Romulan Lore : A Romulan Inspired Klingon Civil War
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 2 มิ.ย. 2019
- Today we review a Romulan Inspired Klingon Civil War. This includes TNG's episodes from Star Trek Redemption Part 1 and 2. What do you think about the Klingon Civil War? Let me know!
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4:41 - That’s not corruption; that’s politics. Starfleet didn’t provide direct aid like the Romulans, but they tried to block the that support from reaching the Duras. Corruption would be if they provided weapons, ships, and supplies even though their own laws forbid it. That may just be a loophole, but again, that’s politics.
I agree. Technically I'm not even sure what Starfleet did would even be considered aid. The various treaties between Starfleet, the Romulans and the Klingons set up neutral zones the Romulan's weren't suppose to cross. Making sure that the Romulans abide the agreement is not really aid. Until the Klingon government formally revoked that treaty with the Romulans it would need to be followed.
@@mattchamp01 I do not think that Star Fleet ever was given the job to secure KLINGON borders. And if the leadership of the Klingon Empire is unclear, it is also unclear why not one side could ask for help and decide who may be allowed to cross their borders - since if they are a legitimate government than it is their thing who they ask for help and in which way. Star Fleet/the federation has no right to decide what Klingons could and should do as long it is not directly involving the Federation and the treaties betwen the Federation and the Klingons. That a Star Fleet officer "take his leave" and played a major roll in the conflict smells a little bit foul, too.
Of course the Duras would changed the policy of the Empire if thei had won, but that is hardly a real justification.
@@marcbartuschka6372 I don't think that anyone actually needed to ask the Federation to do it. Based on the star maps that I seen online the Neutral Zone between Federation Space and Romulan just continues on and wraps around Klingon Space and Romulan. It's the same Neutral Zone and is the exact same size. I don't know that there is firm lore for it, but it appears to me that the Neutral Zone was a 3 way Treaty between the Romulans, Klingons and the Federation. Until the Klingons actually revoked the treaty it seems that all parties had carte blanche to ensure that no one entered the Neutral Zone period, because in a later episode when there was a spacial anomaly in it neither side dared cross over and investigate it.
@@mattchamp01that was Picard's arguement with the Fleet Admiral- Starfleet was patroling the border for Romulans, so the Klingons were aided either way. The Romulans were possibly an invasion force not just an aid convoy, so Picard made sure they didn't touch the Klingons.
A Romulan invasion would unite the Klingons and halt the civil war, so the hint of Romulans in Klingon space turned the war around, with Duras' Klingon support fading.
Eventually, you should do a full character analysis of worf across the two series and how he played such a pivotal, yet ultimately naïve roles in both the Federation and Klingande affairs.
Agreed
Second agreed
Triple agree
or better yet, go in detail about the many creatures that proved their bones by whipping Warf's ass.
"Internal Affair" does actually perclude getting outside help
DON'T forget the FUDAL MYSOJYNIST ORION SYNDICATE!
@@JeanLucCaptain Aren't they matriarchal?
@@artificialgravitas8954 nope.
Gowron, the most powerful Klingon in the empire: Exists.
Duras family: Dispatches a mere 2 warbirds to take him out.
Gowron was a fierce warrior on ground. His space skills were lacking. However,he surrounds himself with impressive officers and takes advice without ego. Hes not a bad leader early on. Hes actually pretty cool. Its only later with age and bordom, and yes jealousy, that he becomes "problematic",for lack of a better word. I hate that word,it reaks of communism.
Gotta love those Romulans 😉
I've told you this before, but I just have to say this again: Those intros are fan-frickin-tastic! They look and feel like a real, professionally-produced opening credits to a TV show. Good job, man. Keep it up.
Both the Klingons and Romulans boast 'empires' essentially subduing and ruling over other species within their territories. To what extent these subject species are involved in their societies is never made made entirely clear, as far as I know. However, it's made pretty clear that they persevere through conquest and military intimidation of their subject species.
But what I'm wondering is how could they sustain themselves in comparison to the Federation? The Federation has the combined knowledge, personnel, and resources of all their member worlds and don't have to police themselves internally with their fleet.
The Klingons and Romulans presumably would not have their advantages. Never have we seen non-Klingon or non-Romulan scientists or officers of any significance or number in their ranks. And to maintain these subject species would require considerable internal policing and monitoring of their technological development, I would think.
With so much of their attention and resources, not to mention single-species manpower, needed internally, how could they still be such a rival to a society like the Federation?
Interesting question. The closest we ever get to "seeing" something like what you're describing was in Nemesis where it's mentioned that the Romulans used Remans as cannon fodder during the Dominon War. I think the answer to your question has three parts 1) It's implied in Star Trek that these other species are used in some way in both empires, but for budget reasons never shown. You could argue the same thing with the Federation always being dominated by Humans. 2) In cannon the Romulans and Klingons had been in space a lot longer than the Federation and their specific species had expanded a lot more. Therefore, they have a larger base population to draw from to man ships. 3) Because of the Federations pacifistic nature it wasn't until the Dominion War that it created a military that could actually dominate the Klingons and Romulans. Now this makes me wish that Star Trek had continued chronologically forward (instead of doing prequels and reboots) and shown how the Federation dealt with the post war build up. Seeing the some members of the Federation argue for returning to the pacifistic attitude now that the war was over and others argue that pacifism was a bad stance and they need to maintain a strong military. Just my thoughts though.
Federation acts like NATO. Romulans act like Russia/China by playing the long game and showing Starfleet hipocracy over and over. Klingons are basically the Middle East stuck between the two.
The “best” explanation I can think of (at least for the Klingons) is from Starfleet Battles.Their subject races are kept in the lower decks, doing menial service tasks and low-level engineering functions. This is why Klingon ships are designed with a small “head” and a larger secondary hull. However, we see this more with the Cardassians.
The Romulans on the other hand start off with a mainstay “workhorse” ship and don’t have that large of a crew. (I imagine the BOP design is mostly the plasma weapon, fuel storage, and the impulse engines. Obviously this changes as they go from the BOP in TOS to the D’Deridex)
However, this makes me wonder about Romulan/Vulcan history. How many left Vulcan, and how many arrived on Romulus?
Did the Romulans intend on only staying on Romulus temporarily (If you define “temporary” as several hundred years) with the intention of subverting the Vulcans and then returning without anyone noticing? (Hence why the Romulans had no visual communication during the Earth-Romulan War)
Also, how did the Vulcans explain their history to to the humans?
@@joshualau4070 This issue gets me wondering more about their entire society, though, not only onboard their ships. They need to expend a lot of effort to police internally.
@@PathsUnwritten Hence the Tal Shiar......
Only 2000 troops. Sounds like the clans from battletech.
granted Battletech explained that by noting, rightfully so, in a enviroment like the inner sphere who ruled a world at an intersteller level was mostly of intreast to the nobility. to the peasentry it was just a matter of what flag flew and what their money was called (ya know when the poor dirt farmers had money) and yes I know that this doesn't make sense with the whole "Capellan nationalism" thing. AT ALL.
Clan Jade Falcon will wager 1800 troops and control all of Vulcan in 2 days!
Clan wolf bids 1500 troops, day and a half.
@@Demolitiondude You bastard clan!
Pssst glad clan Ghost Bear isn't here.
@@BagoPorkRinds I thought you invited them.
Love your videos lore. hope your feeling better and as always have a good day
I have never suscribed to anything in my life on youtube ... your Channel is the first, i just love it, it is PROFESSIONAL! i just love the intro and the background music! i really like your work on Lore Reloaded, i am amaze by the work you did... '' also i am french canadian so forgive my ortograph.
Great video LM. That's a lots to think about and something I'd love to hear you discuss.
Starfleet's concerns about getting involved actually made a lot of sense when you stepped back and considered it. (as did the reason the Romulans kept their support so covert, and when they could not keep it covert, left House Duras hanging) but rather of spillover. which is a VERY valid concern in conflicts like this. Let's say the Romulans are directly involved in the civil war. now it's not a purely internal matter, so starfleet gets involved, and suddenly the UFP and Romulans are at war and the war spills oer into a conflcit along the neutral zone. If you want a real case study of how small scale conflicts can spread into something MUCH bigger, a good example might be WW1. It's clear to me, from the actions of both UFP and the RSE that neither side wanted to to seen directly involved, so as to avoid the conflict escalating into a massive full scale General War
Talshiar: we don't think our plans through all the way.
Well if you think about it this situation was a win either way for the Romulans if the Duras won they would have a proxy within the Klingon Empire. If Gowron won the civil war would have lasting effects that will make the Klingon Empire not battle ready against the Romulans keeping the Klingons away from Romulan affairs for the foreseeable future.
@@808INFantry11X However the sympathies that many on the high counsel and many of the noble houses had for the Romulans would be spent and the Romulans would be back to being dog shit in the eyes of the Klingons, much like the first few years after the massacre at Khitomer, so they would have completely squandered that long building asset in return for a very short lived increase in battle readiness over the Klingons that they never even tried to take advantage of. Keeping those close ties within the Empire could have paid dividends for the Romulans if, say, when the Klingons and Federation warred over the Klingon invasion of Cardassian space, the Romulans might have been in position to offer a new alliance with the Klingons and have such an alliance accepted by Gowron, but certainly not after they were caught red handed a few years before trying to destroy Gowron's government and kill him.
@@22steve5150 especially that Klingons value honor and the Romulan method is anything but. It still an big if to as Klingons discovering the deception on their own but likely they would.
Considering that Gawron was a better tactician and that is what enabled him to win, the best help they could have given was military advisors.
Surgically alter a very experienced Romulan Captain (whatever) and embed them in the Durass camp.
Only the sisters and a few others need know and the advantage of that asset is it doesn't need to be resupplied, do a blockade has no effect.
Then the superior numbers would play out to a victory that would not be suspicious to anyone doing a logistical bookkeeping.
And considering it was obviously a long-term plan of the Romulans why didn't they preposition supplies and assets for before the war started. They would know not to underestimate Starfleet and should be able to predict the actions of a blockade.
@@casbot71 the Romulans either way this was win for them either they gain an emperor who would be proxy for them or the civil war and casualties would cripple the Klingon empire so they won't be a threat to the Romulans I mean either way the Romulans had little to lose but so much to gain from this.
Great analysis as always
I think not helping the klingons after the Praxis-cataastrophe would just encourage the hardliners like Chang. Not willing to bow to the Federation and change their society drasticly, they may have decided to a last, glorious Hurra, very likely directly or indirectly aided by the Romulans, to conquer what their Empire need to survive. So I think it was logical for the Federation to help the Klingons (although I think I do not like the tamed Klingons very much).
Lore needs to write the next gen war, Gowron and Feds v Duras and Feds
I just left a similar comment on another video but it fits better here.
I think the Duras-Romulan alliance is why the Romulans want to frame the Federation as aggressors. Under such conditions the house of duras would potentially be able to prevent the empire from aiding the federation in a war with the romulans, if Duras or his sisters had obtained rule of the empire they could have used federation "violation" of treaty as a pretext to join the romulan side of such a conflict.
How do Starfleet officers put on their uniforms on the Enterprise D? Or zip them up in the back anyway?
@Lorereloaded idk if anyone else would want to see it but id be curious to see a a what if video about if klingons had gone to war w romulan empire and what that affect if any that would have on dominion war
That would have been interesting, specially after the Romulans tried to invaded Vulcan.
Would the Federation come in ?
I would love to see that, I have long wondered which empire would be left standing had they gone to war.. as for my opinion on what effect that would of had on the dominion war honestly both empires in ruins(assuming they are fairly evenly matched) with starfleet being the only power able to fight the dominion would of drasticly changed the outcome of the war I think the romulans would off been pushed to join the dominion to help defeat the klingons, which would of crushed the klingon empire without starfleet aid and then without the romulans joining the alliance I don't see the dominion being defeated.
@@kinggoten I am not sure the Romulans would trust the Dominion. The Romulans usually have a strict sense/code of honor. The Dominion does not care about honor. At least the Founders do not. I am not so sure the Romulans would ever distrust the Klingons enough to join the Dominion.
Should’ve been TNG’s first movie. Was a great double episode but could’ve been amazing on big screen with bigger and better battles.
You're forgetting that Klingons loath Romulans. The difference between Gowron / Federation and Duras / Romulans is that few would have supported the latter if the truth were known. So not simply a case of factions in a civil war finding allies.
Don't get me wrong, I love the "how does the Federation look to others" angle of the recent videos, but there's a big thing being glossed over here.
I'd guess saving the Klingon Empire in Star Trek VI came down to a calculation that the Klingons would have gone down fighting. Or turned into a hodgepodge of bandits, strongmen, and warring states.
If the Klingons fought, the Romulans possibly could have picked off a weakened Federation or attacked during the fight. The other scenario has a constant drain on Federation resources, or even a ripe target for the Romulans.
Realpolitik does sometimes have to come into play even with goodish motivated people.
Starfleet sending a ship full of familys into a war nothing wrong there LOL
I would like to see a video about what if the romulans attack Starfleet at the Klingon border
me too, he needs to do more of those its been a long time since we have gotten those.
I'm watching an ad for Picard right now. Lol
Federation corruption? Try Federation realpolitik.
The point of this was not that the Romulans were assisting one side, it was that they were assisting one side ~covertly~ so as that the Klingon people were to be kept completely unaware that the Duras side was receiving Romulan aid. The Klingon as a people HATE the Romulans.
And so if it that were publicly known that the Duras faction was receiving aid from the Romulans, then the Duras clan would have been run off of Kronos by every other Klingon house.
That is why the Romulans simply state "it's over" once their ships are discovered and their presence revealed rather then to simply continue on with their supplies.
The Romulans truly throughout the series until that Picard Clone, had the best tactics of any race. The worked from the shadows, when confronted they might take minor losses, but continued to use the same destabilizing tactics throughout space.
Even though their plans were foiled they were almost never worse off. If they succeed they won. If they failed they lost nothing.
So your right about Starfleet and the Federation picking sides and to be fair, even if they consider the civil war an internal affair, doesn't mean they can't have a preferred outcome. There are however a few other points I would like to bring up:
1. As far as the Federation is concerned Gowron is the legitimate leader of the Klingon Empire, which is an ally, technically speaking if a ally asked the Federation to take over some boarder security for them, that would be something that was within the terms of the alliance and would not technically be interfering in the civil conflict if they only stop ships that are not from either of the 'declared' sides in the conflict. Yes it favours one side over the other but the disadvantaged side can't complain much as they would have to admit they are getting the Romulan help.
2. Given the state of the Empire after the civil war its likely they were not in a position to take on the Romulans, we hear in DS9 that the Dominion War was going to need 20 years to rebuild and that was when the bulk of the fighting was not in the core of Klingon space, when they were losing ships and people but not really planets and infrastructure so I would assume the civil war took quite some time to recover from.
3. You make a point about how the House of Duras is able to keep support even after its head dies in disgrace at Worf's hands, now this could be because many of its supporters favour an alliance with the Romulans over the Federation but other factors must be at play, we see that Gowron is very sure that the revelation of Romulan support is going to cause support to fall away from the Duras, so it would imply many of their forces and supporters did not know about it, in turn implying that just preferring the Romulan's over the Federation would not be enough for good chunk of their supporters to follow them.
Why does the Federation helps the Klingon after their moon is destroyed, that simple.
If they don't the Empire falls into a civil war, mostly likely breaking apart and then the Federation has to deal with a fragmented Empire. Which is basically a failed state on their boarder, how many warbands or mini invasion would that mean.
or the reverse the empire actually gets its shit together and all the internal struggles are delt with and they become a real power to be feared.
All hail empress sela! Long may her hotness reign!
It always jars me when people talk about the "barbaric" Klingons. It makes me want to know where the race seen in Errand of Mercy went. I thought they were calling themselves 'Cardassians' now, but even they are not the ruthlessly efficient police state seen in that episode.
I miss *those* Klingons - the three+ other species called 'Klingons' since then are all unimpressive. I don't see any of them conquering half the galaxy.
It's key to note that Federation intervention isn't material.
Wow you really know what you are doing here. This is what you do for a living
I think the Klingons not going to war against the Romulans shows further evidence to my theory that the Romulan Star Empire is the most powerful faction in the Alpha and Beta quadrants, they would never just let them do that and get away with it, unless they believed them it be far beyond their capacity to combat.
Don't seem to have the same numbers and resources, but they DO often seem more technological advanced, often.
that is an interesting take and I actually love it, not because I like the Romulans so much but for how much klingons hate the Romulan trickery you would of expected to go to war with them on so many occasions yet they never have. As for Romulas not being more aggressive could it be that they just don't have the numbers? Maybe their the civilians have just enough power to prevent the leadership from going to war?
Zero Cool Just actually kind of likely, but as Northumbrian states, I think it’s more likely that the war would be very costly, the Klingons would never just keel over and accept the fact they lost, if they did they would make it as costly as they possibly could.
Northumbrian I agree, and I believe the only reason the Romulans haven’t invaded the Klingons is because of the Federation, and the Romulans do love the diplomacy game, which makes them my favorite Star Trek species...
@@pollall2793 I wonder how many times they were sucessful with their tactic. I guess for any time the "wonderful" Enterprise saves the day for the Federation, there were also occasions when the Federation noticed the sucess of the Romulans just when it was too late (ov they EVER noticed).
Their attempt to take Vulcan was insane....
@Northumbrian no it WAS insane as Spock always can crack a computer and a communications system somehow.....
I was surprised Neral wasn't executed.....
Perhaps it was in Starfleet's best interest to maintain it for reasons
RIP Barbara March AKA Lursa.
On the main topic, Greta from DS9 "House of Quark" was able to gain all her family lands and rights to represent them, basically winning female parity in the Klingon Empire under Gowron as well. I don't think Gowron was a misogynist, he was just a politician.
The Duras family had for over 50 years been allies of the Romulans, maybe even longer back o the days of the TOS era. They would advocate for an end to the peace with Federation and a return to cold war.
I'd argue that the Romulan attacks against the Klingons during the early 24th century would leave a bitter taste on everyone's tongue in the Klingon Empire. The Romulans not only betrayed them, they also killed thousands of Klingons, including notably Worf's father Mogh, a noble on the High Council (I believe it was noted that Worf's family originally were Klingon Nobility and had seat on the Council along with Duras family).
Could the Federation have been trying to keep the Klingons weak? As a buffer to the Romulans, the Klingons would have been just enough of a threat to keep the Romulans at bay. Thoughts?
3:29 I choose to believe that the USS Sutherland is named after Donald, the best Sutherland (I love Kiefer, but you know its true in that secret place in your heart we let nobody into).
Heh.
So many positive waves.
"Make Vulcan Great Again!" :P (I can see that as a war cry of Vulcan dissidents, who side with Romulans)
@Lore, the Romulans had been planning "Reunification" for centuries as shown in Enterprise "Kir'Shara", so 2,000 soldiers might just be an expeditionary force, while Vulcan itself has dissenters and people, who remember "the Good old days of the Vulcan High Command". Remember back in the 22nd Century, Vulcans were in many ways no different than modern Romulans: big empire, large fleets, strong central government, massive surveillance state, and a strong central government of oligarchs, .
If you look at the history of Vulcan representation, TNG and DS9 have shown that there were a lot of examples of "Romulan-esque" Vulcans. Just as Spock was preaching peace and logic on Romulus, the Tal Shiar was sowing their ideology within Vulcan society.
Take for example, TNG's "Gambit", the vulcan woman behind everything seemed very -non-vulcan to the point of seeming Romulan with her push for using Teleapthic weapon. The weapon in quest comes from the era of the Vulcan/Romulan schism, who do you think gave her the historical background and possible locations of where the psionic weapon was. I'd argue the Romulans were behind her mission, even funding her (come on where would an extremist Vulcan in the Federation come up with that much Latinum, if not without aid of Tal Shiar). If she and others were part of the Romulan's master plan of a civilian uprising on Vulcan, then the Federation would be forced into a quagmire.
Think about it, if Vulcan dissidents rose up and took over their planetary government, then Romulan troops joined them in assistance, they'd be able to hold the planet. If the Federation sent in its marines and there's a lot of guerilla warfare on Vulcan, it would appear to other Vulcans that the benevolent Federation was in fact an "alien" invasion and the Romulans are just their wayward cousins coming to their aid. Dissent would grow and ultimately create a fifth column within Starfleet's own ranks of Vulcans loyal to Vulcan society before Federation values.
There's enough evidence in established episodes to prove that a Vulcan dissident movement exists that is anti-Federation and would be happy to see the old "Vulcan High Command" come back.
I swear. If in the new Picard Series i hear the phrase "make the empire great again" from the romulans like in STD, I'll drop the series harder than The Americans droped Little Boy over Hiroshima
Go cry into your MAGA hat, deplorable.
@@22steve5150 Why? I'm german. I just can't hear that shit anymore. It is WAY overused
@@supsup335 Hey, this phrase or something like that is not OWNED by Trump and so. Similar slogans were used before him and will be used after him. I have nothing against a good "let us rally, crush our enemies and rebuild our Empire the glorious way the Senate and People of Romulus wanted it and how they deserve it" - which you could easily see as a very similar slogan.
It is the way you show the people who want to do it what matters. I mean the Romulans have (if they follow the New Film timeline) maybe just lost their homeworld. Billions of their people, their leadership is gone (a lot already killed by this idiot Shinzon). They are surely open (and should be) for some message of bringing old glory, values and strength back. They are in their own eyes those who marched beneath the Raptor's wings. Children of people who had to abandon their world and build their Empire out of a few ships. Becoming a prime power in the Galaxy was never granted - it was earned. Surely they will rely on that heritage in such a dark moment. And that seperate them from the real world counterpart - what they have suffered is just unimaginable. Not just a feeling of loss, a real deep scare on their mentality.
But if you show them not just as idiots but as deeply wounded people, neither the good nor the bad guys, just people who are a lot different than the Federation and follow other values, some of them with honour, some with treachery, some with passion, some with logic, some cruel and some generous 8and many acting all this things together as the situation demands) - they would make material for some great scenes.
Romulan ships crossing the border with supplies made very little sense. Duras aligned Klingon ships have cloaks too, they could simply have klingon ships travel to the Romulan Empire for the supplies and even if the Federation finds out, they can't do anything about it and probably can't really prove that it's Romulus they are going to. The Fed can't tell one side in the Klingon civil war that they can't travel to a certain place or receive aid from certain groups, and since no Romulan ships are entering any neutral zone (I don't know if there was one between Klingon space and Romulan space) they can't claim the Romulans are doing anything provocative. In a more realistic scenario, the Romulans would hire mercenaries (probably Orion Syndicate mercs or a Ferrangi arms dealing company) who would establish some supply bases somewhere along the borders between the two empires' territory and act as intermediaries between the two, much as the USA and Saudi Arabia bought weapons from Egypt and Israel and funneled them to the Afghans via the Pakistanis during the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. Of course, in a more realistic scenario, the Federation would either do the same thing or they would openly enter the civil war under the justification that Gowron is the legitimate head of the Klingon government and his request for aid is legitimate because *obviously* the other side is being helped by some foreign power (whether the Fed can really prove it or not) and thus the mutual defense criteria of their treaty can be invoked.
That's why Duras were the bad guys right? Klingon Women belong in the battle-kitchen and that's that.
What I find weird about this story is that Gowron says women can't be on the council yet in Star Trek 6 there's a female Chancellor.How can she be Chancellor,if women aren't allowed on the council why are they allowed to rule the Empire?
The thing about women not being allowed to serve on the council never struck me as a sexist notion at least not a misogynistic one. Women led the Great Houses but the men weren't allowed to do that. Sure they had strict rules for the sexes in their political system but it seemed to go both ways.
Maybe I misunderstood how it works.
I always took it was star fleet being I guess Cold War America which true they were never truly neutral with the fleet being like the trade embargo with Cuba or joint agreements with the Soviets to end the Suez crisis
I'm seriously waiting for the next episode. That plot never really made sense to me.
Lt. Worf is an absolute disgrace
Hey there! I hope you’re having a good day!😀
You too!!
We have to stop considering that the Klingons are honorable warriors they’ve committed genocide multiple times in fact in DS9 when they invaded the Kardashians it’s quoted multiple times that they’ve massacred entire cities of people and slaughtered the civilian government anything that happens to them is retribution for the thousands of other civilizations they’ve conquered murdered and genocided. Sure the Romulus Have incredibly competitive and sometimes imperialistic intentions but compared to the Klingons there less evil they even allow other civilizations to exist as long as they cooperate and give them independence there are multiple examples of even humans working with the Romulans compared to the Klingons just look at the behavior of the Klingons in the Romulans during DS nine when in different times for both of them docked on the station. The Klingons were brash and disrespected every rule openly and murdered anyone whom became problematic. When the Romulan started to cooperate with the Federation the Romulans on the ship although were calculating they did not commit any acts of aggression or murdered anyone out of simple anger.
There is factions in any alliance, no matter how good the alliance is!!!
The Mysogeny of the Klingon Empire is an odd anomaly that contradicts the core values of the Empire. Indeed its largely forgotten in Undiscovered Country when Azedbur becomes Chancellor and again in Discovery with Dennas leading House D'Ghor and of course L'rell as Chancellor.
Much like Turnabout Intruder's "No Female Captain" rule, it was considered a gross mistake conveniently forgotten by the show's producers going forward.
It's not unusual in a feudal society at all. Lots of ruling queens in feudal Europe, despite rules saying no women rulers.
@@vrenak True but what we see in these examples are the opposite. Women are included in all aspects of society except leadership. Women command ships, lead soldiers, fight on the front lines, hold high positions in science and engineering fields, etc. But they can't lead houses?
@@STSGingie Women were very much included in the daily lives back then too, only the richest houses could afford to not have the women actively work in some fashion, for a poorer house it was common that the lady would lead and decide on almost anything in the household, keep the books etc. So it's not different than Klingon society at all, save for the warrior culture aspect.
@@vrenak My point is that this exclusions only exists at this point in time in TNG/DS9. TOS, DISCO, (and STO?) ignore this rule as if it were never there. Just like the ToS rule barring women from starship command.
@@STSGingie Then you're not understanding what I'm saying at all. Please read it again from the top.
Women aren't allowed to serve on the council, unless it's as chancellor. Then, it's ok.
5:47 romulans not prepped to fight a general war. This was tal Shira op. They knew not worth it once discovered. Average Klingon would not support duras family once known. Klingons not go to war with romulans after. Too weakened after civil war.
The Klingon Empire is through and through a feudal society, you can find numerous examples of everything that happens in it in european history from the middleages to the renaissance. The House of Duras isn't progressive at all, for practical and power purposes other houses were willing to accept de facto female leaders, by supporting a young male heir with limited legitimacy, this is pretty much how Margrethe I did when creating the Kalmar union. There are examples in several countries that are very similar, other houses would simply support the side that would benefit them the most, by granting them titles, lands, rights, and money. The Romulans and Federation meddling is just like how neighbouring countries would meddle for various reasons.
In the Drum head we also see a Starfleet crewman who believes in Romulan values
Umm who?
uh, I think that one might've had to do with biology, not values
@Northumbrian I really don't think so because I do not remember the issue of values popping up where that crew member was concerned, I just remember that retiree giving him shit just because of an innocent biological connection he couldn't control.
@Northumbrian or, maybe a section 31 agent, trying make preliminary preparations for their romulan agent to take control, somehow.
The Fraderation providing aid to the Klingon Empire was the most beneficial long term option available at the time.
If they had done nothing, it may have resulted in reforms, but it also could've resulted in the deaths of millions and a far more radicalized hardline regime United by a hatred of the Federation that made made the TOS era seem like a minor disturbance.
It also could've left the Empire open to Romulan infiltration resulting in a puppet regime beholden to the Romulan Star Empire.
It was wise for the Federation to aid the Klingons. It was however, unwise to demilitarize Starfleet as Klingons respect strength above all else.
Maintaining a strong Starfleet would allow the Klingons to keep their pride as it would be seen as an acknowledgement of strength.
It could be argued that demilitarizing could be seen as an insult as it could be interpreted as showing one's back to an adversary they deem unworthy.
The federation was correct to do what they did because if romulan
Lursa and B'Etor are hot.
there was a female chancellor at the end of undiscovered country watch that movie again
Sela is the best
The Andorrians did this
KLINGON !!! 4-LIFE
Wow. I had not considered the perspective of House Duras, being a "progressive" family, in contrast to the Federation supporting a backwards empire. I suppose this would make sense. But this only shows that, in spite of ideals, might makes right and the will to power holds true. For all of its propaganda, the Federation was just another empire.
P.S. Sela is awesome, Denise Crosby did well in reprising her role in TNG.
I am sad how badly they used her in Star Trek Online (she had some cool lines in the lore). I think she would have made a better Romulan head of State than this "Praise Spock" D'Tan, wo lead his "Romulan Republic" to becoming not much more than a Federation/Vulcan puppet...
Marc Bartuschka Actually, I played Star Trek Online very little. I rather hate the direction the lore went. Especially with the Romulans.
@@archades115 I could understand this very well, and this is one reason why I play now so little, too. I could understand that the Empire may be lay in ashes after the loss of their homeworld, but I think it would be much realistic if they somehow regroup and restart - and not as Vulcans with cloaking devices, so to speak. Maybe as a new Empire, or a Imperial Republic with stronger Senate and weaker Praetor - but not this copy and past of Vulcan and Federation/human values. It does not fit for the Romulans in my eyes.
@@marcbartuschka6372 Honestly, what really bugs me is how Romulus was destroyed. A supernova? From the Hobus star, dozens of lightyears away in the neutral zone? That hit Romulus faster than the speed of light? And the explosion, which would have been seen from other galaxies, didn't even scratch the Federation? The f*ck?
I don't really like how the Romulans divided either. A borderline insane empress with the Tal Shiar on one side, and a pro-Reunification republic on the other. It makes some sense. Sort of. But the execution struck me as poor. Hell, the Romulans falling to the Klingons or the Borg would have made more sense.
@@archades115 Well, to be honest, STO can't be blamed for this destruction-BS (and I seee it similar).But tThat we must place on the door of the Star-Trek-movie, I would say. The rift in the Romulans IS stupid in the way it is shown, I agree to 100 percent, too. But to be honest, even that is just similar poor writing as we see it in some of the TNG-episodes which show a insane amount of tension between the TS, the military and the people in general. I mean the Romulan society worked not perfect but well enough for much more years than any modern dictatorship on Earth. You can build such things not on fear and force alone. There must be a lot of common ground between the common Romulans, the military and the TS, shared ideology and something like this. At least I think...
What would you have said if the Federation would have stood idly by while Romulans and Klingons form an alliance that may well be able to wipe out the Federation? You would have said that the Federation's pacifistic ideals are devoid of any sense for real world politics.
Neither is the optimum - heck, it's about war, how can anything be optimal when it's about war?! - , but I think the Federation still went the best middle ground they could find. They didn't do nothing nor did they assist the Klingons openly. Instead they solved the situation by means of a tense and risky confrontation, but without firing a shot. Seems rather sensible to me.
You can hold both opinions actually, which just portrays how idiotic their ideology is (or it's just bad writing). Pragmatically, allowing the Romulans and Klingons to ally or for the Klingons to be a puppet state would be a bad idea. However, I would state that they are atleast being consistent in their beliefs. Just because it doesn't make sense.. don't come at me brother.. your argument is with TNG Writers ;P They did assist the Klingons openly though - To say not, I think, is niave.
Romulans > Klingons
ok you are the lieder of a empire and one of your alias is in a sivol war and one of the sides like you the other Dusint how would you sport
Section 31 fault!
It all makes sense now!!
Hold on lore, your wrong on something... in Star Trek TOS 6 movie the undiscovered country the daughter is made Chancellor of the high council after her father is killed on kronos one by the 2 Starfleet officers. A female Klingon is the head of the Empire....but women can't serve on the council????? What's up lore?????
Inconsistencies in trek!?! SAY WHAAAA
How exactly is the Klingon misogynistic? They're a warrior race focused on brute force and domination, so their high council is all male out of practically but that doesn't mean they hate women. If Klingon females were physically larger they'd be matriarchal.
..... i feel like you answer your own question
@@LoreReloaded Hmmm, very cryptic Mr. Lore.
Second
#stillawinner
303rd
#sexywinner
first
#winner
wait a minute, dont you believe that star trek discovery is canon? well the klingons have been supportive of female leaders. did you forget about the one on discovery? so the klingons are not new to progressive ideas and values. unless..............discovery isnt actually canon. naw its ok, you're right, it all does fit together. 😑
I said 'TNG Era' for a reason
@@LoreReloaded thats a nice way to circumvent the problem of discovery. so basically what you are saying is that the klingons regressed. in one generation no doubt.
If you think thats unique for discovery, you have never ever seen any other startrek series ever.. they change every series..regress or progress
@@LoreReloaded can you give me another example of a series culture that regressed socially when compared to its past self. like for instance, did the next gen romulans regress socially (per current western standards) from their TOS selves?
@@LoreReloaded Likewise, i dont think its rational to believe that a culture would regress over the period of one generation. like for instance, do you believe that America will outlaw gay marriage in 30 years from now?