If no one has corrected you; In regard to the XP for defeating a dragon, the Rules Cyclopedia lists two XP values: one for just the dragon and one immediately below for 'XP with spells'. Great video, BTW.🙂
On a related note... Many years ago I moved to another town, and joined a local gaming group. The previous summer, they had played D&D in a room on the ground floor, the door open to the outside. The party had reached the cavern housing the dragon hoard - and a sleeping dragon. The thief crept closer and closer, making stealth rolls until he failed one. The DM: "The dragon open its eyes. It raises its head and opens its mouth and -". There was a whooshing roar from outside, and the guys almost jumped out of their skins. Then there was another roar. They flocked outside, and saw a hot air balloon passing just over the house, the burner making the noise. I've never heard of a more well-timed unexpected sound effect!
Great stuff! Those Elmore paintings were always so epic and evocative, especially the first three. If they didn't pull your imagination immediately into the scene, putting you right there with the character depicted, I don't know what you were doing playing the game.
The funny thing is that the small fry dragons that were included from day one were obviously meant to ensure that dragon encounters could be part of the game fairly early on. What I can only dub "dragon fanboys" then lobbied for them to be made more and more absurdly godlike in later editions, until it became self-defeating. In order to stand a chance against a dragon, you pretty much needed to be of a higher level than most campaigns ever progressed. Before "Dragflation" set in, they were mostly mid-level threats that could be skewed lower as needed.
I honestly don't know anything about the modern stuff concerning dragons but I thought the BECMI boxed sets did a good job of keeping dragons relevant and interesting. I'm sorry, but I don't think most 25th level Wizards with their standard spells and normal amount of magical itens would find an original gold dragon that challenging, but a large or huge would probably make a difference. The "Gemstone" ones could obviously be used for special campaigns of upper level characters and the rulers: well, killing the mortal form of one of them might be an adventure for a high level party all in itself. In other words, at least as concerns Becmi I don't really think dragons became too OP: after all the more powerful dragons were not only meant for the higher level characters but got less and less common in terms of encounters: mostly you'd still encounter the 'standard types' of the various sizes.
Great review. You did not include the danger of dragons as wondering monsters or the possibility of encountering multiple dragons. I had the pleasure of playing in a b/x campaign just as it transitioned to BECMI and we were doing outdoor travel on a small ship. That we had collectively purchased and had employed crew which we had equipped with the leftover magic items we had amassed, such as +1 swords and various potions. For some reason (probably due to the ease of the encounters up to that point and the ahips crew support which we used to our advantage) the DM decided that the next encounters would be triple in number appearing. That was great until he rolled up an encounter with blue dragons. He rolled 3 appearing, so we were presented with a flock of 9 blue dragons flying over to check out our wee ship. Everyone was freaking out and said that it was game over. I had my character climb up to the top of the mast and attempt friendly Conversation. The other players decided that my character was an idiot. I did not see the point in trying to fight. Flattered flock/flight leader with admiration and offered current life savings for my "lifelong wish" to be given a flight on the back of the dragon. Also offered any treasure that we get in the next adventure. Dice were rolled. Long story short the dragon was quite a noble and decent fellow and my character got to do a daylight flyover of the border of his homeland and the gnoll and orc lands, escorted by 8 other blue dragons. My character honored his bargain, and the blue dragons were a recurring thing in the campaign. For some reason the orcs and gnolls stopped their constant raids of my character's homeland.
What an awesome story! I love how one random event had an impact on the entire campaign. The way this game can send the plot in a direction no one can guess is why I love it so much. Thank you for sharing.
The players handbook with the wyrmling dragon strung up from a tree, a small treasure pile and a party that looked under level 5 ... that lit my imagination on fire
In the D&D novel 'Azure Bonds' (1988) they had (and since forgot) the option that you could challenge a dragon to a honourable duel where both sides make some rules to keep it relatively fair. The challenge was meant to be between dragons, but the story showed that the dragon had reasons to accept it from a human in this case. Of course the dragon in question was a evil red one had no intention of letting his meal get away. BTW, while it was clear the dragon would win the fight against a single human, she had easily decimated an entire band of adventurers just a day earlier, she didn't want to fight inside her lair and maybe damage her current prized possession, a halfling bard that amused her. So the dragon accepted the duel. In the end they barely escaped and had to bury the dragon, bringing the entrance of her lair down on her as she was coming after them. Digging herself out after a few days she was fuming, but what happened then is another part of the novel. In any case, I find the idea of dragons having a tradition of honourably challenging each other so that they don't kill each other over trivialities is interesting. P.S. the reason why the human even knew about the challenge was also revealed later.
I remember reading my Red Box set at ten years old and realizing that unleashing a dragon on a party would be a dick move. I remember working out the averages in my head and thinking that a 3rd level fighter was only going to have 12 or 15 HP on average, and a 6HD dragon was going to wipe them out in one breath, even if they made their save. It didn't seem very fair. Later, of course, I learned how clever players can be. Still, BECMI was my introduction to D&D and the dragons never struck me as weak. They seemed terrifying.
When fighting a dragon, winning initiative (or gaining a surprise round) becomes a huge deal, because of the HP-dependence of its breath weapon damage.
If you haven't, you should read the story by J.R.R. Tolkien: Farmer Giles of Ham. It is always what I think about when it comes to Subduing a dragon. Plus, it's a great, short story.
I run them as very rare, powerful, and smart adversaries. Sometimes they are tricksters and disguise themselves as humans for entertainment. Sometimes they are lesser gods that wish to be worshipped. Sometimes they are hording treasure in a deep cave, hidden behind layers of ancient fortresses.
Another outstanding video. The addition in the companion rules of large and huge dragons was a game changer, I remember us debating ways to avoid the breath weapon because it could literally one shot the party! Majestic indeed!
There was a kid who used dragons a lot when he DMed. His parents threw out a lot of his game stuff once and he replaced Moldvey for Mentzer. He took stuff like Silver Princess to heart so we'd get busted up by dragon riding studs every other game. Chased by half a dozen red dragons? Every other session that we weren't getting beat up by dragon rider studs. I was a bit more spare with their use. I also played T&T with a couple kids in the apartment complex across the way, so I was fond of venomous dragons that weren't color coded. Unlike becmi, I used drakes to make up for the seeming lack of full dragons. The D/C comic "Warlord" and the "Dewbacks" from Star Wars were big influences so large reptile mounts and the tamed drakes were familiar to players before they encountered a dragon. Between the companion material and Greenwood's modification of them, I think there is a better range for them to be the rip snorting terrors of legend. Anyway, thanks for the fine video man.
The first dragin I ran as a DM was in B5 Horror on the Hill. (Thanks for that video, by the way.) It went okay, except I might have fudged a dice roll or two. Fairly balanced, on the whole, since that dragon was a bit nerfed. Years later, I ran a homwbrew adventure to start a campaign in D&D 4.0 - not first-level, but still low-level - wih a young green dragon being the end-boss. And boy, that was HARD. We were so close to TPK several times. Honestly, I had to fudge tons of rolls to avoid that - and hastily decided the dragon was severely wounded (which did fit the story, but...). Dragons were made such tough monsters in the inbetween. After BECMI I feel that they were only ment to be endbosses of campaigns, not for a single adventure, CR's be damned.
I didn't use dragons in BECMI, since I would probably have wiped out any party with just one of them. My problem is that I tend to use intelligent foes in an intelligent way, so there would have been no chance that a flying boss would fight land bound creatures on the ground instead than from the air. It only really needs to land to eat the fallen. I used a bunch of them in AD&D 2nd Edition, though. They were even tougher than those in any other edition, with spells, powers, immunities, magic resistance, and so on. It was not the kind of creature you casually fight when you are not fully prepared for. And it could end pretty bad even if you were prepared. Had some other fights with dragons in later editions, but they were kinda underwhelming when compared to the 2nd Edition ones.
I recall Frank Mentzer stating somewhere the rule for dragon breath damage was supposed to be equal to the dragon's hit points and was not reduced when the dragon suffered damage. He said that is how he had played it. He is not sure why it was changed for B/X D&D and then carried over into BECMI D&D as damage equal to current hit points remaining for the dragon. I have dragons do their Hit Dice in damage with breath weapons. So a 10 HD red dragon does 10d8 points of damage.
@@Acroyear4 You are correct. There's no mention of damage to a dragon weakening is breath weapon in earlier sources like Monsters & Treasure (1974) or the first Basic set and Monster Manual (both 1977). It appears to be a "Moldvayism."
When playing the SSI gold box games Dnd games, I recalled that the dragonbreath damage was the Dragons max hp. Those games are based Ad&d, so not the same ruleset
Have you ever read the Dungeon Magazines with "Flame the red dragon"? #1 and, 23 I think is his return. Those are some fun examples of cool dragon encounters. There is another one with a smaller green dragon that runs a sort of pirate and bandit ring. Good stuff.
Great review of these wonderful creatures! BECMI has a few more dragons. There's the Night Dragons in Dragon Magazine #163, and the dragon spirits from #158 with the information on the "draconic cluster" of realms of the dragon rulers you mentioned in the Master and Immortal set. Unpublished before TSR went under but released for free on the Vaults of Pandius with permission from TSR is the awesome Orc's Head Peninsula book with the Vermillion Dragon Pyre. And the Champions of Mystara box gave us Synn the shadow dragon. Finally the AC 10 bestiary of giants and dragons has terrible art making all the dragons wyverns, but expanded rules for dragon spells with a (unique to my knowledge) very cool physical spell generator tool for dragons. Of them all the Dragon Spirits that guard the afterlife are the most terrifying as their breathweapon deals stat damage. So you at most have 18 points until death.
Must feel good when Frank says "Isa get's it..." I remember just how frightening Dragons became when BECMI solidified the basic rules and those Red Box Dragons got that bump in the later rules.
My RPG career started in 84 with the German system Das Schwarze Auge (English The Dark Eye). A few months later, I bought the Red Box, mostly for inspirational reasons. In general, we did not play BECMI much, but we still played it more than any other D&D editions combined. BECMI inspired new spells monsters etc, but it did not change how we worked with dragons, simply for one reason. Dragons always were and still are more of a "get out of here VERY quickly" Monster in the games I played in. I think I encountered about 4 or 5 since 84 and each time we were to afraid to do anything else but hide and hope or change directions due to pressing matters (aka RUN!).
Dragons seem way better in the becmi era this was an inspiring video, i play ad&d 2e/hyperborea 3 but i think you've convinced me that becmi is likely the best edition objectively despite my fondness for ad&d.
In 4e, the introduction dungeon has a dragon as its boss for level 1 characters, and it has a massive pool of HP but is very defeatable. That makes dragons less mythical to me, and a lot of players I ran through said dungeon did not like it. However, two brand new players did enjoy it but asked "is there always a dragon in this game?"
Thinking back, when I played BECMI between 85-89, the number of times encountering any Dragon wasn't much. I mean, on top of the state and abilities because of the size of them....I made players roll save vs. Paralysis of be struck with are or fear to begin with. Hoserule, if a PC fails either rooted to the floor (evens on a die), or flees (odds). Makes sense seeing as the party is up against a big scary thing that is like a gunship helicopter armed to the teeth. Being stunned by a Dragon attack: I don't recall how I handled that, however start with losing actions the following turn and then check to see if they shake it off after that (save vs paralysis, otherwise lose initiative until make the save).
Great review! I only ever had the first three box sets, so I either forgot or didn't know about the gem dragons until I was playing 2e. I certainly don't remember the Dragon Lords. I ran a two year (real time) campaign during COVID running through the Rise of Tiamat adventures in 5e. Very good fun trapping the party in a cottage, and when they open the door to see what the noise outside might be, a big Red blasts them with fiery breath. That put them on their back foot. Thanks for all of the work you put into these!
I am okay for there to be only a few, or even only one large dragon of each color in the whole world, they should be rare and virtually unstoppable but then rarely concrrned with human affairs or sleeping or maybe just legends to chase!
Recently, one swept down on us during travel. It sought magic and we managed to send it in the direction of a 'powerful' Magic-user - several miles away.
@@becmiberserker ...Not exactly, we sent him after the 2nd level Elf PC of another player - who was in the middle of some spell research in another city. 😅
I don't know the answer to the stun problem, but I do know that almost all stuns from monsters is 1d6 rounds in the RC. Bull shark is the exception with 3 round duration stuns.
On the issue of subdual. It was my understanding that the dragon that has been subdued is obligated to obey the subduer. IIRC, the dragons alignment becomes the same as the subduer and the bond lasts for the lifetime of the subduer. After the subduer dies the dragons reverts back to it's original alignment and leaves. It's a bit head scratching. Others have worked to fill in the blanks on why that is but as far as I can tell that was all outside the printed books.
Had a dragon slayer campaign. The evil dragons were becoming very active and trying to bring about a new age of draconic rule with Tiamat on the material plane. This was early days of PF1E, when dnd went to 4e. The players had successfully slain a few chromatic young adult dragons and were getting recognition as dragon slayers. They were invited to meet with a king and be awarded for their good deeds. One thing they didn't know was they'd also meet with a metallic dragon enclave. The gold dragon was the one proceeding over the meeting and was stern with them, not liking that they've slain dragons, even though they were evil dragons actively harming the people. The adamant dragon wanted to slay them before they started slaying more dragons, it believed that the party would eventually turn to go after all dragons. The silver dragon had a very cold view of them and the city and towns he protected did not welcome the party. The towns of the solver dragon didn't run them out but they charged 500 gold for a cheap meal and 10,000 gold for a night's stay. Just entering into their lands was 1,000 gold tax. It shocked them and made them very aware that one small step out of line was excuse enough for the good dragons to come down harshly on these heroes of the people because they could slay dragons.
@@becmiberserker you're welcome. Even heroes should be wary of good dragons as they can be crossed when you do significant things that can be perceived as a threat to the good dragons such as slaying an evil dragon.
I really like the idea of subdual rules. it makes fighting a dragon more deadly with the breath weapon not decreasing, and requires it to be done by hand rather then by subterfuge or planned spells, really giving the sense that someone has dominated the dragon’s will head on and that has some kind of mystical compulsion for the dragon. Sounds like a great feat for a fighter or other canny martial to have done, and an even greater reward in the fealty of a dragon. I cant express how much that itches a fighter end goal fantasy that is often seems neglected. while a high level wizard gets to have a tower and research thier own great spells, and a thief collects connections throughout the underworld having a hand in everything, the fighter can go out and gain the fealty of powerful creatures through his might. having a dragon next to your throne to show just what calibur of person you are dealing with. its metal. though on a mechanical point, i wonder how you would deal with both subdual damage and regular damage? given that you might have a magic user or archer in the party. two separate HP’s I guess?
Stun rules are covered in the rules Cyclopedia, page 150. There it says the length of the stun is detailed in the attack description. The wing stun is in the rules Cyclopedia, page 170 and it does not describe the length of the stun. I think they made a mistake.
Ever play those old Capcom Arcade D&D beat 'em up games? ( "Tower of Doom" or "Shadow Over Mystara" ) You face several Dragons which serve as boss fights on certain stages. The green and black Dragons are both pretty tough, but when you encounter a dreaded Red Dragon in either game, you're told that it's sleeping in its lair and a text box gives you several chances to second guess yourself and turn back. Of course, when you do inevitably step into the Red Dragons' caves, you are likely to be instantly incinerated by the breath weapons, only to discover that you're fighting a greater wyrm who fills the entire screen and can crush you flat with its foreclaws alone. And, the final boss of 'Shadow Over Mystara' is some sort of Dragon demigod who takes the form of a human sorceress named "Synn".
@@thomriley1036 Yup. Great fun. I’ve got a computer game museum near me that has an arcade machine with them all loaded on. Such a trip to play them again.
Synn is a shadow dragon, but in the game it wouldnt look good to have a black dragon on a black background so she is a red dragon in the game, there are no demigods in mystara 🤓
Dragons were almost unusable in a way, in the sense that the chance to one-shot characters was very high! When I started playing AD&D 2e, I was shocked to see the breath weapon changed to a dX damage one.
Yeah, it was strange to see the damage dice, but instead of being able to use the breath only three times per day, they could use it every three rounds instead, at will. That was a real game changer.
Dragons won't last long enough to use a breath weapon twice if the 2e players had built their characters properly. That is discounting incompetence of course.
@@sebbonxxsebbon6824 You know that that also applies to DMs, right? If they have built their dragon encounter well, and they don't use the creatures as static morons, players would have to survive far more than just two breaths in that dragon encounter. For example, try fending off an old black dragon while you are bogged down in a swamp and that thing is circling in the air above you, just out of reach from most of your dangerous ranged attacks, swooping in only when its breath is ready or it sees a chance for an easy snatch attack, obviously on the casters first. In the mean time, it can pester you with spells too. And this should be an easy one among the dragons. Every time I used a 2nd edition dragon in an encounter, it was either a close call victory, a disastrous retreat, or a complete wipe for the party. Except for one incredibly lucky fight, in which literally everything went wrong for the beast, my players ended always in shambles and nearly depleted after facing a dragon, when they managed to actually survive.
@@sebbonxxsebbon6824 You know that that also applies to DMs, right? If they have built their dragon encounter well, and they don't use the creatures as static morons, players would have to survive far more than just two breaths in that dragon encounter. For example, try fending off an old black dragon while you are bogged down in a swamp and that thing is circling in the air above you, just out of reach from most of your dangerous ranged attacks, swooping in only when its breath is ready or it sees a chance for an easy snatch attack, obviously on the casters first. In the mean time, it can pester you with spells too. And this should be an easy one among the dragons. Every time I used a 2nd edition dragon in an encounter, it was either a close call victory, a disastrous retreat, or a complete wipe for the party. Except for one incredibly lucky fight, in which literally everything went wrong for the beast, my players ended always in shambles and nearly depleted after facing a dragon, when they managed to actually survive.
@@sebbonxxsebbon6824 You know that that also applies to DMs, right? If they have built their dragon encounter well, and they don't use the creatures as static morons, players would have to survive far more than just two breaths in that dragon encounter. For example, try fending off an old black dragon while you are bogged down in a swamp and that thing is circling in the air above you, just out of reach from most of your dangerous ranged attacks, swooping in only when its breath is ready or it sees a chance for an easy snatch attack, obviously on the casters first. In the mean time, it can pester you with spells too. And this should be an easy one among the dragons. Every time I used a 2nd edition dragon in an encounter, it was either a close call victory, a disastrous retreat, or a complete wipe for the party. Except for one incredibly lucky fight, in which literally everything went wrong for the beast, my players ended always in shambles and nearly depleted after facing a dragon, when they managed to actually survive.
Have you considered doing a run through of TSR9097 Ghost of Lion Castle? It is a SOLO adventure for BASIC. I think that you would have a blast doing it and I think it would be more educational and entertaining than going through KEEP with a max level character.
A lot of interesting stuff here. For one, it wasn't supposed that a flying creature could stop mid-flight, use all of its attacks at one creature then fly off again? Two, back in part of 2e dragons had more than a bite and claw attack? Why is it for the last ten years we've been having to home brew those in 5e?
Subduing a Dragon I admit, these rules seemed a bit nonsensical to me from the start. I can get the idea behind it, but if I am a Chaotic Red Dragon and these idiots have been patting me with the flats of their blades and now they are barely holding on while I am still at full HP, why would I stop fighting? Instead, I think I would change it so that once the dragon is brought to below 1/4th of its hit points, or something like that, it might try to surrender (or flee) if the offer is extended to it. Even a non-speaking dragon might indicate a willingness to surrender via body language. Obviously, subject to just how strong the party still appears to the dragon, and what the party's demands are. Something relatively minor ("let us pass") might be a swift agreement ("why didn't you just ask?"), whereas the loss of its hoard and its freedom might be behind a good reaction roll. The difference is that at this case, continuing to fight is actively putting the dragon's own life in danger, so even a chaotic dragon would be more willing to find a solution that doesn't risk its precious, precious life further.
I dunno...I think this is one of those things where I forgo common sense and apply a bit of light fantasy, I mean, it is pretty cool to have a dragon and subdual is the incentive to go and get one. You could argue it's a weird bit of noble evolutionary behaviour that is hard-wired into dragons - if they're bested, they serve. It's what they do. That's how I'd rationalise it, I think.
If no one has corrected you; In regard to the XP for defeating a dragon, the Rules Cyclopedia lists two XP values: one for just the dragon and one immediately below for 'XP with spells'. Great video, BTW.🙂
@@echoarty8123 Lol! Right before my eyes. I must have gone word-blind. Thanks for the info
No sweat. Keep doing the great work 👍
On a related note... Many years ago I moved to another town, and joined a local gaming group. The previous summer, they had played D&D in a room on the ground floor, the door open to the outside. The party had reached the cavern housing the dragon hoard - and a sleeping dragon. The thief crept closer and closer, making stealth rolls until he failed one. The DM: "The dragon open its eyes. It raises its head and opens its mouth and -". There was a whooshing roar from outside, and the guys almost jumped out of their skins. Then there was another roar. They flocked outside, and saw a hot air balloon passing just over the house, the burner making the noise. I've never heard of a more well-timed unexpected sound effect!
Awesomeness!!
Great stuff! Those Elmore paintings were always so epic and evocative, especially the first three. If they didn't pull your imagination immediately into the scene, putting you right there with the character depicted, I don't know what you were doing playing the game.
The funny thing is that the small fry dragons that were included from day one were obviously meant to ensure that dragon encounters could be part of the game fairly early on. What I can only dub "dragon fanboys" then lobbied for them to be made more and more absurdly godlike in later editions, until it became self-defeating. In order to stand a chance against a dragon, you pretty much needed to be of a higher level than most campaigns ever progressed. Before "Dragflation" set in, they were mostly mid-level threats that could be skewed lower as needed.
I honestly don't know anything about the modern stuff concerning dragons but I thought the BECMI boxed sets did a good job of keeping dragons relevant and interesting. I'm sorry, but I don't think most 25th level Wizards with their standard spells and normal amount of magical itens would find an original gold dragon that challenging, but a large or huge would probably make a difference. The "Gemstone" ones could obviously be used for special campaigns of upper level characters and the rulers: well, killing the mortal form of one of them might be an adventure for a high level party all in itself. In other words, at least as concerns Becmi I don't really think dragons became too OP: after all the more powerful dragons were not only meant for the higher level characters but got less and less common in terms of encounters: mostly you'd still encounter the 'standard types' of the various sizes.
Great review. You did not include the danger of dragons as wondering monsters or the possibility of encountering multiple dragons.
I had the pleasure of playing in a b/x campaign just as it transitioned to BECMI and we were doing outdoor travel on a small ship.
That we had collectively purchased and had employed crew which we had equipped with the leftover magic items we had amassed, such as +1 swords and various potions.
For some reason (probably due to the ease of the encounters up to that point and the ahips crew support which we used to our advantage) the DM decided that the next encounters would be triple in number appearing. That was great until he rolled up an encounter with blue dragons. He rolled 3 appearing, so we were presented with a flock of 9 blue dragons flying over to check out our wee ship.
Everyone was freaking out and said that it was game over.
I had my character climb up to the top of the mast and attempt friendly Conversation.
The other players decided that my character was an idiot.
I did not see the point in trying to fight.
Flattered flock/flight leader with admiration and offered current life savings for my "lifelong wish" to be given a flight on the back of the dragon.
Also offered any treasure that we get in the next adventure. Dice were rolled. Long story short the dragon was quite a noble and decent fellow and my character got to do a daylight flyover of the border of his homeland and the gnoll and orc lands, escorted by 8 other blue dragons.
My character honored his bargain, and the blue dragons were a recurring thing in the campaign.
For some reason the orcs and gnolls stopped their constant raids of my character's homeland.
What an awesome story! I love how one random event had an impact on the entire campaign. The way this game can send the plot in a direction no one can guess is why I love it so much. Thank you for sharing.
The players handbook with the wyrmling dragon strung up from a tree, a small treasure pile and a party that looked under level 5 ... that lit my imagination on fire
@@jeffreywitty3088 Ooh I think that’s in the Expert rules. I know exactly the feeling you mean. Love that pic!
In the D&D novel 'Azure Bonds' (1988) they had (and since forgot) the option that you could challenge a dragon to a honourable duel where both sides make some rules to keep it relatively fair. The challenge was meant to be between dragons, but the story showed that the dragon had reasons to accept it from a human in this case. Of course the dragon in question was a evil red one had no intention of letting his meal get away.
BTW, while it was clear the dragon would win the fight against a single human, she had easily decimated an entire band of adventurers just a day earlier, she didn't want to fight inside her lair and maybe damage her current prized possession, a halfling bard that amused her. So the dragon accepted the duel.
In the end they barely escaped and had to bury the dragon, bringing the entrance of her lair down on her as she was coming after them. Digging herself out after a few days she was fuming, but what happened then is another part of the novel.
In any case, I find the idea of dragons having a tradition of honourably challenging each other so that they don't kill each other over trivialities is interesting.
P.S. the reason why the human even knew about the challenge was also revealed later.
I remember reading my Red Box set at ten years old and realizing that unleashing a dragon on a party would be a dick move. I remember working out the averages in my head and thinking that a 3rd level fighter was only going to have 12 or 15 HP on average, and a 6HD dragon was going to wipe them out in one breath, even if they made their save. It didn't seem very fair.
Later, of course, I learned how clever players can be. Still, BECMI was my introduction to D&D and the dragons never struck me as weak. They seemed terrifying.
When fighting a dragon, winning initiative (or gaining a surprise round) becomes a huge deal, because of the HP-dependence of its breath weapon damage.
And having hirelings to help soak up that damage
@@m.a.packer5450 Absolutely max out your retainer count! 😂 Although that wouldn't help if you're all caught up in the AoE 😓
If you haven't, you should read the story by J.R.R. Tolkien: Farmer Giles of Ham. It is always what I think about when it comes to Subduing a dragon. Plus, it's a great, short story.
Great video, it makes me really want to give becmi a try.
I run them as very rare, powerful, and smart adversaries. Sometimes they are tricksters and disguise themselves as humans for entertainment. Sometimes they are lesser gods that wish to be worshipped. Sometimes they are hording treasure in a deep cave, hidden behind layers of ancient fortresses.
Another outstanding video. The addition in the companion rules of large and huge dragons was a game changer, I remember us debating ways to avoid the breath weapon because it could literally one shot the party! Majestic indeed!
There was a kid who used dragons a lot when he DMed. His parents threw out a lot of his game stuff once and he replaced Moldvey for Mentzer. He took stuff like Silver Princess to heart so we'd get busted up by dragon riding studs every other game. Chased by half a dozen red dragons? Every other session that we weren't getting beat up by dragon rider studs.
I was a bit more spare with their use. I also played T&T with a couple kids in the apartment complex across the way, so I was fond of venomous dragons that weren't color coded. Unlike becmi, I used drakes to make up for the seeming lack of full dragons. The D/C comic "Warlord" and the "Dewbacks" from Star Wars were big influences so large reptile mounts and the tamed drakes were familiar to players before they encountered a dragon.
Between the companion material and Greenwood's modification of them, I think there is a better range for them to be the rip snorting terrors of legend.
Anyway, thanks for the fine video man.
@@PvtSchlock Nice story. Thanks. ☺️
The first dragin I ran as a DM was in B5 Horror on the Hill. (Thanks for that video, by the way.) It went okay, except I might have fudged a dice roll or two. Fairly balanced, on the whole, since that dragon was a bit nerfed.
Years later, I ran a homwbrew adventure to start a campaign in D&D 4.0 - not first-level, but still low-level - wih a young green dragon being the end-boss. And boy, that was HARD. We were so close to TPK several times. Honestly, I had to fudge tons of rolls to avoid that - and hastily decided the dragon was severely wounded (which did fit the story, but...).
Dragons were made such tough monsters in the inbetween. After BECMI I feel that they were only ment to be endbosses of campaigns, not for a single adventure, CR's be damned.
BECMI will always be my favorite D&D ttrpg. I enjoyed it's mix of simplicity and expansive rules. I do also have the D&D Encyclopedia.
I didn't use dragons in BECMI, since I would probably have wiped out any party with just one of them. My problem is that I tend to use intelligent foes in an intelligent way, so there would have been no chance that a flying boss would fight land bound creatures on the ground instead than from the air. It only really needs to land to eat the fallen.
I used a bunch of them in AD&D 2nd Edition, though. They were even tougher than those in any other edition, with spells, powers, immunities, magic resistance, and so on. It was not the kind of creature you casually fight when you are not fully prepared for. And it could end pretty bad even if you were prepared.
Had some other fights with dragons in later editions, but they were kinda underwhelming when compared to the 2nd Edition ones.
I recall Frank Mentzer stating somewhere the rule for dragon breath damage was supposed to be equal to the dragon's hit points and was not reduced when the dragon suffered damage. He said that is how he had played it. He is not sure why it was changed for B/X D&D and then carried over into BECMI D&D as damage equal to current hit points remaining for the dragon.
I have dragons do their Hit Dice in damage with breath weapons. So a 10 HD red dragon does 10d8 points of damage.
@@Acroyear4 You are correct. There's no mention of damage to a dragon weakening is breath weapon in earlier sources like Monsters & Treasure (1974) or the first Basic set and Monster Manual (both 1977). It appears to be a "Moldvayism."
When playing the SSI gold box games Dnd games, I recalled that the dragonbreath damage was the Dragons max hp. Those games are based Ad&d, so not the same ruleset
Gemstone Dragon breath
I follow the phrasing in the Master Set (emphasis mine):
Cold OR Crystal = pick one effect
Fire AND Melt = both effects at once
Have you ever read the Dungeon Magazines with "Flame the red dragon"? #1 and, 23 I think is his return. Those are some fun examples of cool dragon encounters. There is another one with a smaller green dragon that runs a sort of pirate and bandit ring. Good stuff.
@@xaxzander4633 A long time ago. Thanks for reminding me.
Great review of these wonderful creatures!
BECMI has a few more dragons. There's the Night Dragons in Dragon Magazine #163, and the dragon spirits from #158 with the information on the "draconic cluster" of realms of the dragon rulers you mentioned in the Master and Immortal set. Unpublished before TSR went under but released for free on the Vaults of Pandius with permission from TSR is the awesome Orc's Head Peninsula book with the Vermillion Dragon Pyre. And the Champions of Mystara box gave us Synn the shadow dragon. Finally the AC 10 bestiary of giants and dragons has terrible art making all the dragons wyverns, but expanded rules for dragon spells with a (unique to my knowledge) very cool physical spell generator tool for dragons. Of them all the Dragon Spirits that guard the afterlife are the most terrifying as their breathweapon deals stat damage. So you at most have 18 points until death.
@@gavinruneblade Indeed. I was going to give an honourable mention to the undead dragon from AC9 but it went out of my head. 🙂
@@becmiberserker Yes that's right, I forgot the undead dragon. And the Drolem too!
Must feel good when Frank says "Isa get's it..."
I remember just how frightening Dragons became when BECMI solidified the basic rules and those Red Box Dragons got that bump in the later rules.
@@andrewtomlinson5237 Had to check what you meant and go to FB. I am positively buzzing! ☺️
Basic unarmed stun effect is one round, Pg 111 RC. Not sure how to apply it to a dragon though!
I would have it a number of rounds equal to the save penalty OR equal to the margin of failure, how much you failed the save by.
Another great video. I’m more partial to 2e Dragons myself, but I remember having a good deal of fun with these before I switched over.
My RPG career started in 84 with the German system Das Schwarze Auge (English The Dark Eye). A few months later, I bought the Red Box, mostly for inspirational reasons. In general, we did not play BECMI much, but we still played it more than any other D&D editions combined.
BECMI inspired new spells monsters etc, but it did not change how we worked with dragons, simply for one reason. Dragons always were and still are more of a "get out of here VERY quickly" Monster in the games I played in. I think I encountered about 4 or 5 since 84 and each time we were to afraid to do anything else but hide and hope or change directions due to pressing matters (aka RUN!).
@@murgel2006 Thanks for the story. ☺️
I did like the power increase in 2nd edition, along with the giants.
Dragons seem way better in the becmi era this was an inspiring video, i play ad&d 2e/hyperborea 3 but i think you've convinced me that becmi is likely the best edition objectively despite my fondness for ad&d.
@@INCIESSE Objective achieved! Seriously, thanks. ☺️
Awesome video! Thank you!
Cool video, thanks!
In 4e, the introduction dungeon has a dragon as its boss for level 1 characters, and it has a massive pool of HP but is very defeatable. That makes dragons less mythical to me, and a lot of players I ran through said dungeon did not like it. However, two brand new players did enjoy it but asked "is there always a dragon in this game?"
Great Content, thanks for the research and curation. Cheers!
Great video! Thanks, B!
Thinking back, when I played BECMI between 85-89, the number of times encountering any Dragon wasn't much. I mean, on top of the state and abilities because of the size of them....I made players roll save vs. Paralysis of be struck with are or fear to begin with.
Hoserule, if a PC fails either rooted to the floor (evens on a die), or flees (odds). Makes sense seeing as the party is up against a big scary thing that is like a gunship helicopter armed to the teeth.
Being stunned by a Dragon attack: I don't recall how I handled that, however start with losing actions the following turn and then check to see if they shake it off after that (save vs paralysis, otherwise lose initiative until make the save).
Great review! I only ever had the first three box sets, so I either forgot or didn't know about the gem dragons until I was playing 2e. I certainly don't remember the Dragon Lords. I ran a two year (real time) campaign during COVID running through the Rise of Tiamat adventures in 5e. Very good fun trapping the party in a cottage, and when they open the door to see what the noise outside might be, a big Red blasts them with fiery breath. That put them on their back foot. Thanks for all of the work you put into these!
@@erictiso9315 You’re welcome ☺️
I believe that if the dragon can cast spells that adds an asterisk to it's entry and giving it more XP for killing/subdual.
I am okay for there to be only a few, or even only one large dragon of each color in the whole world, they should be rare and virtually unstoppable but then rarely concrrned with human affairs or sleeping or maybe just legends to chase!
Great video BB! I am looking forward to your upcoming videos. HAPPY NEW YEAR!
@@Rashman101 HNY to you too!
Excellent. Happy New year
Same to you!
Recently, one swept down on us during travel.
It sought magic and we managed to send it in the direction of a 'powerful' Magic-user - several miles away.
@@AuthoritativeNewsNetwork Deliberately sending a dragon on a wild goose chase? I’d be watching the skies… ☺️
@@becmiberserker ...Not exactly, we sent him after the 2nd level Elf PC of another player - who was in the middle of some spell research in another city. 😅
@ Ha ha! I love it!
I don't know the answer to the stun problem, but I do know that almost all stuns from monsters is 1d6 rounds in the RC. Bull shark is the exception with 3 round duration stuns.
Good stuff.
On the issue of subdual. It was my understanding that the dragon that has been subdued is obligated to obey the subduer. IIRC, the dragons alignment becomes the same as the subduer and the bond lasts for the lifetime of the subduer. After the subduer dies the dragons reverts back to it's original alignment and leaves. It's a bit head scratching. Others have worked to fill in the blanks on why that is but as far as I can tell that was all outside the printed books.
Had a dragon slayer campaign. The evil dragons were becoming very active and trying to bring about a new age of draconic rule with Tiamat on the material plane. This was early days of PF1E, when dnd went to 4e. The players had successfully slain a few chromatic young adult dragons and were getting recognition as dragon slayers. They were invited to meet with a king and be awarded for their good deeds. One thing they didn't know was they'd also meet with a metallic dragon enclave. The gold dragon was the one proceeding over the meeting and was stern with them, not liking that they've slain dragons, even though they were evil dragons actively harming the people. The adamant dragon wanted to slay them before they started slaying more dragons, it believed that the party would eventually turn to go after all dragons. The silver dragon had a very cold view of them and the city and towns he protected did not welcome the party. The towns of the solver dragon didn't run them out but they charged 500 gold for a cheap meal and 10,000 gold for a night's stay. Just entering into their lands was 1,000 gold tax. It shocked them and made them very aware that one small step out of line was excuse enough for the good dragons to come down harshly on these heroes of the people because they could slay dragons.
Thanks for sharing!
@@becmiberserker you're welcome. Even heroes should be wary of good dragons as they can be crossed when you do significant things that can be perceived as a threat to the good dragons such as slaying an evil dragon.
I really like the idea of subdual rules. it makes fighting a dragon more deadly with the breath weapon not decreasing, and requires it to be done by hand rather then by subterfuge or planned spells, really giving the sense that someone has dominated the dragon’s will head on and that has some kind of mystical compulsion for the dragon.
Sounds like a great feat for a fighter or other canny martial to have done, and an even greater reward in the fealty of a dragon. I cant express how much that itches a fighter end goal fantasy that is often seems neglected. while a high level wizard gets to have a tower and research thier own great spells, and a thief collects connections throughout the underworld having a hand in everything, the fighter can go out and gain the fealty of powerful creatures through his might. having a dragon next to your throne to show just what calibur of person you are dealing with. its metal.
though on a mechanical point, i wonder how you would deal with both subdual damage and regular damage? given that you might have a magic user or archer in the party. two separate HP’s I guess?
@@midshipman8654 Oh, man. Metal is exactly what it is! 🤘
Stun rules are covered in the rules Cyclopedia, page 150. There it says the length of the stun is detailed in the attack description. The wing stun is in the rules Cyclopedia, page 170 and it does not describe the length of the stun. I think they made a mistake.
Great video!
Good video!
Thanks!
Great video! IMO, AD&D 2nd Edition does the best job with dragons of all the different versions. But BECMI is no slouch!
A lot of comments on here agreeing with you. 2nd edition dragons were pretty cool. Someone should start a "2nd Edition Berserker" channel. :)
Hallelujah!
I had Basic back in 1981....might want to think about that.
Ever play those old Capcom Arcade D&D beat 'em up games?
( "Tower of Doom" or "Shadow Over Mystara" )
You face several Dragons which serve as boss fights on certain stages. The green and black Dragons are both pretty tough, but when you encounter a dreaded Red Dragon in either game, you're told that it's sleeping in its lair and a text box gives you several chances to second guess yourself and turn back.
Of course, when you do inevitably step into the Red Dragons' caves, you are likely to be instantly incinerated by the breath weapons, only to discover that you're fighting a greater wyrm who fills the entire screen and can crush you flat with its foreclaws alone.
And, the final boss of 'Shadow Over Mystara' is some sort of Dragon demigod who takes the form of a human sorceress named "Synn".
@@thomriley1036 Yup. Great fun. I’ve got a computer game museum near me that has an arcade machine with them all loaded on. Such a trip to play them again.
Synn is a shadow dragon, but in the game it wouldnt look good to have a black dragon on a black background so she is a red dragon in the game, there are no demigods in mystara 🤓
It's amazing how many of these mechanics made it into Ultima Online in some form...
A lot of computer games used the ideas. The words were copyrighted but my new ideas were freely shared.
Dragons were almost unusable in a way, in the sense that the chance to one-shot characters was very high! When I started playing AD&D 2e, I was shocked to see the breath weapon changed to a dX damage one.
Yeah, it was strange to see the damage dice, but instead of being able to use the breath only three times per day, they could use it every three rounds instead, at will. That was a real game changer.
Dragons won't last long enough to use a breath weapon twice if the 2e players had built their characters properly. That is discounting incompetence of course.
@@sebbonxxsebbon6824 You know that that also applies to DMs, right? If they have built their dragon encounter well, and they don't use the creatures as static morons, players would have to survive far more than just two breaths in that dragon encounter.
For example, try fending off an old black dragon while you are bogged down in a swamp and that thing is circling in the air above you, just out of reach from most of your dangerous ranged attacks, swooping in only when its breath is ready or it sees a chance for an easy snatch attack, obviously on the casters first. In the mean time, it can pester you with spells too.
And this should be an easy one among the dragons.
Every time I used a 2nd edition dragon in an encounter, it was either a close call victory, a disastrous retreat, or a complete wipe for the party. Except for one incredibly lucky fight, in which literally everything went wrong for the beast, my players ended always in shambles and nearly depleted after facing a dragon, when they managed to actually survive.
@@sebbonxxsebbon6824 You know that that also applies to DMs, right? If they have built their dragon encounter well, and they don't use the creatures as static morons, players would have to survive far more than just two breaths in that dragon encounter.
For example, try fending off an old black dragon while you are bogged down in a swamp and that thing is circling in the air above you, just out of reach from most of your dangerous ranged attacks, swooping in only when its breath is ready or it sees a chance for an easy snatch attack, obviously on the casters first. In the mean time, it can pester you with spells too.
And this should be an easy one among the dragons.
Every time I used a 2nd edition dragon in an encounter, it was either a close call victory, a disastrous retreat, or a complete wipe for the party. Except for one incredibly lucky fight, in which literally everything went wrong for the beast, my players ended always in shambles and nearly depleted after facing a dragon, when they managed to actually survive.
@@sebbonxxsebbon6824 You know that that also applies to DMs, right? If they have built their dragon encounter well, and they don't use the creatures as static morons, players would have to survive far more than just two breaths in that dragon encounter.
For example, try fending off an old black dragon while you are bogged down in a swamp and that thing is circling in the air above you, just out of reach from most of your dangerous ranged attacks, swooping in only when its breath is ready or it sees a chance for an easy snatch attack, obviously on the casters first. In the mean time, it can pester you with spells too.
And this should be an easy one among the dragons.
Every time I used a 2nd edition dragon in an encounter, it was either a close call victory, a disastrous retreat, or a complete wipe for the party. Except for one incredibly lucky fight, in which literally everything went wrong for the beast, my players ended always in shambles and nearly depleted after facing a dragon, when they managed to actually survive.
Have you considered doing a run through of TSR9097 Ghost of Lion Castle? It is a SOLO adventure for BASIC. I think that you would have a blast doing it and I think it would be more educational and entertaining than going through KEEP with a max level character.
Have you ever got a party into the Immortal levels (or hierarch-reincarnation) to interact with the Dragon Rulers?
@@myownlittlworld9427 I have had players reach immortality but I didn’t get to use the Dragon Rulers.
Run away!
A lot of interesting stuff here. For one, it wasn't supposed that a flying creature could stop mid-flight, use all of its attacks at one creature then fly off again? Two, back in part of 2e dragons had more than a bite and claw attack? Why is it for the last ten years we've been having to home brew those in 5e?
Well, it is called Dungeons and Dragons, after all.
Here There Be Dragons
If you mate a blue, a green, and a red dragon, do you get a white dragon?
Subduing a Dragon
I admit, these rules seemed a bit nonsensical to me from the start. I can get the idea behind it, but if I am a Chaotic Red Dragon and these idiots have been patting me with the flats of their blades and now they are barely holding on while I am still at full HP, why would I stop fighting?
Instead, I think I would change it so that once the dragon is brought to below 1/4th of its hit points, or something like that, it might try to surrender (or flee) if the offer is extended to it. Even a non-speaking dragon might indicate a willingness to surrender via body language. Obviously, subject to just how strong the party still appears to the dragon, and what the party's demands are. Something relatively minor ("let us pass") might be a swift agreement ("why didn't you just ask?"), whereas the loss of its hoard and its freedom might be behind a good reaction roll.
The difference is that at this case, continuing to fight is actively putting the dragon's own life in danger, so even a chaotic dragon would be more willing to find a solution that doesn't risk its precious, precious life further.
I dunno...I think this is one of those things where I forgo common sense and apply a bit of light fantasy, I mean, it is pretty cool to have a dragon and subdual is the incentive to go and get one. You could argue it's a weird bit of noble evolutionary behaviour that is hard-wired into dragons - if they're bested, they serve. It's what they do. That's how I'd rationalise it, I think.
@becmiberserker Fair enough. :)
i loved becmi and ad&d but dragons werent Dragons until 3rd edition
Wait a minute...
You mean to tell me there are Dungeons AND Dragons in this game? Get out of Town!
@@NotTheWheel Apparently so!
Who knew?!
A comment for the numbers brother
Great video!
Glad you enjoyed it