tunnel rams in use today? These manifolds are effective, but by what comparison? They can be metal if you like. I remember the F4B fondly. A 302 outrunning a Vette is a pleasure. Later a Ferarri and a 74 TA with 400HO on the shaker. After leaving them behind the wife asks when did they paint all the solid white lines on the Highway? It took a few for her to realize physics. I5 is a trail of Dots. At a buck 60 the dots cling together. We outran a TransAm and a new Ferrari 308 GT. TA had Cal plates, 308GT had NY plates, and I was running a 70 Muskrat with Maine plates and 10/32 mudgrips. Really glad they held on. Mini gumball rally. :-) Never do again. LA to SD in one hour.
You keep defending the hulk 23 when you checked everything.. still sucked . Like hurricane you just wrote it off . I think that intake is still better than others . Hulk sucks for this combination simple. $1500 waste for this motor combo. NOT a fluke lol
Clearly not enough motor for a manifold that big.. this thing wants a head flowing upper 300 cfm numbers and high rpm’s and big cube this thing is for 800+hp deals! Nothing wrong with the manifold just gotta have the right combination and the hulk was Never designed for small hp deals
I have a similar issues with a 408 in my race truck. My issues are ambient temperatures in Arizona. This is a Sprintcar engine Sammie Swindell engine guy built. I bought a Progression ignition distributor and run a 850 ATM INNOVATION CARBURETOR and a CarbCheater.com for the street. The distributor helps me with timing curves and AFR the Carb Cheater help my driving.
@WeingartnerRacing my AFR had a afr of 11.8 at 4500 to 5500 rpm then would steady at 12.8 to 13.2 so with the progression distributor I raised the timing at 4500 to 5500 by 1 degree and it when up to 12.5. I run 36* total.
Dont port Cast Iron heads... maybe it require experience & knowledge, they aren't easy like good flowing Aluminium out of the box. Expensive equipment with all the Data and no idea....
![[LIVE] : ONE ลุมพินี 89 | คู่เอก "ยอดไอคิว vs คิริลล์"](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Z3vYkHJ_5Ig/mqdefault.jpg)
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We appreciate all your time and effort Eric
The interesting thing to me with this comparison test is the Hulk continues to increase in the horsepower achieved even though it’s less than the others , but the others reached their peaks and then the horsepower started to fall away that makes me think that the Hulk needs more cubes or rpm to get the best out of it . Which goes straight back to what you said in the beginning that manifolds are combination specific .
Great test and very interesting results
That hulk just don’t have enough airspeed/velocity for that motor to make and power maybe if that thing was revving 8500plus you might see it come to life. Airspeed is king people live to chase cfm. Great work brother appreciate your channel. God bless
Hulk manifold's lack of power is do to Atomization and Airflow utilization(&airspeed , I know I saw someone else say it) I'm lucky enough to own my own SF901 for over 30years now( WinDyn 5 conversion now). One thing I've found is If you look at the CFM used to make peak power the Hulk was .77(HP/CFM) while dual plane was .915 ,Eddy 2892 was .87 , with dimple spacer , .88, AFR manifold was .915 , I know it's not scientific and it's this old man's theory, but the closer HP/CFM is to 1 the better the air/fuel efficiency is of the combo. If the Long block would support it, that Hulk comes alive above 7500rpm, Beats the Old Mopar 420 converted intake..............Now the fun Test would be EFI versions of each. Love the videos keep up the awesome work.
Great test, sometimes you get more questions than answers when performing testing
then you have dyno is one thing, in an actual vehicle is another
Eric, you should smile more 👍🏻
In the case of the hulk. Ive used a couple in the shop. And i seen same thing. And what ive concluded is the velocity isnt as strong and fuel is falling out and puddling and losing the atomization. Worked good on a sbc with 13 1 comp. So i agree velocity and atomizing. Wouldbe the issue
OMG..... I WANT that manifold on the left... WOW.... talk about intimidation look lol.... SWEETNESS....
Great video. It's always about the data. One can't always make a conclusion on data, it's a ponder game that needs played. If anyone has been upset I would say go watch something else.
Cylinder draw is not adequate for the larger manifold. The motor does not create enough proper vortex through the manifold throat to create a smooth flow. Air inside the large manifold is backwashing inside the manifold throats.
Thanks for the great information sir 👍😎💪
Keep up the awesome content!
Eric go back and listen to the two Dyno pulls. They don't sound the same. about about 15 years ago I was doing some testing like that and when I changed my intake I set my ignition timing at 25° instead of 35 and the first pull it was 100 horsepower off of course I flipped out and finally figured out what I had done
It’s on a crank trigger. The timing never changes because you never adjust wheel or magnet. We did check phasing of distributor with no change.
I'd like to see this run on a 450ci+ sbc with 23 degree heads.
I had a 355, brodix track 1 heads (not ported, but angle milled and flowed about 250 cfm max) legit 13.7/ compression, 265/275 @.050 .645/.630 108 cam. 8" ati converter, 5.43 rear gears. A perfomer rpm was faster then a victor Jr. Both were port matched. I'm not surprised the afr 2 plane made over 600 hp.
Thanks brother
Could it be velocity in the manifold being lower?
I'm guessing the 2892 and the AFR single plane has some more air speed and swirl?
The hulk probably designed for a larger city engine running at or above 8000 rpm
Great channel, Thanks for the info. What were your AFR #s.
They are on the dyno sheets
Are there some wall angles that are affecting the atomization of the fuel, that it drop so much HP having almost the same CFM on both fuel and air?
Let me confirm this with David
😂
Forgive me but... that receptacle with the plug in 180 degrees upside down - cable strain is guaranteed, and jacket insulation likely to pullout. Its a little piece of trouble waiting to happen and tick you off when you least need it. For soft jacketed cable, a minimum bend radius of 5x diameter is usually good - any tighter and insulation is prone to cracking over time.
Love these manifold comparisons - we always learn something.
The 220-volt plug looks like the same 60-AMP plug I have. It's the way the plug is made and it can't be turned 180 degrees.
Great vid
These video's are always interesting! Building a sbc 427 with AFR 200 heads, 242/248 cam, and 10.5:1 compression now. Debating between the 2892 the Trick Flow R. Thoughts?
Hello, did you ever do a review on the Edelbrock Victor small block Mopar Head?
Plenum vol and reflective wave?
Runner length is clearly different
Did you optimize ignition timing for each manifold? They may need different timing for best power.
They all ran the same timing. I have never seen a manifold require different timing. However I did not test that.
@@WeingartnerRacing on LS applications I have had to make some pretty big changes in timing when going from a long runner stock style intake to a tunnel ram style intake. The engine wanted a lot more timing with the tunnel ram type intake to get the same torque.
Just sharing my personal experience.
@Eric Weingartner I looked on website. Are you a dealer for Dart and World heads? Did not see them on there.
Maybe the plenum is too big 1) causing eddies under the carb and 2) not maintaining velocity a; letting the fuel fall from suspension as well as b; causing a "sponge" effect in the air that's affecting the harmonics
I am sure the Hulk intake is best suited to a large head on big cube engine turning a lot of rpms.
Converted to fuel injection and used in a centrifugal supercharger application
@@ecc5119 I am pretty sure it was made for high rpm n/a engines. The guy that designed it builds high rpm big hp big cube na engines.
That's a great head hulk 23 failed simple
If you're running the Hulk NA, it wants 9k- 10k rpm, big cam, heads that flow like an All Pro. I have the brother to it, the PPE 23° 4500 intake, and it got beat up by the ported Edelbrock and the ported Brodix running NA on a 434 sbc only 7800 rpm, .875 int .860 exh cam, and built to order heads when we done a test. Now, I put the f3-121 on with the blow through IRD carb on the same heads, cam, still on e85, and the PPE woke up and beat up on the Edelbrock and Brodix pretty damn good in ho and torque. Just my experience. No I won't say who the heads come from other than east coat company.
What heat range of spark plug was you using in the 406sbc
How do the dual planes respond to porting and taller spacers?
If it were on a full race 434 making north of 750. The hold would shine. manifolds are toucy when they are high. Many times I used a std single plane over a dual plane and lost ET. I also have had either no gains or big gains with header size. As you know it's all about bout the combo
The Hulk would Shine on a 440ci SBC at 8500. URE's typical engine build are always upper rpm builds leading me to believe that is why the Hulk is designed the way it is, i think Chris probably noticed a need for a manifold like it for the customer that needs or wants a cast manifold . A lot of URE's engine builds have Marcella Billet Intakes on them but that comes with a $$$$ cost. 99% of what comes out of URE's Shop doors is a Big cubic inch Higher RPM engine.
perhaps its a velocity issue not volume
Have you ever noticed a difference on a single plane manifold with a 2" spacer plate.
PS. Didnt i hear you say that a two barrel wouldnt work on the 2925 over the 2975! Im very dialed but i just ended up wt a 2925! So you have a book for me! I just need to figure out how to get one? If they not on ebay i have no luck😢
It’s on my online store
@@WeingartnerRacing on google?
It seems to me that the plenum volume on the Hulk may be too large for the engine being tested compared to the smaller volume on the Edelbrock manifolds. I'm thinking on a 427 cubic inch or larger with larger cylinder heads the Hulk would shine. Just an idea, Eric. Trust me, I'm no expert and I'm not telling you anything. I'm just giving my thoughts. Keep on testing, brother.
Hulk manifold is way to big for 600hp
Could reversion have anything to do with it?
🤔 you think that the hulk intake is just too big and killed velocity? I wonder if you cut the intake down to the same height as the Edelbrock , and then retested it? Looks like there's plenty of meat to cut it and retap it .
make a few graphs of the air and fuel used by the manifolds...save of course the error numbers of last manifold...disproves them fellers that say an engine is just an air pump...used more fuel and more air but made less hp and tq!
An engine is a glorified compressor. It compresses air. Air has many qualities. One being water. Water expands 1000 times turning to steam. Overall, there are gasses at "X" value. These gasses are also at "X" temperature. When gasses are compressed the temperature is additive. 10:1 is 900 degrees with 1 bar at 90 degrees. Add and ignite fuel and we significantly increase temperature and thereby pressure. Pressure peaks can reach destructive range. Calculating the variables mechanically and then fuel specifics, there is much to account for. Wait, did you say boost! :-) Lots more calculations. Then the driveline needs to be calibrated for the increased loading. Nothing exists in a vacuum.
Could the ignition timing have been off with the Hulk???
No it’s on a crank trigger so changing manifold doesn’t affect it.
I think the tall manifold is probably for a motor that turn past 90000
The Volumetric Efficacies numbers look BAD the best was 107% @ low rpm and dropping to 96% @ high rpm's where it should be closer to 120+%. Slow ports with no energy low torque ?
This isn’t a max effort engine. Those numbers are actually good max effort and rpm might get 120 but not a basic build. The ports are not slow. When it had smaller port heads on it had worse ve.
I think Bigger Plenum and runners on an Intake, are dictated by RPM and CFM of cylinder head.
Something just seems way off for that result. Looking at Chris' intake it seems to have all the right aspects of a well designed intake. Potentially something in the carb is not working with the intake. If a tapered 4 hole like a HVH was trialled and it responded, then that is the first sign that the carb needs some attention or the signal side. There's so many variables with this stuff it can catch you out.
It’s more simple than that that manifold was designed to make well over 800hp its way to much of a manifold for a pissy 650hp deal it wants head that flow a fair bit over 350cfm and big cubes or huge RPM..
Old. Style. Victor jr. Has. Always. Made. More. Power. From. 1970 s. To. Date. Been. Racin. 30. Yrs. Just. My. Thought. Thanks. Eric. For. Your. Hard. Work. Superman. Porter
Only idiots "get upset" - the smart folks think "that's interesting, let's figure out what's happening".
People still ask about cast iron heads? Even I got the hint after the first video saying you don’t port them.
Probably if some are just dead set on cast iron, just buy the Motown 220 as cast, or 227 CNC Motown cast iron heads from World products. Then send them to Eric and have them flowed. If you are not happy with them, clean them up, open them up and send that back to be flowed again, see if it’s better.
Probably what I would like to do.
I like the numbers from the promaxx heads and victor jr. Tests. If anything has convinced me going to aluminum heads, is these tests.
I know you had a video of a set of Dart 220 SHP heads and Dart 230 pro 1 heads. But these darts were aluminum not cast iron.
But I do not think you have flowed the cast iron World Products Motown 220 heads.
He had my Motown 220 head but it wasn't stock someone butchered and he didn't share the flow numbers because it wasn't stock that's how bad mine were so I am curious how it the 220 motown flows as cast and then the CNC version to
@@chevyrc3623yeah I would like to see how the stock 220 Motown flow numbers stack up to advertised numbers. I took screen shots of worlds catalog and Darts catalog that are hard to find now.
hulk too much positive delta for the motor if you go big go big with everything
150 shot, retest manifolds...too much to ask?
Sounds like the timing was very low. Just a guess.
36degrees on all tests.
hulk would have made power if the engine rev'd to 11 it just shifts powerband!
Little Brother, have you seen the barrel chested plastic tunnel rams in use today?
These manifolds are effective, but by what comparison? They can be metal if you like.
I remember the F4B fondly. A 302 outrunning a Vette is a pleasure.
Later a Ferarri and a 74 TA with 400HO on the shaker. After leaving them behind the wife asks when did they paint all the solid white lines on the Highway? It took a few for her to realize physics.
I5 is a trail of Dots. At a buck 60 the dots cling together. We outran a TransAm and a new Ferrari 308 GT. TA had Cal plates, 308GT had NY plates, and I was running a 70 Muskrat with Maine plates and 10/32 mudgrips. Really glad they held on. Mini gumball rally. :-) Never do again. LA to SD in one hour.
You keep defending the hulk 23 when you checked everything.. still sucked . Like hurricane you just wrote it off . I think that intake is still better than others . Hulk sucks for this combination simple. $1500 waste for this motor combo. NOT a fluke lol
Clearly not enough motor for a manifold that big.. this thing wants a head flowing upper 300 cfm numbers and high rpm’s and big cube this thing is for 800+hp deals! Nothing wrong with the manifold just gotta have the right combination and the hulk was
Never designed for small hp deals
It lost velocity...
How much total timing are you running.
36degrees
I have a similar issues with a 408 in my race truck. My issues are ambient temperatures in Arizona. This is a Sprintcar engine Sammie Swindell engine guy built. I bought a Progression ignition distributor and run a 850 ATM INNOVATION CARBURETOR and a CarbCheater.com for the street. The distributor helps me with timing curves and AFR the Carb Cheater help my driving.
@@josephverdone7099I have no issues. The afr remains between 12.8-13.0 through the pull.
@WeingartnerRacing my AFR had a afr of 11.8 at 4500 to 5500 rpm then would steady at 12.8 to 13.2 so with the progression distributor I raised the timing at 4500 to 5500 by 1 degree and it when up to 12.5.
I run 36* total.
Dont port Cast Iron heads... maybe it require experience & knowledge, they aren't easy like good flowing Aluminium out of the box.
Expensive equipment with all the Data and no idea....
I use to port cast iron for years. It takes longer and you don’t make as much so I stopped doing it. It takes the same skill.
OK boomer!