I think Warden is EXTREMELY slept on. His gun is crazy and his sustain is also nuts. Play him well, use your pots and cages right, I'd say solid A tier.
he is anti fun yea he is strong but warden is a depressing anti fun hero, bebop is fun hook skill shot send them flying with bomb grab them back to finish its just far more rewarding than warden imo
Honestly the main reason I look at your tier lists is because I disagree with it so much, always value heroes completely differently from me. I don't know if that means I'm wrong or if it's due to playing Bebop which nobody else does. IMO Dynamo, Pocket, Ivy, Yamato are significantly weaker than rated. Talon, McGinnis, Lash, Warden, Seven and Mirage are significantly higher. Vindicta is much worse than Talon.
@@eben6367 Sure. I think he used to be S tier. Then there was a patch with a global CD increase, which hurt heroes like Pocket who rely on abilities the most. He was still S tier though. Then they nerfed his gun falloff range to 16 meters which I believe is the shortest in the game, they nerfed his barrage radius by 50% until T3 upgrade, they made his satchel and affliction respect LoS and they nerfed spirit scaling on affliction. Ok that hurt a lot. Additionally they changed the meta. They removed spirit resist from the low tier items that Pocket was buying because of his base -15% spirit resist and the entire meta became much more spirit based, which means he takes a shitload more damage AND people build more spirit resist into the later stages of the game. Spirit meta, spirit resist removed from early items, shortest gun range in the game, worse barrage radius combined wrecked Pocket's laning power and he was already lacking a bit in scaling into the late game. And then the nail in the coffin, they giganerfed majestic leap which was core on Pocket and more important for him than any other hero. He's no longer S tier after all this. A tier? Probably, I don't think he's dropped to B. It says something that even Eido, generally regarded as the best Pocket in the game dropped the hero in favor of Lash and Paradox in ranked. Even before Majestic nerf.
@@kphd9 Elo? You mean rank? Nothing too impressive, Oracle somewhere so a little above the average. However, none of the top player rate Pocket S anymore and haven't for a long time. I think Jonas hates the hero a lot more than usual because Pocket is great against Bebop. He's slippery so hook isn't very scary and he can just dodge bombs with the satchel. Affliction is an annoying but shit ultimate. The same item that counters Bebop's bombs will also remove the entirety of Pocket's ultimate.
@@jm-holm Yeah the leap changes hurt, but his lane is still very strong and he scales fine honestly. New cold front also allows you to farm faster and it gives spirit resist, pair that with spirit armor and his low spirit resist becomes far less noticeable. You can also dodge a lot of spells so he doesnt care to much about the -15%
Of course there is going to be bias? He can best judge his character, and how that character feels verses others. Naturally, you're going to see pocket and Goo rated quite high relative to bebop because they're direct counters to him.
there’s so much bias here it’s crazy. dude still hates pocket bc he’s a bebop player when pocket has been nerfed repeatedly. dude needs to play more characters
I wouldnt say the recent change was a direcf upgrade more of a sidegrade. Way harder to get stacks but now you keep them forever and theyre more effective. Makes the character a lot more fair for both sides
@@sandy90272 also curse and any team that has cc or evade buttons like dyno blink mirage sandstorm mnk ult rtc list goes on bebop is one of the most easiest heroes to counter he isnt a problem like some other heros who when they buy unstoppable cant be countered (haze, lady g)
I'm not trying to be rude, but I don't think you can have a proper perspective on heroes you don't play/refuse to play; these tier lists are always way off the mark.
A lot of this list seems straight up wrong. Pocket got nerfed a lot because of the Majestic Leap change, he's A-tier at best. Dynamo isn't S tier. Grey Talon is absolutely S-tier right now and he is one of the best damage dealers in the game and is so fast he is almost unkillable late. Also Warden continuously gets buffs every patch and he is way better than B-tier right now. This is just what I've noticed at Phantom 4
@@BlueWafer this is basically a tier list of what characters he likes to bomb. Notice how everyone in S tier has a way to reactively reduce bomb damage in their kit. We see you, jonas.
Haze is definitely not B tier. Heros in B tier are there because they are not strong on their own. Any hero that is strong enough to force you to buy a counter item is the definition of A or S. Haze's ult is basically just an aloe second gun of hers. Since her ult doesn't increase her fire rate, yes it buffs damage a bit but in reality the second target and what that means for ricochet is what makes it so powerful. That also means that all you have to do on Haze to make her ult melt is make your left click melt. As a Haze main, I destroy people in seconds with or without my ult, ult just does it a bit faster and I am safer in it. Dynamo has the strongest CC ult in the game but Haze has the strong DPS ult in the game as well. I have stolen my share of rejuvs with it by popping it as the jewel drops and any metals skins are gone by the time you can punch but my ult is still going, if anyone is even around anymore. Seriously, a well played Haze who knows how to ambush can swing entire matches by wiping 4 people in 3 seconds with her ult and then pushing base. No other hero can do that and that is why she is obviously A or S.
This exactly. I cannot count how many times a haze has end our game. In the end game she just needs to ult once and she can easily take away 2 people before they know how to react. Team up with dynamo and it’s just simply gg
Eh she’s def not s tier, return fire and metal skin aren’t just built for haze either they’re just good items in general, the los nerf on her ult hurt a lot, movement tech just gets u out of her ult unless she has someone cc for her
I think a lot of your takes on your tier lists are from almost exclusively a Bebop players' perspective. He's a tank and eats damage. People that you low rank are way stronger than you give them credit for and vice versa.
The big nerf to geist and also ball seven build is mystic reverb only applies slow to one target now. So the teamwide slow builds got nuked. Shes still good cause of innate curse on her kit but that was a big nerf.
I love these tier lists, because even if I don't agree with 100% of the picks, it is always great to hear your reasoning and perspective. A lot of times it makes me re evaluate heroes I play or even figuring out what the meta is from someone who probably has 4x the hours I do in the game. Keep the great content up!
Man, I'm so excited about Deadlock. I've always liked League and Dota, but this is the MOBA that really speaks to me. I am so excited for this game to continue development, and I'm so excited for its eventual full release. This will be the first MOBA I like enough to learn and practice to get the highest rank in ranked. I hope you'll be playing and making content for Deadlock for a long time! (As long as you are still enjoying it, of course)
Hi Jonas, What do you think of adding timestamps on the video for each hero? would be nice to be able so skip through to certain heroes. Otherwise great video, keep em coming
*can't AS CONSISTENTLY one shot combo people mid game while grabbing them from a full lane away with little counter play aside from itemizing against him directly* (not even with ult taken into account) "D Tier." Yeah okay...
Yea bebop was so boring to play for me lmao lurk hook bomb echo uppercut bomb spray ult. The way stacks were built was so damn stupid losing stacks on death was a good nerf for him, bebeops been playing way too easily with no regard to death, (oh btw use that combo kill one or two in a 1v6 then after death have souls rebirth pop and do again) 😂
Thanks Jonas, your concern and well-thought for Bebop bomb should be have hit the right spot and Valve listened. Your suggestion brought Bebop bomb came back to the fun game play again. Thank to you.❤
Honestly the Shiv Nerfs really didn't affect the Melee Shiv build (The problem they're trying to solve). It's all the damage boosting items that are the real problem. They can revert those changes and nerf some of the items and it will achieve the desired effect much better.
On the deadlock tracker heroes page they say: Deadlock Heroes Winrates (only from high-ranked matches after 25th October) and abrams has insane winrate
Real, they simply dont scale at all late game although theyre pretty solid early game. Tragically early game leads are nerfed every patch, like the recent urn changes giving the losing team a significantly easier urn if walkers are still up.
you are right, the majestic leap 45 seconds and all the nerfs he has been receiving from the beginning basically killed him you can easily counter pick him with curse remover and silence but still a tier A hero
It is because pre nerf he was able to hit you through walls with Suitcase, Barrage, and ult? but now they've fixed it to work like most other skills...
gray talon: "having an ult that guarantees you the rejuv is so strong" infernus: "ult is bad" jonas, as the president of the infernus club, one day you WILL come to say infernus ult is good in a video... 😎👉🔥🔥
@@gabecastillo1634 yeah i think jonas just played him a bit and would just run around and try to ult and people would get away, its a very good annoying ult as you said if used properly
imma be honest Yamato is c tier b tier if your a one trick. as a Yamato one trick, silencer is a huge counter yes you can play around it but not being able to punch while grapple is a huge nerf. It also has TERRIBLE matchups like so bad. Pocket has a suit case that he can dodge your 1 with , viscous can cube it , ivy can statue it , shiv if u slice when u get grappled u win the trade every time and mirage can tornado when u grapple and also win the trade. Lady geist gets free silencer suck and paradox get a silencer wall, mc ginnis can out sustain your damage. Warden wins the trade EVERY time even if they ult when u grapple them. The list keeps going but those are the main the main reasons why i think he is a pretty shit character.
These changes to Bebop are really good. It was ridiculous how OP Bebop could get before when they farmed my teammates. Despite being able to keep up in souls, I stood no chance because Bebop's bombs were just OP when stacked.
I will tell you a tale of ranked 1) i pick haze -->always get her when want her in ranked.Wierd. in normal games, never get her. 2) enemy buys return fire in first 3k ->???? 3) play spirit haze --->i win anyways, giggle at seeing multiple return fires and metal skins Neato Next game 1)i play pre buff vindicta -> melee vindicta wins lane 2) ally plays haze ->enemy builds return fire in first 3k 3)they play classic haze -> get absolutely wrecked. I think i would even put haze in D tier for "people dont read enemy items and misplay her". Like B is an appropriate rank if played well i think, but playing around returnfore/metal skin constantly is absolutely a nightmare if you dont rotate to at LEAST a hybrid haze
As a Mo and Krill main, I appreciate the small buffs every patch. His kit pretty much requires you to play on top of enemy players, and laning against enemies that often have very brutal counters made having 2 headshot hitboxes kind of overkill. I would consider them a well balanced hero, since theres really nothing in his kit thats all that crazy, and its easier to punish him for how he needs to be played than other characters. Probably still A tier in my opinion, not S tier.
CAN THEY CHANGE SEVENS HEAD HITBOX? Also The 0.5m nerf on Sevens ball makes it so you can't hit all 3 creeps anymore most the time and yeah as a Seven main hls Ult feels entirely useless. Even if you get unstoppable and stuff the overall dps just isn't there anymore
Why is pocket in S tier? Affliction does like 400 damage, the majestic change makes hitting barrages and affliction so hard and the late game damage scaling is not good and even mid game damage is not that good.
A big reason Geist is more nerfed than what's there on the patch notes is that mystic reverb/escalating exposure got nerfed. But the biggest change was the magic resist added to creep waves now keeps her from farming at a distance while behind. She needs to commit hard to clear waves now, which is risky on a hero with such low stamina and base movespeed Still a decent hero while ahead, but no better than low B
Mirage is just such a solid hero in overall gameplay, tanky, steals max HP, tp is always useful, gun deals excellent damage, tornado has just great utility overall, etc.
this list is genuinely horrible: 1. so many placements dont follow win rate trends and are justified by his own experience with individuals that play them 2. his bebop placement was justified by "well if you play the off meta build (like me) he's bad". this is literally true for any character and he even admitted if you played a gun build he would be higher. he also justified his placement with the term "unfun", which is irrelevant to a heroes ranking. 3. it doesnt follow a bell curve, you can make a justification that any character could be A or B because they have abilities that are good in certain situations. additionally, he had to make A and A- because there is a mental block to putting a character in C tier because: 1. he thinks it implies they're "bad", when it really just means in more situations than not they are less effective 2. it puts them closer to bebop 4. often characters were given higher rankings because of their ability to counter bebop, showing his bias as a one-trick 5. he needs to be more specific on his criteria: heroes are stronger at different levels, in comp, or in tournaments. is this overall or just in his rank? its obvious his bias is a huge factor in this list, but if lower ranks experience a character to be oppressive while they're an easier counter at a higher level (haze for example), how should this influence her ranking? the majority see her as S or A but he experiences her as B, this is obviously an issue. the same goes for dynamo but in reverse: he is super strong in high ranks with coordinated teams, but is basically a joke in low ranks. if you want a good idea of hero rankings, community rankings are likely much more accurate. the one trick bebop is yet to produce a viable list.
Not to be rude but what did you expect really? You watched a Bebop player expressing his opinion on the heroes and their matchups with his main and well, you got exactly that! I mean, sure I do agree with some of the points from your list. This is not the most unbiased tierlist I've seen, not by a long shot. But we should all take this type of videos with a grain of salt because at the end of the day this is just Jonas' opinion from his experience playing the pool of heroes he enjoys playing, not a perfectly crafted tierlist based on character's win and pickrate, right?
You know that valve has halted all stat tracking by third party websites right? Every winrate list you see on sites like tracklock and mobalytics are from September. I really hope you're not following the lists where Seven has a 59% winrate because that hasn't been the case for a while. I agree that this list isn't perfect and has some solid bias but at least he's making his list for the right patch.
I don't disagree that it's a bad list, but win rates are also not a good way to justify a tier list. In the past in LoL, Akali was the single most overpowered character in the game yet she had the lowest win rate due to a lot of people not being able to play her to a high enough level.
@@cleer9505 yes i saw that they stopped allowing tracking a while ago and you’re right win rates aren’t a viable option then, i was just remembering when i did that a while ago.
I feel like the issue of bomb bebop is that it forces you to itemize around him even if they are bad. My last game against a bomb bebop he ended the game 15k+ should be behind everyone else. Yet he could still one shot anyone in the game. Because of this I needed to buy debug remover in a position where they had a fed haze and wraith. A build should never be able to one shot when there is that big of a soul difference. (BTW he ended the game with 23k souls).
Great content Jonas, however few points which I could see others agree on. Pocket should not be there in Tier S or even close. Lost Barrage in lane phase, lost shotgun range, lost Los while other char has los. Cant feed pocket and if you do and he ulti just buy debuff remover and your set. Overall this character based on my opinion should be at Tier B or Tier A- at low Elo.
Wouldn't it be easier to just move your lines down into B and C respectively, instead of adding an A- tier? It doesn't take away from their ranking. It's just showing how they stack compared to each other. Either way, keep up the good work!
You talk about "lower elo." I don't think there's a lower elo right now. I'm a noob always getting matched with the sweatiest players. I'm 4-12 in my last 16, with most losses being totally lopsided.
There is 100%. Those players might be going hard trying to kill you but they have no idea what to do besides pvp so they lose 70% of their games as well.
Bebop got the sidegrade but the timerange is way to big, 12 seconds is insane when you can very easily get his bombs up faster than that, should be 3 like everyone elses buffer
My only issue with the BeeBop change as edited in, is the fact that he has a 12 second window to still get a stack. That just feels absolutely way to long. Even Jonas recommend this change and says 3sec in the video. I think 5 is the max, I'm not sure what grey talons ult window is for stacks but I know it isn't 12 seconds. If anything they should swap that, I'd be more ok with Grey Talons having 12 seconds since it's an ult and BeeBops is a basic ability with a much lower CD.
The way it is right now, it feels like you are guaranteed to gain a stack for every kill you participate in, which given the measly 5% damage increase (ignoring the spirit power dmg scaling) doesn't seem to be too strong compared to what damage potential he used to have.
I think the goal is to give a stack for every kill you participate in. Given average kill participation, this means he will always have a lower number of stacks than the previous method of acquiring stacks (by a lot). That's why they increased the % gain to 5 and increased the base spirit scaling of the bombs. This build will still be beebop's worst build and one of the worst builds in the game. There is a TON of counterplay opportunity to the degree that this build is not really relevant competitively, but will hopefully at least be playable enough to be fun again.
In my games haze always farms waaaay past the point that mettle skin and return fire actually do enough. Maybe a lower Elo issue and we should be able to win before then, but she still feels very oppressive.
I solo queue with Dynamo and find him REALLY fun. My build has a good landing phase then I IMMEDIATELY build Inhibitor and quicksilver reload and I crack heads.
It's weird seeing Infernus still so high on this tier list, because ever since the lifesteal nerfs, he felt really underwhelming for me. His early laning doesn't feel fun and he only ever gets to pop off lategame, at which point others can deal with him much easier.
interesting to see differing opinions based on what people play the most. Ivy is by far my most played with hundreds of games and i think putting her S tier is ludicrous. you mention that she is good at a wide range of things but i think thats actually her problem. jack of all trades, master of none. there was a very short window where her spirit build was extremely strong but it got nerfed within days. now she excels at basically nothing except for being able to quickly engage or disengage large distances with ult and is heavily reliant on communication. id put her at c tier MAYBE b tier at best but thats reaching.
i have been playing bebop more since patch to see if i notice the difference and i very slightly do because even at 100stacks, you die, lose 20, hook 4 times with double bomb and will have them back or have more if multiple enemies are hit.
Yea just wanted to let you know that I’m still jorkin it ever since the last upload. Gonna keep going this whole video too. On a separate note could you make the face cam bigger ok thanks
Jones I've been following quite a lot of your content, smeefus, deathys, and it is good. But you clearly if it comes to tierlists have extreeeme bias and they are almost always off the mark, all the ones I've watched were 80% inaccurately placed. I don't mean this from a hostile perspective but I play with my friend in Ascendant lobbies when we dont rank, and in ranked he is Ascendant, and deathys and smeefus lists are always almost identical and perfectly placed, +- certain experiences and maybe 1 hero where one has not fully did the research, observed lobbies. Even on statistical sites like tracklock it contradicts most of your choices. McGinnis is absolutely a mad house right now and even A or A- is just off Geist picked up reallyyyy hard with people finally wisening up with going way more gun and only crucial and the most heavy hitting spirit items an reach WRAITH is without a doubt the strongest hero in the game arguably on the throne with McGinnis. She has insane mobility, she can get away with murder, and with the right build where your cards hit hard but you have insane clipsizes and firerate - ANYONE dies in her ult, and the entire team profits from her ult. Getting a freepick with her is one of the easiest thing to do and she splitpushes beyond oblivion. The fact she hasn't gotten nerfed is CRAZY to me. There are many more I would place differently. Please keep doing content, but if you insist on doing tier lists, please leave bias out the door and look at the performing facts and statistical contributions and strengths in specific areas. Your s Tier is the only one I agree with while I would put Kelvin in there (he has in Eternus the highest winrate by 3%) Mirage, wraith and low S Geist. Infernus if you genuinely put the work in. And Talon right now is busted.
As a Haze main I would argue that yes she can be countered but so can almost anyone. If you play around her strengths then shes very strong. If you let your team engage while you swing around and silence ult from behind, its a easy team wipe. Shes also very good at pushing objectives, running urn and ganking. I use Fleetfoot and with it and steath I can get around the map faster than anyone other than kelvin with fleetfoot. I am pretty sure im faster than even ivy. I'll have to see how she does at higher ranks as I level up. This ranking system is kinda a joke tbh, would be nice to know how its calculated because it def has not much to do with winning. I won 6 ranked in a row last night alone. or 12-2 yesterday total. but yet im still low ranked LOL we'll have to see what the next rank they give me is before i can really speak on if its a joke or not. i notice all you streamers get higher ranks, makes me wonder if they handed them to you because i watch and sure you guys are good but not great. I still love your videos. keep it up
You didn't need to say you were low ranked... it was obvious by your first couple of sentences. Haze is only good in low ranks... I'd MUCH rather see a haze on the enemy team than most other characters. btw your rank only updates once a week, doesn't matter how many games you win or lose, the actual ranking only changes once a week
@@evilme73 thats fair, we'll have to wait and see. as we all know, its ever changing and if you play the flavor of the month rather than mastery of a hero you are just hurting yourself imo. I am okay with it. I have I have 216 matches played, 111 wins while many of those losses learning the game. I win closer to 70% of my matches right now as Haze. 58 games played, 33 wins and you gotta assume I was learning how to play her the first 10 matches or so. anyway, it'll be interesting getting to to work at higher ranks. I do admit, early and mid is not where she shines. late-mid and late game shes a beast. you absolutely gotta be more tactical with her though, but from my experience most of my wins is because of a team wipe I set up. or a split push that forces the team to come back and deal with me which stops their push. not to mention it takes more than 1 person to kill me, i think mo is the only one that can kill me in a 1v1, the others that would win, i just dagger and run away :D mo and that infinite stun is ridiculous. what rank are you commenting from anyway?
@@Grimfest14 in ranked phan-asc, in casuals with friends its ~archon depending who is online. It is like night and day how effective haze is in each. People just don't give the same opportunities for fat ults higher up (especially with the ricochet range rduction). The item culmination of all the changes over the last month or so have really hurt her.
I will be reworking my Bebop builds A LOT in a few hours on stream if you want to join me! twitch.tv/averagejonas
I'm hyped as hell to read through your build changes after work today ❤
back in valorant p[lease !!!!!!!
Hi Jonas. A very minor detail. Could you maybe say the tier when you place them? I listen to your tier lists while doing chores in the house :p
Agreed
I second this
Oh sorry! Will do that!!
Yea exactly this, these sort of videos don’t require you to actually watch it, just listen to it.
Awesome Jonas! I usually like messin around in sandbox while your video plays so it would be helpful for sure.
Mcginnis B tier, you're smoking that goofy pack brotha!
I think Warden is EXTREMELY slept on. His gun is crazy and his sustain is also nuts. Play him well, use your pots and cages right, I'd say solid A tier.
Arguably the best gun in the game for raw damage
Agreed, been playing warden a lot and the new unstoppable change on the ult startup is an insane sleeper buff
he is anti fun yea he is strong but warden is a depressing anti fun hero, bebop is fun hook skill shot send them flying with bomb grab them back to finish its just far more rewarding than warden imo
his stun is literally worse than seven in every way and his gun is the worst in the game for laning and headshots
Honestly the main reason I look at your tier lists is because I disagree with it so much, always value heroes completely differently from me.
I don't know if that means I'm wrong or if it's due to playing Bebop which nobody else does.
IMO Dynamo, Pocket, Ivy, Yamato are significantly weaker than rated. Talon, McGinnis, Lash, Warden, Seven and Mirage are significantly higher. Vindicta is much worse than Talon.
As someone who plays pocket, he is an easy S. He has very high impact every game. Would love to know your reasoning as to why he is weaker
what elo are you?
@@eben6367 Sure. I think he used to be S tier. Then there was a patch with a global CD increase, which hurt heroes like Pocket who rely on abilities the most. He was still S tier though.
Then they nerfed his gun falloff range to 16 meters which I believe is the shortest in the game, they nerfed his barrage radius by 50% until T3 upgrade, they made his satchel and affliction respect LoS and they nerfed spirit scaling on affliction.
Ok that hurt a lot.
Additionally they changed the meta. They removed spirit resist from the low tier items that Pocket was buying because of his base -15% spirit resist and the entire meta became much more spirit based, which means he takes a shitload more damage AND people build more spirit resist into the later stages of the game.
Spirit meta, spirit resist removed from early items, shortest gun range in the game, worse barrage radius combined wrecked Pocket's laning power and he was already lacking a bit in scaling into the late game.
And then the nail in the coffin, they giganerfed majestic leap which was core on Pocket and more important for him than any other hero.
He's no longer S tier after all this. A tier? Probably, I don't think he's dropped to B. It says something that even Eido, generally regarded as the best Pocket in the game dropped the hero in favor of Lash and Paradox in ranked. Even before Majestic nerf.
@@kphd9 Elo? You mean rank? Nothing too impressive, Oracle somewhere so a little above the average.
However, none of the top player rate Pocket S anymore and haven't for a long time. I think Jonas hates the hero a lot more than usual because Pocket is great against Bebop. He's slippery so hook isn't very scary and he can just dodge bombs with the satchel.
Affliction is an annoying but shit ultimate. The same item that counters Bebop's bombs will also remove the entirety of Pocket's ultimate.
@@jm-holm Yeah the leap changes hurt, but his lane is still very strong and he scales fine honestly. New cold front also allows you to farm faster and it gives spirit resist, pair that with spirit armor and his low spirit resist becomes far less noticeable. You can also dodge a lot of spells so he doesnt care to much about the -15%
of course the bebop main puts bebop in the bottom, no bias there
He trying to get it reverted again
@@joshuaavila8289he got it changed
You have to be shitter rank to think bebop is a decent character, this tier list isn’t for unranked only casuals
I mean, I dislike Bebop but before the most recent change he was actual garbage tier
Of course there is going to be bias? He can best judge his character, and how that character feels verses others. Naturally, you're going to see pocket and Goo rated quite high relative to bebop because they're direct counters to him.
there’s so much bias here it’s crazy. dude still hates pocket bc he’s a bebop player when pocket has been nerfed repeatedly. dude needs to play more characters
I love how everytime bebop players cry the devs immediately reverse all nerfs. Have fun whining yall im over it
I wouldnt say the recent change was a direcf upgrade more of a sidegrade. Way harder to get stacks but now you keep them forever and theyre more effective. Makes the character a lot more fair for both sides
literally just purchase debuff remover...
@@CyberBnnnymost hate to deviate from created builds that others have put together for them 🫡
@@CyberBnnny damn u know I have actually never heard anyone say that before? (I have). Also missed the point but w/e
@@sandy90272 also curse and any team that has cc or evade buttons like dyno blink mirage sandstorm mnk ult rtc list goes on bebop is one of the most easiest heroes to counter he isnt a problem like some other heros who when they buy unstoppable cant be countered (haze, lady g)
I'm not trying to be rude, but I don't think you can have a proper perspective on heroes you don't play/refuse to play; these tier lists are always way off the mark.
Hurr durr bebop hook haha double bomb brrr 🤤
How would you change the tier list?
@@Luke_lash needs to be s tier.
@@alexispadilla5132lash is s tier in a good team c tier if you are trying to carry a bunch of animals
@@trantim2860so.. any hero when theyre forced to carry a bad team??
A lot of this list seems straight up wrong. Pocket got nerfed a lot because of the Majestic Leap change, he's A-tier at best. Dynamo isn't S tier. Grey Talon is absolutely S-tier right now and he is one of the best damage dealers in the game and is so fast he is almost unkillable late. Also Warden continuously gets buffs every patch and he is way better than B-tier right now. This is just what I've noticed at Phantom 4
You have to take this video with a grain of salt, it's made by a bebop main
@@BlueWafer this is basically a tier list of what characters he likes to bomb. Notice how everyone in S tier has a way to reactively reduce bomb damage in their kit. We see you, jonas.
THANK YOU
Might be the worst tier list i've ever seen.
Haze is definitely not B tier.
Heros in B tier are there because they are not strong on their own. Any hero that is strong enough to force you to buy a counter item is the definition of A or S.
Haze's ult is basically just an aloe second gun of hers. Since her ult doesn't increase her fire rate, yes it buffs damage a bit but in reality the second target and what that means for ricochet is what makes it so powerful. That also means that all you have to do on Haze to make her ult melt is make your left click melt. As a Haze main, I destroy people in seconds with or without my ult, ult just does it a bit faster and I am safer in it.
Dynamo has the strongest CC ult in the game but Haze has the strong DPS ult in the game as well. I have stolen my share of rejuvs with it by popping it as the jewel drops and any metals skins are gone by the time you can punch but my ult is still going, if anyone is even around anymore.
Seriously, a well played Haze who knows how to ambush can swing entire matches by wiping 4 people in 3 seconds with her ult and then pushing base. No other hero can do that and that is why she is obviously A or S.
This exactly. I cannot count how many times a haze has end our game. In the end game she just needs to ult once and she can easily take away 2 people before they know how to react.
Team up with dynamo and it’s just simply gg
Unranked Andy self report
Eh she’s def not s tier, return fire and metal skin aren’t just built for haze either they’re just good items in general, the los nerf on her ult hurt a lot, movement tech just gets u out of her ult unless she has someone cc for her
This guy is archon or below 100%. Haze sucks at high level... real bad.
@@evilme73 haze isn’t even that good in archon lol I ranked high archon last week, I’m hoping for Oracle tomorrow
I think a lot of your takes on your tier lists are from almost exclusively a Bebop players' perspective. He's a tank and eats damage. People that you low rank are way stronger than you give them credit for and vice versa.
The big nerf to geist and also ball seven build is mystic reverb only applies slow to one target now. So the teamwide slow builds got nuked. Shes still good cause of innate curse on her kit but that was a big nerf.
I love these tier lists, because even if I don't agree with 100% of the picks, it is always great to hear your reasoning and perspective. A lot of times it makes me re evaluate heroes I play or even figuring out what the meta is from someone who probably has 4x the hours I do in the game. Keep the great content up!
Oh boy, can't wait to listen to this at work, and hear which tier theyre going in! :D
you get to listen to TH-cam at work and you’re still this entitled lol
Skill issue. Simple as.
Man, I'm so excited about Deadlock. I've always liked League and Dota, but this is the MOBA that really speaks to me. I am so excited for this game to continue development, and I'm so excited for its eventual full release. This will be the first MOBA I like enough to learn and practice to get the highest rank in ranked.
I hope you'll be playing and making content for Deadlock for a long time! (As long as you are still enjoying it, of course)
Hi Jonas, What do you think of adding timestamps on the video for each hero? would be nice to be able so skip through to certain heroes. Otherwise great video, keep em coming
*can't AS CONSISTENTLY one shot combo people mid game while grabbing them from a full lane away with little counter play aside from itemizing against him directly* (not even with ult taken into account)
"D Tier."
Yeah okay...
Yea bebop was so boring to play for me lmao lurk hook bomb echo uppercut bomb spray ult. The way stacks were built was so damn stupid losing stacks on death was a good nerf for him, bebeops been playing way too easily with no regard to death, (oh btw use that combo kill one or two in a 1v6 then after death have souls rebirth pop and do again) 😂
This is a bad tierlist that is blatantly ignorant please do not pay attention to this
fr
Thanks Jonas, your concern and well-thought for Bebop bomb should be have hit the right spot and Valve listened. Your suggestion brought Bebop bomb came back to the fun game play again. Thank to you.❤
Honestly the Shiv Nerfs really didn't affect the Melee Shiv build (The problem they're trying to solve). It's all the damage boosting items that are the real problem. They can revert those changes and nerf some of the items and it will achieve the desired effect much better.
The champ i play is trash, and everything else is good basically.
Salt is real
Glad to see your back on your feat Jonas i have not watched your video in a long time.
On the deadlock tracker heroes page they say: Deadlock Heroes Winrates (only from high-ranked matches after 25th October)
and abrams has insane winrate
A great Abrams is to be feared man can single handedly take the games away anytime
in Ascendant have Eternus players every other game, can confirm abrams is still pdf character in high elo
@@Slowpoke519 did you even read what I wrote?
i love pocket but they are not s tier anymore IMO
Real, they simply dont scale at all late game although theyre pretty solid early game. Tragically early game leads are nerfed every patch, like the recent urn changes giving the losing team a significantly easier urn if walkers are still up.
you are right, the majestic leap 45 seconds and all the nerfs he has been receiving from the beginning basically killed him
you can easily counter pick him with curse remover and silence but still a tier A hero
THANK YOU
It is because pre nerf he was able to hit you through walls with Suitcase, Barrage, and ult? but now they've fixed it to work like most other skills...
Bebop got a nice change love to see it
gray talon: "having an ult that guarantees you the rejuv is so strong"
infernus: "ult is bad"
jonas, as the president of the infernus club, one day you WILL come to say infernus ult is good in a video... 😎👉🔥🔥
I lowkey hate infernus ult more than dynamos for rejuv just because u don’t get to cc him out of it lol
@@gabecastillo1634 yeah i think jonas just played him a bit and would just run around and try to ult and people would get away, its a very good annoying ult as you said if used properly
imma be honest Yamato is c tier b tier if your a one trick. as a Yamato one trick, silencer is a huge counter yes you can play around it but not being able to punch while grapple is a huge nerf. It also has TERRIBLE matchups like so bad. Pocket has a suit case that he can dodge your 1 with , viscous can cube it , ivy can statue it , shiv if u slice when u get grappled u win the trade every time and mirage can tornado when u grapple and also win the trade. Lady geist gets free silencer suck and paradox get a silencer wall, mc ginnis can out sustain your damage. Warden wins the trade EVERY time even if they ult when u grapple them. The list keeps going but those are the main the main reasons why i think he is a pretty shit character.
These changes to Bebop are really good. It was ridiculous how OP Bebop could get before when they farmed my teammates. Despite being able to keep up in souls, I stood no chance because Bebop's bombs were just OP when stacked.
I will tell you a tale of ranked
1) i pick haze
-->always get her when want her in ranked.Wierd. in normal games, never get her.
2) enemy buys return fire in first 3k
->????
3) play spirit haze
--->i win anyways, giggle at seeing multiple return fires and metal skins
Neato
Next game
1)i play pre buff vindicta
-> melee vindicta wins lane
2) ally plays haze
->enemy builds return fire in first 3k
3)they play classic haze
-> get absolutely wrecked.
I think i would even put haze in D tier for "people dont read enemy items and misplay her". Like B is an appropriate rank if played well i think, but playing around returnfore/metal skin constantly is absolutely a nightmare if you dont rotate to at LEAST a hybrid haze
She should always be built hybrid, her spirit scaling for her dagger is insane anyway plus her ult duration
i think warden is much better despite the majestic leap change on account of his 3 now eating 2 bars of stamina instead of 1
As a Mo and Krill main, I appreciate the small buffs every patch. His kit pretty much requires you to play on top of enemy players, and laning against enemies that often have very brutal counters made having 2 headshot hitboxes kind of overkill. I would consider them a well balanced hero, since theres really nothing in his kit thats all that crazy, and its easier to punish him for how he needs to be played than other characters. Probably still A tier in my opinion, not S tier.
And with this tier list I’m finally sure, that you do not understand the game almost at all XD
CAN THEY CHANGE SEVENS HEAD HITBOX?
Also The 0.5m nerf on Sevens ball makes it so you can't hit all 3 creeps anymore most the time and yeah as a Seven main hls Ult feels entirely useless.
Even if you get unstoppable and stuff the overall dps just isn't there anymore
Seven has build in headshot resistance so i doubt they will change their hitbox first
@teethpastaa Fair. Either way his hat shouldn't be his head lmfao
Why is pocket in S tier? Affliction does like 400 damage, the majestic change makes hitting barrages and affliction so hard and the late game damage scaling is not good and even mid game damage is not that good.
This guy is extremely biased, he’s a bebop player through and through
I figured it out. Everyone in S-tier has a way to remove bombs.
@@lanttiks6748 LMAO TRUE
Pocket is rly strong. I've 1v6'd with them thanks to the heal reduce from ult and gun buffs from tp cloak and suitcase barrage
A big reason Geist is more nerfed than what's there on the patch notes is that mystic reverb/escalating exposure got nerfed. But the biggest change was the magic resist added to creep waves now keeps her from farming at a distance while behind.
She needs to commit hard to clear waves now, which is risky on a hero with such low stamina and base movespeed
Still a decent hero while ahead, but no better than low B
Jonas u are smoking something strong with B tier mcginny
Lash is love lash is life lash is S tier and nobody can change my mind
Mirage is just such a solid hero in overall gameplay, tanky, steals max HP, tp is always useful, gun deals excellent damage, tornado has just great utility overall, etc.
this list is genuinely horrible:
1. so many placements dont follow win rate trends and are justified by his own experience with individuals that play them
2. his bebop placement was justified by "well if you play the off meta build (like me) he's bad". this is literally true for any character and he even admitted if you played a gun build he would be higher. he also justified his placement with the term "unfun", which is irrelevant to a heroes ranking.
3. it doesnt follow a bell curve, you can make a justification that any character could be A or B because they have abilities that are good in certain situations. additionally, he had to make A and A- because there is a mental block to putting a character in C tier because: 1. he thinks it implies they're "bad", when it really just means in more situations than not they are less effective 2. it puts them closer to bebop
4. often characters were given higher rankings because of their ability to counter bebop, showing his bias as a one-trick
5. he needs to be more specific on his criteria: heroes are stronger at different levels, in comp, or in tournaments. is this overall or just in his rank? its obvious his bias is a huge factor in this list, but if lower ranks experience a character to be oppressive while they're an easier counter at a higher level (haze for example), how should this influence her ranking? the majority see her as S or A but he experiences her as B, this is obviously an issue. the same goes for dynamo but in reverse: he is super strong in high ranks with coordinated teams, but is basically a joke in low ranks.
if you want a good idea of hero rankings, community rankings are likely much more accurate. the one trick bebop is yet to produce a viable list.
Not to be rude but what did you expect really? You watched a Bebop player expressing his opinion on the heroes and their matchups with his main and well, you got exactly that!
I mean, sure I do agree with some of the points from your list. This is not the most unbiased tierlist I've seen, not by a long shot. But we should all take this type of videos with a grain of salt because at the end of the day this is just Jonas' opinion from his experience playing the pool of heroes he enjoys playing, not a perfectly crafted tierlist based on character's win and pickrate, right?
It's not that deep brother
You know that valve has halted all stat tracking by third party websites right? Every winrate list you see on sites like tracklock and mobalytics are from September. I really hope you're not following the lists where Seven has a 59% winrate because that hasn't been the case for a while. I agree that this list isn't perfect and has some solid bias but at least he's making his list for the right patch.
I don't disagree that it's a bad list, but win rates are also not a good way to justify a tier list. In the past in LoL, Akali was the single most overpowered character in the game yet she had the lowest win rate due to a lot of people not being able to play her to a high enough level.
@@cleer9505 yes i saw that they stopped allowing tracking a while ago and you’re right win rates aren’t a viable option then, i was just remembering when i did that a while ago.
I feel like the issue of bomb bebop is that it forces you to itemize around him even if they are bad. My last game against a bomb bebop he ended the game 15k+ should be behind everyone else. Yet he could still one shot anyone in the game. Because of this I needed to buy debug remover in a position where they had a fed haze and wraith. A build should never be able to one shot when there is that big of a soul difference. (BTW he ended the game with 23k souls).
bebop is strong the cope is insane
100% agree as someone who’s top .000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001%
avearge joe when tier list: 💸💸💸💸
boohoo...getting stacks on bebop is braindead. Bebop is far from the worst hero...A gunbop can own, and a Ultbop still can destroy a team fight.
*Shiv player*
So the real tier list without the ridiculous double A tiers:
S
A
B
C
D
Great content Jonas, however few points which I could see others agree on. Pocket should not be there in Tier S or even close. Lost Barrage in lane phase, lost shotgun range, lost Los while other char has los. Cant feed pocket and if you do and he ulti just buy debuff remover and your set. Overall this character based on my opinion should be at Tier B or Tier A- at low Elo.
THANK YOU
Wouldn't it be easier to just move your lines down into B and C respectively, instead of adding an A- tier? It doesn't take away from their ranking. It's just showing how they stack compared to each other. Either way, keep up the good work!
Yeah, definitely not remotely accurate
fr
Grey talon is nuts rn, so slept on
I’ve been enjoying max CC bebop with melee and tank items it’s been super fun this patch
You talk about "lower elo." I don't think there's a lower elo right now. I'm a noob always getting matched with the sweatiest players. I'm 4-12 in my last 16, with most losses being totally lopsided.
There is 100%. Those players might be going hard trying to kill you but they have no idea what to do besides pvp so they lose 70% of their games as well.
Bebop got the sidegrade but the timerange is way to big, 12 seconds is insane when you can very easily get his bombs up faster than that, should be 3 like everyone elses buffer
As a grey talon main I approve of this update
paradox buffs are sitting nicely. some QoL stuff now would be good or maybe they will add some new movement to help the more imobile heros
To say mcginnis isn't s tier is wild
I like your solution to bebop. What did they change after the video?
My only issue with the BeeBop change as edited in, is the fact that he has a 12 second window to still get a stack. That just feels absolutely way to long. Even Jonas recommend this change and says 3sec in the video. I think 5 is the max, I'm not sure what grey talons ult window is for stacks but I know it isn't 12 seconds. If anything they should swap that, I'd be more ok with Grey Talons having 12 seconds since it's an ult and BeeBops is a basic ability with a much lower CD.
bebop just loses a lot of stacks if hes punished
I think it's there to give time for the ult to windup and then kill against any enemy who has a semi-reasonable amount of sustain.
The way it is right now, it feels like you are guaranteed to gain a stack for every kill you participate in, which given the measly 5% damage increase (ignoring the spirit power dmg scaling) doesn't seem to be too strong compared to what damage potential he used to have.
I think the goal is to give a stack for every kill you participate in. Given average kill participation, this means he will always have a lower number of stacks than the previous method of acquiring stacks (by a lot). That's why they increased the % gain to 5 and increased the base spirit scaling of the bombs. This build will still be beebop's worst build and one of the worst builds in the game. There is a TON of counterplay opportunity to the degree that this build is not really relevant competitively, but will hopefully at least be playable enough to be fun again.
You cant get eternus with only bebop. Eventually someone will take your hero
Someone said put the two highest pick rate hero’s as non priority and the one you want as high priority and you get it everytime haha
@ wrong the game will 50/50 you and give you a hero you are not good with
In my games haze always farms waaaay past the point that mettle skin and return fire actually do enough. Maybe a lower Elo issue and we should be able to win before then, but she still feels very oppressive.
Grey Talon next to Abrams is criminal 😭
this is such a dumb tier list this has to be a joke
Im just glad playing grey talon is enjoyable again.
I solo queue with Dynamo and find him REALLY fun. My build has a good landing phase then I IMMEDIATELY build Inhibitor and quicksilver reload and I crack heads.
The bebop "It's all over / we are SO back" meme is the reality I live in as a Bebop main. I just want the changes to stop :'(
Then wait for the full release
It's weird seeing Infernus still so high on this tier list, because ever since the lifesteal nerfs, he felt really underwhelming for me. His early laning doesn't feel fun and he only ever gets to pop off lategame, at which point others can deal with him much easier.
Same
Grey talon feels strong right now
you need to rename these to "bebop matchup tierlists" instead of whatever this is
A few i agree, quite a few I disagree but this game is so skill based the worst characters with a weird build can do so much.
interesting to see differing opinions based on what people play the most. Ivy is by far my most played with hundreds of games and i think putting her S tier is ludicrous. you mention that she is good at a wide range of things but i think thats actually her problem. jack of all trades, master of none. there was a very short window where her spirit build was extremely strong but it got nerfed within days. now she excels at basically nothing except for being able to quickly engage or disengage large distances with ult and is heavily reliant on communication. id put her at c tier MAYBE b tier at best but thats reaching.
Bebop is definitely bad but trying to lane against this freak is the worst experience ever.
When he said Cool combo = hitting 1 key macro doing 6 actions. No, it’s should be nerfed
Vindicta feels really powerfull in lane and again in late game. But shes kinda bad at farming and relys on killing people with ult to get souls
i have been playing bebop more since patch to see if i notice the difference and i very slightly do because even at 100stacks, you die, lose 20, hook 4 times with double bomb and will have them back or have more if multiple enemies are hit.
LOL, your update was out of fate before you even released it.
Bebop does not lose stacks on death any more. But acquiring them is much harder
mirage is best solo laner in the game, def slept on just BORING af
Mcginnis not S tier, realy?
also why did you make an A+ and an A- then just completely ignore C? A- is lower than A+, but you know what else is lower? B.... and then C....
I feel like seven deserves a higher spot, he a mid-late game demon
New BeBop changes are GAS
Yea just wanted to let you know that I’m still jorkin it ever since the last upload. Gonna keep going this whole video too.
On a separate note could you make the face cam bigger ok thanks
the kill my shiv
hope new new heros come soon
Seems like they are just trying to purge the shooter aspect from the game and make it into a more typical MOBA. That's the impression I get anyway.
No mention of the tier changes at 26:51 ? Just jumped clip without explanation.
Jones I've been following quite a lot of your content, smeefus, deathys, and it is good.
But you clearly if it comes to tierlists have extreeeme bias and they are almost always off the mark, all the ones I've watched were 80% inaccurately placed. I don't mean this from a hostile perspective but I play with my friend in Ascendant lobbies when we dont rank, and in ranked he is Ascendant, and deathys and smeefus lists are always almost identical and perfectly placed, +- certain experiences and maybe 1 hero where one has not fully did the research, observed lobbies.
Even on statistical sites like tracklock it contradicts most of your choices.
McGinnis is absolutely a mad house right now and even A or A- is just off
Geist picked up reallyyyy hard with people finally wisening up with going way more gun and only crucial and the most heavy hitting spirit items an reach
WRAITH is without a doubt the strongest hero in the game arguably on the throne with McGinnis. She has insane mobility, she can get away with murder, and with the right build where your cards hit hard but you have insane clipsizes and firerate - ANYONE dies in her ult, and the entire team profits from her ult. Getting a freepick with her is one of the easiest thing to do and she splitpushes beyond oblivion. The fact she hasn't gotten nerfed is CRAZY to me.
There are many more I would place differently. Please keep doing content, but if you insist on doing tier lists, please leave bias out the door and look at the performing facts and statistical contributions and strengths in specific areas. Your s Tier is the only one I agree with while I would put Kelvin in there (he has in Eternus the highest winrate by 3%) Mirage, wraith and low S Geist.
Infernus if you genuinely put the work in.
And Talon right now is busted.
bro made an A- instead of just using C lol
They have basically killed the card wraith archetype honestly. It’s so bad now
Gun wraith is fine though, so yea :p
they should make the bebop one like storm spirit passive in dota
Why has no one addressed Kelvin needing to cast beam before casting ice path?!
Wut?
rest in pieces bomb bop :=(
13:45 no way he called him by his true name
these tierlist suck
fr
Timestamps ??
As a Haze main I would argue that yes she can be countered but so can almost anyone. If you play around her strengths then shes very strong. If you let your team engage while you swing around and silence ult from behind, its a easy team wipe. Shes also very good at pushing objectives, running urn and ganking. I use Fleetfoot and with it and steath I can get around the map faster than anyone other than kelvin with fleetfoot. I am pretty sure im faster than even ivy. I'll have to see how she does at higher ranks as I level up. This ranking system is kinda a joke tbh, would be nice to know how its calculated because it def has not much to do with winning. I won 6 ranked in a row last night alone. or 12-2 yesterday total. but yet im still low ranked LOL we'll have to see what the next rank they give me is before i can really speak on if its a joke or not. i notice all you streamers get higher ranks, makes me wonder if they handed them to you because i watch and sure you guys are good but not great. I still love your videos. keep it up
You didn't need to say you were low ranked... it was obvious by your first couple of sentences. Haze is only good in low ranks... I'd MUCH rather see a haze on the enemy team than most other characters.
btw your rank only updates once a week, doesn't matter how many games you win or lose, the actual ranking only changes once a week
@@evilme73 thats fair, we'll have to wait and see. as we all know, its ever changing and if you play the flavor of the month rather than mastery of a hero you are just hurting yourself imo. I am okay with it. I have I have 216 matches played, 111 wins while many of those losses learning the game. I win closer to 70% of my matches right now as Haze. 58 games played, 33 wins and you gotta assume I was learning how to play her the first 10 matches or so. anyway, it'll be interesting getting to to work at higher ranks. I do admit, early and mid is not where she shines. late-mid and late game shes a beast. you absolutely gotta be more tactical with her though, but from my experience most of my wins is because of a team wipe I set up. or a split push that forces the team to come back and deal with me which stops their push. not to mention it takes more than 1 person to kill me, i think mo is the only one that can kill me in a 1v1, the others that would win, i just dagger and run away :D mo and that infinite stun is ridiculous. what rank are you commenting from anyway?
@@Grimfest14 in ranked phan-asc, in casuals with friends its ~archon depending who is online. It is like night and day how effective haze is in each. People just don't give the same opportunities for fat ults higher up (especially with the ricochet range rduction). The item culmination of all the changes over the last month or so have really hurt her.
as a professional bebop hater i hope he stays below F tier, hate from iceland.
Apparently there was another minor patch that even more??
Abrams does more damage than other heros fact
On the abrams change to melee it says time between attacks
Wait, the game has already been patched since this..
bebop bomb stack now work as mo&krill and grey talon at least