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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 18 ก.ย. 2024
- Clip taken from SBC 188 - Mod Arcane: • Mod Arcane - Raids 4, ...
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Oh I'm glad you made this into it's own video, it was a really good segment from his cast
He's reading a script
he was prepared with a structured response to a hot topic and this is somehow a bad thing according to @@user-od9mj3cx2e
@@user-od9mj3cx2e I know, I watched the podcast. He has this written up ahead of time to not get off course
@@user-od9mj3cx2eHe said “I’ve prepared something for this,” it wasn’t a secret
A script ... which is an organised list of his thoughts .... which he literally said he prepared ahead of time because of the amount of BS he gets on it.
After watching this, I still think he shouldn't be allowed to make drop rates and all his drop rates should be addressed.
Regardless if a drop table is too difficult or too easy to obtain items, people will always complain lol
He doesn't even seem to consider the time it takes to kill a monster.
If a kill is slow, it should naturally be more rewarding.
"Godwars style" drop tables provide low resources because the kills are fast. When a drop is expected every 120 kills and the kills take 2 minutes, then you're expected a drop every few hours.
Nightmare is a failure because the kills are slow and the items are rare and narrow.
His issue is that he focuses too much on rate per kill rather than rate per time, resulting in thousands of hours being required to complete a bit of content (before even considering going dry).
And then his responses to criticism on social media and streams makes him come across as arrogant, which just fuels the hate he gets.
But that’s the thing though. Not every rare item should necessarily take the same amount of time to get. Heck, every drop doesn’t need to be obtainable by every person. I think the strive for completionism has slowly mitigated the allure of obtaining of truly rare items. There should be items that are impractical for most people to obtain. Thats part of the allure in my opinion. It makes acquiring individual items so much more special rather than it just being one slot of a collection log.
@@PrinceOfOpinion we already have those impractical items that most people don't get that are truly rare, they're called pets. A boss should never have "impractical rares that most people don't obtain" because that just means the playerbase will never interact with the content. Nightmare is a perfect example of that - the drops are rare but that wouldn't be the issue if the drops were actually worth getting. The truth is that even when Torva wasn't in the game yet, Inq set was a sidegrade at best to Bandos and now Torva is straight up better than Inq in most places.
@@erxike I disagree. If an piece of equipment is rare and interesting. Players will go after it. It doesn’t have to be something for ALL players though. This has been the case in mmos for ages. Not every item needs to best in slot for a given scenario just in order for it to be desirable. Sometimes the mere fact of it being difficult to obtain makes it all the more arousing. Similar third age. Why do you think they put so much work into making new high tier armor look interesting? Because players like interesting looking equipment. I personally think difficult cosmetics items should be more prevalent. As many of the newish ones don’t have much value since they’re so common. Unlike discontinued items are rare cosmetics in many other games.
Araxxor is in a sweet spot. It respects my time but doesn't spoon feed you everything instantly.
"toa uniques arent worth that much anymore" The reason uniques arent worth much is because of the toa bots.. They are flooding the market with purples but jagex is more concerned with their player count than they are the economy.
Proof? Ive never seen a bot there
@@tvortbox how high are you?
"content has to stay lucrative longterm, without devaluing other content in game"
*gestures broadly at 90% of skilling*
Vestige system could have been for example something like 1/250 for a [invisible] ring shard, while maintaining a separate ridiculous rate of something like 1/1.5k to simply get the vestige without an impact on invisible rolls.
Why do you need the extra chance to roll the full ring? Is it important to always have the opportunity to get spooned?
@@ahha2523 "Is it important to always have the opportunity to get spooned."
It's not "important" but it does make the game more fun. Getting a huge item at like 2 kc is always exciting. Having to jump through 50 hoops with things like chromium ingots, smithing levels, etc. is not fun.
@@CeeDodgy fair enough. It’s not possible to get vestige on 2kc, but 3kc it is.
The issue with adding an extra roll for the whole ring is that it would make the drop less valuable
@@ahha2523 yeah but those are just example rates. The full ring could be like 1/5k or 10k like a gwd minion drop. While keeping the on rate ring pieces to be around 1k
its a slippery slope and ppl are gonna complain no matter what. I wouldnt mind things being incredibly rare aslong as I cant go 5-7x the rate because the rng just decides to screw me and make a 500 hour grind into a 3000 hour grind. Surely there can be a middle ground where the 1-2% of players who go extremely dry can just get the drop once they pass a certain rate?
Believe me, when you are starting to go 5x plus times over rate, depending on how long and tedius the grind is, you want to close the game and never log back in again. (Nex, CG, chambers, imbued heart etc etc)
They've already implemented "dry" mechanics that give you the drop when you've gone dry. Just work on expanding it to the lowest drop rate items.
I went 3x dry for a Sara hilt 1546 kc and almost 4x for a zammy hilt 1977kc and you’re right in between those I’ve felt like taking an extended break from the game
@@S2yay If youre thinking about dt2 bosses, muspah moons of peril etc, yes. But those grinds are quick anyways in comparison to some other grinds that i mentioned.
i went 1310 for an enhanced on my iron. I did indeed start to think exactly something like this, for example once you hit the 3x or 4x mark, the drop rate halves.
@jususi71 more so the hunter rumor parts being hard capped to prevent going dry ,do a poll for a rate that people find acceptable to go dry on rare items etc
The best part about OSRS and the fundamental approach is that there is an abundance of horizontal content which gives a ton of things to do at all levels. If a player doesn't particularly like the way a boss works, or how they drop rares, or their drop table, etc. (and they aren't a c-logger or ironman) they can simply choose the bosses they do like. I love that they keep things varied in an attempt to normalize drop rates.
One of the main issues is they flood the game with grimy herbs, logs and so on. Example dropping seeds isn’t as big of an issue because you still need to farm them. That still implies pickpocketing master farmers shouldn’t be viable. That’s why the real solution is having drops from bosses be consumable like scales and so on (aka closed loop). This would make valuable boss consumable rotate. As the bis would require a different boss to be farmed. This would raise an issue I’m not sure the community would be for or against where it would require a rotation on what boss should be done.
took me almost 3k dt2 bosses total kc to get 3 ingots, 2 vestiges
i thank mod arcane everytime
Spoon
I feel you, it is just bad luck. But if the vestiges didnt drop in parts the chances of you going even more dry would be higher, depending on what bosses ure doing, ure only around 2x dry atm, which is pretty likely on bosses that doesnt have this mechanic.
Something I can agree on every day of the week tho is that the chromium ingot system is unnessecary and kinda ruins it.
Atleast you had fun the entire 3k kills, right?
I don't like his content but I believe in him. I appreciate his words of "maybe this experimental stuff is getting a bit exhausting"
Mod Arcane really said 'sorry if I come off as rude' and then drops the most articulate well argued ideas about drop philosophy. Feedback is one thing, hate is another. Ignore the redditors, keep it up!
My buddy did 2500 cg on his iron without an enhanced. I never heard from him again
Nightmare and Corp are grinds I will probably never do. The droprates just aren’t reasonable for a person with a life outside the game. Due to the possibility of also going 4-5x rate, it just isn’t worth doing. Maybe super rare stuff should have some sort of limit to drystreaks. Droprates with the possibility to go 4x or more over droprate is stupid imo. I have already gone over 3x rate on so many items to the point that I come into a piece of content assuming I will most likely go 3x rate.
Nightmare is actually over 1000+ hours. i will never do this grind with the way it is. Simply not worth it.
Imagine being 1 of the few people who go up to 10x dry aswell, yea nah I'll pass, I might go there and get a unique or 2 and then dip.
Happy that segments like this are being uploaded, as I do not listen to the podcast anymore, but am interested in certain topics. Arcane knew this would be brought up, so he essentially was reading off a prompt he prepared ahead of time. I would have liked to hear Saebae's thoughts and some banter, but the video just cuts out...
stop adding resources as rewards just stick with secondary herb ingredients… bruh
its a good idea theres zero reason to skill in this game
Just add dry protection, you can calculate out the statistical avg and narrow the standard deviation with like 2x dry protection which would turn it closer to a standard bell curve instead of being skewed right which is the part people have an issue with. The higher the denominator for the drop rate the further skewed right the time to get a drop will be, but if you add drop protection those really rare drops can still exist without being a horrible experience because you know you're making progress towards the guarunteed rate. You can look for an example of a similar mechanic from ed4 on rs3. Basically make it so you can get very lucky but not very unlucky and make it a bit rarer than gwd drops so that you don't flood the market immediately.
in my opinion after being here for like 4 months straight and only 1 axe piece, the vestige 3 drop mechanic should have been applied to the soul reaper axe pieces instead of the rings. i am now almost 1900kc the whisperer (rank top 900 on hi scores insane) everything but the staff axe piece. multiple dupe rings. also went 2k+ vardorvis for my first axe piece and multiple dupe rings there as well. i could just buy a soul reaper axe with the $ i made from just 1 boss lol
He's reading a script
I'm currently at 2.5k kc duke no axe piece
This is in my opinion why the DT bosses were so ill received. I like the vestige system I think it’s cool. I also like the soul reaper axe system requiring a drop from all 4 bosses to actually translate the drop into money.
I don’t like those two systems existing in the same boss. Getting an axe piece is like “oh I should go to the next boss and work on my axe” but you could be 2/3 on a vestige so you want your last kill to be a vestige drop. Now you’re killing the boss and you get a second axe piece and you feel like you wasted time and should’ve just been at the next boss.
Stay strong bro. My dt2 grind was just as awful. 2060 whisperer for my axe piece and 3200 for my vard axe piece
The only issue with the vestige is you know you won’t get the drop until you pass multiple checks (drops) a simple salutation is to add a chance for it to drop still. So say a guaranteed drop is 4 checks of 250 aka at 1k kc you get the drop guaranteed well also having a 1/2k drop that it just drops and resets your progress.
Would also like to see actual items drop again that are equip-able immediately, rather than it needing to be fixed or attached all the time
They have been doing that to create item sinks for old content.
@@IL_Bgentyl yeah I know but some of these niche items dont require sinks. Like burning claws why? What was the last one that didn’t need to be added on or fixed
@@mitchell2754 They did that for Burning claws because they wanted the rarity for the full item to be twice as rare as each half. Making it two drops means people are less likely to go dry. I agree, though, that we should get more drops that are equip-able immediately.
The problem is they "listen" to feedback but are usually too scared to make major changes.
The bane of good game balance is hesitation to adjust.
Or they "listen" but are too arrogant to admit that maybe they were wrong (common in Arcane and Husky)
I was on the train of wanting more godwars style drop tables back when nightmare released, and I really liked it .. I hope we get to see more of that in the future despite most people not enjoying it
you should have asked if they intend to go back and fix things like TOA drops shadow being too common on megascales ect, fang being dirt cheap
Rarity give a sense of omg i got something cool rather than a oh thats cool reaction imo.
I like the amuket of rancour. It gives a straightforward route for obtaining it. You have to have 98 crafting (boosts included), have completed Monkey Madness 2 for the demonic gorillas, have 92 slayer for Araxxor, and gear for killing all of the above. I am at a point in my account where progress feels slow nd without direction and this item has given me just that: direction.
I really liked how Sire drops work. You get an Unsired which then turns into a random unique, making it feel as though you get 2 uniques in one. I think drop presentation like that is equally as important as the drop rates.
hes reading a script.
@@user-od9mj3cx2ewe get it, weirdo
That's why they added purple lights to raids, the double dopamine effect.
344 Sire kills and still no Unsired... Never wanna kill this boss again lol
disagree. its not 2 uniques in 1 its a roll for another unique, which sucks.
i think bossing is in an awesome state. great work arcane/team.
Make more videos like this!!!!!!
guy has been talking for 2 mins and hasnt said a thing
get to the point buddy u dont gotta fluff everything up
They should make it so DT2 bosses have a rarer drop which just gives u the vestige outright. That fixes so u can get lucky. Maybe 1/3k you get a vestige while u also have the existing system.
Definitely interesting. But what if they made something that was a combination.
Like… the “components” are more common. And 5 components are used to build the weapon. But… the weapon itself, fully constructed” is also on the drop table, but incredibly rare? The components can also be broken down into charges/shards for the weapon.
So you can either get 5 components and create the weapon. Or you can get 3 components, get the weapon drop, and then those 3 components will just make it more useful. No need to imbue it with runes or something.
Jagex, hire me. lol
The roots of MMO is just grinding. A lot of ''modern'' MMOs have fell on their face when they have tried to appeal to their players(customers) by making it much faster. I could name a fair few but I'll abstain because I know people are going to be ''NUH UH ITS NOT WHY IT SUCKED!!'' well.. in my eyes that was big part of why they died or lost like 90% of their players. Patience is a skill and while it may look like a lame way to express it, it's a big part of being good at an MMO. It used to be very simplistic in the early days but now OSRS team is getting very creative and grinding isn't just clicking the same spot million times. But grinding is grinding. You can make it more interesting by introducing minigames etc but it should be a grind. That's what makes MMO an MMO in my eyes.
J mods should have to farm out logs for bosses they work on. If you make a drop so long even you aren't willing to farm it up, the drop rate is too low
Ive enjoyed araxxor's drop table. Make enough from regular loot to make a small profit over supplies and scythe charges but lose money when using blood fury and scythe, then the uniques drop at a reasonable rate to make big money from time to time
wrong but ok
@@jake9107 how am I wrong? I have over 700kc
@@02bluehawk what normal drops are you getting that supplement your costs? the teleports are the only thing thats worth anything
@jake9107 ore, dragon and rune plate legs, seeds, herbs, my loot tracker on runelite says i think 25m for 600ish kc and obviously that doesnt include the uniques as they are untradable. I may be loosing money with out uniques now that I look at how much vials of blood are but I don't sell them when I get them from tob so they are a mute point IMO I haven't had to buy vials of blood in a long ass time cause you get them often at tob
@jake9107 but yea 25m for 600kc isn't bad especially sense in that 600 I also finished the hally and got fang for rancour so I made over well over 100m
4x rate for a bloodshard killing vyres. Little dry pickpocketing vyres but its a way better way for acquiring bloodshards. Is there a reason bloodshards aren’t a reward from Theatre of Blood?
I thought Mod Jed was Andrew Gower. What a legend. Good media
we need enrage factors like TElos in rs3, i think that would work awesome.
How many times did he mention very good items & say “arent really that powerful”
Since he said it 3 times for 3 different bosses.. it makes me believe BIS is the only thing that is powerful, to him.
I appreciate his dedication to the game and what he has provided. I like rarer drops. And yes it did sound like he wrote an essay, then read it here.
Arcane kinda sounds like skillspecs lmao. i keep thinking "since when is this guy so eloquent???"
Holy shit you're right
What is the mining activity sae bae is doing?
mining bone shards
IMO... Drop rate only hurts irons..
Some items still take a 10hr grind, but has a value of like 100k on the GE.
Hurts man.
Nah, i just refuse to do Nightmare, simply because of the drop rates for Nightmare are 1/1600, which means that i could do Phantom Muspah for Venator Shards and get 16 of those at 16m a peice at about 4 minutes a kill with really mid level gear just never wants me to even attempt it. So that's what i did, i'm at 590 Muspah KC with 8 venator shards, 18 Ancient icons and the fight is way more manageable, i'd say some of the seeds drops giving me 8 ranarr or spirit 3 seeds is great but i would say it's weird for the boss to drop insane farming supplies. Yet i went for a few nightmare KC and all i got was 144 nature runes 203 Chaos Runes for a the amount of time it takes me to do 2 Phantom Muspah KC is such an egregiously long fight you get it down to 5% health then one wrong step and you're dead. I get that having rare drops FEELS better but holy shit, you're telling me i by the time i've played this game for 2 years with my 1028 Vorkath KC with my 590 Muspah KC, i can still be dry for a nightmare staff or some Orb for it from nightmare. I'm never touching that content.
Sure make drops super rare.
But for the love of god give us some kind of visible pity system so that my shrunken brain can squirt little bit "go on buddy you got 1000 kills pity shard only 2000 more for guaranteed shards for stick of 50mil at GE or lucky" juice to keep me rolling.
Never played rs3 so correct me if I'm wrong but don't they have bosses like Vorago where you risk your current loot to keep fighting the boss again but scaled harder? That sounds cool af
Yes, and they announced one coming with Varlamore P3 in the summit last week
make it more in line (zulrah drop rate) every vody i know hates the boss and does everything to not kill it anymore
What about an item that gives -200 defenses -30 prayer but a lot of luck at the very least make it a droppable item to test in leagues given were Ironmen it leagues it might even be useful
he's right
Lil bro prepared a speech longer than the one at my gradma's funeral
I feel like his job in that aspect means that he needs to be in constant communication with the content developers with the perceived difficulty in the content. Meaning that the people who are balancing the content need to have a good grasp on the curve of bosses killed per hour at all levels. For example: If players can kill Kree'ara in 15 seconds because of the new gear, if a player is using the intended methods: "Crossbow shield etc with a group" and it takes them 2 minutes to kill the boss. The people who are killing it in 15 seconds are also taking less damage leading to more kills per trip and in today's reality possibly infinite while the moderate player can get like 5-7 kills per trip then has to teleport out and reget KC. I personally think that his role shouldn't be affected by the phenomenon because there are players who are basically living on God-mode and increase their kill efficiency by huge percentages so if he has to take that into account perhaps the real issue is in the balancing of the bosses. I truly believe that the game needs to nerf prayer to 70% reduction in specific "Boss" monsters as well as reduce the efficiency of tile manipulation to bring these curves closer together. If we can get these curves close together it can make balancing drop tables a whole lot easier as well as lead the game into a more modern direction.
Fix Fang and lightbearer drop rates.
Personally I would wait until either of them drops to high alch value... and THEN make them rarer! Just like Jagex intended.
adding a drop table with very rare items because the players wanted it and then they complain when they actually have it is peak old school runescape (tho i get they're not the same people)
I think maybe even some of them are the same people, they just feel the devs misunderstood what they meant.
Arcane's example from the video, they tried to make nightmare like gwd bosses:
Bandos has most average drops worth 20-50k. It takes a minute to kill solo, and the rarest drop is 1/500
Nightmare has most drops worth 20-50k. The GM CA speed time for solo is 16 minutes, and the rarest drop is 1/960 (4 years after release after being buffed several times).
So they did successfully make a 'gwd like' drop table, with average drops covering supplies with rare big ticket items, but nightmare takes way longer to kill for way rarer drops which is the point people complain about.
nice
I think the DT2 Vestige system is pretty good, and people just feel entitled to getting spooned.
In some cases, the drop rates for rare items are astronomically high for arbitrary reasons. Getting all 4 pieces of Inq takes >300 hours from Phosani's. That's excluding all the orbs! Sigil set takes >500 hours! Fing WHY?! I will never bother with that content. Compare with Dag Kings, whose rings were BIS on release, are much more reasonable.
At some point, one must decide if they really want to spend hundreds of hours on the RNG treadmill for something that isn't even that necessary to progress your account.
why dont bosses drop straight gp? would that be a total economy killer?
alchables are pretty much already straight gp, and its probably the reason the ge tax was added
@@FizzTheFoxGE tax was added because everything is profitable so good supply only goes up making gold less valuable. We still have that issue though the tax helps.
Yes, inflation. Best drops recently design wise imo were the sunfire splinters. They are useful, valuable and consumable.
Was Arcane reading from a script most of it?
Ever since ironman was a thing people constantly complain about drops lol it's a shame.
God this fucking guy. All this waffling for the worst drop tables known to man.
Edit:
I wanna clarify that I don't dislike mod arcane or his content, just get someone else to make the drop tables.
the fang shouldve been as rare as shadow imo
im glad you dont work at gagex
I think getting a 170m tbow shard would help my account A LOT more than not getting a tbow. just saying
economic is so importen for us that bots make all items extremly cheap wtf is he saying, and to top it off, 1million is like 1 cent nowdays
20 cents per mil
he's reading a script.
@@user-od9mj3cx2e the economi is destroyed, idk what hes sasying, there litterly so many stuff you need for pvm and skilling, but those are so dirt cheap, that its never ever worth to do it yourself. runecrafting kekw, mining kekw, everything skilling orinanted have gone to shit. and he saying "ecnomi is very importen for us" are they this delusional?
After listening to this whole video, it seems like Arcane just speaks in circles here complaining about the difficulty of implementing a "good" drop table. No offence, but if drop tables not being insane and wayyy too time consuming is too difficult for you to implement, pass it onto someone else. You clearly have tried, and failed, many times at it. Just stop. You've added so much garbage into the game, leave the remaining goodwill for someone more qualified.
This guy and Manked are the reason many people dislike the direction the game has taken since 2021. Combine Mechanically stressful and repetitive bosses with terrible drop tables with the cat and mouse game that they are pushing the wildy towards incessantly and it just becomes frustrating and unrewarding. Bending over backwards implementing changes to appeal to a small minority of the playerbase makes us wonder: Is the game pushing me to play it, or is it intentionally trying to steer me away at this point?
If these two JMods stepped down, the game would vastly improve IMO.
Mod arcane running all the bot farms.
the only really silly drop rate was the anchoring scroll on release, i think its been good otherwise, if
every everyone has everything, nothing is special.
he sounds like hes reading a script
He said he prepared a spiel, so he doesn’t even sound like it, he is.
Is there anything wrong with making sure his words are accurate?
@@leeman4499 apparently writing up a well worded and thought out response ahead of time somehow invalidates what people have to say lol
So?
@@leeman4499 it shows he disingenuous and not speaking his actual mind. To avoid bad PR. The higher ups clearly wrote it for him
@@air5723 Only for this specific topic. Most likely because his true opinions would not be well received
I dont always agree with Mod Arcane but I do respect him and I trust the game is in good hands with him. Sometimes he misses this is the folly of man.
Jk. fuck Mod Arcane im cancelling him on twitter!
Holy moly could he get to the point?
Two minutes in and all he's done so far is talk about how he's going to talk :D
Just kidding, cool video.
I don't listen to podcasts to listen to scripts. Seriously?
Of course there's a helmet next to his name. Some items are rare! De-iron or get the fuck over it!
i'm dry on bowfa right now on my iron so yeah fuck this guy who wastes to much time, araxxor tables have been trash
???????? Araxxor rates have been the actual first breath of fresh air in ages when it comes to drop rates wtf are you on about
It will come. I was also dry on bow and it sucked but looking back i wouldnt have chose another way. I have endless gp and am much better at the game
You are playing the wrong game then.
FIRST
lets keep it clean. Rates are designed for neets on a 20 year old game where most of the player base are older and working.
We will accept it, and just leave this game in the dust with community servers. Have fun
Why havent you been streaming @saebae
to make a living