Yes that is a good point. The Universal carrier upgrade uses a unique Vickers K (for instance it goes to 40 range compared to 35 for most small arms fire) which didn't get changed. Just the infantry held Vickers K is impacted by this issue.
Not that I'm nearly as experienced as some people here. But I've found heavy sappers with two brens and a vickers to be absolute god tier when defending emplacements, probably just through sheer dps.
If you have the spare resources, the Heavy Sapper Vickers doesn't actually take a weapon slot, allowing you to combo it with two brens for some devastating DPS vs infantry
Definitely going to come on board as a patreon One question though since we on the topic of weapons Are the IR STGs on the obersoldaten better than the LMGs? Obviously both are used differently in different situations but overall.. Great work on the videos man the community really appreciates them
it's depends on the map . I like the STGs but in open big maps they are hard to use but the best thing about the STGs they have a bonus against unit in cover just like the flamethrower🔥
Obers with STGs generally beat LMG obers in long range. This happens because of the several factors: IR STGs have only 10% penalty when shooting units in cover, they do more damage per hit (6 points per hit just as MG-34 does, but these 6 points are inlflicted by one STG meaning 2 can deal 12 damage per hit), they have good range accuracy. By the way, they have only 10 percent accuracy penalty on the move. Also they have increased detection range (somewhat like 15 meters instead of 5) and sight.
@@Weakest_tank_enjoyer I did not realize they gave additional sight and detection. It's been a long time since I used them, do they fill the squad's weapon slots?
Even with the enemy in cover the LMG does more damage at absolute max range. So if you have a lot of long range out of cover fights the LMG is better. If you have a lot of fights inside 25 range in cover then IR STG is better.
From a historical perspective this is very weird. The Bren was more akin to the BAR in its usage IIRC, and the Vickers K more akin to an actual light machine gun like the M1919 or MG42.
Yep, the Bren was specifically designed with marching fire capabilities in mind. In fact, the australians loved it because of how accurate it was even while moving and being fired at the hip, so they performed marching fire with the bren a lot.
@@richardbrayshaw9963 ugh, thats sad to hear, I have almost 2k hours in Coh2 and planned to put in another 2k more :( Hope CoH3 is good enough to replace it
@@richardbrayshaw9963 yeah it's unfortunate. And they don't have to do any work other then the patching to Steam (which is super easy but they still manage to f something up almost every time). With that said though almost no devs fixes all bugs. We should be happy they kept support for long enough for the balance team to get somewhat decent balance. But would be great with just one more balance patch, to fix op units like 120mm, Scott and Thompson's (mostly ass sections but Thompson's in general is too good)
I still love the pure sound of daka when you give Heavy Engies double Vickers from the halftrack. Not to mention a vet 3 Heavy sapper squad can take a beating + cost less to reinforce. I like to pair them with the officer for support. Another neat thing is 1 triple vicker sapper and 1 double vicker officer in one halftrack is a full 5 vicker mobile gun platform that surprisingly is good at harassment/chasing. Speaking of, the Special Weapons Detachment commander. Is it me or are Boys Sections still pretty decent at fighting infantry? Like a non upgrade to Piat AT section. In contrast to like giving Penals PTRSs or Riflemen zooks.
I did some testing and yes the AT Sections that are not using PIATs are indeed on par with Bolstered Infantry Sections when it comes to fighting infantry. Even in 1 model vs 1 model scenarios they tend to win in heavy cover. So hey take that as you will :)
AT sections are pretty accurate with their AT rifles, like guards do. They can be used like regular sections in early games. (But why use them since sappers are so much better?)
Using Vicker Ks dropped from the half-track has two advantages though: you can skip teching Weapon Racks, and you don't need to retreat to base to pick up the new weapons. Also, we still don't know how the LMG compares to regular Infantry Section's Lee Enfields on the move
Yeah, I appreciate the community patches that really breathed new life into the game and kept it alive with the new maps, units, and balance changes.... But you're telling me you couldn't have one guy occasionally do small fixes and add new community made maps to the game? All hands on deck for CoH 3 doesn't have to mean literally no support for CoH 2 at all. It's not a good look imo, and does sour me on the idea of CoH 3. Especially if CoH 3 doesn't do well and you look at how Warhammer 3 did and is doing currently. I'm cautiously optimistic about CoH 3 but yeah, wish they'd do better by us.
Yeah... Gotta say that my triple Vickers K royal sappers didn't feel nearly as powerful of a close range specialist as I imagined they would be. Now I know why.
very little damage increase at max range, better to get 45 muni brens than spend 60 on Vickers K.. also generally Bren on rifle wielding troops and Vickers K on Sten wielding.
So we have a game, which is almost 10 years old, and still has a bunch of bugs. I already see, that Coh3 will have patches after patches even after 6-8 years after release :))
Ya know, if they really intend to keep this 'bug' in the game, then they should bring back the M3 Halftrack being able to drop the Vickers K LMGs and Piats
Strange test, the alternative to the vickers K is not the BAR its the Bren and the Bren cant be fired on the move at all. Exception being Commandos ofcourse. So its more relevant to look at increased cost of the Vickers vs Bren and performance of these two against eachother. Edit: the vickers gets completely shat on in every situation by the bren. Multiple range cover to cover and open ground fights done with normal sections and raid sections. Makes the video more clear that the one thing the Vickers are supposed to be better at than the Bren they also suck at.
The example is because when the Vickers K was redesigned the BAR was used as the basis (with slightly better long range, worse close IIRC) so in this test its moving performance should be very similar. It shows how badly broken it is compared to where it should be. The vickers K will have better performance than the bren inside 20 range stationary.
@@tightropegaming Yeah i thought the Vickers had some business competing with the Bren at longer ranges aswell. But when i tried it i found out it really doesnt.
According to serealia, Vickers outpreform the brens from 10 range onward, and as you need to stand still with both weapons to fire them, why not use the Vickers?
@@tightropegaming I didn't ignore that, but now I got some clarification on how to read the serealia stats. I thought the stats would still be kinda the same when standing still
Imo no. They have commando dps and no with or without Vickers they need to close in (preferably to within 10 range) to be good/effective. And given that the Vickers doesn't add any dps within 10 range. So the officers has to move a lot witch is bad for the Vickers. Even without the bug it would be a low priority upgrade. With the bug I would say it maybe (probably) the downside outweigh the upside (better long range dps) even if the upgrade were free.
Despite this bug, when considering them for regular sections it is stills a straight upgrade at all ranges and can fir on the move. The alternative is bren which makes you worse at close range and cannot be fired on the move. Yes Vickers is not as huge a dps increase than the brens at long range but it is not a 'side'-grade like the bren. It's not like you have the option to get bars for sections.
It's a dps downgrade on the move. And the Raid section literally out dpses Grens with the Brens. The Bren being worse at close range is offset by the raid sections 3 rifles. Only situation I see the vickers K being better is if you're sitting around a corner and a squad of MP40 Storms or Sturmpios turn on you. Too niche to be anything but a meme :P
@Ryan Vetter They certainly have. The video compares Vickers K and Lee Enfield when used by RAID Sections. The rifles used by the regular Infantry Sections and Raid Sections are different. When firing on the move, Vickers K is possibly better than the Lee Enfield on Infantry Sections
The data is wrong written as posted patch but they kept not patching Damn Relic patch team even doesn't fix the errors Tightrope you have powers to tell patch teams to fix these errors. Tell them please!
It's as if brits need the least amount of changes to become a much more viable pick I feel like. If only tommy sections had acess to AT grenades, if only the vickers hmg had better supression...
"so in long range out of cover fight against LG granadiers the raid section win 100% of the time" but hey, "axis op" ._. still, great video mr. tightrope
LMGs are standard weapon, which can be upgraded in any part of the map, as long as you are in friendly territory when you started. The come after the first industry upgrade, which you gonna do it anyway. Same thing goes for the Stgs of OKW. Raid section come with a special commander only which can be upgraded after you have come to the base and of course you have paid extra fuel for the upgrade. Which is not on the standard package of next upgrade for sniper, AT etc. In addition, volksgrenadiers can have traits that increase accuracy, cooldown speed, cheaper panzerfausts etc which raids don't or are super rare to get. Generally it is much easier to get vet 3 volksgrenadiers than raids. Finally, volksgrenadiers come with panzerfaust and rifle grande twice the range of all other units killing on impact. So it cannot be killed by the light vehicle like universal carrier or armor car. A Raid section can be retreated or killed by a single scout car. Generally in terms of units Wehrmacht is the most OP faction you can play w8th. Easiest to micro manage and the most forgiving especially late game with the tanks like Panzer 4, Panther and Tiger1 being at some point impossible to kill. Despite that fact I found that the most toxic faction is OKW fallschirmjaeger blobs or greanadiers STG blobs. They may not have the sniper but they have Jaeger with G43 who can win all the long range engagements almost after vet 2. Can we really say they are OP? The game in comparison to other games is pretty balanced but if it was to be an OP unit or faction that defenately wouldn't be Raid section in my opinion, just because they better in very certain circumstances or scenarios. Facts show otherwise and typically excel as scavenging units. Never seen them as ally or enemy being extensively used as Raid blobs with double brens.
@@HazardousMoose that you are forgetting that they might be more costly(280 MP vs 240 MP), but they have 5 members, and that most axis units only get 1 LMG without the possibility to get a second one (unless you are lucky and get your hands in droped allied LMG or loose a unit and it drops it's MG 42) and you still can upgrade the raid section them with the bren if required. so unfair, axis op :c also I deleted te other coment by mistake v:
@@mr.pilchard4548 I'm not forgetting that they have 5 men. and I know that grens can only get 1 lmg. I'm simply making the point that the raid section is a more expensive, commander exclusive squad, that is supposed to be good without cover. Along with a more expensive weapon upgrade. So them winning vs LMG grens is to be expected. it says nothing about anything being OP or not. And just for fun I could add that the vickers requires weapon rack unlock. If grens with a 60 mun upgrade would be evenly matched it would be bonkers. Becaues that would completely negate the raid sections throughout the enitre midgame, since the Ostheer would always be ahead, since by the time one raid sections has vickers, they'd have 2 LMG grens. And since the vickers is bugged and not worth 60 mun that's pretty much what's happening anyways.
But the vickers on the Small car is still good I think, that thing shreds!
Yes that is a good point. The Universal carrier upgrade uses a unique Vickers K (for instance it goes to 40 range compared to 35 for most small arms fire) which didn't get changed.
Just the infantry held Vickers K is impacted by this issue.
Thanks for doing a video about the vickers. Been wanting for months on what to choose between Vickers and Brens.
Not that I'm nearly as experienced as some people here. But I've found heavy sappers with two brens and a vickers to be absolute god tier when defending emplacements, probably just through sheer dps.
Triple vickers with special weapons commander
Like he said, the accuracy is only affecting moving and shooting so this makes sense
probably the brens doing the lion's share of the damage, and also due in no small part to the sappers' infantry armor, shared only by shock troops.
I thought shock troops were the only ones that got increase armour value@@snaek2594 any idea what the armour value is ?
If you have the spare resources, the Heavy Sapper Vickers doesn't actually take a weapon slot, allowing you to combo it with two brens for some devastating DPS vs infantry
Thanks for the explanation and examples!
Always nice to get the numbers behind something, I figured out from gameplay, but never really knew why. Great vid!
I choose Vickers-K for the sound!
确实好听😌
Getting nam flashbacks to all the munitions i've wasted on my brit forces.
Definitely going double bren from now on.
Thank you for the advice. I usually play as British in COH2 and this is good to know.
Does the Heavy sappers upgrade still give armor (1.25) as you listed in video?
I thought they removed that (but not sure).
Yeah it got reduced from 2 armour when the movement penalty also got removed IIRC
@@tightropegaming I tested their move speed after someone asked in a reddit thread and found that they don't move any slower than regular squads.
@@GoodOlKuro it was an old feature where the Heavy Sappers would be limited to walking speeds while in COMBAT ONLY. It was patched out a while ago
@@imperatornoinga3646 oh I didn't know about the combat part.
Definitely going to come on board as a patreon
One question though since we on the topic of weapons
Are the IR STGs on the obersoldaten better than the LMGs? Obviously both are used differently in different situations but overall..
Great work on the videos man the community really appreciates them
it's depends on the map . I like the STGs but in open big maps they are hard to use but the best thing about the STGs they have a bonus against unit in cover just like the flamethrower🔥
Obers with STGs generally beat LMG obers in long range. This happens because of the several factors: IR STGs have only 10% penalty when shooting units in cover, they do more damage per hit (6 points per hit just as MG-34 does, but these 6 points are inlflicted by one STG meaning 2 can deal 12 damage per hit), they have good range accuracy. By the way, they have only 10 percent accuracy penalty on the move. Also they have increased detection range (somewhat like 15 meters instead of 5) and sight.
@@Weakest_tank_enjoyer I did not realize they gave additional sight and detection. It's been a long time since I used them, do they fill the squad's weapon slots?
@@soth897 yes
Even with the enemy in cover the LMG does more damage at absolute max range. So if you have a lot of long range out of cover fights the LMG is better. If you have a lot of fights inside 25 range in cover then IR STG is better.
From a historical perspective this is very weird. The Bren was more akin to the BAR in its usage IIRC, and the Vickers K more akin to an actual light machine gun like the M1919 or MG42.
Yep, the Bren was specifically designed with marching fire capabilities in mind. In fact, the australians loved it because of how accurate it was even while moving and being fired at the hip, so they performed marching fire with the bren a lot.
Can i ask how do you change the game to actually show you numbers and % instead of vague "improves accuracy" etc.?
look up my veterancy mod video
Awesome video. Relic just has to edit 1 value to fix this... why haven't they? Any idea?
Team of devs for coh2 is dead
support ended, as coh3 is on the horizon.
@@richardbrayshaw9963 ugh, thats sad to hear, I have almost 2k hours in Coh2 and planned to put in another 2k more :(
Hope CoH3 is good enough to replace it
@@mystikast yeah I agree. it's really crappy of them to drop it whilst it still has bugs
@@richardbrayshaw9963 yeah it's unfortunate. And they don't have to do any work other then the patching to Steam (which is super easy but they still manage to f something up almost every time).
With that said though almost no devs fixes all bugs. We should be happy they kept support for long enough for the balance team to get somewhat decent balance. But would be great with just one more balance patch, to fix op units like 120mm, Scott and Thompson's (mostly ass sections but Thompson's in general is too good)
I still love the pure sound of daka when you give Heavy Engies double Vickers from the halftrack. Not to mention a vet 3 Heavy sapper squad can take a beating + cost less to reinforce. I like to pair them with the officer for support.
Another neat thing is 1 triple vicker sapper and 1 double vicker officer in one halftrack is a full 5 vicker mobile gun platform that surprisingly is good at harassment/chasing.
Speaking of, the Special Weapons Detachment commander. Is it me or are Boys Sections still pretty decent at fighting infantry? Like a non upgrade to Piat AT section. In contrast to like giving Penals PTRSs or Riflemen zooks.
I did some testing and yes the AT Sections that are not using PIATs are indeed on par with Bolstered Infantry Sections when it comes to fighting infantry. Even in 1 model vs 1 model scenarios they tend to win in heavy cover.
So hey take that as you will :)
AT sections are pretty accurate with their AT rifles, like guards do. They can be used like regular sections in early games. (But why use them since sappers are so much better?)
I like it cause I like the sound it makes.
Using Vicker Ks dropped from the half-track has two advantages though: you can skip teching Weapon Racks, and you don't need to retreat to base to pick up the new weapons. Also, we still don't know how the LMG compares to regular Infantry Section's Lee Enfields on the move
Its pretty nuts they havent fixed it....A small update to fix it wouldnt take much lol
Yeah, I appreciate the community patches that really breathed new life into the game and kept it alive with the new maps, units, and balance changes....
But you're telling me you couldn't have one guy occasionally do small fixes and add new community made maps to the game? All hands on deck for CoH 3 doesn't have to mean literally no support for CoH 2 at all.
It's not a good look imo, and does sour me on the idea of CoH 3. Especially if CoH 3 doesn't do well and you look at how Warhammer 3 did and is doing currently.
I'm cautiously optimistic about CoH 3 but yeah, wish they'd do better by us.
@@GeeNo_ maybe, once they finish coh3 deadline, we will see something change for good. just tiny fixes like this
will it ever be patchet?
Bro, you're a bloody legend. End of story.
Yeah... Gotta say that my triple Vickers K royal sappers didn't feel nearly as powerful of a close range specialist as I imagined they would be. Now I know why.
It may also be because of focus fire that vickers-K has
Informative as always. Thanks!
Classy as usual my good sir.
uh how is a vickers k a fire on the move gun, its almost 10lb heavier than bren loaded and dont even have a place to hold it
So I should get Bren for Raid Section instead right?
Yes. Don't waste muni on vickers ever. Brens just better
What a handsome man! Can't wait for the coh3 content.
Does anyone know if the vickers K still does more damage than the standard sten gun on a Assault Officer or Heavy Royal engineer on the move?
Machine guns slightly effective at long range, but nearly useless at short distances
can you make a similar video for Airbourne Guards ?
With this bug, the special truck in the Special Weapons Commander is unfortunately gutted due to the fact that it gives Vickers K and not Bren :(
Yeah pretty much when you consider how much worse it is than the USF M3 in other areas.
How about Vickers vs Bren stationary dps? I'm a big fan of getting the M3 and skipping the weapon racks.
very little damage increase at max range, better to get 45 muni brens than spend 60 on Vickers K..
also generally Bren on rifle wielding troops and Vickers K on Sten wielding.
It's still not fixed?
But it sounds cool 😂😜
Yeah it does
Is this bug fixt buy know
So we have a game, which is almost 10 years old, and still has a bunch of bugs. I already see, that Coh3 will have patches after patches even after 6-8 years after release :))
prefer vickers K back when it was clone of m1919a6 lol
Is the Vickers still bugged?
yes
Ya know, if they really intend to keep this 'bug' in the game, then they should bring back the M3 Halftrack being able to drop the Vickers K LMGs and Piats
Greta video tightrope, I should give brits another shot!!
I thought it was a larger MG so I leave it on my sappers so they have more firepower while defending.
Strange test, the alternative to the vickers K is not the BAR its the Bren and the Bren cant be fired on the move at all.
Exception being Commandos ofcourse.
So its more relevant to look at increased cost of the Vickers vs Bren and performance of these two against eachother.
Edit: the vickers gets completely shat on in every situation by the bren.
Multiple range cover to cover and open ground fights done with normal sections and raid sections.
Makes the video more clear that the one thing the Vickers are supposed to be better at than the Bren they also suck at.
The example is because when the Vickers K was redesigned the BAR was used as the basis (with slightly better long range, worse close IIRC) so in this test its moving performance should be very similar. It shows how badly broken it is compared to where it should be.
The vickers K will have better performance than the bren inside 20 range stationary.
@@tightropegaming Yeah i thought the Vickers had some business competing with the Bren at longer ranges aswell. But when i tried it i found out it really doesnt.
According to serealia, Vickers outpreform the brens from 10 range onward, and as you need to stand still with both weapons to fire them, why not use the Vickers?
Did you ignore when I said the vickers got redesigned to be similar to the BAR? Serelia doesn't have the updated weapon.
@@tightropegaming I didn't ignore that, but now I got some clarification on how to read the serealia stats. I thought the stats would still be kinda the same when standing still
engineers still get armor? thought that was removed? --nvm saw your response to a similar comment.
So is it worth getting it on the officer?
Imo no. They have commando dps and no with or without Vickers they need to close in (preferably to within 10 range) to be good/effective. And given that the Vickers doesn't add any dps within 10 range. So the officers has to move a lot witch is bad for the Vickers. Even without the bug it would be a low priority upgrade. With the bug I would say it maybe (probably) the downside outweigh the upside (better long range dps) even if the upgrade were free.
Despite this bug, when considering them for regular sections it is stills a straight upgrade at all ranges and can fir on the move. The alternative is bren which makes you worse at close range and cannot be fired on the move.
Yes Vickers is not as huge a dps increase than the brens at long range but it is not a 'side'-grade like the bren. It's not like you have the option to get bars for sections.
It's a dps downgrade on the move. And the Raid section literally out dpses Grens with the Brens. The Bren being worse at close range is offset by the raid sections 3 rifles. Only situation I see the vickers K being better is if you're sitting around a corner and a squad of MP40 Storms or Sturmpios turn on you. Too niche to be anything but a meme :P
@Ryan Vetter They certainly have. The video compares Vickers K and Lee Enfield when used by RAID Sections. The rifles used by the regular Infantry Sections and Raid Sections are different. When firing on the move, Vickers K is possibly better than the Lee Enfield on Infantry Sections
thanks
I feel like the USF got weaker? Is it me or does anyone else feels the same?
The data is wrong written as posted patch but they kept not patching
Damn Relic patch team even doesn't fix the errors
Tightrope you have powers to tell patch teams to fix these errors. Tell them please!
Why are raid sections just better????
They had vet 3 in these tests. On vet 0 they would probably lost to bolstered tommies.
So.. heres my question.......... why don't they fix it?
You don't get to tell me what to do
are vickers good for the infantry squad?
Nah
Stay behind cover; exist
Vickers company accuracy + 3.00
It's as if brits need the least amount of changes to become a much more viable pick I feel like. If only tommy sections had acess to AT grenades, if only the vickers hmg had better supression...
Why waste your precious life for Vickers of any kind, K or stationary when you can have Bren.
"Famous" XD
i'll use it more then.
#Relic, please fix
Community update alright ......
what an epic fail
"so in long range out of cover fight against LG granadiers the raid section win 100% of the time"
but hey, "axis op" ._.
still, great video mr. tightrope
LMGs are standard weapon, which can be upgraded in any part of the map, as long as you are in friendly territory when you started. The come after the first industry upgrade, which you gonna do it anyway. Same thing goes for the Stgs of OKW. Raid section come with a special commander only which can be upgraded after you have come to the base and of course you have paid extra fuel for the upgrade. Which is not on the standard package of next upgrade for sniper, AT etc. In addition, volksgrenadiers can have traits that increase accuracy, cooldown speed, cheaper panzerfausts etc which raids don't or are super rare to get. Generally it is much easier to get vet 3 volksgrenadiers than raids. Finally, volksgrenadiers come with panzerfaust and rifle grande twice the range of all other units killing on impact. So it cannot be killed by the light vehicle like universal carrier or armor car. A Raid section can be retreated or killed by a single scout car. Generally in terms of units Wehrmacht is the most OP faction you can play w8th. Easiest to micro manage and the most forgiving especially late game with the tanks like Panzer 4, Panther and Tiger1 being at some point impossible to kill. Despite that fact I found that the most toxic faction is OKW fallschirmjaeger blobs or greanadiers STG blobs. They may not have the sniper but they have Jaeger with G43 who can win all the long range engagements almost after vet 2. Can we really say they are OP? The game in comparison to other games is pretty balanced but if it was to be an OP unit or faction that defenately wouldn't be Raid section in my opinion, just because they better in very certain circumstances or scenarios. Facts show otherwise and typically excel as scavenging units. Never seen them as ally or enemy being extensively used as Raid blobs with double brens.
raid sections cost more MP, are commander specific and the weapon upgrade costs 120 mun vs 60 for the MG 42...
@@mr.pilchard4548 What exactly is the point you're trying to make?
@@HazardousMoose that you are forgetting that they might be more costly(280 MP vs 240 MP), but they have 5 members, and that most axis units only get 1 LMG without the possibility to get a second one (unless you are lucky and get your hands in droped allied LMG or loose a unit and it drops it's MG 42) and you still can upgrade the raid section them with the bren if required.
so unfair, axis op :c
also I deleted te other coment by mistake v:
@@mr.pilchard4548 I'm not forgetting that they have 5 men. and I know that grens can only get 1 lmg. I'm simply making the point that the raid section is a more expensive, commander exclusive squad, that is supposed to be good without cover. Along with a more expensive weapon upgrade. So them winning vs LMG grens is to be expected. it says nothing about anything being OP or not.
And just for fun I could add that the vickers requires weapon rack unlock.
If grens with a 60 mun upgrade would be evenly matched it would be bonkers. Becaues that would completely negate the raid sections throughout the enitre midgame, since the Ostheer would always be ahead, since by the time one raid sections has vickers, they'd have 2 LMG grens. And since the vickers is bugged and not worth 60 mun that's pretty much what's happening anyways.
I dont use the brits. So yeah thats that🎉
Yeah noobs
Buy winrar please
#fixIt 🤣