What I love about Alex is the way he lays out all the chess move responses to his proposition at the outset so we don’t waste 30 minutes going back and forth with response and answer we already know will happen. This allows us to get into the meat of the topic much more quickly.
Unfortunately his words are wasted on the guest, perhaps a viewer will get more out of it. I really appreciate these kinds of conversations. This is my first time listening to Fr. Pine.
As a Catholic convert who has a deep love for both Fr. Pine and Alex, this was such an incredible collaboration and discussion. This is everything I could have ever wanted it to be, and more. ♥️
If Pine had an ounce/ gram of decency, he'd immediately leave a church that extorts funds from the poorest of followers, keeps them in scientific ignorance, hides peeDough priests from the law and attacks their victims. Disgusting
@@jacoblee5796 Honestly with guys like this I don't think they're dodging these objections consciously. They just exist in a completely different reality that isn't conducive to giving straightforward answers to straightforward objections. It's like pulling teeth.
What an excellent conversation, my favorite atheist and my favorite Thomist. Fr. Gregory brought me to tears yet Alex was so relatable. Thank you to whomever thought up this collaboration.
I love Fr Pine and click on his videos multiple times a week, and never understand what he's saying. It's very humbling lol God bless you both for having the conversation.
Was pleasantly surprised to find this crossover; I really enjoyed the conversation. Cracked me up when Fr. Pine had the realization that he was a preacher 😂, i.e., in the Order of Preachers. Reminds me of when I sometimes, randomly, look at my wife and realize I’m married 😅
As a non-believer, I didn’t find Fr. Pine’s argument against the inheritance of original sin compelling, but, my goodness, you’ve got to appreciate him actually using the scripture and the faith tradition/teachings as the basis for his refutation. It’s far more admirable to see a theologian try to answer tough questions via genuine introspection about their faith than it is to see any of these apologists refer to their rehearsed rebuttals in attempt to battle for points or gotchas like so often happens in debate.
This was incredibly refreshing in that regard. The Christian apologists I’m used to come off as incredibly unserious and withholding. Not to mention smug and morally superior.
Excellent point. I get tired of apologists borrowing from other traditions when convenient. as if it is all part of a central proof but then sling-shotting back to the 'inerrant word of god' which they seem to have spent most of their time not drawing from. However it is a major disadvantage, considering that the New Testament is full of the opposing points of view of the various "camps" that made up the early Christian; the most obvious being the difference in opinion between Peter and Paul. Peter, who was claimed to have personally known Jesus/Joshua was more than likely intensely incensed by this preacher, Paul, who essentially claimed to have first hand authority not by knowing the historical person, but by claiming a magical meeting event that no one can attest to. it was the greatest thorn in my side when I used to argue with my fellow Christian friends, and we literally had Biblical passages to back up our claims; me, from a practical position of activate care such as expressed in Matthew 25 (the sheep and the goats) and James 2:15-16 etc, whereas they would argue the Paulien position that faith was of greater worth than any other attribute of service, essentially proving Robert A. Heinlein's claim that any fool can find a passage in the Bible to back up their claim.
@@grgryocean I find them, almost to a man, intellectually dishonest. One of the worst examples of this is Peter Hitchens. or as I call him, Hitchens Minor.
Yes they seem to think every answer in the universe is in the bible and if its not in the bible its not worth answering or knowing. Its no wonder those sort of people gave rise to flat earth nuts.
"To fall in love with God is the greatest romance; to seek him the greatest adventure; to find him, the greatest human achievement." St. Augustine of Hippo
@@redmusic26 we didn't call it the First Error In philosophy .... just for the fun of it , that was 150+- YEARS AGO NOW a '' god '' will NEVER BE ANYTHING ELSE THEN a delusion , the game HAS BEEN OVER FOR 150+- YEARS , the ONLY THING a '' god '' CAN BE AN explanation FOR ... IS ... a delusion ... every religious person is running after a dead rabbit , in a stadium with NO LIGHTS ON , in the DARKNESS , PURE darkness
we didn't call it the First Error In philosophy .... just for the fun of it , that was 150+- YEARS AGO NOW a '' god '' will NEVER BE ANYTHING ELSE THEN a delusion , the game HAS BEEN OVER FOR 150+- YEARS , the ONLY THING a '' god '' CAN BE AN explanation FOR ... IS ... a delusion ... every religious person is running after a dead rabbit , in a stadium with NO LIGHTS ON , in the DARKNESS , PURE darkness
I’m a Christian, but I have massive love and respect for Alex. And I’m a “Protestant”, but I love Orthodoxy and Catholicism. I love seeing worlds collide so beautifully 😁
why DO you believe the ERROR IN YOUR BRAIN TO BE REAL , an actual thing in exitance , while .... , we didn't call '' making up gods ''' the First Error In philosophy .... just for the fun of it , that was 150+- YEARS AGO NOW a '' god '' will NEVER BE ANYTHING ELSE THEN a delusion , the game HAS BEEN OVER FOR 150+- YEARS , the ONLY THING a '' god '' CAN BE AN explanation FOR ... IS ... a delusion ... every religious person is running after a dead rabbit , in a stadium with NO LIGHTS ON , in the DARKNESS , PURE darkness
@@robocop4209 so what happens if someone raised without faith converts in your world view? My Mum raised me with no faith, was an atheist through most of my teens. Started to convert around 19, here we are today, was baptised and confirmed Catholic last year. Or do I just not exist in your world view
@@robocop4209 oh, as John Lennox rightly pointed out, that can also apply to Atheists, it's reductio ad absurdum. It doesn't even work in Historic Context because of the Early Christian Church having Converts in Spite of Persecution. But you know, keep using weak arguments, it doesn't help anyone
It is of paramount importance these objections are given thorough treatment and response from the top tier of Catholic intellectuals across the social media landscape.
Absolutely. The war we are fighting in the culture is ideological and rooted in philosophy. All of our societal ills for the past 300 years are rooted in the so called "enlightenment", which was absolutely inspired by the "light bearer" himself.
both are beautiful, we can see God in both. it truly is breathtaking to see two people come together and share their ideas with no hostility in mind. we are made for communion with one another!
@@steveymoon if you’re an atheist then that is your position. i am not an atheist nor am i here to convince you of my premises or why i hold them. in all my ways of interacting with people i have found the most fruitful and less likely to cause discord is when i view Christ in each person. certainly helps to keep me humble, even i disagree or find offense in what another person said that doesn’t mean that i can’t learn something form what they have said or their experiences. which why i am grateful that we are able to have this brief exchanges, especially in a world where all we see is toxicity. we often forget that behind the screen is another person who has their own life, struggles, and projects that they hope to accomplish. you’re and atheist or agnostic and i am sure you have reasons to how you arrived to that view. while i disagree with your conclusion i won’t shut down questions you have that are done in good faith and if i am not well versed in a topic i will let it be known. hope you have a nice day/night :)
Hmmm, Something is really happening. I must commend Alex for not just being a Tribal loyalist, but fostering good faith conversations across the board. I think we need that!
I have about 20 minutes left of it. And so far it’s a beautiful conversation. I highly recommend putting Alex’s and Fr Gregory Pine’s name in the title as it is barely getting any views compared to if you did. My Catholic friend sent me this video and I could not find it on TH-cam on my own. I searched up Alex O’Connor and never found it anywhere on the TH-cam search. I had to search up the direct title my friend sent me in order to see it
I agree that it would be better if Fr. Pine used simpler vocabulary, but if you are claiming someone has ill intent (here wanting to obfuscate), you should have good reasons to believe that. It just poisons the discussion if you assume that too lightly.
His vocabulary is not the issue since I find it neither alien nor intimidating. The problem put simply (and mirrored by several other comments) is that he didn’t actually answer any question put to him but rather danced around them. Should he ever leave the priesthood a career in politics awaits.
@pattykake7195 Who are you talking about? The only uncomfortable one, the only one stumbling over his same answers was Alex. He cannot take up a faith, he'd lose his fame.
So glad to see this happen. Fr Pine is a saintly priest and Dominican. I’m glad to see Alex branching out to speak to people who are really living out the Christian faith in its fullness.
So you’re saying Eve had to sin to suffer in order to find a place in heart that didn’t exist before when she was made from the rib of Adam? Why couldn’t God made her with that place in her heart to begin with? So You’re saying that Gods intention for us was suffering in order to complete our heart ?
@@christopherestrada2474 havent you ever noticed that the best people to have in our lives are those who have suffered who have grown for the better and go on and help others? Maybe the suffering is needed for our growth we cannot see the whole picture of why this is so, but those who have never struggled just dont seem fully mature
@@christopherestrada2474 Your false and antiquated epicurean paradox confuses suffering and work. Work can be a joy or a torment. The work of Love is joyful creativity. Loving to overcome the void of evil however is excruciating. The willing privation of the good responds with toil, thorns, and death to the work of Love. "My Father worketh hitherto, and I work" (John 5)
Fr. Gregory Pine is a living saint before the eyes of all people. We should all inspire to be like Fr. Pine and to do the works of Jesus Christ before us.
@Paul-s7 You don't need to defend yourself to me. I don't feel as though my comment was malicious, but just realistic. Religious people have a habit of thinking the best of others to their own detriment - how many seemingly kind and gentle people are exposed as wicked? Perhaps I'm just jaded, but I am also tired of peer-glorification based on bias.
@Paul-s7 So I just glanced back at your comment - you said I'm hiding behind something? And that I've been hurt, or that I think I'm wise. You don't know me. You're making all these assumptions based on nothing. You are offended by my comment is all. So just admit that. But there's no need to act as though you are trying to establish some good-will dialogue, when you then go in for the personal "attack". For the record, I have nothing to hide - I have spilled my thought-guts plenty of times to other people, to God, to my diary. I am doing the work on myself to transform myself, something very few people are actually willing to do. And I never claimed to be all-wise and just - that is ridiculous. Why don't you work out your own internal weaknesses and insecurities before trying to come for me simply because I said to have a bit of caution when glorifying others as saintly. And unless you're the priest in the video speaking, my original comment had absolutely nothing to do with you, but you somehow made it about you. Tf.
i'v seen priests in brown robes debating a couple of these youtube atheists before , this one has a white rag on , does it matter ? we didn't call ''making up gods'' the First Error In philosophy .... just for the fun of it , that was 150+- YEARS AGO NOW , out of 10.000+ errors our brain makes on DAILY BASIS , making up gods ... we put at Nr.1 , why IS that , you think ? a '' god '' will NEVER BE ANYTHING ELSE THEN a delusion , the game HAS BEEN OVER FOR 150+- YEARS , the ONLY THING a '' god '' CAN BE AN explanation FOR ... IS ... a delusion ... every religious person is running after a dead rabbit , in a stadium with NO LIGHTS ON , in the DARKNESS , PURE darkness
we are starved for these kinds of conversations, especially in a society where we are isolated from each other. a conversation must first be charitable and that is how we can truly learn to value the other person regardless if we don’t share their specific perspective(s).
I love this conversation so far. It seems like Alex has a mild misunderstanding of what a person generally experiences in conversion. He often seems to point to people have "one moment" that changes their life, thus he looks back and says, "well, doesn't is seem kinda comedic that it took that one moment to convert a person to the Church? What if they didn't (to use his example) go into that particular library?" Where I this falls short is that the converted person can look back and see all the moments in which God was trying to reach him, through prayer, through another person, etc., in which they rejected God's grace. It is never just one moment, and God does not make it dependent on one moment. For example, if Alex converts immediately after this interview, it would be ridiculous to suggest "if he didn't converse with Fr. Pine, he wouldn't have converted". He's spent almost his entire rational life studying the philosophy, interviewing theists and nontheists. They were all moments in the story of a man finding Christ, and all the moments previously were building blocks to what happended in the end.
@vanatheeveryoung2562 Is that a real teaching from Catholics? As Alex asked, what's the point of any of us going through this life if God already knew what we would choose and we didn't actually have to choose before dying?
This was so wonderful. I am so grateful that you both met and discussed. Fr. Gregory Pine is a treasure, and I have a soft place in my heart for Alex for how much he has sought.
Kudos to Alex for always approaching discussions/ debates from a position of intellectual honesty and true humbleness. With respect to Fr. Pine, are we really to believe that if a loving god exists and wants to have relationship with us it requires the kind of mental gymnastics just exhibited? The Jordan Petersonesque linguistic pretzels that sound so lofty but just amount to word salads. Alex asks simple, straight forward, unpretentious questions. Why can't the answers reflect that ?
@@fr.hughmackenzie5900 it wasn't a debate per se, Alex is asking questions as a " non-resistant , non- believer". The answers given were PHD level word salads. Fr. Pine, like most Christian apologists, is trying to convince himself as much as anyone else that what he has invested a life's worth of belief in is legitimate. It's the only explanation for responses like that.
@@josephschober4723 in terms of straight answers to straight questions with Alex numerous Catholics have done a lot better. Fr Pine does seem to find it hard to escape PhD level neo-Scholasticism.
@@fr.hughmackenzie5900 to be clear, no shade on Fr. Pine. He seems like a genuinely decent, obviously thoughtful man. The problem for me is the intellectual arrogance required to take the position of explaining a so called" gods" mind. Not to specifically pick on him, but surely he must be thinking to himself as he spines with such lofty explanations that he's really just desperately clinging g to his long held( probably indoctrinated) beliefs. Alex's questions are without agenda really. He's asking these questions on behalf of all non- resistant, non - believers.
Hope these two come together again soon. Even as a catholic I felt that I could resonate so much with Alex and his honest searching for a God that cannot be denied
Well Alex ain't buying it. So I guess he's bound for hell. Which this goof considers eternal punishment in whatever form that takes. Its fucked up guys. Eternal punishment for the crime of non belief.
@@andrewtuff216 Non belief is rejection of the Savior. No Savior, is God supposed to force us to believe? If you think we have a choice to believe or not, then we all have to face the consequences. Eternal punishment never concerns believers. We sleep well. So have it your way.
Loved the cadence and energy of this conversation. Almost soothing. Nice switch up from typical debate. Having said that, Alex is impressive and i stop short at being disappointed because although Greggorys continual inability to answer the majority of Alex’s questions. I’m reminded no one before has been able to. At least Greggorys not answers were done in a graceful and not an unwarranted defensive way. Pleasure listening to both.
As a spiritual director from the Catholic/Orthodox perspective, I am finding myself wishing that Alex was interviewing a spiritual director who could answer these very intimate questions about agency about fairness from the perspective of having worked with many different people, some of whom have profound revelation and some of whom have none. Not only is there a fairness, but it's not even necessarily an advantage to have profound revelation as it is usually reserved for a certain personality type who is more sensitive and also constitutionally weaker than those who are less sensitive and usually stronger. If the Holy Spirit comes into a room in a profound way, the sensitive types are going to feel that and experience it at the moment that it happens, but the non-sensitive types won't even notice it and there will be lots of crossover in between. However, in the long-term trajectory of their lives, both groups, depending on the condition of their will and their willingness will receive the same amount of benefit and transformation by those energies from the Holy Spirit. I don't think there's a single thing wrong with what this Catholic representative says in his answers, but since they chose a more conversational approach, I found myself wishing deeply that Alex was talking to someone who works intimately with multiple people coming to God because there's so much insight from that perspective that would have been useful in this conversation and taken it in a completely different direction.
Fr. Pine’s words were truly brilliant and deeply thoughtful. This was one of the rare instances where Alex seemed a bit uncomfortable-not due to the content or intent, but rather because Fr. Pine’s responses appeared even more thoughtful and intellectually profound than Alex’s questions or counters, which is quite unusual to see. Who would have expected that?
Seriously? I saw the opposite take place. Alex has grown tremendously as an interviewer and an interlocutor. He is just being extremely polite here, even when he seems frustrated when he has to repeat, rephrase, or completely abandon questions when Pine wouldn't (or couldn't) simply answer them. Alex didn't seem uncomfortable at all. He was well within his element. (Also, it doesn't make sense to say someone's responses were more "intellectually profound" than the question that was asked.. especially when the response doesn't contain an answer to said question.)
@georgekavanagh8220 did I say I love Alex going in the wrong direction or did I say I love Alex? I believe he's actually on exactly the right path. Been watching him for years and he's come a long way.
@@TheYoungCatholics Conversion is an instant act of God to which we react with repentance. There is no one good but God. Romans 10 :20 "I was found by those who not seek me; I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me." Sin blinds us to the light while repentance and forgiveness turns on the light. I'm quite sure you mean well, but stroking his ego won't help him.
@@georgekavanagh8220 He's helped convert a lot of Christians, including me 😊 it's not stroking his ego, I mean it purely out of the goodness and honesty of my heart.
@@TheYoungCatholics I'm sure you are totally sincere. I am a cradle Catholic, first com. confirmed, brown scap, Nine First Fridays and married in the C.C. I was simply a Catholic by culture. Remember, this is only me, but I was not converted until I was encountered directly by God. As Paul, in Galatians said, he did not get the gospel from men. So Charismatics Catholics are close to my position.
@@georgekavanagh8220 I certainly agree with you, my friend. I pray that Alex has that. I try to remember to pray for his conversion when I'm reminded of it.
As someone who was diagnosed with inattentive adhd as an adult and it’s drastically changed my life being on medication… I take personal offense to my lack of attention/my low resistance to distractions being ALL my fault 😂
I had to listen to some of Pines responses twice to intuit all the things he so eloquently didn't say. As always, Alex diplomatically points this out and then let's it go.
Pine came across to me like he was attempting to sound like an intellectual esotericist, in reality of course he sounded like a dickhead spouting complete gobbledygook
Great collab! I've watched a few of Alex's discussions with others , whilst being extremely intelligent he also is naive, some of his arguments come from emotion rather than logic, and security, given his upbringing, education and social class, I can see how these arguments would come to be. The road of life is long when living it ,especially in search of something, and in retrospect it's short given the finite amount of it pinning it against what you have and have found, and to seek truth in whatever way , is a life worth living, an amazingly BLESSED opportunity for someone to be able to do this as Alex does, and talk with those who can offer insights whether for or against a creator, almost feels like Alex is being favoured. In any case, The thing that stops atheists etc believing in God is the nature of God, not the idea of God itself, and the agnostic, is emotion.
Words will only take you so far. If you want to know what a pomegranate tastes like, reading about it, debating about it, quantifying it's mineral content, will never let you know its flavor. You must taste it. Experience it. There are many spiritual paths that will bring you an experience. They take practice, devotion, and sacrifice. A YT video won't cut it.
However, other people do this for other religions, and would say that they experience their god/gods. What this would show, is that humans are capable of ‘feeling/ experiencing the power of their almighty’ despite it being wrong (either the Christians are correct, or the Hindus etc). So devoting yourself the way you say could be more dangerous. , if it led to covertig to a different religion. This would link with what Alex commented on towards the beginning. Westerners would be more likely to ‘try’ Christianity first, and Thais would be more likely to devote themselves to Buddhism first. It seems unfair? Similarly, how can you personally garuntee that Hinduism/ Buddhism etc isn’t the right path if you haven’t spent time devoting yourself to that religion?
@aidanhazard5529 there are no Gods in the core of teaching of Buddhism , though it's wildly corrupted through different sects and cultures who have added stuff the idea of a God is a delusion created by thought in Buddhism.
The reason why it seems to many atheists here that Fr. Pine didn't answer Alex's concerns is because in a sense he did and in a sense he didn't. He didn't answer Alex's concerns in a *direct* way; rather, he answered them often in an *indirect* way (this is also why he may have appeared unclear). This is because, instead of addressing the concerns themselves, he addressed Alex's assumptions/presuppositions that led to Alex's concerns. It is analogous to an atheist stating something like, "The Big Bang doesn't show that the universe began in time. In fact, some physicists suggest models where the universe has always existed in some way. Therefore, it is not necessary to posit a God." The atheist, in this analogy, assumes that the universe always existing is problematic to the theist, but he would be mistaken. So, the theist might, instead of answering the concern directly (i.e., by discussing the temporal origins of the universe), answer it indirectly (i.e., by showing that an always-existing universe still requires a God, so the findings of the physicists on this matter are irrelevant). In addition to this, Fr. Pine used Thomistic terminology and thought without much explanation; to the Thomist, he made complete sense, but, to the atheist, he may have been hard to understand. Much of what he said could've gone over many viewers' heads.
I appreciate what your pointing out here, and I thinks it's partially true especially later in the podcast. Alex often holds theists to a blanket of beliefs that may not apply fairly. But to the first few questions, Pine was clearly obfuscating. I think he probably realized that Alex isn't so easily distracted, and that these types of answers dont really satisfy a literal question. In the latter half Pine stops "teaching" and becomes more honest, even saying "i dont know, i think maybe this..." or "one way to look at it is this..." a few times, which is a perfectly acceptable answer to difficult questions. Alex probably couldve met him half way and adjusted a little bit, seeing that Pine isnt interested in a literal interpretation of every word of Genesis. Either way both brilliant men, and the conversation definitely got better as it went.
It is only through the grace of God will one believe and convert. We know that logical reasoning alone will not convince an atheist. In a nutshell, Fr. Pine explains that we cannot comprehend God's infinite nature and His reasons for making things the way they are and why things happen the way they do. As Fr. Pine pointed out, what we humans perceive with our finite minds as suffering and injustice is not the same as from God's point of view. I would argue that to say that atheist are not at fault for not believing in God because of God hiddeness is being prideful because that is tantamount to saying I must understand as God does to believe. But to understand as God does means you are God by definition. Atheists insist that unless the infinite can fit into their finite minds, they will not believe. Body language of Alex says it all.
Don’t try to justify being indirect. Beating around the bush doesn’t get us anywhere. Pine was indirect because he doesn’t want to be demonized by the non Christian audience. There is no open discussion only Pine’s doctrine.
Praying for you Alex❤ I have watched you and admired your intellect for years, but now there is something else, an openness, maturity and wisdom. I hope you feel His love soon
this has basically been my argument for a decade to family members who say I should find God. Why shouldn't God find me? He's the one who can see through walls and shit
@@Unclenate1000 I hated God because he did not protect me from child abuse. I wanted nothing to do with him. I was 31 before he showed up uninvited, and I thought it was schizophenia as I heard a voice. I went from grade nine to two masters degrees. And yet, I had to repent to God who told me in no uncertain terms that he did not abuse me. I had to learn that this life is not fair, it's a test.
@ and you should still want nothing to do with him, if he subjected you to that inexcusable horror. A god whos both omnipotent and knows the future has no reason whatsoever to “test” anyone, and no excuse to “test” people by subjecting them to torture especially in childhood.
@@Unclenate1000 That is precisely as I saw it until he woke me up and showed the reason he allowed the abuse. The reason is more than acceptable to me as the reason Jesus was crucified is acceptable to Jesus. The key is to be willing to suffer for others. Ask yourself, what offense do you hold against God?
Atheists and religious NEED to watch this as to how to properly have this king of discussion if you want to have a positive experience with such an important topic. How brilliant. BTW I’m devout Catholic.
Mr. Pine is a sophist ,he dodged the first question about the Thai people with a bunch of dribble ,I haven't yet finished the discussion but it seems to me he holds a unfalsifiable belief such that NO observation would change his mind and this is opposite to Alex's belief.
@@cristristam9054multiple questions were dodged with flowery language. To seriously think that the indigenous peoples of Sentinel Island are going to hell because of their own failings to reach Christ is beyond absurd - *beyond*.
@@ghoulish6125 At least she is less of a sophist than most christians and even than the priest in this debate as they usually pass it off as logical(using logical fallacies) ,she at least is close to admitting it is a psychosis by saying it sounds crazy...
Alex has an even more Christian heart than we Christians. I have never heard him judge anyone for thinking differently. I am convinced that Jesus will consider him a friend because Alex is such a sincere seeker-there are few like him. Without even realizing it, he yearns for Jesus.
@@Theo_Skeptomai That’s how it seems to me-I prefer to see it that way in every person. Maybe I know him a little, because I often think similarly to him. Everyone yearns for love. And our God is love. Whoever loves already knows God.
@MarkoZorecHimself God's love is incredibly powerful....I've felt it. If Alex keeps on this path of yearning to know I believe he will have an experience to convince him. It's just a matter of time now.
@@MarkoZorecHimself I've loved. I've lost. Now I love again.. and I absolutely love my children unconditionally. I'm also an Atheist.. so, you're wrong with that one.
Which is something such a god could have and would have just already provided himself, making the very existence of this debate totally unnecessary and unjustified under the assumption that hes real
@@nathaniel5261 You seem to believe that God letting himself be seen will cause us all to follow him. God does not simply want us to see that he exists, even Satan believes that; God wants us to follow him and the trurh is he won't allow us sin. We love our sin more than we love God.
I am a Catholic and just want to compliment Alex since I have watched him a few times and never did he portray arrogance. He is respectful and humble and obviously intelligent.
A big part of how we build up the numerator is seeking God (to whatever degree is available in our circumstances), using the grace He gives us, asking forgiveness, forgiving others . . . not all just trying to be "good person" on our own to prove we are worthy. God makes us worthy. We just need to avoid running away, many times.
20 minutes in, and I am reminded that the purpose of apologetics is not the convincing of the non-Believer to accept the faith, but to attempt to keep the Believer in despite their increasing doubt of the tale they've been told. Because none of these explanations thus far do anything but restate, apriori that God exists and the way things are are the way he wants them to be. This further requires the starting position that the god under discussion is good, and thus his works are good.
Alot said doesn't fit with both sides except maybe Alex is on the honest view of it all and the priest with words that are usless to billions of Gods People who by average surly wouldn't understand and surly not take half fully educated or the other for granted, for its Gods work to support and not Mans. and this exstreamly Educated Priest fr, workswell with Alex. one thing frustrates an honest person in America of most honest low educated run in the Billions.. the Bible suggest no education and here we have the best educated is as okword as most suggestions demands of the scriptures. it doesn't add up! Faith is used when something can't be answerd. not to the passive faithfull but a honest skeptic needs to be honestly and spiritually given enough to know spiritually only at least once in 1 life time. and unfair or unreal if it can't happen. 2000 years ago 1 didn't believe with evidence of some sort and surly today will make it that much more reasonable and understood to a skeptic why.
I used to not believe (extreme cynic and skeptic) and watch these debates, *subconsciously* desiring to reinforce my reasons for not believing. Although I'm sure I would've claimed to be open minded at that time. It wasn't until I wanted to really understand how, what and why a Christian believes that God opened my eyes to the truth. John 3:16-20, Proverbs 2:3-5 and James 4:6 enlightens my understanding of what was going on in my heart prior to and leading up to my conversion (in hindsight). For the record, I think Catholicism is a counterfeit Christianity, not stacking up against the Bible which I now (miraculously) believe to be God's word.
Can't object to that conclusion based on this video. I'm Catholic and it took me two days to get through 58m of this. I'm done. I thought it was supposed to be _Jesuits_ who never gave anyone a straight answer.
I believe apologetics should start with the position of "IF a God exists and that God is good, is there a logical explanation of the conditions of our world?" They will have succeeded to the extent that such an explanation is plausible or sensible. As far as I am concerned if such a God exists, the conditions of the world are such that no one can convince another of His existence, each would have to find out for themselves.
Baptist Deacon here, can’t believe this was posted 8 days ago and I never knew about it! I am thoroughly enjoying this conversation. I follow both of these men. Listening to their thoughts on various topics has deepened my faith over the years and helps me to answer others’ questions more concretely. 👍🏼 I will continue to pray for Alex to come to know Christ.
Then you haven't understood a word that Alex has said. The Dominican ' hard man' priest is saying that some people are destined to go to Hell whatever they do. That's hideous. He also obsfucates and back tracks when Alex points out the absurdity of the Eden myth. Alex has been traumatised in the past by the cruel doctrines of the church, and the priest must know this, yet offers no comfort but instead resorts to pseudo intellectual clap trap which is insulting to a well educated young man like Alex. The doctrine of Hell is utterly obnoxious.
This is my second time listening to this… what a delightful conversation between two brilliant minds. I would love to see these two dialogue for a multi hour conversation and on a series of such topics. Absolutely fascinating. Thanks so much for sharing this with us.
Glad to have listened. My only hope is that we don't all fall prey to the trend to over intellectualize salvation. Glad we have Fr Pine to assist when we do, but hopefully we all acknowledge that there is nothing new under the sun. There are no new questions, only new questioners. Humility is a virtue. We aren't that smart.
There is plenty new under the sun, the intellectual conversations of the past are what formed the modern incarnations of religion today, and continue to inform and shape us over time.
What exactly was insufferable about him here? I found him to be quite charitable and kind. In fact his body language is somewhat guarded, not arrogant.
I like both, but I find humility to be oozing off of Pine. And not so much of Alex. For example, Alex's argument hinges on him doing no wrong as a seeker, while he would never make the claim that psychology as a field supports the idea that we can accurately access ourselves. Pine is hard to understand at times, but that is also because he is very measured and accurate.
To be fair to Alex though, he did asked on a humble way to Fr. Pine what he could have done different . I do not think he argued he did everything perfect in his search for God
Im a catolic, this is the catolic language, you need to be aknowledged of some Dogmas and the catechisis of the church. This is why i dont like to hear apologetics from priests, as a catolic i get what he is saying but for an ateist or even a luke warm catolic that language is chinese
@@TheRealShrike he did answer all of the questions and with a remarkable wisdom and clarity, i was very impressed by how schooled he is in cristianity theology. The thing is that he is answering atheistic doubts with Cristian dogmas, Alex or any other atheist could not in any way understand this language. The problem with Alex here is that he thinks he can be a liberal and a cristian and marry these beliefs, he cant, he either allows his liberal mindset to die or he will always be an atheist. He seems to be so frustated during this whole podcast not having any answer dealt in a way he could understand. The key here is understanding that Liberalism is a radical concept that puts Humanity in the center of Universe, and puts individual freedom above everything, it is a radical belief for freedom that puts Freedom has an end in itself. Anyone that wants to leave atheism needs to understand what liberalism his, that its modern roots are the french revolution, the revolution against divine centralised power and autorithy. Any person that wants to understand the criistian/catolic perspective needs to reject liberalism or atleast understand that the last 3 centuries where a fortification of extreme individualism against divine hierarchy and autorithy. Alot of Alex questions seem to be just a dificulty in placing moral sense, beetwen this natural view on a humanity below God and this modern world that puts the individual as its own God, this seems to be the main obstruction for atheists to understand the moral code of the Bible. Anyone who has this doubts and actually wants to convert i advise reading Marcel Lefebre, he explains it in a very Atheistic Friendly language, even though is writhings are for catolics who dont agree with the liberalisation of the church. Fr Pine language and understanding of things its rooted in catolic tradition, its a language pre french revolution, pre age of liberalism, thus incompreensible to modern men this is to show how much we westerners have been robbed of our identity.
At around 1:12 Alex talks to inheritance of sin that ‘locks’ us out. Catholicism teaches that baptism and reconciliation are sacraments that fully restore grace, placing us back metaphorically speaking ‘inside Eden’. All the locks disappear (to use his analogy) until we, not God, install our own home made new locks - which are removed again at next reconciliation. (I have omitted what is the case for non-Catholics for brevity).
@@j8000 Oh dear - this is a big topic. Let me try this. Whatever the various beliefs there is only one reality. Moslems and Christians can’t be both correct. Jesus said nobody comes to the Father except through him. He also said you can do nothing without him. This is true for every person on the planet whether they know it or not. Catholics have more access to these truths than others, but it is equally true for the Hindu person. So how does this work? Sin is merely what separates you and the Father. Jesus is the bridge a cross that sin. There is no toll for that bridge. Your faith or trust (or whatever is enough) If you die in sin (most of us) you meet Jesus and this happens regardless of who you are. He has a 1-1 training session with you where are taught the true meaning and depth of God’s love. Most importantly you come to understand that you are worthy of this love. This is not a nice process, it is searing to your soul to feel and understand this love. But 100% of people pass the training session since it is given by Jesus himself. The training session is naturally deeper for those with more sins, and just like gym work that helps you will say “I wish I had not eaten that donut yesterday “. It is of course worth it a trillion times over, but you will naturally wish you started it before you died. If you had not only would this process happen in heaven with Jesus be easier, but life on earth would have been easier and more loving (you can see this clearly now, but you could not on earth due to your pride) Catholics call this personal 1-1 time with Jesus purgatory. Even most Christians deny it. But as I said above, what is true it true regardless of whether you have heard of it or believe in. When Jesus died on the cross he descended into Hades and baptised all the souls there - Abraham and Moses and countless millions more. He will do the same for the person who dies today without ever havjng heard his name. He has all bases covered. Of that I am sure. Exactly how I cannot know for sure.
@@johnsalamito6212 Thank you for taking the time. This sounds like universalism? "this is not a nice process, it is searing to your soul to feel and understand this love" Why? The souls were created to understand that love, surely? "when jesus died on the cross he descended into hades and baptised all the souls there" How are there any souls in hades if everyone meets jesus when they die? Wouldn't everyone, even pre-linguistic humans from two millions years ago, get the training session and succeed?
@ No I am not a Universalist. People/souls reject Jesus. They condemn themselves to live without him (this is hell) but he always invites them to the wedding feast. Many gospel parables describe this.
I don't find people seeking God, per se. They often realize they want to find truth, which they may seek, while not really wanting to find a God to whom they are accountable. Personally, God found me when I wasn't seeking him. But the change he caused in me, my thinking and my heart, then caused me to seek him. John 6:44 and Matthew 11:27 explain this phenomenon.
Is it possible that you, like myself, just didn't understand his answers? It's naive to assume he just avoided answering them all. Additionally, it is also possible that his answers didn't satisfy Alex's (or your) sensibilities. It is more and more obvious to me that Alex is locked in a modernist materialist frame that prevents him from seeing things from other's point of view.
Alex articulates my own questions about original sin and the arbitrariness of divine revelation so well! These are precisely two of the main reasons why I have slowly drifted away from thinking Christianity is true, atleast in its conventional form.. and I didnt hear anything from Father Pine which was a reasonable answer to those questions.
I would love to take a swing if you want to outline them? Could you elaborate on what you mean by the "arbitrary" nature of divine revelation? If arbitrary means "without meaning". Then any choice made by God is by definition not arbitrary... As God is meaning itself
Agreed. There has never been good argument or evidence for the existence of god. Faith is not a virtue and belief, especially unwarranted belief, should be questioned.
@@scottymeffz5025 I wouldn't say that there has never been a good argument for God's existence so easily. Maybe the ones you know about don't convince you and that's alright. But it doesn't mean there has never been a good one.
@RedRoosterRoman I was referring to the fact the geographic distribution of religions in the world. Most people follow a particular religion because of their place and family of birth. Not because of intellectual or spiritual discussions. And then they justify that with subsequent arguments. And the the obvious tribalism which comes with defending "my' religion. Dispassionate pursuit of truth is very rare in my opinion. Like Alex mentioned, the current reality seems to be better explained by just natural forces in a non Christian world. This is kinda what you would expect in a world where religion is part of the human evolutionary and cultural story. Not a world with an all knowing and loving God. I understand that there are work arounds for this problem by changing traditional Christian doctrines like hell, need for evangelism and personal belief. I hope something like that is true because I don't want to live in a meaningless Godless universe..
The very reality of divine hiddenness and the fact that this debate even exists already disproves the existence of the all loving god who allegedly wants a relationship with us.
Look at the gospels, all people Jesus healed first asked. Pray for faith every day for a week or two and you will start believing. But then don't give the excuse that you manipulated yourself into a belief.
@ i was devout catholic for like 20 years. I know i was manipulated and manipulated myself to think certain things counted as him “revealing” himself, and i have no reason to think its any different for anyone else. Also im talking about **actually** showing himself, like he allegedly did to Adam, Abraham etc. so clearly hes able to and has no valid excuse not to.
@@nathaniel5261 thank you for sharing your background. I'm coming back to Catholicism after 16 years and God after 10. What changed my heart was hitting the rock bottom with one of my addictions and realizing I am truly powerless. I hope you find your peace
@ well the point youre making disproves an argument commonly used as an excuse for god’s negligent hiding, so at least you got that going. No of course we wont be forced, its just that now we’ll actually have the info that we need and can make an actual informed decision rather than essentially guessing based on feelings and hearsay.
The Lord tells us not to judge what is in other people's hearts, what they felt in their hearts we have no access to outside of what the text suggests, which is that they knew it was not what they were told to do, and they did it anyways, and that Adam and Eve both sloughed the blame onto other things and did not take responsibility for their actions. That they were not "at fault" for disobediance seems to be a projection. If I look at my own heart, it is obvious to me that I carry the same traits. I know someone told me not to do something, yet I knowingly abrogate it, or keep to it. Looking closely at the punishments alotted out to the 3 characters, they are the seeds of their redemption. Man and women learn to be selfless and patient in suffering through them, and the serpant loses his potency to harm us. Conner says he knows what he would choose now given the choice of a palace and a hovel, and he knows he chooses the hovel.
He seeks the palace narrative to justify itself first, before being able to make that choice. You've skipped ahead, by saying he chose the hovel. He can't choose something he isn't convinced exists, anymore than you could willingly choose to believe in another religion's claims simply because they claim it top down dogma style in their scriptures. You'd seek bottom up data, hopefully. That's what he is doing, and not finding. He's seeking, but not hearing a response. The thing the scripture says to do and will get a response on... So how's he to know it is true if it can't self validate itself via the methods it claims should work? How long do you keep trying something from a guidebook that you can't verify the claims within of, when you do try doing what it says to do, you get no results. When do we move to the view that continually trying and getting no results would be like using an old science book, thinking miasma was the cause of all diseases, to understand microbiology at that point?
It blows my mind that so many thought this was a good conversation. Fr. PIne dodged the core of just about every issue Alex brought up, but he did so with complex dogma, and reciting of whatever he has been fed through his studies to make it seem as though he somehow had the upper hand. Alex presented himself with great vulnerability and Fr. Pine failed to share in that. It's also very telling that Pine said he never reads the comments in youtube videos because he is too fragile, perhaps his only vulnerable moment. I appreciated this honest statement amongst all the other flowery language but certainly points to the fact that deep down he is a very unresolved man, and rightfully so. If one possesses the ultimate truth of the universe you think they could stand against any voice and not be shattered. I'll publicly thank GOD that I was able to escape the chains of Catholicism. And if there is a heaven, I assure you Alex O'Connor will be sitting in the highest of ranks, as he has the courage to stand in these arenas time after time, and is always met with these impersonal arrogant men, and still remains kind. Damn I just want to give Alex a hug for this. He is more Christ like than ANY theologian I've ever encountered.
Yeah this guys sounds intelligent and uses a lot of lofty words but when I honestly break down in simple terms what he’s saying it’s just the same old dogma with numerous blind spots in the explanation
I'm neither Christian (by the modern sense, anyway) nor Atheist, so I have no dog in this fight. However, that being said, I greatly appreciate both Pine and O'Connor's sufficient expression of knowledge, as well as their respect and composure toward one another. This was by far one of the most intriguing and thought-provoking discussion I've heard in a while.
This was frustrating. Alex asked pointed questions and the Pine either refused or was unable to directly address them. He answered like a politician. I sincerely wanted to hear responses to the actual questions.
I think Alex's questions were also kinda unfair because Fr Pine does not take a literal interpretation of the text following the catholic caution from St Augustine. It's like Richard Dawkins debate with Peterson where he questioned Peterson on the virgin birth veracity as a truth claim which is irrelevant from the perspective of Peterson as he is not a Christian in the traditional sense but find the outcome of the Christian worldview to be positive.
I hope Alex feels the difference between the interviews he had with Dawkins and Fr. Pines in terms of quality and sensibility and love. I enjoyed every moment of this conversation. P. I have a feeling that Alex will eventually turn to God bc he is seeking. “Seek and you shall find.”
Wow, still got 20 min to go but kinda blown away/mind blown it’s definitely going over my head a lot but this is amazing in the most literal sense of the word I am amazed. Alex manages to really articulate with great detail and precision and some emotion, though without getting carried away and being rude or crude, the tough questions, real dilemma’s in faith and Fr Gregory Pine does an outstanding job in replying, not necessarily rebutting, not shutting down but answering the questions and listens so well so that the conversation can continue. Bravo both, I really hope Alex enjoys this as much a as I am. Hoping and praying for him, I’ve got huge respect for him, for both of them 👏👏
I like how Fr. Pine approached the inquisitor's questions from the divine perspective, not a human one. God's logic is wider and deeper than our common ways of thinking about equality, justice, etc.
You invented a " Gods logic" to try and get around the fact that logical thought fails in your beleif . The same trick as pretending there is another alternative mathematics because your answers are wrong.
Does having prisons or even the death penalty, stop people from being bad? I would think that some people would act bad regardless, so why would the knowledge that hell is real, be any different?
I'm in agony because Alex is asking all the right questions, and he's getting no direct responses. I'm Roman Catholic, I have no hope of speaking with him but I think I'll treat his questions to a written response and pray he reads it.
Personally, I see a lot of subtle pride centered around "I" and "me". someone from an atheistic background may not find this destructive when seeking God, but what everyone needs to understand is that a lot of lukewarm Christians don't have this divine experience because of pride. Reading books like "little flowers of St Francis can give you an idea of how deep humility can go, or just go and watch the movie "The reluctant saint" and weigh on where you stand in humility before we complain about the divine hiddenness.
It goes along with "turn the other cheek" A clever ploy of the Romans to invent JC as a secret agent, when all they wanted if for the Jews to obey, worship the same gods, and pay their taxes to the empire
Instead of asking God for faith with true humility, they reproach Him for lacking it! They believe that only with their dying reason will they reach God, as if God were an idea that could fit into our small heads... And we must not think that those who do not have faith in God stop having faith. This faith simply transforms and mutilates itself to adapt to other things, like thinking that reason is sufficient to explain all reality.
C.S. Lewis "Great Divorce" is the best illustration of how easy it is to choose hell, even if they know for sure and are currently experiencing hell itself, I've ever read. Its easy to pursue an intermediate good to a bad end, as an overbearing mother, or a vindictive employee, or a prideful intellect, over an absolute good that will annihilate that position of a distorted good, whether its the nuturing instinct, personal justice, or studiousness and curiosity. In fact, we do it constantly. God help us.
@j8000 in great divorce, a man's boss comes to apologize for treating his employee badly and tries to get him to follow him to salvation. The employee refuses to go for he believes someone so nasty should not be forgiven so he stays in hell.
@@wasumyon6147 I fail to see the intermediate good, for starters. On your view, he stays in hell - there's no goodness, intermediate or otherwise. Wether offering forgiveness would constitute an absolute good is also entirely theoretical. Perhaps the boss, shattered by not being forgiven makes a stronger resolution never to cause a similar harm again in the future. Pain aversion is a powerful motivator, and the pain of rejection signs deep.
Ok, to echo Alex here, there are many people who are born into other religions, who live out their entire lives, diligently following the God or Gods they believe in and trying to be good people, and who never once hear about Jesus. How did those people "freely choose against" believing in the right God? I don't think this issue can be written off so easily. Those people were not rejecting God, they were not turning their backs on faith, they were doing everything they could to live the kind of life their religious upbringing taught them to live, they just had the misfortune of being born into the wrong religion. And for that they must be punished? How is that just? How is that the action of a perfectly lovely God who desires a relationship with all of us?
To be the opposite voice to the guy above, this would be fairly easy to answer under Catholicism (I have not watched the entire discussion so I’m not sure how Fr. Pine has answered all of Alex’s questions). That’s because God is not the God that is only written in the Bible. What do I mean, you may ask? In Catholicism we don’t adhere to Sola Scriptura-that is, Scripture Alone: Bible Alone. We have traditions, we have the Church passed down by the apostles that God has helped in the past. In our tradition, God doesn’t punish other people for simply being in different religions to Christianity. Concerning people of other religions, this is what the Catechism of the Catholic Church has to say (though fair warning this is lengthy. If you have any questions, shoot them away): 843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."332 844 In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them: Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair.333 845 To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son's Church. the Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. the Church is "the world reconciled." She is that bark which "in the full sail of the Lord's cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world." According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah's ark, which alone saves from the flood.334 "Outside the Church there is no salvation" 846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body: Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336 847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church: Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337 848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."
Catholics believe in something called "invincible ignorance" in other words we hold that if someone has never heard of God or Christianity he follows the law written upon his heart he will still be saved, we evangelize because it is easier to be saved with the gospel than without
Love you Alex, saying this as a believer, even when you were more of a new atheist, I believe you're the only New atheist skeptic Ive seen that actually makes an effort to have good faith discussions. You being vegan at least back then also made me a fan. Been a 11 year vegan now.
Christians always think people are going out of their way to reject God, and there is always a smugness about it. I have never heard an argument about why there is divine hiddenness that makes any sense.
I am very clear that I went out of my way, for years, to reject God. I didn't want him interfering. As those years are now past, I feel a great humility and no sign whatsoever of smugness toward those who presently reject God. Surely I can't be the only one who is not smug.
They have to do this out of desperation in order to project the problem onto us, in absence of a valid reason for god hiding which as you said they have no good argument for
What I love about Alex is the way he lays out all the chess move responses to his proposition at the outset so we don’t waste 30 minutes going back and forth with response and answer we already know will happen. This allows us to get into the meat of the topic much more quickly.
Alex has to do so because religious people never have a direct and clear answer.
Instead, he backed over the same argument 5 times in various ways. Insufferable
..hmm? An old lawyer's trick there - and somewhat selective in regards to all [possibly] relevant moves.
Yeah except you don’t. You don’t seek God honestly and not find him unless you didn’t seek honestly.
@@naiyang888 im a convert so I'd like to politely disagree i think we have plenty of direct and clear answers
I must be getting old that i would get excited for such a podcast.
gg im 28. i must be old as heck :S
@@Sumtingwongbruh123 I'm in my second life...
16. i must be very old😁
Nah I'm 21 and find apologetics and anti apolgetics extremely interesting
@ Glad to hear young people interested in it too !
Fr. Pine certainly is a master of speaking eloquently, without actually staying on point.
Unfortunately his words are wasted on the guest, perhaps a viewer will get more out of it. I really appreciate these kinds of conversations. This is my first time listening to Fr. Pine.
@@notsocrates9529yeah mate, theists are 100% the reasonable side of the conversation 😂
‘There are places in the heart that do not exist until suffering enters in’
So true
@Paul-s7😂😂😂😂
Then God should create a heart that doesn’t require to suffer for that part to exist.
But also...there are places in the heart that do not exist until love enters in
@@noxify2869 Why? Many appreciate that the existence is not that easy and boring.
@@noxify2869... a heart suffer because of choice...
As a Catholic convert who has a deep love for both Fr. Pine and Alex, this was such an incredible collaboration and discussion. This is everything I could have ever wanted it to be, and more. ♥️
If Pine had an ounce/ gram of decency, he'd immediately leave a church that extorts funds from the poorest of followers, keeps them in scientific ignorance, hides peeDough priests from the law and attacks their victims. Disgusting
Yes. Fr. Pine was so gentle and pastoral, which pairs perfectly with Alex.
@@innerreformation5232didn’t have to dress like a washcloth did he
Would of been nice if Pine actually addressed Alex's objections instead of side stepping all of them.
@@jacoblee5796 Honestly with guys like this I don't think they're dodging these objections consciously. They just exist in a completely different reality that isn't conducive to giving straightforward answers to straightforward objections. It's like pulling teeth.
I liked how respectful both of these individuals were. Well done to both Fr. Pine and Mr. O'Connor
Yh but that should be the standard, sadly we've become used to primitive „debates“
What an excellent conversation, my favorite atheist and my favorite Thomist. Fr. Gregory brought me to tears yet Alex was so relatable. Thank you to whomever thought up this collaboration.
I love Fr Pine and click on his videos multiple times a week, and never understand what he's saying. It's very humbling lol God bless you both for having the conversation.
Was pleasantly surprised to find this crossover; I really enjoyed the conversation.
Cracked me up when Fr. Pine had the realization that he was a preacher 😂, i.e., in the Order of Preachers. Reminds me of when I sometimes, randomly, look at my wife and realize I’m married 😅
I did not expect *this* collab.
haha right
I thought it was one of the clickbaity thumbnails which showed particular people but didn't feature them.
Two honest people doing their thing gives good and honest results.
But it is a welcome one
Apparently neither did they 😅
Fr. Pine is one of my favorite main stream Dominican priests. God Bless you Fr. Pine.
He's like 15th on my roster
@@CoolPigeon98 tell us all of them
@@CoolPigeon98 good things must share
Do you have any favourite Dominican priests who are outside the main stream?
@ Quite a few. A fair bit of them are dead. However, their works live on and are phenomenal.
As a non-believer, I didn’t find Fr. Pine’s argument against the inheritance of original sin compelling, but, my goodness, you’ve got to appreciate him actually using the scripture and the faith tradition/teachings as the basis for his refutation. It’s far more admirable to see a theologian try to answer tough questions via genuine introspection about their faith than it is to see any of these apologists refer to their rehearsed rebuttals in attempt to battle for points or gotchas like so often happens in debate.
This was incredibly refreshing in that regard. The Christian apologists I’m used to come off as incredibly unserious and withholding. Not to mention smug and morally superior.
@@grgryoceanThe Christian apologists on TH-cam are very intelligent, knowledgable and patience.
Excellent point. I get tired of apologists borrowing from other traditions when convenient. as if it is all part of a central proof but then sling-shotting back to the 'inerrant word of god' which they seem to have spent most of their time not drawing from. However it is a major disadvantage, considering that the New Testament is full of the opposing points of view of the various "camps" that made up the early Christian; the most obvious being the difference in opinion between Peter and Paul. Peter, who was claimed to have personally known Jesus/Joshua was more than likely intensely incensed by this preacher, Paul, who essentially claimed to have first hand authority not by knowing the historical person, but by claiming a magical meeting event that no one can attest to. it was the greatest thorn in my side when I used to argue with my fellow Christian friends, and we literally had Biblical passages to back up our claims; me, from a practical position of activate care such as expressed in Matthew 25 (the sheep and the goats) and James 2:15-16 etc, whereas they would argue the Paulien position that faith was of greater worth than any other attribute of service, essentially proving Robert A. Heinlein's claim that any fool can find a passage in the Bible to back up their claim.
@@grgryocean I find them, almost to a man, intellectually dishonest. One of the worst examples of this is Peter Hitchens. or as I call him, Hitchens Minor.
Yes they seem to think every answer in the universe is in the bible and if its not in the bible its not worth answering or knowing. Its no wonder those sort of people gave rise to flat earth nuts.
"To fall in love with God is the greatest romance; to seek him the greatest adventure; to find him, the greatest human achievement."
St. Augustine of Hippo
Yeah....so .....someone made an assertion. Provided no backing evidence. What is your point?
@@sysprogmanadhoc2785 "'If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear,'" Mark 4:23.
@@redmusic26 we didn't call it the First Error In philosophy .... just for the fun of it , that was 150+- YEARS AGO NOW
a '' god '' will NEVER BE ANYTHING ELSE THEN a delusion , the game HAS BEEN OVER FOR 150+- YEARS ,
the ONLY THING a '' god '' CAN BE AN explanation FOR ... IS ... a delusion ...
every religious person is running after a dead rabbit , in a stadium with NO LIGHTS ON , in the DARKNESS , PURE darkness
we didn't call it the First Error In philosophy .... just for the fun of it , that was 150+- YEARS AGO NOW
a '' god '' will NEVER BE ANYTHING ELSE THEN a delusion , the game HAS BEEN OVER FOR 150+- YEARS ,
the ONLY THING a '' god '' CAN BE AN explanation FOR ... IS ... a delusion ...
every religious person is running after a dead rabbit , in a stadium with NO LIGHTS ON , in the DARKNESS , PURE darkness
@@redmusic26 Juct coz a book says summat, dunt make it true
I’m a Christian, but I have massive love and respect for Alex. And I’m a “Protestant”, but I love Orthodoxy and Catholicism.
I love seeing worlds collide so beautifully 😁
Wow...your the same as your parents......what are the odds ? Lol
why DO you believe the ERROR IN YOUR BRAIN TO BE REAL , an actual thing in exitance , while .... ,
we didn't call '' making up gods ''' the First Error In philosophy .... just for the fun of it , that was 150+- YEARS AGO NOW
a '' god '' will NEVER BE ANYTHING ELSE THEN a delusion , the game HAS BEEN OVER FOR 150+- YEARS ,
the ONLY THING a '' god '' CAN BE AN explanation FOR ... IS ... a delusion ...
every religious person is running after a dead rabbit , in a stadium with NO LIGHTS ON , in the DARKNESS , PURE darkness
@@robocop4209 so what happens if someone raised without faith converts in your world view? My Mum raised me with no faith, was an atheist through most of my teens. Started to convert around 19, here we are today, was baptised and confirmed Catholic last year. Or do I just not exist in your world view
@@robocop4209 oh, as John Lennox rightly pointed out, that can also apply to Atheists, it's reductio ad absurdum. It doesn't even work in Historic Context because of the Early Christian Church having Converts in Spite of Persecution. But you know, keep using weak arguments, it doesn't help anyone
@@Garry_Combine The opposite also happens. Still not as likely
It is of paramount importance these objections are given thorough treatment and response from the top tier of Catholic intellectuals across the social media landscape.
@@greypilgrim1649 Fr. Pine has given his objections a thorough treatment.
@@greypilgrim1649 Fr. Pine is a "top tier" theologian.
Absolutely. The war we are fighting in the culture is ideological and rooted in philosophy. All of our societal ills for the past 300 years are rooted in the so called "enlightenment", which was absolutely inspired by the "light bearer" himself.
@@kelly4187 Yeah that darned Satan sure is what drove society away from the Church and God! If only God hadn't let him rebel...
@@kelly4187real
Fr. Pine… wow. What a Beautiful soul. God bless him.
I agree. Alex is marvellous.
both are beautiful, we can see God in both. it truly is breathtaking to see two people come together and share their ideas with no hostility in mind. we are made for communion with one another!
@@airinkujo3207 - no, we can't see god in either of them as that makes zero sense.
@@steveymoon if you’re an atheist then that is your position. i am not an atheist nor am i here to convince you of my premises or why i hold them. in all my ways of interacting with people i have found the most fruitful and less likely to cause discord is when i view Christ in each person. certainly helps to keep me humble, even i disagree or find offense in what another person said that doesn’t mean that i can’t learn something form what they have said or their experiences.
which why i am grateful that we are able to have this brief exchanges, especially in a world where all we see is toxicity. we often forget that behind the screen is another person who has their own life, struggles, and projects that they hope to accomplish. you’re and atheist or agnostic and i am sure you have reasons to how you arrived to that view. while i disagree with your conclusion i won’t shut down questions you have that are done in good faith and if i am not well versed in a topic i will let it be known. hope you have a nice day/night :)
@airinkujo3207 - I don't see toxicity in the world at all and so now I'm very curious why you do. I see love and beauty, far more than I see toxicity.
Hmmm, Something is really happening. I must commend Alex for not just being a Tribal loyalist, but fostering good faith conversations across the board. I think we need that!
Yeah, hes great like that, always steelmanning his opponents arguments and taking then seriously.
Yes. It's too bad I never see it reciprocated.
What is really happening?
@@chubbuck35 Alex is "killing them with kindness"..
Deconstructing one Christian at a time!
@@timandmonicaboth are taking each others arguments seriously as well as most people in the comments
I have about 20 minutes left of it. And so far it’s a beautiful conversation. I highly recommend putting Alex’s and Fr Gregory Pine’s name in the title as it is barely getting any views compared to if you did. My Catholic friend sent me this video and I could not find it on TH-cam on my own. I searched up Alex O’Connor and never found it anywhere on the TH-cam search. I had to search up the direct title my friend sent me in order to see it
Is @massoftheages hosting this conversation? I was trying to find who hosted this conversation as it doesn't seem like @massoftheages type content.
Anti Catholic algorithm
Looks like he listened
God bless Fr. Gregory Pine. God bless the Order of Preachers. God bless Holy Mother Church
Amen. St. Dominic Pray for Us. St. Thomas Aquinas Pray for Us.
@@piouspapist Maybe St. Dominic wants you to put your back into it instead :P
@@radscorpion8 what?
Backshots?
@@DarkSpiritTony TSSF goated. Nice playlist.
I admire a comprehensive vocabulary when employed for clarification but not when it is used to obfuscate.
Lol exactly
Is this comment Ironic?
@@munashemanamike4217 Unintentionally, I'd imagine.
I agree that it would be better if Fr. Pine used simpler vocabulary, but if you are claiming someone has ill intent (here wanting to obfuscate), you should have good reasons to believe that. It just poisons the discussion if you assume that too lightly.
His vocabulary is not the issue since I find it neither alien nor intimidating. The problem put simply (and mirrored by several other comments) is that he didn’t actually answer any question put to him but rather danced around them. Should he ever leave the priesthood a career in politics awaits.
Great respect to O'Connor for taking part in this conversation.
He holds everyone’s feet to the fire…how uncomfortable for them…🥵
@pattykake7195 Who are you talking about? The only uncomfortable one, the only one stumbling over his same answers was Alex. He cannot take up a faith, he'd lose his fame.
So glad to see this happen. Fr Pine is a saintly priest and Dominican. I’m glad to see Alex branching out to speak to people who are really living out the Christian faith in its fullness.
People trying to live in a delusion .
@@snowflakemelter1172 like the atheistic delusion you mean?
@@snowflakemelter1172no need to insult Alex like that.
@@MrMustang13 childish repetitive reply.
@@snowflakemelter1172 oh and yours was a mature grown up one? Haha I can assure you it was not.
Really enjoyed that last reflection by Fr. Pine
“There are places in the heart that do not yet exist; suffering has to enter in for them to come to be.”
Leon Bloy ..
Amen brother ! 🙏🏾
So you’re saying Eve had to sin to suffer in order to find a place in heart that didn’t exist before when she was made from the rib of Adam?
Why couldn’t God made her with that place in her heart to begin with?
So You’re saying that Gods intention for us was suffering in order to complete our heart ?
@@christopherestrada2474 havent you ever noticed that the best people to have in our lives are those who have suffered who have grown for the better and go on and help others?
Maybe the suffering is needed for our growth we cannot see the whole picture of why this is so, but those who have never struggled just dont seem fully mature
@@christopherestrada2474 Your false and antiquated epicurean paradox confuses suffering and work. Work can be a joy or a torment. The work of Love is joyful creativity. Loving to overcome the void of evil however is excruciating. The willing privation of the good responds with toil, thorns, and death to the work of Love.
"My Father worketh hitherto, and I work" (John 5)
@@julie-anntownley-rivett5173 Why should we reduce suffering then? Shouldn't we increase it?
@@mgacy2957 we do increase it by doing dumb stuff all the time
Fr. Gregory Pine is a living saint before the eyes of all people. We should all inspire to be like Fr. Pine and to do the works of Jesus Christ before us.
He defends a church that robs from teh poor, hides pervy priests from the law, and used to sell indulgences. Nothing to like
This is based on what? Its easy to make generous judgments about people we like when we only see their public persona.
@Paul-s7 You don't need to defend yourself to me. I don't feel as though my comment was malicious, but just realistic. Religious people have a habit of thinking the best of others to their own detriment - how many seemingly kind and gentle people are exposed as wicked? Perhaps I'm just jaded, but I am also tired of peer-glorification based on bias.
@Paul-s7 You know what? Whatever you say! I don't really want to argue.
@Paul-s7 So I just glanced back at your comment - you said I'm hiding behind something? And that I've been hurt, or that I think I'm wise. You don't know me. You're making all these assumptions based on nothing. You are offended by my comment is all. So just admit that. But there's no need to act as though you are trying to establish some good-will dialogue, when you then go in for the personal "attack".
For the record, I have nothing to hide - I have spilled my thought-guts plenty of times to other people, to God, to my diary. I am doing the work on myself to transform myself, something very few people are actually willing to do. And I never claimed to be all-wise and just - that is ridiculous.
Why don't you work out your own internal weaknesses and insecurities before trying to come for me simply because I said to have a bit of caution when glorifying others as saintly.
And unless you're the priest in the video speaking, my original comment had absolutely nothing to do with you, but you somehow made it about you. Tf.
There's 2 faces I didn't expect to see facing each other and God am I here for it!
i'v seen priests in brown robes debating a couple of these youtube atheists before , this one has a white rag on , does it matter ?
we didn't call ''making up gods'' the First Error In philosophy .... just for the fun of it , that was 150+- YEARS AGO NOW ,
out of 10.000+ errors our brain makes on DAILY BASIS , making up gods ... we put at Nr.1 , why IS that , you think ?
a '' god '' will NEVER BE ANYTHING ELSE THEN a delusion , the game HAS BEEN OVER FOR 150+- YEARS ,
the ONLY THING a '' god '' CAN BE AN explanation FOR ... IS ... a delusion ...
every religious person is running after a dead rabbit , in a stadium with NO LIGHTS ON , in the DARKNESS , PURE darkness
we are starved for these kinds of conversations, especially in a society where we are isolated from each other. a conversation must first be charitable and that is how we can truly learn to value the other person regardless if we don’t share their specific perspective(s).
I love this conversation so far. It seems like Alex has a mild misunderstanding of what a person generally experiences in conversion. He often seems to point to people have "one moment" that changes their life, thus he looks back and says, "well, doesn't is seem kinda comedic that it took that one moment to convert a person to the Church? What if they didn't (to use his example) go into that particular library?" Where I this falls short is that the converted person can look back and see all the moments in which God was trying to reach him, through prayer, through another person, etc., in which they rejected God's grace. It is never just one moment, and God does not make it dependent on one moment.
For example, if Alex converts immediately after this interview, it would be ridiculous to suggest "if he didn't converse with Fr. Pine, he wouldn't have converted". He's spent almost his entire rational life studying the philosophy, interviewing theists and nontheists. They were all moments in the story of a man finding Christ, and all the moments previously were building blocks to what happended in the end.
Well, what if he died during the interview even though he was about to convert? He would just go to hell? Doesn't he ask this question?
@@jonny6manBaptism of Desire would be my guess.
@vanatheeveryoung2562 Is that a real teaching from Catholics? As Alex asked, what's the point of any of us going through this life if God already knew what we would choose and we didn't actually have to choose before dying?
@@jonny6man yes we believe Baptism of desire
@@jonny6man what's the point? we dont know what'll happen. we will experience it in a novel way.
This was so wonderful. I am so grateful that you both met and discussed. Fr. Gregory Pine is a treasure, and I have a soft place in my heart for Alex for how much he has sought.
Thank you Fr Pine
Kudos to Alex for always approaching discussions/ debates from a position of intellectual honesty and true humbleness. With respect to Fr. Pine, are we really to believe that if a loving god exists and wants to have relationship with us it requires the kind of mental gymnastics just exhibited? The Jordan Petersonesque linguistic pretzels that sound so lofty but just amount to word salads. Alex asks simple, straight forward, unpretentious questions. Why can't the answers reflect that ?
Alex's questions are indeed good. Fr Pine is more of a speaker than a disputant.
@@fr.hughmackenzie5900 it wasn't a debate per se, Alex is asking questions as a " non-resistant , non- believer". The answers given were PHD level word salads. Fr. Pine, like most Christian apologists, is trying to convince himself as much as anyone else that what he has invested a life's worth of belief in is legitimate. It's the only explanation for responses like that.
@@josephschober4723 in terms of straight answers to straight questions with Alex numerous Catholics have done a lot better. Fr Pine does seem to find it hard to escape PhD level neo-Scholasticism.
@@fr.hughmackenzie5900 to be clear, no shade on Fr. Pine. He seems like a genuinely decent, obviously thoughtful man. The problem for me is the intellectual arrogance required to take the position of explaining a so called" gods" mind. Not to specifically pick on him, but surely he must be thinking to himself as he spines with such lofty explanations that he's really just desperately clinging g to his long held( probably indoctrinated) beliefs. Alex's questions are without agenda really. He's asking these questions on behalf of all non- resistant, non - believers.
Opines(sorry😏)
Hope these two come together again soon. Even as a catholic I felt that I could resonate so much with Alex and his honest searching for a God that cannot be denied
What do you mean by that? There are people who don't believe in the Christian god. So obviously he can be denied.
Well Alex ain't buying it. So I guess he's bound for hell. Which this goof considers eternal punishment in whatever form that takes. Its fucked up guys. Eternal punishment for the crime of non belief.
@@andrewtuff216 Non belief is rejection of the Savior. No Savior, is God supposed to force us to believe? If you think we have a choice to believe or not, then we all have to face the consequences. Eternal punishment never concerns believers. We sleep well. So have it your way.
@@georgekavanagh8220evidently the church program of brainwashing has had great success with you.
@@georgekavanagh8220such a close minded response to justify eternal punishment for "not beliving"
Producer asked the very question that was on my mind. Thanks producer!
This should be a weekly podcast
I remember that debate about lying! Fr Gregory pine you were very brilliant
Loved the cadence and energy of this conversation. Almost soothing. Nice switch up from typical debate. Having said that, Alex is impressive and i stop short at being disappointed because although Greggorys continual inability to answer the majority of Alex’s questions. I’m reminded no one before has been able to. At least Greggorys not answers were done in a graceful and not an unwarranted defensive way. Pleasure listening to both.
As a spiritual director from the Catholic/Orthodox perspective, I am finding myself wishing that Alex was interviewing a spiritual director who could answer these very intimate questions about agency about fairness from the perspective of having worked with many different people, some of whom have profound revelation and some of whom have none.
Not only is there a fairness, but it's not even necessarily an advantage to have profound revelation as it is usually reserved for a certain personality type who is more sensitive and also constitutionally weaker than those who are less sensitive and usually stronger.
If the Holy Spirit comes into a room in a profound way, the sensitive types are going to feel that and experience it at the moment that it happens, but the non-sensitive types won't even notice it and there will be lots of crossover in between. However, in the long-term trajectory of their lives, both groups, depending on the condition of their will and their willingness will receive the same amount of benefit and transformation by those energies from the Holy Spirit.
I don't think there's a single thing wrong with what this Catholic representative says in his answers, but since they chose a more conversational approach, I found myself wishing deeply that Alex was talking to someone who works intimately with multiple people coming to God because there's so much insight from that perspective that would have been useful in this conversation and taken it in a completely different direction.
Fr. Pine’s words were truly brilliant and deeply thoughtful. This was one of the rare instances where Alex seemed a bit uncomfortable-not due to the content or intent, but rather because Fr. Pine’s responses appeared even more thoughtful and intellectually profound than Alex’s questions or counters, which is quite unusual to see. Who would have expected that?
I think he's just embarrassed - verguenza ajena.
It's the Holy Spirit. Alex had a very deep relationship with Jesus. It's probably a better relationship thank be to God
Seriously? I saw the opposite take place. Alex has grown tremendously as an interviewer and an interlocutor. He is just being extremely polite here, even when he seems frustrated when he has to repeat, rephrase, or completely abandon questions when Pine wouldn't (or couldn't) simply answer them. Alex didn't seem uncomfortable at all. He was well within his element.
(Also, it doesn't make sense to say someone's responses were more "intellectually profound" than the question that was asked.. especially when the response doesn't contain an answer to said question.)
@joeylizotte7537 yes, indeed, it's surprising how many people think Pine is being "deep" here - but it is a catholic channel.
@@ritawing1064we can chalk up Alex’s complaints to “if God real, why bad thing happen”. You think that’s impressive?
Love and adore Fr Gregory 🙏🏻❤️🙏🏻❤️🙏🏻❤️
It is a shame that Alex does not pick apart and challenge these long convoluted justifications for the unfair and absurd.
Alex, you got nuts bringing fr pine on your show. Love you both
this guy gives the most convoluted explanations to questions that weren't even asked
Taking after Jordan Peterson I bet
A lot of things in this World don’t have simple answers. Learn to enjoy reasoning and evidence behind answers
@ I enjoy clear answers with solid evidence for the questions being asked. Please learn to enjoy and recognize what a good answer is.
@@ajbriggs "if you can't explain something simply, you don't know it well enough" -Einstein
@@snake1625b Of course we can't explain God simply; if we could, we would be God.
Let's go Fr. Gregory! ❤
Yay! My favourite athiest! Us Catholics love you Alex 😂
@georgekavanagh8220 did I say I love Alex going in the wrong direction or did I say I love Alex? I believe he's actually on exactly the right path. Been watching him for years and he's come a long way.
@@TheYoungCatholics Conversion is an instant act of God to which we react with repentance. There is no one good but God. Romans 10 :20 "I was found by those who not seek me; I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me." Sin blinds us to the light while repentance and forgiveness turns on the light. I'm quite sure you mean well, but stroking his ego won't help him.
@@georgekavanagh8220 He's helped convert a lot of Christians, including me 😊 it's not stroking his ego, I mean it purely out of the goodness and honesty of my heart.
@@TheYoungCatholics I'm sure you are totally sincere. I am a cradle Catholic, first com. confirmed, brown scap, Nine First Fridays and married in the C.C. I was simply a Catholic by culture. Remember, this is only me, but I was not converted until I was encountered directly by God. As Paul, in Galatians said, he did not get the gospel from men. So Charismatics Catholics are close to my position.
@@georgekavanagh8220 I certainly agree with you, my friend. I pray that Alex has that. I try to remember to pray for his conversion when I'm reminded of it.
Alex gratitude and Honor for thy feeding!
I’m 30 minutes in and I realize now that I’m going to have to rewatch this 3 more times to understand it 😅😂
Same here😂
I had the same feeling, but I place the fault on the host and the guest, not on myself.
Maybe because of pines inability to speak in plain english like his interlocutor
Scrambled eggs....
@ theological/philosophical concepts are difficult to explain in few words, of course it’s not “plain English”
As someone who was diagnosed with inattentive adhd as an adult and it’s drastically changed my life being on medication… I take personal offense to my lack of attention/my low resistance to distractions being ALL my fault 😂
It isn't your fault. It is your responsibility.
@@CoolPigeon98 You are addressing a different point than what the above commenter is saying.
@@kaylaempson5788 no I'm not
@@CoolPigeon98 What is the commenter arguing and how does your point refute it?
@kaylaempson5788 there's no argument. Why do you need everything to be an argument?
I had to listen to some of Pines responses twice to intuit all the things he so eloquently didn't say. As always, Alex diplomatically points this out and then let's it go.
Pine came across to me like he was attempting to sound like an intellectual esotericist, in reality of course he sounded like a dickhead spouting complete gobbledygook
Great collab! I've watched a few of Alex's discussions with others , whilst being extremely intelligent he also is naive, some of his arguments come from emotion rather than logic, and security, given his upbringing, education and social class, I can see how these arguments would come to be. The road of life is long when living it ,especially in search of something, and in retrospect it's short given the finite amount of it pinning it against what you have and have found, and to seek truth in whatever way , is a life worth living, an amazingly BLESSED opportunity for someone to be able to do this as Alex does, and talk with those who can offer insights whether for or against a creator, almost feels like Alex is being favoured.
In any case,
The thing that stops atheists etc believing in God is the nature of God, not the idea of God itself, and the agnostic, is emotion.
I see it as he’s just not willing to suspend his intellectual thought in pursuit of something that has given no reason for doing so
Words will only take you so far. If you want to know what a pomegranate tastes like, reading about it, debating about it, quantifying it's mineral content, will never let you know its flavor. You must taste it. Experience it. There are many spiritual paths that will bring you an experience. They take practice, devotion, and sacrifice. A YT video won't cut it.
None of which you have ever done.
@snowflakemelter1172 look everyone ☝️, a troll has revealed his ignorance to the internet.
@@CaptainPhilosophical thanks for proving me right.
However, other people do this for other religions, and would say that they experience their god/gods. What this would show, is that humans are capable of ‘feeling/ experiencing the power of their almighty’ despite it being wrong (either the Christians are correct, or the Hindus etc).
So devoting yourself the way you say could be more dangerous. , if it led to covertig to a different religion.
This would link with what Alex commented on towards the beginning. Westerners would be more likely to ‘try’ Christianity first, and Thais would be more likely to devote themselves to Buddhism first. It seems unfair?
Similarly, how can you personally garuntee that Hinduism/ Buddhism etc isn’t the right path if you haven’t spent time devoting yourself to that religion?
@aidanhazard5529 there are no Gods in the core of teaching of Buddhism , though it's wildly corrupted through different sects and cultures who have added stuff the idea of a God is a delusion created by thought in Buddhism.
Greatest collab of all time
Truly
How quickly we forget peanut butter and jelly.
@@brandonburns5249 I mean your not wrong
Jay z Linkin Park is a decent collab
The reason why it seems to many atheists here that Fr. Pine didn't answer Alex's concerns is because in a sense he did and in a sense he didn't. He didn't answer Alex's concerns in a *direct* way; rather, he answered them often in an *indirect* way (this is also why he may have appeared unclear). This is because, instead of addressing the concerns themselves, he addressed Alex's assumptions/presuppositions that led to Alex's concerns. It is analogous to an atheist stating something like, "The Big Bang doesn't show that the universe began in time. In fact, some physicists suggest models where the universe has always existed in some way. Therefore, it is not necessary to posit a God." The atheist, in this analogy, assumes that the universe always existing is problematic to the theist, but he would be mistaken. So, the theist might, instead of answering the concern directly (i.e., by discussing the temporal origins of the universe), answer it indirectly (i.e., by showing that an always-existing universe still requires a God, so the findings of the physicists on this matter are irrelevant). In addition to this, Fr. Pine used Thomistic terminology and thought without much explanation; to the Thomist, he made complete sense, but, to the atheist, he may have been hard to understand. Much of what he said could've gone over many viewers' heads.
So apologetics?
I appreciate what your pointing out here, and I thinks it's partially true especially later in the podcast. Alex often holds theists to a blanket of beliefs that may not apply fairly. But to the first few questions, Pine was clearly obfuscating. I think he probably realized that Alex isn't so easily distracted, and that these types of answers dont really satisfy a literal question.
In the latter half Pine stops "teaching" and becomes more honest, even saying "i dont know, i think maybe this..." or "one way to look at it is this..." a few times, which is a perfectly acceptable answer to difficult questions.
Alex probably couldve met him half way and adjusted a little bit, seeing that Pine isnt interested in a literal interpretation of every word of Genesis.
Either way both brilliant men, and the conversation definitely got better as it went.
It is only through the grace of God will one believe and convert. We know that logical reasoning alone will not convince an atheist. In a nutshell, Fr. Pine explains that we cannot comprehend God's infinite nature and His reasons for making things the way they are and why things happen the way they do. As Fr. Pine pointed out, what we humans perceive with our finite minds as suffering and injustice is not the same as from God's point of view. I would argue that to say that atheist are not at fault for not believing in God because of God hiddeness is being prideful because that is tantamount to saying I must understand as God does to believe. But to understand as God does means you are God by definition. Atheists insist that unless the infinite can fit into their finite minds, they will not believe. Body language of Alex says it all.
Father Pine is the best at illuminating complex theological and metaphyscal principles.
Don’t try to justify being indirect. Beating around the bush doesn’t get us anywhere. Pine was indirect because he doesn’t want to be demonized by the non Christian audience. There is no open discussion only Pine’s doctrine.
Praying for you Alex❤ I have watched you and admired your intellect for years, but now there is something else, an openness, maturity and wisdom. I hope you feel His love soon
If this guy is supposed to be the rational voice amongst Christian apologists, after watching this I am more fully convinced of atheism
That's your choice.
this has basically been my argument for a decade to family members who say I should find God. Why shouldn't God find me? He's the one who can see through walls and shit
" You are right. God said, "I was found by those who did noe seek me; I declared myself to those who did not ask for me." Roman 10:20
Like literally, just show up and talk to us. Explain yourself and how we ought to go about things. Literally no excuse for god NOT to do that.
@@Unclenate1000 I hated God because he did not protect me from child abuse. I wanted nothing to do with him. I was 31 before he showed up uninvited, and I thought it was schizophenia as I heard a voice. I went from grade nine to two masters degrees. And yet, I had to repent to God who told me in no uncertain terms that he did not abuse me. I had to learn that this life is not fair, it's a test.
@ and you should still want nothing to do with him, if he subjected you to that inexcusable horror. A god whos both omnipotent and knows the future has no reason whatsoever to “test” anyone, and no excuse to “test” people by subjecting them to torture especially in childhood.
@@Unclenate1000 That is precisely as I saw it until he woke me up and showed the reason he allowed the abuse. The reason is more than acceptable to me as the reason Jesus was crucified is acceptable to Jesus. The key is to be willing to suffer for others. Ask yourself, what offense do you hold against God?
Atheists and religious NEED to watch this as to how to properly have this king of discussion if you want to have a positive experience with such an important topic. How brilliant. BTW I’m devout Catholic.
Mr. Pine is a sophist ,he dodged the first question about the Thai people with a bunch of dribble ,I haven't yet finished the discussion but it seems to me he holds a unfalsifiable belief such that NO observation would change his mind and this is opposite to Alex's belief.
@@cristristam9054multiple questions were dodged with flowery language.
To seriously think that the indigenous peoples of Sentinel Island are going to hell because of their own failings to reach Christ is beyond absurd - *beyond*.
@@ghoulish6125 At least she is less of a sophist than most christians and even than the priest in this debate as they usually pass it off as logical(using logical fallacies) ,she at least is close to admitting it is a psychosis by saying it sounds crazy...
My shared "i" Am Gregory! Gratitude and Honor! Ye know already! Love you beloved!
Alex has an even more Christian heart than we Christians. I have never heard him judge anyone for thinking differently. I am convinced that Jesus will consider him a friend because Alex is such a sincere seeker-there are few like him. Without even realizing it, he yearns for Jesus.
So, you understand the yearnings of Alex better than he. Am I to understand you correctly?
@@Theo_Skeptomai That’s how it seems to me-I prefer to see it that way in every person. Maybe I know him a little, because I often think similarly to him. Everyone yearns for love. And our God is love. Whoever loves already knows God.
@MarkoZorecHimself God's love is incredibly powerful....I've felt it.
If Alex keeps on this path of yearning to know I believe he will have an experience to convince him. It's just a matter of time now.
@@MarkoZorecHimself I've loved. I've lost. Now I love again.. and I absolutely love my children unconditionally.
I'm also an Atheist.. so, you're wrong with that one.
@@dexio8601you’ve felt gods love😂 how big was he 8 inches?
Alex is straight to the point and I much as he just want to hear reasonable and clear explainations.
yet we never got them did we..just dancing around the subject
@@davenchop he wasn't dancing around the subject, he was trying to lay the foundation for an answer but failed to connect the concepts
@@DoubleOhSilver hes trying to answer a question he knows has no logical answer.. thats dancing around the subject
Which is something such a god could have and would have just already provided himself, making the very existence of this debate totally unnecessary and unjustified under the assumption that hes real
@@nathaniel5261 You seem to believe that God letting himself be seen will cause us all to follow him. God does not simply want us to see that he exists, even Satan believes that; God wants us to follow him and the trurh is he won't allow us sin. We love our sin more than we love God.
I am a Catholic and just want to compliment Alex since I have watched him a few times and never did he portray arrogance. He is respectful and humble and obviously intelligent.
Indeed which is unusual when it comes to these atheist figure types
It takes a lot of patience to slice and sieve through the circus of words that religious people use to circumvent simple questions.
@ This is what you mean Alex is the opposite of atheist youtube commenters.
Maybe - but unless Alex finds God - when he dies he will be detached from God for all eternity - according to his interlocutor.
@@LPCLASSICAL nah God loves him too much to do that.
A big part of how we build up the numerator is seeking God (to whatever degree is available in our circumstances), using the grace He gives us, asking forgiveness, forgiving others . . . not all just trying to be "good person" on our own to prove we are worthy.
God makes us worthy. We just need to avoid running away, many times.
Fr Pine didn’t really answer any of the questions
20 minutes in, and I am reminded that the purpose of apologetics is not the convincing of the non-Believer to accept the faith, but to attempt to keep the Believer in despite their increasing doubt of the tale they've been told.
Because none of these explanations thus far do anything but restate, apriori that God exists and the way things are are the way he wants them to be. This further requires the starting position that the god under discussion is good, and thus his works are good.
Alot said doesn't fit with both sides except maybe Alex is on the honest view of it all and the priest with words that are usless to billions of Gods People who by average surly wouldn't understand and surly not take half fully educated or the other for granted, for its Gods work to support and not Mans. and this exstreamly Educated Priest fr, workswell with Alex. one thing frustrates an honest person in America of most honest low educated run in the Billions.. the Bible suggest no education and here we have the best educated is as okword as most suggestions demands of the scriptures. it doesn't add up! Faith is used when something can't be answerd. not to the passive faithfull but a honest skeptic needs to be honestly and spiritually given enough to know spiritually only at least once in 1 life time. and unfair or unreal if it can't happen. 2000 years ago 1 didn't believe with evidence of some sort and surly today will make it that much more reasonable and understood to a skeptic why.
I used to not believe (extreme cynic and skeptic) and watch these debates, *subconsciously* desiring to reinforce my reasons for not believing. Although I'm sure I would've claimed to be open minded at that time. It wasn't until I wanted to really understand how, what and why a Christian believes that God opened my eyes to the truth.
John 3:16-20, Proverbs 2:3-5 and James 4:6 enlightens my understanding of what was going on in my heart prior to and leading up to my conversion (in hindsight).
For the record, I think Catholicism is a counterfeit Christianity, not stacking up against the Bible which I now (miraculously) believe to be God's word.
Can't object to that conclusion based on this video. I'm Catholic and it took me two days to get through 58m of this. I'm done.
I thought it was supposed to be _Jesuits_ who never gave anyone a straight answer.
@@inquirerjoe9157 FWIW, we all think we're open-minded, and very few of us are. The best thing we can do is try.
I believe apologetics should start with the position of "IF a God exists and that God is good, is there a logical explanation of the conditions of our world?"
They will have succeeded to the extent that such an explanation is plausible or sensible.
As far as I am concerned if such a God exists, the conditions of the world are such that no one can convince another of His existence, each would have to find out for themselves.
Baptist Deacon here, can’t believe this was posted 8 days ago and I never knew about it! I am thoroughly enjoying this conversation. I follow both of these men. Listening to their thoughts on various topics has deepened my faith over the years and helps me to answer others’ questions more concretely. 👍🏼 I will continue to pray for Alex to come to know Christ.
Then you haven't understood a word that Alex has said. The Dominican ' hard man' priest is saying that some people are destined to go to Hell whatever they do. That's hideous. He also obsfucates and back tracks when Alex points out the absurdity of the Eden myth. Alex has been traumatised in the past by the cruel doctrines of the church, and the priest must know this, yet offers no comfort but instead resorts to pseudo intellectual clap trap which is insulting to a well educated young man like Alex. The doctrine of Hell is utterly obnoxious.
This is my second time listening to this… what a delightful conversation between two brilliant minds. I would love to see these two dialogue for a multi hour conversation and on a series of such topics. Absolutely fascinating. Thanks so much for sharing this with us.
I really enjoy Fr. Pine's dry humor. It keeps you on your toes! These are two very daper and sophisticated gentlemen.
Glad to have listened. My only hope is that we don't all fall prey to the trend to over intellectualize salvation. Glad we have Fr Pine to assist when we do, but hopefully we all acknowledge that there is nothing new under the sun. There are no new questions, only new questioners. Humility is a virtue. We aren't that smart.
There is plenty new under the sun, the intellectual conversations of the past are what formed the modern incarnations of religion today, and continue to inform and shape us over time.
I've always admired Alex for his humility and eloquence. Fr. Pine did a great job, but I wish he'd speak more simply.
I agree I'm a huge fan of Alex and how he converses.
Humility? He is insufferably arrogant
What exactly was insufferable about him here? I found him to be quite charitable and kind. In fact his body language is somewhat guarded, not arrogant.
I like both, but I find humility to be oozing off of Pine. And not so much of Alex. For example, Alex's argument hinges on him doing no wrong as a seeker, while he would never make the claim that psychology as a field supports the idea that we can accurately access ourselves. Pine is hard to understand at times, but that is also because he is very measured and accurate.
To be fair to Alex though, he did asked on a humble way to Fr. Pine what he could have done different . I do not think he argued he did everything perfect in his search for God
God bless you! 🙏❤
That is the most perfect beard I've ever seen.
Which one?
Father Pine’s, I hope.
It's all part of the ' theatre'. He doesn't pretend to know the mind of God, but keeps telling you what God's motives are !
I’m an atheist. I genuinely couldn’t follow or understand most of what Pine said. Maybe that’s why I’m an atheist 🤷♂️ lol
You are not the only one. Pine was very difficult to understand and did not directly answer any of the questions.
Im a catolic, this is the catolic language, you need to be aknowledged of some Dogmas and the catechisis of the church.
This is why i dont like to hear apologetics from priests, as a catolic i get what he is saying but for an ateist or even a luke warm catolic that language is chinese
@@TheRealShrike he did answer all of the questions and with a remarkable wisdom and clarity, i was very impressed by how schooled he is in cristianity theology.
The thing is that he is answering atheistic doubts with Cristian dogmas, Alex or any other atheist could not in any way understand this language.
The problem with Alex here is that he thinks he can be a liberal and a cristian and marry these beliefs, he cant, he either allows his liberal mindset to die or he will always be an atheist. He seems to be so frustated during this whole podcast not having any answer dealt in a way he could understand.
The key here is understanding that Liberalism is a radical concept that puts Humanity in the center of Universe, and puts individual freedom above everything, it is a radical belief for freedom that puts Freedom has an end in itself.
Anyone that wants to leave atheism needs to understand what liberalism his, that its modern roots are the french revolution, the revolution against divine centralised power and autorithy.
Any person that wants to understand the criistian/catolic perspective needs to reject liberalism or atleast understand that the last 3 centuries where a fortification of extreme individualism against divine hierarchy and autorithy.
Alot of Alex questions seem to be just a dificulty in placing moral sense, beetwen this natural view on a humanity below God and this modern world that puts the individual as its own God, this seems to be the main obstruction for atheists to understand the moral code of the Bible.
Anyone who has this doubts and actually wants to convert i advise reading Marcel Lefebre, he explains it in a very Atheistic Friendly language, even though is writhings are for catolics who dont agree with the liberalisation of the church.
Fr Pine language and understanding of things its rooted in catolic tradition, its a language pre french revolution, pre age of liberalism, thus incompreensible to modern men this is to show how much we westerners have been robbed of our identity.
At around 1:12 Alex talks to inheritance of sin that ‘locks’ us out. Catholicism teaches that baptism and reconciliation are sacraments that fully restore grace, placing us back metaphorically speaking ‘inside Eden’. All the locks disappear (to use his analogy) until we, not God, install our own home made new locks - which are removed again at next reconciliation. (I have omitted what is the case for non-Catholics for brevity).
What's the case for non-catholics?
@@j8000 Oh dear - this is a big topic. Let me try this. Whatever the various beliefs there is only one reality. Moslems and Christians can’t be both correct. Jesus said nobody comes to the Father except through him. He also said you can do nothing without him. This is true for every person on the planet whether they know it or not. Catholics have more access to these truths than others, but it is equally true for the Hindu person. So how does this work?
Sin is merely what separates you and the Father. Jesus is the bridge a cross that sin. There is no toll for that bridge. Your faith or trust (or whatever is enough) If you die in sin (most of us) you meet Jesus and this happens regardless of who you are. He has a 1-1 training session with you where are taught the true meaning and depth of God’s love. Most importantly you come to understand that you are worthy of this love. This is not a nice process, it is searing to your soul to feel and understand this love. But 100% of people pass the training session since it is given by Jesus himself. The training session is naturally deeper for those with more sins, and just like gym work that helps you will say “I wish I had not eaten that donut yesterday “. It is of course worth it a trillion times over, but you will naturally wish you started it before you died. If you had not only would this process happen in heaven with Jesus be easier, but life on earth would have been easier and more loving (you can see this clearly now, but you could not on earth due to your pride)
Catholics call this personal 1-1 time with Jesus purgatory. Even most Christians deny it. But as I said above, what is true it true regardless of whether you have heard of it or believe in.
When Jesus died on the cross he descended into Hades and baptised all the souls there - Abraham and Moses and countless millions more. He will do the same for the person who dies today without ever havjng heard his name.
He has all bases covered. Of that I am sure. Exactly how I cannot know for sure.
@@johnsalamito6212 Thank you for taking the time. This sounds like universalism?
"this is not a nice process, it is searing to your soul to feel and understand this love"
Why? The souls were created to understand that love, surely?
"when jesus died on the cross he descended into hades and baptised all the souls there"
How are there any souls in hades if everyone meets jesus when they die? Wouldn't everyone, even pre-linguistic humans from two millions years ago, get the training session and succeed?
@ No I am not a Universalist. People/souls reject Jesus. They condemn themselves to live without him (this is hell) but he always invites them to the wedding feast. Many gospel parables describe this.
@johnsalamito6212 why do souls reject the definitionally good?
I don't find people seeking God, per se. They often realize they want to find truth, which they may seek, while not really wanting to find a God to whom they are accountable.
Personally, God found me when I wasn't seeking him. But the change he caused in me, my thinking and my heart, then caused me to seek him.
John 6:44 and Matthew 11:27 explain this phenomenon.
Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.
My goodness are we blessed to have people like Fr. Pine. Excellent
Lovely conversation.
When the kerygma is be known to you, you have to make a decision to either accept it or deny it. All the best Alex in your search.
I would live to see alex and jimmy Akin in a discussion like this
Sorry the Friar did not answer a single question.
He answerd some questions, just not the ones Alex asked.
Is it possible that you, like myself, just didn't understand his answers? It's naive to assume he just avoided answering them all. Additionally, it is also possible that his answers didn't satisfy Alex's (or your) sensibilities. It is more and more obvious to me that Alex is locked in a modernist materialist frame that prevents him from seeing things from other's point of view.
@@russelllaviolette7515 im a catholic and i didnt see any real answers
@@-latin That still isn't a response to my question.
Alex articulates my own questions about original sin and the arbitrariness of divine revelation so well! These are precisely two of the main reasons why I have slowly drifted away from thinking Christianity is true, atleast in its conventional form.. and I didnt hear anything from Father Pine which was a reasonable answer to those questions.
I would love to take a swing if you want to outline them?
Could you elaborate on what you mean by the "arbitrary" nature of divine revelation?
If arbitrary means "without meaning".
Then any choice made by God is by definition not arbitrary...
As God is meaning itself
Agreed. There has never been good argument or evidence for the existence of god. Faith is not a virtue and belief, especially unwarranted belief, should be questioned.
@@scottymeffz5025 I wouldn't say that there has never been a good argument for God's existence so easily. Maybe the ones you know about don't convince you and that's alright. But it doesn't mean there has never been a good one.
@@scottymeffz5025 the lanciano eucharistic miracle?
The modified Kalam argument?
The argument from first causes?
@RedRoosterRoman I was referring to the fact the geographic distribution of religions in the world. Most people follow a particular religion because of their place and family of birth. Not because of intellectual or spiritual discussions. And then they justify that with subsequent arguments. And the the obvious tribalism which comes with defending "my' religion. Dispassionate pursuit of truth is very rare in my opinion.
Like Alex mentioned, the current reality seems to be better explained by just natural forces in a non Christian world. This is kinda what you would expect in a world where religion is part of the human evolutionary and cultural story. Not a world with an all knowing and loving God.
I understand that there are work arounds for this problem by changing traditional Christian doctrines like hell, need for evangelism and personal belief. I hope something like that is true because I don't want to live in a meaningless Godless universe..
The very reality of divine hiddenness and the fact that this debate even exists already disproves the existence of the all loving god who allegedly wants a relationship with us.
Look at the gospels, all people Jesus healed first asked. Pray for faith every day for a week or two and you will start believing. But then don't give the excuse that you manipulated yourself into a belief.
@ i was devout catholic for like 20 years. I know i was manipulated and manipulated myself to think certain things counted as him “revealing” himself, and i have no reason to think its any different for anyone else.
Also im talking about **actually** showing himself, like he allegedly did to Adam, Abraham etc. so clearly hes able to and has no valid excuse not to.
@@nathaniel5261 thank you for sharing your background. I'm coming back to Catholicism after 16 years and God after 10. What changed my heart was hitting the rock bottom with one of my addictions and realizing I am truly powerless. I hope you find your peace
@ well the point youre making disproves an argument commonly used as an excuse for god’s negligent hiding, so at least you got that going.
No of course we wont be forced, its just that now we’ll actually have the info that we need and can make an actual informed decision rather than essentially guessing based on feelings and hearsay.
The Lord tells us not to judge what is in other people's hearts, what they felt in their hearts we have no access to outside of what the text suggests, which is that they knew it was not what they were told to do, and they did it anyways, and that Adam and Eve both sloughed the blame onto other things and did not take responsibility for their actions.
That they were not "at fault" for disobediance seems to be a projection.
If I look at my own heart, it is obvious to me that I carry the same traits. I know someone told me not to do something, yet I knowingly abrogate it, or keep to it.
Looking closely at the punishments alotted out to the 3 characters, they are the seeds of their redemption.
Man and women learn to be selfless and patient in suffering through them, and the serpant loses his potency to harm us.
Conner says he knows what he would choose now given the choice of a palace and a hovel, and he knows he chooses the hovel.
He seeks the palace narrative to justify itself first, before being able to make that choice. You've skipped ahead, by saying he chose the hovel. He can't choose something he isn't convinced exists, anymore than you could willingly choose to believe in another religion's claims simply because they claim it top down dogma style in their scriptures. You'd seek bottom up data, hopefully. That's what he is doing, and not finding. He's seeking, but not hearing a response. The thing the scripture says to do and will get a response on... So how's he to know it is true if it can't self validate itself via the methods it claims should work? How long do you keep trying something from a guidebook that you can't verify the claims within of, when you do try doing what it says to do, you get no results.
When do we move to the view that continually trying and getting no results would be like using an old science book, thinking miasma was the cause of all diseases, to understand microbiology at that point?
It blows my mind that so many thought this was a good conversation. Fr. PIne dodged the core of just about every issue Alex brought up, but he did so with complex dogma, and reciting of whatever he has been fed through his studies to make it seem as though he somehow had the upper hand. Alex presented himself with great vulnerability and Fr. Pine failed to share in that. It's also very telling that Pine said he never reads the comments in youtube videos because he is too fragile, perhaps his only vulnerable moment. I appreciated this honest statement amongst all the other flowery language but certainly points to the fact that deep down he is a very unresolved man, and rightfully so. If one possesses the ultimate truth of the universe you think they could stand against any voice and not be shattered. I'll publicly thank GOD that I was able to escape the chains of Catholicism. And if there is a heaven, I assure you Alex O'Connor will be sitting in the highest of ranks, as he has the courage to stand in these arenas time after time, and is always met with these impersonal arrogant men, and still remains kind. Damn I just want to give Alex a hug for this. He is more Christ like than ANY theologian I've ever encountered.
Yeah this guys sounds intelligent and uses a lot of lofty words but when I honestly break down in simple terms what he’s saying it’s just the same old dogma with numerous blind spots in the explanation
They both speak with so much grace. I love this duo
Great conversation. I didn't know of Fr. Pine prior to this, but he seems like a great guy.
Ima end up watching this another 10 times
I'm neither Christian (by the modern sense, anyway) nor Atheist, so I have no dog in this fight. However, that being said, I greatly appreciate both Pine and O'Connor's sufficient expression of knowledge, as well as their respect and composure toward one another. This was by far one of the most intriguing and thought-provoking discussion I've heard in a while.
This was frustrating. Alex asked pointed questions and the Pine either refused or was unable to directly address them. He answered like a politician. I sincerely wanted to hear responses to the actual questions.
Timestamp?
agreed
I think Alex's questions were also kinda unfair because Fr Pine does not take a literal interpretation of the text following the catholic caution from St Augustine. It's like Richard Dawkins debate with Peterson where he questioned Peterson on the virgin birth veracity as a truth claim which is irrelevant from the perspective of Peterson as he is not a Christian in the traditional sense but find the outcome of the Christian worldview to be positive.
I hope Alex feels the difference between the interviews he had with Dawkins and Fr. Pines in terms of quality and sensibility and love. I enjoyed every moment of this conversation.
P. I have a feeling that Alex will eventually turn to God bc he is seeking. “Seek and you shall find.”
God is using Alex for a very specific purpose that will eventually be revealed.
Which god though... 🤔
@@grayhalf1854 The one that men did not invent. The one that put Jesus on the cross.
@@ReginaCæliLætarelmao wtf 😂this is bullshit
Wow, still got 20 min to go but kinda blown away/mind blown it’s definitely going over my head a lot but this is amazing in the most literal sense of the word I am amazed. Alex manages to really articulate with great detail and precision and some emotion, though without getting carried away and being rude or crude, the tough questions, real dilemma’s in faith and Fr Gregory Pine does an outstanding job in replying, not necessarily rebutting, not shutting down but answering the questions and listens so well so that the conversation can continue. Bravo both, I really hope Alex enjoys this as much a as I am. Hoping and praying for him, I’ve got huge respect for him, for both of them 👏👏
Keep an eye on your ' still' Bubba.
@ loved it, I reckon there was some honest vulnerability coming through at the end and some respect for it, really highlights the great discussion
I like how Fr. Pine approached the inquisitor's questions from the divine perspective, not a human one.
God's logic is wider and deeper than our common ways of thinking about equality, justice, etc.
You invented a " Gods logic" to try and get around the fact that logical thought fails in your beleif . The same trick as pretending there is another alternative mathematics because your answers are wrong.
@@snowflakemelter1172Nah, OP is spot on
@snowflakemelter1172 if you humble yourself, logic will present itself to you
LoL, so where do you draw your moral and ethical values from since you clearly don't understand your g0ds mysterious ways?❓
@@satoshiumei4622 we always have to do more, it is always our fault, never god's blah blah
Thanks
Does having prisons or even the death penalty, stop people from being bad? I would think that some people would act bad regardless, so why would the knowledge that hell is real, be any different?
Eternity
I'm in agony because Alex is asking all the right questions, and he's getting no direct responses. I'm Roman Catholic, I have no hope of speaking with him but I think I'll treat his questions to a written response and pray he reads it.
Personally, I see a lot of subtle pride centered around "I" and "me". someone from an atheistic background may not find this destructive when seeking God, but what everyone needs to understand is that a lot of lukewarm Christians don't have this divine experience because of pride. Reading books like "little flowers of St Francis can give you an idea of how deep humility can go, or just go and watch the movie "The reluctant saint" and weigh on where you stand in humility before we complain about the divine hiddenness.
It goes along with "turn the other cheek" A clever ploy of the Romans to invent JC as a secret agent, when all they wanted if for the Jews to obey, worship the same gods, and pay their taxes to the empire
Instead of asking God for faith with true humility, they reproach Him for lacking it! They believe that only with their dying reason will they reach God, as if God were an idea that could fit into our small heads...
And we must not think that those who do not have faith in God stop having faith. This faith simply transforms and mutilates itself to adapt to other things, like thinking that reason is sufficient to explain all reality.
I love Fr. Pine! 💯
C.S. Lewis "Great Divorce" is the best illustration of how easy it is to choose hell, even if they know for sure and are currently experiencing hell itself, I've ever read.
Its easy to pursue an intermediate good to a bad end, as an overbearing mother, or a vindictive employee, or a prideful intellect, over an absolute good that will annihilate that position of a distorted good, whether its the nuturing instinct, personal justice, or studiousness and curiosity.
In fact, we do it constantly. God help us.
What absolute goods is a vindictive employee eschewing from?
@j8000 justice
@@wasumyon6147 Can you illustrate with an example?
@j8000 in great divorce, a man's boss comes to apologize for treating his employee badly and tries to get him to follow him to salvation. The employee refuses to go for he believes someone so nasty should not be forgiven so he stays in hell.
@@wasumyon6147 I fail to see the intermediate good, for starters. On your view, he stays in hell - there's no goodness, intermediate or otherwise.
Wether offering forgiveness would constitute an absolute good is also entirely theoretical. Perhaps the boss, shattered by not being forgiven makes a stronger resolution never to cause a similar harm again in the future. Pain aversion is a powerful motivator, and the pain of rejection signs deep.
Ok, to echo Alex here, there are many people who are born into other religions, who live out their entire lives, diligently following the God or Gods they believe in and trying to be good people, and who never once hear about Jesus. How did those people "freely choose against" believing in the right God? I don't think this issue can be written off so easily. Those people were not rejecting God, they were not turning their backs on faith, they were doing everything they could to live the kind of life their religious upbringing taught them to live, they just had the misfortune of being born into the wrong religion. And for that they must be punished? How is that just? How is that the action of a perfectly lovely God who desires a relationship with all of us?
It isn't, because god is imaginary.
To be the opposite voice to the guy above, this would be fairly easy to answer under Catholicism (I have not watched the entire discussion so I’m not sure how Fr. Pine has answered all of Alex’s questions). That’s because God is not the God that is only written in the Bible. What do I mean, you may ask? In Catholicism we don’t adhere to Sola Scriptura-that is, Scripture Alone: Bible Alone. We have traditions, we have the Church passed down by the apostles that God has helped in the past. In our tradition, God doesn’t punish other people for simply being in different religions to Christianity. Concerning people of other religions, this is what the Catechism of the Catholic Church has to say (though fair warning this is lengthy. If you have any questions, shoot them away):
843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."332
844 In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them:
Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair.333
845 To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son's Church. the Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. the Church is "the world reconciled." She is that bark which "in the full sail of the Lord's cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world." According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah's ark, which alone saves from the flood.334
"Outside the Church there is no salvation"
846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337
848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."
@@YTuser2019 and my spiderman comic proves spiderman is true
@@xking21 ? No, that is not a good argument. This is basically an inverse of a bad fundamentalist Christian response to atheists.
Catholics believe in something called "invincible ignorance" in other words we hold that if someone has never heard of God or Christianity he follows the law written upon his heart he will still be saved, we evangelize because it is easier to be saved with the gospel than without
Love you Alex, saying this as a believer, even when you were more of a new atheist, I believe you're the only New atheist skeptic Ive seen that actually makes an effort to have good faith discussions. You being vegan at least back then also made me a fan. Been a 11 year vegan now.
Christians always think people are going out of their way to reject God, and there is always a smugness about it. I have never heard an argument about why there is divine hiddenness that makes any sense.
I am very clear that I went out of my way, for years, to reject God. I didn't want him interfering. As those years are now past, I feel a great humility and no sign whatsoever of smugness toward those who presently reject God. Surely I can't be the only one who is not smug.
They have to do this out of desperation in order to project the problem onto us, in absence of a valid reason for god hiding which as you said they have no good argument for
@@nathaniel5261 It is we who hide from God until he says, Enough Adam, time to come out and fess up. Then all our pretending will end.
Finally a reasonable comment. No superstition, no magic, no nonsense. Rare thing here
Too much gish galloping, he's hardly addressing Alex's questions, more like dancing around.
He literally answers the questions directly and if he didn’t, Alex asks him to clarify, which he does.
@hap1678 not a single question was addressed in a straightforward manner, Alex went too soft on him and had him have his own way.
Nice bait