Old Calendar, New Calendar... Why Two Calendars?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 14 ต.ค. 2024
- NOTE:
At around 06:05, Fr Peter states that the New Calendar is the Gregorian Calendar. They do align but dates are calculated differently so technically they aren't the same. At the 1923 Congress the decision was made not to adopt the Gregorian because doing so would be exploited by the Pope to further the Unia. Rather, Pat. Meletios wanted to introduce a superior calendar to the Gregorian with the hope that the rest of the world would also adopt the New Calendar and see the EP as more of a "leader of the Christian world" than the Pope. The New Calendar, or Revised Julian, is based on the calculations of the Serbian scientist Milutin Milanković that were proposed at the 1923 Congress.
See: en.wikipedia.o...
Excerpt from "The Mystery of Christ: An Athonite Catechism (Lesson 11) - Types of Christ: David, Solomon, Daniel" by Fr. Peter Heers
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NOTE:
At around 06:05, Fr Peter states that the New Calendar is the Gregorian Calendar. They do align but dates are calculated differently so technically they aren't the same. At the 1923 Congress the decision was made not to adopt the Gregorian because doing so would be exploited by the Pope to further the Unia. Rather, Pat. Meletios wanted to introduce a superior calendar to the Gregorian with the hope that the rest of the world would also adopt the New Calendar and see the EP as more of a "leader of the Christian world" than the Pope. The New Calendar, or Revised Julian, is based on the calculations of the Serbian scientist Milutin Milanković that were proposed at the 1923 Congress.
See: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revised_Julian_calendar
Question: are most patriarchates on the Gregorian calendar or “Revised Julian” calendar?
The same Patriarch Meletios who wrote the 1920 encyclical to the "churches everywhere?" In this he formally puts forth the program for ecumenism and as a central point advocates for a common date of PASCHA.
@@Andrew_Schaefer Most Patriarchates are on the new calendar while most world Orthodox are on the old. That's because the MP is so large.
@@frankschaeffer8153 I understand that. My question was basically “which new calendar?” Read OE’s OP comment for context.
@@Andrew_Schaefer Everyone uses the revised Julian. Maybe Finnland is on the Gregorian? I don't know, you'd have to look that up. (Saying as they use the papal paschalion which is under triple anathema.)
Appearance of the Cross in 1925 over the church of St. John the Theologian in Athens comes to mind. Similar to the appearance of the Cross in 351 which put the teachings of Arianism to shame.
What event does this refer to?
@@harveygosalcalendar change
@@harveygosal google "Appearance of the Cross Athens 1925 royal path"
Thank you for this explanation, Father...☦️
I have always celebrated Christmas on Jan 7th and that will never change. I do thank you for such a great explanation.
You celebrate Christmas at January the 7th?
So you already use the NEW calendar
@@evangelosdiamantopoulos8608 I get what you are saying and it is funny. The new/old calendar conversation can be confusing because people use new calendar dates to make an old calendar distinction.
@OP if you used the Julian calendar, you would still celebrate on Dec 25th (by old calendar reckoning) which as measured by the new calendar is Jan 7th.
I always did on Gregorian Dec. 25th but after moving to the traditional calendar it's Gregorian Jan. 7th for me for now on.
@@evangelosdiamantopoulos8608It is said that way so people understand, obviously....
@@Andrew_Schaefer
No my point is that the use of the Old calendar is just a hypocrisy
You can't be using the New , correct,and world wide used calendar in your entire everyday life, and then every Sunday morning, remember that it's cursed ,papist etc and use an old out dated one.
Great explanation, thank you father
The main reason why the NC was introduced can be read in the 1920 encyclical “Unto the churches of Christ Everywhere” by Pat Metaxakis of sorry memory. The change had everything to do with ecumenism.
That's pretty much my understanding of the history as well. The switch seems to have been a kind of first foray into ecumenism, with the eventual goal of unifying with Rome. Father hit the nail on the head, I think, when he said there was a lack of respect for the conciliar tradition of Orthodoxy. We don't operate this way. Decisions that affect the whole Church are supposed to be hashed out by the hierarchy working together. I fear the EP will try something similar with Pascha within a year or two, which would REALLY create a nightmare.
Ecumenism = WCC and World Government and The Antichrist. Moscow is dirty as hell.
This year was a great example of what can go wrong when you adopt the NC. What happened to the fast of the Apostles for all the NC people? This sort of thing happens every 10 years or so. Either there is not fast or St. Peter and Paul falls within the Pentecostarion.
It always seems shorter on the NC, or as you stated, not at all.
This is one of the main problems that needs to be solved in a future council, overturn the discrepancy and return to the unity of fast and feast for all the Christians.
This is one of the main problems that needs to be solved in a future council, overturn the discrepancy and return to the unity of fast and feast for all the Christians.
Excellent explanation, Father. The reason I heard years ago, from some OCA parishes that switched: "Well, we have so many mixed marriages nowadays, it's just easier for families to celebrate the day together." Struck me as a gutless reason then & still does. I know of at least one parish that didn't want to switch calendars, left the OCA over this issue, and was taken to court by them (OCA lost the case).
Correction: the Orthodox Church of Finland agreed to celebrate or was forced by the government of the time (depending on your interpretation of events) to accept the Western calculation of Pascha or Easter and they celebrate it with the Lutheran state church and the RC minority. Some other Orthodox modernists have looked to this example as a justification for their next move, namely a common Easter.
Father Peter please do a breakdown according to the opinions of the saints on the entire Old Calendarist, True Orthodox movements and issues. Please go through each group and explain it. From the Russian and Greek True Orthodox in the 1800s to the GOC of America. All according to the Elders and saints of the one Catholic Church.
There were no TOC groups in the 1800's, because they were formed following the Calendar change in 1924. The first Synod of the GOC of Greece was not founded until 1934 by Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina, and several other retired bishops, most of whom returned to the mainstream Church.
@@jagdmeisterschuler1323 it still leaves the question. What are they? According to the saints are they schismatics or are they Orthodox of the true vine? Is there a distinction between the different groups? What is their ecclesiological justification for their schism? And what is their theology?
They are schismatics. People in countries that chose the new calendar who refused to listen to the Church they were part of. So they rebelled against an issue that's not dogmatic, they denounce the Patriarch and build their own Churches. This is not to be confused with people who follow the calendar as per their Patriarch's decision. If you travel to another country for example, you will need to follow their official calendar to be in communion with that Church and its people. Monks from Mt. Athos do the same. Mt. Athos follows the old calendar and Greece, the new. When monks leave the mountain, they follow the new calendar in Greece and vice versa.
@@Davenport901 that last claim I would like to see some further verification on. As for the reason of the schism I was under the impression that it was not purely calendar concerns but that rather that represents the entirety of their problem with Orthodoxy in the modern age: innovation, modernism, ecumenism etc, it was merely the tip of the iceberg. So I'm looking for an in depth look into that issue and the issue of heretical bishops, communing with ecumenists etc.
@@byzantinephilosopher You might be interested in the book The Struggle Against Ecumenism. There is a lot of historical documentation in that book that gets glossed over by people in the “official” jurisdictions.
my father was born on 1.3.1923 , it was the day after 15.2.1923 in greece
Amen Praise the lord ☦️🛐
There was an "Aleppo Compromise" Calendar put forward by the Antiochian Patriarchate but because they had recently begun a "re-Arabization" the Greeks ignored them.
A re-arabization?
@@Constantineopulos
For about 400 years the Antiochians were ruled by Greek Patriarchs, during the Calendar Controversy the Antiochians began using less and less Greek and more and more Arabic.
That's why the official title of the Patriarch of Antioch is the "Greek Orthodox Patriarch of Antioch".
If I remember correctly, the Council of Niceae does not mention use of any particular calendar. In fact, the council just says that Easter is to be celebrated on the first Sunday after the first full moon following the vernal equinox. Determining the vernal equinox is an astronomical, not calendric phenomenon. There could be 20 different calendars, and the vernal equinox would happen at the same time despite all of them. As a result, the prescription of Niceae seems to be violated by the Orthodox when they break from the created order and follow a man made calendar instead.
Or innovators could have just stayed with Tradition.
ty for the explanation i was wondering some about that as well
I hope the new calendar brothers and sisters had a good Apostolic fasting period . I LOVE Fr. Peter but the Calendar matters 🙏
LOL! Bet it went by quickly😀
They didn't have one. We just celebrated Sts. Peter and Paul yesterday. I'm thankful we always have the Apostles Fast on the Traditional Calendar.
We love you, Fr. Peter!!
The council of Nicea lays down the formula for calculating the date of Pascha:
The first Sunday after the first full moon, after the beginning of spring.
The tables that we currently use do not Accurately calculate the time for the beginning of spring or the time for the full moon.
Therefore, in order to be faithful to the council of Nicea, We ought to change the paschalion in a conciliar way to preserve unity with both heaven and in earth.
We must not change the paschallian .
But as Father explained, decisions of the Ecumenical Councils cannot be changed, because they are inspired by the Holy Spirit. Father specifically said a subsequent Council can't overturn the decisions of a previous one. So Paschal calculation can't be changed.
Fr Peter Bless, at the 5:03 mark it is said that in Bulgaria they celebrate both calendars. Does the Bulgarian Church have an official stance/direction on this? If not, do you feel Patriarch Danil will give an official stance? Thank you
There are more anomalies with the use of papal calendar beside the feast of St. George... How long was Fast of the Apostles this year in churches using papal calendar.?
There is no anomaly with the feast of St. George. That’s not what was being discussed.
It was a negative two days (IOW, no fast this year).
The duration of the AF is determined by the distance between All Saints, and the Feast of Apostles - nothing more. It cannot “get messed up”, as most like to imply. There is a reason it is not a major Fast.
@@Nina_Mo2 Oh... you bought the lie as to how it is "unimportant", probably sold to you by some ecumenist priest. Good luck with that attitude. What is next on the list to be abandoned as "not important'?
@@tclearytcleary Precisely the anomaly I am talking about. With the use of Julian calendar fast is always in place.
The calendar issue is unfortunate because it has created schisms, but it is not salvific. I've repeatedly asked Orthodox Christian brothers under the Russian or Serbian patriarchates if I should leave my Antiochian Greek Orthodox parish for an Old Calendar one because the "fruits of the New Calendar have been disastrous" yet get no response. Could anyone help me out?
Blessed father I have a question. The priest around were I live, including my spiritual father are always busy. I've tried emailing,calling,and even send letters but they seem to fall on deaths ears. I've been in the church for at least 2 years now and still have a lot of questions about the faith and how to live. I've been also trying to not be a "internet orthodox" person (which funny enough was encouraged by internet orthodox channels) or solely being a book worm as the church is more about living the life and asking physical people. I guess what I'm asking is when is it okay to do your own research and is it ever acceptable to do something without priest permission if ever? Also is it okay to get advice from another priest who is not my spiritual father or would my spiritual father override their advice? Thank you so much and God bless
I'm in Serbian orthodox church because of that is my heritage and language I speak, but I work in France and got married in France, there is Serbian church some 100km away, but problem is that I don't have free days from work on major feasts and can't take free day just like that, it would be unpayed but I would risk losing job as well, I think there is issue in western diocese for faithful. I understand that we should always choose Lord above convenience and trust in Him to provide but I can't on my own, no one is addressing these issues and giving spiritual support...
Thank you
What date does the Holy Fire come out at the Church of the Holy Sepulchre? New or old calendar date?
Good question.
Not a new calendar/old calendar issue, because it's according to the Pascal calendar (which is the same for all Orthodox churches).
@@andreaslaugh2487 Alright thanks
The NC Orthodox go back to the Church Calendar for Triodion thru Paschal season, so Holy Fire occurs and is celebrated by all on Church calendar, not the NC.
What about Esphigmenou monastery? Why is there drama there?
That's because they refused to commemorate the Patriarch of Constantinople.
@@BecomeAnOrthodoxChristianWhy?
@@Death2Compromise for ecumenism. I believe it was in the 60's when Patriarch Athenagoras met with Pope Paul VI and lifted some of the anathemas.
Those people are a mess, they even recognize Gregory of Colorado
Roe v wade was overturned on the feast day of the Birth of St John the Baptist (on the new calendar)
Can you give some counter responses to Fr. Joseph, at "NFTU: True Orthodox News and Apologetics"? He's an Old Calendarist, and has made some video critiques of some of your claims. Thanks.
Evlogeite Patera☦️
Chaning the menologion has consequences: We see that so graphically this year when the new calendrists have a fast free week before the Feast of the Holy Apostles Peter and Paul (which is today) but no fast. What a joke.
Then Fr. Peter says that if the Pascha date were changed those who changed it had fallen away from Orthodoxy. Well, the Finnish Church *is* on the papal date. Has been for quite some time.
Next the same old false narrative that the calendar change is about the divergence from the secular calendar. Why not talk about the 1920 encyclical of the EP that laid out the ecumenist agenda and called for a common Pascha date with the heterodox? Same Patriarch who wrote that also pushed through the calendar change. (One might also mention that how this Patriarch got on the throne was anything but canonical.)
Father spoke about this un another video
After 4 days of prodromal labor, I birthed my first son born on my patronal name day on the New Calendar. How special that was for me! Seven years after the birth of my second son, I realized he was born ON HIS NAMEDAY on the Old Calendar and we never realized it! We had simply named him after his Russian Orthodox great-great grandfather. So for me, both calendars are meaningful and special and remind me that God is above all time and calendars and should never be cause for division. ☦️
How can it not cause division when there is no unity in celebration, one's fasting while the other is feasting.
Father do you think when the new economical council is called that we'll all get back in the old calendar?
There won't be another ecumenical Council as every issue has been dealt with every issue. The holy Apostolic fathers have condemned the change
@@angelapandazis6512 I believe that there was a prophecy that a new council would be called after the war., where a lot of divisions will be fixed.
@@nicp2344St. Nektary of Optina prophesied that there would be no more councils as the originals already covered everything.
With the large amount of spiritual giants that came out of Romania during the last century (who were on the new calendar) I know 100% without a doubt there is Holiness and grace in new calendar Orthodox churches.
Interesting how all the modern Saints followed the 'Old' Patristic Calendar and also did not commemorate all the heretical bishops either, but they don't tell you that!
@@visancristian8450 Nicely said. Sad but true. Unfortunately Fr Heers has shown to be a gatekeeper of real truth, as you said close but not close enough,, sadly. The reality is that so called 'World Orthodoxy' has been infiltrated by the evil one a long time ago, since the Calendar inception / deception they tell us it is no big deal, not 'dogmatic' don't worry about, yet our forefathers and Saints fought against such changes, any changes for that matter!
@@visancristian8450 sadly seems my reply to you has not been published, Fr Heers seems to not have allowed it... probably won't like this one either...
"... there will come a day that you will see that these churches have been rebuilt. There will be new gold on the cupolas, there will be beautiful churches. But you, do not go there. Because it will be the church of the Antichrist." - Elder Nektary of Optina
Elder talks about the times we are living in... Orthodox churches are commemorating Rome !!!!
@@visancristian8450 I disagree with your contention there are no Saints today. God ALWAYS provides us with Saints. We may not know their names right at this instant, but they are here among us. In fact, I'll bet we have a few living Saints on the Holy Mountain as I type this, and in other monasteries across the nations, too. Besides, we are ALL called to be saints, yes?
@@andreaslaugh2487 I talked with one of the greatest elders of Mount Athos and he cried in front of me telling me that the monks there, and not a few, look at pornography, something that never happened in all history. There are Saints but only a few. the salt is almost over and they will not show up because we don't deserve it. We are too wicked and perverse in ways that human language can't fully explain and the mind of modern people can never comprehend, not even close. No access for any kind of modernism to get close to God, only at the stage of noetic fantasies about real freedom are allowed. There are prophecies that in the end there will be no elders, only old people with age, but no advice and no real priests and that their words will be worldly, will sanctify no one. The word of God will be missing. You think you will find it online, between priests surrounded by PC cables and cars and technology? They will not renounce their passions and will keep you here. The sign for you is that you will not be healed, you will only hear about healing and false healings, that are worse than the previous state.
I guess all those Romanian Orthodox and Bulgarian Orthodox martyrs who died under the communist yoke, that celebrated according to the New Calendar, don't count
To All of The Orthodox Faithful Worldwide : HAPPY 🆕 YEAR ☦️🕊🕯📿🙏1️⃣☦️⛪️‼️
This is a silly reason for division. Genesis clearly stated that the lights in the sky determine time. It wasn't given to humans whose dominance was over the Earth not the sky.
It is silly and the reason for the bringing the new calendar in such an unwarranted way was intentionally divisive
The new calendar is in alignment with the lights in the sky; The old calendar is not.
But someone to preserve it out of some misguided conservatism.
Proper conservatism preserves the essence of things, not the vessel that can no longer hold that essence.
It’s like trying to hold on to a liturgical gospel book, even though it is torn apart at the seams and is not fit for use, rather than repairing or replacing it.
@@Cyrus_II This is a sophism. We do make a new calendar every year, but the calculations are the same. Be ware of satan messing up with your mind. I know that kind of thinking, it's fluffy and you need to humble and pay attention cause you are in a demonic state of sleep walking like most people on the earth. Time in the Church is a recovered time, that ascends from the fallen one and it can not be changed. Anyway, the new calendar movement is meant to align not with eternity, but with the pope, satan and the fallen world, to become worldly and subject of the world, not the other way around. Humble your self to the Church and do not try to make Her like you and your foolish time spend on the clocks of the internet, aka satan, the lord of this dark world and times
7:41 Dear Father, you and your friends did not "change" the date for St. George's feast day. It is all laid out in the Typicon. There are rules for this sort of thing. Possibly you did not intend it, but you give the impression that your church just decided to do something. It has nothing to do with you or your group. Otherwise I agree with what you are trying to say. Thanks.
The feast of St George has to be after Pascha because the service has Paschal hymns! The service was written not taking into consideration the papal calendar!
@@ServantofGod-zj3jd Thanks, That is a great point!
It has nothing to do with the papal calendar.
Wrong impression given. Not intended. Thank you.
When St George's feast is on April 23rd, and Pascha is on May 5th, that's a phenomenon that did not exist before 1924, for the Orthodox. If St. George's feast falls in Great Week, then yes, it should be transferred to after Pascha, but not when it's two weeks early!
❤❤❤❤
He really admitted that world Orthodoxy is uncanonical. 💀💀💀
I'm surprised then he is still with the new
*why
😮
No such thing as "World Orthodoxy". There's Orthodoxy and then there's not. There are groups of Old Calendarists who are isolated in the Church on the Traditional Calendar, and those who schismed from it like the Matthewites. The latter are always dividing from one another. I'm on the Traditional Calendar myself and pray for whole Church to come back to it but it will in due time.
@@LadyMaria The mathewhites are like 5% of the Old Calendarist groups. It's a misrepresentation. Also, the Church is against changing the calendar. What the Ecumenical patriarchate did was not canonical, and actually there are patriarchs and canons that condemn introducing new calendars and the papist calendar.
Glory to Jesus Christ ☦️
Father bless☦️ @The Orthodox Ethos
Many years Father Peter!!!
Troparia
Holy Apostles Peter & Paul, Troparion, Tone IV -
O first enthroned among the apostles/ and teachers of the whole world;/ entreat the Master of all,/ that He grant peace to the world// and great mercy to our souls.
Kontakion, Tone II -
The steadfast and divinely eloquent preachers,/ the foremost of Thine apostles, O Lord,/ hast Thou received into the delight of Thy good things and into rest;/ for Thou hast accepted their pangs and death as greater than any wholeburnt offering,// O Thou Who alone knowest the hearts of men.
☦️☦️☦️
Accuracy matters because it reflects the truth which matters. If one calendar is more accurate and the other is inaccurate, then the accurate one should be adopted. The adoption of a new accurate calendar doesn't cause division any more than truth causes division. It's the hardness of heart of the old calendarists which causes division. They are the obstinate ones with pride lacking humility. They make a mountain out of a mole hill when they imagine something sinister in the change that doesn't exist. True faith does the opposite by removing mountains and making them into mole hills. Stop pacifying the cry babies. Wean them off mother's milk. It's time they eat meat. Stop greasing the squeaky wheel. If a wheel squeaks too much, it's time to change the wheel.
It is clear you do not understand the struggle against ecumenism or the exact reasons why the “new calendar” will never be adopted by those who are adhering to the Orthodox confession of Faith. If you think this debate is about what calendar is more accurate or less accurate, you haven’t even begun to dig at the root issue.
Have you read The Calendar Question by Fr Basil Sakkes? If not, I highly recommended it.
Thd Julian calendar is a week more accurate than Milankovic's calendar 2/3 of the year.
@@T_Wozna You are demonstrating my point. You imagine evil that doesn't exist. You make mountains out of mole hills. God forbid if the Church of the East celebrates Christmas on an accurate day with the Church of the West! God forbid if the Church of the East acknowledges one little point that the Church of the West got correct! Oh no, the Orthodox Church is becoming modernist like the West! Next thing you know, you will be submitting to papal infallibility. Is your pride so fragile that it can't admit to being wrong even on such a little matter as the accuracy of a date?
Problem is that Julian calendar is more accurate against the syderic (astronomical) year in comparison to Gregorian calendar. Now we have a problem - what do we want accuracy to be compared against.? Solar of Astronomical year.?
It could be that after you physically die time will not matter.
#NowYouKnow
8:39