In John 18:37, Jesus said, "... . To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice."
In Iran, I read a book when I was in high school. The book was written by an Iranian writer in Persian. In the book, the writer explains and provides evidence that Mecca was built to improve the Arab economy, improving the economy is the main purpose of Mecca. That is why all Muslim have a religious duty to go to Mecca to visit Allah. Later the Islamic killed that Iranian writer and stopped his book.
While Dr Jay's analysis are very plausable, yet delving deeper stems the question: Why n what caused Zubair to take the black stone to Mecca. Was it only bcos it was his village ?? Or is there another more compelling reason... Tkx for enlightening us !!
@Forgiving Fragrance Yes, they are...All three religions Islam, Christianity and Zoroastrian are Abrahamic religion,both Christanity and Islam are derived from Zoroastrian traditions...I am not belittling any religion...just providing the information ....
Do you know, from my place there are many ex-muslim TH-camrs because they are educated and they realized the truth that they were following just a tribal man and his God.
With respect, Dr. Jay, I believe you missed the one thing that Mecca had going for it in your closing remarks: it was good militarily. Exactly because it was in the middle of nowhere, it made for a good hidey-hole when they were moving the Ka'aba. They could make up a backstory narrative later, after surviving the Civil War.
I think it was Mel at Sneakers Corner who showed an 11th century map. The center of the map was at a point exactly due north of present day Mecca only on the current N. Iraq border. When Patricia Crone described the first written description of where Mecca was located, it corresponds to that point at the center of that map.
Mel does not interpret correctly the map in question - the place indicated corresponds to Petra, not any area in the North of Irak (meaning that the map confirms Gibson's theory about the place where Islam started) - it's astonishing that Mel makes such mistake because the error is pretty obvious...
I hope you get this comment, Jay. I have tried to say thanks a couple of times and they have disappeared (TH-cam bots doing their nefarious work I suppose). Anyway, thank you for your kind words and I do hope we get a chance to do coffee sometime. I think I could learn a lot from that. This last year, despite the grief of a nasty pandemic, has been one of my favourite because I have seen you and others turn history on its ear. Learning doesn't get cooler than that! Thanks too for the particular categorization you used to simplify the issue. That was helpful. Finally, thanks for the answer which, as you said, I probably already knew or at least suspected (because I frequent Pfander Films.)
Dear Mr. Smith, I'm afraid I have to disagree with you on one point. Mecca is not a poor choice. From a political point of view, the choice of this location is almost brilliant. If I were to choose a place to religiously legitimize my rule, I would choose a place with no history of its own, no population of its own. A place where I can give MY story and a people devoted to ME myself. Tabula rasa. A place with its own history and population would only be a nuisance. I would choose a place like Mecca.
I can think of one very good reason to choose Mecca. It was a tabla rasa. If you want to build up a myth for the sake of a religion, you do not want abundant local evidence of anything else except what you are going to concoct. If there had been a lot of locals who had an investment in any kind of notable past, it would have been necessary to wipe the slate clean at Mecca before making up stories about it. The KIND of stories that would be inserted into and around Mecca were easily to be found in the geography, customs and even some religious ceremonies of Petra. Mecca was well away from prying eyes; very few in the north could assert that the new Mecca story was not true, for who had ever been there, or who had lived there for a long time? Who had beliefs from Mecca that ran contrary to the new mythology? By the time of the Abbasids, Mecca was not a military or political power that could resist or dispute the imposition of a myth. It was not an economic power, or any other kind of power. But because your new religion would be sending pilgrims that way, increasing property values, and supplying prestige to place of utter insignificance, the locals would mostly be right on board with the new religion, and the new Mecca Myth. All of this seems to me a very good reason to choose Mecca - the fact that it was a rather distant blank slate upon which to build and would offer no resistance. Plus, as you mention, the fact that the stone was already there. Surely a sign from Allah! .
Jesus said he didn’t know the day or hour of his return though his Father did know it but I thought there was only one person subsisting in two natures!? he cannot have two minds, one that knew something and another that did not know something, unless we now want to make the absurd claim that mind and person are not correlated so if Jesus was God, he did know everything and lied about not knowing the day of his return…but if Jesus lied then he cannot be God, for God cannot lie (Titus 1.2) Jesus did not know everything because he wasn’t God
God made man in His image. Man has a body, a mind and a soul. Therefore, God has three parts. Though I have a body, a mind and a soul, I am indeed one. Just because Jesus CHOSE not to utilize his full power and full knowledge doesn't mean He didn't have the capacity to do so. At any given time Jesus could have used His power to strike down any single evil minded person, but He didn't and likewise He didn't use His ability to know the day or the hour. Jesus had the power to see the day and hour, but chose not to. He was God in the flesh, He said, "the Father and I are one". Jesus also was worshipped by many when He rode on a donkey, and He did not rebuke them for it. If He were not God, why would He allow people to worship Him? And other support for it I have from the scriptures, but usually people who reject the idea that Jesus was God refuse to accept it even if the scriptures say so . It's ok, everyone has the right to believe as they wish. God bless!
@Forgiving Fragrance when Jesus said that He was not saying He can do nothing at all, else He couldn't walk, talk or move. So you MUST read that in context, this is what was happening, the Jews were angry at Jesus because He healed a man on the Sabbath and they wanted to kill Him. Jesus was indicating that He does the will of His Father, not the natural will of a man. It is in the nature of a man to have certain tendencies, but Jesus(being fully man and fully God) did not follow the natural tendencies of the human flesh, He never sinned and never lied, He did the will of His Father. Therefore Jesus was not saying He could do nothing, obviously He had just HEALED A MAN, so it wouldn't make any sense if He had meant that He could do nothing at all. He was saying basically that He had done the will of God, not the human will of the flesh, He could do nothing but the will of the Father.
In my opinion it was put there, because no foreign power, not Rome, not Byzantium, not the Sassanids (Persia), not the Egyptians, could conquer it there.
More like those Empires would have no reason to bother with some Arabs running around in the desert! It wasn't until they(Arabs) started attacking everyone that the rest of the world even took serious notice of them.
@Reinhard Von müsel they have been proven wrong over and over already. The whole narrative of Islam is a fabrication and cannot withstand even the slightest scrutiny
The choice initially may have been by accident as the black stone was brought there. But maybe part of the answer is also that because the new Mecca had no history and no people, nobody was going to dispute this choice. Maybe it was convenient that Mecca had no history and no people, it keeps problems away. Of course, since Mo's biographers had never been to Mecca they didn't realize their errors but at the time it seemed convenient. Petra destroyed so no protest from there and Mecca happy because they were getting visitors. And as nobody lived there, it posed no danger to the new rulers or anybody else. So, after the initial accidental choice, everybody stuck to it out of convenience and only when people started studying the late sources critically, the discrepencies became clear. That would be my preferred explanation.
The trade route. So great to hear. Now I understand what my father said 25 yesrs ago. He took the Bible (he is not religious) and showed me the trade routes from Afrika to Arabia.
Better to locate to a spot that has no history then to a spot that has a history that would contradict the history that the creators of Islam concocted which any person living in an already inhabited area with know.
1) There was nobody there to contradict the narrative. 2) See 1). 3) See 1). Nobody to conquer, either. 4) See 1). There was no money interest to fight for, and money wasn't the reason for Mecca's foundation. 5) See 1). There was nobody else who cared about Mecca, no religion (not even pagan) that cared to fight for it.
(12:50) I disagree with the argument that the Red Sea is too shallow for boats to travel close to the Arabian peninsula. The depth in the middle of the Red Sea (red line) is 2km to 3km, the flanking areas (yellow lines) vary from 1,000m to 150m deep on both sides. Moreover, the largest boats of the time would only need a water depth of around 5m at peak low tide, which is easily achieved on both sides of the Red Sea. Look for the bathymetry picture in the paper: "Characterization of the northern Red Sea's oceanic features with remote sensing data and outputs from a global circulation model".
Thanks John. That's helpful. The greater problem would have been the provisions. There are just no water sources or vegetation on the Arabian side, while there was on the African side. That is why there are 5 well-known trading towns which have existed along the African coast since the 3rd century BC, all spaced about a day's sailing apart, and no equivalent on the Arabian side.
@@pfanderfilms another point is the Arabian penensular is a desert with no vegetation whereas the African coast has vegetation and hinterland of natural produce.
Dan Gibson dropped a bombshell when he basically said all the hadiths are written by the abassids none by the ummayids He related the reign of the Abbasids to the first dating of the hadiths
Which makes me wonder if the censorship of collect saying and manuscripts in the earlier years led to the exclusion of Petra references specifically not thinking it would be so well scrutinized later.
@John Wick John, I actually bought Dan Gibsons book after watching his documentary "The Sacred City" and so I bought "Early Islamic Qiblas" to follow up on this. "You claim that all mosques face Petra without providing academic evidence" is either a lie on your part or willful ignorance on your part either way Dan Gibson research is approved by many scholars who helped with his research. However, on Pg. 113 in the book it reads "....Out of 60+ plus Mosques I have listed, 15 of the early mosques appear to have had a qibla directed towards Petra, while 9 point directly between Petra and Mecca and 6 African and Spanish mosques have a qibla that is generally parallel to a line drawn between Petra and Mecca. When these are placed on a timeline, we can clearly see that Petra was the original Qibla, before other Qiblas were introduced. Today only Mecca remains"... Dont spread lies about a man and his research when you havent even read his own book. Isnt that what Muslims say all the time to non-Muslims about the Quran and Mohammad? To not do what you're doing to Dan? Its a very interesting theory that seems to have some decent credibility to it.
@John Wick Name what you call "real scholars" and cite their work. Then your comments might hold some weights. Otherwise it is just a seriously triggered abdool in denial.
Mecca makes perfect sense if you’re thinking from a Persian perspective. They obviously wanted to choose a location without prior history and from the traditions the abbasids thought that the Arabs were desert barbarians so it made a greater story that Muhammad would come from there. I don’t think Petra has much of anything to do with Muhammad, as much as it has to do with arab identity. The most important thing in Islam is tawheed, (unification of Arab identity), including the Arab Christians, Jews, Zoroastrians, Manichaeans, pagans, etc. surrendering under the banner of the caliphate to rule under allah’s law. Petra was a Mecca for the Arabs which is why the rulers saw it as a place to create a relatable narrative under. Which is also why they wouldn’t have much problem moving it, because they were not Arabs theirselves.
Jay is Fascinating, enthusiastic, passionate, more and more confident about the myth of Muhammad, Mecca and the hollee koran. I remember when the apostles were persecuted after they performed a miracle. Their adversaries were upset seeing the ASSURANCE in them. They testified that the apostles had been with JESUS
Point 5 makes it - Yes there was a religious traditon BUT no islamic one - The santuary or Goddess Allat in Ta'if. After Petra was knocked out it made sense to bring the Black stone there BUT you can't make a temple or shrine of husband on the same place. They had to find a place nobody had a claim on.
Referencing the Lawrence of Arabia film, water rights were held by force of arms and no person, not of the tribe may drink from a guarded well even in dire need. That could be how the claim was solidified, in digging the well, even if it were a paltry water source; it was an 'unclaimed' location.
@@gilbertjones9157 Maybe it belonged already to Al-Hajjaj ibn Yusuf, that General you killed Abd Allah ibn al-Zubayr and with him thousands in Mecca (Petra) I think it was Al Hajjaj who took the Black stone and brought into his hometown Ta'if next to today Mecca.
I have another follow up question to the Al Andalus video a few weeks ago. If Petra was the original kibla focal point, why did the surviving Umayyad dynasty in Al Andalus never reference it? I am not aware of a purge of documents that would specifically change that reference either in Abbasid or Umayyad history. The Abbasids never had a strict centralized control over their empire so even if they tried to purge documents, it wouldn’t have been that effective and it wouldn’t make sense for the Umayyads to do so since they saw the Abbasids as usurpers. This animosity continued for centuries to the point Abd al Rahman III actually declared himself Caliph.
A quick reply. How do you know the Umayyads didn't reference Petra, since we have no documentation from that earlier era, at least up to 749 AD? Except one, the Qiblas, which were from that era, and are all facing Petra until 706 AD.
@@pfanderfilms The Crux of my question is the fact the Umayyads continued until the 11th century in Al Andalus and Abd al Rahman had his family murdered by the Abbasids so there was no love lost there if the Abbasids changed the kibla direction; he surely would have pressed a claim for legitimacy reasons or at the very least made reference to it. So if the Abbasids were the main drivers of Mecca, why do Umayyad records record Jerusalem as the original and not Petra? Also if Mecca became the main center of worship during the rebellion of Al Zubayr because of the movement of the black stone to there from up north, wouldn’t the Umayyads led by Abd al Malik be the ones to champion Mecca instead of the Abbasids? I ask because even though Zubayr moved it, he was defeated so that Umayyad victory could still be used as a source of legitimacy showing God punished Zubayr and gave them prestige. Could the changing of the Kaaba instead of being an Abbasid power grab instead be pushed back a few generations and actually be an Umayyad power grab against the Rashidun Caliphs? We already know Uthman burnt korans and that the movement of the kibla happened during that time so perhaps the Umayyads were the actual revisionists?
Wasn't there a location somewhere around Petra that had the name Makkah, or something along that line. I thought you mentioned that in one of the earlier videos. Could that be the reason when the black stone ended up where it did and named that location after Mecca or Mahhah. Whoever traveled south with the black stone, may heve gotton into sand storms and could travel no further. They got stuck. The final destination may initially have been much farther south. Who knows.
Authentic book recommendations:- 1.Translation of the Holy Qur'an by Abdul haleem or Clear Qur'an by Musthafa Khattab 2.The Sealed Nectar - Biography of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH). 3.The Divine Reality by Hamza Tzortzis 4.God and Logic in Islam by John Walbridge 5.Islam and secularism by Sayyid Muhammad Naquib Al- Attas 6.The History of the Qur'anic Text: From Revelation to Compilation : a Comparative Study with the Old and New Testaments by Muhammad Mustafa Azmi 7.Discovering the Quran by Neil Robinson 8.Structure and Quranic interpretation by Raymond Farrin 9.Misquoting Muhammad by Jonathan A. C Brown 10.Purification of the heart by Hamza Yusuf 11.Inner dimensions of the prayer by Ibn Qayyim al jawziyya 12.Reclaim your heart by Yasmin mogahed 13.Women and the transmission of religious knowledge in Islam by Professor Asma sayeed 14.Sexual ethics and Islam by Kecia Ali 15.The text of the new testament its transmission, corruption and restoration by Bruce metzger, Bart ehrman 16. The New Testament A Historical Introduction to the Early Christian Writings by Bart D. Ehrman 17. Did the First Christians Worship Jesus by James D.G Dunn 18. Early Christian Creeds by J. N. D. Kelly 19. The Evidence for Jesus by James D. G. Dunn 20. Jesus Was Not a Trinitarian by Anthony Buzzard
Dear Brothren. I am sorry : All those 5 points ARE the reason why it was chosen. Abdallāh ibn az-Zubair chose it after the destruction of Petra were he had to flee and took the Black stone with him. Nobody had a claim on that place so it could be taken. If there were trade route then the only tiny one to he fisher village of Jeddah, were people who fled from the Petra might arrived by boats. It's easier to FAKE a history that way.
Wonderful Dr jay. I would like to request you, could you please translate your information in Urdu/hindi. Because Pakistani & indian Christani's & muslims should know this. I will be very thankful to you. God bless you. 🙏😇
People should do their part and do these translations. Dr. Jay and the rest of people who are doing great work are already putting in their effort. We should not expect them to do everything for everyone. Others should join in and do their bit as needed.
My beautiful & very smart GP is Pakistani. She speaks English & of course Urdu. So sad to listen to her sharing how she finally managed to get her husband's permission to do her Haj pilgrimage. She is dressed in her Islamic attire. She is very smart & her husband works for Amazon, another smart human being. Yet God's truth eludes them. Do we have the courage to talk to them about the only truth & only way ie Jesus? Will my GP throw me out of her room? Giving her a translation of Dr. Jay's explanation, can boomerang. So sad that millions follow this religion without wanting to know & refusing to know the truth. 😩😭
Forgive my utter ignorance on the subject, but how could Ibn Zubayr return to Mecca (his home) if Mecca either didn't exist or was a "backwater"? Thank you
a little bit off topic: since Jan. 2021 INARAH (Institute for research on early islamic history, Saarbrücken germany) has a youtube channel. Only 2 videos yet (Discovery of Sana'a Manuscripts with Dr. Gerd Puin) but I'm hoping for more content.
Mecca is chosen because there was no better place to hide the tresor. Zubayr was so wise, he died but defeated Ummeyads by so doing. They could not find the relic to honor and justify their temple at Jerusalem.
Academic books on Islamic history:- 1.The Preaching of Islam by Thomas Walker Arnold 2.The Hidden Debt to Islamic Civilisation by S.E. Al-Djazair 3.The Formation of Islam Religion and Society in the Near East, 600-1800 by Jonathan P. Berkey 4.The Matter of Araby in Medieval England by Dorothee Metlitzki 5.The Enterprise of Science in Islam: New Perspectives published by Cambridge: MIT Press 6. Science Among the Ottomans: The Cultural Creation and Exchange of Knowledge by Miri Shefer-Mossensohn 7.The Jews of Islam by Bernard Lewis Mark R. Conen 8.Jewish Life Under Islam Jerusalem in the Sixteenth Century by Amnon cohen 9. Science in Medieval Islam by Howard R. Turner 10.The Moriscos of Spain by Henry Charles Lea 11.A history of inquisition of spain by Henry Charles Lea 12.The Martyrs of cordoba by Jessica A. Coope 13.The history of the ottoman empire Osman's Dream by Caroline Finkel 14. Sephardic and mizrahi jewry edited by Zion Zuhar 15. The ornament of the world by Maria Rosa Menocal 16. Islam and the west by Norman Daniel 17. Britain and the Islamic World, 1558-1713 by Gerald Maclean 18. The influence of Islam on medieval europe by W.Montgomery Watt 19.Minorities in the Ottoman Empire, edited by Molly Greene 20.An Economic and Social History of the Ottoman Empire by Donald Quataert and Halil İnalcık 21.Slavery and Islam by Jonathan A.C. Brown 22.Salah ad-Deen al-Ayubi by Dr Ali.M sallabi 23.On Schacht's Origins of Muhammadan Jurisprudence by Muhammad Mustafa Azmi
@@ashifhassan1148 HELLO - NONE OF THEM believe that theory of Dan gibson...and many Muslim and Orientalists like Prof King and Jewish History Prof's believe Mecca is where it is. PROOF th-cam.com/video/Ia_9MB6U6U4/w-d-xo.html
I talk with muslims on a regular basis, and it seems to me just as Jay says , they know VERY little about their own history. They just come out with typical one- liners. Even the ones that put themselves supposedly in more knowledgeable positions don't know much either. Thank you for making these videos. I love muslims , they are our neighbours ...we need to tell them the truth in love. Every blessing, Love, Pete
@@aaaabraham837 Hello AAA ( Is that Abraham's prophecy of a Trinity ? ) Just my little joke 😊 No offence intended More seriously.... Christians believe ONE GOD Every blessing in the name of Jesus. Love, Pete
@@peteunsworth3158 Respect given to you for your age and experience...so can you please answer my question, Xtians believe in a Triune god - a Triune god is not ONE GOD as they all say.
@Jesus is Life If that is the case Jesus without a father chromosome, then Jesus is supposed to be female but we Muslims believe in the miraculous conception of Jesus born as a HUMAN as God cannot come through a vagina.
Many of my Muslim friends read the Quran & Hadiths, but they don't understand what they read. It's all about reciting. Other than that they pray & talk Islam endlessly.
People from any historic city would remember and refute any false narritive about it. That is why Mecca was used for the Arabised narrative: it was the perfect empty canvas to paint it on!
@PfanderFilms If you think of the Arabia deserta as an island, it seems to me, we have to consider the possibility that the Abbasid leadership may have wanted to kill the religion by moving it as far away as possible to a forbidding location(Mecca).... prohibitive for pple to reach?
I like your idea. The Abbasids did not like the Umayyads. Persians at the top of the political heap needed the Arab herds to enforce their political will ended up going along with them in producing this religion. Now this might be the reason for the Sunni Shia split as generally it is the Arabs that are Sunni and Persians are the Shia. Of note, the Shia hold sway in the area of Iraq where the hole historic narrative started in the land between the two rivers. Another area for research.
@mysotiras5 Isn't that the pattern in history? Las Vegas(Mob), Area 51(US Army), Cayman Islands(Banks), Siberia(Soviet prisons), Diego Garcia(US Airforce), Balearic Islands(Arab, Phoenician pirates), Sahara desert(Atom bomb testing)
My thought all along was that the masterminds who framed this chose the most obscure place so that no one would have any solid information on it. They never imagined a world where anyone would have the ability to find out that it was an absolute fantasy.
Great 'myth-busting' talk. Thanks Jay. I do wonder if it should have been named 'New Mecca' cf New York , New Hampshire and similarly named places by immigrants or mass of people moved due to wars/famine. Blackstone spirituality is confirmed in The Study Quran (2017) - 'A covenant with God' via Petra/Mecca (?). There is a Dutch colonial Muslim tradition/folklore (not factual) that Adam landed in Ceylon and Eve landed in India. And thus the Adam's Bridge between Sri Lanka and India. A study of the relevant Hadiths and a commentary should be useful to understand the complexities/mysteries of Islam. A lot of interesting learning is in progress in 2021. Robert Spencer's book is to be published in July 2021.
According to an ancient legend, the aztecs left their homeland Aztlan and went southwards looking for a sort of promised land, their god Huitzilopochtli revealed them the place would be in a swampy area where they would see a signal: an eagle devouring a snake in a cactus placed above a rock. According to the legend they indeed saw the mentioned signal and there they built their capital Tenochtitlan in 1345. I think the abbasids used the same shamanic means to find the place to build Mecca, otherwise it`s no sense. In an spiritual sense, the demons/jinns when they depart from his host they look for dry places: "When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none." Matthew 12:43 I can´t imagine a dryer place than Mecca. On the other hand Mecca is placed exactly 666 nautical miles from Jerusalem, you can check this in the internet and it's 100% acurate. By the way, Satan tempted Jesus in the Desert
One nautical mile is the circunference of the earth divided by 360, there were 360 idols in Mecca, one for each day of the year. The ancient calendar had 360 days. Magical geometry and astronomy? maybe
@@Cruithne68 That would mean a very messy deck aboard a ship that sacrificed to the corresponding deity per day traveled. Need a scorecard to know who's up. Or who's on first.
If you want to set up a religeous power centre to unite your empire you might consider a location with no other advantages. Pick a place with economic or military advantages then you create another, rival, power centre.
Sorry if this question has been answered before, but does mecca, as a word, mean something in Arabic? I've been trying to answer your question for myself, and my question seems relevant, at least until it isn't.
You never did explain why Mecca. Did they just get tired of carting that rock south and figured heck, this is a good as place as any? Did their cart break a wheel and they couldn't go further? Would there have been too much conflict if it was taken to any inhabited area so they picked an out of the way place with few people to complicate things?
@Terry Jd So you are saying that Mecca was an inhabited place pre-Islam, and a pilgrimage place, but just not a major one that would have shown up on the maps of a sparsely-populated territory that no one was that interested in? That the earliest muslims picked it because it had a history of pilgrimage, just not a major one?
Why was the Black Stone taken to Mecca? Does it make more sense to take a religious object to remote place than a populous place? Because it is easy to keep followers away from outside ideas and doubts.
100% in agreements with you Jay, they destroyed the black stone their only a few pebbles of it left. The Stone has suffered repeated desecrations and damage over the course of time. It is said to have been struck and smashed to pieces by a stone fired from a catapult during the Umayyad Caliphate's siege of Mecca in 683. The fragments were re-joined by Abd Allah ibn al-Zubayr using a silver ligament which looks like a woman private part, so how can they still say Allah presence is in the stone if its smashed to pieces, if god presence left Petra due to the earthquake then I'm confidant a smashed up rock would destroy his presence also, Allah failed to protect Muhammad, the Blackrock that was a pagan rock and he failed to protect the preservation of the Quran, in baseball we call that 3 strikes you are out, Peace and love my dear brother, many of blessings...
@@canonjean-mignon4985 Why don’t they use white wax when they “repair” it every 3 months? It’s rock fragments inside of a wax ball. It’s no secret either, you can find videos of the process
Perhaps they thought a unknown village would be the way to go because they took inspiration from Nazareth? The rest of the story doesn't really back up the kind of world view where humility and vulnerability is where one finds God though, so I doubt it was well thought through.
In the name of Lord ,,,,,,,, We have come to proclaim a great witness to all the people of the world. Listen to the voice of the Lord and believe in recovering from this great tribulation. Those seven verses are the pure of the Lord who descended from heaven in these last days. 🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹 ( Tamil to english) 1.கூட்டாக நாம் யாரிடமும் பேசுவதில்லை நாம் நாடியவரை தவிர ! 1. Everyone affectionately ! other than one related ones ! 2.நீர் சொப்பனத்தில் கண்டவர் யாரென்று நாம் அறிவிக்கட்டுமா? 2. Shall, I reveal the name of the person you saw in your Dreams? 🌷 3.உலகத்தின் அருட்கொடையை சொப்பனத்தில் கண்ட பாக்யவானே! நீர் யாரென்று நாம் அறிவிக்கட்டுமா? 3.Fortune king, Who saw the mercy of world endownment in your dreams, Shall I announce Who you? Are to all?? 🌻 4.மானிடமகனே! உமது பணி வெகுவிரைவில் துவங்க உள்ளது அஞ்சாதீர் !🌹 4.Dont Panic ! Son of man! Your work of mercy and grace is going to begin soon.🌹 5.இந்நூலை நாமே வெளியிடுவோம். 🌹 5. We will publish this book ourselves. 6.உம்மை இழிவடைந்தவர்களில் ஒருவராக நாம் ஆக்கமாட்டோம். 6. (Will Never) We dont make you as the Person of Disgrade !!🌼 7__________________________ 7 .--------------------------------------- Let us proclaim this seventh verse to all the tribes of the earth (if the Lord wills) to bear witness to the truth of a people chosen by the Lord. Guys! There is a living connection between those 7 verses and the scripture you have. Ignoring these 7 verses will make you the first human being to lie to the scripture you have. Because the Lord says in the Old Testament Zechariah 3: 9. JPS Tanakh 1917 For behold the stone that I have laid before Joshua; upon one stone are seven facets; behold, I will engrave the graving thereof, saith the LORD of hosts: And I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day. O! People of the book,,,, Where is the verse engrave by the Lord with 7 bands on this stone which was foretold to the Israelites ??? The Lord reminds you of this again in the New Testament. "Seven thunder was heard, and when I began to write it I was told not to write down what the seven thunder said". (10: 4) revolution. Your scripture is not complete because those 7 verses are hidden. The Christian world knows this! Because among those who have divided the great scriptures into various pieces. More deadly plague than the disease that has now come Coming in 2022. It will spread from the two wild dogs that died on the rock ... Warning !!! Remember that it is not my intention to spread fear and panic. This is to protect you from the severe punishment of the Lord to come, and so that no one may perish without knowing it (true dharma). I announce. For Attention ! People of the books,, Believe in those 7 verses that were sent down to this stone in the last days. I truly say that you have the immense reward of the Lord. Blessed by the hand of the one Lord who descended from heaven,,, This is from,,,,,, Son of Man.
A Center of Religious Activity without ancient historical and archaeological evidence prior to the 8th century is highly dubious to be considered authentic. So Mecca is just one of those creative fantastical story.
My favourite islamic question is how did Mecca begin an grow as the world's first city with no fresh water for hundreds of miles I am still waiting for a answer
it may have been a green-landscape once upon a time ie at the beginning,mayb. jay's point 4 on trade up west coast.little boats could have ferried west trade over to east coast.
i say wat I say bcoz I think there may be some truth too Mecca box in ksa as in having an origin at prophet muhammads time. one being,that inner Kaaba has floor markings were Muhammad stood. second point,India may have ties too shrine at Mecca Kaaba back in 570AD. don't ask me tho,Google research it.
they are expert in living in a desert in hundred years so i think they know what to do to living in desert, choose the direction, looking for oasis etc etc
yeh,but I don't think the Hebrew speakers/jewish have knowledge of this prey/pray.and they will know better than others coz they are identifyable family to Avraham.
@Forgiving Fragrance .i think the pray of presidence of Abraham is the mentioning of bible saying were Jesus saith(John told) ,Abraham rejoyest at seeing his day.👈 i don't think you will get a better answered pray than that! keep fingers crossed 🤔
1:00 There was no "cool" choice. It has been made in a "civil" war period. It is Zubayr who have decreed that he was holding the "place of the Prophet" to rally Arabs vs Abd al Malik. This one has defeated him. Zubayr was the creator of Mecca and the Kaba" for political reason, nothing else. Abd al Malik has recovered what his rival had done.
Zubayr was born in Medina but after losing the battle on Petra maybe he had no real power base there. And the bring the black stone to close to the Allat's temple in Ta'if makes more sense. OR it was Al-Hajjaj ibn Yusuf the General who killed Zubayr and destroyed the Kaaba and had broken the Black stone by catapult. His birth town was Ta'if
@@maxschon7709 Zubayr was Iraqi. Iraq was under control of Damascus since Muawiya. That is why Zubayr was revolting vs Abd al Malik. Yathrib in the peninsula is irrelevant here, it was a swamp. Holding the "place of the Prophet" that Zubayr had decreeded having found was a very threat to Malik power because this story of a "prophet" that nobody knew in Damascus (nothing about islam/prophet/Mecca/Medina, Kaba before 692 in Syria-Palestine only some texts) could rally many people. That is why Malik was obliged to go to the "place of the Prophet" that Zubayr had invented :"Mecca". It could not be possible that a rival hold what could rally all the Iraqi vs Damascus.
I think, the writer of SIN had a positive reason in chosing the city of Mecca as the center of the story (better say 'the myth') he (or she) invented. At full knowledge that the story was a pure myth, it is reasonable that he did not choose any well known international cities or places with which to begin, otherwise it would have been decimated by the populace almost immediately after its launching, let alone propagating worldwide, as the later could go there and checked for the veracity of it.
what was the reason 4 building buildings facing petra b4 727? Why/who was trying 2 make a whole new narrative from petra? was it a religion different from islam, which malik adopted, cr8ted mecca and the start of holeybook.
There would have been a natural aquifer in Mecca ...and it’s possible that Ibn Zubyr placed the stone there after change of kibLa...it may have had a small worship place for the locals at the time ?
I think Mecca was chosen after Petra because it was close to Ta'if which was the city of Allat the female goddess and wife of Allah/Dushera. After the destruction of the Kaaba in Petra which might been seen by some that Allah could not protect his own house and new place was needed. And such a place had to be "free" no claims on it, no history, no people. That iv the only way to claim there had been an former worshipping to it if nobody was there.
Slightly off, the destruction was a historical omen that the god of the temple had already left. For the Hebrews it happened twice and Christians once at Constantinople. Egyptians had the plagues strike their priests and temples and the Phillistens had Samson. I am sure examples can be found in India or Indochina, like Ankar Wat or the Mayan Cities.
@@maxschon7709 correction noted and will apply. It would be helpful to know source used and dates internal to it and accepted dating applied to sourced material.
If Mecca did not exist why did ibn Zubar take the black stone there? Why would he not take the black stone to some locality that existed. How did ibn Zubair survive if he took the black stone to an area where nothing was established?
Mecca did not exist the way the traditions tell us. Just like Petra, Mecca was a pagan sanctuary, there were many Kabas in Arabia, Zubair simply chose Mecca to get as far away from Abdul Malik as he could, but when Muhammad was introduced and the Quran was introduced in the north by Abdul Malik in order to compete with Byzantine Christians then everything had to be changed to Mecca by the Abbasids because that is where Zubair took the stone, if he had not done that then everything about Islam would be centered around Petra not Mecca. The Abbasids had to invent the origins of Islam and construct the life of Muhammad in the 9th-10th centuries and mentioning Mecca only once in the Quran and describing it like they had never been there, but describing Petra like they had been there, it was all political
The only religious center in that area was on the west side Ethiopia, and that was the Coptic Church the Askum empire and that was during the 3rd or 4th century. If there was any record of Mecca or the history of Islam the Ethiopians would have recorded it.
Nabetians were known as king of deserts, master of water management in desserts, worshipping black stone , Macca ( presently at Soudi Arabia) was having wast chunk of lands owned by Nabetians. The best place to hide and save. Nabetians from attackers.petra capital of Nabetians was destroyed by Earthquake, Macca was most suitable for making new residing place to Nabetians. In last quarter of 7th century Nabetians shifted to Macca from Petra.
Listening to all the logic arguments. Consider the newˋ Mecca to be the wonder God created since it is not affected by earthquakes… the wonder is that this city still exist in spite the lack of water
The location of Mecca made it easier to defend the black rock probably, and the location also made it easier to evaquate the black rock if an attack were comming. They get warnings early. The defence/guarding of the rock had very high priority. Then and now. Why is not the defence of the holy black rock the 6th reason?
I can not recall the source or the full story but Mecca was attacked some time in the 900's and the leader of the attack asked Where are your birds to attack us? Referencing the Hoopa bird story in the Quran.
ahhahahah you are so funny ahhaha...btw is this a comedy?....by just reading the title already makes me want to laugh...congratulation for that hahahhaah
sir can you explain about zam2 water since when was it built when it was renovated, how strong is the pump, how did they get water before pump technology existed, where did the water source come from, and also the origin history of it where name zam2 came from, what its languange really is as Dan Gibson mention its came from Deuteronomy 2:20 because this is always used as evidence of the existence of the city of Mecca
Deuteronomy 2:20 refers to a former people whom the Jews called the Rephaim ("terrible ones", "mighty ones", "giants") and the Ammonites called the Zamzummites (the schemers or the schemed against). There is no reference in that verse to any well or any city, just a group of people , "great, many, and as tall as the Anakites" that the Ammonites had driven out. Seriously, there is NO way that any literate person could take this as evidence of Mecca.
So you have a black stone and you head South. Why pick Mecca then? I wonder if what happened was they looked for a potential port on the West Coast. And created Jidda. Even then why the place chosen for Mecca? Still need those answers.
@Forgiving Fragrance Try consulting Prophetess Google (Peace be upon HER) about "Kaaba flooded by sewage water" and check out the images... Don't forget to clothe your Laptop/i-Pad/Cellphone in a burqa/chador and hijab/niqab when consulting HER or you may get false results... The God of the Bible can have a son, the god of the quran cannot.
@Forgiving Fragrance Produce the evidence. Becca is not Mecca and Medina just means City and there are a lot of places across North Africa and the Mid East with the moniker City (Medina) several in Morocco.
@Forgiving Fragrance You need education on the Testaments. When He was arrested and at His trial; He use the words I am twice in each place = to Exodus account for Moses. No references - you read to find them, educate yourself.
I guess the selection of Macca is a result of agreement between Abassid and Umayyad Caliphs. They wanted this palce safe and not part of this two power.
The ancient name of the city of meca is BAKAH , the place where King David pilgrimage recorded on Psalms, untill nowadays tthis name BAKAH still used by locals to name their bussines ( hotels , shops etc )
@Jesus is Life Kabah in central BAKAH is valley sorounded by mountains Jabal NUR, Jabal Tsur, Jabal Rahmah, Jabal Qubais and Jabal Qurban BAKAH in Hebrew alfabet is written He Bet Kaf He ( H BKH) means weeping same as BAKAH in ARABIC means weeping from it story Ismael weeping thirsty and the angel made him the famous spring Zam Zam that exist untill nowadays Psalms 84:5-6 (ASV) Blessed is the man whose strength is in thee; In whose heart are the highways [to Zion]. Passing through THE VALLEY OF WEEPING they make it a place of SPRINGS ; Yea, the early rain covereth it with blessings. Do You think Nabatean Arabic move the Zam Zam SPRING from Petra to Mecca?
@@MrXucinxgaronx Pslam 84 is describing pilgrimage to 'Zion' i.e Jerusalem which in Davids day they worshipped God in the Tabernacle with the Ark of the covenant before the Temple was made by Solomon, so how on earth are you making the link to Mecca or the Kaaba from the Bible? your desperate ..there is no Mecca that begins to thrive as a city before the 8th century
@@frankjaeger9068 Zion means the Mountain / House of God match with the Kaaba, The only house of God At the David's time there is no House of God IN Jerusalem but Kaaba in Bakkah/Mecca
@Jesus is Life Mecca described in Quran VALLEY THAT HAS NO PLANT ('Ibrāhīm): 37 - O our Lord, verily I have placed a part of my descendants IN A VALLEY THAT HAS NO PLANTS NEAR YOUR HOUSE (BAITULLAH ) who are honored, O our Lord (such that it is) so that they offer prayers, then make the hearts of some humans inclined to them and give them sustenance from fruits, hopefully they will be grateful.
@Jesus is Life Your comments prove you know nothing about Mecca sorounded 5 mountains Jabal Tsur, Jabal Rahmah, Jabal Nur, Jabal Qurban and Jabal Qubais Every pilgrim from all over the world used to visit those mountains
Its almost like Mecca and Las Vegas are sisters cities
Lmmfao
😂😂😂😂
You are less likely to be sexually abused in Las Vegas
@@sleeexs What?
@@youngbizzy8205 You don't know?
And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
I agree. If it doesn't it will shackle ye.
In John 18:37, Jesus said, "... . To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice."
In Iran, I read a book when I was in high school. The book was written by an Iranian writer in Persian. In the book, the writer explains and provides evidence that Mecca was built to improve the Arab economy, improving the economy is the main purpose of Mecca. That is why all Muslim have a religious duty to go to Mecca to visit Allah. Later the Islamic killed that Iranian writer and stopped his book.
Wow so amazing
Whats the name of the book bro. Pls I will need it.
Can you please provide the Name of the book or the author? Any hint at all?
While Dr Jay's analysis are very plausable, yet delving deeper stems the question: Why n what caused Zubair to take the black stone to Mecca.
Was it only bcos it was his village ?? Or is there another more compelling reason...
Tkx for enlightening us !!
According to your 5 reasons, it is the perfect place to create a myth.
Yes, you right. Great somebody seev the same.
Islam plagiarized traditions from the Syriac script, the Bible, Arabia scrolls & Dead Sea scrolls. Islam failed on historical evidence
Bingo.
@Forgiving Fragrance Yes, they are...All three religions Islam, Christianity and Zoroastrian are Abrahamic religion,both Christanity and Islam are derived from Zoroastrian traditions...I am not belittling any religion...just providing the information ....
Dr Jay Pfander MD. you're awesome! I love you brother!
Do you know, from my place there are many ex-muslim TH-camrs because they are educated and they realized the truth that they were following just a tribal man and his God.
Followed a minor to her crib, the god was an afterthought
That's why ancient Egyptian and Roman were not expanding southward. It's a wasteland.
Persians not interested either.
Flordid: Not just a gorgeous place, but also a bastion of sanity in these insane times!
With respect, Dr. Jay, I believe you missed the one thing that Mecca had going for it in your closing remarks: it was good militarily. Exactly because it was in the middle of nowhere, it made for a good hidey-hole when they were moving the Ka'aba. They could make up a backstory narrative later, after surviving the Civil War.
Yes, good point. Others below have said similar things. Thanks!
I think it was Mel at Sneakers Corner who showed an 11th century map. The center of the map was at a point exactly due north of present day Mecca only on the current N. Iraq border. When Patricia Crone described the first written description of where Mecca was located, it corresponds to that point at the center of that map.
Mel does not interpret correctly the map in question - the place indicated corresponds to Petra, not any area in the North of Irak (meaning that the map confirms Gibson's theory about the place where Islam started) - it's astonishing that Mel makes such mistake because the error is pretty obvious...
@John Wick The description of Mecca in the Quran is incorrect.
@John Wick Awww you mad.
Petra is a nice place and it doesn't get flooded with sewage like the one down south.
I hope you get this comment, Jay. I have tried to say thanks a couple of times and they have disappeared (TH-cam bots doing their nefarious work I suppose). Anyway, thank you for your kind words and I do hope we get a chance to do coffee sometime. I think I could learn a lot from that. This last year, despite the grief of a nasty pandemic, has been one of my favourite because I have seen you and others turn history on its ear. Learning doesn't get cooler than that!
Thanks too for the particular categorization you used to simplify the issue. That was helpful. Finally, thanks for the answer which, as you said, I probably already knew or at least suspected (because I frequent Pfander Films.)
You are doing a great job. Greetings from Georgia, Caucasus ;)
Hay bro next door Armenia. How the things going?
Dear Mr. Smith, I'm afraid I have to disagree with you on one point. Mecca is not a poor choice. From a political point of view, the choice of this location is almost brilliant. If I were to choose a place to religiously legitimize my rule, I would choose a place with no history of its own, no population of its own. A place where I can give MY story and a people devoted to ME myself. Tabula rasa. A place with its own history and population would only be a nuisance. I would choose a place like Mecca.
It's seems you don't understand what he is saying, they are saying (Muslims) that mecca is the from the beginning and is the center of the world.
I can think of one very good reason to choose Mecca. It was a tabla rasa. If you want to build up a myth for the sake of a religion, you do not want abundant local evidence of anything else except what you are going to concoct. If there had been a lot of locals who had an investment in any kind of notable past, it would have been necessary to wipe the slate clean at Mecca before making up stories about it. The KIND of stories that would be inserted into and around Mecca were easily to be found in the geography, customs and even some religious ceremonies of Petra. Mecca was well away from prying eyes; very few in the north could assert that the new Mecca story was not true, for who had ever been there, or who had lived there for a long time? Who had beliefs from Mecca that ran contrary to the new mythology? By the time of the Abbasids, Mecca was not a military or political power that could resist or dispute the imposition of a myth. It was not an economic power, or any other kind of power. But because your new religion would be sending pilgrims that way, increasing property values, and supplying prestige to place of utter insignificance, the locals would mostly be right on board with the new religion, and the new Mecca Myth. All of this seems to me a very good reason to choose Mecca - the fact that it was a rather distant blank slate upon which to build and would offer no resistance. Plus, as you mention, the fact that the stone was already there. Surely a sign from Allah!
.
Jay you are a true blessing to JESUS. Keeping you tucked in my daily prayers 🕊
Jesus said he didn’t know the day or hour of his return though his Father did know it
but I thought there was only one person subsisting in two natures!?
he cannot have two minds, one that knew something and another that did not know something, unless we now want to make the absurd claim that mind and person are not correlated
so if Jesus was God, he did know everything and lied about not knowing the day of his return…but if Jesus lied then he cannot be God, for God cannot lie (Titus 1.2)
Jesus did not know everything because he wasn’t God
God made man in His image. Man has a body, a mind and a soul. Therefore, God has three parts. Though I have a body, a mind and a soul, I am indeed one. Just because Jesus CHOSE not to utilize his full power and full knowledge doesn't mean He didn't have the capacity to do so. At any given time Jesus could have used His power to strike down any single evil minded person, but He didn't and likewise He didn't use His ability to know the day or the hour. Jesus had the power to see the day and hour, but chose not to. He was God in the flesh, He said, "the Father and I are one". Jesus also was worshipped by many when He rode on a donkey, and He did not rebuke them for it. If He were not God, why would He allow people to worship Him? And other support for it I have from the scriptures, but usually people who reject the idea that Jesus was God refuse to accept it even if the scriptures say so . It's ok, everyone has the right to believe as they wish. God bless!
@Forgiving Fragrance when Jesus said that He was not saying He can do nothing at all, else He couldn't walk, talk or move. So you MUST read that in context, this is what was happening, the Jews were angry at Jesus because He healed a man on the Sabbath and they wanted to kill Him. Jesus was indicating that He does the will of His Father, not the natural will of a man. It is in the nature of a man to have certain tendencies, but Jesus(being fully man and fully God) did not follow the natural tendencies of the human flesh, He never sinned and never lied, He did the will of His Father. Therefore Jesus was not saying He could do nothing, obviously He had just HEALED A MAN, so it wouldn't make any sense if He had meant that He could do nothing at all. He was saying basically that He had done the will of God, not the human will of the flesh, He could do nothing but the will of the Father.
How is he? When he speaks falsely about things he doesn’t know
@@Abdullah-ri7ez please explain your comment, I don't understand it.
In my opinion it was put there, because no foreign power, not Rome, not Byzantium, not the Sassanids (Persia), not the Egyptians, could conquer it there.
More like those Empires would have no reason to bother with some Arabs running around in the desert! It wasn't until they(Arabs) started attacking everyone that the rest of the world even took serious notice of them.
@Reinhard Von müsel I'm not buying into anything. I'm not really concerned with where this wretched religion was spawned.
@Reinhard Von müsel they have been proven wrong over and over already. The whole narrative of Islam is a fabrication and cannot withstand even the slightest scrutiny
Jay, you're the BEST!!!
Saracens may suck at history but they are really good at conquering and enslaving
Yes they were extremely good at it. The Greeks (my ethnicity) still has an extreme paranoia about them.
@@Maria___28 the greeks never should’ve given up on Aphrodite and Artemis
6) Archaeological
There’s nothing in the ground.
Cover it up in concrete.
@Forgiving Fragrance It’s not a miracle. Why does the zam zam require man made plumbing? A miracle doesn’t require man’s help.
@Forgiving Fragrance If That well was a miracle, it wouldn’t NEED any help from man.
Great explanation.. continue to this job.. GBU regards from Indonesia
The idea of no RELIGIONS from Mecca had never occurred to me Dr. Jay. Every culture had religion. No religion, no culture!
It's seems you don't understand what he is saying.
The choice initially may have been by accident as the black stone was brought there. But maybe part of the answer is also that because the new Mecca had no history and no people, nobody was going to dispute this choice. Maybe it was convenient that Mecca had no history and no people, it keeps problems away. Of course, since Mo's biographers had never been to Mecca they didn't realize their errors but at the time it seemed convenient. Petra destroyed so no protest from there and Mecca happy because they were getting visitors. And as nobody lived there, it posed no danger to the new rulers or anybody else. So, after the initial accidental choice, everybody stuck to it out of convenience and only when people started studying the late sources critically, the discrepencies became clear. That would be my preferred explanation.
Well said. I agree completely!
The trade route.
So great to hear.
Now I understand what my father said 25 yesrs ago.
He took the Bible (he is not religious) and showed me the trade routes from Afrika to Arabia.
Better to locate to a spot that has no history then to a spot that has a history that would contradict the history that the creators of Islam concocted which any person living in an already inhabited area with know.
1) There was nobody there to contradict the narrative.
2) See 1).
3) See 1). Nobody to conquer, either.
4) See 1). There was no money interest to fight for, and money wasn't the reason for Mecca's foundation.
5) See 1). There was nobody else who cared about Mecca, no religion (not even pagan) that cared to fight for it.
Wow I didn't know all this!! We get it!!! Haha good work. And thanks. So good. Will use on my Abduls lol. God bless you.
(12:50) I disagree with the argument that the Red Sea is too shallow for boats to travel close to the Arabian peninsula. The depth in the middle of the Red Sea (red line) is 2km to 3km, the flanking areas (yellow lines) vary from 1,000m to 150m deep on both sides. Moreover, the largest boats of the time would only need a water depth of around 5m at peak low tide, which is easily achieved on both sides of the Red Sea. Look for the bathymetry picture in the paper: "Characterization of the northern Red Sea's oceanic features with remote sensing data and outputs from a global circulation model".
Thanks John. That's helpful. The greater problem would have been the provisions. There are just no water sources or vegetation on the Arabian side, while there was on the African side. That is why there are 5 well-known trading towns which have existed along the African coast since the 3rd century BC, all spaced about a day's sailing apart, and no equivalent on the Arabian side.
@@pfanderfilms another point is the Arabian penensular is a desert with no vegetation whereas the African coast has vegetation and hinterland of natural produce.
Dan Gibson dropped a bombshell when he basically said all the hadiths are written by the abassids none by the ummayids
He related the reign of the Abbasids to the first dating of the hadiths
Which makes me wonder if the censorship of collect saying and manuscripts in the earlier years led to the exclusion of Petra references specifically not thinking it would be so well scrutinized later.
@Forgiving Fragrance Give your answers first, clear your own house and then attack others.
@John Wick The usual pathetic ad hominems of abdools, because you have no solid counter-arguments.
@John Wick John, I actually bought Dan Gibsons book after watching his documentary "The Sacred City" and so I bought "Early Islamic Qiblas" to follow up on this. "You claim that all mosques face Petra without providing academic evidence" is either a lie on your part or willful ignorance on your part either way Dan Gibson research is approved by many scholars who helped with his research. However, on Pg. 113 in the book it reads "....Out of 60+ plus Mosques I have listed, 15 of the early mosques appear to have had a qibla directed towards Petra, while 9 point directly between Petra and Mecca and 6 African and Spanish mosques have a qibla that is generally parallel to a line drawn between Petra and Mecca. When these are placed on a timeline, we can clearly see that Petra was the original Qibla, before other Qiblas were introduced. Today only Mecca remains"... Dont spread lies about a man and his research when you havent even read his own book. Isnt that what Muslims say all the time to non-Muslims about the Quran and Mohammad? To not do what you're doing to Dan? Its a very interesting theory that seems to have some decent credibility to it.
@John Wick Name what you call "real scholars" and cite their work. Then your comments might hold some weights. Otherwise it is just a seriously triggered abdool in denial.
Brilliant work Mr.Jay Smith.
The Problem is .....not many Muslim know what is the meaning of Myth. ..
Some of them thought that Myth is a " female Moth."
Hahahahah...! I love the joke about those potato head abdul
Jay, 'What are they going to do?'
muslims, 'lie until we die'
Hahahaha Mmmm you are right.
Thank U for making Ur vids ad free
Well done. J. God. Bless
Love from 🇮🇳❤️
Mecca makes perfect sense if you’re thinking from a Persian perspective. They obviously wanted to choose a location without prior history and from the traditions the abbasids thought that the Arabs were desert barbarians so it made a greater story that Muhammad would come from there. I don’t think Petra has much of anything to do with Muhammad, as much as it has to do with arab identity. The most important thing in Islam is tawheed, (unification of Arab identity), including the Arab Christians, Jews, Zoroastrians, Manichaeans, pagans, etc. surrendering under the banner of the caliphate to rule under allah’s law. Petra was a Mecca for the Arabs which is why the rulers saw it as a place to create a relatable narrative under. Which is also why they wouldn’t have much problem moving it, because they were not Arabs theirselves.
Jay is Fascinating, enthusiastic, passionate, more and more confident about the myth of Muhammad, Mecca and the hollee koran.
I remember when the apostles were persecuted after they performed a miracle.
Their adversaries were upset seeing the
ASSURANCE in them.
They testified that the apostles had been with JESUS
Point 5 makes it - Yes there was a religious traditon BUT no islamic one - The santuary or Goddess Allat in Ta'if. After Petra was knocked out it made sense to bring the Black stone there BUT you can't make a temple or shrine of husband on the same place. They had to find a place nobody had a claim on.
Referencing the Lawrence of Arabia film, water rights were held by force of arms and no person, not of the tribe may drink from a guarded well even in dire need. That could be how the claim was solidified, in digging the well, even if it were a paltry water source; it was an 'unclaimed' location.
@@gilbertjones9157 Maybe it belonged already to Al-Hajjaj ibn Yusuf, that General you killed Abd Allah ibn al-Zubayr and with him thousands in Mecca (Petra) I think it was Al Hajjaj who took the Black stone and brought into his hometown Ta'if next to today Mecca.
@@maxschon7709 I am aged but less than a century and did not serve in the military.
I have another follow up question to the Al Andalus video a few weeks ago. If Petra was the original kibla focal point, why did the surviving Umayyad dynasty in Al Andalus never reference it? I am not aware of a purge of documents that would specifically change that reference either in Abbasid or Umayyad history.
The Abbasids never had a strict centralized control over their empire so even if they tried to purge documents, it wouldn’t have been that effective and it wouldn’t make sense for the Umayyads to do so since they saw the Abbasids as usurpers. This animosity continued for centuries to the point Abd al Rahman III actually declared himself Caliph.
A quick reply. How do you know the Umayyads didn't reference Petra, since we have no documentation from that earlier era, at least up to 749 AD? Except one, the Qiblas, which were from that era, and are all facing Petra until 706 AD.
What do you mean by 'If Petra was the original kibla focal point'
@@pfanderfilms the Umayyads ruled Spain until the 11th century
@@pfanderfilms The Crux of my question is the fact the Umayyads continued until the 11th century in Al Andalus and Abd al Rahman had his family murdered by the Abbasids so there was no love lost there if the Abbasids changed the kibla direction; he surely would have pressed a claim for legitimacy reasons or at the very least made reference to it.
So if the Abbasids were the main drivers of Mecca, why do Umayyad records record Jerusalem as the original and not Petra?
Also if Mecca became the main center of worship during the rebellion of Al Zubayr because of the movement of the black stone to there from up north, wouldn’t the Umayyads led by Abd al Malik be the ones to champion Mecca instead of the Abbasids?
I ask because even though Zubayr moved it, he was defeated so that Umayyad victory could still be used as a source of legitimacy showing God punished Zubayr and gave them prestige.
Could the changing of the Kaaba instead of being an Abbasid power grab instead be pushed back a few generations and actually be an Umayyad power grab against the Rashidun Caliphs? We already know Uthman burnt korans and that the movement of the kibla happened during that time so perhaps the Umayyads were the actual revisionists?
@@aetiussecularus8891 There is no historical evidence for the existence of the Rightly Guided Caliphs.
Dr. Jay.. You are awesome. A lesson to all who believe that their God only real. In the name of Jesus Christ all truth will be revealed soon.
Wasn't there a location somewhere around Petra that had the name Makkah, or something along that line. I thought you mentioned that in one of the earlier videos. Could that be the reason when the black stone ended up where it did and named that location after Mecca or Mahhah. Whoever traveled south with the black stone, may heve gotton into sand storms and could travel no further. They got stuck. The final destination may initially have been much farther south. Who knows.
Authentic book recommendations:-
1.Translation of the Holy Qur'an by Abdul haleem or Clear Qur'an by Musthafa Khattab
2.The Sealed Nectar - Biography of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH).
3.The Divine Reality by Hamza Tzortzis
4.God and Logic in Islam by John Walbridge
5.Islam and secularism by Sayyid Muhammad Naquib Al- Attas
6.The History of the Qur'anic Text: From Revelation to Compilation : a Comparative Study with the Old and New Testaments by Muhammad Mustafa Azmi
7.Discovering the Quran by Neil Robinson
8.Structure and Quranic interpretation by Raymond Farrin
9.Misquoting Muhammad by Jonathan A. C Brown
10.Purification of the heart by Hamza Yusuf
11.Inner dimensions of the prayer by Ibn Qayyim al jawziyya
12.Reclaim your heart by Yasmin mogahed
13.Women and the transmission of religious knowledge in Islam by Professor Asma sayeed
14.Sexual ethics and Islam by Kecia Ali
15.The text of the new testament its transmission, corruption and restoration by Bruce metzger, Bart ehrman
16. The New Testament A Historical Introduction to the Early Christian Writings by Bart D. Ehrman
17. Did the First Christians Worship Jesus by James D.G Dunn
18. Early Christian Creeds by J. N. D. Kelly
19. The Evidence for Jesus by James D. G. Dunn
20. Jesus Was Not a Trinitarian by Anthony Buzzard
Dear Brothren. I am sorry : All those 5 points ARE the reason why it was chosen. Abdallāh ibn az-Zubair chose it after the destruction of Petra were he had to flee and took the Black stone with him. Nobody had a claim on that place so it could be taken. If there were trade route then the only tiny one to he fisher village of Jeddah, were people who fled from the Petra might arrived by boats. It's easier to FAKE a history that way.
And if Jeddah didn'T exist it makes even more sense because really nobody would had a claim on it.
Wonderful Dr jay.
I would like to request you, could you please translate your information in Urdu/hindi. Because Pakistani & indian Christani's & muslims should know this. I will be very thankful to you. God bless you. 🙏😇
Please consider doing that yourself, Junaid.
People should do their part and do these translations. Dr. Jay and the rest of people who are doing great work are already putting in their effort. We should not expect them to do everything for everyone. Others should join in and do their bit as needed.
My beautiful & very smart GP is Pakistani. She speaks English & of course Urdu. So sad to listen to her sharing how she finally managed to get her husband's permission to do her Haj pilgrimage. She is dressed in her Islamic attire. She is very smart & her husband works for Amazon, another smart human being. Yet God's truth eludes them. Do we have the courage to talk to them about the only truth & only way ie Jesus? Will my GP throw me out of her room? Giving her a translation of Dr. Jay's explanation, can boomerang. So sad that millions follow this religion without wanting to know & refusing to know the truth. 😩😭
I want to do that but i don't have best translation skills. 😇
@@junaidejaz4178 Start now, and by the end, you'll have GREAT translation skills!
Why on earth everytime i read their refutation regarding this matter i always felt like im reading an essay written by 6 years old. 😔
Forgive my utter ignorance on the subject, but how could Ibn Zubayr return to Mecca (his home) if Mecca either didn't exist or was a "backwater"? Thank you
Thank you for exposing lies and revealing truth! GBU
a little bit off topic:
since Jan. 2021 INARAH (Institute for research on early islamic history, Saarbrücken germany) has a youtube channel.
Only 2 videos yet (Discovery of Sana'a Manuscripts with Dr. Gerd Puin) but I'm hoping for more content.
Mecca is chosen because there was no better place to hide the tresor.
Zubayr was so wise, he died but defeated Ummeyads by so doing. They could not find the relic to honor and justify their temple at Jerusalem.
Ibn Zubair HAD TO HIDE to keep that darned stone and why not choose some place desolate where no one would suspect.
Good idea.
Academic books on Islamic history:-
1.The Preaching of Islam by Thomas Walker
Arnold
2.The Hidden Debt to Islamic Civilisation by S.E. Al-Djazair
3.The Formation of Islam Religion and Society in the Near East, 600-1800 by Jonathan P. Berkey
4.The Matter of Araby in Medieval England by Dorothee Metlitzki
5.The Enterprise of Science in Islam: New Perspectives published by Cambridge: MIT Press
6. Science Among the Ottomans: The Cultural Creation and Exchange of Knowledge by Miri Shefer-Mossensohn
7.The Jews of Islam by Bernard Lewis Mark R. Conen
8.Jewish Life Under Islam Jerusalem in the Sixteenth Century by Amnon cohen
9. Science in Medieval Islam by Howard R. Turner
10.The Moriscos of Spain by Henry Charles Lea
11.A history of inquisition of spain by Henry Charles Lea
12.The Martyrs of cordoba by Jessica A. Coope
13.The history of the ottoman empire Osman's Dream by Caroline Finkel
14. Sephardic and mizrahi jewry edited by Zion Zuhar
15. The ornament of the world by Maria Rosa Menocal
16. Islam and the west by Norman Daniel
17. Britain and the Islamic World, 1558-1713 by Gerald Maclean
18. The influence of Islam on medieval europe by W.Montgomery Watt
19.Minorities in the Ottoman Empire, edited by Molly Greene
20.An Economic and Social History of the Ottoman Empire by Donald Quataert and Halil İnalcık
21.Slavery and Islam by Jonathan A.C. Brown
22.Salah ad-Deen al-Ayubi by Dr Ali.M sallabi
23.On Schacht's Origins of Muhammadan Jurisprudence by Muhammad Mustafa Azmi
And all these orientalists believe the Mecca is in Petra???..ha ha ha
@@aaaabraham837
Not all of them. Only a fringe group.
@@ashifhassan1148
HELLO - NONE OF THEM believe that theory of Dan gibson...and many Muslim and Orientalists like Prof King and Jewish History Prof's believe Mecca is where it is.
PROOF
th-cam.com/video/Ia_9MB6U6U4/w-d-xo.html
Good!!! Dr. Jay, Let us bring back our Brothers and Sisters to Jesus.
where you gonna bring your brothers and sister to you mean to polytheism
God bless you Jay Smit.
I talk with muslims on a regular basis, and it seems to me just as Jay says , they know VERY little about their own history. They just come out with typical one- liners. Even the ones that put themselves supposedly in more knowledgeable positions don't know much either.
Thank you for making these videos.
I love muslims , they are our neighbours ...we need to tell them the truth in love.
Every blessing,
Love,
Pete
Do you really think that God would copy a pagan way of belief ans salvation after 1000's of years of pure monotheism by the prophets?
@@aaaabraham837
Hello AAA ( Is that Abraham's prophecy of a Trinity ? )
Just my little joke 😊
No offence intended
More seriously....
Christians believe ONE GOD
Every blessing in the name of Jesus.
Love,
Pete
@@peteunsworth3158
Respect given to you for your age and experience...so can you please answer my question,
Xtians believe in a Triune god - a Triune god is not ONE GOD as they all say.
@Jesus is Life
If that is the case Jesus without a father chromosome, then Jesus is supposed to be female but we Muslims believe in the miraculous conception of Jesus born as a HUMAN as God cannot come through a vagina.
Many of my Muslim friends read the Quran & Hadiths, but they don't understand what they read. It's all about reciting. Other than that they pray & talk Islam endlessly.
People from any historic city would remember and refute any false narritive about it.
That is why Mecca was used for the Arabised narrative: it was the perfect empty canvas to paint it on!
@PfanderFilms If you think of the Arabia deserta as an island, it seems to me, we have to consider the possibility that the Abbasid leadership may have wanted to kill the religion by moving it as far away as possible to a forbidding location(Mecca).... prohibitive for pple to reach?
I like your idea. The Abbasids did not like the Umayyads. Persians at the top of the political heap needed the Arab herds to enforce their political will ended up going along with them in producing this religion. Now this might be the reason for the Sunni Shia split as generally it is the Arabs that are Sunni and Persians are the Shia. Of note, the Shia hold sway in the area of Iraq where the hole historic narrative started in the land between the two rivers. Another area for research.
@mysotiras5 Isn't that the pattern in history? Las Vegas(Mob), Area 51(US Army), Cayman Islands(Banks), Siberia(Soviet prisons), Diego Garcia(US Airforce), Balearic Islands(Arab, Phoenician pirates), Sahara desert(Atom bomb testing)
My thought all along was that the masterminds who framed this chose the most obscure place so that no one would have any solid information on it. They never imagined a world where anyone would have the ability to find out that it was an absolute fantasy.
Wow what an explanation.
Are you that gullible to believe a habitual Liar and Deceiver?
Isnt there zamzam fountain there?
Great 'myth-busting' talk. Thanks Jay. I do wonder if it should have been named 'New Mecca' cf New York , New Hampshire and similarly named places by immigrants or mass of people moved due to wars/famine. Blackstone spirituality is confirmed in The Study Quran (2017) - 'A covenant with God' via Petra/Mecca (?). There is a Dutch colonial Muslim tradition/folklore (not factual) that Adam landed in Ceylon and Eve landed in India. And thus the Adam's Bridge between Sri Lanka and India. A study of the relevant Hadiths and a commentary should be useful to understand the complexities/mysteries of Islam. A lot of interesting learning is in progress in 2021. Robert Spencer's book is to be published in July 2021.
According to an ancient legend, the aztecs left their homeland Aztlan and went southwards looking for a sort of promised land, their god Huitzilopochtli revealed them the place would be in a swampy area where they would see a signal: an eagle devouring a snake in a cactus placed above a rock. According to the legend they indeed saw the mentioned signal and there they built their capital Tenochtitlan in 1345. I think the abbasids used the same shamanic means to find the place to build Mecca, otherwise it`s no sense.
In an spiritual sense, the demons/jinns when they depart from his host they look for dry places: "When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none." Matthew 12:43 I can´t imagine a dryer place than Mecca. On the other hand Mecca is placed exactly 666 nautical miles from Jerusalem, you can check this in the internet and it's 100% acurate. By the way, Satan tempted Jesus in the Desert
Nautical miles is a pretty arbitrary measurement unit, but that's still a super interesting fact.
Thank you for sharing.
One nautical mile is the circunference of the earth divided by 360, there were 360 idols in Mecca, one for each day of the year. The ancient calendar had 360 days. Magical geometry and astronomy? maybe
@@Cruithne68 That is, again, incredibly interesting.
I will keep it in mind, in case it means something.
@@Cruithne68 That would mean a very messy deck aboard a ship that sacrificed to the corresponding deity per day traveled. Need a scorecard to know who's up. Or who's on first.
For you to rewrite history, you need a blank page. And mecca was abbasid dynasty's blank page.
If you want to set up a religeous power centre to unite your empire you might consider a location with no other advantages. Pick a place with economic or military advantages then you create another, rival, power centre.
Sorry if this question has been answered before, but does mecca, as a word, mean something in Arabic? I've been trying to answer your question for myself, and my question seems relevant, at least until it isn't.
You never did explain why Mecca. Did they just get tired of carting that rock south and figured heck, this is a good as place as any? Did their cart break a wheel and they couldn't go further? Would there have been too much conflict if it was taken to any inhabited area so they picked an out of the way place with few people to complicate things?
@Terry Jd So you are saying that Mecca was an inhabited place pre-Islam, and a pilgrimage place, but just not a major one that would have shown up on the maps of a sparsely-populated territory that no one was that interested in? That the earliest muslims picked it because it had a history of pilgrimage, just not a major one?
Why was the Black Stone taken to Mecca?
Does it make more sense to take a religious object to remote place than a populous place?
Because it is easy to keep followers away from outside ideas and doubts.
@tim joe
What if you discover water is brought into Mecca.
Would that break your faith. If your faith is strong. Search out the truth.
@tim joe
Search "water supply to Makkah"
@tim joe Why is water trucked in for the Pilgrims?
@tim joe I have not seen a depiction of the aquifer there. I have seen those under the Libyan sand.
100% in agreements with you Jay, they destroyed the black stone their only a few pebbles of it left. The Stone has suffered repeated desecrations and damage over the course of time. It is said to have been struck and smashed to pieces by a stone fired from a catapult during the Umayyad Caliphate's siege of Mecca in 683. The fragments were re-joined by Abd Allah ibn al-Zubayr using a silver ligament which looks like a woman private part, so how can they still say Allah presence is in the stone if its smashed to pieces, if god presence left Petra due to the earthquake then I'm confidant a smashed up rock would destroy his presence also, Allah failed to protect Muhammad, the Blackrock that was a pagan rock and he failed to protect the preservation of the Quran, in baseball we call that 3 strikes you are out, Peace and love my dear brother, many of blessings...
In the beginning, the stone was white
@@canonjean-mignon4985 , yeah in your world it was, lol.
@@bobfisher1909 and who are You?
And they kiss these rock fragments encased in a wax ball. How many of them know that? The lie is so strong that they never question it!
@@canonjean-mignon4985 Why don’t they use white wax when they “repair” it every 3 months? It’s rock fragments inside of a wax ball. It’s no secret either, you can find videos of the process
Maybe they chose it because of its anonymity i.e. no previous history just ready to start afresh.
Perhaps they thought a unknown village would be the way to go because they took inspiration from Nazareth? The rest of the story doesn't really back up the kind of world view where humility and vulnerability is where one finds God though, so I doubt it was well thought through.
In the name of Lord ,,,,,,,,
We have come to proclaim a great witness to all the people of the world.
Listen to the voice of the Lord and believe in recovering from this great tribulation.
Those seven verses are the pure of the Lord who descended from heaven in these last days. 🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹
( Tamil to english)
1.கூட்டாக நாம் யாரிடமும் பேசுவதில்லை நாம் நாடியவரை தவிர !
1. Everyone affectionately ! other than one related ones !
2.நீர் சொப்பனத்தில் கண்டவர் யாரென்று நாம் அறிவிக்கட்டுமா?
2. Shall, I reveal the name of the person you saw in your Dreams? 🌷
3.உலகத்தின் அருட்கொடையை சொப்பனத்தில் கண்ட பாக்யவானே! நீர் யாரென்று நாம் அறிவிக்கட்டுமா?
3.Fortune king, Who saw the mercy of world endownment in your dreams, Shall I announce Who you? Are to all?? 🌻
4.மானிடமகனே! உமது பணி வெகுவிரைவில் துவங்க உள்ளது அஞ்சாதீர் !🌹
4.Dont Panic ! Son of man! Your work of mercy and grace is going to begin soon.🌹
5.இந்நூலை நாமே வெளியிடுவோம். 🌹
5. We will publish this book ourselves.
6.உம்மை இழிவடைந்தவர்களில் ஒருவராக நாம் ஆக்கமாட்டோம்.
6. (Will Never) We dont make you as the Person of Disgrade !!🌼
7__________________________
7 .---------------------------------------
Let us proclaim this seventh verse to all the tribes of the earth (if the Lord wills) to bear witness to the truth of a people chosen by the Lord.
Guys! There is a living connection between those 7 verses and the scripture you have.
Ignoring these 7 verses will make you the first human being to lie to the scripture you have.
Because the Lord says in the Old Testament Zechariah 3: 9.
JPS Tanakh 1917
For behold the stone that I have laid before Joshua; upon one stone are seven facets; behold, I will engrave the graving thereof, saith the LORD of hosts: And I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day.
O! People of the book,,,, Where is the verse engrave by the Lord with 7 bands on this stone which was foretold to the Israelites ???
The Lord reminds you of this again in the New Testament.
"Seven thunder was heard, and when I began to write it I was told not to write down what the seven thunder said". (10: 4) revolution.
Your scripture is not complete because those 7 verses are hidden. The Christian world knows this!
Because among those who have divided the great scriptures into various pieces.
More deadly plague than the disease that has now come
Coming in 2022. It will spread from the two wild dogs that died on the rock ... Warning !!!
Remember that it is not my intention to spread fear and panic. This is to protect you from the severe punishment of the Lord to come, and so that no one may perish without knowing it (true dharma).
I announce.
For Attention ! People of the books,,
Believe in those 7 verses that were sent down to this stone in the last days. I truly say that you have the immense reward of the Lord.
Blessed by the hand of the one Lord who descended from heaven,,,
This is from,,,,,, Son of Man.
A Center of Religious Activity without ancient historical and archaeological evidence prior to the 8th century is highly dubious to be considered authentic. So Mecca is just one of those creative fantastical story.
Mecca, Las Vegas, Phukket, Macau are the same?
My favourite islamic question is how did Mecca begin an grow as the world's first city with no fresh water for hundreds of miles I am still waiting for a answer
it may have been a green-landscape once upon a time ie at the beginning,mayb.
jay's point 4 on trade up west coast.little boats could have ferried west trade over to east coast.
i say wat I say bcoz I think there may be some truth too Mecca box in ksa as in having an origin at prophet muhammads time.
one being,that inner Kaaba has floor markings were Muhammad stood.
second point,India may have ties too shrine at Mecca Kaaba back in 570AD.
don't ask me tho,Google research it.
they are expert in living in a desert in hundred years so i think they know what to do to living in desert, choose the direction, looking for oasis etc etc
yeh,but I don't think the Hebrew speakers/jewish have knowledge of this prey/pray.and they will know better than others coz they are identifyable family to Avraham.
@Forgiving Fragrance .i think the pray of presidence of Abraham is the mentioning of bible saying were Jesus saith(John told) ,Abraham rejoyest at seeing his day.👈 i don't think you will get a better answered pray than that!
keep fingers crossed 🤔
1:00 There was no "cool" choice. It has been made in a "civil" war period. It is Zubayr who have decreed that he was holding the "place of the Prophet" to rally Arabs vs Abd al Malik. This one has defeated him. Zubayr was the creator of Mecca and the Kaba" for political reason, nothing else. Abd al Malik has recovered what his rival had done.
Zubayr was born in Medina but after losing the battle on Petra maybe he had no real power base there. And the bring the black stone to close to the Allat's temple in Ta'if makes more sense. OR it was Al-Hajjaj ibn Yusuf the General who killed Zubayr and destroyed the Kaaba and had broken the Black stone by catapult. His birth town was Ta'if
@@maxschon7709 Zubayr was Iraqi. Iraq was under control of Damascus since Muawiya. That is why Zubayr was revolting vs Abd al Malik. Yathrib in the peninsula is irrelevant here, it was a swamp. Holding the "place of the Prophet" that Zubayr had decreeded having found was a very threat to Malik power because this story of a "prophet" that nobody knew in Damascus (nothing about islam/prophet/Mecca/Medina, Kaba before 692 in Syria-Palestine only some texts) could rally many people. That is why Malik was obliged to go to the "place of the Prophet" that Zubayr had invented :"Mecca". It could not be possible that a rival hold what could rally all the Iraqi vs Damascus.
@@user-yz1dl3eu8l Abd Allah ibn al-Zubayr was born in Medina says the traditional narrative. Medina was Yathrib. I think Al Zubayr was his father.
@@maxschon7709 I do not think historical the traditional narrative.
@@user-yz1dl3eu8l en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abd_Allah_ibn_al-Zubayr I mean this guy, not his father. He rebelled and claimed him to be Caliph of Mecca.
I love your myth busting!!
I think, the writer of SIN had a positive reason in chosing the city of Mecca as the center of the story (better say 'the myth') he (or she) invented. At full knowledge that the story was a pure myth, it is reasonable that he did not choose any well known international cities or places with which to begin, otherwise it would have been decimated by the populace almost immediately after its launching, let alone propagating worldwide, as the later could go there and checked for the veracity of it.
what was the reason 4 building buildings facing petra b4 727? Why/who was trying 2 make a whole new narrative from petra? was it a religion different from islam, which malik adopted, cr8ted mecca and the start of holeybook.
Amazing, Brutal Logic.
**Typographic error in the description below the video.**
The first "there" you wrote, should be "their".
Thanks, corrected!
There would have been a natural aquifer in Mecca ...and it’s possible that Ibn Zubyr placed the stone there after change of kibLa...it may have had a small worship place for the locals at the time ?
I think Mecca was chosen after Petra because it was close to Ta'if which was the city of Allat the female goddess and wife of Allah/Dushera. After the destruction of the Kaaba in Petra which might been seen by some that Allah could not protect his own house and new place was needed. And such a place had to be "free" no claims on it, no history, no people. That iv the only way to claim there had been an former worshipping to it if nobody was there.
Slightly off, the destruction was a historical omen that the god of the temple had already left. For the Hebrews it happened twice and Christians once at Constantinople. Egyptians had the plagues strike their priests and temples and the Phillistens had Samson. I am sure examples can be found in India or Indochina, like Ankar Wat or the Mayan Cities.
@@gilbertjones9157 I didn't mean by earthquake - that happened later. I meant by war. Al Hajjaj conquored Mecca /Petra and killed Al Zubayr.
@John Wick Oh, Christians who treated their dead like Zoratrians?
@@maxschon7709 correction noted and will apply. It would be helpful to know source used and dates internal to it and accepted dating applied to sourced material.
How does someone trade in milk in a dessert? Milk spoils very quickly in heat! Make sense of this for me, please.
It's almost like children creating sand castle and tell stories about it. but for the worst, it's adults that created then believe in that story
the creation of sand castle will take over your human worshiping
If Mecca did not exist why did ibn Zubar take the black stone there? Why would he not take the black stone to some locality that existed. How did ibn Zubair survive if he took the black stone to an area where nothing was established?
Mecca did not exist the way the traditions tell us. Just like Petra, Mecca was a pagan sanctuary, there were many Kabas in Arabia, Zubair simply chose Mecca to get as far away from Abdul Malik as he could, but when Muhammad was introduced and the Quran was introduced in the north by Abdul Malik in order to compete with Byzantine Christians then everything had to be changed to Mecca by the Abbasids because that is where Zubair took the stone, if he had not done that then everything about Islam would be centered around Petra not Mecca. The Abbasids had to invent the origins of Islam and construct the life of Muhammad in the 9th-10th centuries and mentioning Mecca only once in the Quran and describing it like they had never been there, but describing Petra like they had been there, it was all political
The only religious center in that area was on the west side Ethiopia, and that was the Coptic Church the Askum empire and that was during the 3rd or 4th century. If there was any record of Mecca or the history of Islam the Ethiopians would have recorded it.
Nabetians were known as king of deserts, master of water management in desserts, worshipping black stone , Macca ( presently at Soudi Arabia) was having wast chunk of lands owned by Nabetians.
The best place to hide and save. Nabetians from attackers.petra capital of Nabetians was destroyed by Earthquake, Macca was most suitable for making new residing place to Nabetians. In last quarter of 7th century Nabetians shifted to Macca from Petra.
Jay Smith, the myth buster.
Mecca was the first disneyland.
Don't disrespect Disneyland please!
and jerusalem was the first disneyworld
Thank you Sir!!!
Listening to all the logic arguments. Consider the newˋ Mecca to be the wonder God created since it is not affected by earthquakes… the wonder is that this city still exist in spite the lack of water
I love your videos generally but tbh I’d rather know why they made the choice, not why the choice was poor
The location of Mecca made it easier to defend the black rock probably, and the location also made it easier to evaquate the black rock if an attack were comming. They get warnings early. The defence/guarding of the rock had very high priority. Then and now. Why is not the defence of the holy black rock the 6th reason?
That doesn't seem to be the reason that they went there.
@@k3D4rsi554maq It is further from the boiling pot, and as I understand they evaquated there with the black rock.
I can not recall the source or the full story but Mecca was attacked some time in the 900's and the leader of the attack asked Where are your birds to attack us? Referencing the Hoopa bird story in the Quran.
Could Mecca be the location where the black stone was found? We need to know the story of the black stone.
ahhahahah you are so funny ahhaha...btw is this a comedy?....by just reading the title already makes me want to laugh...congratulation for that hahahhaah
Are you Sponge Bob Square Pants? You write like him.
@@hdl135605 hahahahah
Maybe Mecca was chosen because it doesn't have any history to contradict their story.
Yes
sir can you explain about zam2 water since when was it built when it was renovated, how strong is the pump, how did they get water before pump technology existed, where did the water source come from, and also the origin history of it where name zam2 came from, what its languange really is as Dan Gibson mention its came from Deuteronomy 2:20 because this is always used as evidence of the existence of the city of Mecca
Deuteronomy 2:20 refers to a former people whom the Jews called the Rephaim ("terrible ones", "mighty ones", "giants") and the Ammonites called the Zamzummites (the schemers or the schemed against). There is no reference in that verse to any well or any city, just a group of people , "great, many, and as tall as the Anakites" that the Ammonites had driven out. Seriously, there is NO way that any literate person could take this as evidence of Mecca.
@@richardokeefe7410 yes.. and that is the one and only literature that mantion the conconant z-m-z-m..
@Ben Green56 and the question is when did they have that technology to pump the water in masive volume.. meaning that before that they had none
So you have a black stone and you head South. Why pick Mecca then? I wonder if what happened was they looked for a potential port on the West Coast. And created Jidda. Even then why the place chosen for Mecca? Still need those answers.
@Forgiving Fragrance
Just goes to show what a useless "planner" the god of islam is -- how many times has the kaaba been flooded by sewage water?
@Forgiving Fragrance
Try consulting Prophetess Google (Peace be upon HER) about "Kaaba flooded by sewage water" and check out the images... Don't forget to clothe your Laptop/i-Pad/Cellphone in a burqa/chador and hijab/niqab when consulting HER or you may get false results...
The God of the Bible can have a son, the god of the quran cannot.
@Forgiving Fragrance Produce the evidence. Becca is not Mecca and Medina just means City and there are a lot of places across North Africa and the Mid East with the moniker City (Medina) several in Morocco.
@Forgiving Fragrance You need education on the Testaments. When He was arrested and at His trial; He use the words I am twice in each place = to Exodus account for Moses. No references - you read to find them, educate yourself.
@Forgiving Fragrance
All you need to do is... Ask yourself this question : Why did the Jews want to kill Jesus or have Him killed ?
I guess the selection of Macca is a result of agreement between Abassid and Umayyad Caliphs. They wanted this palce safe and not part of this two power.
You have a point.
Another point .... why was Mecca not chosen as the point for a direct flight by moh to meet god? Why did Moh need to change planes in Jerusalem ??
Mecca was basically just a pagan place🤣🤣
That's where it all began. It was the center of idol worship.
The ancient name of the city of meca is BAKAH , the place where King David pilgrimage recorded on Psalms,
untill nowadays tthis name BAKAH still used by locals to name their bussines ( hotels , shops etc )
@Jesus is Life
Kabah in central BAKAH is valley sorounded by mountains Jabal NUR, Jabal Tsur, Jabal Rahmah, Jabal Qubais and Jabal Qurban
BAKAH in Hebrew alfabet is written He Bet Kaf He ( H BKH) means weeping same as BAKAH in ARABIC means weeping from it story Ismael weeping thirsty and the angel made him the famous spring Zam Zam that exist untill nowadays
Psalms 84:5-6 (ASV) Blessed is the man whose strength is in thee; In whose heart are the highways [to Zion].
Passing through THE VALLEY OF WEEPING they make it a place of SPRINGS ; Yea, the early rain covereth it with blessings.
Do You think Nabatean Arabic move the Zam Zam SPRING from Petra to Mecca?
@@MrXucinxgaronx Pslam 84 is describing pilgrimage to 'Zion' i.e Jerusalem which in Davids day they worshipped God in the Tabernacle with the Ark of the covenant before the Temple was made by Solomon, so how on earth are you making the link to Mecca or the Kaaba from the Bible? your desperate ..there is no Mecca that begins to thrive as a city before the 8th century
@@frankjaeger9068
Zion means the Mountain / House of God match with the Kaaba, The only house of God At the David's time there is no House of God IN Jerusalem but Kaaba in Bakkah/Mecca
@Jesus is Life
Mecca described in Quran VALLEY THAT HAS NO PLANT
('Ibrāhīm): 37 - O our Lord, verily I have placed a part of my descendants IN A VALLEY THAT HAS NO PLANTS NEAR YOUR HOUSE (BAITULLAH ) who are honored, O our Lord (such that it is) so that they offer prayers, then make the hearts of some humans inclined to them and give them sustenance from fruits, hopefully they will be grateful.
@Jesus is Life
Your comments prove you know nothing about Mecca sorounded 5 mountains Jabal Tsur, Jabal Rahmah, Jabal Nur, Jabal Qurban and Jabal Qubais
Every pilgrim from all over the world used to visit those mountains
Napoleon Bonaparte own SCIENTISTS says mecca inside behind that meteorite had many pa·gan idols inside as if it was converted.