Thank you for this. I can relate to Marty as in I cannot pinpoint my conversion. I was baptized 9/3/95, Amen, but my journey began long before. This made me wonder, if it does not make sense to ask Jesus “When was your conversion?” Does it make sense to ask one another? I believe we were all pre destined. These are just thoughts that came up from listening to Marty. Love this.
Yes!! Wholeness 🙌🏼 integrative❤️ Such great conversations. As a trauma survivor and overcomer.. I look back at how the boundaries as a young disciple were used as a part of my healing! God has helped me to grow beyond that.
I've got to say: Your ministry in these interviews, which have been courageous to say the least, have been healing to me. What you and other are doing goes beyond the ICOC, while addresses the artificial boundaries that some of the ICOC's doctrines, theologies, and practices have imposed on the freedoms in Christ that we all have been guaranteed. Blessing are upon you, Brother.
This was so great! This was a high level overview of legalism and very helpful. I am a new listener of both of you guys and i truly appreciate both your knowledge and wisdom. Marty I am still in season one of the BEMA podcast cast but i have learned so much and it has transformed my "western" way of thinking about the scriptires and God. Kyle i love love love and appreciate your work it has helped me so much with understanding how to deal with trama and what God things of us. This was amazing thank you brothers.
Thank you so much for this discussion, Kyle and Marty! I appreciate so much how you said maturity is about paradox- I’ve been seeing this so much in my own struggles and wrestling with my own fundamentals in my faith. I am a person who tends to want certainty, and I see so much fear in myself. As a church leader, I found this very helpful and I appreciate your encouragement for pastors as well. Your ministry is so helpful and so needed. Thank you!
Thank you so much for this interview. Fascinating idea to acknowledge that Jesus was focused on people then holiness vs our tendency to focus on holiness then people. Marty said in an another interview on image bearer by Otoma that we need to evangelize the Church, send missionnairies into the churches... With the légalism we are facing redundantly in so many churches I find this quite true. Be blessed, Philippe Greetings from Paris, France. This is my first video I listened to, so I subscribed and I'll watch others.
I subscribed to the channel after hearing you speak at the Inside Out conference; it was SO NEEDED for me, so I can't wait to dive into the stuff you talk about here! This episode was great, really thought-provoking but also really validating a lot of stuff I've felt about my own church and leaders lately.
I always agree that “Love God & Love People” is the core and essence. But people like to codify and simply things too much and focus only on the side points as the main dish. Yes, out of fear of lacking certainty, we may end up worshiping system as an idol.
I love the discussion of wrestling and it was a major point I've taken from listening to BEMA, but from my perspective, the wrestling is against doubt in general and there's wrestling with why God chose to give us a certain amount of revelation without the clarity that he provided to the Jews with the law. There's wrestling in how I interpret what I read, but at some point do we not have to settle on some amount of doctrine and belief about what is right and wrong - what God desires so that we can obey? Trust the story, know you will always be wrestling, but you must trust and obey - is it legalistic to take a stand on one side of an issue? Is it better to be on the conservative side of an issue, or a liberal side? How do you distinguish between legalism and obedience? This was a great discussion, but it feels difficult to make a practical application here without saying anything goes on controversial topics (and even on ones I would not typically consider controversial). I think it's fair to say that we should not try to be the absolute diviner of truth when we interpret the word of God, but we have to teach from a place of confidence because I can't learn to obey if I don't know the commands I'm being asked to follow. Love God, love your neighbor, but I need to know what that really looks like. There's plenty of teaching on rebuking Christians that are not obedient and restoring a lost brother from his sin - this is loving your neighbor, though you can love your neighbor in the small things as well - love is an action. God says if you love me, you'll keep my commandments - this is how we love God, but the struggle is interpreting the commands of God in our modern society. Legalism can get lost in the rules(and making up rules) and can forget to love, which is how I've always seen the legalism of the Pharisees. That said it doesn't make God's commands not important as well. You could say that the legalistic side of me wants to call out Christians doing things that I believe are contrary to God's word, but I always want to be open to continue seeking a deeper understanding and to hear new perspectives. I know you reiterated this at the end - nobody is saying that obedience isn't important... but knowing what to obey and striving to have confidence in that feels like the real struggle when it comes to conflict in the church and the danger of pushing people away because of manmade tradition and personal worldviews.
“Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit.” Church identity and ministry activities, and doctrines can be as much of an accessory for a religious person’s ego as riches or worldly status. The trippiest thing for me is when vain conceit starts bubbling up in my thoughts as I’m praying and meditating. There’s been time where I start feeling superior and self-satisfied by my spiritual disciplines, which is so counter to the humility and kenosis that I’m trying to get to in prayer. 🤦♂️ But that’s probably how the Pharisees became legalistic. The rituals and regulations stopped being tools to purify their hearts and instead just became literally accessories (phylacteries) for their egos.
How can Marty Solomon talk about Christ with reverence when he likes heretic Richard Rohr and gave Rohr's book "The Universal Christ" a good review (4 stars). Rohr's book exposes his heresies upfront, such as Jesus and the "universal Christ" are not one and the same; the first incarnatin of Christ was creation; there is no 2nd coming of Jesus Christ; Jesus did not die for sins; man has never been separated from God but has always been in God; Christ is a power in creation drawing it to perfection (and this Christ is not Jesus).
Sin a byproduct of fear and insecurity? I don’t see that in the scriptures. Fear and insecurity are certainly foundational sins in the subset of sins, but you certainly provide no evidence for that, just a bald assertion to support your ideas in uncertainty. I don’t even disagree with your ideas on that - wrestling, etc…but you should probably provide some scriptural evidence for such an assertion.
This was sooooooooo good!
Thank you for this. I can relate to Marty as in I cannot pinpoint my conversion. I was baptized 9/3/95, Amen, but my journey began long before. This made me wonder, if it does not make sense to ask Jesus “When was your conversion?” Does it make sense to ask one another? I believe we were all pre destined. These are just thoughts that came up from listening to Marty. Love this.
21:25 - Being concerned about people over holiness is an amazing way to explain Matthew 22:39
Thank you! I learned so much from Dallas Willard, A life of learning from Jesus, with others. not earning, enjoying effort to Ginosko
I've re-listened to this deep dive. To have lived this, and experienced this allows me to comprehend with understanding. Kudos!
This is has been SUPER helpful for me to hear at this point along my journey of faith/life! Great conversation all the way through!
Yes!! Wholeness 🙌🏼 integrative❤️ Such great conversations. As a trauma survivor and overcomer.. I look back at how the boundaries as a young disciple were used as a part of my healing! God has helped me to grow beyond that.
I've got to say: Your ministry in these interviews, which have been courageous to say the least, have been healing to me. What you and other are doing goes beyond the ICOC, while addresses the artificial boundaries that some of the ICOC's doctrines, theologies, and practices have imposed on the freedoms in Christ that we all have been guaranteed. Blessing are upon you, Brother.
Thanks for the interview has helped viewing myself and changes needed
This was so great! This was a high level overview of legalism and very helpful. I am a new listener of both of you guys and i truly appreciate both your knowledge and wisdom. Marty I am still in season one of the BEMA podcast cast but i have learned so much and it has transformed my "western" way of thinking about the scriptires and God. Kyle i love love love and appreciate your work it has helped me so much with understanding how to deal with trama and what God things of us. This was amazing thank you brothers.
Thank you so much for this discussion, Kyle and Marty! I appreciate so much how you said maturity is about paradox- I’ve been seeing this so much in my own struggles and wrestling with my own fundamentals in my faith. I am a person who tends to want certainty, and I see so much fear in myself. As a church leader, I found this very helpful and I appreciate your encouragement for pastors as well. Your ministry is so helpful and so needed. Thank you!
🙏❤️❤️❤️
Thank you so much for this interview. Fascinating idea to acknowledge that Jesus was focused on people then holiness vs our tendency to focus on holiness then people.
Marty said in an another interview on image bearer by Otoma that we need to evangelize the Church, send missionnairies into the churches... With the légalism we are facing redundantly in so many churches I find this quite true.
Be blessed,
Philippe
Greetings from Paris, France.
This is my first video I listened to, so I subscribed and I'll watch others.
I subscribed to the channel after hearing you speak at the Inside Out conference; it was SO NEEDED for me, so I can't wait to dive into the stuff you talk about here! This episode was great, really thought-provoking but also really validating a lot of stuff I've felt about my own church and leaders lately.
wow! just last week i was thinking i’d love to hear a discussion between you and marty solomon! so excited to watch this!
…and it did not disappoint!
I’m grateful to able to connect with Marty!
Thank you. Confirmation of my simple basic test to whether something is legalism. Does it elevate the rules over the person?
I always agree that “Love God & Love People” is the core and essence. But people like to codify and simply things too much and focus only on the side points as the main dish.
Yes, out of fear of lacking certainty, we may end up worshiping system as an idol.
Well said!
Thank you both for influencing my journey! @marty what are those posters on the wall or top 5 mind changing books on that shelf behind you?
You mentioned healing and how legalism strips safety. Can people heal in spaces that they don't feel safe in?
Great question! Honestly my opinion is no most times. However we can communicate about what we need in order to feel safe.
I love the discussion of wrestling and it was a major point I've taken from listening to BEMA, but from my perspective, the wrestling is against doubt in general and there's wrestling with why God chose to give us a certain amount of revelation without the clarity that he provided to the Jews with the law. There's wrestling in how I interpret what I read, but at some point do we not have to settle on some amount of doctrine and belief about what is right and wrong - what God desires so that we can obey? Trust the story, know you will always be wrestling, but you must trust and obey - is it legalistic to take a stand on one side of an issue? Is it better to be on the conservative side of an issue, or a liberal side? How do you distinguish between legalism and obedience?
This was a great discussion, but it feels difficult to make a practical application here without saying anything goes on controversial topics (and even on ones I would not typically consider controversial). I think it's fair to say that we should not try to be the absolute diviner of truth when we interpret the word of God, but we have to teach from a place of confidence because I can't learn to obey if I don't know the commands I'm being asked to follow. Love God, love your neighbor, but I need to know what that really looks like. There's plenty of teaching on rebuking Christians that are not obedient and restoring a lost brother from his sin - this is loving your neighbor, though you can love your neighbor in the small things as well - love is an action. God says if you love me, you'll keep my commandments - this is how we love God, but the struggle is interpreting the commands of God in our modern society. Legalism can get lost in the rules(and making up rules) and can forget to love, which is how I've always seen the legalism of the Pharisees. That said it doesn't make God's commands not important as well. You could say that the legalistic side of me wants to call out Christians doing things that I believe are contrary to God's word, but I always want to be open to continue seeking a deeper understanding and to hear new perspectives.
I know you reiterated this at the end - nobody is saying that obedience isn't important... but knowing what to obey and striving to have confidence in that feels like the real struggle when it comes to conflict in the church and the danger of pushing people away because of manmade tradition and personal worldviews.
“Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit.” Church identity and ministry activities, and doctrines can be as much of an accessory for a religious person’s ego as riches or worldly status. The trippiest thing for me is when vain conceit starts bubbling up in my thoughts as I’m praying and meditating. There’s been time where I start feeling superior and self-satisfied by my spiritual disciplines, which is so counter to the humility and kenosis that I’m trying to get to in prayer. 🤦♂️ But that’s probably how the Pharisees became legalistic. The rituals and regulations stopped being tools to purify their hearts and instead just became literally accessories (phylacteries) for their egos.
Agree
10:10, the real Christian may also want to know why the wife threw away the other 29 oranges. 😂
We’re doing to Jesus what the Pharisees did with Torah 🤯 sheesh
How can Marty Solomon talk about Christ with reverence when he likes heretic Richard Rohr and gave Rohr's book "The Universal Christ" a good review (4 stars). Rohr's book exposes his heresies upfront, such as Jesus and the "universal Christ" are not one and the same; the first incarnatin of Christ was creation; there is no 2nd coming of Jesus Christ; Jesus did not die for sins; man has never been separated from God but has always been in God; Christ is a power in creation drawing it to perfection (and this Christ is not Jesus).
Sin a byproduct of fear and insecurity? I don’t see that in the scriptures.
Fear and insecurity are certainly foundational sins in the subset of sins, but you certainly provide no evidence for that, just a bald assertion to support your ideas in uncertainty. I don’t even disagree with your ideas on that - wrestling, etc…but you should probably provide some scriptural evidence for such an assertion.