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I would define premillenials and amillennials both as escapist worldviews. If the end is just right around the corner, what is the point of engaging the culture and taking dominion? Postmillenials believe that God is transforming the world through the power of the Holy Spirit in his saints. We engage and think far down stream. We believe that Christ is ruling and reigning now.
I’ve watched your videos and I have to say, I’m drawn to this church, To the message that God gives you to share. I had a recent awakening with Jesus and I can’t ignore it, after running from him my whole life. I’m from michigan but I’m praying and talking to my wife about visiting your church. I’ve never heard a pastor give it straight like you do. I respect gods gift in you to connect with people and to communicate gods word without regard for how the enemy views it. I’m a disabled veteran looking for a church to devote my time to. I have nothing but time. I hope to visit soon. God bless you
@@JASPERKNOWSNOTHING Brother, I would strongly encourage you to look for a CREC church in your area before considering moving all the way to Arizona. You can probably do greater faith work in a local church in your area than picking up and moving
Look around you may be surprised, there are kingdom churches in many places, I am in southern Ontario Canada, I know of two churches that preach kingdom
Love the gracious interaction. Most obvious issue is that at multiple points Pastor Emilio is talking about what the unregenerate will do with the Law of God but Pastor Jeff responds with what the regenerate will do with the Law. They aren’t really addressing the arguments as stated.
I thought that too, I agree that Jeff seemed to address points that were not made by Emilio, and I was about to write a huge post, but eventually Jeff finally implied that Emilio’s argument was a straw man because theonomists don’t think they can transform dead sinners with the law of God in civil government, he just took a really long time to finally clarify that. Check out starting at 1:05:36, particularly 1:06:32
@@therockstar17exactly…… Pastor Jeff takes time to set context for everything he teaches which is why I actually understand him. Lol 😂 He uses the local church to argue the Gospels’ effect on the world.
New to Postmillennialism and theonomy in the last 6 months I agree that He Shall Have Dominion and Paradise Restored are both excellent reads and highly recommended
That was a beautiful, thorough, powerful, thoughtful refutation of a “refutation”. Thank you Apologia for handling this in a Christ honoring fashion! ❤
38:48 That's pretty much how I was brought up. Until about 8 years ago, I thought I was a fairly well-read Protestant--then I started attending a Reformed church, and quickly learned that there was so much I didn't know I didn't know. Even if you don't agree with postmil/amil, it's obvious that there are serious, conservative, Bible-believing Christians who do.
@Dan Brown, throughout more recent church history postmil has surges and then fades, like many false doctrines do, they are cyclical based on the times. For example, postmil faded away when world wars came about. No early church fathers were postmil or amil and some were discipled directly by the apostles. Research the issue thoroughly, look at how postmil proponents frequently isolate and take fragments of their letters (church fathers)way out of context to fit their theology. Let no one deceive you by any means & God bless.
Paradise Restored did the same thing to me. I ended up reading the whole book to my friend and we were both so hyped and breaking out into laughing fits together. Probably my favorite book outside of scripture. I actually have a copy I got from ebay that turned out to be signed by David Chilton.
I've always enjoyed Wilson's remark about a 1st century believer having the wisdom to understand the number of the beast and saying, "Who's Henry Kisinger?"
If Revelation was mainly written to address future events and was not for the generation that lived at that time... Then Revelation would be irrelevant for about 95, and counting, of the 100 generations that have lived and died since it was written. Even though eschatology is not salvific, your eschatology will inevitably effect your walk as a believer. It is the difference between the escapist and the engager. Ultimately a faith issue.
How is it irrelevant if the message of looking to the future events is a message of hope and Christ’s rapture of the church and millennial reign? The book is about hope and is relevant to Christians today as a premill
@@Mynameisjoof Sorry brother, if Revelation is for the future it is always the begging of the end for every generation who reads it. Hope you will consider that Christ is ruling now. Life is so much more rewarding when you plant trees for 5 hundred years for now. Doesn't really matter, we'll all have perfect eschatology some day.
@@geekubs2778 Yes... Basically every generation is thinking the end of the world is right around the corner. This is common among many evangelical Churches in the United States.
Been a reformed Baptist for 20 yrs believing in credo baptism as generally taught by our leaders till a friend told me he converted to paedo baptism after doing thorough search of the word along with Uncle Dougie's book on, To a 1000 generations, on the issue. Just as my search in the word led me to fully embrace being a postmiller, so my search led me to embrace paedo baptism as being scriptural and glorious in baptizing our babies in to the covenant. And I am 77 yrs old. Study the word, read what ones like Doug and others write, let the word speak to you as it did to this old timer and convinced me that it's glorious to baptize infants. Another happy convert first to postmil then to paedo baptism.
Same thing happened to me brother, and the Lord used the same book (To A Thousand Generations). I decided to give a listen just to understand what the Presbyterian view was all about and before you know it I was convinced haha.
Just some friendly push back from a Baptist brother who also has thought long and hard about pedobaptism: The issue for me is how the NC pulls away from a genetic continuity towards a purer understanding of the church as one not based upon family heritage (all honor to it and it’s place) but to the work of the Spirit in regeneration. So Jesus tells his old covenant interlocutors that being a physical child of Abraham is not enough (even in the old covenant!). John baptized persons who were repentant. Jesus baptized with water and the Spirit. The point of baptism was to move away from assumed cultural continuity and toward inward heart conversion. This conversion then feeds into a true communal expression of the church, where none shall say know the Lord (that is “be saved,” for all shall rightly know him in a presumptive way in this community). I think you will find that pedopaptists are forced to confront this heart reality in the end by expressly or tacitly removing unbelieving children from the Church, it’s just that in such a case we have given away baptism to those that gave no evidence of its appropriateness. Now, Credo baptists need to be careful about pressuring children, pastors should help with discernment without holding back the right from those that believe. In the end, Christ’s promises are to the thousandth generation, but it is by the Spirit in the inner man and not outward baptism (which is a conscious appeal to God by the apprised for a clean conscience) per se that this is accomplished. And that is how credo baptism is supposed to hold our feet to the fire.
Really good discussion of the NYT article and recognizing the paradigm of the writer and intended audience. To a world where freedom means absolute liberation, Apologia is probably going to “look” restrictive and strange. Hopefully the author heard the word of God.
I agree that the Great Commission will cause many to become more righteous but we also see in Scripture to the two harvests - one righteous and one evil. We see two cities in Revelation - Jerusalem and Babylon. Good and evil will continue to grow up together (just like the parable) until Jesus returns.
But light will always swallow up the darkness and continue to all is reconciled to Christ, his kingdom come on the earth as it is in heaven, much work to do and much rewards.
@@rontherrien7392 What about Matthew 7:13-14? The postmil view would seem to have those flipped. If all will be reconciled to Christ, then broad is the way that leads to life and narrow is way to destruction.
@@MrSmeagolKitty This is one of those passages where context really matters. The maxim "context is king" is spot on. Who was Matthew primarily written to? It was the J-ws of Jesus day, to His faithful disciples (excepting Judas Iscariot). Chapter 7, vss. 13-14, I believe was about those Jews who would ultimately reject Jesus. It would be "few" among the J-ws that would "find it" speaking of eternal life. It's like where in another place it says how hard is it for a rich man to enter into heaven. Certainly it's true for the majority, but not for God's elect, even if they are rich it is entirely possible, even absolute.
And since the gates of hell will not prevail, the church on offense, will prevail. Neutrality is a myth, and we shouldn't allow for unjust laws, period. Liberty isn't for licentious behavior, which are slaves to sin...It's an oxymoron. There is only one kingdom. Our High King Jesus took over, until every enemy is put under His feet. The other kingdom lost. Now we skirmish. Even evil itself puts itself out twice as fast, for e.g. homosexuality, abortion, drugs, stupidity, etc.
The confession is meant to set the boundaries of orthodox, not spell out a specific narrowly defined view. It was also written in a time before amil set out to distinguish itself from postmil, so both would just be under the postmil banner back then. As I understand, some of the Westminster divines were premil, and most would fall into either what we would call postmil or amil today. They didn't see those differences as something worth dividing over, though chapter 33 clearly is incompatible with versions of premil that teach multiple ressurections and days of judgement. What I don't see is anything in the confession that speaks against postmil. If the puritans were post-mil, they didn't think disagreement on that issue rose to the level of heterodoxy, and if they weren't, they didn't think postmil was a serious error worth dividing over or unbecoming of ministers in the church.
It’s striking that those who oppose theonomy (like Emilio here) make these arguments while enjoying the benefits of the remnants of Christendom. How quickly we forget the difference in living in the US (still today) vs living in the Sudan. And why is there a difference?
It’s also ironic that those premills who say they oppose theonomy don’t realize that they actually DO believe in theonomy when Christ reigns and rules during the millennium. They just believe, incorrectly, that we’re still waiting for the millennium where postmills believe we are currently living in the millennium.
@@duck-fil-a3606 what’s truly ironic is when postmil’s believe we are living in Christ’s millennial kingdom when much of the world is at war. It’s interesting how postmil raises and fades away during world wars and how almost none of the early church fathers were postmil/amil as they were all historical premil. But what’s most ironic is how true Christians worship a crucified Messiah yet the postmil/preterists get super excited and emotionally charged when they feel like they are learning and being taught by a man displaying perceived boldness & manliness and who wants to take on and transform the world in a civilian manner. Crucified messiah or warrior? Truth is Christ is both, but He is only a warrior when He returns to take vengeance Himself, Christians do NOT seek vengeance ourselves and defeat all evil, Christ does this WHEN He returns. Scripture couldn’t be more clear. Please make sure you aren’t part of the establishment of the coming anti-christ kingdom, that would cost you dearly. As a Christian, you darn well better seek God’s will and be able to discern when you are in God’s kingdom or not.
@@matts.6558 Do you not believe Jesus when He said in Matthew 24:34 that this generation will not pass away until all these things take place? Or when He said in Matthew 10:23 you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes. Antichrist is only mentioned in the Bible as someone who says Jesus didn’t come in the flesh. Any other reference to an “Antichrist” character is a premill eisegetical novelty. I’m sorry my friend, but Jesus is king of kings and lord of lords NOW. And He will continue to reign until he makes all his enemies a footstool for his feet 1 Corinthians 15:25-26
@@JustinHonaker I've thought about that kind of thing, but unfortunately I'm fresh out of church seeds lol but seriously, i don't have the resources OR the skills necessary to do that. Great idea tho!
Hey Apologia I love all you guys and I love Pastor Emilio. What is the story behind your Apologia symbol? The triangle icon. Why not a Cross? Just curious thanks and God bless
Paul assumes in Ephesians that kids are in the congregation and says children obey your parents in the Lord. Paul assumes that children of believers are in the congregation, that they are a part of the congregation. Isn’t Paul assuming that children of believers are also believers?
I was taught, similarly to what Jeff professed, that essential Christian Theology is where we stand in our faith and that we must be careful regarding those beliefs not central to our faith to not separate us as brothers and sisters. That said, I think that it is nearly impossible to separate Eschatology as one of those. What you believe, at the foot of the cross about our Lord Jesus, will directly instruct your view of His promise about his return, and what we ought to be doing until then.
Regenerated Cosmos Hebrews 1: 10And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: 11They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; 12And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.
Theonomy is just a matter of recognizing that God has called all men to repentance including Kings. How in light of Rom 13:4 must a ruler repent? He must repent of looking to anything or anyone else(including the popular opinion of the people) then God whose servant he is to be for the ultimate instruction on how he is to rule. He is to repent of not being an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil. He is to repent of having and enforcing laws which brings wrath on the one who practices good.
When I became postmil, I had to say; how could I say such a thing to such a King. What I mean by that is; how could I have said to the King of kings and Lord of lords “yeh you’re King, but things don’t look so good, and I just see things getting worse”. How could I have said such a disrespectful to such a mighty and worthy King who has all authority in heaven and on earth. And I felt the weight of the words “Luke 24:25 (ASV): And he said unto them, O foolish men, and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken!”
Kingdom is grows . Who says this world is ruled by Satan , dispensation premillennialism or A millennium , they are not truly worshiping Lord Jesus ! Dispensation theology is made by Jews . Zionist .
Jesus literally said that it will be as in the days of Noah before He returns. Which means the world will be so bad that evil with be unrestrained, which is why the judgment of the world happens then
@@AustinGonder ... That's a good point, but isn't that counter to postmil? Jeff seems to say things are getting better "until all of God's enemies are as a footstool," but you're saying that the world is heading toward unrestrained evil, as in the day of Noah, then He comes. Are you not postmil like Jeff. I'm just learning this stuff.
@@AustinGonder But what was the point of Jesus comparing the day of his return to the days of Noah? Did he make reference to the sinfulness of the people? Matthew 24: 36ff - But concerning that day and hour *no one knows,* not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only. For as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. For as in those days before the flood *they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage,* until the day when Noah entered the ark, and *they were unaware* until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. Is "eating" and "drinking" and "marrying" and "giving in marriage" a description of sinful activity? Not at all. Rather, the point seem to be that the people were living their lives normally, doing everyday activities, even looking to the future by starting new families, and nothing about that particular day stood out as being extraordinary until the sudden flood. Jesus seems to be making the point that the day of his return will look like any other day. He makes no mention of how fallen the world will be at that time. And it's hard to imagine Jesus (and Matthew) being so inconstant that he both taught that the church would be so successful that it would lay siege to the gates of hell and the gates would not withstand the assault (16: 17ff), and yet at the same time in this verse the church will be the one who is unable to defend itself against the sin of the world and Jesus led the church to failed in its mission. Did Jesus change his mind? Did Matthew make a mistake? Or is perhaps this verse being misunderstood.
See when the rubber meets the road, a bad theology on eschatology reveals a lot of unbelief. Thank you brothers for all the work you are doing. The good works God prepared for you to walk in!
Read 1 Corinthians 6:1-11. This is a devastating blow to the modern day Church that thinks Christians ought not judge anyone. In fact, the Bible says the exact opposite; Christians ought to judge in all matters pertaining to this life on earth, and are the only ones fit to do so, by presupposing, that; 1) God is the lawgiver and judge-Isaiah 33:22; 2 Corinthians 5:1-12. 2) God sets His law as the standard for justice and righteousness-Isaiah 28:5-29. 3) God’s law concerning all things is right, every other way is false-Psalm 119:124-128. 4) God’s law is liberty-Psalm 119:45; James 1:22-25. 5) God’s law is perfect-Psalm 19:7-11; James 1:22-25. 6) God’s law is to be respected-Psalm 119:6-7. 7) God’s law is truth-Nehemiah 9:13-14; Psalm 19:7-11, 119:142, 119:151, 119:160; Galatians 5:7-8; Revelation 16:5-7. 8) God’s law as the apple of our eyes-Proverbs 7:1-4.
Hallelujah Born Again Pilipinas or Philippines Spiritual revival is coming so very, very near in my nation Philippines in Jesus Christ Holy, Mighty, Great and Powerful name I pray Amen.
We must read literature on each other’s different beliefs on secondary issues!!! Let’s get to know each other, half the time we believe the same things but we don’t know the context, or know why we believe what we do. We seek to prove our stance with the Bible, rather than building our stance based on what the Bible says, by the way, I’m post mill since last year, thanks apologia lol
I see pastor Emilio's point in churches, because they are sitting on that view, do not go out there and share the gospel because it's time to go!! They will be judge according to their seeds and so will the Christians according to their un-deeds
I think the point you made in the beginning was good…eschatological teachings and beliefs should not lead to breaking fellowship. Sadly, when we dive into detail and perspectives, it does in some cases. The battle is already won-let us always remember that. I want to interject my opinion. I know Apologia takes Matthew 28 as their foundation for discipling nations and post millennialism. I neither agree with pre or post. I would lean more towards amillennialism which I could go into detail at a later date. Matthew 28 says to make disciples of all nations. This does not assume making all nations disciples. Why? Because scripture speaks about a constant conflict between the church and the world. We will be hated because of the name of Christ we bear. We are called to bring individuals, to Christ. The majority will not be saved. Matthew 7 reminds us that MANY will claim to know Christ, but He will not know them. The gate is narrow and we should “agonize” to enter through it. Theonomy and theocracy is true…if people followed God’s decrees and standards life would be better and “golden”. Sadly, the world does not seek those things. This world is blind by the god of this world. This world loves evil and will until Christ returns. When Christ comes back it’s a wrap! Every eye will see Him and judgement begins with the church. (No secret rapture) Christ establishes the Kingdom and New Earth, not the church. The Bible is explicit in numerous texts that the world will get worse, but our hope and joy lie in Christ and His return. When Christianity is looked at as a societal structure, it breeds complacency in those who are part of it because the assumption is if you are part of the group, you don’t need to be evangelized because you are already “saved” by association. Kind of like what this nation has already done. I could go more into this but remember, we live in a world where people know right from wrong, they just love wrong because they are sinners and enemies of God. Urgency should be in the church to preach and live the Gospel because many will face judgement and live in an eternal hell. You’re not changing culture, that’s not our calling in scriptures. Make disciples of all nations-meaning individuals from every tribe and group and society! Not ALL individuals…but have that kind of zeal! Sow seeds, pray for the ground it lands on that it grabs hold. Christ reminds us that there is a 1 out of 4 chance it actually takes root and grows fruit.
I actually agree with this. I was listening to Wilson the other day and your point about making disciples of all nations does not imply that all nations (sociological - I probably applied that word incorrectly but you will get my meaning) will come to know Christ. All nations is in reference to people groups whom the Lord will save across all societal boundaries (someone help me with a better definition), Wilson suggested otherwise in his podcast. I cannot at all agree with that perspective. Not a bit. But who am I? I'm not nearly as knowledgeable as Jeff and Doug. Not even close. But I am having a renewed perspective that is reorienting my faith in the person and Hope we have in Christ - not in a hope that political nations are going to be Christianized. Maybe, but I don't see this focus for Christians to have in the pages of Scripture. Don't get me wrong. We need to know how to present the Gospel in the current state of affairs we find ourselves in and in so doing we will be effective in the defense of the Gospel (This is Schaefferian presuppositional apologetics). But this is why our moral document in the Constitution is systematically undermined. The World hates the Gospel and the Hope we have. It will seek to be accountable to no one and embrace evil and licentiousness and therefore it can only start at the grassroot level - individuals one at a time with our family being the most basic in raising children to fear God. This spreads out from there into a positive change in society. So God calls individuals to implement godly laws but the godless will resist - always until Christ renews all things.
I’d look into partial preterism & PostMill some more…I was cringing at a lot of your comments 😬. Satan is not the “god of this world.” He had much more free reign in the OT but when Christ came to earth he bound the strong man and Satan is on a chain & unable to deceive the nations as the gospel goes forth. Christ is King. He’s ruling & reigning NOW.
@@SerenityNow22 this is absolutely NOT true. What Christ did was preserve for himself a people that would live victoriously by faith, through Christ's victory over sin and death and resist the devil. Satan is far from being bound. I don't know where on earth you can make such a statement that the Bible states that. Where is this idea found in scripture? The only part I can agree with you on is the fact that Christ is sitting on the throne ruling the nations with an iron fist. Judgement is a means of demonstrating he rules and not man and we are under judgment now. But he has preserved a remnant for himself that will serve him in heart and not just give lip service like the Gospel Coalition. The nations are clearly tools of Satan and he is on no chain but the Lord allows him free reign - even to persecute His people, to refine them as thru fire that they might come out as Gold even as they perish from the face of the earth.
Reading the NY times article now. Kinda wondering why she refers to Jeff as "Mr." Durbin. If she covered any other pastor, wouldn't she refer to them as "Pastor [Durbin]?" I appreciate Jeff praising her fairness, but it feels like a not-so-subtle dig.
I theorize it is because she views him with more of a respect as a legitimate threat. In her world 'Mr' is better regarded than 'Pastor' and certainly in terms of making somebody out to be dangerous. Just my take.
@@robertknight3354 I think BECAUSE she views him as a legitimate threat, she uses "Mr." to divorce him from his congregational authority. Imagine writing an article about MLK and making reference to "Mr. King" as opposed to "Reverend King." It's a way of de-emphasizing the authority Pastor Durbin enjoys as the leader of a growing movement.
The post millennium theory will win again. Because it is the truth of God and the truth of the Word written by God. The Post millennium theory inspires and encourages people's hearts, fills them with the power of God, and puts them the flag of Christ's victory in every territory, like those ancient great saints and the old Puritans, and casts all thoughts and activities. It's an eschatology that turns it into a victory soldier
The Yerba you get in the yellow can is very high in sugar. It would be good if you brewed it yourself and drank it out of a gourd with a bombila.....much stronger and more healthy
ive been working out extra hard lately and my stomach still isnt flat. i just realized yesterday that it was the Yerb's haha. i cut them out as of just today lol 😭
Us pre-mills don’t believe this world will be destroyed and create a new one. We believe God will restore this earth new and be made perfect again. Easy to see the post trib pre-mill view without adding or taking away from scripture if we properly exegesis the scripture.
@Jason Jones When I was premil I was taught ( and this was the popular view among Pentecostals and charismatics) that the world as if is was going to be burned up 2 Peter 3:10 and the new Heaven and Earth was going to come down along with the New Jerusalem Revelation 21:1-3. And this seemed and still seems to be the universal teaching with premillennialist today.
@@graylad My generation don’t believe in a “secret” rapture or that God is going to destroy this earth and create a new one. That pre-trib view is fading away. Post trib and Post mill believe the same besides when the tribulation takes place. Post trib views believe God’s kingdom is here and Christ is reigning on the throne. We are all waiting for the second coming.
Granted that all law is morality and that a society’s God is reflected in its highest source of law. The question is does Christ’s law recognize or assume constitutional popular sovereignty over one party rule? I think we would say that it does. I think most here would agree. The question of oppressive law has two sides, there is the objective side, what God wills, but then there is the application/subjective side, can it be implemented for us as we are. That is, what sort of sanctification is required for us as a society before we stop resisting the will of God as good. And given human sinfulness, even for Christians, what is the right amount of legal restriction versus private enforcement and judgment. These are the deep issues. Pastor Emilio is assuming certain sinful reactions against righteous standards, but there will always be some such reaction. The question is what is the righteous standard (both ideally, to be worked toward, and practically, can be implemented now) for us who live between the comings of Jesus.
[I’ll keep the screen shot since I do believe my first attempt to post was taken down, but here’s what I’ll say for now]: I will take the engaged Pilgrim's gospel, not the reconstructionist/theonomist/postmillennial gospel. Hebrews 11.13-16. Also, probably 95% (or more) of the world's population is unregenerate consisting of Islam/Hinduism/Bhuddism (not to mention Catholicism, pseudo-Christian cults, animism, secularism, atheism etc). We are in the "present evil age" - it has always been dark. Consequently, Van Til would direct you to Vos, Bavinck, and the Reformed Confessions (all futurist/Amillennialism). The second Helvetic Confession refers to "postmill" eschatology as "Jewish Dreams" because of its geo-physical understanding of the kingdom which results in a "third age" which is sub-eschatological and a “third” category simply not taught by Jesus and the apostles (they had a two-age structure- NOTE: all "realized eschatology" is redemptive via our union with Christ and not increasing but only awaits the consummation). As Vos put it "The chief end for which Israel had been created was not to teach the world lessons in political economy, but in the midst of a world of paganism to teach true religion, even at the sacrifice of much secular propaganda and advantage. (Biblical Theology: Old and New Testaments (Eugene, OR: Wipf & Stock Publishers, 2003), 125. It is not the kingdom of God via political-rationalism that is emerging, but the kingdom of antichrist via a Oneist world system under a great delusion which only Christ will destroy at His glorious coming (2 Th. 2.4-12). Stay faithful, His "reward' comes with Him! The great commission is lived out in the epistles and we see that our execution of the great commission has nothing to do with reconstructionism, and all about enveloping God’s elect into the communion of saints in the Church by presenting each man mature in Christ!
It is true, in my mind and limited understanding, that when God does a work of transformation (healing) in our lives Jesus instructs them to "go tell". I'm also thinking about the teachers of the law telling Peter and John to "stop teaching in this name" and their response was, "...we cannot help but...". If all Christians behaved in exactly the same, the world would again be turned upside down right? Well as it was a work of God at that time it is also the work of God in our time that his church is renewed and judged - which in turn renews society. The law of God implanted, produces fruit in society. Teachers like Jeff, James, Doug, AD, Jon, Allie and Peters and Webben as well as many others are required by God to act as a Christians by warning them, as the scriptures do, for the church to wake up from their slumber and do what is right. Those who have ears to hear heed their call and those who don't will strain out a knat. Therefore it is always about reconstruction and renewal. We are salt and therefore salt must be salty and God brings judgement to the church first if it does not do what the Lord has commanded - he raises up 5000 "who have not bowed the knee to Baal" which is proof that God is in control and knows what he is about. Too much more to say, but others can say it far better than I and Jeff did it quite well I think.
@Emilio Ramos, What is τὸ εὐαγγέλιον τῆς βασιλείας --- the Gospel of the kingdom, in Matthew 4:23? How is the kingdom described throughout the Gospels? You said a lot here, but a lot of it can be agreed from a postmil perspective, other than your presuppositions of amillennialism. By the way, I would caution calling all the OT prophecies about the coming kingdom (that did come) and the peace along with it as "Jewish dreams." They're not "dreams." They are realities that God Himself EXPRESSLY says He will accomplish through His bride.
@@joeadrian2860 It is about reconstruction and renewal, of the heart and mind of the new believer, who dies to desires of the flesh and surrenders their will to the Lord's will. In doing so, the old man is put to death and the new man is being formed "reconstructed". But to leave the clear teachings and examples of Jesus and Apostles in the New Testament on how they carried out their faith and great commission, through spiritual means (purely the gospel and discipleship) and not carnal means (political & societal reconstruction, etc.), by departing from the clear examples of scripture and twisting biblical terminology meant for each believer in Christ, to now have a more worldly and carnal meaning is very concerning. But honestly, what is even more concerning is how one professing faith in Christ cannot discern God's will and identify Christ's kingdom and whether or not it is here now or is yet to come based on the scriptures.
@@matts.6558 Matt, I think I have a problem with your wish to separate and therefore compartmentalize the two "spheres". I'm thinking of, right now, James' admonition to "show me your faith by what you do" (my paraphrase) and this clearly deconstructs (to continue to use such terminology) the idea of one's "spiritual" world not overlapping into the "carnal" as you choose to use it. Our Christianity necessitates forays clearly into the world in which we live and seeks to impact it for Christ. I do not think that this is at all a stretch of the meaning of Scripture. As Jeff and others like to use the phrase "All of Christ for All of Life" seems quite appropriate. But perhaps I am misunderstanding and misrepresenting what you are saying to me Matt. If I am then accept my apology.
@@joeadrian2860 Thanks for your response. No, that's not exactly what I was saying but your objection is a common one when the topic is brought up. A "new creation" or born again believer will of course have some level of impact on the surrounding world.....light in darkness....salt....although impacting the world in a societal or political sense was not at all the context of James' demand of a display of faith (be careful not to add to the text to change context)...moreover, to confuse God's will from being a RESCUE mission (hence the word salvation - to save or salvage something) simply accomplished through the preaching of the gospel and discipleship, into a CHANGE mission (political, societal, governmental, etc.) and building a kingdom here on earth in the physical before Christ returns is to misunderstand the scriptures and the will of God. We wrestle not against flesh and blood, are weapons of warfare are not carnal, and if you haven't noticed the Armor of God in Ephesians is mostly defensive in nature, our only offence is the sword of the Spirit, the Word of God. Hopefully this helps clarify, but at the end of the day my question/point remains, we have the scriptures which clearly provide examples of how Jesus and the Apostles lived and how they carried out God's will preaching the Gospel and discipleship. Nowhere in scripture do we see them setting up any kind of kingdom here on earth through societal change, political means, etc. Peter referred to Christians as sojourners for a reason, because this isn't our home or His kingdom (yet). Do not be deceived brother. If you have scriptures from the New Testament clearly charging Christians with the reconstruction of the earth's systems into obedience under God and His law, please show me? To be clear, I am already aware of the prophecies about Christ's kingdom and rule and what it will look like, I am requesting NT guidance from Jesus and the Apostles on doing this in the here and now?
Are there any other religions that used to sacrifice animals that no longer do? If so, what reason do they give if they dont believe Jesus was the final sacrifice?
I think many people would really enjoy a friendly conversation or debate between pastor Durbin and pastor white vs pastor MacArthur and another pastor that hold pre trib view. I think it would really bless many to see how they would defend their points and refute other points. I have always struggled with this part of the Bible i see valid points on both sides.
My biggest thing with the postmill and Amill camp is this, how is Satan bound? You have to tussle with what Peter clearly says in the text, the adversary lurks around like a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour. Satan is not yet bound, if this is the kingdom then Satan is bound. We clearly see that he's operating in this world and with fierce destruction.
@Jonathan Thomas I love this breakdown and it is very edifying, especially since I've been on the fence for a while with my eschatological view. I don't see a pretrib rapture, but I am historical premill, I wrestle a lot with text like Peter's and when you hear verses that call Satan the prince of the power of the air. And when Jesus says that my kingdom is not of this world, and we await the millennial kingdom which comes from above, the new Jerusalem. I totally see how the gospel is reaching places like never before, and I do believe Christ is reigning and God is absolutely sovereign. I also understand the purpose of how America was founded and the intent behind it, although I think America is actually the beast from revelation 13. But as for myself, I just want to fulfill the great commission until the return of Messiah 🙏🏼
@Jonathan Thomas I found the last chapter of Bahnsen’s “Victory In Jesus: the Bright Hope of Postmillennialism” on the person, work and present status of Satan to be extremely helpful in understanding this topic. Satan is bound currently, but like a rabid dog tied to a post: he can still do some damage, but he is doing so only insofar as Christ is letting him. Luke 11:14-23
@Jonathan Thomas Bahnsen talks about in 1 Peter 5:8, how Satan’s walk is compared to that of a roaring lion, not himself personally. Peter says Satan is not himself a lion but is likening his walk and behavior to that of a roaring lion. Bahnsen then goes on to discuss the OT symbolism of lions and essentially asks the question “why do lions roar?” To instill fear. “In 1 Peter 5:8, we do not see Satan represented in his secret and subtle activities as the adversary of God’s people; we see him as the ferocious threat by persecutors against believers.” I think these are important points to consider and contemplate.
He’s going to be bound during the millennial reign not before. This is why you still see him at work. “He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.” Revelation 20:2-3
_"God must change hearts which provides the means to changing the world. He brings in the Kingdom, not us."_ I hope you aren't saying that because you think it opposes Theonomy. It doesn't, that is the foundational presupposition the Theonomist has for how a Theonomic society arises. The church is not like the kingdoms of the world. When we march out in battle, our armor is the Holy Spirit and our weapon is the gospel, the double edge sword that proceeds from the mouth of Christ. That is the only sword that will bring people to want to reject what seems right in their own eyes and model their entire lives, including their civil order, after what Christ has commanded.
@@oracleoftroy However you may find this to be the case, Covenant Theology dictates that the premise of theonomy as proposed by many is incorrect. The Civil Laws along with the Ceremonial Laws have passed away as we are under a new dispensation of grace. However, for the purpose of applying the Moral Law the *principles* of the Civil and Ceremonial Laws remain in effect as they are the Moral Law's outworking for the Israelites at that time.
@@savingassent _"The Civil Laws along with the Ceremonial Laws have passed away as we are under a new dispensation of grace."_ That's not true in covenant theology. Covenant Theology, at least historically (so not NCT or the Baptist version), presumes continuity of the covenants. The ceremonial law for example is still with us and is fulfilled in Jesus, which is why we can eat bacon. That's different from those who would say Jesus abolished the ceremonial law, thus making bacon OK. So too there are "sundry judicial laws" given to Israel as expressed in a particular cultural way unique to that time and people, yet the general equity of that law does require obligation for Christians today (per WCF 19.4). _"However, for the purpose of applying the Moral Law the principles of the Civil and Ceremonial Laws remain in effect as they are the Moral Law's outworking for the Israelites at that time."_ I would go beyond mere principles and point to the general equity of the law. But I'm open to us maybe meaning the same thing.
The world can, has been, and is being changed by laws. Why do you think that here in American, and most of the western world, there is no more racial slavery? Why do you think we have become a murderous nation? The laws do change the way people act. They may not change the hearts of men, but the fear of punishment does cause change.
Sometimes but not always, prohibition was repealed because no one was abiding by it. In the next decade we will see the repeal of a great many drug laws as well as the federal legalization of marijuana because people weren’t obeying those laws. I think as long as the majority either believe in the laws or fear the government sufficiently then yes behavior can be changed by laws. But when that isn’t the case then the laws often get removed. Covid policies were a good example of this. States where people obeyed kept them longer and went stronger. States where people ignored the laws repealed them.
Nope. That's not what he argued about Peter at all. If you read it or were listening to the show you wouldn't have come to that conclusion. That would take effort however. We believe in the literal account of Genesis. Perhaps you should come to conclusions more cautiously?
@@ApologiaStudios 2 Peter 3:5-7 ESV For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens that existed long ago, and the earth that was formed out of water and through water by the word of God, and that by means of these the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished. But by the same word the heavens and earth which now exist are stored up for fire, being kept for the day of judgement and destruction of the ungodly. Peter is clearly drawing the line from the OT flood destroying the world in judgement to the judgement of this world in fire. If I am to believe that the fire is spiritual cleansing I would need to believe the same thing with the flood of Noah's day. John Owen was a godly man, but this is inconsistent. Within two sentences.
A normal, literal interpretation of Scripture rejects postmillennialism and holds to a normal interpretation of all Scripture, including unfulfilled prophecy. We have hundreds of examples in Scripture of prophecies being fulfilled. Take, for example, the prophecies concerning Christ in the Old Testament. Those prophecies were fulfilled literally. Consider the virgin birth of Christ (Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:23). Consider His death for our sins (Isaiah 53:4-9; 1 Peter 2:24). These prophecies were fulfilled literally, and that is reason enough to assume that God will continue in the future to literally fulfill His Word. Postmillennialism fails in that it interprets Bible prophecy subjectively and holds that the millennial kingdom will be established by the church, not by Christ Himself.
@@johntrevett2944 You are letting the word "normal" carry far too much weight for your argument. What is "normal"? Postmil idea have been around for 2000 years, would that not quality as normal? I'm not sure what "literally" means in your usage either, as Postmil fulfillment of the church filling the world like yeast in bread or a pebble becoming a mountain seems to fit fairly literally, whereas most other views don't have the kingdom of God actually meeting those prophesies in quite so straightforward a way. In fact, they seem to take "filling the earth" as being all but eliminated from the earth. And who is the head of the church? Is it not none other than Christ Himself? Anything the church accomplishes it does so because of its head.
It seems to me that if Postmillennialism is true, then the adherents of it are confused or mistaken in their timeline. Based on my study, the golden age of Church influence in the world was the previous 200 years or so, and we're now in the bad end times that this eschatology postulates. Personally I think the main theme of kingdom come, aside from glory and the triumph of Jesus Christ, will be astonishment at how we all got it so wrong.
Wow, that explanation bout the film was slick. Could have just said ya I still got some world in me. I mean, don't we all until we are with Christ Jesus?
Side note, for those of you who don't know.. star wars didn't have the vulgarity through out the film to ANY degree of every other word being the worst vulgar one could muster up, like Quentins film.
I’m confused about what was said starting at 1:06:54 about the Spirit being in believers and how this is what’s new about the new covenant. Believers didn’t have the Holy Spirit in them in the old covenant? Believers didn’t have the law written on their hearts in the old covenant? None of the prophets, Noah, Abraham, David, etc…none of these guys had the Spirit?
interesting point 👉 I think it's not fully because of Jesus dying on thr cross. It is finished completion. I'm trying to expand on thus but I'm not a Pastor and studied theology but I'm trying to learn and I take the finished work on the cross to mean that you can now have the holy spirit because of that.
I have not found much in the way of post millennialism prior to the 1500-1600s. Premillennialism goes back to the early days of the church, as well as amillenialism. Yet, premillennialism is continually claimed as new? Dispensationalism? Yes, it's new. Please be more clear.
From what I can tell, "amillenialism" wasn't distinct from "postmillenialim" until recently, like within the last 100ish years. Before that people just used postmillenialim for all the related ideas. It's a bit anachronistic to claim a person is amil before then. An NGram search shows the first usages of the term in books to be around 1926. Even the term postmil seems relatively new, appearing around 1846. Yet obviously the views go back way further than that. It's not clear to me that the early Christians amil claims as their own shouldn't be seen as postmil, except by a very narrowly defined ahistorical definition.
Yes, all of creation is being renewed, not redone. Just like now, believers are a "new creation" but still in our physical bodies. So eventually there will be, in our future, people living again for centuries such that dying at 100 years is considered young. Even the animal kingdom will show the curse being pushed back so that wolf and and lamb will graze together and carnivores turning back to herbivores. However there is still death going on, but the effects of the curse are in retreat. This is yet to be realized, but is still way off in the future in our present age. Perhaps 1,000s more years ahead. No, I don't believe we are currently in the "last days" as stated in NT verses. Those verses are talking about the last days of the old covenant age that ended forever when Jerusalem and Temple were destroyed in 70AD. I believe according to Romans 11 that one day many ethnic Jews around the world will believe in Christ and be grafted back in. The result of that will bring about the changes I described above, as Paul said, "like life from the dead". when they are grafted back in. This then is fulfilling the foreshadow of the final Israel feast, the Feast of Purim in Esther which occurred when Jews were scattered about the nations, like still today. "Therefore they called these days Purim, after the term Pur. Therefore, because of all that was written in this letter, and of what they had faced in this matter, and of what had happened to them, the Jews firmly obligated themselves and their offspring and all who joined them, that without fail they would keep these two days according to what was written and at the time appointed every year, that these days should be remembered and kept throughout every generation, in every clan, province, and city, and that these days of Purim should never fall into disuse among the Jews, nor should the commemoration of these days cease among their descendants. Then Queen Esther, the daughter of Abihail, and Mordecai the Jew gave full written authority, confirming this second letter about Purim. Letters were sent to all the Jews, to the 127 provinces of the kingdom of Ahasuerus, in words of peace and truth, that these days of Purim should be observed at their appointed seasons, as Mordecai the Jew and Queen Esther obligated them, and as they had obligated themselves and their offspring, with regard to their fasts and their lamenting. The command of Esther confirmed these practices of Purim, and it was recorded in writing" Esther 9:26-32
FACT: The Calvinist Puritan revolutionaries who fought the War of 1776 would have lost to the English army if not for the Catholics of France who sabotaged the English effort at the end of the conflict... thus giving the colonials their victory. Vive la France! 🙂🙂🙂
I love y'all to death brochocho.. but I couldn't get past the seed part. To watch you crash and burn so hard on the movie poster part, I couldn't take much more.. I only after that could see you knowing in your heart that films wrong for you to be watching..
I’m just struggling so hard to understand this point of view. If everyone is going to be converted, where does hell play a part in all of this? Also why wouldn’t everyone just satisfy their fleshly desires knowing that it has no consequences and everyone is going to be saved in the end anyways? I genuinely want to understand what I’m missing here.
Have you heard of limited atonement. There is a certain number of people chosen before the foundation who Christ died for. I prefer "definite atonement" I think is more correct. As I see it, like I said before, there is a certain number of elected people who will be saved, and when all of the elected are saved, which in the end times will be the majority living in that time, then Christ's reign will be complete. And resurrection will take place, the judging of all people, and finally new heaven and new earth for the righteous to live in forever. Thats how I understand it. Peace and blessimgs, brother
Funny...... Had a Pastor once say: How many here are perfect? Raise your hand, HE raised his and few others did as well, He said, I have been imputed with Christ righteousness and all my sins are forgiven and when God sees me, HE sees Jesus! Hmm I bet Ananias and Sapphira Acts 5 would disagree with that
50:28 Emilio says a lot of “it can never…” but does nothing to substantiate his opinion. Emilio is Amillennial; therefore, it is clear that his Presuppositions are based on a pessimistic eschatology that sees evil as too powerful for the church to have victory over. I think Jeff has mentioned this before, but Jesus in Matthew 16:18 makes it clear that the gates of hades will not be able to prevail against the church. In other words, the church is on the offensive, hades is on the defensive and the church throughout history will bulldoze all that stands in the way of the Kingdom of God and the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
Question. Many reformed church's that do not hold to a eschatology of postmil accuse this end time view of idolizing the " Church" and failure to understand the spiritual aspect of Christ's Church. What say you?
“Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.” 1 Corinthians 15:24-25 ESV I believe Christ is ruling and reigning now and the Gospel is going forth as well. I also believe that the nations will be “Christianized” but to what degree is where we differ. I do not believe that the world will be come predominantly Christian before Christ returns. That is not explicit in Scripture. If Christ is ruling and reigning now could you definitively say no to the fact that Christ hasn’t already put all enemies under his feet? I don’t think from the Scriptures we could say either yes or no. Only God knows. With that being said, the below text from Jesus does say that both the wheat and the tares grow together. Can Christ not come again prior to a “Christianized” world? Who defines what a “Christianized” or “golden age” looks like? “Let both grow together until the harvest, and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, “Gather the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn.”’”” Matthew 13:30 ESV I believe almost all the tenants of post mil accept for the christianizing of the world. This is why I remain Amil. Blessings to you and your awesome ministry!
Regarding the validity of theonomy ala Bahnsen. Totally agree that a Christian view of civil Government will maintain the distinction between church and state. The question of penology (standards of criminal punishment) is a difficult one though. Some penalties are prescribed in the law, but even in cases were there was a death penalty, say for kidnapping, there appear to be a range of penalties based upon mitigating circumstances. Thus even the law recognized a sort of common law flexibility that would adjust to time and circumstance as far as penalties are concerned (adultery is still adultery no matter time or place, though Jesus no longer tolerates polygamy). Systematically, in my judgement, the difficulty with theonomy is it leans so heavy upon God’s immutability, such that it ignores the way that the Mosaic covenant is not just amended but restated in the New Covenant. When a legal document is restated it can have the same form, but there is no necessity of the continuity of content. Of course with the New Covenant and the Old there is continuity, but it is based upon God’s character and the order he created with the world. But it’s not the OC itself that is authoritative, as it is but a window into being able to discern the local from the universal. It is a very different conceptual world to say that Paul uses the plowing Ox to gain insight into the moral order of the universe (I.e. Paul is discerning the universally binding will of God by means of a law that he saw as local and temporary), verses that he is looking upon the law as an eternally binding order to which some amendments have been made for sacrifice and circumcision. Maybe the points of disagreement between Theonomy and New Covenant theology (or progressive covenantal Ian) are not so significant because both use the Mosaic law to triangulate the universally binding moral law, but the way Theonomy attempts to affirm anything in the OT unless explicitly amended in the NT seems to undersell Paul’s “all or nothing approach” to covenant keeping in Galatians 2-3. In the NC it seems that the NT appeals to God’s universal character as the standard for morals, and looks to special revelation by Jesus and the Apostles in the new covenant, natural moral reflection and a wisdom approach to law in the OT to obtain this moral standard. So it is God’s law we strive for, but is God’s law (standards for us) as found in the OT as unchanging as God’s moral character? It would seem not. Does it simply have to be modified? It would seem not, for to take on circumcision is to take on all of the laws obligations. So what does one take on in the New Covenant? We take on the Christ’s royal law which James speaks of. But it is not an OT minus, it’s actually a new covenant. It’s grounded in the old yes, but it is not the old law. Thoughts? Correctives?
I don't know what you mean by perfection _again_ but assuming you mean a "very good" world where the curse and death of sin is defeated, that is the final enemy that is defeated when Christ finally returns on the last day and we enter the eternal state with glorified bodies. Until then, the gospel has the power to change hearts and minds and even while societies for the better, but sin will still be around as well, even as the church grows and the nations repent and turn to Christ.
Those people pointing out the movies and the bad things in them are not saying that you said that you approve of them. They are saying that you shouldn't have those posters up because of the profanity.
Revelations 5: 1-5 says Jesus is a man, even while he is in heaven. Hebrews calls Jesus a man, Romans 5:19 says "for by the sin of one man sin entered the world, and by the righteousness of one may all be made righteous".
59:00 to the end Totally threw Pastor Emilio under the bus to promote his own view. But does say on core values, the same. Which was edifying, so stick to the core values. Are people going to be saved and transformed by arguing points of theology or by loving the lost. You stand on one side of the street I the other, same location, different perspective.
I’m sure you saw this, but may go back to 35:10 and listen again to Jeff’s explanation of why he addresses this. It is important to have solid biblical teaching on second and third tier issues as well as the core ones. They aren’t irrelevant; what we believe on these things affects how we live. As a Christian trying to live my life according to God’s word; I always appreciate the back and forth between men of God to explain their positions and respond to objections.
I agree, the fact that a doctrine was believed by some one or some group in history does not, by itself, make it true. He doesn’t say so either. No, he doesn’t give a thorough exegesis of the texts here (though he does touch on some), if you would like I’d be happy to point you to other videos that do that. But that doesn’t seem to be your concern. You say, who cares, just preach the word. I agree in so far as this-no matter our eschatology we should all be sharing the gospel. Very good, have you seen Apologia’s evangelism ministry? I disagree that we should never bother to wrestle with and understand the word better on secondary matters. These are the teachings of God’s word; presumably He gave them to us for a good reason. ALL scripture is profitable for teaching, reproof, correction, and training in righteousness. In praying for God’s kingdom to come, is it of no importance to understand the nature of that kingdom?
Interestingly enough you complain that Jeff & co shouldn’t worry about a brother’s secondary theology, but that is exactly what Pastor Emilio is doing in the clip they are addressing.
@@kaylar3197 true on the impact of how we live why it must be accurate. My issue with post millennial thought is that I don't see it scripturally. And he states somewhere around the 40 minute mark that you have to go back to the text but yet he goes off on a tangent about standing on some big shoulders....puritans etc. Proofs needed, as I just don't see it. in scripture. But what I do see is that regardless of the accuracy of post millennial or otherwise we've got one job we have to do and that is to be honor God the preach the Word so all may hear and and His Kingdom may be ushered in.
Amen! We must stand shoulder to shoulder in that work. As far as I can tell Jeff is doing just that with Pastor Emilio. If you would like to hear a biblical explanation of the postmillennial perspective, you could search postmil on this channel and look for results that are sermons. ChristKirk is also a great resource for this; here’s an intro to postmil from them: m.th-cam.com/video/Ys6_Th7rvW0/w-d-xo.html It is a paradigm shift, you won’t see it the first time it’s taught because you have a different structure in your mind. It will throw everything off - until you see it and everything clicks.
Those who hold to postmillennialism believe that this world will become better and better-all evidence to the contrary notwithstanding-with the entire world eventually becoming “Christianized.” After this happens, Christ will return. However, this is not the view of the world in the end times that Scripture presents. From the book of Revelation, it is easy to see that the world will be a terrible place during that future time. Also, in 2 Timothy 3:1-7, Paul describes the last days as “terrible times.” Those who hold to postmillennialism use a non-literal method of interpreting unfulfilled prophecy, often interpreting prophetic passages allegorically. The problem with this is that when the normal meaning of a passage is abandoned, its meaning can become entirely subjective. All objectivity concerning the meaning of words is lost. When words lose their meaning, communication ceases. However, this is not how God has intended for language and communication to be. God communicates to us through His written word, with objective meanings to words, so that ideas and thoughts can be communicated. A normal, literal interpretation of Scripture rejects postmillennialism and holds to a normal interpretation of all Scripture, including unfulfilled prophecy. We have hundreds of examples in Scripture of prophecies being fulfilled. Take, for example, the prophecies concerning Christ in the Old Testament. Those prophecies were fulfilled literally. Consider the virgin birth of Christ (Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:23). Consider His death for our sins (Isaiah 53:4-9; 1 Peter 2:24). These prophecies were fulfilled literally, and that is reason enough to assume that God will continue in the future to literally fulfill His Word. Postmillennialism fails in that it interprets Bible prophecy subjectively and holds that the millennial kingdom will be established by the church, not by Christ Himself.
Not completely. But only that the gospel would be preached throughout the whole Roman empire by 70AD, and it was. The term "world" in Matthew 24 does not refer to the entire globe, but the inhabited region of that day.
He really should have read the book of Daniel for those 30 days then approached the book of Revelation. Also the bible itself and the apostles all believed that Jesus could return at any time. They lived that way as well.
Right, that proved Postmill. Every generation believes he is "coming soon" but he hasn't yet. So what do we do in the meantime? We make disciples of the nations. Like Postmill says
I agree with everything theologically. As far as eschatology goes, I’m still up in the air. I want to be a post millennialist, but I have yet to hear any post mill folks address all of the things that are happening right in front of our eyes that match up perfectly with Revelation.. we’ve literally got a one world government forming right now that wants a one world currency that wants a one world religion. Also, they are already talking about not being able to buy or sell if you don’t have a good social credit score or a vaccine passport or whatever… I would love to hear someone square away all of the stuff that’s happening in the world right before our eyes and you can say that it’s all happened in the past but if you really are honest about it, nothing going on today has happened in the past. For instance, why is the UN building built and modeled after the unfinished tower of babel? Why is there one seat inside the UN sanctuary that is above the other nine or 10 seats in the front and it’s seat number is literally 666? Are they just doing that to mess with us? What would be the thing that happens to make even the most staunch post Miller a believer in the actual seven year tribulation an actual antichrist rising to power? I have been searching, high and low for any videos, or any podcasts, where all of the things from the Euphrates river drying up to the red heifers,to Russia, Iran, being Gog and Magog… I wish someone would do a debate with a James Kaddis or one of those guys who have been putting all the dots together! I appreciate y’all’s ministry, and it has blessed me immensely!
Not suddenly, no. But much more Christianly than the pagan cultures that preceded them. Baby steps. That was a first try at Christendom; there were plenty of flaws to point at. That does not mean we should abandon the goal.
@@kaylar3197 The truth is, adding Christianity to the culture made it better, it did not come even remotely close to fixing even one society. We are a light in the darkness. IN THE DARKNESS.
I said nothing about elections. I’m talking about a great mountain that fills the whole earth. I’m talking about Jesus getting what he came for, what Satan offered Him a shortcut to, namely, all the kingdoms of the earth. I’m talking about Jesus’ church prevailing against the tottering gates of hell to accomplish the great commission. I’m talking about the knowledge of the Lord covering the earth as the waters cover the sea.
@@ApologiaStudios cards on the table: i have a bahnsen U account, i've been listening to you guys, doug, etc., and i have no horse in the race except to know the truth and have my mind renewed. that said, after umpteen hours of research and reading, i can safely say i'm now neither pre- or post-. what am i? confused. still searching. but to say stuff like "dispensationalism" is new. well, the word certainly is. but who cares? there are dinosaurs mentioned in Job - just because the word is new they don't count? help a brother out and explain to me how it's new, or how it's different. i've listened to all* you guys' content on this topic and, honestly no offense, you say the same stuff over and over and there are leaps of logic. once i figure this all out for myself, i'm never* going to leave someone hanging again. i'm going to answer every question they have, as far as it's possible i'm genuinely seeking and it's frustrating hearing the same old strawmen. and to be sure, it's more frustrating because i know you guys are genuine too and i love everybody there HELP
I wonder what Durbin's response would be to the Great Commission did not mean that every single person would be saved or the world would only have Christians on it before Jesus will return. Evidence is the passage when Jesus says that the way to heaven is narrow and few find it while the pathway to destruction is wide and many go down that path. If only a few find the narrow path then how could the whole world eventually be Christians?
Have you heard of limited atonment. It would be more correct to said definite atonment. There is a certain number of chosen people which was elected before the foundation who Christ died for, and when all of those people are saved which at the end of times will be the majority, then Christ shall complete his reign in this earth. At least that's how I understand it, if someone can correct me, please do. Blessings ya'll.
See I can see where this can be true, like with pre people kind of always referencing the rapture (to me it’s kinda like throwing in the towel like, “welp the world is going to waste anyway I’m just gonna keep doing what I’ve been doing with Jesus”) versus (at least what I’m understanding as) keep making disciples out of people and preaching. My only question to post people is: what about the mark? At least from my SMALL research (aka Google search on “do postmillennials believe in the mark of the beast”) where is the answer to that, because to me that sound like something bad that’s gonna happen (especially from my research on the UN and all that crap about a “one world order”) I would loved to be informed about this as I think having a conversation helps to give understanding, so if anyone is able to clear this up thanks 🙏🏼
If he is saying that theonomy doesn’t provide answers for transforming culture, he by necessity and logic must provide one. Simple saying until the new heavens come is not an answer. It fails. Christians need a standard and we have that in the LAW.
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What is Jeff drinking all the time? And I do plan on signing up for a subscription.
I would define premillenials and amillennials both as escapist worldviews. If the end is just right around the corner, what is the point of engaging the culture and taking dominion? Postmillenials believe that God is transforming the world through the power of the Holy Spirit in his saints. We engage and think far down stream. We believe that Christ is ruling and reigning now.
Response starts at 35:07
MVP
Save even more of your valuable time and start at 46:11.
Mvp
thanks
Thanks
I’ve watched your videos and I have to say, I’m drawn to this church, To the message that God gives you to share. I had a recent awakening with Jesus and I can’t ignore it, after running from him my whole life. I’m from michigan but I’m praying and talking to my wife about visiting your church. I’ve never heard a pastor give it straight like you do. I respect gods gift in you to connect with people and to communicate gods word without regard for how the enemy views it. I’m a disabled veteran looking for a church to devote my time to. I have nothing but time. I hope to visit soon. God bless you
I bet you have much more to offer than time, brother. And thank you for serving our country.
Where at in MI?
@@NiRaSis Ann Arbor area
@@JASPERKNOWSNOTHING Brother, I would strongly encourage you to look for a CREC church in your area before considering moving all the way to Arizona. You can probably do greater faith work in a local church in your area than picking up and moving
Look around you may be surprised, there are kingdom churches in many places, I am in southern Ontario Canada, I know of two churches that preach kingdom
Ive learned so much more biblically sound doctrine in the few videos that ive watched of jeff than i have dozens of other pastors.
Love the gracious interaction.
Most obvious issue is that at multiple points Pastor Emilio is talking about what the unregenerate will do with the Law of God but Pastor Jeff responds with what the regenerate will do with the Law.
They aren’t really addressing the arguments as stated.
I thought that too, I agree that Jeff seemed to address points that were not made by Emilio, and I was about to write a huge post, but eventually Jeff finally implied that Emilio’s argument was a straw man because theonomists don’t think they can transform dead sinners with the law of God in civil government, he just took a really long time to finally clarify that. Check out starting at 1:05:36, particularly 1:06:32
@@therockstar17exactly…… Pastor Jeff takes time to set context for everything he teaches which is why I actually understand him. Lol 😂 He uses the local church to argue the Gospels’ effect on the world.
Because he's a lying deceiver
@@kingjames5527who?
The Patriot was definitely one of my favorite movies growing up. God bless you guys and your ministry
New to Postmillennialism and theonomy in the last 6 months I agree that He Shall Have Dominion and Paradise Restored are both excellent reads and highly recommended
Chilton’s Days of Vengeance is also good; beautifully written..
That was a beautiful, thorough, powerful, thoughtful refutation of a “refutation”. Thank you Apologia for handling this in a Christ honoring fashion! ❤
38:48 That's pretty much how I was brought up. Until about 8 years ago, I thought I was a fairly well-read Protestant--then I started attending a Reformed church, and quickly learned that there was so much I didn't know I didn't know. Even if you don't agree with postmil/amil, it's obvious that there are serious, conservative, Bible-believing Christians who do.
@Dan Brown, throughout more recent church history postmil has surges and then fades, like many false doctrines do, they are cyclical based on the times. For example, postmil faded away when world wars came about. No early church fathers were postmil or amil and some were discipled directly by the apostles. Research the issue thoroughly, look at how postmil proponents frequently isolate and take fragments of their letters (church fathers)way out of context to fit their theology. Let no one deceive you by any means & God bless.
Paradise Restored did the same thing to me. I ended up reading the whole book to my friend and we were both so hyped and breaking out into laughing fits together. Probably my favorite book outside of scripture. I actually have a copy I got from ebay that turned out to be signed by David Chilton.
I've always enjoyed Wilson's remark about a 1st century believer having the wisdom to understand the number of the beast and saying, "Who's Henry Kisinger?"
If Revelation was mainly written to address future events and was not for the generation that lived at that time... Then Revelation would be irrelevant for about 95, and counting, of the 100 generations that have lived and died since it was written. Even though eschatology is not salvific, your eschatology will inevitably effect your walk as a believer. It is the difference between the escapist and the engager. Ultimately a faith issue.
How is it irrelevant if the message of looking to the future events is a message of hope and Christ’s rapture of the church and millennial reign? The book is about hope and is relevant to Christians today as a premill
@@Mynameisjoof Sorry brother, if Revelation is for the future it is always the begging of the end for every generation who reads it. Hope you will consider that Christ is ruling now. Life is so much more rewarding when you plant trees for 5 hundred years for now. Doesn't really matter, we'll all have perfect eschatology some day.
What eschatology is?
@@bayardblack4930 Can you please explain exactly what you mean by, "The begging of the end for every generation who reads it"?
@@geekubs2778 Yes... Basically every generation is thinking the end of the world is right around the corner. This is common among many evangelical Churches in the United States.
Been a reformed Baptist for 20 yrs believing in credo baptism as generally taught by our leaders till a friend told me he converted to paedo baptism after doing thorough search of the word along with Uncle Dougie's book on, To a 1000 generations, on the issue. Just as my search in the word led me to fully embrace being a postmiller, so my search led me to embrace paedo baptism as being scriptural and glorious in baptizing our babies in to the covenant. And I am 77 yrs old. Study the word, read what ones like Doug and others write, let the word speak to you as it did to this old timer and convinced me that it's glorious to baptize infants. Another happy convert first to postmil then to paedo baptism.
I’m down this path right now! I’m in between reformed baptist and Presbyterian.
Amen!
Same thing happened to me brother, and the Lord used the same book (To A Thousand Generations). I decided to give a listen just to understand what the Presbyterian view was all about and before you know it I was convinced haha.
Just some friendly push back from a Baptist brother who also has thought long and hard about pedobaptism: The issue for me is how the NC pulls away from a genetic continuity towards a purer understanding of the church as one not based upon family heritage (all honor to it and it’s place) but to the work of the Spirit in regeneration. So Jesus tells his old covenant interlocutors that being a physical child of Abraham is not enough (even in the old covenant!). John baptized persons who were repentant. Jesus baptized with water and the Spirit. The point of baptism was to move away from assumed cultural continuity and toward inward heart conversion. This conversion then feeds into a true communal expression of the church, where none shall say know the Lord (that is “be saved,” for all shall rightly know him in a presumptive way in this community).
I think you will find that pedopaptists are forced to confront this heart reality in the end by expressly or tacitly removing unbelieving children from the Church, it’s just that in such a case we have given away baptism to those that gave no evidence of its appropriateness. Now, Credo baptists need to be careful about pressuring children, pastors should help with discernment without holding back the right from those that believe.
In the end, Christ’s promises are to the thousandth generation, but it is by the Spirit in the inner man and not outward baptism (which is a conscious appeal to God by the apprised for a clean conscience) per se that this is accomplished. And that is how credo baptism is supposed to hold our feet to the fire.
Amen brother!! Me too. But I'm 35. Covenant theology is glorious and runs through the entire corpus of scripture. It's a gospel motif!
Really good discussion of the NYT article and recognizing the paradigm of the writer and intended audience. To a world where freedom means absolute liberation, Apologia is probably going to “look” restrictive and strange. Hopefully the author heard the word of God.
2:52 music starts
4:18 Talking starts
Why would it even matter what time it is?
I agree that the Great Commission will cause many to become more righteous but we also see in Scripture to the two harvests - one righteous and one evil. We see two cities in Revelation - Jerusalem and Babylon. Good and evil will continue to grow up together (just like the parable) until Jesus returns.
But light will always swallow up the darkness and continue to all is reconciled to Christ, his kingdom come on the earth as it is in heaven, much work to do and much rewards.
It already happened!
@@rontherrien7392 What about Matthew 7:13-14? The postmil view would seem to have those flipped. If all will be reconciled to Christ, then broad is the way that leads to life and narrow is way to destruction.
@@MrSmeagolKitty This is one of those passages where context really matters. The maxim "context is king" is spot on. Who was Matthew primarily written to? It was the J-ws of Jesus day, to His faithful disciples (excepting Judas Iscariot). Chapter 7, vss. 13-14, I believe was about those Jews who would ultimately reject Jesus. It would be "few" among the J-ws that would "find it" speaking of eternal life. It's like where in another place it says how hard is it for a rich man to enter into heaven. Certainly it's true for the majority, but not for God's elect, even if they are rich it is entirely possible, even absolute.
And since the gates of hell will not prevail, the church on offense, will prevail. Neutrality is a myth, and we shouldn't allow for unjust laws, period. Liberty isn't for licentious behavior, which are slaves to sin...It's an oxymoron.
There is only one kingdom. Our High King Jesus took over, until every enemy is put under His feet. The other kingdom lost. Now we skirmish. Even evil itself puts itself out twice as fast, for e.g. homosexuality, abortion, drugs, stupidity, etc.
Starts at 4:18
Starts at 0:00
If all of the puritans were post-millenial it is a great curiosity that this doctrine cannot be found in the Westminster Confession of Faith.
The puritan post mill is not the same as the modern post mill being discussed here. See Iain Murray's a puritan hope for puritan version.
The confession is meant to set the boundaries of orthodox, not spell out a specific narrowly defined view. It was also written in a time before amil set out to distinguish itself from postmil, so both would just be under the postmil banner back then. As I understand, some of the Westminster divines were premil, and most would fall into either what we would call postmil or amil today. They didn't see those differences as something worth dividing over, though chapter 33 clearly is incompatible with versions of premil that teach multiple ressurections and days of judgement.
What I don't see is anything in the confession that speaks against postmil. If the puritans were post-mil, they didn't think disagreement on that issue rose to the level of heterodoxy, and if they weren't, they didn't think postmil was a serious error worth dividing over or unbecoming of ministers in the church.
Great video! Very interesting points.
It’s striking that those who oppose theonomy (like Emilio here) make these arguments while enjoying the benefits of the remnants of Christendom. How quickly we forget the difference in living in the US (still today) vs living in the Sudan. And why is there a difference?
The Power of GOD n HIS Glorious Grace In CHRIST.
Amen J
It’s also ironic that those premills who say they oppose theonomy don’t realize that they actually DO believe in theonomy when Christ reigns and rules during the millennium. They just believe, incorrectly, that we’re still waiting for the millennium where postmills believe we are currently living in the millennium.
@@duck-fil-a3606 what’s truly ironic is when postmil’s believe we are living in Christ’s millennial kingdom when much of the world is at war. It’s interesting how postmil raises and fades away during world wars and how almost none of the early church fathers were postmil/amil as they were all historical premil. But what’s most ironic is how true Christians worship a crucified Messiah yet the postmil/preterists get super excited and emotionally charged when they feel like they are learning and being taught by a man displaying perceived boldness & manliness and who wants to take on and transform the world in a civilian manner. Crucified messiah or warrior? Truth is Christ is both, but He is only a warrior when He returns to take vengeance Himself, Christians do NOT seek vengeance ourselves and defeat all evil, Christ does this WHEN He returns. Scripture couldn’t be more clear. Please make sure you aren’t part of the establishment of the coming anti-christ kingdom, that would cost you dearly.
As a Christian, you darn well better seek God’s will and be able to discern when you are in God’s kingdom or not.
@@matts.6558 so do you not believe Jesus is right now seated at the right hand of the Father ruling and reigning over his Kingdom?
@@matts.6558 Do you not believe Jesus when He said in Matthew 24:34 that this generation will not pass away until all these things take place? Or when He said in Matthew 10:23 you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.
Antichrist is only mentioned in the Bible as someone who says Jesus didn’t come in the flesh. Any other reference to an “Antichrist” character is a premill eisegetical novelty.
I’m sorry my friend, but Jesus is king of kings and lord of lords NOW. And He will continue to reign until he makes all his enemies a footstool for his feet 1 Corinthians 15:25-26
I would LOVE to find a church like this.
If you can't find one, consider planting one.
@@JustinHonaker I've thought about that kind of thing, but unfortunately I'm fresh out of church seeds lol but seriously, i don't have the resources OR the skills necessary to do that.
Great idea tho!
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ean.link/bahnsenu
Hey Apologia I love all you guys and I love Pastor Emilio. What is the story behind your Apologia symbol? The triangle icon. Why not a Cross? Just curious thanks and God bless
Paul assumes in Ephesians that kids are in the congregation and says children obey your parents in the Lord. Paul assumes that children of believers are in the congregation, that they are a part of the congregation. Isn’t Paul assuming that children of believers are also believers?
I love you, Pastor Jeff.
I was taught, similarly to what Jeff professed, that essential Christian Theology is where we stand in our faith and that we must be careful regarding those beliefs not central to our faith to not separate us as brothers and sisters. That said, I think that it is nearly impossible to separate Eschatology as one of those. What you believe, at the foot of the cross about our Lord Jesus, will directly instruct your view of His promise about his return, and what we ought to be doing until then.
Regenerated Cosmos
Hebrews 1: 10And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
11They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
12And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.
Great episode fam
Theonomy is just a matter of recognizing that God has called all men to repentance including Kings. How in light of Rom 13:4 must a ruler repent? He must repent of looking to anything or anyone else(including the popular opinion of the people) then God whose servant he is to be for the ultimate instruction on how he is to rule. He is to repent of not being an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil. He is to repent of having and enforcing laws which brings wrath on the one who practices good.
When I became postmil, I had to say; how could I say such a thing to such a King.
What I mean by that is; how could I have said to the King of kings and Lord of lords “yeh you’re King, but things don’t look so good, and I just see things getting worse”. How could I have said such a disrespectful to such a mighty and worthy King who has all authority in heaven and on earth.
And I felt the weight of the words “Luke 24:25 (ASV): And he said unto them, O foolish men, and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken!”
Kingdom is grows . Who says this world is ruled by Satan , dispensation premillennialism or A millennium , they are not truly worshiping Lord Jesus !
Dispensation theology is made by Jews .
Zionist .
Yes 🙌🏻
Jesus literally said that it will be as in the days of Noah before He returns. Which means the world will be so bad that evil with be unrestrained, which is why the judgment of the world happens then
@@AustinGonder ... That's a good point, but isn't that counter to postmil? Jeff seems to say things are getting better "until all of God's enemies are as a footstool," but you're saying that the world is heading toward unrestrained evil, as in the day of Noah, then He comes. Are you not postmil like Jeff. I'm just learning this stuff.
@@AustinGonder But what was the point of Jesus comparing the day of his return to the days of Noah? Did he make reference to the sinfulness of the people?
Matthew 24: 36ff - But concerning that day and hour *no one knows,* not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only. For as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. For as in those days before the flood *they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage,* until the day when Noah entered the ark, and *they were unaware* until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.
Is "eating" and "drinking" and "marrying" and "giving in marriage" a description of sinful activity? Not at all. Rather, the point seem to be that the people were living their lives normally, doing everyday activities, even looking to the future by starting new families, and nothing about that particular day stood out as being extraordinary until the sudden flood.
Jesus seems to be making the point that the day of his return will look like any other day. He makes no mention of how fallen the world will be at that time. And it's hard to imagine Jesus (and Matthew) being so inconstant that he both taught that the church would be so successful that it would lay siege to the gates of hell and the gates would not withstand the assault (16: 17ff), and yet at the same time in this verse the church will be the one who is unable to defend itself against the sin of the world and Jesus led the church to failed in its mission. Did Jesus change his mind? Did Matthew make a mistake? Or is perhaps this verse being misunderstood.
See when the rubber meets the road, a bad theology on eschatology reveals a lot of unbelief. Thank you brothers for all the work you are doing. The good works God prepared for you to walk in!
The section on theonomy is quite good though.
Brother Bear, "...and the SBC apparently"! lol -Turned Over
Read 1 Corinthians 6:1-11.
This is a devastating blow to the modern day Church that thinks Christians ought not judge anyone. In fact, the Bible says the exact opposite; Christians ought to judge in all matters pertaining to this life on earth, and are the only ones fit to do so, by presupposing, that;
1) God is the lawgiver and judge-Isaiah 33:22; 2 Corinthians 5:1-12.
2) God sets His law as the standard for justice and righteousness-Isaiah 28:5-29.
3) God’s law concerning all things is right, every other way is false-Psalm 119:124-128.
4) God’s law is liberty-Psalm 119:45; James 1:22-25.
5) God’s law is perfect-Psalm 19:7-11; James 1:22-25.
6) God’s law is to be respected-Psalm 119:6-7.
7) God’s law is truth-Nehemiah 9:13-14; Psalm 19:7-11, 119:142, 119:151, 119:160; Galatians 5:7-8; Revelation 16:5-7.
8) God’s law as the apple of our eyes-Proverbs 7:1-4.
Hallelujah Born Again Pilipinas or Philippines Spiritual revival is coming so very, very near in my nation Philippines in Jesus Christ Holy, Mighty, Great and Powerful name I pray Amen.
We must read literature on each other’s different beliefs on secondary issues!!! Let’s get to know each other, half the time we believe the same things but we don’t know the context, or know why we believe what we do. We seek to prove our stance with the Bible, rather than building our stance based on what the Bible says, by the way, I’m post mill since last year, thanks apologia lol
I see pastor Emilio's point in churches, because they are sitting on that view, do not go out there and share the gospel because it's time to go!!
They will be judge according to their seeds and so will the Christians according to their un-deeds
Where can I get your usher’s t-shirt? I must acquire… 31:55
Crosspolitic
I think the point you made in the beginning was good…eschatological teachings and beliefs should not lead to breaking fellowship. Sadly, when we dive into detail and perspectives, it does in some cases. The battle is already won-let us always remember that. I want to interject my opinion. I know Apologia takes Matthew 28 as their foundation for discipling nations and post millennialism. I neither agree with pre or post. I would lean more towards amillennialism which I could go into detail at a later date. Matthew 28 says to make disciples of all nations. This does not assume making all nations disciples. Why? Because scripture speaks about a constant conflict between the church and the world. We will be hated because of the name of Christ we bear. We are called to bring individuals, to Christ. The majority will not be saved. Matthew 7 reminds us that MANY will claim to know Christ, but He will not know them. The gate is narrow and we should “agonize” to enter through it. Theonomy and theocracy is true…if people followed God’s decrees and standards life would be better and “golden”. Sadly, the world does not seek those things. This world is blind by the god of this world. This world loves evil and will until Christ returns. When Christ comes back it’s a wrap! Every eye will see Him and judgement begins with the church. (No secret rapture) Christ establishes the Kingdom and New Earth, not the church. The Bible is explicit in numerous texts that the world will get worse, but our hope and joy lie in Christ and His return. When Christianity is looked at as a societal structure, it breeds complacency in those who are part of it because the assumption is if you are part of the group, you don’t need to be evangelized because you are already “saved” by association. Kind of like what this nation has already done. I could go more into this but remember, we live in a world where people know right from wrong, they just love wrong because they are sinners and enemies of God. Urgency should be in the church to preach and live the Gospel because many will face judgement and live in an eternal hell. You’re not changing culture, that’s not our calling in scriptures. Make disciples of all nations-meaning individuals from every tribe and group and society! Not ALL individuals…but have that kind of zeal! Sow seeds, pray for the ground it lands on that it grabs hold. Christ reminds us that there is a 1 out of 4 chance it actually takes root and grows fruit.
I actually agree with this. I was listening to Wilson the other day and your point about making disciples of all nations does not imply that all nations (sociological - I probably applied that word incorrectly but you will get my meaning) will come to know Christ. All nations is in reference to people groups whom the Lord will save across all societal boundaries (someone help me with a better definition), Wilson suggested otherwise in his podcast. I cannot at all agree with that perspective. Not a bit. But who am I? I'm not nearly as knowledgeable as Jeff and Doug. Not even close. But I am having a renewed perspective that is reorienting my faith in the person and Hope we have in Christ - not in a hope that political nations are going to be Christianized. Maybe, but I don't see this focus for Christians to have in the pages of Scripture. Don't get me wrong. We need to know how to present the Gospel in the current state of affairs we find ourselves in and in so doing we will be effective in the defense of the Gospel (This is Schaefferian presuppositional apologetics). But this is why our moral document in the Constitution is systematically undermined. The World hates the Gospel and the Hope we have. It will seek to be accountable to no one and embrace evil and licentiousness and therefore it can only start at the grassroot level - individuals one at a time with our family being the most basic in raising children to fear God. This spreads out from there into a positive change in society. So God calls individuals to implement godly laws but the godless will resist - always until Christ renews all things.
I’d look into partial preterism & PostMill some more…I was cringing at a lot of your comments 😬. Satan is not the “god of this world.” He had much more free reign in the OT but when Christ came to earth he bound the strong man and Satan is on a chain & unable to deceive the nations as the gospel goes forth.
Christ is King. He’s ruling & reigning NOW.
@@SerenityNow22 this is absolutely NOT true. What Christ did was preserve for himself a people that would live victoriously by faith, through Christ's victory over sin and death and resist the devil. Satan is far from being bound. I don't know where on earth you can make such a statement that the Bible states that. Where is this idea found in scripture? The only part I can agree with you on is the fact that Christ is sitting on the throne ruling the nations with an iron fist. Judgement is a means of demonstrating he rules and not man and we are under judgment now. But he has preserved a remnant for himself that will serve him in heart and not just give lip service like the Gospel Coalition. The nations are clearly tools of Satan and he is on no chain but the Lord allows him free reign - even to persecute His people, to refine them as thru fire that they might come out as Gold even as they perish from the face of the earth.
So would PostMill be partial preterists?
Yessir
Not exclusively, but mostly.
A clear misunderstanding of what Emilio means.
I thought I was the only one who noticed this…completely misrepresented Emilio.
Reading the NY times article now. Kinda wondering why she refers to Jeff as "Mr." Durbin. If she covered any other pastor, wouldn't she refer to them as "Pastor [Durbin]?" I appreciate Jeff praising her fairness, but it feels like a not-so-subtle dig.
I theorize it is because she views him with more of a respect as a legitimate threat.
In her world 'Mr' is better regarded than 'Pastor' and certainly in terms of making somebody out to be dangerous.
Just my take.
How did she know he wasn’t a ‘ms’?
@@robertknight3354 I think BECAUSE she views him as a legitimate threat, she uses "Mr." to divorce him from his congregational authority. Imagine writing an article about MLK and making reference to "Mr. King" as opposed to "Reverend King." It's a way of de-emphasizing the authority Pastor Durbin enjoys as the leader of a growing movement.
The post millennium theory will win again. Because it is the truth of God and the truth of the Word written by God. The Post millennium theory inspires and encourages people's hearts, fills them with the power of God, and puts them the flag of Christ's victory in every territory, like those ancient great saints and the old Puritans, and casts all thoughts and activities. It's an eschatology that turns it into a victory soldier
The Yerba you get in the yellow can is very high in sugar. It would be good if you brewed it yourself and drank it out of a gourd with a bombila.....much stronger and more healthy
ive been working out extra hard lately and my stomach still isnt flat. i just realized yesterday that it was the Yerb's haha. i cut them out as of just today lol 😭
Us pre-mills don’t believe this world will be destroyed and create a new one. We believe God will restore this earth new and be made perfect again. Easy to see the post trib pre-mill view without adding or taking away from scripture if we properly exegesis the scripture.
@Jason Jones
When I was premil I was taught ( and this was the popular view among Pentecostals and charismatics) that the world as if is was going to be burned up 2 Peter 3:10 and the new Heaven and Earth was going to come down along with the New Jerusalem Revelation 21:1-3. And this seemed and still seems to be the universal teaching with premillennialist today.
@@graylad My generation don’t believe in a “secret” rapture or that God is going to destroy this earth and create a new one. That pre-trib view is fading away. Post trib and Post mill believe the same besides when the tribulation takes place. Post trib views believe God’s kingdom is here and Christ is reigning on the throne. We are all waiting for the second coming.
Anyway pre -trib or mid - trib or post - trib , all those pre millennium view are wrong concept , and it’s not biblical view .
@@andrewgd1858 It’s in the Bible bro. Christ second coming all came?
@@uno23437 Christ second coming is not yet but rapture and tribulations are already happened in the 1st century .
Can you guys start a discussion about the Baha'i faith? I've been seeing them a lot here lately.
Cultish has recently
Please activate the live chat on this video so I can see the comments please
Granted that all law is morality and that a society’s God is reflected in its highest source of law. The question is does Christ’s law recognize or assume constitutional popular sovereignty over one party rule? I think we would say that it does. I think most here would agree.
The question of oppressive law has two sides, there is the objective side, what God wills, but then there is the application/subjective side, can it be implemented for us as we are. That is, what sort of sanctification is required for us as a society before we stop resisting the will of God as good. And given human sinfulness, even for Christians, what is the right amount of legal restriction versus private enforcement and judgment. These are the deep issues. Pastor Emilio is assuming certain sinful reactions against righteous standards, but there will always be some such reaction. The question is what is the righteous standard (both ideally, to be worked toward, and practically, can be implemented now) for us who live between the comings of Jesus.
[I’ll keep the screen shot since I do believe my first attempt to post was taken down, but here’s what I’ll say for now]:
I will take the engaged Pilgrim's gospel, not the reconstructionist/theonomist/postmillennial gospel. Hebrews 11.13-16. Also, probably 95% (or more) of the world's population is unregenerate consisting of Islam/Hinduism/Bhuddism (not to mention Catholicism, pseudo-Christian cults, animism, secularism, atheism etc). We are in the "present evil age" - it has always been dark. Consequently, Van Til would direct you to Vos, Bavinck, and the Reformed Confessions (all futurist/Amillennialism). The second Helvetic Confession refers to "postmill" eschatology as "Jewish Dreams" because of its geo-physical understanding of the kingdom which results in a "third age" which is sub-eschatological and a “third” category simply not taught by Jesus and the apostles (they had a two-age structure- NOTE: all "realized eschatology" is redemptive via our union with Christ and not increasing but only awaits the consummation). As Vos put it "The chief end for which Israel had been created was not to teach the world lessons in political economy, but in the midst of a world of paganism to teach true religion, even at the sacrifice of much secular propaganda and advantage. (Biblical Theology: Old and New Testaments (Eugene, OR: Wipf & Stock Publishers, 2003), 125. It is not the kingdom of God via political-rationalism that is emerging, but the kingdom of antichrist via a Oneist world system under a great delusion which only Christ will destroy at His glorious coming (2 Th. 2.4-12). Stay faithful, His "reward' comes with Him!
The great commission is lived out in the epistles and we see that our execution of the great commission has nothing to do with reconstructionism, and all about enveloping God’s elect into the communion of saints in the Church by presenting each man mature in Christ!
It is true, in my mind and limited understanding, that when God does a work of transformation (healing) in our lives Jesus instructs them to "go tell". I'm also thinking about the teachers of the law telling Peter and John to "stop teaching in this name" and their response was, "...we cannot help but...". If all Christians behaved in exactly the same, the world would again be turned upside down right? Well as it was a work of God at that time it is also the work of God in our time that his church is renewed and judged - which in turn renews society. The law of God implanted, produces fruit in society. Teachers like Jeff, James, Doug, AD, Jon, Allie and Peters and Webben as well as many others are required by God to act as a Christians by warning them, as the scriptures do, for the church to wake up from their slumber and do what is right. Those who have ears to hear heed their call and those who don't will strain out a knat. Therefore it is always about reconstruction and renewal. We are salt and therefore salt must be salty and God brings judgement to the church first if it does not do what the Lord has commanded - he raises up 5000 "who have not bowed the knee to Baal" which is proof that God is in control and knows what he is about. Too much more to say, but others can say it far better than I and Jeff did it quite well I think.
@Emilio Ramos,
What is τὸ εὐαγγέλιον τῆς βασιλείας --- the Gospel of the kingdom, in Matthew 4:23? How is the kingdom described throughout the Gospels? You said a lot here, but a lot of it can be agreed from a postmil perspective, other than your presuppositions of amillennialism. By the way, I would caution calling all the OT prophecies about the coming kingdom (that did come) and the peace along with it as "Jewish dreams." They're not "dreams." They are realities that God Himself EXPRESSLY says He will accomplish through His bride.
@@joeadrian2860 It is about reconstruction and renewal, of the heart and mind of the new believer, who dies to desires of the flesh and surrenders their will to the Lord's will. In doing so, the old man is put to death and the new man is being formed "reconstructed". But to leave the clear teachings and examples of Jesus and Apostles in the New Testament on how they carried out their faith and great commission, through spiritual means (purely the gospel and discipleship) and not carnal means (political & societal reconstruction, etc.), by departing from the clear examples of scripture and twisting biblical terminology meant for each believer in Christ, to now have a more worldly and carnal meaning is very concerning. But honestly, what is even more concerning is how one professing faith in Christ cannot discern God's will and identify Christ's kingdom and whether or not it is here now or is yet to come based on the scriptures.
@@matts.6558 Matt, I think I have a problem with your wish to separate and therefore compartmentalize the two "spheres". I'm thinking of, right now, James' admonition to "show me your faith by what you do" (my paraphrase) and this clearly deconstructs (to continue to use such terminology) the idea of one's "spiritual" world not overlapping into the "carnal" as you choose to use it. Our Christianity necessitates forays clearly into the world in which we live and seeks to impact it for Christ. I do not think that this is at all a stretch of the meaning of Scripture. As Jeff and others like to use the phrase "All of Christ for All of Life" seems quite appropriate. But perhaps I am misunderstanding and misrepresenting what you are saying to me Matt. If I am then accept my apology.
@@joeadrian2860 Thanks for your response. No, that's not exactly what I was saying but your objection is a common one when the topic is brought up. A "new creation" or born again believer will of course have some level of impact on the surrounding world.....light in darkness....salt....although impacting the world in a societal or political sense was not at all the context of James' demand of a display of faith (be careful not to add to the text to change context)...moreover, to confuse God's will from being a RESCUE mission (hence the word salvation - to save or salvage something) simply accomplished through the preaching of the gospel and discipleship, into a CHANGE mission (political, societal, governmental, etc.) and building a kingdom here on earth in the physical before Christ returns is to misunderstand the scriptures and the will of God. We wrestle not against flesh and blood, are weapons of warfare are not carnal, and if you haven't noticed the Armor of God in Ephesians is mostly defensive in nature, our only offence is the sword of the Spirit, the Word of God. Hopefully this helps clarify, but at the end of the day my question/point remains, we have the scriptures which clearly provide examples of how Jesus and the Apostles lived and how they carried out God's will preaching the Gospel and discipleship. Nowhere in scripture do we see them setting up any kind of kingdom here on earth through societal change, political means, etc. Peter referred to Christians as sojourners for a reason, because this isn't our home or His kingdom (yet). Do not be deceived brother.
If you have scriptures from the New Testament clearly charging Christians with the reconstruction of the earth's systems into obedience under God and His law, please show me? To be clear, I am already aware of the prophecies about Christ's kingdom and rule and what it will look like, I am requesting NT guidance from Jesus and the Apostles on doing this in the here and now?
Book recommendations start at 1:29.50
“Christians have got to be better thinkers.” 👏👏👏
Are there any other religions that used to sacrifice animals that no longer do? If so, what reason do they give if they dont believe Jesus was the final sacrifice?
I think many people would really enjoy a friendly conversation or debate between pastor Durbin and pastor white vs pastor MacArthur and another pastor that hold pre trib view. I think it would really bless many to see how they would defend their points and refute other points.
I have always struggled with this part of the Bible i see valid points on both sides.
Smashed that Pastor Jeff
My biggest thing with the postmill and Amill camp is this, how is Satan bound? You have to tussle with what Peter clearly says in the text, the adversary lurks around like a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour. Satan is not yet bound, if this is the kingdom then Satan is bound. We clearly see that he's operating in this world and with fierce destruction.
@Jonathan Thomas I love this breakdown and it is very edifying, especially since I've been on the fence for a while with my eschatological view. I don't see a pretrib rapture, but I am historical premill, I wrestle a lot with text like Peter's and when you hear verses that call Satan the prince of the power of the air. And when Jesus says that my kingdom is not of this world, and we await the millennial kingdom which comes from above, the new Jerusalem. I totally see how the gospel is reaching places like never before, and I do believe Christ is reigning and God is absolutely sovereign.
I also understand the purpose of how America was founded and the intent behind it, although I think America is actually the beast from revelation 13. But as for myself, I just want to fulfill the great commission until the return of Messiah 🙏🏼
@Jonathan Thomas
Good stuff brother ...
@Jonathan Thomas I found the last chapter of Bahnsen’s “Victory In Jesus: the Bright Hope of Postmillennialism” on the person, work and present status of Satan to be extremely helpful in understanding this topic. Satan is bound currently, but like a rabid dog tied to a post: he can still do some damage, but he is doing so only insofar as Christ is letting him. Luke 11:14-23
@Jonathan Thomas Bahnsen talks about in 1 Peter 5:8, how Satan’s walk is compared to that of a roaring lion, not himself personally. Peter says Satan is not himself a lion but is likening his walk and behavior to that of a roaring lion. Bahnsen then goes on to discuss the OT symbolism of lions and essentially asks the question “why do lions roar?” To instill fear. “In 1 Peter 5:8, we do not see Satan represented in his secret and subtle activities as the adversary of God’s people; we see him as the ferocious threat by persecutors against believers.” I think these are important points to consider and contemplate.
He’s going to be bound during the millennial reign not before. This is why you still see him at work.
“He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.”
Revelation 20:2-3
I oppose theonomy, but am postmil. God must change hearts which provides the means to changing the world. He brings in the Kingdom, not us.
_"God must change hearts which provides the means to changing the world. He brings in the Kingdom, not us."_
I hope you aren't saying that because you think it opposes Theonomy. It doesn't, that is the foundational presupposition the Theonomist has for how a Theonomic society arises. The church is not like the kingdoms of the world. When we march out in battle, our armor is the Holy Spirit and our weapon is the gospel, the double edge sword that proceeds from the mouth of Christ. That is the only sword that will bring people to want to reject what seems right in their own eyes and model their entire lives, including their civil order, after what Christ has commanded.
@@oracleoftroy However you may find this to be the case, Covenant Theology dictates that the premise of theonomy as proposed by many is incorrect. The Civil Laws along with the Ceremonial Laws have passed away as we are under a new dispensation of grace. However, for the purpose of applying the Moral Law the *principles* of the Civil and Ceremonial Laws remain in effect as they are the Moral Law's outworking for the Israelites at that time.
@@savingassent _"The Civil Laws along with the Ceremonial Laws have passed away as we are under a new dispensation of grace."_
That's not true in covenant theology. Covenant Theology, at least historically (so not NCT or the Baptist version), presumes continuity of the covenants. The ceremonial law for example is still with us and is fulfilled in Jesus, which is why we can eat bacon. That's different from those who would say Jesus abolished the ceremonial law, thus making bacon OK. So too there are "sundry judicial laws" given to Israel as expressed in a particular cultural way unique to that time and people, yet the general equity of that law does require obligation for Christians today (per WCF 19.4).
_"However, for the purpose of applying the Moral Law the principles of the Civil and Ceremonial Laws remain in effect as they are the Moral Law's outworking for the Israelites at that time."_
I would go beyond mere principles and point to the general equity of the law. But I'm open to us maybe meaning the same thing.
The world can, has been, and is being changed by laws. Why do you think that here in American, and most of the western world, there is no more racial slavery? Why do you think we have become a murderous nation? The laws do change the way people act. They may not change the hearts of men, but the fear of punishment does cause change.
Sometimes but not always, prohibition was repealed because no one was abiding by it. In the next decade we will see the repeal of a great many drug laws as well as the federal legalization of marijuana because people weren’t obeying those laws. I think as long as the majority either believe in the laws or fear the government sufficiently then yes behavior can be changed by laws. But when that isn’t the case then the laws often get removed. Covid policies were a good example of this. States where people obeyed kept them longer and went stronger. States where people ignored the laws repealed them.
@@TGuard00014 of course. My point is that we can change society, for better or worse, with the laws we put up.
Good to know that according to John Owen I can disregard a literal reading of the Genesis account.
Nope. That's not what he argued about Peter at all. If you read it or were listening to the show you wouldn't have come to that conclusion. That would take effort however.
We believe in the literal account of Genesis.
Perhaps you should come to conclusions more cautiously?
@@ApologiaStudios
2 Peter 3:5-7 ESV
For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens that existed long ago, and the earth that was formed out of water and through water by the word of God, and that by means of these the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished. But by the same word the heavens and earth which now exist are stored up for fire, being kept for the day of judgement and destruction of the ungodly.
Peter is clearly drawing the line from the OT flood destroying the world in judgement to the judgement of this world in fire. If I am to believe that the fire is spiritual cleansing I would need to believe the same thing with the flood of Noah's day. John Owen was a godly man, but this is inconsistent. Within two sentences.
A normal, literal interpretation of Scripture rejects postmillennialism and holds to a normal interpretation of all Scripture, including unfulfilled prophecy. We have hundreds of examples in Scripture of prophecies being fulfilled. Take, for example, the prophecies concerning Christ in the Old Testament. Those prophecies were fulfilled literally. Consider the virgin birth of Christ (Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:23). Consider His death for our sins (Isaiah 53:4-9; 1 Peter 2:24). These prophecies were fulfilled literally, and that is reason enough to assume that God will continue in the future to literally fulfill His Word. Postmillennialism fails in that it interprets Bible prophecy subjectively and holds that the millennial kingdom will be established by the church, not by Christ Himself.
@@johntrevett2944 You are letting the word "normal" carry far too much weight for your argument. What is "normal"? Postmil idea have been around for 2000 years, would that not quality as normal?
I'm not sure what "literally" means in your usage either, as Postmil fulfillment of the church filling the world like yeast in bread or a pebble becoming a mountain seems to fit fairly literally, whereas most other views don't have the kingdom of God actually meeting those prophesies in quite so straightforward a way. In fact, they seem to take "filling the earth" as being all but eliminated from the earth.
And who is the head of the church? Is it not none other than Christ Himself? Anything the church accomplishes it does so because of its head.
It seems to me that if Postmillennialism is true, then the adherents of it are confused or mistaken in their timeline. Based on my study, the golden age of Church influence in the world was the previous 200 years or so, and we're now in the bad end times that this eschatology postulates.
Personally I think the main theme of kingdom come, aside from glory and the triumph of Jesus Christ, will be astonishment at how we all got it so wrong.
2:53 begins the intro.
Wow, that explanation bout the film was slick. Could have just said ya I still got some world in me. I mean, don't we all until we are with Christ Jesus?
Side note, for those of you who don't know.. star wars didn't have the vulgarity through out the film to ANY degree of every other word being the worst vulgar one could muster up, like Quentins film.
I’m confused about what was said starting at 1:06:54 about the Spirit being in believers and how this is what’s new about the new covenant. Believers didn’t have the Holy Spirit in them in the old covenant? Believers didn’t have the law written on their hearts in the old covenant? None of the prophets, Noah, Abraham, David, etc…none of these guys had the Spirit?
interesting point 👉 I think it's not fully because of Jesus dying on thr cross. It is finished completion. I'm trying to expand on thus but I'm not a Pastor and studied theology but I'm trying to learn and I take the finished work on the cross to mean that you can now have the holy spirit because of that.
I have not found much in the way of post millennialism prior to the 1500-1600s. Premillennialism goes back to the early days of the church, as well as amillenialism. Yet, premillennialism is continually claimed as new? Dispensationalism? Yes, it's new. Please be more clear.
From what I can tell, "amillenialism" wasn't distinct from "postmillenialim" until recently, like within the last 100ish years. Before that people just used postmillenialim for all the related ideas. It's a bit anachronistic to claim a person is amil before then. An NGram search shows the first usages of the term in books to be around 1926. Even the term postmil seems relatively new, appearing around 1846. Yet obviously the views go back way further than that. It's not clear to me that the early Christians amil claims as their own shouldn't be seen as postmil, except by a very narrowly defined ahistorical definition.
Hey Pastor Jeff, which NT passage talks about mixed fabrics?
Yes, all of creation is being renewed, not redone. Just like now, believers are a "new creation" but still in our physical bodies. So eventually there will be, in our future, people living again for centuries such that dying at 100 years is considered young. Even the animal kingdom will show the curse being pushed back so that wolf and and lamb will graze together and carnivores turning back to herbivores. However there is still death going on, but the effects of the curse are in retreat.
This is yet to be realized, but is still way off in the future in our present age. Perhaps 1,000s more years ahead.
No, I don't believe we are currently in the "last days" as stated in NT verses. Those verses are talking about the last days of the old covenant age that ended forever when Jerusalem and Temple were destroyed in 70AD.
I believe according to Romans 11 that one day many ethnic Jews around the world will believe in Christ and be grafted back in. The result of that will bring about the changes I described above, as Paul said, "like life from the dead". when they are grafted back in.
This then is fulfilling the foreshadow of the final Israel feast, the Feast of Purim in Esther which occurred when Jews were scattered about the nations, like still today.
"Therefore they called these days Purim, after the term Pur. Therefore, because of all that was written in this letter, and of what they had faced in this matter, and of what had happened to them, the Jews firmly obligated themselves and their offspring and all who joined them, that without fail they would keep these two days according to what was written and at the time appointed every year, that these days should be remembered and kept throughout every generation, in every clan, province, and city, and that these days of Purim should never fall into disuse among the Jews, nor should the commemoration of these days cease among their descendants. Then Queen Esther, the daughter of Abihail, and Mordecai the Jew gave full written authority, confirming this second letter about Purim. Letters were sent to all the Jews, to the 127 provinces of the kingdom of Ahasuerus, in words of peace and truth, that these days of Purim should be observed at their appointed seasons, as Mordecai the Jew and Queen Esther obligated them, and as they had obligated themselves and their offspring, with regard to their fasts and their lamenting. The command of Esther confirmed these practices of Purim, and it was recorded in writing" Esther 9:26-32
FACT: The Calvinist Puritan revolutionaries who fought the War of 1776 would have lost to the English army if not for the Catholics of France who sabotaged the English effort at the end of the conflict... thus giving the colonials their victory. Vive la France! 🙂🙂🙂
“Manny Pack.” Yes. 👍
I love y'all to death brochocho.. but I couldn't get past the seed part. To watch you crash and burn so hard on the movie poster part, I couldn't take much more.. I only after that could see you knowing in your heart that films wrong for you to be watching..
Jeff Durbin, please please do a video...Christian vs. New Age. If one exists can someone please link it for me?
I haven't found it yet. Thank you!
I’m just struggling so hard to understand this point of view. If everyone is going to be converted, where does hell play a part in all of this? Also why wouldn’t everyone just satisfy their fleshly desires knowing that it has no consequences and everyone is going to be saved in the end anyways? I genuinely want to understand what I’m missing here.
Postmillennialism is eschatological heresy and utterly unbiblical
Post-millennialism is another name for Christian Universalism.
Have you heard of limited atonement. There is a certain number of people chosen before the foundation who Christ died for. I prefer "definite atonement" I think is more correct. As I see it, like I said before, there is a certain number of elected people who will be saved, and when all of the elected are saved, which in the end times will be the majority living in that time, then Christ's reign will be complete. And resurrection will take place, the judging of all people, and finally new heaven and new earth for the righteous to live in forever. Thats how I understand it. Peace and blessimgs, brother
Jesus is Lord now pass the ammo… I need that shirt 🤣😆🤣
Funny...... Had a Pastor once say: How many here are perfect? Raise your hand, HE raised his and few others did as well, He said, I have been imputed with Christ righteousness and all my sins are forgiven and when God sees me, HE sees Jesus! Hmm I bet Ananias and Sapphira Acts 5 would disagree with that
@19:45 J.S. Bach, enough said
50:28 Emilio says a lot of “it can never…” but does nothing to substantiate his opinion. Emilio is Amillennial; therefore, it is clear that his Presuppositions are based on a pessimistic eschatology that sees evil as too powerful for the church to have victory over. I think Jeff has mentioned this before, but Jesus in Matthew 16:18 makes it clear that the gates of hades will not be able to prevail against the church. In other words, the church is on the offensive, hades is on the defensive and the church throughout history will bulldoze all that stands in the way of the Kingdom of God and the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
Can someone give me the time stamp for when they talk about post mil ?
Question. Many reformed church's that do not hold to a eschatology of postmil accuse this end time view of idolizing the " Church" and failure to understand the spiritual aspect of Christ's Church. What say you?
John Owen was amazingly wrong on 2 Peter.
“Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.”
1 Corinthians 15:24-25 ESV
I believe Christ is ruling and reigning now and the Gospel is going forth as well. I also believe that the nations will be “Christianized” but to what degree is where we differ. I do not believe that the world will be come predominantly Christian before Christ returns. That is not explicit in Scripture. If Christ is ruling and reigning now could you definitively say no to the fact that Christ hasn’t already put all enemies under his feet? I don’t think from the Scriptures we could say either yes or no. Only God knows. With that being said, the below text from Jesus does say that both the wheat and the tares grow together. Can Christ not come again prior to a “Christianized” world? Who defines what a “Christianized” or “golden age” looks like?
“Let both grow together until the harvest, and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, “Gather the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn.”’””
Matthew 13:30 ESV
I believe almost all the tenants of post mil accept for the christianizing of the world. This is why I remain Amil.
Blessings to you and your awesome ministry!
Regarding the validity of theonomy ala Bahnsen. Totally agree that a Christian view of civil Government will maintain the distinction between church and state. The question of penology (standards of criminal punishment) is a difficult one though. Some penalties are prescribed in the law, but even in cases were there was a death penalty, say for kidnapping, there appear to be a range of penalties based upon mitigating circumstances. Thus even the law recognized a sort of common law flexibility that would adjust to time and circumstance as far as penalties are concerned (adultery is still adultery no matter time or place, though Jesus no longer tolerates polygamy).
Systematically, in my judgement, the difficulty with theonomy is it leans so heavy upon God’s immutability, such that it ignores the way that the Mosaic covenant is not just amended but restated in the New Covenant. When a legal document is restated it can have the same form, but there is no necessity of the continuity of content. Of course with the New Covenant and the Old there is continuity, but it is based upon God’s character and the order he created with the world. But it’s not the OC itself that is authoritative, as it is but a window into being able to discern the local from the universal.
It is a very different conceptual world to say that Paul uses the plowing Ox to gain insight into the moral order of the universe (I.e. Paul is discerning the universally binding will of God by means of a law that he saw as local and temporary), verses that he is looking upon the law as an eternally binding order to which some amendments have been made for sacrifice and circumcision.
Maybe the points of disagreement between Theonomy and New Covenant theology (or progressive covenantal Ian) are not so significant because both use the Mosaic law to triangulate the universally binding moral law, but the way Theonomy attempts to affirm anything in the OT unless explicitly amended in the NT seems to undersell Paul’s “all or nothing approach” to covenant keeping in Galatians 2-3. In the NC it seems that the NT appeals to God’s universal character as the standard for morals, and looks to special revelation by Jesus and the Apostles in the new covenant, natural moral reflection and a wisdom approach to law in the OT to obtain this moral standard. So it is God’s law we strive for, but is God’s law (standards for us) as found in the OT as unchanging as God’s moral character? It would seem not. Does it simply have to be modified? It would seem not, for to take on circumcision is to take on all of the laws obligations. So what does one take on in the New Covenant? We take on the Christ’s royal law which James speaks of. But it is not an OT minus, it’s actually a new covenant. It’s grounded in the old yes, but it is not the old law.
Thoughts? Correctives?
Does the world ever experience perfection again? If so when will it in post-millennial view?
I don't know what you mean by perfection _again_ but assuming you mean a "very good" world where the curse and death of sin is defeated, that is the final enemy that is defeated when Christ finally returns on the last day and we enter the eternal state with glorified bodies. Until then, the gospel has the power to change hearts and minds and even while societies for the better, but sin will still be around as well, even as the church grows and the nations repent and turn to Christ.
@@oracleoftroy thanks for the reply. And yes, that was my intended question. God bless!
Those people pointing out the movies and the bad things in them are not saying that you said that you approve of them. They are saying that you shouldn't have those posters up because of the profanity.
what posters and what profanity?
Revelations 5: 1-5 says Jesus is a man, even while he is in heaven. Hebrews calls Jesus a man, Romans 5:19 says "for by the sin of one man sin entered the world, and by the righteousness of one may all be made righteous".
59:00 to the end
Totally threw Pastor Emilio under the bus to promote his own view. But does say on core values, the same. Which was edifying, so stick to the core values. Are people going to be saved and transformed by arguing points of theology or by loving the lost.
You stand on one side of the street I the other, same location, different perspective.
I’m sure you saw this, but may go back to 35:10 and listen again to Jeff’s explanation of why he addresses this. It is important to have solid biblical teaching on second and third tier issues as well as the core ones. They aren’t irrelevant; what we believe on these things affects how we live. As a Christian trying to live my life according to God’s word; I always appreciate the back and forth between men of God to explain their positions and respond to objections.
I agree, the fact that a doctrine was believed by some one or some group in history does not, by itself, make it true. He doesn’t say so either. No, he doesn’t give a thorough exegesis of the texts here (though he does touch on some), if you would like I’d be happy to point you to other videos that do that.
But that doesn’t seem to be your concern. You say, who cares, just preach the word. I agree in so far as this-no matter our eschatology we should all be sharing the gospel. Very good, have you seen Apologia’s evangelism ministry? I disagree that we should never bother to wrestle with and understand the word better on secondary matters. These are the teachings of God’s word; presumably He gave them to us for a good reason. ALL scripture is profitable for teaching, reproof, correction, and training in righteousness. In praying for God’s kingdom to come, is it of no importance to understand the nature of that kingdom?
Interestingly enough you complain that Jeff & co shouldn’t worry about a brother’s secondary theology, but that is exactly what Pastor Emilio is doing in the clip they are addressing.
@@kaylar3197 true on the impact of how we live why it must be accurate.
My issue with post millennial thought is that I don't see it scripturally. And he states somewhere around the 40 minute mark that you have to go back to the text but yet he goes off on a tangent about standing on some big shoulders....puritans etc.
Proofs needed, as I just don't see it. in scripture.
But what I do see is that regardless of the accuracy of post millennial or otherwise we've got one job we have to do and that is to be honor God the preach the Word so all may hear and and His Kingdom may be ushered in.
Amen! We must stand shoulder to shoulder in that work. As far as I can tell Jeff is doing just that with Pastor Emilio.
If you would like to hear a biblical explanation of the postmillennial perspective, you could search postmil on this channel and look for results that are sermons. ChristKirk is also a great resource for this; here’s an intro to postmil from them: m.th-cam.com/video/Ys6_Th7rvW0/w-d-xo.html
It is a paradigm shift, you won’t see it the first time it’s taught because you have a different structure in your mind. It will throw everything off - until you see it and everything clicks.
Those who hold to postmillennialism believe that this world will become better and better-all evidence to the contrary notwithstanding-with the entire world eventually becoming “Christianized.” After this happens, Christ will return. However, this is not the view of the world in the end times that Scripture presents. From the book of Revelation, it is easy to see that the world will be a terrible place during that future time. Also, in 2 Timothy 3:1-7, Paul describes the last days as “terrible times.”
Those who hold to postmillennialism use a non-literal method of interpreting unfulfilled prophecy, often interpreting prophetic passages allegorically. The problem with this is that when the normal meaning of a passage is abandoned, its meaning can become entirely subjective. All objectivity concerning the meaning of words is lost. When words lose their meaning, communication ceases. However, this is not how God has intended for language and communication to be. God communicates to us through His written word, with objective meanings to words, so that ideas and thoughts can be communicated.
A normal, literal interpretation of Scripture rejects postmillennialism and holds to a normal interpretation of all Scripture, including unfulfilled prophecy. We have hundreds of examples in Scripture of prophecies being fulfilled. Take, for example, the prophecies concerning Christ in the Old Testament. Those prophecies were fulfilled literally. Consider the virgin birth of Christ (Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:23). Consider His death for our sins (Isaiah 53:4-9; 1 Peter 2:24). These prophecies were fulfilled literally, and that is reason enough to assume that God will continue in the future to literally fulfill His Word. Postmillennialism fails in that it interprets Bible prophecy subjectively and holds that the millennial kingdom will be established by the church, not by Christ Himself.
This was a great episode. Except the false claim that covenantal inclusion of children and participation in the sacraments is wrong.
Scripture ?
I had to stop this and google The Hateful Eight. I will be watching this. Thanks
In the PM view, was the Great Commission fulfilled by 70AD at the end of the Jewish age?
No
No
Not completely. But only that the gospel would be preached throughout the whole Roman empire by 70AD, and it was. The term "world" in Matthew 24 does not refer to the entire globe, but the inhabited region of that day.
@@matthewmidea4754 Why not?
@@Alexander-iy1rt Why not?
The world is not getting better and better as post mils beleive.
a manny pack!! 😂😂
He really should have read the book of Daniel for those 30 days then approached the book of Revelation. Also the bible itself and the apostles all believed that Jesus could return at any time. They lived that way as well.
Right, that proved Postmill. Every generation believes he is "coming soon" but he hasn't yet. So what do we do in the meantime? We make disciples of the nations. Like Postmill says
I agree with everything theologically. As far as eschatology goes, I’m still up in the air. I want to be a post millennialist, but I have yet to hear any post mill folks address all of the things that are happening right in front of our eyes that match up perfectly with Revelation.. we’ve literally got a one world government forming right now that wants a one world currency that wants a one world religion. Also, they are already talking about not being able to buy or sell if you don’t have a good social credit score or a vaccine passport or whatever… I would love to hear someone square away all of the stuff that’s happening in the world right before our eyes and you can say that it’s all happened in the past but if you really are honest about it, nothing going on today has happened in the past. For instance, why is the UN building built and modeled after the unfinished tower of babel? Why is there one seat inside the UN sanctuary that is above the other nine or 10 seats in the front and it’s seat number is literally 666? Are they just doing that to mess with us? What would be the thing that happens to make even the most staunch post Miller a believer in the actual seven year tribulation an actual antichrist rising to power? I have been searching, high and low for any videos, or any podcasts, where all of the things from the Euphrates river drying up to the red heifers,to Russia, Iran, being Gog and Magog… I wish someone would do a debate with a James Kaddis or one of those guys who have been putting all the dots together! I appreciate y’all’s ministry, and it has blessed me immensely!
The middle ages were pretty Christianized. Did those people suddenly behave righteously?
Not suddenly, no. But much more Christianly than the pagan cultures that preceded them. Baby steps. That was a first try at Christendom; there were plenty of flaws to point at. That does not mean we should abandon the goal.
@@kaylar3197 The truth is, adding Christianity to the culture made it better, it did not come even remotely close to fixing even one society. We are a light in the darkness. IN THE DARKNESS.
Light overcomes darkness. I’m sorry you see God’s gospel as so weak.
@@kaylar3197 sorry you aren't bright enough to see that I put that overcoming at a different point in time than winning elections :)
I said nothing about elections. I’m talking about a great mountain that fills the whole earth. I’m talking about Jesus getting what he came for, what Satan offered Him a shortcut to, namely, all the kingdoms of the earth. I’m talking about Jesus’ church prevailing against the tottering gates of hell to accomplish the great commission. I’m talking about the knowledge of the Lord covering the earth as the waters cover the sea.
I smell a debate brewing....Could be fun!
@37:01 this is just not true
It certainly is. It's a fact of history.
Historic PreMill is not the same as dispensational Premill.
@@ApologiaStudios cards on the table: i have a bahnsen U account, i've been listening to you guys, doug, etc., and i have no horse in the race except to know the truth and have my mind renewed.
that said, after umpteen hours of research and reading, i can safely say i'm now neither pre- or post-. what am i? confused. still searching.
but to say stuff like "dispensationalism" is new. well, the word certainly is. but who cares? there are dinosaurs mentioned in Job - just because the word is new they don't count?
help a brother out and explain to me how it's new, or how it's different. i've listened to all* you guys' content on this topic and, honestly no offense, you say the same stuff over and over and there are leaps of logic. once i figure this all out for myself, i'm never* going to leave someone hanging again. i'm going to answer every question they have, as far as it's possible
i'm genuinely seeking and it's frustrating hearing the same old strawmen. and to be sure, it's more frustrating because i know you guys are genuine too and i love everybody there
HELP
@@billybob-wx2re Research John Nelson Darby the father of dispensationalism. The Pre tribulation rapture was not taught before Darby.
@@jerardosc9534 will do. thanks Jerardo
I wonder what Durbin's response would be to the Great Commission did not mean that every single person would be saved or the world would only have Christians on it before Jesus will return. Evidence is the passage when Jesus says that the way to heaven is narrow and few find it while the pathway to destruction is wide and many go down that path. If only a few find the narrow path then how could the whole world eventually be Christians?
There will still be unbelievers on this World when Jesus returns. Otherwise there would be no need for judging the living and the dead.
Have you heard of limited atonment. It would be more correct to said definite atonment. There is a certain number of chosen people which was elected before the foundation who Christ died for, and when all of those people are saved which at the end of times will be the majority, then Christ shall complete his reign in this earth. At least that's how I understand it, if someone can correct me, please do. Blessings ya'll.
See I can see where this can be true, like with pre people kind of always referencing the rapture (to me it’s kinda like throwing in the towel like, “welp the world is going to waste anyway I’m just gonna keep doing what I’ve been doing with Jesus”) versus (at least what I’m understanding as) keep making disciples out of people and preaching. My only question to post people is: what about the mark? At least from my SMALL research (aka Google search on “do postmillennials believe in the mark of the beast”) where is the answer to that, because to me that sound like something bad that’s gonna happen (especially from my research on the UN and all that crap about a “one world order”) I would loved to be informed about this as I think having a conversation helps to give understanding, so if anyone is able to clear this up thanks 🙏🏼
Christians be blessed in Jesus name.
If he is saying that theonomy doesn’t provide answers for transforming culture, he by necessity and logic must provide one. Simple saying until the new heavens come is not an answer. It fails. Christians need a standard and we have that in the LAW.
I really don’t understand this theology.