4L60E Autopsy: Comeback-No 3rd/4th Gear Shortly After Rebuild!
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 14 ก.พ. 2024
- In this video, I do an autopsy on a 4L60E that I recently built for a customer which lost 3rd gear within only 200 miles! Unfortunately, these things occasionally happen to all builders however the cause of this one mystified me. So after receiving the transmission back from the customer, I elected to film and document the tear down for both transparency's sake as well as to determine what went wrong and why so that learnings can be applied to all my 700R4 and 4L60E rebuilds going forward.
Note: Valve Body will be tested in a separate video featuring the Sonnax test plate for 4L60Es (it was previously tested prior to letting the trans go out the door - nothing remarkable was observed in testing).
Viewer's Note: There will be a follow up video on this transmission once I complete my investigation, which is expected to wrap within a week or so of this video's publication date (2.15.24). - ยานยนต์และพาหนะ
You are a great mechanic and I love your work and videos. Carry out transmissions were always a scary experience for me. Had an e4od that I built and was a carry out. Customer stated that it would not work at all, no forward or reverse. Went to the customer to investigate and found that he had not put any fluid in the unit. Ruined the pump and some bushings. Yes I did make some mistakes while learning, and I am still learning. The first transmission that I built was a cast iron power glide. I’m 74 years old now and I really enjoy watching your work and videos. You should be very proud of your achievements.
Thank you for the kind words, Wilburn! Appreciate your viewership, as always.
Yep, carry outs carry that extra element of risk simply because we don't have the vehicle available so if something does go wrong or we made an assembly error of some sort, we don't have the 'rolling transmission dyno' to catch it before the customer does.
@nickstransmissions where are you located?
Hi Scotfrey, I don't give out my location on TH-cam but you are welcome to contact me via Tahoeyukonforum.com...Simply join, if not already a member, and shoot me a PM - my user name is the same as it is on here.
Thank you for watching!
Videos like this are invaluable to us backyard DIY guys. There's a methodical procedure going on to investigate the root cause of the problem. Looking forward to seeing the diagnosis and repair.
Thank you for the kind words, NV!
Hope to see an update soon, have this exact same concern on my truck after rebuild but I’m sure my 3-4 is smoked so, will be keeping an eye out for the update, great video!
Thanks, Sam...I plan on filming a follow up showing valve body testing as well as a re-pressure test of that drum to see if anything more can be learned, 'smoking gun' identified.
Hi again Nick. You Sir are a stand up Guy! Please when you find the problem let us know! Thanks Nick!👍👍👍
Thank you, Doug and will do.
Enjoyed it. It all looked good to me too. Mismatched vendor frictions of varying widths should not have caused it.
Thanks, man...Yep, mixing and matching friction discs from different manufacturers will never cause this type of problem as long as those frictions were made for a given clutch pack in a given transmission.
Awesome Man!!
Thanks as always, HMG!
🎉Failure was the 3-4 load springs. That drum spins very fast and creates centrifuge. The clutch pack was applying while high in the rpms.
Thank you for watching, Cade....Load release springs (or lack thereof) had nothing to do with the failure...check out the follow up video to learn what actually happened; it was surprising to even me when I found out: th-cam.com/video/GMcuVdMhjKo/w-d-xo.html
I'll be doing a separate video on load release springs in these transmissions as there seems to be some confusion as to when to use them, when not to and it's not a 'one-size-fits-all' proposition.
My 4l65e doesnt have 3rd gear after rebuilt. If i put the indicator in drive it slips in 3rd gear. If i put the indicator in 3rd gear it stays in 2nd gear. I replaced the vss and it finally shifted into 3rd gear and i thought i had it fixed but after driving it a few more times it went back to doing the same thing. I unplugged the harness and it still moves in forward and reverse
Hi Justin, since your 3-4 clutch seems to be applying but not holding/slipping and you have already replaced the VSS (presumably with an OEM VSS - if not, install an AC Delco VSS) I suspect a mechanical issue. Pull the dipstick and smell the fluid for any burnt smell...If any hint of burnt clutch material is noted, drop the pan and see what's on the bottom...It's likely the 3-4 pack is heavily stressed/partially burnt and is slipping under load (but still viable enough to hold at or near idle RPMs.
Hi Nick, I've always have said, If you don't have comebacks you ain't doin much! That said, you do Transmissions and carry outs, You have no control over what goes on after your perfect rebuild goes out the door! There are so many things today like garbage parts, improper install, moron drivers and other things that have nothing to do with your work. We know you ain't trying to hide anything and vehicles will always try to make you look bad, all you can do is your best! Shit happens!👍👍
Yep, all very true! Carry-outs are very risky and from what I have read, industry come-back rate for these in upwards of 20% (my come back rate is around 1%).
As always, thank you for watching, Doug!
This is why we do no bench work here. We verify the entire job before it leaves. There is no such thing as an acceptable leak here. Flushing the cooler is critical as well, we bi-directional pressure solvent flush and then do a bi-directional pulsed hot-oil flush, then flow-rate verify the cooler system. Cooler thermostats are removed when appropriate as well.
Yep, cannot argue whatsoever with you there...Benchwork carries a much greater overall amount of risk in general since you don't have the vehicle itself to care for those things you mention. But this one didn't fail until 200 miles down the road so may have been tougher to catch even during a full-service rebuild where the entire vehicle's in the shop, all lines/coolers flushed and system completely cleaned.
I always use release springs in 3/4
I use them in HP applications or whenever 3-4 clearance is below .040" which is where I've been putting it lately (.028-.040).
That said, the presence or absence of load release springs didn't have anything to do with why this one came back.
Thank you for watching, @b.c6015
Pressing the shaft out (with heat on the drum) is to be able to loctite it back in to prevent leaks to the 3-4 clutch, and then the drum you can heat up again after cleaned and stick the input in the freezer and then use green loctite and the shaft falls in. One small tap of a hammer to make sure it’s seated and you don’t need a press. And you don’t need to risk damaging the drum. And that’s 1 of many 3-4 internal leaks but a big one
Hi Josh, thank you for watching. That's a very good approach for those without a press and proper tooling (and even for those with such tooling)...You're correct - the icy hot method is a great way to avoid damage due to stresses of pressing the shaft in and out of the drum. Will try that out and perhaps do a video..If I do, I'll mention you by name to give you credit for the suggestion.
I want to ask you. I've always been told the release springs are a must and brand new ones at that. We were taught there's a design issue with the 3/4 hydraulic circuitry that doesn't release the pressure quick enough on the clutch pack when shifting out which causes the 3/4 clutches to drag for a little bit, wearing them pretty bad. The springs help speed up the release.
Hi Brian, not sure if you're asking me or Josh but I'll be doing a video on the load release springs soon as it's a hot topic when it comes to these transmissions and there's not a one-size-fits-all approach when it comes to reinstalling vs leaving them out.
@@nickstransmissions have you ever heard of the 3/4 clutches releasing too slowly?
They will release on time unless there's something wrong with the 3-4 return spring assembly...Their primary function is to prevent centrifugal apply at high RPM when being driven through. This can be a problem, especially in non-stock applications where the engine has been built to be significantly more powerful than stock.
Have you watched the follow up video to this one?
Thanks brother for sharing this I really enjoy it ... I saw a lot of people say that we should keep the load spring on the 3-4 clutch drum ... was is the benefit to remove them ? Thanks again
Thank you for the kind words, basic detail!
I leave them out primarily for stock or mild performance because they arent necessary and act as an opposing force against clutch apply and last thing you need in that clutch is something standing in it's way. The exception here is when the 3-4 clutch pack clearance dips below .035. If that's the case, I put them back in as they will prevent drag when you have tight clearances. Also, in real high RPM situations with super loose converter in race situations they prevent centrifugal apply, along with high rate return springs and special bleeder orifices.
@nickstransmissions thanks for the detailed answer nick I appreciate 🙏... let me tell you my story that can amuse you .... I got an 97 400hp corvette 4l60e and it's gonna be my 3rd rebuild in 12k miles 🤯 my rebuilder got a lot of experience with tow truck but in the performance world I start to doubt...
The 2 last tranny my rebuilder done for me the 3-4 gradually start to slipping until is death ... alto clutch and a " full " rebuild but i admid that the 3rd shift was very crispy maybe to crispy i even add an tranny cooler ..... this tranny wasn't the oem ...it came from a crash c5 with 25k mile ...i pay 1200$ for the tranny and diff ... and at the time I pay a mecanic 600$ to remplace the broken oem (no foward... the sprag is gone) with the 25k mile unit but he run the tranny with only 5 quart in it and burn it right away so I send the car to my rebuilder pay 2600$ first time and the second 1500$ to make a 50/50 because i was out of the warranty ( he give me only 3k miles on warranty 3 month ...he change is speech of the 12k mile speech the moment I pay the bill ....anyway now he accepts to take the bill for the next one ....
This time I will pay the extra for un sonnax shell and I buy new 3-4 piston , aluminum accumulator, new epc and i ask for the z pack ....
I hope it's gonna be the end of this nightmare am close to the 6k$ this why I ask for the load spring ...I feel that keeping the load spring for the next one is a good idea because I'm not a burn head i never abuse always have an eye onnthe trans temp gage .. but dam it's a corvette 😅 thanks again I hope my story doesn't bore you
Damn...sorry to hear that. The load release springs are the LAST thing I'd be concerned about when it comes to repeated 3-4 failures after overhaul. Ask your builder if he pressure tested the forward drum for leaks at the base of the input shaft. If not, tell him to test it. That's likely the reason it's eating 3-4 clutches.
I do not like the Z-pack...The clutch plates are too thin, esp for performance. I use Alto's 3-4 Power Pack (high energy or Alto Reds) in a stock drum or a factory power pack (9 HE or Alto Red clutches, 8 .105" thick steels) in the Sonnax Smart Tech drum.
At this point, I'd bring your rebuilder a new input drum to install, unless he's already done so, in which case there's the possibility of the 3rd acc check ball capsule leaking (this is very rare but not totally unheard of).
Also get any warranties in writing. Verbal warranties are worthless.
@@nickstransmissions thanks for your advice and the time that you give me ... I appreciate so mutch my friend ! When im gonna have the 25k tranny on hands im gonna heat the drum like you talk in your last video to make te leak test Have a good week-end
You too, man!
I had come back on a 2007 4l60e about a year ago that had a lot of friction material in the pan and it turned out it was the converter lining coming apart. I always check converter bolt length because Ive seen more than once where a bolt dimpled the converter ever so slightly and caused converter failure. I would say that this would/could cause issues in the afl and/or 3-4 circuit. Just a thought
Hey Chad, thank you for watching and great input!
I still have the converter ready to go back to my converter builder who will cut it open for me so we can see what, if anything may have happend inside the converter that could have caused this failure.
Would you do anything differently if you did it again? I have a 05 4x4 Yukon 5.3L. 233,000 miles. Runs good now. Looking to get a used cheap broken 4L60/65/70 to rebuild with my teen as a DIY learning project. To have ready. I found a used one for $60, with nothing but Reverse working. For a daily driver, would any of those tranny work for it? Thanks!
Good questions...In this case, I wouldn't do anything differently insofar as rebuilding the transmission itself. I won't go into it any further about what I would tell the customer to do at risk of spoiling the outcome in case you haven't yet watched part 2:
th-cam.com/video/GMcuVdMhjKo/w-d-xo.html
In late 2005, GM started to install turbine shaft speed sensors (TSS) into the 4L60Es so that required a series of design changes to the pump, input drum as well as a new wiring harness and speed sensor itself. I might confirm or deny whether your current transmission has the speed sensor...Easiest way to do that is to call GM, ask for 'Parts' and give the parts guy the last 8 digits of your VIN...Then ask if that vehicle came with turbine shaft speed sensor-equipped 4L60E...He'll be able to tell based on the VIN. If your trans does have a TSS then you want to stick to L2005-2008 4L60Es...If not, any 2001-2008 4L60E will work...If your current trans doesn't have one but the core you buy for your project does, simply omit the speed sensor and install the 'blank' o-ringed plug that is available from GM to plug up that hole.
Hey Nick did you ever put the drum back together and check that orifice? I doubt that was the issue.. Something was causing a pressure issue. I seen no reason that trans shouldnt have been ok.. A gauge on that would've told the story but they may not have been an option to you or the customer.. Thanks for the video man!
Hey Bee Gee - not yet, it's sitting on the bench as we speak..Going to reassemble it prob over the weekend and re-test...If it fails, ill do a follow up video to close the loop on it...It did pass all tests and inspections prior to but, as you know, these drums can go bad at any time...In the case of this one, if that drum is leaking at that little area there, would tell me it was bad just not in a way that was visually detectible...
Thank you for watching!
My car is spot your problem. When you leave the load springs out for three four clutch. Every single time it will cause those clutches to burn up. Due to them not being released quick enough when the direct clutch and overdrive clutch band applies and the clutch for three four does not release quick enough that is due to leaving the load springs out and happens every single time to me. And of course depends on how he drives
Hi DJ,
Thanks for taking the time to watch and comment..If you haven't already, check out some of the other comments around load release springs...They actually had nothing to do with the failure (the actual cause is a bizarre variation of something I never even suspected)...You can watch the follow up where I reveal what actually happened with that thing:th-cam.com/video/GMcuVdMhjKo/w-d-xo.html
Had the exact same thing happen to me a few months back and it was in the 2/4 servo one of the teflon rings tour and held open the check ball in the case
Hey Jazzy, thank you for sharing and watching.
That's an interesting failure mode for sure...I believe this transmission (in the video) also had something happen with the 3rd acc check ball capsule but haven't had a chance to circle back to testing/evaluating anything on that unit as of yet..Been slammed with other transmission work but hope to post a follow up to it soon.
@@nickstransmissions it definitely taught me a lesson . I'm very curious of what you find
What can I do after I rebuilt one the tcc cylankid is stuck on, only thing might be is a shòt in avalanche that I 2s working on but couldn't find short so I'm asking if tcc cylankid is stuck open your opinion thanks great video
Thanks for the kind words, Michael...Sounds like your wiring harness/TCC solenoid should be replaced.
I got a laugh from your saying that some mechanics hammer steel shaft into the 4L60 forward drums. One 200-4R guru giving overhaul tips on that unit that the stator shaft often wears, and to replace it as needed, but DO NOT BEAT IT IN WITH A HAMMER! That would do wonders on the aluminum 200-4R pump covers . ;) I'm also amazed that some mechanics will use impact wrenches to assemble aluminum pumps & valve bodies, then wonder why a rebuild has weird shifting.
Lol, yep - you'd be surprised (or maybe you wouldn't) at what I see from time to time. I use a 1/4 impact to assemble pumps and bolt things onto the case, as you prob have already seen in other videos but that impact has maybe 50 in lb of torque at most...Some go at those parts with 3/8 or even 1/2 inch and at or near max power, which is dumb.
Thanks for watching, Mike!
My question is how long was your customer without a vehicle or transmission should I say. I'm having a similar situation my trans has been in the shop for two months same failure 3and 4 they can't fiquire it out 🤢AMMCO anybody know a good lawyer
HI Walt, thank you for watching and sorry to hear you're having a horrible experience with AAMCO (not surprised at all - they are infamous for being horrible everywhere).
I had that unit for about a week then another week when it came back.
New subscriber 🔥🔥🔥
Thank you, Tony!!! Welcome aboard🍻
Do you have vacuum checking tools for the valving?
Finding the root cause is more important than replacing parts. If you just replace parts until it's "fixed", you'll never learn what corrected it.
Air check the clutch and drum assemblies with the trans assembled and valve body off - that way you can verify the upper assembly apart from the valve body.
Also, prior to pulling the unit, did you put a gauge on it to see what the pressures were in all ranges and gears?
See below:
Q: Do you have vacuum checking tools for the valving?
- Yep, vac check everything before and after assembly:
th-cam.com/video/-kItEdky2U8/w-d-xo.html
Q: Finding the root cause is more important than replacing parts. If you just replace parts until it's "fixed", you'll never learn what corrected it.
- Agree, and I believe that's mentioned several times in this and my previous 4L60E autopsy video but worth mentioning in the event folks don't watch but read the comments.
Q: Air check the clutch and drum assemblies with the trans assembled and valve body off - that way you can verify the upper assembly apart from the valve body.
- Been doing that for years via a test plate: th-cam.com/video/5hV5BH8zKkc/w-d-xo.html
Funny you mention this, as some clown was trying to post in one of my other videos yesterday that case air checks were a waste of time...
Q: Also, prior to pulling the unit, did you put a gauge on it to see what the pressures were in all ranges and gears?
- I didn't pull the unit - this (and all my work) is bench/carry out. Customer will be doing a line pressure test upon reinstallation but prior to driving the vehicle out of an abundance of caution (plus complete system clean out).
Please keep all responses in this thread if you wouldn't mind.
Thank you for watching, Billy!
So Billy....What's your theory? What happened here and why did this fail, in your mind?
I had the Same problem on mine turned out the filter on the pressure solenoid was clogged cleaned it up and worked great after that
Thank you for watching and sharing, Luis! I bet that same issue was at play here, given the amount of dissolved TCC material in the fluid. As others mentioned it likely clogged up the filter as well, causing the intermittent no-movement condition reported by the vehicle's owner.
I know you said the reverse input drum had nothing to do with the 3-4 clutch, does the difference between the drums from the 4L60 to the 4L60E have different hole sizes, there's a square hole drum and a round hole drum, I'm not a transmission builder but am a mechanic and watched a fair few videos, do have my own transmission to build so I watch as much as I can before attempting to tackle my own. You have great knowledge on the workings of the transmissions. My comment was a stab from what I've watched online. Watched a lot from a channel called precision transmission.
Thank you for watching and the kind words, Jose...
There were/are three reverse input drum designs for the 700R4-4L60E family:
1. First design (1982-1987) - small square feed hole; used stamped steel apply piston and bleeder orifice capsule in the drum
2. Second design (1988-1992) - small round feed hole; used aluminum apply piston and bleeder orifice in the piston; none in the drum
3. Third design (1993+) - large square feed hole; used aluminum apply piston and bleeder orifice in the piston; none in the drum
The first and second design drums are obsolete; if you were to purchase a new drum for any year 700R4 and/or 4L60/65/70E, you would be sold the third design drum, which is still in production as it back services all years of 700R4.
Sir. From my understanding. There is an encapsuladed check ball that causes some of these issues. There is a simple procedure of taking a sirenge and filling the ball. Checking to see if its leaks.
You're correct - its called the 3rd accumulator check ball capsule but it's not common for it to leak. When it does leak, you typically get 2-3 flare shifts to outright slippage, depending on the severity. Check out part two for what ultimately caused this particular comeback: 4L60E Comeback No 3-4 After Rebuild - Mystery Solved!
th-cam.com/video/GMcuVdMhjKo/w-d-xo.html
I show how to test that capusle for leaks...
Also, thank you for watching!
Im rrbuilding my transmission and i was curious in the 3-4 drum are the forward return springs necessary to put back in the drum? I see yours didnt have any in it
Hi Josh, thanks for watching. I leave the load release springs out unless my 3-4 clutch pack clearance is .040 or less. If so, i install them. I also install them if RPMs are expected to routinly exceed 5500 RPMs (along with the Transgo HR return spring kit).
@@nickstransmissions thanks for the information. I'll check out my clearances and may leave mine out because mines just a daily driver
You're welcome, Josh. Let me know if you have any questions along the way.
@@nickstransmissions I definitely will do you have an email that I can email may have some more questions along the way with my transmission rebuild since I'm doing it myself to save money
Just reply to this comment with any questions or problems you run into and I'll help where I can...This way others who may run into the same situations or have similar/same questions can view the responses...Thanks, Josh.
I just had the same problem....kinda. I replaced my trans with a remanufactured one and It dosent work at all. At first, I had reverse, but it sounded like it was binding up a little, and I had 1st and neutral and drive etc. I tried to drive it and it had first and second but never would go into third. before I could get it back in the garage, I lost reverse completely, it tries to drive in neutral, drive and all the other gears. I don't know what could have happened. I've triple checked all my electrical connections. I don't know what's going on.
Hi c r, thank you for watching and sorry to hear you're having problems with it...From your description of the symptoms, it sounds like some things were misassembled in the case and it needs to come back out.
Have you contacted the reman company about the problems?
@@nickstransmissions Thank you for your quick reply. yes, I did contact the manufacture. I told them that I bought a diagnostic scanner to see if that would tell me anything. They said that they would like to see what it said with the live data because its an electronically controlled transmission. I ran into a problem with that thought because my scanner is OBD 2 and my vehicle is an OBD 1. I hate to have to pull the new transmission and start all over again but I think that's going to be my only choice.
You're welcome...Drop the pan and see what's at the bottom...If the fluid is black towards the bottom and you see a whole bunch of burnt clutch material, take a picture or two so the reman company can see as well...Then put the pan bolts back on and yank it out to send back to them.
The logistics are always a pain point when dealing with non-local remanufacturers...
You're definitely a Craftsman of your trade and a make great video to boot!🍿
Thank you, KQ!
Appreciate your kind words and time🍻
Ever find the problem? Had a comeback similar to this one, no obvious cause
Yep. A follow up video with the root cause will be posted on Apr 4th.
Was your come back very recent/current or was it a while back?
@@nickstransmissionsim looking forward to the video dude!
For sure, Robert! I'm going to publish it tomorrow (Apr 3rd) at 5pm EST instead of Apr 4th.
Wow awesome work, we're is the best place to buy parts for a 4l60e ?
Thanks for watching and the kind words, Frank!
Your best bet for parts is local transmission parts supply shops. Contact Transtar or visit their website for a local Transtar distributor in your area...Online: eBay (search 'Deluxe kits' for your transmission type), Transpartswarehouse.com, Cobratransmissionparts.com, WITPerformance. For high performance stuff, you'd have to let me know what specific unit you're working on and I can point you in the right direction.
@@nickstransmissions Just asking because I heard some of the China stuff was really bad parts.
Yep, avoid as much as possible though unfortunately there are some parts for some transmissions where replacements are made in China and no where else but those are relatively few in number, at least for the transmissions I regularly work on....But in most cases, you can buy all USA-made parts. Raybestos, Alto and Borg Warner clutch/friction products are all made here while some of Exedy's stuff is made overseas. Most of the electronics made by the OEMs or Rostra are made in the US, Mexico, Canada or Japan.
Would it hurt a 4L60e to fill it up with Lucas tranny fix to see if a seal is the problem? Or maybe 50% Lucas?
Hi Thesetruths...What transmission and is the problem with it?
There really isn't any genuine bottle-based fixes out there, most are a total waste of money while others only help if the transmission is already healthy and the stuff helps reinvigorate the fluid to some small extent.
@nickstransmissions I was curious if the seal conditioners in Lucas or similar are strong enough to swell piston seals enough to stop leakage issues.
I have a 98 Pathfinder 4x4 automatic that usually won't go into 4th unless I let off the fuel pedal a little, then it kicks up and behaves as normal. Know what may cause this? It usually does it only if I'm stepping on it to get on Interstate. If I drive it like a granny to 75mph it doesn't do it, usually.
Gotcha....Short answer - No...Those lip seals and/or sealing rings are already too worn if you're experiencing the drivability symptoms that you've relayed above. You should have a Nissan RE4R01A transmission.
Hi Nick,I see there are a few rebuild books out there,I have a96 4l60e.What book would you recommend atsm blue or green or a fsm?
Hi Joe, by the ATSG manual if you'd like a physical manual/book...Otherwise, you can view the ATRA manual here: www.uscars.biz/uscars/extras-documents/ATRA_GM_4L60-4L60E_(700R4)_Rebuild_Procedures.pdf
@nickstransmissions thanks Nick still confused ,is that the blue or green book?
Ok - I think you're talking about the two different ATSG manuals, right?
If so, buy the green book: www.amazon.com/ATSG-4L60E-4L65E-Update-Handbook/dp/B012GWGUEY/ref=asc_df_B012GWGUEY/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=312034012759&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=18195264547941618181&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9030832&hvtargid=pla-568902605643&psc=1&mcid=dfd9fa444e6e3bcd91d1540ad47b3cb1&gclid=CjwKCAjwuJ2xBhA3EiwAMVjkVMZNDyFuFVeg6LmNpBeHOUxaba8zwbZ6UX44qpUw3xiFoG_UN6-yPRoCUEIQAvD_BwE
To clarify, ATRA = Automatic Transmission Rebuilders Association - it's another industry/trade organization that also publishes tech manuals, articles as well as puts on seminars and participates in conventions and other, related industry activity...I leverage their stuff as well as ATSG.
@nickstransmissions what's your take on the Cliff Rugles book on 4l60
Go to precision transmission page he goes through in detail how to rebuild this, what to change, and what to expect if certain things aren’t.
Lol, Why on earth would I want to do that? Have you not see any of my other vidoes on here?
You're recommending that I go to a defucnt channel to "learn how to rebuild"?
Have you watched part 2??
If not, here it is: m.th-cam.com/video/GMcuVdMhjKo/w-d-xo.html
I know how to rebuild these transmissions...The loss of third gear had absolutely nothing to do with me or this transmission.
@@nickstransmissions it wasn’t a recommendation to you, but for some viewers that may need some pointers on what to look out for. I’m not saying you don’t know how to rebuild them, but it never hurts to have different sources. If you’re into knocking other people/channels down then that’s your own problem my guy. * COMMENT UPDATE* I’ve watched your second video and will say I’ve learned something new. When you’ve mentioned what electrical OEM parts to use or not to use was enlightening. My initial statement still stands as I was not insinuating to the viewers that you’re not credible. Although I do know everyone has a different perspective on how they receive information, however I’m not responsible for them receiving it positively or negatively. Again, admittedly I like the second video and thank you for pointing out that electrical issue.
All good, man...I didn't take offense but just wanted to express how things look from my point of view...I don't knock other folks channels, especially other transmission builders as we are all apart of the same community and like you said, having a diverse set of reference sources isn't a bad thing.
Glad you found the 2nd video informative and appreciate you watching and commenting!
Yea, that case was a textbook example to illustrate why folks should never use aftermarket electronics they get from the auto parts chain stores as they usually sell junk that does more harm than good, haha.
Thanks again, @BigShaykh!
Nice vid, having similar issue with my kids 97x, he just bought it and had a trans hose burst, lost fluid, only drove for mile or 2 on low fluid, replace hose, refill, now we’ve lost 3-4. I don’t think it’s clutches, some kind fluid issue, it has 3rd manually, just not when in drive.
Hoping a solenoid issue, prob not that lucky though.
Hi Joliver, thank you for watching...What happens when you shift from 2nd gear to 3rd gear in Drive?
Have you tried pulling the transmission fuse or unplugging the case connector on the pass side of the unit, then starting it up, putting it into Drive and seeing if it will move forward on its own?
If Sol A was stuck on, you'd shift from first to fourth (it's off in 2nd and 3rd gears); If Sol B was stuck on, you'd stay in 2nd gear upon upshifting from 1st.
You can put a bi-directional scanner on it, take for a test drive with live transmission data displayed to see what shifts are being commanded relative to what's actually happening...You can also command an upshift from 2nd to 3rd while in "Drive" to see what happens...If you 'false neutral' upon the 2-3 upshift, the 3-4 pack is wiped and trans has to come out for overhaul.
Let me know...
@@nickstransmissions
No, haven’t done the connector test test, just saw that option in your video, will try this afternoon.
Once vehicle is put in drive it shifts normally through 1st to 2nd, then at moment it should hit 3rd gear engine rpm’s climb and there’s no acceleration. This is in normal driving conditions.
I did (reluctantly) decide the accelerate heavily and noticed what felt like a shift and was able to drive it at 55 but at 3500 rpm.
I stopped there in hopes of minimizing further damage.
Noticing that late shift at higher rpm made me think of a fluid pressure issue.
Thanks for the quick response. I’ll check the large connector.
Sounds good but based on your more detailed description, 3-4 clutch pack sounds like it's been damaged/wiped and transmission needs to come out...Let me know how the 'limp mode' test comes out when you have a chance to do it...
@@nickstransmissions sure will
What car is this out of? Thanks
It's an LS 5.3 swap into an older Toyota SUV.
Definitely wabt to put load release springs in and clearance is wrong. Checkout richard from precision transmission, he talks about the springs in his video on 4l60e , you made the comment about the friction s being different thicknesses, better to not mix match
Thanks for watching, Matt...Couple things you should know:
1. Mixing, matching frictions is common practice, absolutely nothing wrong with it and certainly does not cause any failures, assuming the clutch is set up correctly (that one was) but you may not realize that unless you're a transmission builder (ETA - clearance was .050 when it went out the door, which is definitely not 'wrong')
2. There seems to be a lot of confusion on when to use those load release springs (at least you're using the correct term for them vs making up your own) but there isn't a 'one size fits all' rule when using them, it's more case by case basis - I'll do a video to help clarify when to use them and when to leave them out
3. If you want to know what actually happened with that transmission and why it came back, watch Part 2: th-cam.com/video/GMcuVdMhjKo/w-d-xo.html
👍
Thank you, David!
The only thing I don't like about ur build is the fact that you left ur load springs out. I would have blocked the case servo with 2 pistons n put a updated roller bearing where you still had the thrust washer.
Hey Nick, thank you for watching!
I never use those load release springs unless the trans is going to see a lot of RPM and clearance is going to be .030-.040 (and usually, Transgo's high rate return springs are sufficient in those circumstances). I have been moving away from the dual piston stack in the 4th accumulator as it tends to impede lube flow to the rear gear train...Instead, I have been using restrictors in stock to mild performance applications up to 3000 stall then beyond that, I have been blocking the 4th accumulator off all together and leaving that cavity completely empty...Allows for a nice crisp 3-4 upshift and provides completely unimpeded lube flow to the rear gear train...I'll likely do a video on 4th accumulator set ups and options at some point soon.
The t-bearing at the reaction shaft is a great idea and you're right - prob should have been done (the replacement that went out to the customer had one and a 5-pinion GM planet in the rear and Alto power pack w/HE clutches everywhere as a token of my appreciation for his patience).
@@nickstransmissions he didn't know about that transmission did he? 😂 If he did then I guess we know why you found nothing wrong. JK but only thing I can think is that one spot you think is a crack maybe does become a crack once it heats up.
Yep, the focus of the investigation is on that "crack" like formation on the drum...Plus you can see brown staining which to me looks like a hot spot. I will be doing a follow up vid on this one, showing the re-test of that forward drum and testing the valve body (they may be two separate vids since the valve body video will focus heavily on the valve body and Sonnax vacuum test equipment).
@@nickstransmissions sweet. That's something I want to learn more about. I have a th475 of my own I'm doing right now. It had 32 thousand original miles on it. It's perfect. I just drilled n tapped the holes to make it a 8 bolt case for an altra bell. Next is valve body work to make it semi auto basically. Funny thing is I learned it was a th475 from you. I thought it was just a 400. Thanks for that.
Awesome, man, and it's a pleasant surprise to find you have a TH475 as those are relatively rare...I still have mine as shown in that video series.
Love your videos! I just wanted to share a method I found here to help test the drum for leaks while it is hot. Basically you use a portable electric cooktop and a deep pot, put the drum and some fluid in there to fill about halfway up the drum and start warming it up. Once it is hot, then follow the procedure you did of adding some fluid and air checking the assembly. I had a transmission with a similar failure and leak was not present when the drum was at room temperature. It only showed up when I used this method. The method is discussed around the 4:30 minute mark. Here is the link: th-cam.com/video/9kyYqbplZ_0/w-d-xo.html
Thanks, man-appreciate both the kind words and the video link...I'll try this technique on the drum featured in this video, both cold and hot to see if leaks are present...it would have to be hemorrhaging out of the shaft/drum mating junction to cause the neutral 3-4 without burning the clutch pack but anything is possible with those friggin drums!
I'm not a transmission rebuilder, but I have tore up my share of transmission and installed plenty of stand alone TCM. I wonder what TCM is being used and if it is set up right. Is TPS for the transmission set up right and is the convertor lock up set up right. Some TCM use miles per hour, others use brake light switch to lock and unlock the convertor. There must be good inputs for the TCM to work right and let the transmission live. There's a whole host of setting in a TCM app will kill a transmission in a big hurry, if set wrong. A good stand alone TCM will do everything but f!#k you and you get that when buy it or set it up wrong.
Some of trash could of come out of the convertor, if it lock up to soon and powered through the lock up clutch.
Great input and excellent information to share for others reading this as the TPS (and MAF to an extent) are often behind poorly functioning transmissions and premature failures...I'll check in with the customer but his set up is a stock 5.3L with the same ECM and harness that came with that engine and transmission and was set up 10 years ago or so...Vehicle itself is part-time so he may have put 40-50k on it since...We discussed some of the electronics and other non-trans issues as being potential sources of the problems he's had with these two transmissions. He mentioned that he'll investigate to ensure nothing is awry with engine management systems as well as other things (he also had the gear ratios upgraded along with all new U joints, etc) so he's not opposed to correcting problems if they are there.
Thank you for watching!
It’s my thought that the customers issue or the transmissions problem is electronic, or possibly excessive wear and trash in the valve body but right there at the end man you lost me with all of that reluctor shaft and possible pump exchanging everybody should know that if you have a transmission that has a reluctor shaft, your pump cover and stater better have at least the provisions for an input speed sensor,or at least a input speed sensor in place. Those were made to work together, the one other thing I noticed the stack of steel parts in the 3/4 drum look like something out of a 1980s 700R4 all of the
4L60Es that I’ve taken apart had the five tangs or tabs made on to the apply plate it’s just me, but I will never let another Transmission go out the door as a shelf unit or carry out without a thorough understanding that if there’s an issue and you come back, you will pay again call it being overconfident in my work yes, I will tear it down and do an inspection and make it right but not for free. Been burned too many times. Many people that refuse or fail to flush the system and run diagnostics.or they reuse the old torque converter. I have one customer that even strained the old fluid and put it back in the transmission claiming it wasn’t that old and still smelled new. That shit was black as coal.
Not sure why I lost you at the end, or if you were simply confused by what i was trying to show but no builder in their right mind would make the mistake of mixing a reluctor gear -equipped shaft with a non-iss compatible stator. But there's a small number of drums produced with shafts that had the sealing ring grooves shifted lower on the shaft but DID NOT HAVE THE RELUCTOR GEAR ITSELF CAST INTO THE SHAFT. I know i didnt make that mistake but took the opportunity to discuss that shaft so folks, who may not be aware of it, now know to check for that when buying forward drums. It's an easy mistake to make if dont know to check.
And there is absolutely nothing wrong with using 700R4 apply plate and apply plate supports in 4L60E drums. You have to know the 700r4 and 4L60E 3-4 clutch housing portion of the drums are exactly the same from 1988+.
Ill be vac-testing that valve body in a near future video.
@@nickstransmissions it’s very possible that your initial build of the Transmission and testing of the valve body may have been spot on and perfect but one little mishap one bushing breakdown could do away with all of that, and create a number of issues because of the fine brassy metallic particles floating through the transmission, like metal dust that becomes a grinding compound. the next video on, that should be interesting to see
@@nickstransmissions Sonnax has a new 4L60 E smart tech clutch pack out or clutch kit. 77734-01k was just reading on this about an hour ago so I don’t know how new it is but apparently just recently released
You have just summed up 'transmission building' perfectly. Only so much is within our control...
Thanks, I'll check it out...I have also been interested in trying the COPE Racing 4L79 drum...It's a drum that accepts TH350 spec clutches in the 3-4 pack for more surface area and he's machined a bolt-on backing plate like the Sonnax smart drum but with TH350 spec direct frictions and steels. Here's the link if you're not already familiar with it: www.coperacingtrans.com/?product=4l79-drum
I have been watching your videos for a while and I have rebuilt several of these tranny"s. So far so good! Until now! Recent build works perfect BUT no fluid coming out of coolant lines.🤔. Shifts all gears. Wth?
Thank you for watching, Robert! I'd check for restrictions in the system somewhere or even fluid level. You should be getting plenty of flow from your cooler lines.
@@nickstransmissions that's what I said! It defy''s physics I think. I mean not a drop but I can drive it and shifts fine until it starts blowing fluid out dipstick tube in bout 15 miles. Lines are good. Somewhere internal. My thoughts are possible bushing spun or slipped blocking the pressure port to cooler or pressure regulator stuck 🤔 well no it wouldn't work at all then I pose. I dunno everything is working as far as pressure and suction pump wise it just won't come out to cool off. Gotta shut it down before it overheats and burns up. Just sayin! I mean I'm not trying to pry information I've just been everywhere looking for clues and not really coming up with anything. I watch your videos and was disecting the trans as you were taking it apart looking for a clue.
Take off the cooler lines and fittings to see if there's anything jammed or stuck that would explain it. Also drop the pan to see if anything unusual is observed...Otherwise, a walked bushing could be the cause as can debris clogging the cooler in/out flow passages in the pump-case conduits for those (and/or vent)....While we can continue to speculate, it will likely be taken out and torn down to find the problem, unfortunately...
@@nickstransmissions that's what I feared! The lines are off the tranny and still no oil from tranny itself on the pressure port. As far as everything getting pressure is ok. Reverse first second and so on. I will keep posted any discovery maybe will help future viewers in the event.
Yes, please let me know what you find as to the cause(s). Thanks, Robert.
Convetar problam sigal
Hi Mutaq Ahmad, thank you for watching...The converter was actually in good shape, no issues with the TCC circuit/signal.
Check out the follow up to find out what went wrong: th-cam.com/video/GMcuVdMhjKo/w-d-xo.html
the evidence of debri would point to a sticking or stuck valve or selenoid,def not your work that caused this failure
It's definitely possible- I have that valve body on the bench so will be doing a follow up video showing me testing that valve body as well as re-testing the forward drum to see if anything pops up.
Thanks for watching, GearheadTed!
accumulator in case was upside down
Hi Wolferine, thank you for watching!
The 4th accumulator piston's orientation in the case wasn't the reason the 3-4 clutch went out. You can put the 4th acc piston upside down or right side up. You can also block the 4th acc piston and leave everything out as well.
Please check out part 2 where I share what actually lead to the 3-4 clutch failure: th-cam.com/video/GMcuVdMhjKo/w-d-xo.html
The actual cause was something totally unexpected (at least by me).
@@nickstransmissions completely understand that it wasnt the cause, if i remember correctly you found a leaking check ball behind the 2/4 accumulator cup, but i wasnt wrong lol, even tho you can put it upside down or reverse it, thats not the way it comes, why change it? is it better? just bothers me unless theres a reason, also leaving out 3-4 springs may not initially cause a problem, and its hard to prove but on ones ive left them out seems like they dont last as long as ones with springs left in.. so now i always replace them with new ones.
No leaks in the 3rd accumulator check ball, I tested it on-camera...I've had less than 10 of those come in truly leaking over the years...most of the time, crud gets in there and causes a small leak, which can still lead to premature failure. Load release springs should be used anytime you're running clearances tight in the 3-4 which is what you should be doing. I install them anytime I'm under .040...I've built countless 4L60Es and 700R4s where the 3-4 clutch pack clearance is greater than .045 (usually .050-.060), no load release springs and they are still on the road, 100k, 125k plus on builds I did over 10 years ago.
If you want to better understand the "whys" behind certain mods you can watch some of my other videos where I discuss some of the theory behind certain practices and procedures or take a look at the hydraulic schematics, assuming you haven't already done either.
How many 4L60Es have you built, just curious?
Of those, how many times have you installed a Transgo SK4L60E shift kit?
Of those, how many come backs have you had due to putting the 3-4 accumulator piston in the bore with the legs facing down, over top the spring?
Did you watch part 2?
@@nickstransmissions i do 3-5 a week for about 15 years.. so on the low side ive built over 2, 250 4l60e's not to mention all the other units (not just stuck to gms) started with 700 r4's
normally dont run shift kits, they want things stock, never had a comback because i put the accumulator upside down, i just dont do it. most of the comebacks i get are with the 3-4 drum leaking where im lazy and i dont test it. never ran into the case check ball, but ive seen it alot online and have been looking for one, any other comeback normally is due to a bad part, "replaced valvebody, solenoids" something just failed out of the box. ive built tons of hondas more so back in the day of the front wheel drive vans. chrystler, you name it not afraid, been there got the tshirt lol.
3-5 per week is impressive, I manage to do 1-2 per week when I get a run of them in....I also do other units but your mix is a bit more diverse than mine (I haven't expanded yet to do the front-wheel drive stuff like Hondas).
Yea, the 2-3 acc check ball capsule in the case is definitely a very rare thing, most on-line discussions about it seem to be more of myth perpetuation than actual first hand accounts of seeing them genuinely bad. I once asked Dana at Pro Built about how often he's seen them leak and he said he had one leaking in a 700R4 years ago and he's done more 700s/4L60Es than I'll likely ever do, even if I lived to be 200 years old, lol.
Thanks again for watching, man...Appreciate the input.
This is what happens when you miss match and Hodge podg Clutch packs together. Your clearances are wrong. That's why your 3/4 clutch burns up, plus you left your low drag springs out 3/4 clutch that transmission went of lasted more than twenty thousand miles anyway.
If you are going to rebuild a transmission then rebuild it. Don't empty out your old parts drawer to save money. Because look at how much money you are saving now
Frictions are frictions, regardless of who makes them; though you may not be aware since you dont seem to be in the industry, mixing/matching is a fairly frequent practice. I dont mix-match friction types (ie standard and high energy, etc) though some do.
Wrong clearances? Again, no. Clearance of between .040-.060 for a 7 clutch stack is perfectly fine.
Lack of "drag springs"? No. I've built thousands just like that with no load release springs as have countless other builders and experienced no issues whatsoever. The trans that came out of there originally had a lot more clearance in that pack then this one did and the 3-4 pack survived. Dont believe me? Watch the first 4L60E Autopsy vid. This vehicle was/is a low rpm application with a stock 5.3L so no c-apply or drag.
None of the above explain this failure. I wish would have as it'd be a lot easier to understand.
Thanks for watching and commenting.
Grympy, you're mistaken on your "This is what happens when you miss match and Hodge podg Clutch packs together." statement. That includes race applications and has for many decades, it is not at all a "throw it together and get it out the door" practice. I'd see what Raybestos or other mfg(s) of friction materials has to say about it. 🏁