Quick Guide to Zagreus: Big Finish's Hot Mess of a Masterpiece
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 17 ก.พ. 2023
- Zagreus is glorious and if you havent listened to it I recommend it.
Zagreus sits inside your head.
Zagreus lives among the dead…
Zagreus sees you in your bed
And eats you when you're sleeping.
Fan art used in this is by the amazing JohannesVIII Art. Check out their TH-cam channel
youtube.com/@johannesviiiart6...
Music:
Fig Leaf Rag, Scheming Weasel, break time, divertisseme, by Kevin MacLeod are licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 license. creativecommons.org/licenses/... - บันเทิง
I used fan art in this vodeo. Check out their TH-cam
youtube.com/@johannesviiiart6574?si=_5alWIo69EZB4ROj
It never occurred to me to view that part of Flux as a Zagreus homage, but now it makes sense.
“Yeah vampires exist in doctor who”
Me: hell yeah they do [pulls out my copy of Vampire Science]
The first time I listened to Zagreus it was at 2am with a massive electrical storm outside. It was one of the most uncanny, weird experiences of my *life*, and I loved every minute.
That is such a great way to listen to it for the first time
Zagreus was crazy and I enjoyed it. It does put a bit of a damper on the line from "The Doctor's Wife", where the TARDIS says, "This is when we talked." Apparently it forgot being the Briga-TARDIS and bickering with Eight.
I put it down to 8's uncanny ability to forget stuff. The tardis being linked to him she forgot too
The talked in another Eighth Doctor story too, “The Ancestor Cell” both better than The Doctor’s Wife
@@BattlestarZenobia I respectfully disagree. The doctors wife was brilliant. The show needs more Neil Gaiman stories
@@thatDamnAusWhoFan Nightmare in Silver 2 Lets goooooo
@@brandonbaka1375 late reply but I’d unironically read a novel or listen to an audio based off the original pitch for this episode
Zagreus is not that confusing, you just have to pay close attention to it.
I've listened to Zagreus about 2 1/2 times, and I'm only just now starting to follow it.
Which is to say, it's mental and awesome.
It is pretty good isn't it. I hope I can re evaluate the divergent arc in the same way. I remember it being a bit of a waste in potential. Also the core concept of a universe without time made no sense. People in that universe experience time the same as we do. They keep appointments, they measure it, they talk about the past, speculate on the future. They have no concept of time but they also do because we constantly see them applying it.
@@thatDamnAusWhoFan Haven't yet gotten to the Divergent Arc, so I have no opinion. Sorry.
At the end of the story, the Eighth Doctor talks to his previous self in his mind, which fittingly connects it to Power of the Doctor where the same things happens and the same Doctors show up, alongside the First Doctor. A neat connection, imo.
I love how crazy Zagreus is.
I just finished Zagreus yesterday for the first time and I still have a headache
And I loved every second of it
Yeah it's all over the place, some of it is terrible but it's hard not to have fun with it.
Yeah it's all over the place, some of it is terrible but it's hard not to have fun with it.
It’s been several years since I had listened to Zagreus, and even though it’s very confusing and very “bouncing off the wall” crazy in many ways, I remember really liking it!
I LOVED the Divergent Universe arc so with Zagreus being it’s setup, I appreciate a lot if only for getting us to that arc
I love it, but after re listening for these videos I hate how charley is treated. She learns she's a threat to the universe so she begs to be put back at the moment t of her death. He ignores her she's strapped to a machine and has to deal with all this nonsense, then he decides to save her by ruining his life and ceiling himself from the universe and that's not to mention bashing her in the start of zagreus. He did all that to himself. He didn't have to, none of it would have happened if he respected her wishes and then she's kind ebough to join him in his exile after he ruined his life via martyr complex and he continues treating her like shit. 8 in this arc deserves a good smack
@@thatDamnAusWhoFan It kinda of reminds me of the Toxic Attachment 12 and Clara have; but more One-Sided. I also find it interesting that 8 seems willing to go further for Charley despite his inability/unwillingness to express his feelings towards her.
@@kanashimi4356 moffat seems to have been influenced a lot by charley.
I think the reason 8 and his era (particularly the Charley Era) seems to Resonate more with people like myself who came from the New Series is because so much more of the New Series' DNA comes from the Late Wilderness Years than is ever given credit for (Beyond 2 Adapted Stories).
I still can’t get over how Rassilon looked in the classic series. Like the spokesmen for a canned bean brand.
I need to hear this. I NEED to hear this. It's only £3, what a bargain for a wild audio adventure!
Update: I just listened to 4 hours of what I can only describe as a LSD trip of amazement and weird.
Finished listening to Zagreus a few hours ago and honestly, I love it. I can't say I found it easy to follow, but damn, if I didn't get excited every time I recognised a classic series actor's voice 😅
At the time I’m posting this, I’ve only listened to Zagreus once. It is a trip, for sure. I think The Brigadier’s line of “welcome to your insanity” sums this one up quite well.
Boy where was this in December when I bought Zagreus? So bizarre.
I might actually finish Zagreus now. All about that Who Lore Baby!
Man, I love Neverland. Bonus points for it spinning off the Gallifrey series.
I just finished this and Neverland in one go and my attention span sucks so I zoned out a missed a few bits which were cleared up with this video haha (its very confusing when you space out and suddenly you hear romana talking about eating rassilons brain) but overall i love it so much omg
I agree with your take on this madcap, gloriously convoluted, and multi-mood story that is great, big, and prolonged. I guess what I love about it is that the story's weaknesses: they don't explain everything and leave stories frayed (not plot holes, just deliberate mysteries). Thank you for all of your work on this and talking about this strange, distant corner of the Whoniverse.
Hey thanks. I wouldn't say its a distant corner though, simply by how much big finish influences the show. Moffat especially is guilty of this. He has a companion who is saved from the brink of death, which breaks the web of time threatening the continued existence of the universe and in their final episode the doctor has to try and erase her memory, which doesn't work and she goes off and has more space adventures after
Just finished listening to it. Loved it! Absolutely batshit insane. I took my time listening and relistening to parts from time to time to make sure I didn’t get lost
Zagreus seems like a completely normal doctor who story after listening to Scherzo
Zagreus may be a fucking wild ride but at least the continuity to reach it is linear. Now Death in the family & afterlife that's a fucking tangle of continuity considering how it pertains to not just seventh doctor but six doctor stories as well.
I am Zagrrrrrrrrrreus
I listened to Zagreus recently and I enjoyed it; but also had a lot of trouble tracking what was happening! This video actually helped me understand most of it 😂 I got the main plot but this just made it all… make sense I guess?
Really really loved this video. I shall be subscribing
Great stuff as always x
Thanks. This one was fun to make
Insane story and it is unconventional as a Multi Doctor Story if you can call it such.
Paul McGann’s performance is top notch.
Now that is impressive. Audio book manages show don't tell, better than TV.
Also, slight correction: The Pertwee audio is not from his episodes, but from the recording- and behind the scenes of the fan-film 'Devious' from 1995 in which Pertwee cameod as the Third Doctor. This is confirmed on the fan-film's website.
Excellent review. I love Zagreus. It is so weird and experimental and just fun to listen to. The only real issue I had with it was the overreliance on Lewis Carroll- I can't stand Carroll, I lived through the early 2000s hot topic era when his work became shorthand for edgy teenagers and I was seriously over exposed.
I love that you brought up the correct interpretation of the schroedingers Cat thought experiment. It is so overused and it never is explained the way Schroedinger intended. Also, 'just ask a scientist don't blow holes in the universe cracked me up. Darwin had that crap figured out way before the 1950s.
To be fair this was 2003 before lewis carol was ruined forever by pop culture. Thanks a lot. I'm glad someone likes me geeking out over every reference they make.
I have listened to audiobook twice now, and i still learned new stuff from your summery about why certain things where happening that had me scratching my head. It is an absolute mess but now I feel like listening to it again, cause its the type of story that just comes from so much love for all the weirdness and deep lore of Dr Who. It has its flaws as a story, but I could never fault anyone that love.
I didn't realize the parallels between Zagreus and the Flux before, but now I won't be able to unsee it.
While the confrontation between the TARDIS and the Doctor was interesting, I personally always believe that she was just as corrupted by the the Anti-Time as Eight was. Cause in most instances where we have seen the TARDIS express herself directly (Taking of Planet Five, the Doctors Wife, Toy Story) she has been consistently portrailed to be equally, if not even more, adventureous than the Doctor. Heck, she has proven herself to be very capable to refuse to go somewhere or do something because she "is a fraid of ghosts". That said, I still think its an interesting angle and I'm glad its there.
I love that Nicola Bryant and Colin Baker are still paired up.
SHIPPP!!
Love the thumbnail
ypu know I just listened to it and still it sounds so ridiculous xD
I rather loved that weird quality!
I love Zagreus
The audio clips of the third Doctor are actually from the fan film Devious, not from archive episodes.
I think Jack wasn't abandoned for the reasons you state. The Doctor literally had to fly out of there, and even if she showed him what her powers did to Jack, it would be buried under all the other amounts of energy. She did to Jack what The Doctor did to Susan years ago. Also, the face of boe theory.
That was in reference to the episode eutopia, in season 3 when Jack finally catches up with the doctor and the doctor tells him the reason he never came back for him is because him and the tardis are so repulsed by him the tardis ran to the end of everything just to try and shake him off. Hes a living breathing fixed point. A complex space time event that should not exist, which makes sense.
The doctor totally could have gone back for him. This isn't adric we're talking about. But he didnt for some reason
@@thatDamnAusWhoFan That same Doctor let Mickey take the controls over, and didn't notify him when to let go in a sick type of "joke" that literally costed everything to fall apart.
After the master violated her internal hardware in the movie, I highly doubt she takes things like that lightly. The Face of Boe is her Voice of Woe. She knew what could happen. When the Bad Wolf appeared, was it truly Rose only speaking?
@7:48 Reductio ad absurium.
Reduction to absurdity.
Could you please credit in the description comment my fanarts used at 2:41 , 4:10 and 5:09 ? thank you in advance!
Sorry I really need to be more careful about this stiff. At work at the moment but I'll do it as soon as I get home. Want me to link to anything? Devianart, insta, etc..?
Actually now I think of it I may have used another one of yours in my video in the divergent arc too. I'm really sorry. I'll credit where appropriate and I'll try not to let this happen again.
Your fan art is fantastic by the way
Don't be sorry, it's okay. Thank you for the kind words too @@thatDamnAusWhoFan
@johannesviiiart6574 should I link to anything or is just your youtube OK?
Unrelated to the video but I must know: is Australia a country or a continent?
Its a country
Both, as well as being a series of islands; not all on the continental shelf. Hello, Norfolk Island.
Its both. Also a bunch of islands. We have literal concentration camps on a couple of them for asylum seekers which is against UN law and completely ficked up.
@@thatDamnAusWhoFan That's awful - is there anything I can do?
yes
13:56 Captain Jack Harkness, The Brigadier, K-9, Sarah Jane Smith, The Master back when he was Missy, oh and in case I forget, River Bloody Song, CHECK YOUR RECORDS AGAIN.
Yeah I probably should have said "one of the only ones with a body count", although our definitions of what constitutes a companion may differ a bit. I consider anyone who travelled with the doctor and was part of the tardis crew for multiple episodes as a companion. A travelling companion you might say. It has to be multiple episodes otherwise you'd have to call every random who got a lift in the tardis a companion.
Captain Jack deffinitely counts but he did most of his killing before and after he came aboard. The brig doesn't count, he was mostly earth bound and functioned more as the doctors idiot boss. The master doesn't count either, not even as Missy. That was a test run, a flirtation that went tits up. I wouldnt consider River a companion either. She's his wife. She pops in occasionally but she makes a point not to travel with him for any amount of time because time lines.
This is a fun topic. Thanks for the video idea.
@@thatDamnAusWhoFan What about K-9 and Sara Jane?
K9 isn't a person he's a computer with a gun. He was a way to.give the doctor a lazer gun without giving him a gun. As for Sarah Jane I can't remember her killing anyone although it's been a while since I've sat down and watched her episodes
@@thatDamnAusWhoFan Plenty of villains in The Sara Jane Adventures died because of her.
@@jeromelancashire3278 oh ok. I've never seen it. I'm not sure if it even aired in australia
thank you for this I just listened and I had no idea what happened
10:53 Really? Out of all the showrunners, Chibnall strikes me as the one least familiar with the expanded universe in general, let alone Big Finish.
Most writers for doctor who are. Thats what the show is now, fans of who writing who. Influence from big finish amd the new adventure novels can be seen all over his era, he recreated a scene from the audio blood of the daleks for one of his new years specials, and he's on record saying he's a fan of their work
@@thatDamnAusWhoFan
I bring that up, because I read an article about Chibnall and Kate Stewart. He claimed that when he wrote her into Power of Three, he wasn't aware about the Kate Stewart from Downtime or even the film itself. He only found out because Ben Cook from DW Magazine told him about it.
Yeah sorry but Zagreus is terrible 😂 you’re right it clearly seeds ideas for New-Who but yes, its a narrative mess, tries WAY too hard to be cleverer than it really is, breaks canon and lore in small ways (yes, it did diminish them and plays into the whole Cartmel Master Plan nonsense that was never real) that The Timeless Children would do x100 while character assassinating the TARDIS, The Doctor, Charley and also promised a multi-Doctor story only to do a bait and switch and then do a few more throughout the story. It’s an entertaining mess but a mess all the same like most of the worst of the show. It’s awful😂 it’s everything Doctor Who shouldn’t be while giving a bad ending to a relatively good series of 8th Doctor stories. I’m of the opinion that the only truly canon stories of Big Finish are the 8th Doctor’s because he never got a tv series, with the rest of the adventures being like Elseworlds stories that are fine or even great in isolation. But, Zagreus was the story that made me blink on that stance for all the above reasons. It would’ve been so much better to leave the ending open to whether it was just a lie made up by Rassilon to exact his plan on the Divergent Universe and needing The Doctor to complete it but even that would’ve been a disservice. When your story has no good ways out, it means you have done something unsalvageable and that’s what this story is.
I agree that it's terrible. That's the point. It's concentrated wilderness years insanity and it is glorious. It's mostly bad but theres lots of really good bits and some great additions to the lore, but its also terrible.
I agree that 8's stories have the best case for canonisation, but the 6th doctor should be considered as well. His nest stories are on audio. Its the first and only time collin got to play the character as he saw him, rather than the violent space bastard he had to play in the show, so I like to consider his stories canon as well, but as I said in another video doctor who doesn't have a clearly defined consistent canon. Even the show is full of contradictions and theres a reason for that. It started in a period wjne junking was common place, home media was a glint in the milk man's eye, and nobody expected anyone would ever want or need to see the episodes again after they already aired. Cultural vandalism was the order of the day for the bbc, and it's only later on in the 70s and 80s when they really started to make an effort to keep things consistent but even in the new show theres plenty of inconsistencies.
Doctor who has no true canon but if you must apply one heres my approach. The show is the arbiter of what is real and everything else is in a state of flux. It's all canon until the show says it can't be, and even then it's up to personal choice. The bbc makes no ruling on it so it's a pick and mix. Have fun with it.
@@thatDamnAusWhoFan 100% agree on 6’s Audios too. 5 has some decent cases too (Spare Parts is a Top 5 story for despite it being very loose with Cybermen lore). Also “Violent Space Bastard” is the most Aussie description of a Doctor I’ve ever read so fair dinkum to you on that 😂
However, Doctor Who has more than enough of an established consistent canon and rules for the contradictions to be both few and far between while also ranging from harmless and ignorable to show destroying, like Zagreus is in some areas and The Timeless Children is in buckets. It’s all about respect for me. Respect for the talent gone into the show. Stories like Zagreus and TTC are disrespectful to the history of the show and the core ideas of it. For instance, the whole Cartmel Masterplan, while a fun fan fiction, was EXTREMELY disrespectful to the show and the franchise is lucky that it never became truly canon despite having a couple of interesting ideas for Timelord history in there. I do agree though that the canon is almost cherry picking the best and ignoring the worst even within the show itself (half-human Doctor anyone 😂) but the cherry picking has almost always been completely dead on the money by the best people running the show. Long may it continue. I also think the contradictions are somewhat part of the rules in a way that keeps the WHO in Doctor Who but it’s too big now not to have an almost universally recognised rule book and lore that stories like the aforementioned have no real part in and are better off left behind. The show is full of small examples of this though you’re absolutely right (Theta Sigma being the biggie)