Hey besties! Just a couple of things I forgot to say in the video: 1. I should have talked about the racism more in the introduction instead of brushing over it like I did just because I haven’t read the full issue of the comic (again if anyone knows where I can find them, please let me know!). Even though I stand by that Marinette isn’t racist and that whoever wrote that is the one who is, it’s disgusting for it having happened in the first place and I should have said so in the video so I’m sorry for not doing so 2. It is our responsibility to keep this fandom as nice a place as possible, which is what a fandom, a community, is supposed to be. I hope you are all as equally nice in other creator’s comments sections as you are under mine 💖there is no reason to be unkind, and even if it is not returned, love and kindness are never wasted
About Marinette treating her friends badly: the only time I was annoyed at how she treated her friend was with Juleka in Crocoduel. It wasn't nice the way she put Juleka in the middle between her and Luka. But it all blew in her face and she admitted that she was wrong and in the end she still had to face Luka and hopefully made another step in the direction of solving potential conflicts instead of avoiding them so it's all good
I dunno, if my friends literally plotted together to trap me with my ex somewhere I couldn’t walk away from him, I would’ve punched someone. And I would not have been even remotely sorry. I wouldn’t put the blame on Juleka and she’s in an awful position with her own anxieties, but Marinette didn’t deserve that. You don’t have to reconcile with somebody after a messy breakup. Nobody has any right to force someone to patch things up with their ex. Marinette said ‘no.’ That should’ve been the end of it.
@@aileencrain6558 Yeah, but Juleka wasn't the one who did it! How does one go about uninviting her own brother from a party held in their own house(boat)?
thank you!! its always frustrating when marinette does something wrong and everyone hates her for it, but when adrien does something wrong everyone is like oH hE dOeSnT kNoW aNy bEtTeR
@@GerganaZlatkova , it's not just cartoons. The trend has been going on ever since some people started taking Adam's side to blame the whole thing on Eve. The serpent's role is irrelevant to them.
Yessssss I love Marinette soooo freaking much and I'm super frustrated to how people just judge her so quickly even for the smallest little mistake she does. Like C'mon she's a human, a teenager and they can't make her 100% perfect cuz no one is perfect or can be perfect
About people who find Marinette's anxiety annoying. I've heard someone say that the worst haters are the ones who have the hated trait themselves but don't accept it. It's not impossible that those people have undiagnosed anxiety but every time they experience it, say to themselves something like 'Get a grip, you wet rug' Of course they'd extend the same treatment to a character they relate to.
Thank you for addressing the double standard in this show. It's so frustrating when people blame Marinette for something Adrien also exhibits, but they don't address it, or address it to a less degree. It's also disgusting when people say she's a Mary Sue that never makes mistakes and then berates her for making mistake and being human. Also, I partially agree with you on Marinette loving Adrien genuinely. She fell in love with his kindness, consideration, and gentle nature and all that. But reason why I can't fully agree is because I feel that she never really "got to know Adrien" prior to them dating. Whenever Adrien was around her, he was showing his "golden child" side to her, and they never really got to spend too much time together (mostly due to his busy schedule) for her to see his other traits. When they do get spend together, it's not long and Marinette is too busy romantacizing to really get to know him. Only time I can think of where this wasn't the case prior to them dating was during Risk where she was actually having a meaningful conversation with him rather than constantly picturing herself with him.
i agree that she didn't speak to him a great deal, but Marinette has always been around him. she's known after the gum incident of how wonderful he is. i don't think she needs to have a meaningful conversation with him for her to necessarily understand that
For your last point, I feel like oblivio showed that they like who each other truly are. Though they don't remember the events of oblivio so idk if that counts
We need this. People forget that a Mary Sue by definition is a character with no flaws. A person who can get away with murder. Spoilers ahead. 1) Marinette is a klutz 2) She was constantly bullied by Chloe and was seemingly the main target. 3) she was expelled from school. More than once, for something she was framed for. 4) Her friends believe someone they just met over her multiple times 5) She can't talk to guys she likes probably. 6)Adding onto point 2. The bullying literally got to a point where she would initially hate anyone who was "friends" with Chloe, she distanced herself from ever getting close to another boy and finding out all she can about said boy before even attempting to get close, which explains her initial attitude towards Adrien and her stalker behaviour.
Marinette often did bad things especially during the first seasons when it came to Adrien. 1. Used a lucky charm just to make Chloe and Adrien stop slow dancing 2. Took Max’s spot in a video game tournament to play with Adrien 3. Harshly called out Lila in front of Adrien unknowingly making the worst enemy of her life 4. Was willing to team up with Chloe to humiliate Kagami 5. When Chloe’s parents got akumatized together she chose Kagami to help only to get her away from Adrien which led to Chloe joining Monarch’s side and half the heroes identities getting exposed. Even though Marinette may have only loved Adrien for his perfection before, I can tell in season 4 and 5 she has looked past that and is starting to like him for him. And I know Marinette has regrets for the bad calls/stuff she did. Marinette is nothing like Chloe and Lila; she shows remorse for her actions and unlike those two who will only love Adrien for his perfect life, Marinette loves him for being himself.
Exactly. I’m not denying she’s done bad things because she has. Because she’s not meant to be perfect. She’s a child and even as an adult I still make plenty of mistakes. She always tries to rectify what she’s done wrong
Esos nunca debe faltar xD ya siendo protagonista o no siempre van a cometer errores o a aquivocarse solo q al parecer nos estancamos mucho y no vemos en lo q como han avanzado, siempre se va los van a ver de lo peor del personaje si es q pasa por esto xD (y no se porque) y estoy muy deacuerdo
No siempre un protagonistas siempre sabra q hacer, como acturar o hay veces q nos dejamos y actuamos impulsivamente 🤷♀️ pero lo q no estoy deacuerdo es el echo de q ledybug no haiga lejido a cloe en vez de kagamy, si no me esos son cap finales no? Quiere decir q ledybug (marinette xd) ya le habia dicho q tenia q dejar der queen bee q creo q fue en (donde sabrina se akumatiza) ahora creo q no tiene nada q ver el echo q sea un familiar si fuera haci, muchos de los compañeros no habrían recibido sus miraculous ya haci mucho q la mayuria de los akumatizados son los padre o familia de los amigos de marinette? 🤔🤔🤷♀️🤷♀️
The only good things is that Marinette tries to be better and learns from her mistakes, she’s not a mary sure, she’s like everyone else, a flawed person who makes such bad mistakes.
I gotta say that you did a pretty good job on addressing the points that I and many of the other fans and people in the fandom brought up on why we dont like Marinette or even outright hate her. What I said about her is nowhere near the point of outright being disgusted by her presence of her character and when she had an anxiety attack, it made sense given the context of what happened and her overall perception of things that played out as they did. I still hold strong on my points of why I dont like her and while I respect your reasoning on why she is how she is, I cant still shake my general opinion of her because of seeing it too much from the previous 4 seasons and it being a fundamental aspect of her character. I appreciate you telling your own personal troubles and issues and that story with Aiden and how he handled the problem that you was fretting over with your collab shows his character in a good light and hes a legit guy and a good friend for you, and being that vulnerable with yourself and how you still deal with your anxiety to this day shows your inner strength and that makes me appreciate you even more as a content creator and as a person. I enjoyed watching this video and I did listen to all of your points and watched this video to the end, and heres to at least some good people starting to change their opinions of Marinette as the show goes on and we have more specials and that Miraculous Theatre Movie
thank you for being so respectful bestie 🥰 hoenstly at this point, i don't mind people who dislike her (i certainly don't like all the characters myself), but i don't understand the obsession of hating her that much that other people drive themselves crazy with it, you know?
@haze clarke Yeah. She's not even a real character and despite her flaws, the fact that people are just THAT driven to hate her and hold a personal vendetta against her tells more about them than why they hate her. Also, if they truly hate her, WHY WATCH THE SHOW???????? They can just leave it alone and watch something else instead of lingering and being pessimistic about it and ruining it for many other people AND children as well, which does them and the Fandom no good whatsoever
Thank you for showing up for Marinette. The fact that people spew such negativity towards her character is just not made talking to people about the show fun. I have tried my best more than once to come to her defense and subsequently the writers. We all have opinions but sometimes it can get to be too much. Love the channel btw.
I totally agree with your opinions Haziepie, Marinette is known to make many terrible mistakes which did lead to people hating her very much but she's still a teenager and no one's so perfect, people make mistakes but what matters is how they learn from them, and she is shown to learn from it in Season 5 which is something I definitely love about her. I'm glad we're on the same page.
I also find it so weird that people call out Marinette stalking Adrien but never gives cat noir the same treatment for never accepting ladybug's feelings nand still continuing to pursue her over and over again
I'm so glad you made this video Haze. I've been going crazy defending Marinette from so many people all the time. But I have no problem to continue doing it. *She can save the city even though she can barely wake herself up in the morning- epic 😂
Adrien actually should be a mary sue at least to his parents because of the entire Senti thing he was actually created to be perfect and I think people miss that.
I completely agree with this video. Although personally, I do think this show is going to gey more mature as the seasons go by, I mean if it is going to stick to 12 seasons, it can't always have the same taste if you get what I mean. I also hope that as the seasons go by, I hope we get to see development on characters like Nino, Max, Ivan, Mylene, even Socqueline. I hope she gets a miraculous, but before that happens I want them to develop her character more. Same for Nino, as you may know about my theory, I really hope that if they stick to it, they give Adrien that supportive and protective shelter that he needs when or when he's not a hero. I get Marinette is the main, but this is miraculous tales of Ladybug and "Cat Noir", by that logic, it means that the show is about both of them, so why can't Adrien have a supportive person like Nino, whilst Marinette has Alya. Anyway here's a spoiler: April Fools Haze
I would definitely like it for all the characters to get more development! But rn the show isn’t doing that because it isn’t an ensemble cast, so I don’t think it should be criticised for what it never was meant to be
@@hazeclarke yeah but some characters are getting development like, Zoe, Luka, Kagami, Felix, Alya. I would like it for some of the other characters to develop too.
I’m definitely hoping in a future episode Adrien tells Nino about his identity. In the meantime he has Luka who knows his identity from “Wishmaker”. I’m hoping in migration Luka will tell him that he knows. Luka is an amazing friend and Adrien can always talk him if he needs something
@@anonymousfan1008 yeah but from the looks of things, it doesn't seem like that happens because Luka is missing so far, so idk if it will happen. Also, Luka knows both their identities, it is way too dangerous to be out and about with that knowledge. I wouldn't mind it happening though.
As someone who dislikes Marinette as a character and finds her a bad role model, I enhoyed your video and I do agree that these fictional characters don't deserve hate. However many youtubers like Cyrus the Great exaggerate for comic relief. Not all people who say mean things about characters always mean it as they say it for comic relief. I don't think people hate Marinette as a person but more so as a character. Same goes for Zoe.
@@hazeclarke I know. I agree 💯. But to each youtuber their own. Some channels are intended for people who like bit of dark humour. Calling someone a rapist isn't comic relief but other memes could be classed as comic relief.
Honestly I didn’t even know all these things were reasons people actually hated her. It’s absolutely disgusting that people hate Marinette because of having “too many” panic attacks. Like people, she only had one, and she’s just a teenager. She’s literally a year younger than me yet she handles things so well!!…Yes! Marinette gets ripped apart while Adrien does similar wrong things but doesn’t get called out, but Marinette does. Double standards!! Also loved the video! 💕
I usually don't comment as I am a guy. I get panic attacks, too. It is important to address mental health with young people. That can be quite a challenge, but this show tries. Thank you for your honesty & openness.
just pointing out that the definition of mary sue is not “lacking flaws”, it is “lacking realistic, story-relevant flaws” and/ or “flaws that are meant to be endearing”. furthermore, people use mary sue to refer to characters that are also irrelevantly over skilled and over-idealised.
Another reason Why I think people hate Marinette so much is because there are some creators that Like to exaggerate their analyses of the show for comedic effect ( Like Cyrus the Great for example [ I don’t think this is a bad thing and I don’t hold anything against him, but I do believe that people tend to Take everything he says seriously ]) and since most people in this fandom are children, they are easily influenced by everything they Say and so they spread those kinds of negative opinions
there's truth to that but i really think he doesn't care about what impression he gives off. besides, he makes transphobic "jokes" and uses misogynistic insults towards the girls in the show and that really isn't okay regardless of whether or not he was "joking" (i'm talking about the community posts). he also sexualises them sometimes, it's really weird and he keeps doing it. like maybe for the sake of edginess or whatever, making one or two jokes about that is like still trashy but whatever. but he keeps doing it again and again, and he has a large audience and very few people call him out about it and they're not taken seriously. i still think he's a decent critic, i agree with many of his criticisms but as a person with a large platform he's really toxic and even bigoted (he unironically posted "straight pride" on pride month like what lol)
Hello! This comment is kind of long, and applies logic from a fandom I'm in, so please refrain from reading if that's your concern. I don't want to get too deep into this, but the main reason I left the miraculous fandom was because of its toxicity. I never really liked marinette, but that doesn't mean I go and complain about her 24/7. That actually used to be the case, but then I just realized that this show was not for me and I kept getting tired of arguing with a bunch of 10 year olds who watch a kids show. My favorite show ever is the Precure franchise, and everyone keeps criticizing it for being a 'sailor moon ripoff' or being made for kids, when most of them have probably watched one season at max. There are currently 20 seasons of precure, and just because you don't like heartcatch or maho girls doesn't mean every season is like this. The precure character that I see get criticized the most is Aida Mana from Dokidoki precure. She always gets called a Mary Sue, so much so that her fandom nickname is literally Mana Sue. I definitely disagree with those points, and even if she were one, what's wrong with that? There are legit 77 precure (soon to be 78 with the hirogaru midseason cure) and the entire fandom gets mad when a SINGLE character has traits of a Mary Sue. Like go pack your bags and MOVE ON because dokidoki is literally 10 years old, and unless they're doing an Otona precure spin off, she's not coming back... Like all of her team members minus Aguri and maybe Alice, but including Regina are in love with this freaking girl. And honestly, I'm not too mad about it. It just shows how good of a leader she is and how much she cares for others. Her dream is to be the prime minister of Japan, she's not playing around with her leadership 😂. I apologise for this little rant, but I feel like a lot of this logic could apply to miraculous. The moral of the story is that toxic fandom members exist, and that their opinions shouldn't have to be the standard. Also it may be a good idea to develop an allergy to them as a defense mechanism, just sayin.
@@hazeclarke yea honestly most fandoms are like that for some reason. We should be working towards making them a more positive place, which is what most creators wanted to have in the first place. Miraculous will always have a special place in my heart but unfortunately the fandom is just not it.
Funny how people say that Marinette had a lot of pictures at home when adrien does the same thing he puts all his photos of ladybug in his trophies and has pictures of her in his laptop and HIS PHONE. Isn’t that also weird? Because if the fandom will bash her for having pictures of adrien then they should also bash him too because he does the same thing. Marinette have done many wrong things but adrien also is pushy with ladybug even when she made it clear that she wasn’t interested and her heart belonged to another boy but he still pursued her even after she said that. Plus the only reason she threw him in the garbage was because she crossed the line she had told him not once but more than twice but he still kept being a persistent nag. I mean it common for a human to lash out on another being. I know some of y’all lashed out on somebody because they kept on nagging like cmon. Y’all sympathize for adrien because his mom is gone but what about Marinette her parents neglect her. Yes they do and hear me out when she got accused what did her parents do they told her to drop the evidence they didn’t even try to defend her. She was also bullied by Chloe it was mentioned in the origins and dirisn ( don’t know how to spell it ) but she bullied her for 4 years and pulled an insensitive prank on her and tried to humiliate her by posting it online. And not only that but she puts cat noirs feeling above hers in kuro neko even though she replaced him ( it was plaggs idea ) she didn’t want to keep breaking his heart over and over. She has a lot of responsibility being the guardian, superhero, class representative, inspiring designer , school work and she till made time for catnoir.
The fandom makes Marinette be the evil bad villain because they don’t see both perspective and that’s the problem. They always sympathize with Adrien but if they were in Marinette shoes they would understand why she is the way she is. It’s all explained in the episode dirison she was bullied by Chloe for 4 years and it was mentioned in the origins on why she didn’t wanna see Chloe in the class. She also mentioned that the guy she loves won’t be friends with Chloe let me clarify that in the origins episode Marinette thought that he was bad as Chloe because he was friends with her because she saw him “ put the gum on her sit” but that wasn’t the case at all she misunderstood the whole situation and adrien was compassionate he even apologized to her when it wasn’t his fault at all and he was kind to her and that’s why she fell in love with him. And this also shows that she truly loves adrien and not the idea of him because whenever he vents to her she always listens and tries to help him in the episode risk ( I think ). And Mari is not a Mary Sue she has a lot of flaws but she’s learning and her going on a picnic date with adrien showcase that , she didn’t wanna make convoluted plans and if you know Marinette she hates being vulnerable she likes to take control and she hates confrontations that’s why when she fights she makes catnoir fight offense and her defense she still fights of course but she uses her yo-yo from a distance. Unlike Chloe Marinette actually realized her mistakes and is trying to unlearn all of those things.
Both Marinette and adrien are learning from their mistakes because in dirisin you can see that he is patient with Marinette which in catnoir is was pushy with his feelings.
Exactly! My only guesses are it’s because we spend more time with Mari but also some of it is routed in misogyny. He can do it but she can’t. He’s been creepy towards her idk how many times as Cat Noir and everyone is fine with it, of course, that doesn’t negate what she’s done towards Adrien, but let’s keep he same energy for everyone It’s a big issue with the fandom. I don’t get why they don’t sympathise with her more. We see everything she goes through and people are still horrible about her, saying she’s being over dramatic when she’s not. They’d react no better in her situation Agree with everything you said bestie! 💖
Thank you for sharing your struggles with anxiety! I also have extreme anxiety and it can be so frustrating when I start to spiral about things that no one else seems to notice or care about what so ever. I will say I have been making a conscious effort to put myself outside of my comfort zone more and more for a few years now and all though I will always have anxiety I am in a much better state of mind then I use to be. For anyone who is struggling with similar issues I want you to know you are valid and there are coping mechanisms and resources that can help. You deserve to feel better and although it might take time it can get better!
Miraculous is way to overhated tbh, like with Marinette people just straight up complain about things that doesn't make any sense, like with the part when someone said that she has too many panic attacks or she is perfect. I am happy that there are still people in this fandom that think twice about something and then say it online.
I’ve noticed since season 4 Marinette and Alya have gotten SO much hate. It’s clear that it is racism and also double standards. First of all when Alya found out about Mari’s identity people were villainising her and said she were gonna betray ladybug when 1 she was so supportive and respectful when she found out and 2 she literally helped Marinette get stronger with these magical charms. It’s so annoying cuz when Luka found out no one was villainising him and he did not have the right to keep their identities a secret he should’ve told them. I’ve seen so many comments hating on her also because she believes Lila and I understand the frustration but maybe Mari hasn’t spoken to her about her lies she probably forgot due to the fact that Lila hasn’t been around only in Protection it seemed Marinette remembered about Lilas manipulation after consulting Kagami. While Marinettes writing can be inconsistent cough cough Season 3 she really grew in Season 4. The writers really tried to make her look like she was in the wrong and make us feel bad for cat noir where as for me it turned out to be the opposite. Cat noirs behaviour was appalling in certain episodes notably glaciator 2 where he didn’t respect LBs boundaries and when he finally did he completely forgot about it at the end. In Hack-San he tried to cataclysm Scarabella due to his jealousy. He then says “no need to keep the cat in the loop” which is hypocritical as in The New York Special Cat Noir got upset at LB when he didn’t tell her he was leaving Paris aswell. In Rocketear, yes I felt sympathy but it’s the way LB asked if he was okay and he said he was fine so how is LB supposed to know if he was alright if he bottles up his emotions. Then his worst episode Kuro Neko where he didn’t even bother to transform to help LB and he wondered why he was being replaced. He then shows up when the villian is defeated and flirts with LB after having the stress of having to call on every hero to defeat the villain. He then gets angry and renounces his miraculous in the open for Gabe to have possibly gotten. All LB wants to do is save Paris and live a normal life but CN wants to just fool around and have LB all to himself and then in the finale when he consults her if it was Scarabella or anyone else he wouldn’t have shown up it was only because she was alone and in a vulnerable state that he used it to his advantage. People are so hypocritical to say “Marinette is a creepy stalker” when Cat Noir literally tried to kiss LB in Prime Queen twice without even consenting doing it again as Adrien in multiplication. Also in Glaciator he got really annoyed at LB when she didn’t turn up to his romantic setting even tho she said she were busy and then acted all arsey with her in the battle and then he finally understood she likes someone else he completely forgets about that in Frozer and acts immature again. While Theo was overage and creepy in CopyCat when Cat Noir got jealous and said how him and Ladybug were a thing that is toxic masculinity this just makes LB seem like an object as CN has a say in whether they are together or not. I’m not gonna say who but there is this one TH-camr that is hating on Marinette and Alya so much that their fans and supporters are agreeing there is so much racism in the fandom and they are also making “sensual jokes” about teenagers which I think is absolutely disgusting and needs to be called out.
Oh gosh Alya too! That’s awful. The only case I think alya would betray mari would be if she were akuamtised. I don’t think she’d ever do it willingly. But like you said with Luka, everyone’s fine with it. The double standards are horrible There is definitely a lot of communication problems that were present between LB and CN in earlier seasons (not so much this season) but it’s an issue lying between both of them, not just solely LB’s fault Omg sensual jokes?! They’re all children! That’s awful
Putting aside the fact that you're just parroting things that have been said by other people, none of those points are good. Plenty of people (including me) do villainize Luka. This seems like selective obliviousness. Lila claimed she was best friends with Ladybug. Alya should have picked up that Lila isn't honest the moment she discovered Marinette's identity. But what truly makes Alya bad in these cases is her complete disregard of what Marinette says, essentially accusing Marinette of being a liar all those times. "Risk" is the worst case of this. Please explain how CN "completely forgot about it at the end". Also, you're blowing things out of proportion. He did not try to cataclysm Scarabella "due to his jealousy", he thought she was a supervillain. Also, Ladybug making a similar mistake that she got angry over before makes her the hypocrite, not him. And the circumstances of these mistakes were quite different. CN didn't want to disappoint Ladybug. Ladybug just didn't think about CN at all. In "Rocketear", how exactly was CN supposed to talk about what he just discovered without snitching on Nino/revealing his own secret identity? "Kuro Neko" is indeed CN's worst episode, and I believe he is completely out of character there, yet you still managed to get things wrong. CN does not flirt during the beginning. And it was made pretty clear that CN's problem was that Ladybug doesn't trust him, not because "he wants to have LB all to himself". As for the finale, you're just making crap up at this point. Nothing you say is supported by anything. In "Prime Queen", the villain was threatening to kill people unless the duo "admitted their feelings". And CN stopped when Ladybug told him to. As for "Multiplication", I think you need a better understanding of French customs (La Bise). Does Adrien make mistakes? Of course. Do I think he's a good character? No, because of unrelated reasons. But is he the monster you're trying to paint him as? Absolutely not. And I assume that the TH-camr your complaining about is Cyrus the Great (who I despise), which I find a little weird since the majority of your arguments seem to be parroted from him.
@@diegogonzalez5273 I only agree on his depiction of Adrien/ Cat Noir his opinions on anyone else is disgusting and brainwashes people into hating the characters. I watch the cartoon hotspots take on the fandom during season 4 and all of her points were valid no need to get arsey at me geez
Haven't finished the full video yet (might edit in something if I have something to say about the end), but just wanted to say your PhD sounds really interesting and I hope it goes well! It would be some important research and I hope it has some kind of impact, so all that hard work won't be for nothing. I'm just starting my dissertation this summer, I can't imagine how stressful a PhD is 😅.
I feel so bad I’m just now watching this. I listened to this on my way to work. If I don’t watch the full video before work I’ll definitely catch up on the rest after work. You’re amazing Haze ❤ I’m loving this video so far. I think to catch up on your videos I think I watched 3 of your videos yesterday.
oh don't worry about it bestie! you don't have to watch my videos the second they release! they're there for when you have time 🥰 i'm glad you're enjoying this so far
I don't understand why Marinette gets so much hate! Sure, she has faults and makes mistakes, but she gets consequences for things she does wrong! Why hate someone who's already paying for her mistakes?
Thank you Bestie for giving that video to us!!! ❤ It is absolutely lovely and I seriously can't agree more with you! Everything was explained so perfectly. You really did a great job in defending Marinette. I absolutely do not understand why people hate on characters or hate in general if you don't like something just move on. Especially this is a kids show it's meant to be for children if they don't like they don't have to watch it. But I also feel a little sorry for those people because they seem like they were not allowed to make mistakes at all in their childhood and were not allowed to feel sad or anxious or something. But what I hate the most about this is that all of this hate in the fandom doesn't stay on the characters or the show it goes to attacking the creators of the show and other people of the fandom and that's just so sad. I totally understand that you got upset about the hate over her anxiety. I got upset too when you said this. I hate it when people are like why are you so anxious or you have no reason to be anxious or depressed or something or making fun if other people's fears. Thank you for telling us about your anxiety and your panic attack with the story with Aidan. I love you for that Bestie😌🥰 I have anxiety /low self-esteem too and everything felt so relatable. I always feel less horrible when I know that other people feel the same! So I'm really happy and grateful that your community is so lovely that we can feel safe here without so much hate going on that's really amazing!❤️
Ahhh im so glad you liked it! 🥰 like people are allowed to hate characters (I don’t like all the characters in the show), but I don’t get the obsession around it. But yes you’re so right, the hate for Marinette or whoever goes to the writers and actors and it’s disgusting I’m so glad it helped with your anxiety! It did make me nervous to talk about it, I won’t lie, but I feel better for doing it now I know it helped you
@@hazeclarke Yess exactly! This obsession about is just too much. Aww I can totally imagine how hard it is must been to talk about it! But I'm really glad you did🥰
There are plenty of fans who love her, or love both her and Adrien equally in different ways (like me). The haters WISH they spoke for the fandom, but based on what I’ve observed most of them just hate her because she’s everything they wish they could be (I looked at their history posts on Reddit and even saw one of their photos and let’s just say their subconscious jealousy of her might be because they probably wish they looked like her and had a loving boyfriend and a circle of close friends. One of the most venomous haters on Reddit I remember was an obese Haitian girl with bad skin who constantly complained about feeling like a “loser” and an “underachiever” (her words in verbatim) and she had a boss who pushed her out of the way at her job and her family members bullied her over her weight and her roommates called her a loser as well so I understand hurt people often lash out (even if it’s against cartoon characters) however I think that person would benefit from therapy and work on becoming a better person instead of taking her hate out of cartoon characters and even people in real life (she talked about how much she hates white and Asian girls her age). It’s just sad.
I think that sometimes Marinette (not just her, but the video is about her) ends up suffering with some of the writing decisions as well. For example, you brought up the fact that Marinette suffers from the consequences of her mistakes, which I agree for the most part. But, sometimes the consequences don't feel right. In Gang of Secrets she tells Alya that she is LB. I totally understood why she did it and I don't blame her considering the situation. However, we never see how this affects CN and her relationship with him directly because she never tells him! And again, I don't blame the character of Marinette, I think the writers just forgot/didn't want to include that for some reason. So in s4 we do see CN and LB growing apart and it certainly back fires because they become so disconnected they lose in the end. But because some things are never brought up after they happen, the conflicts just feel unfinished and unresolved. Hence why the sentence " she doesn't suffer consequences" surfaces so much, imo. And again, I think this affects Adrien, Alya and even Nino, but since the video is about Marinette I only talked about her case.
while i can see what you're saying, i think that's what they were aiming for. they wanted to break LB and CN apart so they could come back together stronger for S5 when it was just them on the team! it was kind of the point of S4
@@hazeclarke I didn't mean that LB and CN shouldn't have broken apart, maybe I didn't word my thoughts properly. I was trying to say that because certain things like Mari telling Alya she is LB or Adrien trying to create a persona for LB to fall in love with him were never brought up again, It feels like those events were left without consequences. I feel like both of those things would play a huge role on the heroes becoming disconnected, but It just doesn't feel like they had the impact they should have because they were forgotten.
I have the same feeling that writers are more to blame for some Marinette's actions than Marinette herself. Prolonged "Creepynette" state in seasons 1-3 are writers fault, because writers were doing everything to stop her natural grow.
I think a lot of the hate comes from the creator itself also. There will be hate, but him barking back just multiples it by 100. I don't know about the misogyny thing. A lot of the same people who hate Marinette likes Chloe.
I see what you're saying but Marinette has been a stalker in a bad partner in like the first three seasons, not only that her power is quite literally Limitless, she has three powers, while other people only have one and while her partner only has one power even though it said that they were supposed to be equals, and no one really calls her out on the bad thing she does except if they're Chloe or Lila, and Thomas him so you know the creator of the show Joey said that Marinette was the smartest character in the show now I don't believe that, but it feels like he's heading in that direction. This show has been good since season 2
As shown in the video, by definition Marinette has not been a stalker and imo she has not been a bad partner. And are the powers her Miraculous gives her a valid reason for all of the vitriol thrown at her?
Well. That blew my mind that people hate Marinette for asking for help! I have the exact opposite problem. I get mad at her for not asking for help ENOUGH! I wish she would delegate more to Cat or Rena and take some of the pressure off herself. 😵💫 Who is out here saying you can't ask for help at (insert random age)? You can and should ask for help at any age. You will always be dealing with new challenges in life and there is no shame in needing a hand!
Okay, I finally finished watching your video! Honesty, I love that you put more details and depth about Marinette. I honestly mixed feelings about her because.. a lot of fans started hating on her.. I mean, yes she's not a perfect main character but we could see a lot of mistakes she has in every episode and that's okay. Sometimes in life, you WILL always make mistakes (twice or more) until you realize why you did that. For example, we've seen her did the same mistakes twice because of Adrien, HER loves one in season 3 and season 4 finale, which she finally realized and not to do the same mistakes again in season 5. Plus... they're teenagers so of course they're not fully developed at this stage. Marinette's panic attack disorder part makes me upset because.. it happens in real life and you can't really think straight in the situation. People actually make fun of her like that which is.. disgusting.. utterly disgusting.. Honestly, I do have anxiety too so I totally understand why you feel nervous while making it but.. on a positive note, you did a great job filming the whole video (which took a lot of time and energy there) because you put so much effort into one hour video. Anyway, yes, Marinette does have self-esteem issues when it comes to Adrien and she talked bad about herself that she's a terrible guardian because it's her fault. Truthfully, I think we have all been there especially young people because sometimes we tend to say bad things to ourselves which can lead to depression, but at the same time we're humans. But fans get so toxic on her like "She's a terrible person and stalked Adrien." But now in season 5, they said "She talked bad about herself just because she's a terrible guardian." Like.. what do you expect from her? It literally proved that they hated Marinette and her character. I never understand them these days.
of course we all make mistakes! but kids have got to learn that it's okay to through her! and yeah she's a child. so many people forget that oh gosh seeing people make fun of her anxiety upsets me so much. and honestly the anxiety section was difficult to film, so that means a lot to hear!
I think that the reason a lot of people hate Marinette is because she doesn't make sense as the MC. Think about it, the show is about Adrien and his dad as the main villain. If they wanted a female lead, they could just have made him a girl. Marinette had no connection with Master Fu or with the real plot and she's not well written. Her obsessive behaviour with Adrien is never explained and explored until Derision and even then it is blamed on Chloe and came way too late, S5. If Marinette had more central ties to the plot and her behaviour was explained and explored from the start I think more people would like her.
i see what you're saying, however, the moment adrien is the lead, the show becomes so much more serious and the show would no longer fit the 8-10 audience. but that's not to say adrien shouldn't get more screen time because he totally should. he soemtimes feels like a side character
@@hazeclarke I get you. The show wouldn't be for 8-10 people if it was serious but even then, it is an animated show and there are no sexual/swear words involved. They could have deleted Adrien completely and simply made Gabriel a diluted villain and made Marinette the main with more ties to Master Fu.
Haze, in spite of everything, I don't think Marinette needs any defense. She's as flawed as we are, but with good intentions, with a ❤️ of gold, seeing only the good in people (which is her greatest flaw)... 😏
@haze, many of us beat ourselves up for what is objectively not really important... I imagine that some of us are worse than others... but it's hard to be introspective and not do this to some degree. I'm glad you can at least recognize that Adien probably didn't even register this. I sincerely hope he watches this and then confirms that it was not, in the slightest, a big deal. I know that, for me, having examples of times where I inflated a situation in my head has helped me figure out where to draw that line over time, and it happens less as a result. Sending lots of love and hugs. You're amazing and super smart! Thanks for this analysis and all your videos! 🥰
looking back at it now, i know my panic attack was unneccesary, but in the moment i couldn't see it. i was just so annoyed at myself for thinking i'd wasted his time. although is it weird that i hope he doesn't know? 😅 i don't want him to think less of me. although again, just my anxiety talking, because he's lovely and probably would never think that of me thank you so much 🥰
@@hazeclarke I completely understand! And I have done basically exactly this to myself in other situations (made myself sick over something that the other person didn't give a 2nd thought to). Like I said, with time and experience, hopefully you can better decide when something is truly panic worthy, but I can completely see how this happens to anyone who is introspective and genuinely cares about others. I don't think Aiden will think any less of you. If anything, my guess is that he will confirm that it wasn't a big deal to him and maybe, after it's all talked about, you can both laugh about it. 😊 I know it is blindlinly distressing in the moment... and easier to see after everything is resolved, that it in fact wasn't a big deal... however try to use that knowledge in the future to help you stay calm. It has helped me. Another thing that has helped me is to make a list, when I am calm, of truly earth shattering things... Thankfully, most of the things on that list have not happened to me, ever... but have happened to people in history or actively happening now to someone somewhere. That list helped to ground me to what I really actually care to protect myself and my loved ones from. And donate money to charities that help people in those situations... everything else I can breathe through...do my best... but you win some and you lose some and that's okay. Try not to stress... afterall, we are all only human. ❤️
I agree with you, Haze that we should not hate a character. Marinette isn't a bad person as she's just a fictional character. Even if i don't like her, i respect your opinion but do you think she deserves to be Ladybug?
Haze, thank you for this video. Marinette gets a lot of hate from the fandom, which is misogynistic because people have double standards for Marinette, as they hate her for having flaws, being perfect, being female, and being the main character in general. But the hate also stems from many Chloe and Lila supporters because they believe it's Marinette's fault that they are the way they are. When it's not, Marinette didn't do anything to Chloe to make her bully her and for not giving Chloe the miraculous anymore and how it's her responsibility to make her a better person when it's not. Two, Marinette has zero reasons to trust or like Chloe after everything she's done not just to her but the entire school, and just because Marinette learned about Chloe's family life and how awful her mother is to her, she's still not responsible for changing her, Marinette gave Chloe many chances to change and be a better person hell Ms. Bustier told her to do so in Zombizou. Still, Chloe didn't take them, and Marinette isn't going to continue; she's done what she could, and that's that. The same issue with Lila people makes it seem that it's Marinette's fault that she started lying when that's not true; she was lying about everything even before Marinette confronted her as Ladybug, and I would argue even if Marinette didn't confront her as Ladybug, it's evident that Lila would've seen Marinette as a threat for Adrien's affection as she did with Kagami in Oni-chan. And I've said it before, and I'll say it again Marinette wants nothing to do with Lila and the war she declared on her because while Marinette still has her guard up, she is not participating in it. At the same time, Lila has gone a complete stalker and obsessive over Marinette, as seen in Perfection that Marinette needs a restraining order against her. This is on a personal level, but I see myself in Marinette. It's one of the reasons why she's my favorite character because I can relate to her with being seen as the start student/role model for her classmates to follow/teacher's pets (it's never good to be the teacher's pets and I'm not just saying it because people make fun of you for it, there's more to it), putting a lot of pressure on myself to get everything done to the point I could enjoy life. In these moments, I was a lousy friend until I fixed those mistakes and had battles with anxiety that I felt that I couldn't rely on anybody for fear of burdening them. So when I see people being disgustingly mean towards Marinette, I feel attacked, and also, it's gotten to the point where the fandom is toxic (I know that not all fandoms are perfect, but still). So thank you again for this video and for shutting up those a**holes and having them eat their words. (Also, I would argue it's thanks to Master Fu that Marinette puts Chat Noir in the dark at times because she didn't like it at first and wanted to include him, but over time it came to the point it's second nature to her that she doesn't realize it until he finally said something and they were able to work through it.)
Ah yeah a lot of Chloe and Lila supporters do seem to be leading the hate against her! Chloe and Lila’s behaviour are not the fault of Mari, and yes, like in zomebiezou and vulpine, she does sometimes rile them up, but they are still inherently bad people I relate to her too! I get what you mean by feeling attacked when she is. Like when I made the post asking for the reasons, I never thought anxiety would be on there, and I did feel quite attacked by it. And yes it’s absolutely more master fu than LB who leaves CN in the dark in S1-3!
What you've said about people calling her a Mary Sue and then listing all her bad traits; she gets away with wrongdoings and doesnt face consequences. Her bad traits are not acknowledged as bad and she's essentially perfect with an ideal lifestyle. You would be right, IF her behaviour was pointed out and she was punished. In reality, she herself causes the most akumatisations. A bad person who does a lot of bad things and never faces consequences and rarely if never gets their behaviour pointed out, they are still a Mary Sue. A Mary Sue can make mistakes if they are DEPICTED as perfect. And also, about the stalker thing, she follows Adrien around, breaks and enters, cat blanc, follows him deliverately to another country, Shanghai special, spies on him and Lila, Volpina. That IS STALKING. I respect your opinion but I love Kagami and think this show should be focused on Felix, Kagami and the senti theories. I think she's a problematic and bad protagonist and character. I was sexually assaulted and the abuser got away with it, so i genuinely feel for her not facing consequences for her excess romantic behaviour which is just ABNORMAL. And I think a lot if not most would agree. We don't hate Marinette, we hate her character and how she's written. Kids show is not an excuse for bad writing.
that's still not a Mary Sue. not facing consequences doesn't make someone a Mary Sue. Chloe rarely faces them and she's sure as hell not one. and Mari is 100% punished, she's just not punished in the way *you* want. all of bad actions are done to get closer to Adrien. and the result? she doesn't get closer to Adrien. she only gets closer to him when she talks to him 100% agree kids shows are not an excuse for bad writing (and ngl i have been overall disappointed by the quality of the writing this season) and i am so sorry that happened to you while her behaviour is bad and i do not condone it and i think this could be done in loads of different ways eg misunderstandings and subtext between them, it literally does not fit the definition of stalking. I actually had someone stalking me online not long after the start of my channel and threatening me and i had to prove it all, so as someone who has been stalked, what mari is doing is not that, but again, i wish she didn't do what she does in the show and it was shown in a better way however it is contradictory to say we don't hate mari, just her character... those mean the exact same things?
Just wanted to come back and say sorry once again for what you went through and I’m sorry if you felt that I brushed over it in my reply. I can’t imagine how awful it was
@@hazeclarke It's ok bestie. I'm only a teen too! I acc agree that she's not a bad person and we certainly shouldn't hate her even if in my eyes she isn't the best character.
@@hazeclarke I have recently found your channel and haven't watched all your videos, but I don't think you've spoken about Master Fu. Can I hear your thoughts on him? Hearing different thoughts and opinions is really cool even if you don't agree. I like the fact that you are quite respectful in giving your opinions and respect everyone's thoughts, so I'd love to hear yours too!
I am happy u had the courage to call out against Misogyny. I mean as an now above 30 adult in a South Asian country both this concept and the stigma against Psychiatric Disorders is high. And I'm a Male. For Expressing my emotions, in childhood at school, I have been rebuked. "Man up". " Be a boy" 🤢..( I went to a very prestige boy's school BTW) So disgusting when u reflect on it. I took have undergone panic attacks and I remember how distressing it was for me. And I also how ppl had labelled it as 'overreacting', 'getting freaked out for no reason', 'pretending to be ill' etc. Believe those comments add hurt to the hurt of the panic attack. I'm still taking treatment myself and there are situations which exactly freaks me out and make me anxious. That fear u might get another attack is enough to drive u out of ur mind. Anxiety, Depression and Panic attacks r no joke, no pretend attention seeking behaviours or ever a 'luxury.' If a person gets a bone fracture they r not stigmatised. then why is this change in neurocircuitary stigmatised. I started when I was doing my medical internship. And now I'm a trainee in Psychiatry. Yeah.. Go ahead question me..Can someone with Anxiety and Depression help another. Beleive me u can better than anyone else. Like Haze clearly said out and spoke against stigmatising Anxiety those who experience it know how traumatizing it is and how much support they need at that moment. U sound confident but u aren't. Exactly like when I'm ready to do a clinical discussion. And unfortunately there are some so called Psychiatry 'Professionals' who add insult to injury and also support unhealthy toxic gender stereotypes. The discrimination for a woman with anxiety is terrible. For men it is even worse. The disgusting gender stereotyping! 🤢. I admire ur bravery to voice ur opinion Haze. 💪. We r right there with u.
oh gosh my PhD is actually looking at stigma against mental health in Asia! so i can't imagine how bad it truly is to experience, especially due to gender roles. but sadly it's similar everywhere. panic attacks are awful to have so im so sorry you had to go through all of this
I don't personally like nor dislike Marinette I'm in the middle, but she's lying a little too much no hate no shame. I full respect her as a character.
Tbh I used to THINK I didn't like Marinette when I was a lot younger, but now that Im slightly more mature and have a better perspective on the show, Ive realized the thing I hated WASN'T Marinette, it was the WRITING. She's a TERRIBLY written protagonist, but it's not the characters fault. The writing isn't CONSISTENT enough for it to be the characters fault. Its the same thing with Chloe, the writers keep doing these poor girls dirty smh
So this was unnerving. I'm watching the video, feel like I have something to say, pause, comment, and then resume the video to hear Haze say the exact thing! Thank you for making this, Haze!
I was on TH-cam and I saw that as of typing this, a trailer for Protection, episode 16, came out, but the trailers came out months ago. How does that make sense?! If there's a logical explanation for that, could someone please tell me. Thanks.🤔😕
I have had my moments with Mari and the fact she is so bad at confronting situations and wanting to control everything I like this season as we see things differently we see she lost everything but as cat said he is still here and always will be so she still had most important person with her and realised because of her lack of skills with confrontation is so bad she hurt cat instead of protecting him and realised her mistakes I also look at origins differently after derision and understanding maris reasons more and what she has been through and her obsessions and why
I agree with everything you said, and she also seen the future in cat blanc, and had really paranoid with things and having nightmares about it (besides the Adrian being a crazy Chloe lover nightmare) because if I seen the future, I would have nightmares about it and paranoid of it, and marinette is going through that phase where she is crazy in love with someone (aka Adrien)
I blame ~certain TH-camr's~ hatred for writing decisions/characters disguising their hatred as bad character writing for the massive amounts of slandering of Marinette's character. Some people believe if a character just reaches two or three of the criterias of the "social definition" it constitutes them as a Mary Sue which is not the case. People like manipulating the definition so they don't have to do much work in discrediting a piece of writing and get the audience to think how they do/agree and it's prevalent in the more modern cartoon analysis community. Any rando can just go up to the microphone claim they're a source to look up to and get a huge audience, it's only going to increase. If the audience doesn't analyze for themselves or other TH-camrs don't try to disprove them, they are left with a very negative view of the character and start to develop confirmation bias. Any new scenes with the character will only be viewed if it comfirms their previous assumption or they'll try very hard to make it fit into their narrative of the character.
I don't watch too many other TH-camrs for miraculous... I watch you, cartoon apocalypse, and smarty pants... Thankfully, the three of you don't do any of the misogynistic comments... I'm saddened to find out that this is the case... unfortunately not super surprised... but sad nonetheless. Thanks for bring it to light.
In my opinion I don't think she's a BAD person and I disagree with the people who pick on her every mistake and dont defend her at all. I think she's a great person for trying her best and saving the world, but i just think she's a poorly written character and some QUITE BAD things she does are portrayed as funny yet she isn't punished. For example, in Copycat she stole Adrien's phone and got away with it. I respect your opinion 💯 but I would slughtly disagree as i feel she is a bad protagonist and badly written character, I've ended up losing a lot of respect for her after the s5 finale. She would make more sense if her behaviours were explained, elaborated and called out upon. Adrien tbvh makes a better mc as he has more plot relevance.
Yes she was punished. Everything she does is to get closer to Adrien and that doesn’t actually happen until Risk when she speaks to him normally. She’s just not punished in a way that’s satisfying to you and that’s where the difference lies
@@hazeclarke Yes I understand that. I just think Adrien makes more logical sense, they could have made a female character for Adrien and made her the main. Because the main story, villain arc, senti theory and plot is more linked with Adrien. I would have loved to see more Emilie backstory. I think Emilie being evil and being the next hawk moth would be a better twist. What about you?
@@hazeclarke You're right about that. She is punished, but it's best if she is punished differently, like by apologizing or getting told off by the other person. Not necessarily yelled at or severely punished, but called out, an imposed consequence and better if her character developed more. We can all have and share our opinions but what's important is that we respect eachother 💕
2:15 I've seen videos about it and in my opinion the scene is massively taken out of context! From what I've seen about the comic She sees a bunch of guys hauling boxes in a creepy alleyway and assumes they're stealing (because they're doing it in a creepy unlit alleyway!!!) Not because they're black! And then she talks to them and they're really nice to her and she realizes she was wrong. That scene is definitely taken out of context to fuel people's hate for Marinette tbh. But I understand how some people could've interpreted it that way, just kinda sucks that a lot of people always have such bad faith interpretations of stuff. 😅
@@Howaboutyes11 is it?? From the analysis vides I've seen they didn't mention it- Maybe the person I got the analysis from didn't do a good job at describing the scenes then.. I'm sorry!
I would love if you could make a in defense of kagami video even tho I know you don't like her so much since she is my favorite character or a in depth video for her . I know I am late sorry but can you make longer videos since I listen to this one when I was cleaning but love your videos keep on going bestie ❤🎉
Danm I am a total 5 hours late but ANYwho I TOTALLY agree with this video however something I would say is that plp just hate and TRY to find any way SHAPE oR FORM to hate mari like one time i saw someon write a whole ass novel about how mari is to "dramatic" because she had to many panic attacks and shes to CHESSY???!!! First of all shes a *ahem* TEEEEEEENager and second of all shes had ONE panic attack that was in strike back and THRID of all that "chessy" part about her is a SIDE every single ass character in ANY show has a sassy side like with chloe likr with adrein and the fact they say its DRAMATIC!???!!? bRuH shes had a couple sassy sences and we are BARELY getting any of that seriously when will this fandom ACTUALLY have a cell??!! 🤦♀️
I do agree that Marinette is not a Mary sue but when people say that she is. I get it because this Fandom has a weird definition for Mary sue because a lot say Mary sue when the plot goes out of its way and make characters act out of character to make Marinette look better like Kim and Chloe in Derision and also when Marinette wins a fight because of stuff that doesn't makes sense like in Revolution when Ladybug and Catnoir just chose not to detranform. I know its like mentally grown up that matters. But its still feels very plot armor and a bunch of bull crap. and also I can't be mad at haze for not Understanding that when people say Mary sue in this fandom it normally means that a character has to much plot armor. because She just going off what people said and using logic to say the people are wrong. Because Marinette isn't a Mary sue, She has plot Armor. and this thing where character with plot armor get called Mary sue. is not just Marinette it also happens to Lila. So if you have plot armor they get call Mary sue other then Felix because well Felix is amazingly.
Season 5 was originally going to be the last but it got extended. I’m hoping in a future season we learn more about Lila and what made her the way she is now.
The only problems I have with Marinette is that she's obsessed with Adrien. Adrien isn't freaked out by her but probably because he hasn't seen everything she's done. And he did look kind of uncomfortable in Troublemaker and Puppeteer 2 when he saw those pictures and when she almost kissed him. I wouldn't call that harassment because she didn't know it was him but that was still very creepy of her. Also in past seasons we can see that she doesn't want any other girl to be close to him. In Volpina she completely humiliated a girl she just met who was just telling lies about being friends with her. I'd be mad at that but I wouldn't go that far (and she literally only did it because Lila was talking to Adrien). She also stopped Adrien and Kagami from having their first kiss in Heart Hunter because she was jealous. In Animaestro she also tried to embarrass Kagami in front of Adrien because she didn't want them to go to Japan together. She also lied to her parents who were really excited for her to go to Shanghai to learn the language and culture but she just wanted to go there to see Adrien. Also her relationship with Adrien didn't really go anywhere till the season 4 finale. There were some really sweet moments between them but I didn't really care about then until the season 4 finale. Also I just don't think she's a relatable character. She's too dramatic and the only time I could relate to her is at the start and end of season 4. But I don't understand why people have a problem with her anxiety. I've had a lot of panic attacks this year due to reasons I'm not really sure about. But it can happen to anyone and the panic attack she had was completely normal for a teenager. Also I know this is unrelated to the video but when you were talking about the story with Cartoon Apocalypse I could literally relate so much. I panic a lot for basically no reason. I haven't been diagnosed for anxiety because I'm scared that if I ask my parents they'd think I'm being too dramatic and have nothing to be anxious about 😅.
That is true, but as long as she hasn’t harming him, then I don’t see the problem with the obsession. She never gets anywhere with it. And in P2, tbf to M, she did think he was a statue, as soon as she found out he wasn’t, she was super embarrassed and got very upset. It was creepy, yes, but she didn’t know it was him. I don’t think it’s fair to lay all the blame on her here And again, in volpina, she paid for her mistake, but imo (although it should have been done nicer), people who lie should be called out. While I understand Mari’s motivation in that moment was due to Adrien, it doesn’t mean she should have let what Lila was doing slide. Same with animaestro and Shanghai special. Mari gains very little for her behaviour It’s totally fine if you don’t relate to her! Personally I do. I’m very over dramatic XD and was when I was a teenager Oh gosh bestie I’d talk to your parents! If you get this many panic attacks, I think you should be seeking some further help 💖
I can’t believe people are hating her so much for having anxiety. That’s bonkers. I’m 25, and have so much anxiety around a guy I like. I bawled in my car driving home after talking to him. She’s 14. Give the girl a break.
And spoilers, but it needs to be said. She is in her every right to have anxiety on her crush, who happens to be friends with her bully, as she has been heartbroken by a crush who was also friends with Chloe before due to a prank gone wrong.
I feel like people are getting “marry sue” confused with just basic character design. She is pretty basic and there’s tons of characters like her, therefore “she’s a marry sue” when she’s really not. And there’s nothing wrong with her character being basic, the thing about basic is that it’s COMMON in real life which makes her relatable. Could she be more dynamic? Sure, but is it still a kids show where the characters are kind of supposed to flat and not super nuanced so that KIDS can understand the character? Y e a h And on the topic of stalking? I mean, come on, you’ve never had a crush go a little off the rails in middle school? She’s 14, let her have her weird fantasies. Some of y’all need to look up what “suspending disbelief” is
Please pin me Haze! Come on Let's all forget about Marinette Haze, you are the new Ladybug from s6 on out That solves all issues We may hate Marinette but everyone loves Haze!
Speak for yourself. Plenty of fans love Marinette (or Marinette and Adrien equally in different ways-like me). Maybe you only see haters because you hate her and only listen to others that do. But they don’t represent the whole fandom. Some of us frankly don’t have time to hate on cartoon characters 🤷♀️ life is too short
I like Marinette a lot and many times I see myself in her, but I'm sometimes getting annoyed with her obssesive behaivor towards Adrien and anxiety. Not to degree to straight hate her, but to at least to roll my eyes. While I dislike a lot her stalkish actions, I realized recently that I must admit that she never made Adrien uncomfortable by this, which you also pointed in your video, what we cannot say about Chat Noir (dark side of LadyNoir is a material for separate video assay), and many people seems to forget about it. However, I think that the main thing why Marinette creepyness annoyes me so much is that it is overexplored. I'm watching Miraculous from the very beginning (seriously, I was hooked up on Stormy Weather and I'm watching this show since then) and in season 1 and 2 her behaivour wasn't annoying me. It started to be in seasons 3 and 4, when it was over and over again. I was sick of Creepynette, I wanted Marinette speaking with Adrien like normal human being and seeing their friendship grow, but writers consequently were stopping her development just to squeeze everything in season 5. Now we know that "Agreste Arc" suppose to take one school year, but previously it was never established (timelane is messed and very random; Smarty Pants made a good video on it), so I though that it was couple years, just like for us. I expected more pronouced development. When it comes to the Marinette' anxiety - thank you Haze, for opening my eyes, I wasn't thinking about it in that way. My annoyance on Marinette anxiety came from different root. I personally has got many fears too and I'm often freaking out like Marinette, so I'm usually very forgiving for her overreacting (and I understand that many of her "drama queen" moments are for comic relief), but I was very annoyed with her in Perfection. Few episodes earlier (Transmission, but even Mr. Pigeon 72) she was able to touch Adrien and cuddling to his arm, but now she again cannot speak with him. Again. Despite of her knowing that he loves her and doesn't reject her, which should made her feel more relaxed (worked in Cat Blanc). I have many fears too and I'm also scared of social interactions, just like Marinette, and I was annoyed that Marinette is not helping me go through it. As I mentioned at the begining, I'm seeing myself in Marinette many times and thinking: "if she can do this, I can do it too". But Perfection was not that episode, I was dissapointed and annoyed. I wasn't thinking that she still puts a lot of pressure on herself, so once again, thank you again, Haze, for opening my eyes. I hope that one day she will find way to overcome her fears.
Don’t get me wrong, I do think it’s a little overdone in the show and I think they could go about it in better ways, but due to her anxiety, I do think it makes sense it’s taken her this long Ah yeah Mari just has too much pressure on her. For ages she’s put all this pressure on herself surrounding Adrien, hence why she wants it all to go perfectly, but it just makes her more anxious. I’m glad I helped you understand it more!
@@hazeclarke You welcome, bestie, everybody has got different perspective and it is great that we can share it in friendly way:). I think that Mari also just have an impostor syndrome, and it would be great if it would be explored more. Many multitalented people suffer from this. Sometimes I'm blaming more writers than Marinette herself, because many things could be explored or executed differently, even with kids media in mind. I apprieciate a lot their creativity, they have got amaizing ideas, but not alwyas they are done best.
@@animeguy10000000 she is a stalker, she broke into Adrien’s house, she is a stalker. She sniffed his pillow, she is a stalker. She has memorized his schedule by heart, she is a stalker.
@@hazeclarke i don’t know that type of miraculous ladybug you watch, but grab a dictionary, open it and find the word “to stalk” and fucking study it because I can see that not only you’re an ignorant by not knowing what stalking really is, but you’re also childish by trying to make a 1hour long video just to defend some stalker 💀
Just finished watching the video. I -one hundred percent- 99% agree with all you said. She's over hated and does not deserve the hostility she gets. Your arguments were all clear and well-constructed, and I'm happy that you made this video. Now if only the whole fandom could watch it; that would resolve a lot of conflict. As for me, though. Personally, I still don't like Marinette. And I don't think I ever will. I kind of want her dead. Why? Well, simple: my favourite character is Chloe. I feel offended whenever a character takes a jab at her. And Marinette? She has taken way too many jabs at my Chloe. I know she (Chloe) is a horrible person, and that Marinette is mostly in the right here... but do I care? No. My bias doesn't have to be justified. I acknowledge and admit that Marinette is the good guy, and Chloe is the bad guy. But despite that, I still hate Marinette and like Chloe. And I don't think _anyone_ can change how I feel. If only everyone else were honest about how they feel, rather than trying to justify their hatred. Welp. This fandom sure is something. Something that I stopped bothering with, that is. Aight. Imma head out. Just wanted to get this off my chest.
@@hazeclarke I get that you're nervous (I'd be shaking if it was me in your shoes, so I'm not any better), but this video is the best I've seen out there. Also, yes, I do want her dead. Problem? That's just how much I hate her. And I feel like - at some point - I'll want all the characters dead, too.
@@Passionate_Aria Where does it say I can't separate fantasy from reality? And what's with the "it's a cartoon" argument? Are you saying all cartoons have terrible writing? You're definitely missing out on some amazing ones if you think so Cos there are cartoons out there with amazing writing that puts Miraculous to shame Maybe it's the writers who should grow up and stop pretending that the dumpster fire they're writing is the best thing since sliced bread.
@@yourlocalchloesimp I didn’t see your response till just now 😳 anyway I admit the writing on this show takes some weird turns at times but truth be told I like it, for the most part 🤷♀️ I know there are other cartoons out there with good writing though…then again many of my favorite cartoons have characters that make weird decisions (like Miraculous, Jem and the Holograms, Sailor Moon, etc.) so maybe it’s just more what I’m into. I don’t think the writing of this show is inherently bad though, just weird at times but I think it’s intentional and I tend to enjoy it
Isn't it odd that Haze decided to upload this video today of all days? April 1st... Haze, are you trying to tell us that this entire video is a joke and that you aren't actually defending Marinette because you realise how ridiculous, utterly ridiculous she is? I think that's what she's trying to say, besties.
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Hey besties! Just a couple of things I forgot to say in the video:
1. I should have talked about the racism more in the introduction instead of brushing over it like I did just because I haven’t read the full issue of the comic (again if anyone knows where I can find them, please let me know!). Even though I stand by that Marinette isn’t racist and that whoever wrote that is the one who is, it’s disgusting for it having happened in the first place and I should have said so in the video so I’m sorry for not doing so
2. It is our responsibility to keep this fandom as nice a place as possible, which is what a fandom, a community, is supposed to be. I hope you are all as equally nice in other creator’s comments sections as you are under mine 💖there is no reason to be unkind, and even if it is not returned, love and kindness are never wasted
Haze, the full comic can be found on the internet archive
Ah thank you bestie!
If you're gonna borrow it you gonna have to create a free account first
About Marinette treating her friends badly: the only time I was annoyed at how she treated her friend was with Juleka in Crocoduel. It wasn't nice the way she put Juleka in the middle between her and Luka. But it all blew in her face and she admitted that she was wrong and in the end she still had to face Luka and hopefully made another step in the direction of solving potential conflicts instead of avoiding them so it's all good
I dunno, if my friends literally plotted together to trap me with my ex somewhere I couldn’t walk away from him, I would’ve punched someone. And I would not have been even remotely sorry.
I wouldn’t put the blame on Juleka and she’s in an awful position with her own anxieties, but Marinette didn’t deserve that.
You don’t have to reconcile with somebody after a messy breakup. Nobody has any right to force someone to patch things up with their ex.
Marinette said ‘no.’ That should’ve been the end of it.
@@aileencrain6558 Yeah, but Juleka wasn't the one who did it! How does one go about uninviting her own brother from a party held in their own house(boat)?
thank you!! its always frustrating when marinette does something wrong and everyone hates her for it, but when adrien does something wrong everyone is like oH hE dOeSnT kNoW aNy bEtTeR
Lmaoooo exactly!
Ikr
Ugh, im tired of cartoon girls getting blamed for everything bad. Like Mabel and Marrinete aren't horrible people
Ugh, im tired of cartoon girls getting blamed for everything bad. Like Mabel and Marrinete aren't horrible people
@@GerganaZlatkova , it's not just cartoons. The trend has been going on ever since some people started taking Adam's side to blame the whole thing on Eve. The serpent's role is irrelevant to them.
Yessssss I love Marinette soooo freaking much and I'm super frustrated to how people just judge her so quickly even for the smallest little mistake she does. Like C'mon she's a human, a teenager and they can't make her 100% perfect cuz no one is perfect or can be perfect
Exactly! We’d all make these mistakes if we were in her position
@@hazeclarke Ikrrrr
About people who find Marinette's anxiety annoying. I've heard someone say that the worst haters are the ones who have the hated trait themselves but don't accept it. It's not impossible that those people have undiagnosed anxiety but every time they experience it, say to themselves something like 'Get a grip, you wet rug'
Of course they'd extend the same treatment to a character they relate to.
Thank you for addressing the double standard in this show. It's so frustrating when people blame Marinette for something Adrien also exhibits, but they don't address it, or address it to a less degree. It's also disgusting when people say she's a Mary Sue that never makes mistakes and then berates her for making mistake and being human.
Also, I partially agree with you on Marinette loving Adrien genuinely. She fell in love with his kindness, consideration, and gentle nature and all that. But reason why I can't fully agree is because I feel that she never really "got to know Adrien" prior to them dating. Whenever Adrien was around her, he was showing his "golden child" side to her, and they never really got to spend too much time together (mostly due to his busy schedule) for her to see his other traits. When they do get spend together, it's not long and Marinette is too busy romantacizing to really get to know him. Only time I can think of where this wasn't the case prior to them dating was during Risk where she was actually having a meaningful conversation with him rather than constantly picturing herself with him.
i agree that she didn't speak to him a great deal, but Marinette has always been around him. she's known after the gum incident of how wonderful he is. i don't think she needs to have a meaningful conversation with him for her to necessarily understand that
For your last point, I feel like oblivio showed that they like who each other truly are. Though they don't remember the events of oblivio so idk if that counts
We need this. People forget that a Mary Sue by definition is a character with no flaws. A person who can get away with murder. Spoilers ahead.
1) Marinette is a klutz
2) She was constantly bullied by Chloe and was seemingly the main target.
3) she was expelled from school. More than once, for something she was framed for.
4) Her friends believe someone they just met over her multiple times
5) She can't talk to guys she likes probably.
6)Adding onto point 2. The bullying literally got to a point where she would initially hate anyone who was "friends" with Chloe, she distanced herself from ever getting close to another boy and finding out all she can about said boy before even attempting to get close, which explains her initial attitude towards Adrien and her stalker behaviour.
Marinette often did bad things especially during the first seasons when it came to Adrien.
1. Used a lucky charm just to make Chloe and Adrien stop slow dancing
2. Took Max’s spot in a video game tournament to play with Adrien
3. Harshly called out Lila in front of Adrien unknowingly making the worst enemy of her life
4. Was willing to team up with Chloe to humiliate Kagami
5. When Chloe’s parents got akumatized together she chose Kagami to help only to get her away from Adrien which led to Chloe joining Monarch’s side and half the heroes identities getting exposed.
Even though Marinette may have only loved Adrien for his perfection before, I can tell in season 4 and 5 she has looked past that and is starting to like him for him. And I know Marinette has regrets for the bad calls/stuff she did. Marinette is nothing like Chloe and Lila; she shows remorse for her actions and unlike those two who will only love Adrien for his perfect life, Marinette loves him for being himself.
Exactly. I’m not denying she’s done bad things because she has. Because she’s not meant to be perfect. She’s a child and even as an adult I still make plenty of mistakes. She always tries to rectify what she’s done wrong
@@hazeclarkeexactly. And I'm glad you made this video. Can relate to her, being an adult is stressful
I didn’t see a remorse for stealing the phone tho 🤔
Esos nunca debe faltar xD ya siendo protagonista o no siempre van a cometer errores o a aquivocarse solo q al parecer nos estancamos mucho y no vemos en lo q como han avanzado, siempre se va los van a ver de lo peor del personaje si es q pasa por esto xD (y no se porque) y estoy muy deacuerdo
No siempre un protagonistas siempre sabra q hacer, como acturar o hay veces q nos dejamos y actuamos impulsivamente 🤷♀️ pero lo q no estoy deacuerdo es el echo de q ledybug no haiga lejido a cloe en vez de kagamy, si no me esos son cap finales no? Quiere decir q ledybug (marinette xd) ya le habia dicho q tenia q dejar der queen bee q creo q fue en (donde sabrina se akumatiza) ahora creo q no tiene nada q ver el echo q sea un familiar si fuera haci, muchos de los compañeros no habrían recibido sus miraculous ya haci mucho q la mayuria de los akumatizados son los padre o familia de los amigos de marinette? 🤔🤔🤷♀️🤷♀️
Marinette is my favourite character in Mlb and i was surprised to see all the hate towards her, she is a very well written character imo.
The only good things is that Marinette tries to be better and learns from her mistakes, she’s not a mary sure, she’s like everyone else, a flawed person who makes such bad mistakes.
Exactly!
Not going to lie, thought this was an April Fool's prank for a second because of the date, but I'm happy to find that it's not! So many good points!!
Lmao no 😂😂 and it’s after midday where I am 😂
I gotta say that you did a pretty good job on addressing the points that I and many of the other fans and people in the fandom brought up on why we dont like Marinette or even outright hate her. What I said about her is nowhere near the point of outright being disgusted by her presence of her character and when she had an anxiety attack, it made sense given the context of what happened and her overall perception of things that played out as they did. I still hold strong on my points of why I dont like her and while I respect your reasoning on why she is how she is, I cant still shake my general opinion of her because of seeing it too much from the previous 4 seasons and it being a fundamental aspect of her character. I appreciate you telling your own personal troubles and issues and that story with Aiden and how he handled the problem that you was fretting over with your collab shows his character in a good light and hes a legit guy and a good friend for you, and being that vulnerable with yourself and how you still deal with your anxiety to this day shows your inner strength and that makes me appreciate you even more as a content creator and as a person. I enjoyed watching this video and I did listen to all of your points and watched this video to the end, and heres to at least some good people starting to change their opinions of Marinette as the show goes on and we have more specials and that Miraculous Theatre Movie
thank you for being so respectful bestie 🥰 hoenstly at this point, i don't mind people who dislike her (i certainly don't like all the characters myself), but i don't understand the obsession of hating her that much that other people drive themselves crazy with it, you know?
@haze clarke Yeah. She's not even a real character and despite her flaws, the fact that people are just THAT driven to hate her and hold a personal vendetta against her tells more about them than why they hate her. Also, if they truly hate her, WHY WATCH THE SHOW???????? They can just leave it alone and watch something else instead of lingering and being pessimistic about it and ruining it for many other people AND children as well, which does them and the Fandom no good whatsoever
Thank you for showing up for Marinette. The fact that people spew such negativity towards her character is just not made talking to people about the show fun. I have tried my best more than once to come to her defense and subsequently the writers. We all have opinions but sometimes it can get to be too much. Love the channel btw.
It can be hard with his toxic this fandom can be. Just send them this video next time! 💖
For some reason, I just love to rewatch this video
🥰🥰🥰🥰
I totally agree with your opinions Haziepie, Marinette is known to make many terrible mistakes which did lead to people hating her very much but she's still a teenager and no one's so perfect, people make mistakes but what matters is how they learn from them, and she is shown to learn from it in Season 5 which is something I definitely love about her.
I'm glad we're on the same page.
we all make mistakes, especially when we're children
I also find it so weird that people call out Marinette stalking Adrien but never gives cat noir the same treatment for never accepting ladybug's feelings nand still continuing to pursue her over and over again
Exactly! Double standards
If anyone is a stalker it’s Lila.
no, if you watch people channels they do I can confirm they do.
@@moved18287 “SOME” define cat noir not everyone hates Marinette defense cat noir only Adrian in the relationship
Frrr
I'm so glad you made this video Haze. I've been going crazy defending Marinette from so many people all the time. But I have no problem to continue doing it.
*She can save the city even though she can barely wake herself up in the morning- epic 😂
Me neither ☺️
Adrien actually should be a mary sue at least to his parents because of the entire Senti thing he was actually created to be perfect and I think people miss that.
I completely agree with this video. Although personally, I do think this show is going to gey more mature as the seasons go by, I mean if it is going to stick to 12 seasons, it can't always have the same taste if you get what I mean.
I also hope that as the seasons go by, I hope we get to see development on characters like Nino, Max, Ivan, Mylene, even Socqueline. I hope she gets a miraculous, but before that happens I want them to develop her character more.
Same for Nino, as you may know about my theory, I really hope that if they stick to it, they give Adrien that supportive and protective shelter that he needs when or when he's not a hero.
I get Marinette is the main, but this is miraculous tales of Ladybug and "Cat Noir", by that logic, it means that the show is about both of them, so why can't Adrien have a supportive person like Nino, whilst Marinette has Alya.
Anyway here's a spoiler:
April Fools Haze
I would definitely like it for all the characters to get more development! But rn the show isn’t doing that because it isn’t an ensemble cast, so I don’t think it should be criticised for what it never was meant to be
@@hazeclarke yeah but some characters are getting development like, Zoe, Luka, Kagami, Felix, Alya. I would like it for some of the other characters to develop too.
I’m definitely hoping in a future episode Adrien tells Nino about his identity. In the meantime he has Luka who knows his identity from “Wishmaker”. I’m hoping in migration Luka will tell him that he knows. Luka is an amazing friend and Adrien can always talk him if he needs something
@@anonymousfan1008 yeah but from the looks of things, it doesn't seem like that happens because Luka is missing so far, so idk if it will happen.
Also, Luka knows both their identities, it is way too dangerous to be out and about with that knowledge.
I wouldn't mind it happening though.
As someone who dislikes Marinette as a character and finds her a bad role model, I enhoyed your video and I do agree that these fictional characters don't deserve hate. However many youtubers like Cyrus the Great exaggerate for comic relief. Not all people who say mean things about characters always mean it as they say it for comic relief. I don't think people hate Marinette as a person but more so as a character. Same goes for Zoe.
after looking at just cyrus' community posts, which call marinette a rapist, that's not comic relief. rape isn't funny
@@hazeclarke I know. I agree 💯. But to each youtuber their own. Some channels are intended for people who like bit of dark humour. Calling someone a rapist isn't comic relief but other memes could be classed as comic relief.
@@PancakeRights using misogynistic insults and sexualising 14 year old girls can't be okay even if it's a "joke"
Honestly I didn’t even know all these things were reasons people actually hated her. It’s absolutely disgusting that people hate Marinette because of having “too many” panic attacks. Like people, she only had one, and she’s just a teenager. She’s literally a year younger than me yet she handles things so well!!…Yes! Marinette gets ripped apart while Adrien does similar wrong things but doesn’t get called out, but Marinette does. Double standards!! Also loved the video! 💕
Marinette handles things so much better than i ever could! And I’m 26! She’s amazing 💖 so happy you liked it! 🥰
@@hazeclarke :)
I usually don't comment as I am a guy. I get panic attacks, too. It is important to address mental health with young people. That can be quite a challenge, but this show tries. Thank you for your honesty & openness.
it's no problem 💖
just pointing out that the definition of mary sue is not “lacking flaws”, it is “lacking realistic, story-relevant flaws” and/ or “flaws that are meant to be endearing”. furthermore, people use mary sue to refer to characters that are also irrelevantly over skilled and over-idealised.
And for those reasons too, Marinette is also not a Mary Sue
Another reason Why I think people hate Marinette so much is because there are some creators that Like to exaggerate their analyses of the show for comedic effect ( Like Cyrus the Great for example [ I don’t think this is a bad thing and I don’t hold anything against him, but I do believe that people tend to Take everything he says seriously ]) and since most people in this fandom are children, they are easily influenced by everything they Say and so they spread those kinds of negative opinions
That’s a good point!
there's truth to that but i really think he doesn't care about what impression he gives off. besides, he makes transphobic "jokes" and uses misogynistic insults towards the girls in the show and that really isn't okay regardless of whether or not he was "joking" (i'm talking about the community posts). he also sexualises them sometimes, it's really weird and he keeps doing it. like maybe for the sake of edginess or whatever, making one or two jokes about that is like still trashy but whatever. but he keeps doing it again and again, and he has a large audience and very few people call him out about it and they're not taken seriously. i still think he's a decent critic, i agree with many of his criticisms but as a person with a large platform he's really toxic and even bigoted (he unironically posted "straight pride" on pride month like what lol)
Hello! This comment is kind of long, and applies logic from a fandom I'm in, so please refrain from reading if that's your concern.
I don't want to get too deep into this, but the main reason I left the miraculous fandom was because of its toxicity. I never really liked marinette, but that doesn't mean I go and complain about her 24/7. That actually used to be the case, but then I just realized that this show was not for me and I kept getting tired of arguing with a bunch of 10 year olds who watch a kids show. My favorite show ever is the Precure franchise, and everyone keeps criticizing it for being a 'sailor moon ripoff' or being made for kids, when most of them have probably watched one season at max. There are currently 20 seasons of precure, and just because you don't like heartcatch or maho girls doesn't mean every season is like this. The precure character that I see get criticized the most is Aida Mana from Dokidoki precure. She always gets called a Mary Sue, so much so that her fandom nickname is literally Mana Sue. I definitely disagree with those points, and even if she were one, what's wrong with that? There are legit 77 precure (soon to be 78 with the hirogaru midseason cure) and the entire fandom gets mad when a SINGLE character has traits of a Mary Sue. Like go pack your bags and MOVE ON because dokidoki is literally 10 years old, and unless they're doing an Otona precure spin off, she's not coming back... Like all of her team members minus Aguri and maybe Alice, but including Regina are in love with this freaking girl. And honestly, I'm not too mad about it. It just shows how good of a leader she is and how much she cares for others. Her dream is to be the prime minister of Japan, she's not playing around with her leadership 😂. I apologise for this little rant, but I feel like a lot of this logic could apply to miraculous. The moral of the story is that toxic fandom members exist, and that their opinions shouldn't have to be the standard. Also it may be a good idea to develop an allergy to them as a defense mechanism, just sayin.
oh gosh im sorry you left due to the toxicity! honeslty i don't get how fandoms get like this in the first place
@@hazeclarke yea honestly most fandoms are like that for some reason. We should be working towards making them a more positive place, which is what most creators wanted to have in the first place. Miraculous will always have a special place in my heart but unfortunately the fandom is just not it.
Ngl i thought this was some sort of April fools joke lol but great points and great video as always
lmao thank you XD
Funny how people say that Marinette had a lot of pictures at home when adrien does the same thing he puts all his photos of ladybug in his trophies and has pictures of her in his laptop and HIS PHONE. Isn’t that also weird? Because if the fandom will bash her for having pictures of adrien then they should also bash him too because he does the same thing. Marinette have done many wrong things but adrien also is pushy with ladybug even when she made it clear that she wasn’t interested and her heart belonged to another boy but he still pursued her even after she said that. Plus the only reason she threw him in the garbage was because she crossed the line she had told him not once but more than twice but he still kept being a persistent nag. I mean it common for a human to lash out on another being. I know some of y’all lashed out on somebody because they kept on nagging like cmon. Y’all sympathize for adrien because his mom is gone but what about Marinette her parents neglect her. Yes they do and hear me out when she got accused what did her parents do they told her to drop the evidence they didn’t even try to defend her. She was also bullied by Chloe it was mentioned in the origins and dirisn ( don’t know how to spell it ) but she bullied her for 4 years and pulled an insensitive prank on her and tried to humiliate her by posting it online. And not only that but she puts cat noirs feeling above hers in kuro neko even though she replaced him ( it was plaggs idea ) she didn’t want to keep breaking his heart over and over. She has a lot of responsibility being the guardian, superhero, class representative, inspiring designer , school work and she till made time for catnoir.
The fandom makes Marinette be the evil bad villain because they don’t see both perspective and that’s the problem. They always sympathize with Adrien but if they were in Marinette shoes they would understand why she is the way she is. It’s all explained in the episode dirison she was bullied by Chloe for 4 years and it was mentioned in the origins on why she didn’t wanna see Chloe in the class. She also mentioned that the guy she loves won’t be friends with Chloe let me clarify that in the origins episode Marinette thought that he was bad as Chloe because he was friends with her because she saw him “ put the gum on her sit” but that wasn’t the case at all she misunderstood the whole situation and adrien was compassionate he even apologized to her when it wasn’t his fault at all and he was kind to her and that’s why she fell in love with him. And this also shows that she truly loves adrien and not the idea of him because whenever he vents to her she always listens and tries to help him in the episode risk ( I think ). And Mari is not a Mary Sue she has a lot of flaws but she’s learning and her going on a picnic date with adrien showcase that , she didn’t wanna make convoluted plans and if you know Marinette she hates being vulnerable she likes to take control and she hates confrontations that’s why when she fights she makes catnoir fight offense and her defense she still fights of course but she uses her yo-yo from a distance. Unlike Chloe Marinette actually realized her mistakes and is trying to unlearn all of those things.
Both Marinette and adrien are learning from their mistakes because in dirisin you can see that he is patient with Marinette which in catnoir is was pushy with his feelings.
Exactly! My only guesses are it’s because we spend more time with Mari but also some of it is routed in misogyny. He can do it but she can’t. He’s been creepy towards her idk how many times as Cat Noir and everyone is fine with it, of course, that doesn’t negate what she’s done towards Adrien, but let’s keep he same energy for everyone
It’s a big issue with the fandom. I don’t get why they don’t sympathise with her more. We see everything she goes through and people are still horrible about her, saying she’s being over dramatic when she’s not. They’d react no better in her situation
Agree with everything you said bestie! 💖
Thank you for sharing your struggles with anxiety! I also have extreme anxiety and it can be so frustrating when I start to spiral about things that no one else seems to notice or care about what so ever.
I will say I have been making a conscious effort to put myself outside of my comfort zone more and more for a few years now and all though I will always have anxiety I am in a much better state of mind then I use to be. For anyone who is struggling with similar issues I want you to know you are valid and there are coping mechanisms and resources that can help. You deserve to feel better and although it might take time it can get better!
totally get you! i've been trying to do the same and even though it's scary, it's making me less anxious about other things!
Miraculous is way to overhated tbh, like with Marinette people just straight up complain about things that doesn't make any sense, like with the part when someone said that she has too many panic attacks or she is perfect. I am happy that there are still people in this fandom that think twice about something and then say it online.
Ngl thé too many panic attacks comment got to me. Like too many?! She’s had 1! The show is definitely over hated
@@hazeclarke People even claimed she was faking it! And that she was being dramatic! It's awful!
I’ve noticed since season 4 Marinette and Alya have gotten SO much hate. It’s clear that it is racism and also double standards.
First of all when Alya found out about Mari’s identity people were villainising her and said she were gonna betray ladybug when 1 she was so supportive and respectful when she found out and 2 she literally helped Marinette get stronger with these magical charms. It’s so annoying cuz when Luka found out no one was villainising him and he did not have the right to keep their identities a secret he should’ve told them.
I’ve seen so many comments hating on her also because she believes Lila and I understand the frustration but maybe Mari hasn’t spoken to her about her lies she probably forgot due to the fact that Lila hasn’t been around only in Protection it seemed Marinette remembered about Lilas manipulation after consulting Kagami.
While Marinettes writing can be inconsistent cough cough Season 3 she really grew in Season 4. The writers really tried to make her look like she was in the wrong and make us feel bad for cat noir where as for me it turned out to be the opposite.
Cat noirs behaviour was appalling in certain episodes notably glaciator 2 where he didn’t respect LBs boundaries and when he finally did he completely forgot about it at the end.
In Hack-San he tried to cataclysm Scarabella due to his jealousy. He then says “no need to keep the cat in the loop” which is hypocritical as in The New York Special Cat Noir got upset at LB when he didn’t tell her he was leaving Paris aswell.
In Rocketear, yes I felt sympathy but it’s the way LB asked if he was okay and he said he was fine so how is LB supposed to know if he was alright if he bottles up his emotions.
Then his worst episode Kuro Neko where he didn’t even bother to transform to help LB and he wondered why he was being replaced. He then shows up when the villian is defeated and flirts with LB after having the stress of having to call on every hero to defeat the villain. He then gets angry and renounces his miraculous in the open for Gabe to have possibly gotten. All LB wants to do is save Paris and live a normal life but CN wants to just fool around and have LB all to himself
and then in the finale when he consults her if it was Scarabella or anyone else he wouldn’t have shown up it was only because she was alone and in a vulnerable state that he used it to his advantage.
People are so hypocritical to say “Marinette is a creepy stalker” when Cat Noir literally tried to kiss LB in Prime Queen twice without even consenting doing it again as Adrien in multiplication. Also in Glaciator he got really annoyed at LB when she didn’t turn up to his romantic setting even tho she said she were busy and then acted all arsey with her in the battle and then he finally understood she likes someone else he completely forgets about that in Frozer and acts immature again.
While Theo was overage and creepy in CopyCat when Cat Noir got jealous and said how him and Ladybug were a thing that is toxic masculinity this just makes LB seem like an object as CN has a say in whether they are together or not.
I’m not gonna say who but there is this one TH-camr that is hating on Marinette and Alya so much that their fans and supporters are agreeing there is so much racism in the fandom and they are also making “sensual jokes” about teenagers which I think is absolutely disgusting and needs to be called out.
Oh gosh Alya too! That’s awful. The only case I think alya would betray mari would be if she were akuamtised. I don’t think she’d ever do it willingly. But like you said with Luka, everyone’s fine with it. The double standards are horrible
There is definitely a lot of communication problems that were present between LB and CN in earlier seasons (not so much this season) but it’s an issue lying between both of them, not just solely LB’s fault
Omg sensual jokes?! They’re all children! That’s awful
Putting aside the fact that you're just parroting things that have been said by other people, none of those points are good.
Plenty of people (including me) do villainize Luka. This seems like selective obliviousness.
Lila claimed she was best friends with Ladybug. Alya should have picked up that Lila isn't honest the moment she discovered Marinette's identity. But what truly makes Alya bad in these cases is her complete disregard of what Marinette says, essentially accusing Marinette of being a liar all those times. "Risk" is the worst case of this.
Please explain how CN "completely forgot about it at the end". Also, you're blowing things out of proportion.
He did not try to cataclysm Scarabella "due to his jealousy", he thought she was a supervillain. Also, Ladybug making a similar mistake that she got angry over before makes her the hypocrite, not him. And the circumstances of these mistakes were quite different. CN didn't want to disappoint Ladybug. Ladybug just didn't think about CN at all.
In "Rocketear", how exactly was CN supposed to talk about what he just discovered without snitching on Nino/revealing his own secret identity?
"Kuro Neko" is indeed CN's worst episode, and I believe he is completely out of character there, yet you still managed to get things wrong. CN does not flirt during the beginning. And it was made pretty clear that CN's problem was that Ladybug doesn't trust him, not because "he wants to have LB all to himself".
As for the finale, you're just making crap up at this point. Nothing you say is supported by anything.
In "Prime Queen", the villain was threatening to kill people unless the duo "admitted their feelings". And CN stopped when Ladybug told him to. As for "Multiplication", I think you need a better understanding of French customs (La Bise).
Does Adrien make mistakes? Of course. Do I think he's a good character? No, because of unrelated reasons. But is he the monster you're trying to paint him as? Absolutely not.
And I assume that the TH-camr your complaining about is Cyrus the Great (who I despise), which I find a little weird since the majority of your arguments seem to be parroted from him.
@@diegogonzalez5273 I only agree on his depiction of Adrien/ Cat Noir his opinions on anyone else is disgusting and brainwashes people into hating the characters. I watch the cartoon hotspots take on the fandom during season 4 and all of her points were valid no need to get arsey at me geez
@@Hope4aisha So if you know he's a bad person, surely you must realize that his arguments against Adrien were made in bad faith?
you my idol , i was start too think that there aren t non toxic pepole in fandom !!
🥺🥺🥺🥺 thank you so much 🥰
Haven't finished the full video yet (might edit in something if I have something to say about the end), but just wanted to say your PhD sounds really interesting and I hope it goes well! It would be some important research and I hope it has some kind of impact, so all that hard work won't be for nothing. I'm just starting my dissertation this summer, I can't imagine how stressful a PhD is 😅.
Thank you so much! It’s definitely a lot of hard work but I know it’ll be worth it!
@@hazeclarke Absolutely!
I feel so bad I’m just now watching this. I listened to this on my way to work.
If I don’t watch the full video before work I’ll definitely catch up on the rest after work.
You’re amazing Haze ❤ I’m loving this video so far. I think to catch up on your videos I think I watched 3 of your videos yesterday.
oh don't worry about it bestie! you don't have to watch my videos the second they release! they're there for when you have time 🥰 i'm glad you're enjoying this so far
I don't understand why Marinette gets so much hate! Sure, she has faults and makes mistakes, but she gets consequences for things she does wrong! Why hate someone who's already paying for her mistakes?
Exactly. It’s ridiculous
I’ll say. Marinette is someone who regrets her bad actions unlike Chloe and Lila.
@@anonymousfan1008 That's true! Her moral compass is what makes her relatable
Thank you Bestie for giving that video to us!!! ❤ It is absolutely lovely and I seriously can't agree more with you! Everything was explained so perfectly. You really did a great job in defending Marinette.
I absolutely do not understand why people hate on characters or hate in general if you don't like something just move on. Especially this is a kids show it's meant to be for children if they don't like they don't have to watch it.
But I also feel a little sorry for those people because they seem like they were not allowed to make mistakes at all in their childhood and were not allowed to feel sad or anxious or something.
But what I hate the most about this is that all of this hate in the fandom doesn't stay on the characters or the show it goes to attacking the creators of the show and other people of the fandom and that's just so sad.
I totally understand that you got upset about the hate over her anxiety. I got upset too when you said this. I hate it when people are like why are you so anxious or you have no reason to be anxious or depressed or something or making fun if other people's fears.
Thank you for telling us about your anxiety and your panic attack with the story with Aidan. I love you for that Bestie😌🥰 I have anxiety /low self-esteem too and everything felt so relatable. I always feel less horrible when I know that other people feel the same!
So I'm really happy and grateful that your community is so lovely that we can feel safe here without so much hate going on that's really amazing!❤️
Ahhh im so glad you liked it! 🥰 like people are allowed to hate characters (I don’t like all the characters in the show), but I don’t get the obsession around it. But yes you’re so right, the hate for Marinette or whoever goes to the writers and actors and it’s disgusting
I’m so glad it helped with your anxiety! It did make me nervous to talk about it, I won’t lie, but I feel better for doing it now I know it helped you
@@hazeclarke ❤️
@@hazeclarke Yess exactly! This obsession about is just too much.
Aww I can totally imagine how hard it is must been to talk about it! But I'm really glad you did🥰
A really well done video. I always feel like people just enjoy hating on Marinette when there's no need.
Thank you bestie 🥰
There are plenty of fans who love her, or love both her and Adrien equally in different ways (like me). The haters WISH they spoke for the fandom, but based on what I’ve observed most of them just hate her because she’s everything they wish they could be (I looked at their history posts on Reddit and even saw one of their photos and let’s just say their subconscious jealousy of her might be because they probably wish they looked like her and had a loving boyfriend and a circle of close friends. One of the most venomous haters on Reddit I remember was an obese Haitian girl with bad skin who constantly complained about feeling like a “loser” and an “underachiever” (her words in verbatim) and she had a boss who pushed her out of the way at her job and her family members bullied her over her weight and her roommates called her a loser as well so I understand hurt people often lash out (even if it’s against cartoon characters) however I think that person would benefit from therapy and work on becoming a better person instead of taking her hate out of cartoon characters and even people in real life (she talked about how much she hates white and Asian girls her age). It’s just sad.
Gurl just roasted all Marinette haters in the thumbnail
😂😂😂😂
I think that sometimes Marinette (not just her, but the video is about her) ends up suffering with some of the writing decisions as well. For example, you brought up the fact that Marinette suffers from the consequences of her mistakes, which I agree for the most part. But, sometimes the consequences don't feel right. In Gang of Secrets she tells Alya that she is LB. I totally understood why she did it and I don't blame her considering the situation. However, we never see how this affects CN and her relationship with him directly because she never tells him! And again, I don't blame the character of Marinette, I think the writers just forgot/didn't want to include that for some reason. So in s4 we do see CN and LB growing apart and it certainly back fires because they become so disconnected they lose in the end. But because some things are never brought up after they happen, the conflicts just feel unfinished and unresolved. Hence why the sentence " she doesn't suffer consequences" surfaces so much, imo. And again, I think this affects Adrien, Alya and even Nino, but since the video is about Marinette I only talked about her case.
while i can see what you're saying, i think that's what they were aiming for. they wanted to break LB and CN apart so they could come back together stronger for S5 when it was just them on the team! it was kind of the point of S4
@@hazeclarke I didn't mean that LB and CN shouldn't have broken apart, maybe I didn't word my thoughts properly. I was trying to say that because certain things like Mari telling Alya she is LB or Adrien trying to create a persona for LB to fall in love with him were never brought up again, It feels like those events were left without consequences. I feel like both of those things would play a huge role on the heroes becoming disconnected, but It just doesn't feel like they had the impact they should have because they were forgotten.
I have the same feeling that writers are more to blame for some Marinette's actions than Marinette herself. Prolonged "Creepynette" state in seasons 1-3 are writers fault, because writers were doing everything to stop her natural grow.
I think a lot of the hate comes from the creator itself also. There will be hate, but him barking back just multiples it by 100.
I don't know about the misogyny thing. A lot of the same people who hate Marinette likes Chloe.
You can still say misogynistic things towards mari while liking Chloe
I see what you're saying but Marinette has been a stalker in a bad partner in like the first three seasons, not only that her power is quite literally Limitless, she has three powers, while other people only have one and while her partner only has one power even though it said that they were supposed to be equals, and no one really calls her out on the bad thing she does except if they're Chloe or Lila, and Thomas him so you know the creator of the show Joey said that Marinette was the smartest character in the show now I don't believe that, but it feels like he's heading in that direction. This show has been good since season 2
As shown in the video, by definition Marinette has not been a stalker and imo she has not been a bad partner. And are the powers her Miraculous gives her a valid reason for all of the vitriol thrown at her?
Judging by the views on the videos which hate on Marinette vs the ones that defend her she not well liked by the "Fans"
lol very true sadly
Just the fans in the fandom though, I doubt the people out of the fandom hate her this much
Well. That blew my mind that people hate Marinette for asking for help! I have the exact opposite problem. I get mad at her for not asking for help ENOUGH! I wish she would delegate more to Cat or Rena and take some of the pressure off herself. 😵💫
Who is out here saying you can't ask for help at (insert random age)? You can and should ask for help at any age. You will always be dealing with new challenges in life and there is no shame in needing a hand!
Me too! I hate asking for help! But I wouldnt criticise someone for asking for it either especially when they’re a child
Okay, I finally finished watching your video! Honesty, I love that you put more details and depth about Marinette. I honestly mixed feelings about her because.. a lot of fans started hating on her.. I mean, yes she's not a perfect main character but we could see a lot of mistakes she has in every episode and that's okay. Sometimes in life, you WILL always make mistakes (twice or more) until you realize why you did that. For example, we've seen her did the same mistakes twice because of Adrien, HER loves one in season 3 and season 4 finale, which she finally realized and not to do the same mistakes again in season 5. Plus... they're teenagers so of course they're not fully developed at this stage.
Marinette's panic attack disorder part makes me upset because.. it happens in real life and you can't really think straight in the situation. People actually make fun of her like that which is.. disgusting.. utterly disgusting.. Honestly, I do have anxiety too so I totally understand why you feel nervous while making it but.. on a positive note, you did a great job filming the whole video (which took a lot of time and energy there) because you put so much effort into one hour video.
Anyway, yes, Marinette does have self-esteem issues when it comes to Adrien and she talked bad about herself that she's a terrible guardian because it's her fault. Truthfully, I think we have all been there especially young people because sometimes we tend to say bad things to ourselves which can lead to depression, but at the same time we're humans. But fans get so toxic on her like "She's a terrible person and stalked Adrien." But now in season 5, they said "She talked bad about herself just because she's a terrible guardian." Like.. what do you expect from her? It literally proved that they hated Marinette and her character. I never understand them these days.
of course we all make mistakes! but kids have got to learn that it's okay to through her! and yeah she's a child. so many people forget that
oh gosh seeing people make fun of her anxiety upsets me so much. and honestly the anxiety section was difficult to film, so that means a lot to hear!
I think that the reason a lot of people hate Marinette is because she doesn't make sense as the MC. Think about it, the show is about Adrien and his dad as the main villain. If they wanted a female lead, they could just have made him a girl. Marinette had no connection with Master Fu or with the real plot and she's not well written. Her obsessive behaviour with Adrien is never explained and explored until Derision and even then it is blamed on Chloe and came way too late, S5. If Marinette had more central ties to the plot and her behaviour was explained and explored from the start I think more people would like her.
i see what you're saying, however, the moment adrien is the lead, the show becomes so much more serious and the show would no longer fit the 8-10 audience. but that's not to say adrien shouldn't get more screen time because he totally should. he soemtimes feels like a side character
@@hazeclarke I agree
At this point they should change the title of the show to just ladybug.
@@hazeclarke I get you. The show wouldn't be for 8-10 people if it was serious but even then, it is an animated show and there are no sexual/swear words involved. They could have deleted Adrien completely and simply made Gabriel a diluted villain and made Marinette the main with more ties to Master Fu.
Haze, in spite of everything, I don't think Marinette needs any defense. She's as flawed as we are, but with good intentions, with a ❤️ of gold, seeing only the good in people (which is her greatest flaw)... 😏
Sadly I wish I could agree but I can’t. The hate I see for online is disgusting
@haze, many of us beat ourselves up for what is objectively not really important... I imagine that some of us are worse than others... but it's hard to be introspective and not do this to some degree.
I'm glad you can at least recognize that Adien probably didn't even register this. I sincerely hope he watches this and then confirms that it was not, in the slightest, a big deal.
I know that, for me, having examples of times where I inflated a situation in my head has helped me figure out where to draw that line over time, and it happens less as a result.
Sending lots of love and hugs. You're amazing and super smart! Thanks for this analysis and all your videos! 🥰
looking back at it now, i know my panic attack was unneccesary, but in the moment i couldn't see it. i was just so annoyed at myself for thinking i'd wasted his time. although is it weird that i hope he doesn't know? 😅 i don't want him to think less of me. although again, just my anxiety talking, because he's lovely and probably would never think that of me
thank you so much 🥰
@@hazeclarke I completely understand! And I have done basically exactly this to myself in other situations (made myself sick over something that the other person didn't give a 2nd thought to).
Like I said, with time and experience, hopefully you can better decide when something is truly panic worthy, but I can completely see how this happens to anyone who is introspective and genuinely cares about others.
I don't think Aiden will think any less of you. If anything, my guess is that he will confirm that it wasn't a big deal to him and maybe, after it's all talked about, you can both laugh about it. 😊
I know it is blindlinly distressing in the moment... and easier to see after everything is resolved, that it in fact wasn't a big deal... however try to use that knowledge in the future to help you stay calm. It has helped me.
Another thing that has helped me is to make a list, when I am calm, of truly earth shattering things... Thankfully, most of the things on that list have not happened to me, ever... but have happened to people in history or actively happening now to someone somewhere.
That list helped to ground me to what I really actually care to protect myself and my loved ones from. And donate money to charities that help people in those situations... everything else I can breathe through...do my best... but you win some and you lose some and that's okay.
Try not to stress... afterall, we are all only human. ❤️
Hi bestie, what did you think of the new zelda game?
so far im a little apprehensive about it but I'm looking forward to playing it!
I agree with you, Haze that we should not hate a character. Marinette isn't a bad person as she's just a fictional character. Even if i don't like her, i respect your opinion but do you think she deserves to be Ladybug?
absolutely i do. she's kind, caring and intelligent. she does let other factors cloud her judgement, but she's 14yo. of course that happens
@@hazeclarke 👍👍
Cyrus the great should watch
dear god no XD
I wish he shits on your videos and gets the entire fandom to hate you.@@hazeclarke
Haze, thank you for this video. Marinette gets a lot of hate from the fandom, which is misogynistic because people have double standards for Marinette, as they hate her for having flaws, being perfect, being female, and being the main character in general. But the hate also stems from many Chloe and Lila supporters because they believe it's Marinette's fault that they are the way they are. When it's not, Marinette didn't do anything to Chloe to make her bully her and for not giving Chloe the miraculous anymore and how it's her responsibility to make her a better person when it's not. Two, Marinette has zero reasons to trust or like Chloe after everything she's done not just to her but the entire school, and just because Marinette learned about Chloe's family life and how awful her mother is to her, she's still not responsible for changing her, Marinette gave Chloe many chances to change and be a better person hell Ms. Bustier told her to do so in Zombizou. Still, Chloe didn't take them, and Marinette isn't going to continue; she's done what she could, and that's that.
The same issue with Lila people makes it seem that it's Marinette's fault that she started lying when that's not true; she was lying about everything even before Marinette confronted her as Ladybug, and I would argue even if Marinette didn't confront her as Ladybug, it's evident that Lila would've seen Marinette as a threat for Adrien's affection as she did with Kagami in Oni-chan. And I've said it before, and I'll say it again Marinette wants nothing to do with Lila and the war she declared on her because while Marinette still has her guard up, she is not participating in it. At the same time, Lila has gone a complete stalker and obsessive over Marinette, as seen in Perfection that Marinette needs a restraining order against her.
This is on a personal level, but I see myself in Marinette. It's one of the reasons why she's my favorite character because I can relate to her with being seen as the start student/role model for her classmates to follow/teacher's pets (it's never good to be the teacher's pets and I'm not just saying it because people make fun of you for it, there's more to it), putting a lot of pressure on myself to get everything done to the point I could enjoy life. In these moments, I was a lousy friend until I fixed those mistakes and had battles with anxiety that I felt that I couldn't rely on anybody for fear of burdening them. So when I see people being disgustingly mean towards Marinette, I feel attacked, and also, it's gotten to the point where the fandom is toxic (I know that not all fandoms are perfect, but still). So thank you again for this video and for shutting up those a**holes and having them eat their words. (Also, I would argue it's thanks to Master Fu that Marinette puts Chat Noir in the dark at times because she didn't like it at first and wanted to include him, but over time it came to the point it's second nature to her that she doesn't realize it until he finally said something and they were able to work through it.)
Ah yeah a lot of Chloe and Lila supporters do seem to be leading the hate against her! Chloe and Lila’s behaviour are not the fault of Mari, and yes, like in zomebiezou and vulpine, she does sometimes rile them up, but they are still inherently bad people
I relate to her too! I get what you mean by feeling attacked when she is. Like when I made the post asking for the reasons, I never thought anxiety would be on there, and I did feel quite attacked by it. And yes it’s absolutely more master fu than LB who leaves CN in the dark in S1-3!
What you've said about people calling her a Mary Sue and then listing all her bad traits; she gets away with wrongdoings and doesnt face consequences. Her bad traits are not acknowledged as bad and she's essentially perfect with an ideal lifestyle. You would be right, IF her behaviour was pointed out and she was punished. In reality, she herself causes the most akumatisations.
A bad person who does a lot of bad things and never faces consequences and rarely if never gets their behaviour pointed out, they are still a Mary Sue. A Mary Sue can make mistakes if they are DEPICTED as perfect.
And also, about the stalker thing, she follows Adrien around, breaks and enters, cat blanc, follows him deliverately to another country, Shanghai special, spies on him and Lila, Volpina. That IS STALKING. I respect your opinion but I love Kagami and think this show should be focused on Felix, Kagami and the senti theories. I think she's a problematic and bad protagonist and character. I was sexually assaulted and the abuser got away with it, so i genuinely feel for her not facing consequences for her excess romantic behaviour which is just ABNORMAL. And I think a lot if not most would agree. We don't hate Marinette, we hate her character and how she's written. Kids show is not an excuse for bad writing.
that's still not a Mary Sue. not facing consequences doesn't make someone a Mary Sue. Chloe rarely faces them and she's sure as hell not one. and Mari is 100% punished, she's just not punished in the way *you* want. all of bad actions are done to get closer to Adrien. and the result? she doesn't get closer to Adrien. she only gets closer to him when she talks to him
100% agree kids shows are not an excuse for bad writing (and ngl i have been overall disappointed by the quality of the writing this season) and i am so sorry that happened to you
while her behaviour is bad and i do not condone it and i think this could be done in loads of different ways eg misunderstandings and subtext between them, it literally does not fit the definition of stalking. I actually had someone stalking me online not long after the start of my channel and threatening me and i had to prove it all, so as someone who has been stalked, what mari is doing is not that, but again, i wish she didn't do what she does in the show and it was shown in a better way
however it is contradictory to say we don't hate mari, just her character... those mean the exact same things?
Just wanted to come back and say sorry once again for what you went through and I’m sorry if you felt that I brushed over it in my reply. I can’t imagine how awful it was
@@hazeclarke It's ok bestie. I'm only a teen too! I acc agree that she's not a bad person and we certainly shouldn't hate her even if in my eyes she isn't the best character.
@@hazeclarke I have recently found your channel and haven't watched all your videos, but I don't think you've spoken about Master Fu. Can I hear your thoughts on him? Hearing different thoughts and opinions is really cool even if you don't agree. I like the fact that you are quite respectful in giving your opinions and respect everyone's thoughts, so I'd love to hear yours too!
@@hazeclarke Thanks for sympathising :)
I am happy u had the courage to call out against Misogyny. I mean as an now above 30 adult in a South Asian country both this concept and the stigma against Psychiatric Disorders is high.
And I'm a Male. For Expressing my emotions, in childhood at school, I have been rebuked. "Man up". " Be a boy" 🤢..( I went to a very prestige boy's school BTW) So disgusting when u reflect on it. I took have undergone panic attacks and I remember how distressing it was for me. And I also how ppl had labelled it as 'overreacting', 'getting freaked out for no reason', 'pretending to be ill' etc. Believe those comments add hurt to the hurt of the panic attack. I'm still taking treatment myself and there are situations which exactly freaks me out and make me anxious. That fear u might get another attack is enough to drive u out of ur mind.
Anxiety, Depression and Panic attacks r no joke, no pretend attention seeking behaviours or ever a 'luxury.' If a person gets a bone fracture they r not stigmatised. then why is this change in neurocircuitary stigmatised.
I started when I was doing my medical internship.
And now I'm a trainee in Psychiatry.
Yeah.. Go ahead question me..Can someone with Anxiety and Depression help another. Beleive me u can better than anyone else. Like Haze clearly said out and spoke against stigmatising Anxiety those who experience it know how traumatizing it is and how much support they need at that moment. U sound confident but u aren't. Exactly like when I'm ready to do a clinical discussion. And unfortunately there are some so called Psychiatry 'Professionals' who add insult to injury and also support unhealthy toxic gender stereotypes.
The discrimination for a woman with anxiety is terrible. For men it is even worse. The disgusting gender stereotyping! 🤢. I admire ur bravery to voice ur opinion Haze. 💪. We r right there with u.
oh gosh my PhD is actually looking at stigma against mental health in Asia! so i can't imagine how bad it truly is to experience, especially due to gender roles. but sadly it's similar everywhere. panic attacks are awful to have so im so sorry you had to go through all of this
I don't personally like nor dislike Marinette I'm in the middle, but she's lying a little too much no hate no shame. I full respect her as a character.
What does she lie about? Other than excuses for when she’s being ladybug, she often tells the truth
Tbh I used to THINK I didn't like Marinette when I was a lot younger, but now that Im slightly more mature and have a better perspective on the show, Ive realized the thing I hated WASN'T Marinette, it was the WRITING. She's a TERRIBLY written protagonist, but it's not the characters fault. The writing isn't CONSISTENT enough for it to be the characters fault. Its the same thing with Chloe, the writers keep doing these poor girls dirty smh
honestly all the characters have inconsistent writing at this point
@@hazeclarke yeah, Miraculous has just. Stopped caring abt consistency at rhis point...
So this was unnerving. I'm watching the video, feel like I have something to say, pause, comment, and then resume the video to hear Haze say the exact thing!
Thank you for making this, Haze!
Ahhh that’s awesome bestie! 🥰💖
Hi besti ❤ amazing job
Thank you 🥰
I was on TH-cam and I saw that as of typing this, a trailer for Protection, episode 16, came out, but the trailers came out months ago. How does that make sense?! If there's a logical explanation for that, could someone please tell me. Thanks.🤔😕
This is the official trailer!
@@hazeclarke Ok, thanks. :)
I have had my moments with Mari and the fact she is so bad at confronting situations and wanting to control everything I like this season as we see things differently we see she lost everything but as cat said he is still here and always will be so she still had most important person with her and realised because of her lack of skills with confrontation is so bad she hurt cat instead of protecting him and realised her mistakes I also look at origins differently after derision and understanding maris reasons more and what she has been through and her obsessions and why
I agree with everything you said, and she also seen the future in cat blanc, and had really paranoid with things and having nightmares about it (besides the Adrian being a crazy Chloe lover nightmare) because if I seen the future, I would have nightmares about it and paranoid of it, and marinette is going through that phase where she is crazy in love with someone (aka Adrien)
Are you gonna make a video on any of the other characters?
I’m planning on Chloe but not until after the season! Did you have any suggestions?
@@hazeclarke Alya, Nino, Su Han.
Do you wanna dm me on Instagram/discord about the hate you see about them
@@hazeclarke I will, once I've done the reasearch on them, and found my points.
I'll have one big essay, each essay about each of these characters.
I blame ~certain TH-camr's~ hatred for writing decisions/characters disguising their hatred as bad character writing for the massive amounts of slandering of Marinette's character. Some people believe if a character just reaches two or three of the criterias of the "social definition" it constitutes them as a Mary Sue which is not the case.
People like manipulating the definition so they don't have to do much work in discrediting a piece of writing and get the audience to think how they do/agree and it's prevalent in the more modern cartoon analysis community.
Any rando can just go up to the microphone claim they're a source to look up to and get a huge audience, it's only going to increase.
If the audience doesn't analyze for themselves or other TH-camrs don't try to disprove them, they are left with a very negative view of the character and start to develop confirmation bias. Any new scenes with the character will only be viewed if it comfirms their previous assumption or they'll try very hard to make it fit into their narrative of the character.
oh gosh yes the defintion has certainly been manipulated to fit their wants! at this point it is like no one knows what it means
I don't watch too many other TH-camrs for miraculous... I watch you, cartoon apocalypse, and smarty pants...
Thankfully, the three of you don't do any of the misogynistic comments... I'm saddened to find out that this is the case... unfortunately not super surprised... but sad nonetheless. Thanks for bring it to light.
I’m glad the three of us don’t ☺️
In my opinion I don't think she's a BAD person and I disagree with the people who pick on her every mistake and dont defend her at all. I think she's a great person for trying her best and saving the world, but i just think she's a poorly written character and some QUITE BAD things she does are portrayed as funny yet she isn't punished. For example, in Copycat she stole Adrien's phone and got away with it. I respect your opinion 💯 but I would slughtly disagree as i feel she is a bad protagonist and badly written character, I've ended up losing a lot of respect for her after the s5 finale. She would make more sense if her behaviours were explained, elaborated and called out upon. Adrien tbvh makes a better mc as he has more plot relevance.
Yes she was punished. Everything she does is to get closer to Adrien and that doesn’t actually happen until Risk when she speaks to him normally. She’s just not punished in a way that’s satisfying to you and that’s where the difference lies
@@hazeclarke Yes I understand that. I just think Adrien makes more logical sense, they could have made a female character for Adrien and made her the main. Because the main story, villain arc, senti theory and plot is more linked with Adrien. I would have loved to see more Emilie backstory. I think Emilie being evil and being the next hawk moth would be a better twist. What about you?
@@hazeclarke You're right about that. She is punished, but it's best if she is punished differently, like by apologizing or getting told off by the other person. Not necessarily yelled at or severely punished, but called out, an imposed consequence and better if her character developed more. We can all have and share our opinions but what's important is that we respect eachother 💕
2:15 I've seen videos about it and in my opinion the scene is massively taken out of context! From what I've seen about the comic She sees a bunch of guys hauling boxes in a creepy alleyway and assumes they're stealing (because they're doing it in a creepy unlit alleyway!!!) Not because they're black!
And then she talks to them and they're really nice to her and she realizes she was wrong.
That scene is definitely taken out of context to fuel people's hate for Marinette tbh. But I understand how some people could've interpreted it that way, just kinda sucks that a lot of people always have such bad faith interpretations of stuff. 😅
Ahh I see! I’ve only seen brief glimpses of it here and there so I wasn’t sure!
yes it is because they are black…………shes not racist but the whole comic was about the guys being black.
@@Howaboutyes11 is it?? From the analysis vides I've seen they didn't mention it-
Maybe the person I got the analysis from didn't do a good job at describing the scenes then.. I'm sorry!
Thanks for the video of Marinette Appreciation From,Gabe!
🥰🥰🥰
I would love if you could make a in defense of kagami video even tho I know you don't like her so much since she is my favorite character or a in depth video for her .
I know I am late sorry but can you make longer videos since I listen to this one when I was cleaning but love your videos keep on going bestie ❤🎉
i'll think about it!
Yh before I wasn’t an active member of the fandom as well
Danm I am a total 5 hours late but ANYwho I TOTALLY agree with this video however something I would say is that plp just hate and TRY to find any way SHAPE oR FORM to hate mari like one time i saw someon write a whole ass novel about how mari is to "dramatic" because she had to many panic attacks and shes to CHESSY???!!! First of all shes a *ahem* TEEEEEEENager and second of all shes had ONE panic attack that was in strike back and THRID of all that "chessy" part about her is a SIDE every single ass character in ANY show has a sassy side like with chloe likr with adrein and the fact they say its DRAMATIC!???!!? bRuH shes had a couple sassy sences and we are BARELY getting any of that seriously when will this fandom ACTUALLY have a cell??!! 🤦♀️
that's defititely true! as i saw in the video, she literally can't do anything right!
I do agree that Marinette is not a Mary sue but when people say that she is. I get it because this Fandom has a weird definition for Mary sue because a lot say Mary sue when the plot goes out of its way and make characters act out of character to make Marinette look better like Kim and Chloe in Derision and also when Marinette wins a fight because of stuff that doesn't makes sense like in Revolution when Ladybug and Catnoir just chose not to detranform. I know its like mentally grown up that matters. But its still feels very plot armor and a bunch of bull crap.
and also I can't be mad at haze for not Understanding that when people say Mary sue in this fandom it normally means that a character has to much plot armor. because She just going off what people said and using logic to say the people are wrong. Because Marinette isn't a Mary sue, She has plot Armor.
and this thing where character with plot armor get called Mary sue. is not just Marinette it also happens to Lila. So if you have plot armor they get call Mary sue other then Felix because well Felix is amazingly.
oh that revolution thing was weird XD if they mean plot armour, then they should say that, no one should be using incorrect terms
How many seasons are they planning to have for miraculous?
8 atm!
Season 5 was originally going to be the last but it got extended. I’m hoping in a future season we learn more about Lila and what made her the way she is now.
Hey haze I have a question
go for it!
@@hazeclarke have you watched a show called Beyblade
I agree
Impressive video!
Thank you bestie! 🥰
Omggggg I have skitzophrenia and its so cool to hear about somebody I admire having similar issues to me, ty for sharing this 😁😁❤❤
It’s no problem bestie 🥰
The only problems I have with Marinette is that she's obsessed with Adrien. Adrien isn't freaked out by her but probably because he hasn't seen everything she's done.
And he did look kind of uncomfortable in Troublemaker and Puppeteer 2 when he saw those pictures and when she almost kissed him. I wouldn't call that harassment because she didn't know it was him but that was still very creepy of her.
Also in past seasons we can see that she doesn't want any other girl to be close to him. In Volpina she completely humiliated a girl she just met who was just telling lies about being friends with her. I'd be mad at that but I wouldn't go that far (and she literally only did it because Lila was talking to Adrien).
She also stopped Adrien and Kagami from having their first kiss in Heart Hunter because she was jealous. In Animaestro she also tried to embarrass Kagami in front of Adrien because she didn't want them to go to Japan together.
She also lied to her parents who were really excited for her to go to Shanghai to learn the language and culture but she just wanted to go there to see Adrien.
Also her relationship with Adrien didn't really go anywhere till the season 4 finale. There were some really sweet moments between them but I didn't really care about then until the season 4 finale.
Also I just don't think she's a relatable character. She's too dramatic and the only time I could relate to her is at the start and end of season 4.
But I don't understand why people have a problem with her anxiety. I've had a lot of panic attacks this year due to reasons I'm not really sure about. But it can happen to anyone and the panic attack she had was completely normal for a teenager.
Also I know this is unrelated to the video but when you were talking about the story with Cartoon Apocalypse I could literally relate so much. I panic a lot for basically no reason. I haven't been diagnosed for anxiety because I'm scared that if I ask my parents they'd think I'm being too dramatic and have nothing to be anxious about 😅.
That is true, but as long as she hasn’t harming him, then I don’t see the problem with the obsession. She never gets anywhere with it. And in P2, tbf to M, she did think he was a statue, as soon as she found out he wasn’t, she was super embarrassed and got very upset. It was creepy, yes, but she didn’t know it was him. I don’t think it’s fair to lay all the blame on her here
And again, in volpina, she paid for her mistake, but imo (although it should have been done nicer), people who lie should be called out. While I understand Mari’s motivation in that moment was due to Adrien, it doesn’t mean she should have let what Lila was doing slide. Same with animaestro and Shanghai special. Mari gains very little for her behaviour
It’s totally fine if you don’t relate to her! Personally I do. I’m very over dramatic XD and was when I was a teenager
Oh gosh bestie I’d talk to your parents! If you get this many panic attacks, I think you should be seeking some further help 💖
❤️💜💕💜💕💜❤️💙❤️💙❤️🌹💜💕💜🌹❤️🌹💜🌹💜🌹💜❤️💙💙💙❤️❤️❤️💙💗💙❤️💙💜💜❤️💜💙💙💙💙💙💙🌹
By the fact this released on April fools
It’s all a Joke!
Yay!
Jk jk
Live laugh love marinette
Why does your reaction about the missing audio from Aidan’s video sound Like something I would feel too ? 💀😭
Should I be concerned ?
Ooof well perhaps you have anxiety?
I can’t believe people are hating her so much for having anxiety. That’s bonkers.
I’m 25, and have so much anxiety around a guy I like. I bawled in my car driving home after talking to him.
She’s 14. Give the girl a break.
Omg I can barely talk to the guy I have feelings for sometimes because of anxiety. I had a panic attack in front of the man I last went on a date with
@@hazeclarke I hope he was kind to you when you had the attack.
That’s definitely rough , bestie
And spoilers, but it needs to be said.
She is in her every right to have anxiety on her crush, who happens to be friends with her bully, as she has been heartbroken by a crush who was also friends with Chloe before due to a prank gone wrong.
i love marinette cursed images.
I feel like people are getting “marry sue” confused with just basic character design. She is pretty basic and there’s tons of characters like her, therefore “she’s a marry sue” when she’s really not. And there’s nothing wrong with her character being basic, the thing about basic is that it’s COMMON in real life which makes her relatable. Could she be more dynamic? Sure, but is it still a kids show where the characters are kind of supposed to flat and not super nuanced so that KIDS can understand the character? Y e a h
And on the topic of stalking? I mean, come on, you’ve never had a crush go a little off the rails in middle school? She’s 14, let her have her weird fantasies.
Some of y’all need to look up what “suspending disbelief” is
agreed! she's meant to be a role model, and therefore she needs to be relatable!
Please pin me Haze!
Come on
Let's all forget about Marinette
Haze, you are the new Ladybug from s6 on out
That solves all issues
We may hate Marinette but everyone loves Haze!
😂😂😂
Speak for yourself. Plenty of fans love Marinette (or Marinette and Adrien equally in different ways-like me). Maybe you only see haters because you hate her and only listen to others that do. But they don’t represent the whole fandom. Some of us frankly don’t have time to hate on cartoon characters 🤷♀️ life is too short
@@Passionate_Aria life is too short to argue so believe what you want
@@PancakeRights Ok. Same for you 😼
Lol it’s lila’s birthday today
I heard 😂
💕
😂😆
32:53 I understand why Marinette did that tho
But the cat noir stans, not so much
I like Marinette a lot and many times I see myself in her, but I'm sometimes getting annoyed with her obssesive behaivor towards Adrien and anxiety. Not to degree to straight hate her, but to at least to roll my eyes. While I dislike a lot her stalkish actions, I realized recently that I must admit that she never made Adrien uncomfortable by this, which you also pointed in your video, what we cannot say about Chat Noir (dark side of LadyNoir is a material for separate video assay), and many people seems to forget about it. However, I think that the main thing why Marinette creepyness annoyes me so much is that it is overexplored. I'm watching Miraculous from the very beginning (seriously, I was hooked up on Stormy Weather and I'm watching this show since then) and in season 1 and 2 her behaivour wasn't annoying me. It started to be in seasons 3 and 4, when it was over and over again. I was sick of Creepynette, I wanted Marinette speaking with Adrien like normal human being and seeing their friendship grow, but writers consequently were stopping her development just to squeeze everything in season 5. Now we know that "Agreste Arc" suppose to take one school year, but previously it was never established (timelane is messed and very random; Smarty Pants made a good video on it), so I though that it was couple years, just like for us. I expected more pronouced development.
When it comes to the Marinette' anxiety - thank you Haze, for opening my eyes, I wasn't thinking about it in that way. My annoyance on Marinette anxiety came from different root. I personally has got many fears too and I'm often freaking out like Marinette, so I'm usually very forgiving for her overreacting (and I understand that many of her "drama queen" moments are for comic relief), but I was very annoyed with her in Perfection. Few episodes earlier (Transmission, but even Mr. Pigeon 72) she was able to touch Adrien and cuddling to his arm, but now she again cannot speak with him. Again. Despite of her knowing that he loves her and doesn't reject her, which should made her feel more relaxed (worked in Cat Blanc). I have many fears too and I'm also scared of social interactions, just like Marinette, and I was annoyed that Marinette is not helping me go through it. As I mentioned at the begining, I'm seeing myself in Marinette many times and thinking: "if she can do this, I can do it too". But Perfection was not that episode, I was dissapointed and annoyed. I wasn't thinking that she still puts a lot of pressure on herself, so once again, thank you again, Haze, for opening my eyes. I hope that one day she will find way to overcome her fears.
Don’t get me wrong, I do think it’s a little overdone in the show and I think they could go about it in better ways, but due to her anxiety, I do think it makes sense it’s taken her this long
Ah yeah Mari just has too much pressure on her. For ages she’s put all this pressure on herself surrounding Adrien, hence why she wants it all to go perfectly, but it just makes her more anxious. I’m glad I helped you understand it more!
@@hazeclarke You welcome, bestie, everybody has got different perspective and it is great that we can share it in friendly way:).
I think that Mari also just have an impostor syndrome, and it would be great if it would be explored more. Many multitalented people suffer from this.
Sometimes I'm blaming more writers than Marinette herself, because many things could be explored or executed differently, even with kids media in mind. I apprieciate a lot their creativity, they have got amaizing ideas, but not alwyas they are done best.
Yes she a Mary su no question about it
But no
Ok, but she still is a stalker.
By definition she literally is not. Do not warp the definition of a word to suit yourself
She explained in the video why she isn't.
@@animeguy10000000 she is a stalker, she broke into Adrien’s house, she is a stalker. She sniffed his pillow, she is a stalker. She has memorized his schedule by heart, she is a stalker.
@@hazeclarke i don’t know that type of miraculous ladybug you watch, but grab a dictionary, open it and find the word “to stalk” and fucking study it because I can see that not only you’re an ignorant by not knowing what stalking really is, but you’re also childish by trying to make a 1hour long video just to defend some stalker 💀
@@hazeclarke ok then, what does stalker means for you?
Marinette is my favorite character.
Just finished watching the video.
I -one hundred percent- 99% agree with all you said. She's over hated and does not deserve the hostility she gets. Your arguments were all clear and well-constructed, and I'm happy that you made this video. Now if only the whole fandom could watch it; that would resolve a lot of conflict.
As for me, though. Personally, I still don't like Marinette. And I don't think I ever will. I kind of want her dead.
Why? Well, simple: my favourite character is Chloe. I feel offended whenever a character takes a jab at her. And Marinette? She has taken way too many jabs at my Chloe. I know she (Chloe) is a horrible person, and that Marinette is mostly in the right here... but do I care? No.
My bias doesn't have to be justified. I acknowledge and admit that Marinette is the good guy, and Chloe is the bad guy. But despite that, I still hate Marinette and like Chloe. And I don't think _anyone_ can change how I feel.
If only everyone else were honest about how they feel, rather than trying to justify their hatred.
Welp. This fandom sure is something. Something that I stopped bothering with, that is.
Aight. Imma head out. Just wanted to get this off my chest.
lmao i think i'd die if more people saw it. im already nervous XD you want her dead?! omg ahmed XD
@@hazeclarke I get that you're nervous (I'd be shaking if it was me in your shoes, so I'm not any better), but this video is the best I've seen out there.
Also, yes, I do want her dead. Problem?
That's just how much I hate her. And I feel like - at some point - I'll want all the characters dead, too.
She’s a cartoon character. Grow up. Maybe you shouldn’t watch cartoons for kids (or anything) since you can’t separate fantasy from reality.
@@Passionate_Aria Where does it say I can't separate fantasy from reality?
And what's with the "it's a cartoon" argument?
Are you saying all cartoons have terrible writing? You're definitely missing out on some amazing ones if you think so
Cos there are cartoons out there with amazing writing that puts Miraculous to shame
Maybe it's the writers who should grow up and stop pretending that the dumpster fire they're writing is the best thing since sliced bread.
@@yourlocalchloesimp I didn’t see your response till just now 😳 anyway I admit the writing on this show takes some weird turns at times but truth be told I like it, for the most part 🤷♀️ I know there are other cartoons out there with good writing though…then again many of my favorite cartoons have characters that make weird decisions (like Miraculous, Jem and the Holograms, Sailor Moon, etc.) so maybe it’s just more what I’m into. I don’t think the writing of this show is inherently bad though, just weird at times but I think it’s intentional and I tend to enjoy it
Happy birthday lila!!!!❤❤
Isn't it odd that Haze decided to upload this video today of all days? April 1st...
Haze, are you trying to tell us that this entire video is a joke and that you aren't actually defending Marinette because you realise how ridiculous, utterly ridiculous she is? I think that's what she's trying to say, besties.
i uploaded this after midday here, so the jokes on you~
@@hazeclarke It says April 1st in the description, so the joke's actually on you~