I think the easiest example I give to explain this is Widowmaker. Sure, a good Widowmaker can have a lot of kills, but think about how many times the enemy team has had a pretty bad Widowmaker, but your Tank still has to shield them off, or your Damage has to keep trying to dive them, or your Supports have to play slowly and carefully behind cover. The threat, even without the damage that shows on the scoreboard, does so much to control your team, making it harder to win.
Which is funny how this works. Because if you play widowmaker at a low enough rank. And your aim is also bad enough. You have to really work hard to gain enough respect in order for your threat to matter. It's weird how, the higher I climb as genji. The more games I find where I can swap to widow. And my presence on widow even with body shots, is sometimes enough to make alot of space. Very interesting dynamic between the players of this game and this character tbh.
mercy is even worse in this new patch with the dps passive, and her entire value pretty much depends on the teams dps. she doesnt have as much carry potential and that sucks :(
@@oogway_hussein and thats exactly the point. Mercy is not that good at healing. Moira, bap, ana, lifeweaver and kiri are all better at keeping people alive...
@@oogway_hussein literally the point of the video, bud. Having a Mercy on doesn't mean your team magically has more skill than red team. If I had a Quarter for everytime some quickplay Cassidy main told me "Play Mercy, I'll carry if you pocket me" and we STILL LOSE, I would be able to buy out Amazon and Tesla.
@@oogway_hussein seriously, having a mercy might mean YOU make it out of the team fights your losing but it wont change the team diff. It's genuinely useless to swap depending on whats actually causing the loss. If red team tank is making constructive use of voice comms and forcing all of your cooldowns while constantly taking space on your supports, you're going to lose with any of the 10 supports on the roster.
I see this ALL the time. Tanks who require both support to healbot them so the tank ends the match with 8 deaths and 26k damage while both dps have like 15 deaths and 15k damage then the tank says "dps diff, I cant do more to carry smh". Not realizing the dps were dying because they received less than prob 2k heals all game.
This is one of the biggest problems in the metal tanks. Especially in this current meta where dps can be so impactful if they get a little bit of healing. But they can’t be effective if the tank is on the brink of death at all times
@Brofessional_ I think it was Samito that said he's discovered that the best way to play tank is to do nothing. He said literally just stand behind cover and occasionally pop out to shoot or use an ability then go back to hiding. He said you take no healing resources and you're impossible to kill. Obviously that's an extremely but I understand what he means. Just let the DPS carry
@@Brofessional_ You are correct but I think the worst thing in the metal ranks are bad dps (this might also be a bias do to being a dps main, that flexes when I play in lower ranks). Don't get me wrong there are a lot of bad tanks and healers also but way more bad dps. If you can't aim why are you playing dps more specificity why are playing a hit scan. They can't hit squishies, they don't know target priority, they are just doing trash dmg, shooting at the tank, they have bad positioning, they don't know when to engage or when to hide, they don't know about map control. Or the 2 things that bother me most is on control maps they will just stand on point after you cap it like that was a tough one, time for cig break. And how often do you see them try to 1v5 the enemy team. They will ether be the last one standing (usually cause they died first and just got back) or the first to engage the enemy alone. They will spam dmg from a corner or something. They will bait their team and the enemy team to the location they are at then dieing after having fed enemy ults. And for some reason during the team fight they will go looking for high ground (which they know to do this for soone reason). While they should be doing that during the reset not during the team fight. Then they are the first to get toxic and act like their trash dmg and tank focus that got them their dmg stat means they are playing great. While being clueless to being the reason the team is losing. Sorry for the rant. counter argument though. If they knew and did these things then they wouldn't be stuck in the lower ranks. Is what it is I guess. I don't know what causes it but it has to be caused by the way you notice things or something. Their Ana sleep darts mercy out of the sky, your Anna misses sleep dart on a tank 3 feet infront if her. Their doom is sever admin controlling the lobby your doom keeps using his abilities right off the map. I play genji and tracer a lot. As soon as I start putting dmg on someone it's immediately being healed. My healer is healing tank to fill before they even look around to see if anyone else needs healing. I'm guessing it's how our brains are wired noticing threats on the enemy team and weak links on your own team. Is my best guess.
Honestly the easiest way to get out of the metal ranks as tank is full support double heals and just carry the game- although I know this is not what youre saying
@@ZER0punkeverything you js said is so real. as a doom main i kinda rely on decent follow ups because my cool downs and primaries are usually being used to hold space and pressure since thats really how doom gets value in this game now. but instead my dps would rather blast orisa instead of simply helping me shoot the lifeweaver and ana thats keeping the horse immortal in the first place. I feel like if ur targeting priority is shit and you dont know how to punish cool down use and coordinate simple follow ups, why are you even playing dps ? and then dont even get me started on the dps that js overall have bad game sense. Like why are you fighting the enemy genji alone as a bastion while pharah rains down missiles on us. The teammates i get make me feel like i am actually stuck in ranks i don’t deserve to be in (im plat 5 tank)
Tracer gets this a lot. The amount of times I’ve heard “we don’t need a tracer rn” while I’m in the back lines with 2 healers and a DPS all chasing me around is crazy. Thank you for spelling this out for people
@bobdole3996 I know, when I first started overwatch years ago I used to sit on heal aura and have like 20k heals per game. I was told I used to swear up and down I should be diamond but my team sucked lol.
the same with tracer, sure i might not always be getting kills but im causing a lot of distraction and forcing big cooldowns to be used from the supports just to keep themselves alive, forcing an ana to scope out and turn around and try and fight me can already open up possibilities for my team. Communication is everything though.
I've won so many games where I was outhealed or out damaged and lost just as many where our numbers all looked better. All the proof I need that stats mean very little
I played a bap game where I did 9.5k dmg and 5k healing. It was like a 10-11 min game. We did win by a nasty margin but by OW statboy logic I’d be throwing vs hard carrying
I've had the same thing happen many times. Where my team has doubled the kills of the other team. Less deaths. But they won. Why? Bc they did something better than we did.
@@AIMLESS-NAMELESS I know, none of us are in ow league, so while I'm trying my best, I'm also not trying with full optimization. He used to be a lot more playable before his burst damage nerf this season. Even so, there's value to be had that isn't junk damage padding.
Sombra is one of the biggest victims to scoreboard fallacies. If I hack an ulting Moira or Sigma, where does that show up on the scoreboard? Sure, they'll have a bit less damage, but, that may be hard to notice. I get complaints all the time that my damage stat is too low when meanwhile I'm in the back line forcing nade and sleep dart so our tank gets to walk for free.
Junkrat I’ve noticed as well. On a 6 game winstreak right now on the hero, and my stats are random/low every game. It’s about who you kill and plays you make. Even deaths, he’s a very suicidal hero, and you might spend 3 deaths attempting to win the fight completely but once it works only get 1-2 important kills, but that’s what you needed
@@Summonick2Well that’s just junkrat. I’d flame you for playing that hero as well because he’s just trash right now. If you’ve won 6 games in a row on him, I’m gonna assume you’re in like silver or gold.
@@justinoliveira3063 so what youre saying is... if someone wins 6 games in a row with a *trash hero* (a hero that you consider is useless) you assume the person is in gold or silver?... that sounds like it makes sense to you?
This is probably the most important misunderstood piece of information about OW2 and it absolutely needs more people talking about it. People actually believe their elims are all kills they did themselves, even tho total elims are wildly higher than total deaths.
I one tricked widow once in OW1 and there was lots of games I would get an opening pick and win the first objective so like 3 enemies would swap and come after me. I would hide in spawn or completely out of range while a lucio, ball and tracer are searching for me while my team wins the next fight 5v2. I would get massively flamed by both teams for getting 1 or 2 elims the entire match but we still win lol. Works up to like diamond, people really can't stand dying to widow for some reason they take it personally.
lmfao yeah, i tend to play widow in QP (trying to get as good as possible before seriously using her in comp) and it's insane how far the enemy team is willing to go to chase you down. just yesterday i had a DVA, reaper, and kiriko constantly leaving the objective and coming after me. it's very flattering to be considered such a threat ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
? How about because widow is a one shot dps. And she’s dangerous? If the widow is shit i may or may not go after her. I’m if shes good i will target her more often since shes more of a threat.
“They take it personally” if anything you take it personally when people targeted you as widow. I see your point except for that last sentence of yours
2:40, had a DVA the other day that ended up doing EXACTLY that, and then was upset at our healers and me as soldier for doing nothing. The healers were doing great, and I was the only one on the team with any actual kills after the first round because our Dva was going in, getting like 2-300 damage and no kills, and only using DM to run away and pick up health packs, zero peeling for supports or trying to dive the enemy supports. I ended that game 13-12, because I had to trade with the enemy DPS every fight. We won because I killed their DPS almost every team fight who was hardcore carrying, while our Sombra took out the supports, but because the Dva only died like 4 times, they blamed me and the others(who all died a minimum of 10 times) for the difficulty, and then thought it was appropriate to say they could coach me and the others, because they were clearly so much better. That's the end of my rant, was pretty tilted lol.
Me too I had a similar situation and that guy had the Gaul to type eeeeeezźzzzzz in chat after what me and my teammates went through because of him... 😑
I think it might be the most useful OW video I've ever seen. After watching this I told myself to start playing without looking even once at stats, and it actually improved everything so much! Instead of judging people on their stats, I had to judge them on their plays, making me simply more aware of everything. Then it's easier to punish enemy targets, and easier to focus on what your allies are doing. It's also so much better to evaluate yourself with what you actually bring to the team, and it's helping a lot to know how to improve. I felt also a lot more joyful and the mentality of enjoying the game helped me to overcome myself in difficult games! I knew already stats meant nothing but it gave me this game-changing idea. I know already it will be the working way for me. I did much more wins in my games thinking like that. Thank you so much!
@@spoopkwagen8574Not looking at stats to have to worry about them = actually having fun with the game now This is why you’re failing at reading class, Billy.
Sombra is another character that can provide a lot of value, that often doesn't get reflected in the stats. I've been bashed by other players for having a lower amount of elims, but I was causing distraction for the other teams support, or killing the Widow over and over, or cancelling out ults.
Sombra is ultimately a rabblerouser. When she's doinf her job right, she keeps the enemy team's attention constantly split between their frontline and their backline, she cancels their abilities, and in the games where she gets the most kills, she heavily punishes uncoordinated teamplay by just picking apart their whole team 1 by 1 like a slasher movie, but that doesn't happen all that often. I also like to think there's a psychological element to sombra as well. People hate invisible lady and often get more irrationally angry dying to her than maybe anyone else on the roster. And when people get tilted, they start to play worse. The way i see it, if you're a bad sombra, they'll take their anger out on you. If you're a good sombra, they'll take their anger out on their team
The stats board is most useful where seeing what I'm doing wrong. Sometimes my teammates stats can be helpful in seeing how I need to adjust my own play - is Kiri only throwing healing so I need to make up for that in some way, is my Ana dying in the double digits and can I mitigate that somehow. But in the end, it's entirely contextual on what is actually happening in each game. Scoreboard has helped me realize things I'm doing wrong. But "high numbers good low numbers bad" is hard for a loooot of players to get over.
The " low deaths = playing well" is one i have heard being misused recently a lot, especially by supports players. Dying first is bad. Dying itself isn't. If your whole team died, and you didn't, that probably means u were sitting passive in the back and not taking space with your team and putting pressure. You essentially threw the fight. Not only that but you might even get staggered, possibly throwing the team fight after that too. Dying WITH your team is fine, sometimes even good.
@@I_Dont_Believe_In_Salad reaper and genji are supposed to be on their off angle by the time the fight starts or a few seconds after, otherwise your team is fighting 4v5 and you're doing nothing. So if the entire team dies while reaper or genji are still pissing about on their flank route, yes it is their fault
Have had soooo many games where the supports are hyper focused on the tank that it was common to wait somewhere between 7-15 sec to get healed. And then the overextending tank goes "danmmm my DPS ain't doing nothing"
I personally obsess over weapon accuracy because there's quite a few times I feel like I should be winning engagements or closing kills, but miss out because I have lower accuracy.
People won't tell you that accuracy is very much dependent on circumstances. Half of your hits are due to you being supported and the enemy making a bad decision, the other half is purely your skill.
@vividao4123 it's hard to avoid looking at accuracy when you can easily compare it to what you see your t500 streamer doing on that same hero and realizing you're less than half as accurate. Lol
I hate how my buddies who one trick moira tell me that as soldier I'm not doing as good since they have more elims or damage. I have like 43 elims and he has 47 and I'm tearing the team down since I'm not good enough.
This video should be shown to everyone below Diamond rank. People think they're playing call of duty and think they're good because they have good numbers... but their team still lost because they didnt fundamentally add a lot of quality value
One thing that could help this is to have a Damage and Health received for the last 10s during death cam, i.e. to differentiate if tank died to burst or died slowly and because healing didn't follow through.
Most people are "toxic" as a coping mechanism for their own lacking gameplay. Why take accountability for missing all your shots when you can just blame someone else?
There was a game where I kept dying as Zenyatta. It was a push map, and we won, but after I took out a couple of players they took it personally and hunted me down. I killed some of them, but as they were two I would inevitably lose one of the fights. One was a tank (Diva) and the other was some damage hero. On the bright side, I kept two people on the other team away from my team, so it was easier for them to win 4 against 3 (and no tank).
@@Watermelon_Man Obviously the person means that "no stats" should apply to everyone, not just themselves. The whole concept of stats on display is a braindead thing for this type of game where value can be had in about 100 different ways that stats dont tell nor teach. In a game like CS, sure. It's straight forward, the primary value indicator is elims, and there are far fewer alternate variables to consider. But in Overwatch it's the exact opposite. It mostly just builds bad habits due to misinterpretation of the stats on display.
Lmao this video just changed how I was seeing stats, this is very interesting. As a flank player I've always felt kinda bad when realising my damage numbers were low, but flankers aren't supposed to deal huge amount of damage, they're supposed to kinda sneak attack exposed or poorly positionned targets and secure a kill quickly enough so said target doesn't get healed. If you're not fast enough and your target gets healed, you'll get more damage, but you just failed doing what you were supposed to. And even if you managed to kill your target despite them being healed, you just gave ultimate charge to both your target and their support
There have been a lot of games that we steamroll the other team where I feel like I did “nothing” but when I think about it you can apply a ton of pressure that doesn’t reflect on the scoreboard. For instance, playing Moira and sucking off the backline will allow your team to push forward and kill the tank and dps (because their supports are occupied and distracted). So even if you don’t end up killing the supports yourself or even if your team doesn’t kill the supports, you still win the fight and you had a large contribution, but you likely won’t have any elims on the scoreboard for it.
if my lucio isnt actively amp speeding me down the enemies throat they are playing lucio wrong, thats why i unironically get upset when i see them constantly yellow like a sad frog :(
3:08 the amount of times I’ve been called bad because I have lower healing than my other support while playing ana even though we are winning is hilarious to me cause all I can think is “congrats on having one of your supports healbot you while I’m trying to put pressure on their cass or Ashe or hanzo, or throwing my nade at the start of a team fight to force abilities like suzu or bap lamp so the dps can try and get a pick easier or the tank can dive in” it’s just frustrating at this point
As a brig main, this video just reasserted my believe in myself. Brig brings soooo much value that doesnt show on the leaderboard, and its so hard having to argue every game with dps/tank that i am bringing value by denying highground and off angles, or by keeping our the widow/ ana alive into tracer sombra.
dont argue turn chat off and climb you and your teams morale is everything but sadly most of the time you cant help teams morale so yours is the most important. Mindset is the key to winning and getting the rank you want
@@ihatethisgamegaminglivestr3509 oh 100% i made an account named BrigOTP and solo q'd to masters with chats muted after being a hardstuck diamond for 3 seasons
I haven't watched the video yet but I lost 2 ranked matches yesterday in games where we out-fragged, out-damaged and out-healed the other team and I was honestly so confused as to how the enemy team pulled off the win.
Spilo: You don't need high healing in bronze.... there's value in discord orb, etc. Yes! I flex all roles with tank being my best. I love playing Ana as support and I hardly ever get high healing but I always make up for it in other areas. Proper nano's, nades, sleeps, etc. had one game on Nepal where I ran from spawn and my tank was dying holding point while our Moira was off dpsing. I turned a corner and instantly nano'd him, naded him, and slept the enemy tank pressuring him. Then pumped him full of vitamins. The result? He didn't die and we went on to win point and the game. It was a pivotal moment. I always say it's not about how much healing you have but rather getting the right heals in at the right time. Moira, Lucio, etc can have massive heals over the game but if it's not there at the right time it won't mean anything.
Stats are incredibly useful to see how teammates are adjusting against swaps and all that. But looking at stats once or twice throughout the game means nothing and can be incredibly hurtful. If a teammate isnt performing well over a couple of fights and we arent doing amazing as a team, that might convince me that I really need to swap in order to make up for what we are lacking. Of course the average player will just take that same info and blame their teammate and call for the teammate to swap.
As a sombra player I can honestly say 50% of my wining games my damage is like 2500 but 12-21 elims. My losing games I end up having more damage cause means they are not dying.
Stats show what the game has processed, not what you have done Widowmaker might have no damage or no elims on the board, because she's creating pressure Many times as a 34/5 genji, I defended my 12/5 widow from being roasted or being told to switch. She didn't get many elims because she was such a threat that I could go in a rampage They couldn't take space because of the widow. The fear of the one shot allowed me to dive in and out, because my widow was creating such a safezone
I love this! I'm an aggressive Sombra that has been shooting up my ranks the past 3 seasons, but my stats have been up and down. Of course, sometimes I can tell I'm just playing poorly, but I AM consistently winning. This helps explain a lot!
The worst one is Assists. Moira gets assists if anybody she is healing gets a kill. No other support does that except Moira for some reason (except Illari with her secondary fire only)
@@jimrouge3437 It's absolutely not all supports (if you mean getting assists via healing). I know for a certainty that Kiriko and Ana do not get it from healing. Ana must Sleep or Nade the victim, or Nano Boost somebody who got an Elim. Kiriko gets them from kills within a time from Suzu hit and any Elim earned from a player who dealt damage within Kitsune Rush They both have voice lines for assists (Kiriko says "The Kitsune gains new champions" and Ana says "You're welcome")
@@kasm7870 The enemy has to die as you are actively healing, and you will get the assist with any support. I play Brig a bit, and I get tons of assists from my repair packs and inspire.
Im high silver/low gold and as a mercy main I was getting worried that me and the other support getting even numbers (had a round where both me and our ana had 22k heals) meant I wasn't doing enough, BUT that ana healing allowed me to get more damage boosted. This video definitely made me feel better about my support gameplay lol
For me it's always funny when people say you are useless as Rein when they fail to recognize all the time you spent giving them a safe angle to shoot from. Being a moving wall for them to advance and fail to see that Rein while can be good at being aggressive though can be equally useful in just being a staging point to attack.
I think the two major criterias to judge the value of your actions is through conversion and efficiency with conversion meaning that you turn your enemy's advantage or strength into a disadvantage. It's most obviously seen in how your positioning can turn an enemy's position against them and vice versa. Consistent positive conversion (actions that consistently turn the tides in your favor) and high efficiency are only achievable with good teamwork so the real game is trying to figure out what actions allow your team to win with the lowest numbers on the board.
10:40 I climbed out of low silver to diamond with just zen by not wasting trans. I cant remember what I watched that convinced me to hold on to his ult more but that alone was a drastic shift in my win rate after being stuck in silver for a many seasons the rest being building trans faster.
I can remember a few instances where me and my buddy duo-ed on dps (mid plat) and got flamed by our tank because we were “throwing”. Meanwhile our tank is flying into the back line to chase the enemy Kiriko or Mercy with both of our supports rushing right behind them pumping everything they’ve got into them while we’re left to 2 v 3-4 their tank, dps, and possibly a support.
I’ve noticed if I don’t jump to conclusions about my team they usually bounce back and give full effort, be patient and don’t be negative it’s immature and just loses games.
This so much. I'm so sick of being flamed over average healing or below average damage output despite my kill participation and deaths being far better than the other supports
Exactly! This was the same problem with medals. People just use them to cope and flame. I was happy when they got rid of medals just to be disappointed to find they replaced it with the stat board.
9:52 I understand certain characters have separate values, but at the end of the day if the tank is dying in 2 seconds because we have a lucio and a zen, just because those characters give value doesn't mean it's helping us win the game. at some point people need to accept that swapping picks is a better choice instead of berating your team for "not making use of your benefits" or even worse, insisting the TANK swaps to make better use of your abilities, which is just the exact same thing. Characters have their benefits, don't berate your team because you think your team isn't using them when at the end of the day you're just not providing enough SURVIVABILITY to the team.
The GOAT of Overwatch 2 content. I feel like I am wasting my time watching other content creators when the best takes are always here. Hope you continue and great to see you going to summits and making appearances on Group Up.
Moira main from OW1, it was common to end up with 5 gold medals. It's really hard to learn her character because the game doesn't really give feedback on how effective every point of healing and damage actually is, even if you're doing a lot of both.
What would be helpful is show the individual stats of every hero for everyone. But that's going to be a mess on the UI. Maybe putting the mouse on hover every hero can be displayed. That's will be really helpful
To me this is one of the most important things I would like people to understand. I find it can feed into bad play. The amount of times I see a DPS just farming some meaningless damage and then continues to die needlessly because of it. Or support overhealing (and not doing something that is really needed at that moment) since they are only thinking about having top healing. And the worst part is that they think they played well and not improve.
I'm a Reaper main and have higher than average deaths per 10 on Reaper (Think I'm currently on around 8 per 10) but I also hard carry nearly every game I'm on Reaper because I make every death count. I Was stuck in Gold and had a game when matchmaking was broken in early Overwatch 2 in which there was one GM player and one Master player on my team that were in a duo together and they asked me my rank middle of the match; they were shocked when I said I was Gold 3, and said that by the way I play (they mentioned various aspects of my play), they just assumed I was a Master or GM player like them. This encouraged me to do a total mindset shift, start trusting in my own ability way more, and within roughly two weeks I had hit Master for the first time. I managed to get to Master 3, which is my highest so far, but sadly I suffer pretty badly from anxiety disorder which can often affect my gameplay, and I had to take a break around hitting Master 3 as the anxiety was making my games more difficult than they should be (I get light headedness and struggle to breathe, heart palpitations, all that kinda stuff). Yesterday I was queued for a match with a 5 stack I'd found in the Overwatch 2 LFG, and while we were doing deathmatch while waiting for a game, some guy tried to insult my skill by saying "I hate Reaper players, he's such a low skill hero." He said this because I killed him as Reaper with ease; he was on Widow (which is supposed to be a hard counter to Reaper, right??). While I can obviously accept that Reaper is not as mechanically intensive as certain heroes, I still believe he does have a bigger degree of mechanical intensity than most people recognize and give him credit for, because no matter what anyone thinks, you cannot play Reaper and get value unless you have decent aim skills at a minimum. whilst also requiring waaaay more gamesense and positioning skill than a lot of other heroes. You also need to be great at mindgames to play Reaper, and know how to abuse the decisions that the enemy team will make. Anyway, I asked this guy his rank after he wasn't listening to a word I said, and he said that he'd played OW for 6 years and was a professional player, and used that as his ammo to try and talk down shit to me, calling me "washed" and saying I was "talking out of my ass," all whilst refusing to simply prove to me that he was a pro player, because apparently there was no point. I have a montage of my Reaper gameplay on my channel, if anyone would like to see how I play.
I wish we could get a comprehensive after stat. Like how much you healed each player on what hero or damaged. Or how much beam downtime there is. (Mercy, we have beam dmgbst vs healing but it doesnt show how much its disconnected) etc. Those are far more useful. ETA: I wish replays could be exported/saved and also it added timestamps. (From deaths/ etc.) To make it easier to find. Yes, healing recieved, or resources recieved and given could be so useful! So you can determine how well you did based on how much resource you were given. If it was better, worse, expected.
Im still learning that the scoreboard means basically nothing and its hard to not instantly go to that to see how good or bad im going (i used to be gold 2 seasons ago hit diamond this season and last season)
I just played a game yesterday as Kiriko where I went and off angled spamming kunai, forced cooldowns, and distracted, and immediately get flamed because my healing is less than Lucio's who hasn't gotten off heal aura, is standing still behind the tank, and hasn't gotten more than 3 meters off the ground. I wish I could share this video with my ranked teammates.
I had a game where the enemy team had better stats than my team including, myself yet we still won. 💀 and from that point on even though i already was...i didn't take the game seriously anymore. This just amped it up to 12 💀
10:00 I am a lucio otp in metal ranks and I can heavily relate to that. I usually average around like 70% speed boost 30% healing each match and yet my teammates blame me for not healing enough even though lucio isn't a main healer. I want to learn to play more aggressively and "feed" more and learn when I should play aggressively and passively. They tell me to swap when we are losing and I can't swap either way because I don't know how to play any other support correctly. I've spent a lot of time learning his wall riding mechanics and stuff.
The thing I hate the most that ppl always says. Is Tank, DPS, or Support Diff. And they are morons. I feel you. Stats never tell the full truth. Totally agree.
One of the most frequent question is, "Do stats affect my rank?" and of course the game has to be such that the answer is no. You could get lots of big numbers in your stats and still lose the match - if your rank goes up because of the stats, what does that mean for the game? It means that the real objective is the stats. Pushing the payload further is no longer the objective. Whatever it is that affects your rank, _that_ is the objective of the game. If you want the objective of the game to be to push the payload further than the opponent, then by necessity you must agree that stats cannot affect your rank.
Speaking about self-healing in one game I had a support player using Moira was so little healing that I managed to get more healing then that player using Sombra
" I didn't die" said the Sombra with 3 elims. I am currently gold support (peaked at diamond in ow1 came back after 6 years away) the amount of times I'm getting asked to switch of zen cuz my heals are low is crazy. How can yous till not understand how an original character works 8 years after release
It's interesting knowing how the game properly works can make you have a higher self-esteem, someone that's on low ranks might get bashed on by his teammates for not healing or doing enough damage, maybe they were actually the best player in the team but they don't realize it and believe their teammates and get sad over it.
Sitting back line with 76 shooitng raking up dmg while the opponent has a healer behind the corner healing them constantly . N when we finally push they keep wondering why lucio n zen always have they ults n we cant win the push
Just tried explaining this to my torbjourn who had 7 kills to my 6 kills while I was playing Ashe into triple flyers… while he was shooting shields, giving the opponents supports ult charge, and letting the opposing mercy for free. He switched to soldier with 30 seconds left… Simultaneously I had two 60+ kill games yesterday and I know damn well every game I can pop off like that it’s because my tank and supports are enabling me
This video should be required watching for anyone queueing Overwatch. Everyone always says out loud, stats don’t matter, but this takes it to such a deeper, specific level. It seems like literally almost every game you play in comp, there’s people trying to justify their opinion, or justify their play style, or justify their comments, based on stats. It can be so infuriating, because it is such a simple-minded approach. How many games have you played where some douche says “you are ___ and ___ (insert whatever applicable stats they might reference), stop talking!” Or shit like ‘wow only 5k healing is insane’ or WHATEVER the comment is. I hear it constantly, but yet, don’t waste your time ever trying to explain any of this to anyone. It’s half the frustration in playing Overwatch, honestly. The subject and content of this video is such an overlooked yet important part of the game, I just wish more people could understand these concepts, it would cut down on a lot of the frustration in the game. At least for me.
Stats don’t dictate whether you will lose or win a game. However, stats do reflect why you won or lost a game. If I’m playing tank and see my dps have triple my deaths then I know why the game felt miserable. Or if I see my supports lock Moira Mercy and both just heal bot while the other team goes Zen Brig or zen Lucio. You can have as high of a healing stat as you want supports with no impactful buttons loses to supports with impactful button 9 times outta 10. Knowing how to read the scoreboard is the difference between someone with a brain and someone without one.
Might be better to just have an integer because some characters heal themselves and okay Hog did X% of Heals Rec but was literally never healed by Supports. I think we want to know if we're being healed by teamates.
In high plat right now and some games my team cares more about numbers than winning. We will be winning the game and playing well but the team will still ask everyone to swap because we have 2k less damage or heals
I quit this game years ago but I'm glad somebody is bring up the subtle arguments for me. I think competitive games should remove stats and potg. The team can decide who got the value, the game only conflicts with reality and tries to "social justice warrior" a fake narrative to drive engagement real money purchases.
My proudest matches were when I win despite getting completely hard countered on Winston and my stats looking absolutely trash compared to the enemy tank. My DPS call me useless but really I baited out all the pressure of the enemy team and created a gigantic amount of space for you.
11:14 though usually low deaths for support, if you are not simply hiding is considered a good thing, no? Normally when I see that the team fight is lost I need to be spamming retreat for that single tank or dps that has no peripheral vision and keeps fighting 1v5 as if nothing happened. When I see there is simply no hope of winning I already planned my retreat and changed angles, meanwhile my teamates, most of the time keep pushing and overextending (specially when playing with friends).
i play with like a 2.5kd and 8-10 deaths/10 i constantly get flamed but in the end i still get to top500 with like a 70-80% winrate or two seasons ago i had a 60% winrate on sym (in gm1) while going negative every second game sadly scoreboard doesnt show that you forced anti nade, suzu, lamp, the attention of 2-3 players at a critical moment, etc... so while playing safe definitely has merrit, inting at the right time and forcing a lot of enemy resources also does
This is hapen when i play mauga. I do a ton of damage, but in the end dont matter, becuase if my damage dont stay with me and termine to kill the enemy, my damage dont worth
Kinda make sense I notice I’ll play Winston , I’ll go in and die after a good fight and my team still wins engagement , prob because there team burned a bunch of abilities protecting there team against me
I think stats are still useful as I use them to help pinpoint what I'm doing wrong as I'm playing (watching replays is obviously far more accurate, but by then it's too late), they're not definitive, but still indicative towards what are the largest mistakes being made.
I do agree but if your stats aren't just low they're borderline throwing then there is room to suggest an issue. I.e. if it's like Tank - 3 Elims, 11 Deaths, 2400 Damage DPS1 - 21 Elims, 8 Deaths, 8900 Damage DPS2 - 28 Elims, 6 Deaths, 11400 Damage Sup1 - 0 Elims, 4 Deaths, 100 Damage, 12000 Healing Sup2 - 17 Elims, 7 Deaths, 6400 Damage, 8500 Healing You could argue maybe the supports didn't heal the tank? But even a "Feeding" tank or a "Not Playing Well" tank can get more then 2400 damage and 3 elims. So this person likely doesn't belong in this lobby or is having an incredibly off day. Same if we swapped Sup2 to lets say 8 Elims, 13 Deaths, 4900 Damage, 1400 Healing Now we could say this support is doing nothing but dying too much and just dpsing so here's where stats can tell a story but in many cases i agree they are very useless to judge a full teams impact or why one team won and another loss. Its also still first and foremost an objective game and the only fights that really matter is the ones that win you the important points of the map. I.e. winning 5 fights on a hybrid map only to lose the 6th fight still means the team won in the end to cap the initial point. So then if they can the 1st and 2nd checkpoints with almost no slow down on payload but in total you lost 3 fights then in total your team lost 4 fights and enemy team lost 5 the scoreboard will look like your team did better but they end with 2 minutes on the clock. Where when you go to push in your team caps the first point instantly so wins 1 fight, but then are stalled sacrificing even #'s from both team and go into overtime for 1st cap, eventually push through and then overtime for final point. Looking at scoreboard it "feels" even but now your team is defending for a "Draw". in the 2 minutes your team wins 3 fights and then it's a very long overtime with another 1.5 fights won and eventually you lose, but looking at scoreboard your team had almost 2x the stats. You just didn't win where it mattered and didn't play objectives well enough. Imo a few things the leaderboard needs Final Blows - Regardless of how much damage you put in the person getting the final blow is more impactful then the person who assisted the kill. Many times someone can deal 95% of the damage and never finish. So if anyone on the team finishes the kill they are more valuable then the person who did the 95% damage. Elimination renamed to "Damage Assists" any time some form of damage was put into an enemy and that enemy died but was not killed by your damage. Assists renamed to "Supportive Assists" any time an ability or healing saved or assisted another player in living or killing someone that is not damage related in itself. Objective Assists - any time you're on the objective or assist with a kill on objective This can be done as Assists(#/#/#) as well. LOS Of Enemy % - I think this would be a cool statistic to know how often a player is in line of sight of enemies and how often they're just hiding in corners. So if you see someone with 0 Deaths and like 5% LOS you know they aren't participating in the match. But if you see they have like 80% LOS and 18 Deaths you can probably suggest they are feeding a lot. Damage with a (%/%/%) i.e. Damage 11400 (52/28/20) to see how the % splits are. so like that split would be okay, but if you saw (84/13/3) well then you can see this person was just farming damage or hyperfocused on tank and in many cases you want to kill the dps or support if they are singled out or in a vulnerable position with no abilities. Healing with a (%/%) no we won't share who got the healing because not all characters can easily control those situations and you not getting healing isn't always the supports fault. But having two %'s will be nice to show "Team Healing vs Self Healing" %'s I think a leaderboard like this would be more impactful in understanding what went wrong with your team but it will never be a perfect solution just more informative. I'd also be okay with information being "Basic" in match and more in-depth post match when you look at the game afterwards so you can figure out more deeply what went wrong in a match once it's over and review your own games. It would assist a lot in Code Reviews as well.
I had a game a few days ago. Push map, my team had half the stats of the other team (damage, healing, everything) and we steamrolled them. Stats are just nice things to see but really don't paint the whole story.
I think the easiest example I give to explain this is Widowmaker. Sure, a good Widowmaker can have a lot of kills, but think about how many times the enemy team has had a pretty bad Widowmaker, but your Tank still has to shield them off, or your Damage has to keep trying to dive them, or your Supports have to play slowly and carefully behind cover. The threat, even without the damage that shows on the scoreboard, does so much to control your team, making it harder to win.
Swear dude, it so fucking frustrating when a mediocre widowmaker can hit 1/10 shots and still change the flow of the match so heavily.
As widow I can be behind on damage and kills but still be doing well imo because during a few team fights I got multiple solo kills.
Which is funny how this works. Because if you play widowmaker at a low enough rank. And your aim is also bad enough. You have to really work hard to gain enough respect in order for your threat to matter.
It's weird how, the higher I climb as genji. The more games I find where I can swap to widow. And my presence on widow even with body shots, is sometimes enough to make alot of space. Very interesting dynamic between the players of this game and this character tbh.
Oftentimes I can play widowmaker and see the effect I'm having on the fight, without even taking a shot
@@commentbot9510especially if you get the kills during ult fights. Waste ults and teamkill.
"We need more healing, go mercy." Makes me wanna scream
mercy is even worse in this new patch with the dps passive, and her entire value pretty much depends on the teams dps. she doesnt have as much carry potential and that sucks :(
Just go mercy, I don't want to die
@@oogway_hussein and thats exactly the point. Mercy is not that good at healing. Moira, bap, ana, lifeweaver and kiri are all better at keeping people alive...
@@oogway_hussein literally the point of the video, bud. Having a Mercy on doesn't mean your team magically has more skill than red team. If I had a Quarter for everytime some quickplay Cassidy main told me "Play Mercy, I'll carry if you pocket me" and we STILL LOSE, I would be able to buy out Amazon and Tesla.
@@oogway_hussein seriously, having a mercy might mean YOU make it out of the team fights your losing but it wont change the team diff. It's genuinely useless to swap depending on whats actually causing the loss. If red team tank is making constructive use of voice comms and forcing all of your cooldowns while constantly taking space on your supports, you're going to lose with any of the 10 supports on the roster.
I see this ALL the time. Tanks who require both support to healbot them so the tank ends the match with 8 deaths and 26k damage while both dps have like 15 deaths and 15k damage then the tank says "dps diff, I cant do more to carry smh". Not realizing the dps were dying because they received less than prob 2k heals all game.
This is one of the biggest problems in the metal tanks. Especially in this current meta where dps can be so impactful if they get a little bit of healing. But they can’t be effective if the tank is on the brink of death at all times
@Brofessional_ I think it was Samito that said he's discovered that the best way to play tank is to do nothing. He said literally just stand behind cover and occasionally pop out to shoot or use an ability then go back to hiding. He said you take no healing resources and you're impossible to kill.
Obviously that's an extremely but I understand what he means. Just let the DPS carry
@@Brofessional_ You are correct but I think the worst thing in the metal ranks are bad dps (this might also be a bias do to being a dps main, that flexes when I play in lower ranks). Don't get me wrong there are a lot of bad tanks and healers also but way more bad dps. If you can't aim why are you playing dps more specificity why are playing a hit scan. They can't hit squishies, they don't know target priority, they are just doing trash dmg, shooting at the tank, they have bad positioning, they don't know when to engage or when to hide, they don't know about map control. Or the 2 things that bother me most is on control maps they will just stand on point after you cap it like that was a tough one, time for cig break. And how often do you see them try to 1v5 the enemy team. They will ether be the last one standing (usually cause they died first and just got back) or the first to engage the enemy alone. They will spam dmg from a corner or something. They will bait their team and the enemy team to the location they are at then dieing after having fed enemy ults. And for some reason during the team fight they will go looking for high ground (which they know to do this for soone reason). While they should be doing that during the reset not during the team fight. Then they are the first to get toxic and act like their trash dmg and tank focus that got them their dmg stat means they are playing great. While being clueless to being the reason the team is losing. Sorry for the rant.
counter argument though. If they knew and did these things then they wouldn't be stuck in the lower ranks. Is what it is I guess.
I don't know what causes it but it has to be caused by the way you notice things or something. Their Ana sleep darts mercy out of the sky, your Anna misses sleep dart on a tank 3 feet infront if her. Their doom is sever admin controlling the lobby your doom keeps using his abilities right off the map. I play genji and tracer a lot. As soon as I start putting dmg on someone it's immediately being healed. My healer is healing tank to fill before they even look around to see if anyone else needs healing. I'm guessing it's how our brains are wired noticing threats on the enemy team and weak links on your own team. Is my best guess.
Honestly the easiest way to get out of the metal ranks as tank is full support double heals and just carry the game- although I know this is not what youre saying
@@ZER0punkeverything you js said is so real. as a doom main i kinda rely on decent follow ups because my cool downs and primaries are usually being used to hold space and pressure since thats really how doom gets value in this game now. but instead my dps would rather blast orisa instead of simply helping me shoot the lifeweaver and ana thats keeping the horse immortal in the first place. I feel like if ur targeting priority is shit and you dont know how to punish cool down use and coordinate simple follow ups, why are you even playing dps ? and then dont even get me started on the dps that js overall have bad game sense. Like why are you fighting the enemy genji alone as a bastion while pharah rains down missiles on us. The teammates i get make me feel like i am actually stuck in ranks i don’t deserve to be in (im plat 5 tank)
Tracer gets this a lot. The amount of times I’ve heard “we don’t need a tracer rn” while I’m in the back lines with 2 healers and a DPS all chasing me around is crazy. Thank you for spelling this out for people
a good example is lucio. lucios value comes from speed, boops, peeling, distraction, etc. stats dont track any of that.
I've been reported for throwing on lucio because my heals per 10 min were like 5k
@@tgs5725I've got LW's doing 5k per 10. You're doing just fine 😂
@tgs5725 low rank lucios give bad image to good lucio players. Lucio at low ranks be having high healing stats.
@bobdole3996 I know, when I first started overwatch years ago I used to sit on heal aura and have like 20k heals per game. I was told I used to swear up and down I should be diamond but my team sucked lol.
the same with tracer, sure i might not always be getting kills but im causing a lot of distraction and forcing big cooldowns to be used from the supports just to keep themselves alive, forcing an ana to scope out and turn around and try and fight me can already open up possibilities for my team. Communication is everything though.
I've won so many games where I was outhealed or out damaged and lost just as many where our numbers all looked better. All the proof I need that stats mean very little
I played a bap game where I did 9.5k dmg and 5k healing. It was like a 10-11 min game. We did win by a nasty margin but by OW statboy logic I’d be throwing vs hard carrying
Stat padding in overwatch means nothing. Back in overwatch 1 "you guys suck I have gold damage" was such a meme
@triantulas a dev literally said stats don't matter in their competitive algorithm recently in an ml7 interview thing
Hit 32k healing yesterday on role q ranked. Do you think I won? Not a chance
I've had the same thing happen many times. Where my team has doubled the kills of the other team. Less deaths. But they won. Why? Bc they did something better than we did.
"Bro you're Junkrat with the lowest damage"
"One trick with a 50% win rate"
“Bro your junkrat” :p that hero sucks
@@AIMLESS-NAMELESS I know, none of us are in ow league, so while I'm trying my best, I'm also not trying with full optimization. He used to be a lot more playable before his burst damage nerf this season. Even so, there's value to be had that isn't junk damage padding.
Burst damage nerf and health increase is crazy
junkrat is a throw
@@AIMLESS-NAMELESSbro.. he spelt out the correct "you're" and you still somehow got it wrong... 🤦
Sombra is one of the biggest victims to scoreboard fallacies. If I hack an ulting Moira or Sigma, where does that show up on the scoreboard? Sure, they'll have a bit less damage, but, that may be hard to notice. I get complaints all the time that my damage stat is too low when meanwhile I'm in the back line forcing nade and sleep dart so our tank gets to walk for free.
Junkrat I’ve noticed as well. On a 6 game winstreak right now on the hero, and my stats are random/low every game. It’s about who you kill and plays you make. Even deaths, he’s a very suicidal hero, and you might spend 3 deaths attempting to win the fight completely but once it works only get 1-2 important kills, but that’s what you needed
@@Summonick2Well that’s just junkrat. I’d flame you for playing that hero as well because he’s just trash right now. If you’ve won 6 games in a row on him, I’m gonna assume you’re in like silver or gold.
@@justinoliveira3063 flaming randoms for picking an off meta hero isnt the flex you think it is lol, youre just being a jerk
@@justinoliveira3063 so what youre saying is... if someone wins 6 games in a row with a *trash hero* (a hero that you consider is useless) you assume the person is in gold or silver?... that sounds like it makes sense to you?
@@justinoliveira3063 I would assume that I wouldn't play with you, so much toxicity
This is probably the most important misunderstood piece of information about OW2 and it absolutely needs more people talking about it. People actually believe their elims are all kills they did themselves, even tho total elims are wildly higher than total deaths.
I one tricked widow once in OW1 and there was lots of games I would get an opening pick and win the first objective so like 3 enemies would swap and come after me. I would hide in spawn or completely out of range while a lucio, ball and tracer are searching for me while my team wins the next fight 5v2. I would get massively flamed by both teams for getting 1 or 2 elims the entire match but we still win lol. Works up to like diamond, people really can't stand dying to widow for some reason they take it personally.
lmfao yeah, i tend to play widow in QP (trying to get as good as possible before seriously using her in comp) and it's insane how far the enemy team is willing to go to chase you down. just yesterday i had a DVA, reaper, and kiriko constantly leaving the objective and coming after me. it's very flattering to be considered such a threat ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
? How about because widow is a one shot dps. And she’s dangerous? If the widow is shit i may or may not go after her. I’m if shes good i will target her more often since shes more of a threat.
“They take it personally” if anything you take it personally when people targeted you as widow. I see your point except for that last sentence of yours
@@GhostWhatcher see I wish I had more good widowmakers to play brig with, its always a delight
2:40, had a DVA the other day that ended up doing EXACTLY that, and then was upset at our healers and me as soldier for doing nothing. The healers were doing great, and I was the only one on the team with any actual kills after the first round because our Dva was going in, getting like 2-300 damage and no kills, and only using DM to run away and pick up health packs, zero peeling for supports or trying to dive the enemy supports. I ended that game 13-12, because I had to trade with the enemy DPS every fight. We won because I killed their DPS almost every team fight who was hardcore carrying, while our Sombra took out the supports, but because the Dva only died like 4 times, they blamed me and the others(who all died a minimum of 10 times) for the difficulty, and then thought it was appropriate to say they could coach me and the others, because they were clearly so much better. That's the end of my rant, was pretty tilted lol.
Me too I had a similar situation and that guy had the Gaul to type eeeeeezźzzzzz in chat after what me and my teammates went through because of him... 😑
I think it might be the most useful OW video I've ever seen.
After watching this I told myself to start playing without looking even once at stats, and it actually improved everything so much!
Instead of judging people on their stats, I had to judge them on their plays, making me simply more aware of everything.
Then it's easier to punish enemy targets, and easier to focus on what your allies are doing.
It's also so much better to evaluate yourself with what you actually bring to the team, and it's helping a lot to know how to improve.
I felt also a lot more joyful and the mentality of enjoying the game helped me to overcome myself in difficult games!
I knew already stats meant nothing but it gave me this game-changing idea. I know already it will be the working way for me. I did much more wins in my games thinking like that. Thank you so much!
TLDR
@@spoopkwagen8574 it's ok :)
@@spoopkwagen8574 Do you not have the attention span to read like 12 sentences
@@spoopkwagen8574Not looking at stats to have to worry about them = actually having fun with the game now
This is why you’re failing at reading class, Billy.
Sombra is another character that can provide a lot of value, that often doesn't get reflected in the stats. I've been bashed by other players for having a lower amount of elims, but I was causing distraction for the other teams support, or killing the Widow over and over, or cancelling out ults.
Sombra is ultimately a rabblerouser. When she's doinf her job right, she keeps the enemy team's attention constantly split between their frontline and their backline, she cancels their abilities, and in the games where she gets the most kills, she heavily punishes uncoordinated teamplay by just picking apart their whole team 1 by 1 like a slasher movie, but that doesn't happen all that often.
I also like to think there's a psychological element to sombra as well. People hate invisible lady and often get more irrationally angry dying to her than maybe anyone else on the roster. And when people get tilted, they start to play worse. The way i see it, if you're a bad sombra, they'll take their anger out on you. If you're a good sombra, they'll take their anger out on their team
The stats board is most useful where seeing what I'm doing wrong. Sometimes my teammates stats can be helpful in seeing how I need to adjust my own play - is Kiri only throwing healing so I need to make up for that in some way, is my Ana dying in the double digits and can I mitigate that somehow. But in the end, it's entirely contextual on what is actually happening in each game. Scoreboard has helped me realize things I'm doing wrong. But "high numbers good low numbers bad" is hard for a loooot of players to get over.
I agree with you on that
The " low deaths = playing well" is one i have heard being misused recently a lot, especially by supports players.
Dying first is bad. Dying itself isn't. If your whole team died, and you didn't, that probably means u were sitting passive in the back and not taking space with your team and putting pressure. You essentially threw the fight.
Not only that but you might even get staggered, possibly throwing the team fight after that too.
Dying WITH your team is fine, sometimes even good.
the whole team dying while Reaper or Genji is flanking is their fault apparently
@@I_Dont_Believe_In_Saladhuh?
@@I_Dont_Believe_In_Saladcocaine
@@I_Dont_Believe_In_Salad reaper and genji are supposed to be on their off angle by the time the fight starts or a few seconds after, otherwise your team is fighting 4v5 and you're doing nothing. So if the entire team dies while reaper or genji are still pissing about on their flank route, yes it is their fault
Adding the stat/scoreboard ruined peoples' perception of how utility works in overwatch
I typically use stats to gauge my own performance, but even that has it's downsides. It's a hard habit to break though, I'm a habitual tabber
Have had soooo many games where the supports are hyper focused on the tank that it was common to wait somewhere between 7-15 sec to get healed. And then the overextending tank goes "danmmm my DPS ain't doing nothing"
I personally obsess over weapon accuracy because there's quite a few times I feel like I should be winning engagements or closing kills, but miss out because I have lower accuracy.
People won't tell you that accuracy is very much dependent on circumstances. Half of your hits are due to you being supported and the enemy making a bad decision, the other half is purely your skill.
@vividao4123 it's hard to avoid looking at accuracy when you can easily compare it to what you see your t500 streamer doing on that same hero and realizing you're less than half as accurate. Lol
Weapon accuracy and damage are linked, if you aren't hitting anyone then you aren't putting out damage.
Of course it's extremely important
I hate how my buddies who one trick moira tell me that as soldier I'm not doing as good since they have more elims or damage. I have like 43 elims and he has 47 and I'm tearing the team down since I'm not good enough.
Because your damage SHOULD be higher
My favorite is how I get told that I'm not doing as well as the other dps on my team even though the soldier had a mercy pocket the entire game.
Moral of the video. Stats cant tell the whole story, be more self aware, and watch match replays
This video should be shown to everyone below Diamond rank. People think they're playing call of duty and think they're good because they have good numbers... but their team still lost because they didnt fundamentally add a lot of quality value
One thing that could help this is to have a Damage and Health received for the last 10s during death cam, i.e. to differentiate if tank died to burst or died slowly and because healing didn't follow through.
There is no quantifiable stat for teamwork, but i'm sure if people learned how their stats contribute they'd be less toxic.
i think the real answer is stats don't contribute
Most people are "toxic" as a coping mechanism for their own lacking gameplay.
Why take accountability for missing all your shots when you can just blame someone else?
There was a game where I kept dying as Zenyatta. It was a push map, and we won, but after I took out a couple of players they took it personally and hunted me down. I killed some of them, but as they were two I would inevitably lose one of the fights. One was a tank (Diva) and the other was some damage hero. On the bright side, I kept two people on the other team away from my team, so it was easier for them to win 4 against 3 (and no tank).
I feel like they should add a stat that tells you how much time the objective has been pushed/contested in the tab.
I want less stats. no, actually i want no stats
@@senor135 Well, you have that option considering that the scoreboard has to be manually opened. Just don’t open it.
it used to
@@Watermelon_Man Obviously the person means that "no stats" should apply to everyone, not just themselves. The whole concept of stats on display is a braindead thing for this type of game where value can be had in about 100 different ways that stats dont tell nor teach.
In a game like CS, sure. It's straight forward, the primary value indicator is elims, and there are far fewer alternate variables to consider. But in Overwatch it's the exact opposite. It mostly just builds bad habits due to misinterpretation of the stats on display.
@@Watermelon_Man yea, true. and i dont, except to check ult charge. but i cant stop others from opening it and comparing stats
Lmao this video just changed how I was seeing stats, this is very interesting. As a flank player I've always felt kinda bad when realising my damage numbers were low, but flankers aren't supposed to deal huge amount of damage, they're supposed to kinda sneak attack exposed or poorly positionned targets and secure a kill quickly enough so said target doesn't get healed. If you're not fast enough and your target gets healed, you'll get more damage, but you just failed doing what you were supposed to. And even if you managed to kill your target despite them being healed, you just gave ultimate charge to both your target and their support
There have been a lot of games that we steamroll the other team where I feel like I did “nothing” but when I think about it you can apply a ton of pressure that doesn’t reflect on the scoreboard. For instance, playing Moira and sucking off the backline will allow your team to push forward and kill the tank and dps (because their supports are occupied and distracted). So even if you don’t end up killing the supports yourself or even if your team doesn’t kill the supports, you still win the fight and you had a large contribution, but you likely won’t have any elims on the scoreboard for it.
Sucking off the backline 😅
i wish u the best in sucking off their backline
it doesn't show on the scoreboard but ur doing the lord's work
if my lucio isnt actively amp speeding me down the enemies throat they are playing lucio wrong, thats why i unironically get upset when i see them constantly yellow like a sad frog :(
3:08 the amount of times I’ve been called bad because I have lower healing than my other support while playing ana even though we are winning is hilarious to me cause all I can think is “congrats on having one of your supports healbot you while I’m trying to put pressure on their cass or Ashe or hanzo, or throwing my nade at the start of a team fight to force abilities like suzu or bap lamp so the dps can try and get a pick easier or the tank can dive in” it’s just frustrating at this point
As a brig main, this video just reasserted my believe in myself. Brig brings soooo much value that doesnt show on the leaderboard, and its so hard having to argue every game with dps/tank that i am bringing value by denying highground and off angles, or by keeping our the widow/ ana alive into tracer sombra.
dont argue turn chat off and climb you and your teams morale is everything but sadly most of the time you cant help teams morale so yours is the most important. Mindset is the key to winning and getting the rank you want
@@ihatethisgamegaminglivestr3509 oh 100% i made an account named BrigOTP and solo q'd to masters with chats muted after being a hardstuck diamond for 3 seasons
@@kitparsons6680 yea fr the mind is the key
@@kitparsons6680 for everything you want to accomplish in life it is your mind that makes it possible
i like how the ‘braxbro is typing’ is visible throughout the video every now and then as foreshadowing.
braxbro is approaching...
Why do I hear boss music?
@@ryanp652off topic but I love your pfp, slimes are the best
I haven't watched the video yet but I lost 2 ranked matches yesterday in games where we out-fragged, out-damaged and out-healed the other team and I was honestly so confused as to how the enemy team pulled off the win.
Spilo: You don't need high healing in bronze.... there's value in discord orb, etc.
Yes! I flex all roles with tank being my best. I love playing Ana as support and I hardly ever get high healing but I always make up for it in other areas. Proper nano's, nades, sleeps, etc. had one game on Nepal where I ran from spawn and my tank was dying holding point while our Moira was off dpsing. I turned a corner and instantly nano'd him, naded him, and slept the enemy tank pressuring him. Then pumped him full of vitamins. The result? He didn't die and we went on to win point and the game. It was a pivotal moment. I always say it's not about how much healing you have but rather getting the right heals in at the right time. Moira, Lucio, etc can have massive heals over the game but if it's not there at the right time it won't mean anything.
Stats are incredibly useful to see how teammates are adjusting against swaps and all that. But looking at stats once or twice throughout the game means nothing and can be incredibly hurtful.
If a teammate isnt performing well over a couple of fights and we arent doing amazing as a team, that might convince me that I really need to swap in order to make up for what we are lacking. Of course the average player will just take that same info and blame their teammate and call for the teammate to swap.
This video is so educational for Overwatch players. Extremely accurate and needed to be heard and understood by all players
As a sombra player I can honestly say 50% of my wining games my damage is like 2500 but 12-21 elims. My losing games I end up having more damage cause means they are not dying.
Stats show what the game has processed, not what you have done
Widowmaker might have no damage or no elims on the board, because she's creating pressure
Many times as a 34/5 genji, I defended my 12/5 widow from being roasted or being told to switch. She didn't get many elims because she was such a threat that I could go in a rampage
They couldn't take space because of the widow. The fear of the one shot allowed me to dive in and out, because my widow was creating such a safezone
I love this! I'm an aggressive Sombra that has been shooting up my ranks the past 3 seasons, but my stats have been up and down. Of course, sometimes I can tell I'm just playing poorly, but I AM consistently winning. This helps explain a lot!
The worst one is Assists. Moira gets assists if anybody she is healing gets a kill. No other support does that except Moira for some reason (except Illari with her secondary fire only)
actually thats how assist work😂 all supports did that
Yeah that's all supports. For it to be an assist you just can do any direct damage yourself
@@jimrouge3437 It's absolutely not all supports (if you mean getting assists via healing). I know for a certainty that Kiriko and Ana do not get it from healing. Ana must Sleep or Nade the victim, or Nano Boost somebody who got an Elim. Kiriko gets them from kills within a time from Suzu hit and any Elim earned from a player who dealt damage within Kitsune Rush
They both have voice lines for assists (Kiriko says "The Kitsune gains new champions" and Ana says "You're welcome")
You also get killing blows if you do a lil damage to any enemy before they die
@@kasm7870 The enemy has to die as you are actively healing, and you will get the assist with any support. I play Brig a bit, and I get tons of assists from my repair packs and inspire.
I never really opened the TAB screen when playing back when... ever only to see who is in which team and who is dead...
Im high silver/low gold and as a mercy main I was getting worried that me and the other support getting even numbers (had a round where both me and our ana had 22k heals) meant I wasn't doing enough, BUT that ana healing allowed me to get more damage boosted. This video definitely made me feel better about my support gameplay lol
For me it's always funny when people say you are useless as Rein when they fail to recognize all the time you spent giving them a safe angle to shoot from. Being a moving wall for them to advance and fail to see that Rein while can be good at being aggressive though can be equally useful in just being a staging point to attack.
I think the two major criterias to judge the value of your actions is through conversion and efficiency with conversion meaning that you turn your enemy's advantage or strength into a disadvantage. It's most obviously seen in how your positioning can turn an enemy's position against them and vice versa. Consistent positive conversion (actions that consistently turn the tides in your favor) and high efficiency are only achievable with good teamwork so the real game is trying to figure out what actions allow your team to win with the lowest numbers on the board.
There’s an add on in wow called details that gives all kinds of info about stats, overwatch needs that haha
10:40 I climbed out of low silver to diamond with just zen by not wasting trans. I cant remember what I watched that convinced me to hold on to his ult more but that alone was a drastic shift in my win rate after being stuck in silver for a many seasons the rest being building trans faster.
Healing received and damage taken stats. The game reports section in the career profile should give WAY more stats.
I can remember a few instances where me and my buddy duo-ed on dps (mid plat) and got flamed by our tank because we were “throwing”. Meanwhile our tank is flying into the back line to chase the enemy Kiriko or Mercy with both of our supports rushing right behind them pumping everything they’ve got into them while we’re left to 2 v 3-4 their tank, dps, and possibly a support.
I’ve noticed if I don’t jump to conclusions about my team they usually bounce back and give full effort, be patient and don’t be negative it’s immature and just loses games.
"GG dps diff":
The dps
Sombra:
- 20 kills
- 8k dmg
- 2 deaths
- hacked 50
- stoped 5 ults
Widow:
- 41 kills
- 10k dmg
- 5 deaths
The guy who said it:
Doomfist:
- 30 kills
- 18k dmg
- 10 deaths
- always ults on the middle of the enemy team
This so much. I'm so sick of being flamed over average healing or below average damage output despite my kill participation and deaths being far better than the other supports
Exactly! This was the same problem with medals. People just use them to cope and flame. I was happy when they got rid of medals just to be disappointed to find they replaced it with the stat board.
9:52
I understand certain characters have separate values, but at the end of the day if the tank is dying in 2 seconds because we have a lucio and a zen, just because those characters give value doesn't mean it's helping us win the game. at some point people need to accept that swapping picks is a better choice instead of berating your team for "not making use of your benefits" or even worse, insisting the TANK swaps to make better use of your abilities, which is just the exact same thing.
Characters have their benefits, don't berate your team because you think your team isn't using them when at the end of the day you're just not providing enough SURVIVABILITY to the team.
The GOAT of Overwatch 2 content. I feel like I am wasting my time watching other content creators when the best takes are always here. Hope you continue and great to see you going to summits and making appearances on Group Up.
Moira main from OW1, it was common to end up with 5 gold medals. It's really hard to learn her character because the game doesn't really give feedback on how effective every point of healing and damage actually is, even if you're doing a lot of both.
What would be helpful is show the individual stats of every hero for everyone. But that's going to be a mess on the UI. Maybe putting the mouse on hover every hero can be displayed. That's will be really helpful
To me this is one of the most important things I would like people to understand. I find it can feed into bad play. The amount of times I see a DPS just farming some meaningless damage and then continues to die needlessly because of it. Or support overhealing (and not doing something that is really needed at that moment) since they are only thinking about having top healing. And the worst part is that they think they played well and not improve.
My thoughts on stats in every team based game ever.
Clearly, concisely, reasonably stated.
Thank you.
weapon accuracy is dead for me because i always shoot on ground or shooting randomly when i just respawned or when fights are done hahaha
I'm a Reaper main and have higher than average deaths per 10 on Reaper (Think I'm currently on around 8 per 10) but I also hard carry nearly every game I'm on Reaper because I make every death count. I Was stuck in Gold and had a game when matchmaking was broken in early Overwatch 2 in which there was one GM player and one Master player on my team that were in a duo together and they asked me my rank middle of the match; they were shocked when I said I was Gold 3, and said that by the way I play (they mentioned various aspects of my play), they just assumed I was a Master or GM player like them.
This encouraged me to do a total mindset shift, start trusting in my own ability way more, and within roughly two weeks I had hit Master for the first time. I managed to get to Master 3, which is my highest so far, but sadly I suffer pretty badly from anxiety disorder which can often affect my gameplay, and I had to take a break around hitting Master 3 as the anxiety was making my games more difficult than they should be (I get light headedness and struggle to breathe, heart palpitations, all that kinda stuff).
Yesterday I was queued for a match with a 5 stack I'd found in the Overwatch 2 LFG, and while we were doing deathmatch while waiting for a game, some guy tried to insult my skill by saying "I hate Reaper players, he's such a low skill hero." He said this because I killed him as Reaper with ease; he was on Widow (which is supposed to be a hard counter to Reaper, right??). While I can obviously accept that Reaper is not as mechanically intensive as certain heroes, I still believe he does have a bigger degree of mechanical intensity than most people recognize and give him credit for, because no matter what anyone thinks, you cannot play Reaper and get value unless you have decent aim skills at a minimum. whilst also requiring waaaay more gamesense and positioning skill than a lot of other heroes. You also need to be great at mindgames to play Reaper, and know how to abuse the decisions that the enemy team will make. Anyway, I asked this guy his rank after he wasn't listening to a word I said, and he said that he'd played OW for 6 years and was a professional player, and used that as his ammo to try and talk down shit to me, calling me "washed" and saying I was "talking out of my ass," all whilst refusing to simply prove to me that he was a pro player, because apparently there was no point.
I have a montage of my Reaper gameplay on my channel, if anyone would like to see how I play.
I wish we could get a comprehensive after stat. Like how much you healed each player on what hero or damaged. Or how much beam downtime there is. (Mercy, we have beam dmgbst vs healing but it doesnt show how much its disconnected) etc. Those are far more useful.
ETA: I wish replays could be exported/saved and also it added timestamps. (From deaths/ etc.) To make it easier to find.
Yes, healing recieved, or resources recieved and given could be so useful! So you can determine how well you did based on how much resource you were given. If it was better, worse, expected.
Ok, this makes sense, but at a certain point is does raise red flags, especially if tank is 20k and dps is 9-10k damage with ten less elims.
Im still learning that the scoreboard means basically nothing and its hard to not instantly go to that to see how good or bad im going (i used to be gold 2 seasons ago hit diamond this season and last season)
I just played a game yesterday as Kiriko where I went and off angled spamming kunai, forced cooldowns, and distracted, and immediately get flamed because my healing is less than Lucio's who hasn't gotten off heal aura, is standing still behind the tank, and hasn't gotten more than 3 meters off the ground. I wish I could share this video with my ranked teammates.
This is all well and good, but when we are in the second round and i have a genji going 0 and 9 with 800 damage, that really says something.
I had a game where the enemy team had better stats than my team including, myself yet we still won. 💀 and from that point on even though i already was...i didn't take the game seriously anymore. This just amped it up to 12 💀
10:00 I am a lucio otp in metal ranks and I can heavily relate to that. I usually average around like 70% speed boost 30% healing each match and yet my teammates blame me for not healing enough even though lucio isn't a main healer. I want to learn to play more aggressively and "feed" more and learn when I should play aggressively and passively. They tell me to swap when we are losing and I can't swap either way because I don't know how to play any other support correctly. I've spent a lot of time learning his wall riding mechanics and stuff.
The thing I hate the most that ppl always says. Is Tank, DPS, or Support Diff. And they are morons. I feel you. Stats never tell the full truth. Totally agree.
One of the most frequent question is, "Do stats affect my rank?" and of course the game has to be such that the answer is no. You could get lots of big numbers in your stats and still lose the match - if your rank goes up because of the stats, what does that mean for the game? It means that the real objective is the stats. Pushing the payload further is no longer the objective.
Whatever it is that affects your rank, _that_ is the objective of the game. If you want the objective of the game to be to push the payload further than the opponent, then by necessity you must agree that stats cannot affect your rank.
I feel like every comp is situational you gotta switch characters and adjust to the best player on the other side to try and counter em.
Speaking about self-healing in one game I had a support player using Moira was so little healing that I managed to get more healing then that player using Sombra
" I didn't die" said the Sombra with 3 elims. I am currently gold support (peaked at diamond in ow1 came back after 6 years away) the amount of times I'm getting asked to switch of zen cuz my heals are low is crazy. How can yous till not understand how an original character works 8 years after release
The only stat that matters is who won or lost.
I think supports should get a "Damage Amplified" stat. It can go under their damage stat but in parenthesis.
They said they were updating the medal system and I was so excited for real stats. Unlucky
It's interesting knowing how the game properly works can make you have a higher self-esteem, someone that's on low ranks might get bashed on by his teammates for not healing or doing enough damage, maybe they were actually the best player in the team but they don't realize it and believe their teammates and get sad over it.
Sitting back line with 76 shooitng raking up dmg while the opponent has a healer behind the corner healing them constantly . N when we finally push they keep wondering why lucio n zen always have they ults n we cant win the push
Even accuracy % is useless in OW stats. Prefiring corners and doorways etc. lowers ur %
They really should make the stats window useful.
Just tried explaining this to my torbjourn who had 7 kills to my 6 kills while I was playing Ashe into triple flyers… while he was shooting shields, giving the opponents supports ult charge, and letting the opposing mercy for free. He switched to soldier with 30 seconds left…
Simultaneously I had two 60+ kill games yesterday and I know damn well every game I can pop off like that it’s because my tank and supports are enabling me
I’ve started realising this after playing tracer a lot
I wish they'd let us block stats from the tab screen. Unbinding it doesn't do because you also lose access to what the team picks are and CDs.
This video should be required watching for anyone queueing Overwatch. Everyone always says out loud, stats don’t matter, but this takes it to such a deeper, specific level.
It seems like literally almost every game you play in comp, there’s people trying to justify their opinion, or justify their play style, or justify their comments, based on stats. It can be so infuriating, because it is such a simple-minded approach. How many games have you played where some douche says “you are ___ and ___ (insert whatever applicable stats they might reference), stop talking!” Or shit like ‘wow only 5k healing is insane’ or WHATEVER the comment is. I hear it constantly, but yet, don’t waste your time ever trying to explain any of this to anyone. It’s half the frustration in playing Overwatch, honestly.
The subject and content of this video is such an overlooked yet important part of the game, I just wish more people could understand these concepts, it would cut down on a lot of the frustration in the game.
At least for me.
Stats don’t dictate whether you will lose or win a game. However, stats do reflect why you won or lost a game. If I’m playing tank and see my dps have triple my deaths then I know why the game felt miserable. Or if I see my supports lock Moira Mercy and both just heal bot while the other team goes Zen Brig or zen Lucio. You can have as high of a healing stat as you want supports with no impactful buttons loses to supports with impactful button 9 times outta 10. Knowing how to read the scoreboard is the difference between someone with a brain and someone without one.
healing recived stat sould be a % if they ever implement it tho
Might be better to just have an integer because some characters heal themselves and okay Hog did X% of Heals Rec but was literally never healed by Supports. I think we want to know if we're being healed by teamates.
In high plat right now and some games my team cares more about numbers than winning. We will be winning the game and playing well but the team will still ask everyone to swap because we have 2k less damage or heals
It’s about winning not killing
I quit this game years ago but I'm glad somebody is bring up the subtle arguments for me.
I think competitive games should remove stats and potg.
The team can decide who got the value, the game only conflicts with reality and tries to "social justice warrior" a fake narrative to drive engagement real money purchases.
My proudest matches were when I win despite getting completely hard countered on Winston and my stats looking absolutely trash compared to the enemy tank. My DPS call me useless but really I baited out all the pressure of the enemy team and created a gigantic amount of space for you.
11:14 though usually low deaths for support, if you are not simply hiding is considered a good thing, no? Normally when I see that the team fight is lost I need to be spamming retreat for that single tank or dps that has no peripheral vision and keeps fighting 1v5 as if nothing happened. When I see there is simply no hope of winning I already planned my retreat and changed angles, meanwhile my teamates, most of the time keep pushing and overextending (specially when playing with friends).
OMG A VIDEO On this topic finally someone did it
i play with like a 2.5kd and 8-10 deaths/10 i constantly get flamed but in the end i still get to top500 with like a 70-80% winrate
or two seasons ago i had a 60% winrate on sym (in gm1) while going negative every second game
sadly scoreboard doesnt show that you forced anti nade, suzu, lamp, the attention of 2-3 players at a critical moment, etc...
so while playing safe definitely has merrit, inting at the right time and forcing a lot of enemy resources also does
This is hapen when i play mauga. I do a ton of damage, but in the end dont matter, becuase if my damage dont stay with me and termine to kill the enemy, my damage dont worth
Deaths matter the most to me because it shows me if you’re either getting shitted on or feeding in order to make plays or space
Yep its why TF2 hasnt shown K/D/A for 17 years because in a hero shooter it means nothing
Kinda make sense I notice I’ll play Winston , I’ll go in and die after a good fight and my team still wins engagement , prob because there team burned a bunch of abilities protecting there team against me
I think stats are still useful as I use them to help pinpoint what I'm doing wrong as I'm playing (watching replays is obviously far more accurate, but by then it's too late), they're not definitive, but still indicative towards what are the largest mistakes being made.
I do agree but if your stats aren't just low they're borderline throwing then there is room to suggest an issue.
I.e. if it's like
Tank - 3 Elims, 11 Deaths, 2400 Damage
DPS1 - 21 Elims, 8 Deaths, 8900 Damage
DPS2 - 28 Elims, 6 Deaths, 11400 Damage
Sup1 - 0 Elims, 4 Deaths, 100 Damage, 12000 Healing
Sup2 - 17 Elims, 7 Deaths, 6400 Damage, 8500 Healing
You could argue maybe the supports didn't heal the tank? But even a "Feeding" tank or a "Not Playing Well" tank can get more then 2400 damage and 3 elims. So this person likely doesn't belong in this lobby or is having an incredibly off day.
Same if we swapped Sup2 to lets say 8 Elims, 13 Deaths, 4900 Damage, 1400 Healing
Now we could say this support is doing nothing but dying too much and just dpsing so here's where stats can tell a story but in many cases i agree they are very useless to judge a full teams impact or why one team won and another loss.
Its also still first and foremost an objective game and the only fights that really matter is the ones that win you the important points of the map. I.e. winning 5 fights on a hybrid map only to lose the 6th fight still means the team won in the end to cap the initial point. So then if they can the 1st and 2nd checkpoints with almost no slow down on payload but in total you lost 3 fights then in total your team lost 4 fights and enemy team lost 5 the scoreboard will look like your team did better but they end with 2 minutes on the clock.
Where when you go to push in your team caps the first point instantly so wins 1 fight, but then are stalled sacrificing even #'s from both team and go into overtime for 1st cap, eventually push through and then overtime for final point. Looking at scoreboard it "feels" even but now your team is defending for a "Draw".
in the 2 minutes your team wins 3 fights and then it's a very long overtime with another 1.5 fights won and eventually you lose, but looking at scoreboard your team had almost 2x the stats. You just didn't win where it mattered and didn't play objectives well enough.
Imo a few things the leaderboard needs
Final Blows - Regardless of how much damage you put in the person getting the final blow is more impactful then the person who assisted the kill. Many times someone can deal 95% of the damage and never finish. So if anyone on the team finishes the kill they are more valuable then the person who did the 95% damage.
Elimination renamed to "Damage Assists" any time some form of damage was put into an enemy and that enemy died but was not killed by your damage.
Assists renamed to "Supportive Assists" any time an ability or healing saved or assisted another player in living or killing someone that is not damage related in itself.
Objective Assists - any time you're on the objective or assist with a kill on objective
This can be done as Assists(#/#/#) as well.
LOS Of Enemy % - I think this would be a cool statistic to know how often a player is in line of sight of enemies and how often they're just hiding in corners. So if you see someone with 0 Deaths and like 5% LOS you know they aren't participating in the match. But if you see they have like 80% LOS and 18 Deaths you can probably suggest they are feeding a lot.
Damage with a (%/%/%) i.e. Damage 11400 (52/28/20) to see how the % splits are. so like that split would be okay, but if you saw (84/13/3) well then you can see this person was just farming damage or hyperfocused on tank and in many cases you want to kill the dps or support if they are singled out or in a vulnerable position with no abilities.
Healing with a (%/%) no we won't share who got the healing because not all characters can easily control those situations and you not getting healing isn't always the supports fault. But having two %'s will be nice to show "Team Healing vs Self Healing" %'s
I think a leaderboard like this would be more impactful in understanding what went wrong with your team but it will never be a perfect solution just more informative.
I'd also be okay with information being "Basic" in match and more in-depth post match when you look at the game afterwards so you can figure out more deeply what went wrong in a match once it's over and review your own games. It would assist a lot in Code Reviews as well.
cool
I had a game a few days ago. Push map, my team had half the stats of the other team (damage, healing, everything) and we steamrolled them. Stats are just nice things to see but really don't paint the whole story.
sounds to me like your team played cover better
I'm a simple man: I read stats are useless, I upvote
For the soldier accuracy comment, Im diamond and not spamming the tank the whole time. Accuracy usually falls to 34% but its enough perssure to win