With respect, I think your assessment on super saiyan 4 against super saiyan blue is off. Super saiyan 4 doesn't really have a set multiplier like the previous super saiyan forms do. Plus I noticed that you didn't factor in the increases to the power of super saiyan 4 during the super 17 and shadow dragon arcs. Theoretically, super saiyan 4 doesn't have a limit, but super saiyan blue technically does with Vegeta having the super saiyan blue evolution form that goes beyond super saiyan blue.
How about Super Saiyan Blue being applied to other forms of Super Saiyan. Super Saiyan 3 Blue can just be the third form with the blue skin applied, with a drastic decrease to the amount of energy Goku expends in this form, along with an immense increase to his power.
I prefer SS4 because it shows the Ozoru that lives within all Saiyans whether they have their tail or not. It's like the beast is being unleashed without full transformation
if super gets to a point where they try to adapt the GT story in a way that makes sense with what's happened in super, i feel like it'd be really interesting to have a god power version of super saiyan 4 since goku would realistically know how to make that happen. maybe they could finally have a super saiyan 5 after all this time that way
SS4 always been my favorite look wish they had just done that look instead of just hair color change because it shows them tapping into the inner primal power all sayins have
Video suggestion: to me, it always seemed like the "rules" for Saiyans was that the parents power at the time of conception of a baby influenced the baby's initial power level. At the start of DBZ, Gohan is already more powerful than any other human. Then, when Trunks and Goten are you children, they are able to become Super Saiyan. This is because Goku and Vegeta had become so incredibly powerful by the time their sons were conceived.
That'll probably be the case, but there are special cases like Paragus, who was a little stronger than Raditz, but his son was the Legendary Super Saiyan ,😁
@@justanotherlaid-backdude5297 in the defense of broly He was a mythical baby basically and was the legendary super sayain that was born every thousand years so it makes sense why he was so ridiculous even with a father like paragus
To cut this argument. WHIS already explained why he never allow Goku and Vegeta used any SSJ form, because as per Whis, its just a Booster to their real potential, and what he want Goku and Vegeta is to tap and master DIVINE form. And Whis stated that TRANSFORMATION is just as high as the small Tree that he pointed compared to the Tower on that particular scene which is how he defined the DIVINE FORM. Hence its pretty obvious that DIVINE FORM is FAR STRONGER than any NON DIVINE TRANSFORMATION
I always saw SS3 as the absolute limit of the traditional super saiyan forms. It reaches a point where the power amplification is too much for a saiyan's body to handle for more than a short time. The only ones that can use it longer are those who are dead and have infinite stamina in otherworld or fusions who's bodies have the durability of two saiyans combined. Super and GT both solved this problem in different ways. Super introduced God Ki which is simultaneously more powerful but also more compact/gentle than regular ki from what I understand. GT went the other direction and focused on the saiyan's body itself. I always saw SS4 as a more physical transformation than any of the other ones. A sort of compact oozaru form that can easily handle SS3's amplification and more without much strain because it has the density/durability of a giant ape. That was how I interpreted it anyway.
I still like SSJ4 more just based off the fact that it makes more sense as a transformation past SSJ3 and returns to the saiyan’s roots rather than just bringing in a different concept. It might be seen as lazy, just using old material they already have, but I think it’s better to return it rather than leave it back to the dust due to power-scaling…
What many fail to consider is that SSJ4 is not a multiplier. We try to compare forms, but there are no definite levels after Frieza. It's the fans that keep this power level debate going. All we know is who is POSSIBLY stronger than who based on bits of information. But in different universes, we just can't make the comparison. SSJ4 is my favorite transformation just based on design and the fact that he can maintain the transformation even while being knocked out, so it doesn't drain his ki like SSG or SSB...but that doesn't mean it is necessarily a STRONGER form. It just has an edge over it with stamina.
SSJ4's superior design set aside, it makes way more sense conceptually and feels like the ultimate pay off to Saiyan ability. The use of Oozaru's primal Saiyan power to control and focus SSJ's power and potential in a way they never could in just Super Saiyan forms. They came close to controlling SSJ in Ascended form during the Cell Saga, but SSJ4 uses Oozaru to finally gain ultimate control as well as using the unique power boost of the Oozaru transformation. It's amazing lore wise and makes so much sense, as well as just being an intimidating idea. Whereas God/SSJB is just weird. They fuse Saiyan ki and create a supernatural, deity Ki? How? Why would multiple Saiyans create the Ki of deities? It comes out of nowhere and makes no sense.
@@johnnycage6676 then why don't they do ssb2 and 3 and grade 2,3,4 heck do for each different colour with kaioken to make it even more cheaper to do but still charge money
Also worth noting that in the Manga version of Heroes SS4 Xeno Goku states that Capsule Corp SSB Goku is superior and didn't break a sweat during their fight while the promotional anime made them look like equals but this material isn't canon anyway. I personally think that SS4 Goku in the Shadow Dragon Saga should be able to compete with SSB Goku at least in the Universe 6 Tournament arc not counting Kaioken of course as GT Goku got stronger as well during the course of GT.
just base goku 100 year later at the end of GT is above SSG and SSB is delusional & in the beginning of GT goku was training with UUb on his base form and we know who UUB is the reincarnation of kid Buu who later bacame Majuub
1:19 *DEBUNK* Super Saiyan 3 is bringing out the limits. However for Super Saiyan 4 brings you to your utmost limits. All the transformations to provide multipliers but they are to break your limits and give you a new set of limits. Super Saiyan 4 is the utmost limit out of all Super Saiyan transformations. Think of it like the atmospheres in the planet earth. Super Saiyan 4 would be the exosphere which is the utmost limit of our planet. While Super Saiyan 3 is like the thermosphere or something. Another but higher limit but not the utmost limit of Earth.
@@luigimarie5205neither is super though, it’s different timelines, parallel universes. Nothing is canon at this point but if we wanna add up the story then GT is more aligned then super is as GT is tied to the movies and the end of z
You missed one thing about Super baby vs Ssj3 Goku. Goku actually managed to punch Baby Vegeta directly in the face, and baby just tanked the hit with a smile, then sending Goku to the ground with a punch, and when Goku tried to fight back again he dropped to his base and realised he cannot maintain this power in his child body. This means that Baby Vegeta was WAY Stronger than Ssj3 Goku at that time . Even when Goku came back with his tail and he had no problems with this form anymore, Baby Vegeta states that he didn't get any stronger, he just managed to maintain the transformation.
@@Jscallen13 A fusion timer depends on the amount of power it uses. The more power, the shorter the timer is. SSJB Gogeta at arguably full power trying to kill Broly didn't affect the timer, while a suppressed SSJ4 Gogeta without using limit breaker (GT Version) cut it in half. Now, you could argue that the only reason why SSJ4 Gogeta's fusion was so short is because of the Big Bang Kamehameha, however that would mean that that attack had more power than a FP SSJB Gogeta, which would mean a limit breaker (GT Version) SSJ4 Gogeta would have much, much more power than a FP SSJB Gogeta by just existing, and not even using any attacks.
Agreed. On a side note, ssj4 would make more sense if akira stuck with the original ssj3 which had a gold tail. All monkey forms look the best. So much better than the cotton candy blue hair.
I like SS4 because it felt earned. Goku having to struggle with his primal Sayian powers as Ozoru, then finding his consciousness inside the beast to unlock the final form of Super Sayian. It just feels more in line with what being a Sayian is all about. SSG was given to Goku (Yes with training he was able to master the transformation), plus the transformation looked lazy from a visual standpoint. SSGSS didn't help either. Blue hair doesn't visually look powerful, unlike a sayian/ape hybrid warrior.
Ssj4 didnt feel earned at all, it came out of nowhere with no backstory on what the form is. Ssg didnt feel earned either and Goku even shows how he feels about the way he achieved it, while ssb was indeed earned as goku and vegeta needed to learn how to control god ki in their base forms without leaking their energy.
I just think they should embrace the form. The manga has been focusing on saiyan pride with Bardock a lot lately maybe have some conversation where Vegeta remembers Goku never learned to control his oozaru form so they go in the time chamber to do it safely and instead of going golden by turning ssj he turns into a more slender red oozaru using god ki and then basically has the same hair as ssj4 gogeta and the pupils are red.
Nah, red pupils would ruin the ssj4 look. It’s kinda like with super broly’s eyes in his wrath form, which I’m hoping they tie to ssj4 due to it also being ozaruu in base
Everybody: SSJ4’s concept goes back to the Saiyan roots of primal power, that’s why it’s better than the god forms Me, an intellectual: UI and MUI uses martial arts concepts, it goes all the way back to OG DB, where _literally the entire franchise started from_
Yea but that doesn’t mean anything since martial arts is something not everyone but most ppl can master I mean master roshi did it in the manga where as ssj4 is exclusive to the saiyans and bringing out the savage nature of a saiyan
And you clearly being an “ intellectual “ would know that going to your roots means your going wayyyyy wayyyy back from the beginning of the person’s birth so In actuality ssj4 predates mui
If you actually were a intellectual you would have known goku already learn ui technique already by mr. Popo but your lazy ass writer forgot all about it in z. All he did was make it a special form.
I completely disagree with you realistically, Super Saiyan 4 is stronger than blue, and that's just your opinion. Thank goodness for that matter. And Super Saiyan 4 is not a 10 times multiplier and that is actually a headcanon multiplier made by fans and this is where it makes your entire Theory and review completely reliable because you just base it off of a random article that is not based on anything official or facts this should destroy any credibility of your review. it was even stated that Super Saiyan 4 multiplier is limit breaker rather a multiplier in the means of multiplication of a transformation, not one Warriors breaking their physical limits like suggesting in super. This is why you don't believe anything just on the internet especially articles that are meant to diminish Super Saiyan 4 power I seen their statistics I seen how they diminish his power basing it on the Kamehameha x 10 and not actually the power of a Super Saiyan 4 they make headcanon to try to prove Super Saiyan 4 is weaker but in reality they don't use anything actually truly official coming from the creators themselves dragon-ball-gt whether Super Saiyan 4 stronger or not.
@@richardsmall8940like Gogeta base? Or also in blue? Because if you put him in base it’s not exactly fair. If anything they are equals because they are still from the same people unless you are using different time periods
@@richardsmall8940 that’s a fair point but I don’t exactly wanna get brought into the whole vegito vs gogeta tribe thing, I’ll ask questions but I ain’t gonna pick a side. However I do think they both look amazing
Can’t forget about the amount of training from gt goku he spent a lot of time training before gt saga began and he also took energy from all the z fighters twice during the gt saga once with baby and again with omega shenron
I would agree to disagree. Yes Dragonball Heroes is a game, but that doesn't mean it just breaks the entire storyboard. If they depict an SSJ4 rivalling an SSJB, it's because remember GT is an entirely different universe than Super. Not canon doesn't mean that power levels aren't valid in their respective universe. In Super, SSJ4 was never achieved, this doesn't exist. In GT, god ki was never developed, thus doesn't exist. Yes, if we saw a base GT Goku fight a base Super Goku, no fancy hair on either side, the GT Goku would likely win merely from the higher base power level, up until Super Goku pulls out UI.
I wish SSJ4 was canon. Maybe in the future when super ends and the whole GT sequence hopefully is remade since Super takes place right after Buu saga/Before End of Z+GT
So I like SSJ4 more because it looks cooler to me. However, it's feats compared to SSJ Blue's feats clearly make it weaker. Yes I know Super Dragonball Heros is a thing but that show isn't Cannon and just meant to promote a game.
Personally me I prefer the look of SSJ 4 it just looks way better but with that being said if SSj blue is stronger than SSG 4 then dragon ball gt is no longer canon because if they try to transition in to gt later on ssj4 would be a downgrade not an upgrade
I am beyond fed up with all these so-called "Goku fans" who can't seem to understand the true power of SSJ4 Goku from GT. This form of Goku is a god among men, a true warrior with power that is beyond comprehension. The Kamehameha x10 is not just a simple move, it's a weapon of mass destruction that can literally bend reality itself (base GT Goku destroyed a dimension with his Kamehameha). DBS Super can barely shoot a normal Kamehameha, let alone a Kamehameha x10. And don't even get me started on how he would destroy Beerus in a fight. But yet, all these weak-minded fanboys continue to push their DBS Super and SSJ Blue nonsense, like they're somehow comparable to SSJ4 Goku. It's an insult to the true form of Goku, and it needs to stop. If you truly want to see the true power of Goku, then look no further than SSJ4 Goku from GT. Anyone who says otherwise is just plain ignorant and doesn't deserve to call themselves a fan of Dragon Ball.
SSJ4 is by far the cooler transformation, but GT SSJ4 is no where near the power of SSJB especially now. However, if you did include Dragon Ball Hero's SSJ4 that is a different story entirely.
@@Blueoney True but that's kind of the point of SSB. A Super Saiyan version of a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God is all SSB is. It's a recolor because it essentially is just Super Saiyan.
God and Blue, and Blue primarily, are just silly. Really hate the direction it went. But alas. SSJ3 and 4 will remain my favorites. SSJ4 could've become almost a new base form with different powerup directions from there. Missed opportunity. And.. Toriyama designed it!! Should've never been abandoned.
I feel this argument is weakened by the fact that GT had an easily navigable scale here to maintain some heirarchy, but in the case of SSG Goku, there is no calibration. He goes from so hopelessly outclassed to standing his ground in an instant. There is no way to guage anything other than his offhand Potara comment, which is shaky at best. It's frustrating to watch you break down SSJ4 by numbers, and then just sort of handwave the SSGB argument.
where was that confirmed??? his base at the start of gt was stronger than ssj3 with Rildo being said to be stronger than "buu" (i assume kid buu but if its super buu thats so much). @@an-average-box
Ssj4 is stronger because it gains Golden Ape as it's place holder... thats amount of physical strength compact into a smaller form is insane and the ability to use moves like gogeta and resist elements really adds up ...not mentioning it goes up in power later like full power mode and possibly Red power mode as seen with ssj4 Gogeta...just having a tail increases ones power to top it
ok so. For your Super Saiyan God unless I missed something, you only said "Super Saiyan God was far more then what Goku could have expected." I dont think that much explains it. Though I could have just missed something while zoning out. I feel like you really cant use that to definitely give god form a multiplyer. The only two ways I think you can scale are thorugh fusion and the universal feat. But both are invalid, since we don't know how big the Dragon Ball Universe is and Fusion is as strong as the plot demands it too be. Not to mention, Beerus was holding back supremely so we cant use him as a Power Scale. For example, If you use "fusion" as an example i could immediately debunk it by mentioning that BASE GOGETA is on par if not stronger then SSBlue Goku and Vegeta. making it a higher multiplier then God Form. Too make things worse, GOD KI has not helped our heroes at all outside of UI. Because basically every villian they've fought doesn't have it outside of black and-oh wait he was also stronger.. what I'm saying is, I don't think you can definitely say which one of these forms are stronger because at the end of the day, their is no confirmed multiplier, and the Power Scaling in GT/Super is absolute garbage, so it's hard to even scale. Now I do believe that SSBlue is no contest, I'm more so saying that you could make the argument that 4 is at least rivaling god due to the inconsistency's in Super. I would like too see your opinion on which form is better overall (my opinion is SS4 due to it's adaptabillity and seemingly increased Zenkai), and calcing SS4's higher form's to SSG/SSB. After all, LIMIT BREAKER is SS4 with God Ki. However at the end of the day, I do belive as Dragon Ball fan's we should be happy to give our opinions on these forms and just have fun. Some people get so serious over power scaling and really it's just some fun to have. And at teh end of the day, it really comes down to that base form power. I mean who know's, maybe one day Akira Toriama will just randomly say "oh hey, SS4 is actually stronger then SSBlue Evolution". We never really know.
Toriama forgot Saiyan's have tails and hated gt so it's not likely he's going to come out and say a form he never wanted to create is stronger than one he did want to create
@@chriswilder9719 Their is litterally nothing to suggest he hated GT. The only thing that has ever been stated by Toriama and GT officially is in the kanzenshuu. where the only thing he commented on that wasn't factual is: "In particular, the animator Nakatsuru-kun is so skilled, and has such understanding of the peculiarities of my drawings, that there have been times that even I have been like, "Did I draw this character design, or did Nakatsuru-kun?," not being able to tell the difference. For example, "Super Saiyan 4," which appears in GT, was Nakatsuru-kun's design. The image I drew above is the likeness I made after looking at it. Did I do a good job? If you are able, along with me, to enjoy watching the original Dragon Ball's grand side-story Dragon Ball GT, you will be pleased." so stop trying to spread misinformation, and do your research. Besides that it's as I said, we shouldn't worry about power scaling too seriously, and just enjoy the show. Toriama made Base Form Broly go from getting bodied by Vegeta, to being on par with God Goku, to being on Par with base Goku, and then being onpar with Blue Goku and Vegeta. Power scaling is literally impossible to do seriously.
Him not hating gt is news to me as I have only ever heard he hated it and that he wanted dragon ball to end after the Frieza saga. I have no issue enjoying them. I love all of the series and while I do think gt is the weakest I still enjoy it immensely. I was only trying to state that someone is going to be more partial to something they created and wanted to create compared to something they created due to contractual obligations. If he was as in love with ss4 as he is with blue than yes he will never say what one is stronger
Ssjb was actually my favorite and I thought it has to be stronger but if you look at the newest broly movie you can clearly see that ssj4 is by far greater than ssjb. Broly is said to use his oozarus powers while still maintaining the human form. That means ssj broly is actually a ssj oozaru or better golden oozaru and ssjb both Goku and vegeta stood no chance at all. Broly easily tanked a combined attack from them both. I assume the lssj isn’t all too special either perhaps it’s just a more evolved form of the normal ssj or just a different path since we saw vegetas hair turning green for a second so perhaps the lssj isn’t that much of a power up against the normal ssj. Maybe it’s a more mastered version of the normal ssj but I don’t think it’s as of a multipler as ssj2 would be against ssj. After all ssj2 it 2x as strong as The normal ssj. Always thought broly was this special warrior that existed only once every 1000 years for a reason but taking all the information together he probably isn’t. Yes maybe his green oozaru (lssj) is more evolved than the normal ssj and maybe no other sayjan can become a green oozaru but ssj4 is still a thing at least in gt and going by that logic ssj4 should be stronger than lssj or maybe the same
you got me pissed reading this comment, First broly didnt use ssj4 also clearly hes strong because hes the legendary super saiyan, Second how in the living world would that be a more mastered form of ssj if he just got it? Whatever logic your using stop it my brain hurts from trying to see your pov its a non cannon form yea it was pretty cool but the reason broly eyes be full white is he not in control of his power and he does have his tail so think about the future db movies broly gonna be in it. i dont wanna spoil ya or anyone else who reads this but stay tuned.
Isn't goku in the Manga being told to focus more on his sayajin routes? Is it possible he will learn that he can go further using regular ki than he can using god ki? Like what if God ki in a mortal has its limits so Goku later abandons the God ki and focuses on regular ki and then unlocks the SSJ4 in GT?
Why would God ki have limits even tho its superior to regular ki users. Whis taught Goku to stop copying and to find his own advantage for ultra instinct.
@@godspeedforce9371 because he would so powerful from that he "must become a god" himself which would mean goku would not get to fight anyone he wants to, which he would hate.
@@godspeedforce9371 he could do that though without a dobt. Super takes place between end of buu saga and the uub tournament in the end of Z. So the Power scaling of ssj4 would probably be buffed If it was made canon 😭
I saw a post about this debate, and while everyone was trying to prove their point about what forms stonger, i just put it down to whats stronger? An apprentice saiyan god? or a Saiyan's true potential? (Or something like that)
Good video. But maybe you did not take into fact that the Base Form Goku is stronger than DBZ or DBS Base Form Goku. Events of DBGT occur after DBZ and DBS occur right before Uub Saga/ending of DBZ, which means that the Base Form Goku in DBGT is far superior to the Base Form Goku in DBS/DBZ. I think from that POV, the multipliers would vary and we might get different results. I understand the video is 2 years old and some of the DBS revelations of Uub are just recent developments, but I'd love to see a remake of this video!
I've always placed ssj4 in regards of power as significantly less than ssj god let alone ssj blue ( I disagree slightly with your ssj4 calculations but otherwise this was excellently well done)
4 fully acknowledges what Saiyans are. It's the perfect end for a Saiyan's journey of power. One has to completely master the power of the Oozaru within to achieve it. The "God Forms" and UI are cheesy by comparison. Lest we forget SSJ4 Gogeta. An immensely powerful version.
Hey guys and History of DB!!!!! See these two transformations compared here too! As fans, I'm sure you will appreciate!!!! Type in youtube: ALL 7TH ANNIVERSARY SA ANIMATIONS. You will enjoy both Gogetas :3
I disagree for 1 main reason, dbs Broly's power comes from Oozaru and he was able to keep up with ssb no problem. Whether that highlights the absurdity of power scaling in super or not, since ssj4's power is from controlling the power of Oozaru as well then I think it's stronger than blue. I like ssj4, but honestly it just doesn't make sense that it pans out this way. As much as I liked the Broly movie I thought it was kinda nonsensical that monkey power meant he could keep up with pseudo-gods. Maybe they'll build on that and explain exactly why Oozaru grants sooooo much potential, power from a true God and the potential of raw Saiyan power or something idk. But by the logic that dbs Broly setup I gotta say ssj4 is stronger or at least matches the base power of ssb.
@@kevinerbs2778Goku literally did a SSB Kaioken x20 Kamehameha in the show and before you say it didn't amplify his Kamehameha when the first time Goku and Vegeta clashed their Kamehameha and Galick Gun Goku had to to x4 to make his blast stronger proving that Kaioken effects strength
Now I get it why Broly is so powerful considering its base form even he is a baby is too high. Transforming means he will have a exponential increase of power.
I mean, it's really easy lmao Talking about the transformation itself: -> Ssj4 = Ozaru in Ssj Since Ozaru is a x10 and ssj is a x50, ssj is mathematically a x500. This is consistent with the other ssj (Ssj1 x50, Ssj2 x50x2, Ssj3 x50x2x3) -> Ssj Blue = Ssj God in ssj Since both 4 and Blue are the ssj form of another transformation, we only need to know if ssj god is stronger or not than an ozaru...we know by a fact god is stronger than (which is a x300) In other hands, ssj blue is AT LEAST a x300x50, that means a x1500 (this is assuming ssj3 and ssj god are equals, and we know god is stronger than a lot) In conclusion, ssj4 is a x500 and blue is more than a x1500
I ultimately prefer Super Saiyan 4. It's my favorite transformation in all of Dragon Ball. The transformations in Super just haven't really impressed me all that much. They are cool and whatnot, but they haven't really blown my mind. Vegeta's Ultra Ego form is the first to kinda really get me interested, honestly. But yeah, they need to make Super Saiyan 4 canon again. Maybe give it to Broly first and then have Goku, Vegeta and the others achieve the transformation.
Buuhan was already threatening the universe and before him Even second form Frieza was stated that he would destroy the universe And in gt There are many feats that can be scaled to universal Ontop of all that That does not make super sayain god universal It makes Goku universal We don't know how close Goku was to destroying the universe in base alone or how close he was in ssj3 The super sayain god does not have an official multiplier so all we can guess is it boosted him high enough Goku was accidentally destroying it ontop of that because he couldn't get ahold of that power which could imply they were already at that level Especially if you wanna really push it and mention Buuhans feat and use the argument that kid Buu is stronger which some people do And has many statements in show about it Basically just because ssg can make Goku do it dosent make the multipler "Universal" he just got enough strength ontop of his base to do it So someone with a power level of 1 going god would probably not be blowing up the universe
I think super saiyan 4 is weaker in terms of raw power output but super saiyan 4 will win in a drawn out battle if the ssj4 user plays their cards right and conserves stamina against a ssb user
@@sithmaster6435 you must have read a false guide and here's my logic behind that: Considering SSG Goku pushed Beerus to 70% and SSJ2 Enraged Vegeta pushed Beerus to 10% you're better off multiplying Vegeta's entire power level with that enraged SSJ2 times 7 which is probably a lot closer to the SSG Multiplier funny enough. Before you are that his power level shouldn't be multiplied and only the form should be multiplied if Vegeta's power level was 1 enraged SSJ2 would've done nothing and Beerus could breathe on him and he'd die so for it to logically make sense you'd have to multiply Vegeta's max power times 7
Super saiyan blue is not a true super saiyan form. Tired of people calling it super saiyan form. Super saiyan blue is just a Super saiyan warrior who tapped into a GOD power Ki and is borrowing God powers as a boost. Super saiyan 4 is a true super saiyan. Super saiyan 4 is technically saiyan ape powers with full control and speed. Because saiyan ape is a form that is not controlled but just huge power being throw around. And there is another form that is a true saiyan and thats Broly who is a true legendary super saiyan. Technically legendary super saiyan is the opposite of a saiyan ape. Legendary super saiyan is the power of the saiyan ape and still remain human form, but has no control of their powers like Broly who goes rampage.
I still say SSJ4 is more powerful. SSJ blue and red are just ALWAYS being overpowered soo easily. Goku (in ssj blue) was man handled by Kale in SSJ 1!!! Goku needed Ultra Instincts to defeat Kefla (which was a fusion of 2 ssj 2 rookies).
And you only wished that SSJ4 was stronger because of how cool you think it looks 💀This video is here for a reason, and there is evidence to prove the conclusion. I even have my own to back up why SSJB is stronger, if only by a little.
@@lastcorridorsans well actually you could argue it based on how complete the design is where it is meant to be the ultimate design vs. Everything else such as 💙 is still just a Super Saiyan for a soldier is logic and reason they are but of course that's still not entirely to valid. But of course based on statements from guides and scaling from the show, it definitely is so much stronger than Super Saiyan 💙 where it is even stronger than Master Ultra Instinct.
Dragon ball heroes basically answered this question. Gt goku/ xeno goku are from different timelines than the super version of goku. Ssj4 vegito was stronger than ssb kaioken vegito on prison planet. And limit breaker ssj4 is close to ultra instinct level but loses
*FALSE* Super Saiyan God is never stated to be stronger than vegito. He just so happened to realize that he needed more power than Super Saiyan 3 Vegito and wanted to bring the Super Saiyan God to earth. However none of that means that Super Saiyan God was stronger than Super Saiyan 3 fusion. When Goku went back to Earth to do the super saiyan God ritual, he was getting an energy boost as stated by Shenron. As a fire he would know he would become very much stronger than ever before thanks to that alone. He even did it again after failing to become a Super Saiyan God the first time which means he had two very large boost of energy stacked on top of each other and Super Saiyan God which surpasses Super Saiyan 3 Vegito collectively. Even after the field ritual he stated that he still doesn't feel like a god after agreeing his energy has been the highest it has ever been. Goku never stated he had not surpassed his goal of surpassing Super Saiyan 3 fusion. He was only concerned about being a god. Knowing how old is fights turn out, he would know that he would just break his limits during the fight anyways and try to use the depth of his Newfound God powers. There is no evidence that Super Saiyan God is stronger than Super Saiyan 3 fusion. Let alone metamoran Fusion where we see Gogeta stronger than Super Saiyan Wrath Broly who is stronger than Super Saiyan Blue Goku and Vegeta together with their signature moves.
I think ssj4 is stronger because in battle of the gods, vegeta was putting hands on beerus while in ssj2 after beerus hurt bulma but when goku fought beerus he was in ssj3 and stood no chance. since ssj3 is supposed to be stronger than ssj2, and ssj4>both ssj2 and 3 i think ssj4 goku could probably box with beerus. also gt takes place 10 years after the original series whereas super takes place 4 years after. I say this to say that base gt goku is probably stronger than base super goku because gt goku has had more time to train so theoretically ssj4 should be stronger because it multiplies gt gokus power who should already stronger than super goku.
@@Kingoio222 ssj4 and god don’t have any official multipliers and ssj rage hasn’t appeared in any other media and isn’t even in the manga so we don’t know shit about it
Considering SSG Goku pushed Beerus to 70% and SSJ2 Enraged Vegeta pushed Beerus to 10% you're better off multiplying Vegeta's entire power level with that enraged SSJ2 times 7 which is probably a lot closer to the SSG Multiplier funny enough. Before you are that his power level shouldn't be multiplied and only the form should be multiplied if Vegeta's power level was 1 enraged SSJ2 would've done nothing and Beerus could breathe on him and he'd die so for it to logically make sense you'd have to multiply Vegeta's max power times 7
Truth is that Goku Super Saiyan blue was given a run for his money by Broly who was actually told to have the same strengths as a power up great ape just one which means that Goku Super 4 who is 10 times stronger than a single grade ape would be stronger than Super Saiyan blue but this cannot be determined due to the fact that we're not giving exact power level difference
Actually Broly does have the same strength as a Great Ape. In the movie when he fought against Vegeta, Vegeta transformed into a Super Saiyan which gave him a little edge against Broly. Then he transformed into Super Saiyan God which he easily dominate Broly in power. But when Broly transformed into his Wrathful form, that’s where his strength of the great ape comes from. Another people shouldn’t forget is that Broly has a higher base power level than Goku and Vegeta. So that doesn’t mean that Super Saiyan 4 is stronger than Blue. The only way it would be stronger if the user have a higher base power level than the user with the super Saiyan Blue
Goku, even without fusion, is stronger than SSJ4 Goku from GT. Some people may not agree with that, but they also can't fathom how much stronger Goku got at the very beginning of Super versus how strong Goku was at the beginning of GT. How strong Goku was off rip is completely unquantifiable. It was some time since the battle with Kid Buu, but there is no way of measuring how strong Goku got. It's possible he was as strong as GT Goku. Who knows? But to low ball it or make it easier, let's say he was marginally stronger. Not by much. He went from being low multi-galaxy at best to nigh Universal, if not just simply Universal. Even if you wanted to jerk SSJ3 Goku to Mid Multigalaxy, the difference between that and Universal is hard to fathom. GT Goku off rip was about as strong as SSJ3 was against Kid Buu, or at least, that is what is believed, generally. Let's say he was 400x stronger. That would still make him low Multi Galaxy, even as SSJ3. There is no multiplier for SSJ4, so all you can really go with are context clues, but considering there are roughly two trillion galaxies in the observable Universe alone, even if you make SSJ4 Goku a 500,000x multiplier from SSJ3, he would still be weaker. Maybe as fusion? because it's basically a plot based multiplier. But the scaling in Super just took everything to a much higher level. I don't like it, but it is what it is.
I absolutely love the Super Saiyan 4 design, I think it's one of the only good things from GT. But no unfortunately Super Saiyan Blue is far superior to Super Saiyan 4. For the love of Red... I mean God, it's the Super Saiyan form of a Super Saiyan God.
I was just wondering, why not use a standard base from for goku for each? Using kid gt goku vs. super goku will all ways make super goku stronger. As kid, goku was so much weaker in that form.
They used a satellite machine bulma built in GT for legendary Ozaru ssj4 smh … while dbs (cannon) trained 24/7 and just got colored hair…they honestly should give dbs ssj4 with ssj rage , limit breaker, ultra instinct, PUI/MUI, and ultra ego etc…
What I,ve learnt about DB transformationes is that the more they transform, the weaker they are. C,mon, in prior DBZ episodes, some characters (i.e Vegeta and Nappa) were capable of obliterating a planet. Now ssj god and beyond are barely able to shoot beams that wipe only a mountain. It,s nonsense
I don't think that's part of the plot, it's just how they made it, and I'm not sure if you even watched DBZ or knew it from watching shorts and all, but that first sentence in your comment is not true at all. Goku and Gohan in Cell Saga stay in SSJ form to get used to it in their everyday life in order to ascend to a SSJ2. By the time he fought Cell, he fully mastered the SSJ transformation.
Super saiyan 4 is basically a controlled icari (probably spelled wrong) or humanoid ape form . Which could be stronger because broly Super icari form is overwhelmingly powerful
Choose your side! TeamSS4 or TeamSSB!?!
With respect, I think your assessment on super saiyan 4 against super saiyan blue is off. Super saiyan 4 doesn't really have a set multiplier like the previous super saiyan forms do. Plus I noticed that you didn't factor in the increases to the power of super saiyan 4 during the super 17 and shadow dragon arcs. Theoretically, super saiyan 4 doesn't have a limit, but super saiyan blue technically does with Vegeta having the super saiyan blue evolution form that goes beyond super saiyan blue.
@@StareachValcin this is false.
@@cp37373 no it isn't.
How about Super Saiyan Blue being applied to other forms of Super Saiyan. Super Saiyan 3 Blue can just be the third form with the blue skin applied, with a drastic decrease to the amount of energy Goku expends in this form, along with an immense increase to his power.
any theory as to why goku stopped using blue in favor of ssj4. Assuming that GT is cannon and takes place after z and super?
I prefer SS4 because it shows the Ozoru that lives within all Saiyans whether they have their tail or not. It's like the beast is being unleashed without full transformation
Well you got what you were wishing for with gohan beast lol
SS4 limit breaker is strong
Little did you know you predicted the description of “beast gohan”
I would give more physical defensive and strength to ss4 but blue should have more speed, ki and slightly better super moves
is primal instinctual?
When I saw SS4 the 1st time it sent chills down my spine but when I saw the God Forms I was like meh
You were probably high/drunk then
I agree but only with blue cos it came too soon god need more time to itself so god didn't get the chance to send shivers down my spine
@@Spooder-Man_ lmfao
@@cpt.arctourus7950 Normal God looks way better than Blue in my opinion.
@@GoofyPoptart Am I wrong though? How do shivers get sent down your spine after watching someone grow red pubes...
if super gets to a point where they try to adapt the GT story in a way that makes sense with what's happened in super, i feel like it'd be really interesting to have a god power version of super saiyan 4 since goku would realistically know how to make that happen. maybe they could finally have a super saiyan 5 after all this time that way
They would ruin the story
@@theautisticbeaver4885 step closer to DragonBall af , all for it lol
@@theautisticbeaver4885 yeah it's DBs job to ruin story
@@genesismultiverse4896 more like whoever is in charge of dbs
SS4 always been my favorite look wish they had just done that look instead of just hair color change because it shows them tapping into the inner primal power all sayins have
Same I always loved ss4 looks so amazing
Video suggestion: to me, it always seemed like the "rules" for Saiyans was that the parents power at the time of conception of a baby influenced the baby's initial power level. At the start of DBZ, Gohan is already more powerful than any other human. Then, when Trunks and Goten are you children, they are able to become Super Saiyan. This is because Goku and Vegeta had become so incredibly powerful by the time their sons were conceived.
That'll probably be the case, but there are special cases like Paragus, who was a little stronger than Raditz, but his son was the Legendary Super Saiyan ,😁
@@justanotherlaid-backdude5297 much stringer then raditz. I'm broly movie his power level was over 4000. Raditz wasn't even 2000
@@justanotherlaid-backdude5297 in the defense of broly
He was a mythical baby basically and was the legendary super sayain that was born every thousand years so it makes sense why he was so ridiculous even with a father like paragus
Gohan was far stronger than goku was tho at 4 years old
Oh this is a great theory makes sense for sayin biology too stronger warriors make stronger progeny
To cut this argument. WHIS already explained why he never allow Goku and Vegeta used any SSJ form, because as per Whis, its just a Booster to their real potential, and what he want Goku and Vegeta is to tap and master DIVINE form. And Whis stated that TRANSFORMATION is just as high as the small Tree that he pointed compared to the Tower on that particular scene which is how he defined the DIVINE FORM. Hence its pretty obvious that DIVINE FORM is FAR STRONGER than any NON DIVINE TRANSFORMATION
I always saw SS3 as the absolute limit of the traditional super saiyan forms. It reaches a point where the power amplification is too much for a saiyan's body to handle for more than a short time. The only ones that can use it longer are those who are dead and have infinite stamina in otherworld or fusions who's bodies have the durability of two saiyans combined.
Super and GT both solved this problem in different ways. Super introduced God Ki which is simultaneously more powerful but also more compact/gentle than regular ki from what I understand. GT went the other direction and focused on the saiyan's body itself. I always saw SS4 as a more physical transformation than any of the other ones. A sort of compact oozaru form that can easily handle SS3's amplification and more without much strain because it has the density/durability of a giant ape. That was how I interpreted it anyway.
I still like SSJ4 more just based off the fact that it makes more sense as a transformation past SSJ3 and returns to the saiyan’s roots rather than just bringing in a different concept. It might be seen as lazy, just using old material they already have, but I think it’s better to return it rather than leave it back to the dust due to power-scaling…
it wasnt cannon lol
@@Shykillerkrisgaming it was canon until toriyama created super
@@eionthegod It still cannon when Toriyama added more time line bullshit with another "future trunks" arc for super
How is that lazy? It's called consistency, something even Toriyama himself doesn't have, because he forgets about his own creations all the time.
What many fail to consider is that SSJ4 is not a multiplier. We try to compare forms, but there are no definite levels after Frieza. It's the fans that keep this power level debate going. All we know is who is POSSIBLY stronger than who based on bits of information. But in different universes, we just can't make the comparison. SSJ4 is my favorite transformation just based on design and the fact that he can maintain the transformation even while being knocked out, so it doesn't drain his ki like SSG or SSB...but that doesn't mean it is necessarily a STRONGER form. It just has an edge over it with stamina.
SSJ4's superior design set aside, it makes way more sense conceptually and feels like the ultimate pay off to Saiyan ability. The use of Oozaru's primal Saiyan power to control and focus SSJ's power and potential in a way they never could in just Super Saiyan forms. They came close to controlling SSJ in Ascended form during the Cell Saga, but SSJ4 uses Oozaru to finally gain ultimate control as well as using the unique power boost of the Oozaru transformation. It's amazing lore wise and makes so much sense, as well as just being an intimidating idea.
Whereas God/SSJB is just weird. They fuse Saiyan ki and create a supernatural, deity Ki? How? Why would multiple Saiyans create the Ki of deities? It comes out of nowhere and makes no sense.
It actually does makes sense since divine ki is different to normal ki. Divine ki can give anyone great boost to their overall stats.
They get divine ki through rituals and training. Does it makes sense now?
@@laxurasx120no 😂 it’s just a easy cop out to sell more toys
Yeah it's diamond compare to a mess of drawing and bad drawings
@@johnnycage6676 then why don't they do ssb2 and 3 and grade 2,3,4 heck do for each different colour with kaioken to make it even more cheaper to do but still charge money
Where tf r all your subscribers man, should be half a mil.
Never saw it that way, nice vid mate!
Ssj4 is cause it multiply the user's attributes and potential to the max while ssb has the ssj multiplier so it's ssj just blue
Also worth noting that in the Manga version of Heroes SS4 Xeno Goku states that Capsule Corp SSB Goku is superior and didn't break a sweat during their fight while the promotional anime made them look like equals but this material isn't canon anyway.
I personally think that SS4 Goku in the Shadow Dragon Saga should be able to compete with SSB Goku at least in the Universe 6 Tournament arc not counting Kaioken of course as GT Goku got stronger as well during the course of GT.
just base goku 100 year later at the end of GT is above SSG and SSB is delusional & in the beginning of GT goku was training with UUb on his base form and we know who UUB is the reincarnation of kid Buu who later bacame Majuub
Moron that’s power not their form multiplier
Hey my guy, awesome content, and hello from another UK DBtuber!! Liked and Subbed :) You're doing really well and I mean that!
Thanks so much 😊
1:19 *DEBUNK*
Super Saiyan 3 is bringing out the limits. However for Super Saiyan 4 brings you to your utmost limits. All the transformations to provide multipliers but they are to break your limits and give you a new set of limits. Super Saiyan 4 is the utmost limit out of all Super Saiyan transformations.
Think of it like the atmospheres in the planet earth. Super Saiyan 4 would be the exosphere which is the utmost limit of our planet. While Super Saiyan 3 is like the thermosphere or something. Another but higher limit but not the utmost limit of Earth.
I prefer SS4. Probably cuz GT is more Nostalgic :P
I agree! Nostalgia does like to play a big part in things! ha
Ssj4 is not canon
@@luigimarie5205 I wasn't saying it was...
I get yh black metal nazgul
@@luigimarie5205neither is super though, it’s different timelines, parallel universes. Nothing is canon at this point but if we wanna add up the story then GT is more aligned then super is as GT is tied to the movies and the end of z
You missed one thing about Super baby vs Ssj3 Goku. Goku actually managed to punch Baby Vegeta directly in the face, and baby just tanked the hit with a smile, then sending Goku to the ground with a punch, and when Goku tried to fight back again he dropped to his base and realised he cannot maintain this power in his child body. This means that Baby Vegeta was WAY Stronger than Ssj3 Goku at that time . Even when Goku came back with his tail and he had no problems with this form anymore, Baby Vegeta states that he didn't get any stronger, he just managed to maintain the transformation.
what episode is that?
I think 4 matches SSG. Blue should be stronger than both.
Fusion disproves that.
@@onlyinohiobruh fusion is a power multiplier in itself. We’re still trying figure out which one of that is stronger.
@@Jscallen13 A fusion timer depends on the amount of power it uses. The more power, the shorter the timer is.
SSJB Gogeta at arguably full power trying to kill Broly didn't affect the timer, while a suppressed SSJ4 Gogeta without using limit breaker (GT Version) cut it in half.
Now, you could argue that the only reason why SSJ4 Gogeta's fusion was so short is because of the Big Bang Kamehameha,
however that would mean that that attack had more power than a FP SSJB Gogeta, which would mean a limit breaker (GT Version) SSJ4 Gogeta would have much, much more power than a FP SSJB Gogeta by just existing, and not even using any attacks.
@@onlyinohiobruhmoron
@@onlyinohiobruh 🤣🤣🤣bro you funny as hell
Your logic is a glitch
When it comes to broly having SSJ4 alongside his legendary super saiyan power, yeah I guess
Agreed. On a side note, ssj4 would make more sense if akira stuck with the original ssj3 which had a gold tail. All monkey forms look the best. So much better than the cotton candy blue hair.
Los Fans del SSJ4 Llorando eso me da alegria
I like SS4 because it felt earned. Goku having to struggle with his primal Sayian powers as Ozoru, then finding his consciousness inside the beast to unlock the final form of Super Sayian. It just feels more in line with what being a Sayian is all about. SSG was given to Goku (Yes with training he was able to master the transformation), plus the transformation looked lazy from a visual standpoint. SSGSS didn't help either. Blue hair doesn't visually look powerful, unlike a sayian/ape hybrid warrior.
Ssj4 didnt feel earned at all, it came out of nowhere with no backstory on what the form is.
Ssg didnt feel earned either and Goku even shows how he feels about the way he achieved it, while ssb was indeed earned as goku and vegeta needed to learn how to control god ki in their base forms without leaking their energy.
@@godspeedforce9371uper Saiyan 4 was foreshadowed back in Saiyan saga-frieza saga("the super Saiyan of legend") the lore made way more sense
I just think they should embrace the form. The manga has been focusing on saiyan pride with Bardock a lot lately maybe have some conversation where Vegeta remembers Goku never learned to control his oozaru form so they go in the time chamber to do it safely and instead of going golden by turning ssj he turns into a more slender red oozaru using god ki and then basically has the same hair as ssj4 gogeta and the pupils are red.
Nah, red pupils would ruin the ssj4 look. It’s kinda like with super broly’s eyes in his wrath form, which I’m hoping they tie to ssj4 due to it also being ozaruu in base
Everybody: SSJ4’s concept goes back to the Saiyan roots of primal power, that’s why it’s better than the god forms
Me, an intellectual: UI and MUI uses martial arts concepts, it goes all the way back to OG DB, where _literally the entire franchise started from_
Yea but that doesn’t mean anything since martial arts is something not everyone but most ppl can master I mean master roshi did it in the manga where as ssj4 is exclusive to the saiyans and bringing out the savage nature of a saiyan
And you clearly being an “ intellectual “ would know that going to your roots means your going wayyyyy wayyyy back from the beginning of the person’s birth so In actuality ssj4 predates mui
@@outcast5546nope you lose
@@outcast5546 cap
If you actually were a intellectual you would have known goku already learn ui technique already by mr. Popo but your lazy ass writer forgot all about it in z. All he did was make it a special form.
I completely disagree with you realistically, Super Saiyan 4 is stronger than blue, and that's just your opinion. Thank goodness for that matter. And Super Saiyan 4 is not a 10 times multiplier and that is actually a headcanon multiplier made by fans and this is where it makes your entire Theory and review completely reliable because you just base it off of a random article that is not based on anything official or facts this should destroy any credibility of your review. it was even stated that Super Saiyan 4 multiplier is limit breaker rather a multiplier in the means of multiplication of a transformation, not one Warriors breaking their physical limits like suggesting in super. This is why you don't believe anything just on the internet especially articles that are meant to diminish Super Saiyan 4 power I seen their statistics I seen how they diminish his power basing it on the Kamehameha x 10 and not actually the power of a Super Saiyan 4 they make headcanon to try to prove Super Saiyan 4 is weaker but in reality they don't use anything actually truly official coming from the creators themselves dragon-ball-gt whether Super Saiyan 4 stronger or not.
Agreed, there’s a video on it that has another link on to how they got the numbers for it, it’s GT vs super by kazi
What about ss4 Gogeta?? He was able to toy with Omega shenron
Gogeta vs vegito blue
@@richardsmall8940like Gogeta base? Or also in blue? Because if you put him in base it’s not exactly fair. If anything they are equals because they are still from the same people unless you are using different time periods
@@brendanjohnson8979 vegito is supposed to have more potential as they are fused with the kai pterra earrings
@@richardsmall8940 that’s a fair point but I don’t exactly wanna get brought into the whole vegito vs gogeta tribe thing, I’ll ask questions but I ain’t gonna pick a side. However I do think they both look amazing
Can’t forget about the amount of training from gt goku he spent a lot of time training before gt saga began and he also took energy from all the z fighters twice during the gt saga once with baby and again with omega shenron
I would agree to disagree. Yes Dragonball Heroes is a game, but that doesn't mean it just breaks the entire storyboard. If they depict an SSJ4 rivalling an SSJB, it's because remember GT is an entirely different universe than Super. Not canon doesn't mean that power levels aren't valid in their respective universe. In Super, SSJ4 was never achieved, this doesn't exist. In GT, god ki was never developed, thus doesn't exist. Yes, if we saw a base GT Goku fight a base Super Goku, no fancy hair on either side, the GT Goku would likely win merely from the higher base power level, up until Super Goku pulls out UI.
i really dont get why some ppl actually believe that super saiyan 4 is stronger...
When you break it down I don't think you can believe it!
Because we are old school fans lol
@@markmagician2471 what does one thing has to do with the other?
Because it actually is stronger.
@@HistoryofDragonBall because kamahamaha 10x exist & s.s. blue doesn't have that.
I wish SSJ4 was canon. Maybe in the future when super ends and the whole GT sequence hopefully is remade since Super takes place right after Buu saga/Before End of Z+GT
So I like SSJ4 more because it looks cooler to me. However, it's feats compared to SSJ Blue's feats clearly make it weaker.
Yes I know Super Dragonball Heros is a thing but that show isn't Cannon and just meant to promote a game.
i mean...its like comparing a god to a monkey
Great video
Ss4 will always be og 💯
what do u mean by og
@@lastcorridorsans og
Original Gangsta 😎
Personally me I prefer the look of SSJ 4 it just looks way better but with that being said if SSj blue is stronger than SSG 4 then dragon ball gt is no longer canon because if they try to transition in to gt later on ssj4 would be a downgrade not an upgrade
I am beyond fed up with all these so-called "Goku fans" who can't seem to understand the true power of SSJ4 Goku from GT. This form of Goku is a god among men, a true warrior with power that is beyond comprehension. The Kamehameha x10 is not just a simple move, it's a weapon of mass destruction that can literally bend reality itself (base GT Goku destroyed a dimension with his Kamehameha). DBS Super can barely shoot a normal Kamehameha, let alone a Kamehameha x10. And don't even get me started on how he would destroy Beerus in a fight.
But yet, all these weak-minded fanboys continue to push their DBS Super and SSJ Blue nonsense, like they're somehow comparable to SSJ4 Goku. It's an insult to the true form of Goku, and it needs to stop.
If you truly want to see the true power of Goku, then look no further than SSJ4 Goku from GT. Anyone who says otherwise is just plain ignorant and doesn't deserve to call themselves a fan of Dragon Ball.
SSJ4 is by far the cooler transformation, but GT SSJ4 is no where near the power of SSJB especially now. However, if you did include Dragon Ball Hero's SSJ4 that is a different story entirely.
In my **opinion** Ssj4 is garbage
@@Spooder-Man_ You called someone drunk for calling ssj god and blue form “meh” you werent respecting their opinion.
@@Spooder-Man_ super sayian blue looks like regular super sayian but blue that’s it ssj4 actually changes the sayian whole body
@@Blueoney True but that's kind of the point of SSB. A Super Saiyan version of a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God is all SSB is. It's a recolor because it essentially is just Super Saiyan.
SSJ4 gives a bigger multiplier.
Yeah blue is so obviously orders of magnitude above 4 that I have not even bothered watching a vs before just now. Four looks pretty kewl though.
God and Blue, and Blue primarily, are just silly. Really hate the direction it went. But alas. SSJ3 and 4 will remain my favorites.
SSJ4 could've become almost a new base form with different powerup directions from there. Missed opportunity. And.. Toriyama designed it!! Should've never been abandoned.
I feel this argument is weakened by the fact that GT had an easily navigable scale here to maintain some heirarchy, but in the case of SSG Goku, there is no calibration. He goes from so hopelessly outclassed to standing his ground in an instant. There is no way to guage anything other than his offhand Potara comment, which is shaky at best.
It's frustrating to watch you break down SSJ4 by numbers, and then just sort of handwave the SSGB argument.
Ssj4 goku in shadow dragons arc was confirmed equal to buu saga vegito in super saiyan
where was that confirmed??? his base at the start of gt was stronger than ssj3 with Rildo being said to be stronger than "buu" (i assume kid buu but if its super buu thats so much). @@an-average-box
Ssj4 is stronger because it gains Golden Ape as it's place holder... thats amount of physical strength compact into a smaller form is insane and the ability to use moves like gogeta and resist elements really adds up ...not mentioning it goes up in power later like full power mode and possibly Red power mode as seen with ssj4 Gogeta...just having a tail increases ones power to top it
ok so. For your Super Saiyan God unless I missed something, you only said "Super Saiyan God was far more then what Goku could have expected." I dont think that much explains it. Though I could have just missed something while zoning out.
I feel like you really cant use that to definitely give god form a multiplyer. The only two ways I think you can scale are thorugh fusion and the universal feat. But both are invalid, since we don't know how big the Dragon Ball Universe is and Fusion is as strong as the plot demands it too be. Not to mention, Beerus was holding back supremely so we cant use him as a Power Scale.
For example, If you use "fusion" as an example i could immediately debunk it by mentioning that BASE GOGETA is on par if not stronger then SSBlue Goku and Vegeta. making it a higher multiplier then God Form. Too make things worse, GOD KI has not helped our heroes at all outside of UI. Because basically every villian they've fought doesn't have it outside of black and-oh wait he was also stronger..
what I'm saying is, I don't think you can definitely say which one of these forms are stronger because at the end of the day, their is no confirmed multiplier, and the Power Scaling in GT/Super is absolute garbage, so it's hard to even scale.
Now I do believe that SSBlue is no contest, I'm more so saying that you could make the argument that 4 is at least rivaling god due to the inconsistency's in Super. I would like too see your opinion on which form is better overall (my opinion is SS4 due to it's adaptabillity and seemingly increased Zenkai), and calcing SS4's higher form's to SSG/SSB. After all, LIMIT BREAKER is SS4 with God Ki.
However at the end of the day, I do belive as Dragon Ball fan's we should be happy to give our opinions on these forms and just have fun. Some people get so serious over power scaling and really it's just some fun to have. And at teh end of the day, it really comes down to that base form power. I mean who know's, maybe one day Akira Toriama will just randomly say "oh hey, SS4 is actually stronger then SSBlue Evolution". We never really know.
Toriama forgot Saiyan's have tails and hated gt so it's not likely he's going to come out and say a form he never wanted to create is stronger than one he did want to create
@@chriswilder9719 Their is litterally nothing to suggest he hated GT. The only thing that has ever been stated by Toriama and GT officially is in the kanzenshuu. where the only thing he commented on that wasn't factual is:
"In particular, the animator Nakatsuru-kun is so skilled, and has such understanding of the peculiarities of my drawings, that there have been times that even I have been like, "Did I draw this character design, or did Nakatsuru-kun?," not being able to tell the difference. For example, "Super Saiyan 4," which appears in GT, was Nakatsuru-kun's design. The image I drew above is the likeness I made after looking at it. Did I do a good job? If you are able, along with me, to enjoy watching the original Dragon Ball's grand side-story Dragon Ball GT, you will be pleased." so stop trying to spread misinformation, and do your research.
Besides that it's as I said, we shouldn't worry about power scaling too seriously, and just enjoy the show. Toriama made Base Form Broly go from getting bodied by Vegeta, to being on par with God Goku, to being on Par with base Goku, and then being onpar with Blue Goku and Vegeta. Power scaling is literally impossible to do seriously.
Him not hating gt is news to me as I have only ever heard he hated it and that he wanted dragon ball to end after the Frieza saga. I have no issue enjoying them. I love all of the series and while I do think gt is the weakest I still enjoy it immensely. I was only trying to state that someone is going to be more partial to something they created and wanted to create compared to something they created due to contractual obligations. If he was as in love with ss4 as he is with blue than yes he will never say what one is stronger
Ssjb was actually my favorite and I thought it has to be stronger but if you look at the newest broly movie you can clearly see that ssj4 is by far greater than ssjb. Broly is said to use his oozarus powers while still maintaining the human form. That means ssj broly is actually a ssj oozaru or better golden oozaru and ssjb both Goku and vegeta stood no chance at all. Broly easily tanked a combined attack from them both. I assume the lssj isn’t all too special either perhaps it’s just a more evolved form of the normal ssj or just a different path since we saw vegetas hair turning green for a second so perhaps the lssj isn’t that much of a power up against the normal ssj. Maybe it’s a more mastered version of the normal ssj but I don’t think it’s as of a multipler as ssj2 would be against ssj. After all ssj2 it 2x as strong as The normal ssj. Always thought broly was this special warrior that existed only once every 1000 years for a reason but taking all the information together he probably isn’t. Yes maybe his green oozaru (lssj) is more evolved than the normal ssj and maybe no other sayjan can become a green oozaru but ssj4 is still a thing at least in gt and going by that logic ssj4 should be stronger than lssj or maybe the same
you got me pissed reading this comment, First broly didnt use ssj4 also clearly hes strong because hes the legendary super saiyan, Second how in the living world would that be a more mastered form of ssj if he just got it? Whatever logic your using stop it my brain hurts from trying to see your pov its a non cannon form yea it was pretty cool but the reason broly eyes be full white is he not in control of his power and he does have his tail so think about the future db movies broly gonna be in it. i dont wanna spoil ya or anyone else who reads this but stay tuned.
all other broly movies is non cannon btw but this one shows that thats his first real kinda fight because his dad training is trash and non that good.
Isn't goku in the Manga being told to focus more on his sayajin routes? Is it possible he will learn that he can go further using regular ki than he can using god ki? Like what if God ki in a mortal has its limits so Goku later abandons the God ki and focuses on regular ki and then unlocks the SSJ4 in GT?
Why would God ki have limits even tho its superior to regular ki users.
Whis taught Goku to stop copying and to find his own advantage for ultra instinct.
@@godspeedforce9371 because he would so powerful from that he "must become a god" himself which would mean goku would not get to fight anyone he wants to, which he would hate.
@@godspeedforce9371 he could do that though without a dobt. Super takes place between end of buu saga and the uub tournament in the end of Z. So the Power scaling of ssj4 would probably be buffed
If it was made canon 😭
I saw a post about this debate, and while everyone was trying to prove their point about what forms stonger, i just put it down to whats stronger? An apprentice saiyan god? or a Saiyan's true potential? (Or something like that)
I’m pretty sure base Goku (GT) is stronger Goku in base in super.
base gt goku is ridiculously strong, thats why he was having fun with his enemies pre baby vegeta, like rildo who was stronger than buu
Goku after absorbing the God Ki clears Base GT Goku
By the end of dbs base goku completely clears DBGT
Good video. But maybe you did not take into fact that the Base Form Goku is stronger than DBZ or DBS Base Form Goku. Events of DBGT occur after DBZ and DBS occur right before Uub Saga/ending of DBZ, which means that the Base Form Goku in DBGT is far superior to the Base Form Goku in DBS/DBZ.
I think from that POV, the multipliers would vary and we might get different results.
I understand the video is 2 years old and some of the DBS revelations of Uub are just recent developments, but I'd love to see a remake of this video!
I mean, he spent 5 to 10 years fighting the equivalent of Kid Buu, then fighting a ton of strong opponents as a kid…
I've always placed ssj4 in regards of power as significantly less than ssj god let alone ssj blue ( I disagree slightly with your ssj4 calculations but otherwise this was excellently well done)
SS4/GT isn't canon so this entire argument is completely stupid.
Why does that matter 🗿
Super Saiyan Blue being more powerful than SSJ4 is fine, but SSJ4 is way stronger than Buu saga bro. What?
4 fully acknowledges what Saiyans are. It's the perfect end for a Saiyan's journey of power. One has to completely master the power of the Oozaru within to achieve it. The "God Forms" and UI are cheesy by comparison. Lest we forget SSJ4 Gogeta. An immensely powerful version.
Yeah, I’d say ssj4 is the pinnacle of sayians, while super sayian god and blue are them them trespassing into the realm of gods
lets not forget that its not cannon ;c
Hey guys and History of DB!!!!! See these two transformations compared here too! As fans, I'm sure you will appreciate!!!! Type in youtube: ALL 7TH ANNIVERSARY SA ANIMATIONS. You will enjoy both Gogetas :3
I CALLED IT! I ####ING CALLED IT! MY FRIENDS CAN NO LONGER SAY SSJ4 IS BETTER!
I disagree for 1 main reason, dbs Broly's power comes from Oozaru and he was able to keep up with ssb no problem. Whether that highlights the absurdity of power scaling in super or not, since ssj4's power is from controlling the power of Oozaru as well then I think it's stronger than blue.
I like ssj4, but honestly it just doesn't make sense that it pans out this way. As much as I liked the Broly movie I thought it was kinda nonsensical that monkey power meant he could keep up with pseudo-gods. Maybe they'll build on that and explain exactly why Oozaru grants sooooo much potential, power from a true God and the potential of raw Saiyan power or something idk. But by the logic that dbs Broly setup I gotta say ssj4 is stronger or at least matches the base power of ssb.
No just stop 🛑
@@supesisfodder7427 why? The broly movie set the narrative lol
No
@@ontoshere blue still can't do a kamahamaha 10x so s.s. blue is weak to me.
@@kevinerbs2778Goku literally did a SSB Kaioken x20 Kamehameha in the show and before you say it didn't amplify his Kamehameha when the first time Goku and Vegeta clashed their Kamehameha and Galick Gun Goku had to to x4 to make his blast stronger proving that Kaioken effects strength
Blue, obviously. Why do you need a 10 minutes video to explain the obvious?
Depends on the user
Now I get it why Broly is so powerful considering its base form even he is a baby is too high. Transforming means he will have a exponential increase of power.
I mean, it's really easy lmao
Talking about the transformation itself:
-> Ssj4 = Ozaru in Ssj
Since Ozaru is a x10 and ssj is a x50, ssj is mathematically a x500. This is consistent with the other ssj (Ssj1 x50, Ssj2 x50x2, Ssj3 x50x2x3)
-> Ssj Blue = Ssj God in ssj
Since both 4 and Blue are the ssj form of another transformation, we only need to know if ssj god is stronger or not than an ozaru...we know by a fact god is stronger than (which is a x300)
In other hands, ssj blue is AT LEAST a x300x50, that means a x1500 (this is assuming ssj3 and ssj god are equals, and we know god is stronger than a lot)
In conclusion, ssj4 is a x500 and blue is more than a x1500
Way off
Why did you start at a power level of 1 tho??
Actually super Saiyan 4 arguably has the same multiplier as fusion according to a guide
I ultimately prefer Super Saiyan 4. It's my favorite transformation in all of Dragon Ball. The transformations in Super just haven't really impressed me all that much. They are cool and whatnot, but they haven't really blown my mind. Vegeta's Ultra Ego form is the first to kinda really get me interested, honestly. But yeah, they need to make Super Saiyan 4 canon again. Maybe give it to Broly first and then have Goku, Vegeta and the others achieve the transformation.
it was never cannon
Give it to broly only coz we don't want copy and paste forms
Let’s also add that ssjg was making universe ending shockwaves just from a simple clash
Buuhan was already threatening the universe and before him
Even second form Frieza was stated that he would destroy the universe
And in gt
There are many feats that can be scaled to universal
Ontop of all that
That does not make super sayain god universal
It makes Goku universal
We don't know how close Goku was to destroying the universe in base alone or how close he was in ssj3
The super sayain god does not have an official multiplier so all we can guess is it boosted him high enough
Goku was accidentally destroying it ontop of that because he couldn't get ahold of that power which could imply they were already at that level
Especially if you wanna really push it and mention Buuhans feat and use the argument that kid Buu is stronger which some people do
And has many statements in show about it
Basically just because ssg can make Goku do it dosent make the multipler "Universal" he just got enough strength ontop of his base to do it
So someone with a power level of 1 going god would probably not be blowing up the universe
one thing
big bang kame hame ha
I think super saiyan 4 is weaker in terms of raw power output but super saiyan 4 will win in a drawn out battle if the ssj4 user plays their cards right and conserves stamina against a ssb user
Ss4 looks cooler but ssb is stronger.
dam that ss4 just look kooler to me
Thought ss4 was 10x ssj3 and ssg was 7.5x ss3
No that's so far off 😂
@@sellout-scott could have swarn one of the dbs guides said that
@@sithmaster6435 you must have read a false guide and here's my logic behind that: Considering SSG Goku pushed Beerus to 70% and SSJ2 Enraged Vegeta pushed Beerus to 10% you're better off multiplying Vegeta's entire power level with that enraged SSJ2 times 7 which is probably a lot closer to the SSG Multiplier funny enough. Before you are that his power level shouldn't be multiplied and only the form should be multiplied if Vegeta's power level was 1 enraged SSJ2 would've done nothing and Beerus could breathe on him and he'd die so for it to logically make sense you'd have to multiply Vegeta's max power times 7
And who's knows what Vegeta power level could be as they started to touch billions in the Buu Saga so you can only imagine the SSG Multiplier
SSJ Blue = Hypothetical SSJ5
No.
Naw, the power level difference is not that far, but I still agree that SSJB is stronger than SSJ4
Super saiyan blue is not a true super saiyan form. Tired of people calling it super saiyan form. Super saiyan blue is just a Super saiyan warrior who tapped into a GOD power Ki and is borrowing God powers as a boost. Super saiyan 4 is a true super saiyan. Super saiyan 4 is technically saiyan ape powers with full control and speed. Because saiyan ape is a form that is not controlled but just huge power being throw around. And there is another form that is a true saiyan and thats Broly who is a true legendary super saiyan. Technically legendary super saiyan is the opposite of a saiyan ape. Legendary super saiyan is the power of the saiyan ape and still remain human form, but has no control of their powers like Broly who goes rampage.
I don't buy it, SSJ4 Goku is stronger.
I like ss4 dragon ball gt and dragon ball z was the dragon balls I watched and I watched gt more when I was a kid even had dvd of them
I still say SSJ4 is more powerful. SSJ blue and red are just ALWAYS being overpowered soo easily. Goku (in ssj blue) was man handled by Kale in SSJ 1!!! Goku needed Ultra Instincts to defeat Kefla (which was a fusion of 2 ssj 2 rookies).
People literally never say SSJ4 is stronger because of how it looks.
You’d be surprised
And you only wished that SSJ4 was stronger because of how cool you think it looks 💀This video is here for a reason, and there is evidence to prove the conclusion. I even have my own to back up why SSJB is stronger, if only by a little.
@@RoxxiesGenesis luckily they are the minority where I haven't seen them.
@@lastcorridorsans well actually you could argue it based on how complete the design is where it is meant to be the ultimate design vs. Everything else such as 💙 is still just a Super Saiyan for a soldier is logic and reason they are but of course that's still not entirely to valid. But of course based on statements from guides and scaling from the show, it definitely is so much stronger than Super Saiyan 💙 where it is even stronger than Master Ultra Instinct.
Dragon ball heroes basically answered this question. Gt goku/ xeno goku are from different timelines than the super version of goku. Ssj4 vegito was stronger than ssb kaioken vegito on prison planet. And limit breaker ssj4 is close to ultra instinct level but loses
Ssj4 looks better but ssg smokes
Cap
*FALSE*
Super Saiyan God is never stated to be stronger than vegito. He just so happened to realize that he needed more power than Super Saiyan 3 Vegito and wanted to bring the Super Saiyan God to earth. However none of that means that Super Saiyan God was stronger than Super Saiyan 3 fusion. When Goku went back to Earth to do the super saiyan God ritual, he was getting an energy boost as stated by Shenron. As a fire he would know he would become very much stronger than ever before thanks to that alone. He even did it again after failing to become a Super Saiyan God the first time which means he had two very large boost of energy stacked on top of each other and Super Saiyan God which surpasses Super Saiyan 3 Vegito collectively.
Even after the field ritual he stated that he still doesn't feel like a god after agreeing his energy has been the highest it has ever been. Goku never stated he had not surpassed his goal of surpassing Super Saiyan 3 fusion. He was only concerned about being a god. Knowing how old is fights turn out, he would know that he would just break his limits during the fight anyways and try to use the depth of his Newfound God powers.
There is no evidence that Super Saiyan God is stronger than Super Saiyan 3 fusion. Let alone metamoran Fusion where we see Gogeta stronger than Super Saiyan Wrath Broly who is stronger than Super Saiyan Blue Goku and Vegeta together with their signature moves.
Bro listen
Ssj=50x base
Ssj2=100x base
Ssj3=400x base
Ssj4= 204,800
I think ssj4 is stronger because in battle of the gods, vegeta was putting hands on beerus while in ssj2 after beerus hurt bulma but when goku fought beerus he was in ssj3 and stood no chance. since ssj3 is supposed to be stronger than ssj2, and ssj4>both ssj2 and 3 i think ssj4 goku could probably box with beerus. also gt takes place 10 years after the original series whereas super takes place 4 years after. I say this to say that base gt goku is probably stronger than base super goku because gt goku has had more time to train so theoretically ssj4 should be stronger because it multiplies gt gokus power who should already stronger than super goku.
Ss2 enraged is a bigger multiplier than Ssj3
Bro ssj4 isn’t even a bigger multiplier than ssjgod😂
@@Kingoio222 ssj4 and god don’t have any official multipliers and ssj rage hasn’t appeared in any other media and isn’t even in the manga so we don’t know shit about it
Considering SSG Goku pushed Beerus to 70% and SSJ2 Enraged Vegeta pushed Beerus to 10% you're better off multiplying Vegeta's entire power level with that enraged SSJ2 times 7 which is probably a lot closer to the SSG Multiplier funny enough. Before you are that his power level shouldn't be multiplied and only the form should be multiplied if Vegeta's power level was 1 enraged SSJ2 would've done nothing and Beerus could breathe on him and he'd die so for it to logically make sense you'd have to multiply Vegeta's max power times 7
And with Vegetas base power level already being higher than the billions you can only hope to imagine the actual SSG Multiplier
Truth is that Goku Super Saiyan blue was given a run for his money by Broly who was actually told to have the same strengths as a power up great ape just one which means that Goku Super 4 who is 10 times stronger than a single grade ape would be stronger than Super Saiyan blue but this cannot be determined due to the fact that we're not giving exact power level difference
I can see ss4 being physically superior...blue is better at speed, ki and slightly better with super moves.....
Morons ssj 4 is a fodder multiplier to ssj god just stop 🛑
Actually Broly does have the same strength as a Great Ape. In the movie when he fought against Vegeta, Vegeta transformed into a Super Saiyan which gave him a little edge against Broly. Then he transformed into Super Saiyan God which he easily dominate Broly in power. But when Broly transformed into his Wrathful form, that’s where his strength of the great ape comes from. Another people shouldn’t forget is that Broly has a higher base power level than Goku and Vegeta. So that doesn’t mean that Super Saiyan 4 is stronger than Blue. The only way it would be stronger if the user have a higher base power level than the user with the super Saiyan Blue
This was super saiyan broly who is leagues stronger than blue and ssj4 is vastly inferior to blue in power
I kinda feel like ur multipliers r a lil off but not sure
I think super saiyan 4 should’ve been ssg tho that design is fire
SS4 should be stronger than everything in super and dragon ball Z because it comes afterwards in the timeline….. Hypothetically speaking that is
That's what I thought
GT ain’t even in the same timeline how can it be stronger than anything in super
because of base gt goku@@Kingoio222
Goku, even without fusion, is stronger than SSJ4 Goku from GT. Some people may not agree with that, but they also can't fathom how much stronger Goku got at the very beginning of Super versus how strong Goku was at the beginning of GT. How strong Goku was off rip is completely unquantifiable. It was some time since the battle with Kid Buu, but there is no way of measuring how strong Goku got. It's possible he was as strong as GT Goku. Who knows? But to low ball it or make it easier, let's say he was marginally stronger. Not by much. He went from being low multi-galaxy at best to nigh Universal, if not just simply Universal. Even if you wanted to jerk SSJ3 Goku to Mid Multigalaxy, the difference between that and Universal is hard to fathom. GT Goku off rip was about as strong as SSJ3 was against Kid Buu, or at least, that is what is believed, generally. Let's say he was 400x stronger. That would still make him low Multi Galaxy, even as SSJ3. There is no multiplier for SSJ4, so all you can really go with are context clues, but considering there are roughly two trillion galaxies in the observable Universe alone, even if you make SSJ4 Goku a 500,000x multiplier from SSJ3, he would still be weaker. Maybe as fusion? because it's basically a plot based multiplier. But the scaling in Super just took everything to a much higher level. I don't like it, but it is what it is.
I absolutely love the Super Saiyan 4 design, I think it's one of the only good things from GT. But no unfortunately Super Saiyan Blue is far superior to Super Saiyan 4. For the love of Red... I mean God, it's the Super Saiyan form of a Super Saiyan God.
SS Blue’s aura does look better than SS4’s.
What if fully grown goku turns into super saiyan 4?
I was just wondering, why not use a standard base from for goku for each? Using kid gt goku vs. super goku will all ways make super goku stronger. As kid, goku was so much weaker in that form.
gogeta ssj4 whooped shenron without breaking a sweat in super lighntning speed and i never forget THE BING BANG KAMEHAMEHA x100!!!!!!
This dude is wrong SS4 is more powerful than ultra instinct even
That's where you're wrong
Lmal this guy covered what i was gonna say but in gt this is the true form of the sayain
i thought super sayin is only 50 times base not 500
think of it as ssj4 vs ssjg
yeah didnt think so
🔥🔥
They used a satellite machine bulma built in GT for legendary Ozaru ssj4 smh … while dbs (cannon) trained 24/7 and just got colored hair…they honestly should give dbs ssj4 with ssj rage , limit breaker, ultra instinct, PUI/MUI, and ultra ego etc…
Super Saiyan Blue for me.
What I,ve learnt about DB transformationes is that the more they transform, the weaker they are. C,mon, in prior DBZ episodes, some characters (i.e Vegeta and Nappa) were capable of obliterating a planet. Now ssj god and beyond are barely able to shoot beams that wipe only a mountain. It,s nonsense
I don't think that's part of the plot, it's just how they made it, and I'm not sure if you even watched DBZ or knew it from watching shorts and all, but that first sentence in your comment is not true at all. Goku and Gohan in Cell Saga stay in SSJ form to get used to it in their everyday life in order to ascend to a SSJ2. By the time he fought Cell, he fully mastered the SSJ transformation.
Imagine super saiyan god super saiyan 4
Super saiyan 4 is basically a controlled icari (probably spelled wrong) or humanoid ape form . Which could be stronger because broly Super icari form is overwhelmingly powerful
Agree 100%