One of my solutions to this is almost exclusively playing boardwipes that get around mass board protection. Cards like toxic deluge and tragic arrogance get around so many more protection spells because the don’t say destroy and I feel like that’s pretty necessary right now.
Tragic Arrogance is such a great card. Yes, farewell is a clean sweep, but if you play into it well I like Tragic Arrogance more. It can lead to huge swings.
I agree but the crappy part is we don't wanna have to put blue in every deck. Granted there are non-blue counterspells, however they're few in number and usually restricted.
There is another approach to this issue but it depends on the colors you are playing. Instead of playing board wipes, play the best single target removal spells you can afford because there are usually just 1-2 problematic permanents on the table and the rest are fodder. This allows you to deal with a player without drawing hate from the rest of the table. You can also use cards that allow you to survive the winning turn of a player or even allow you to turn them against the rest of the table, like Illusionist's Gambit. Furthermore, cards like Rakdos Charm or Stronghold Discipline allow you to take out an opponent who has overextended. Generally speaking, instead of trying to tackle the problem head on, you can try a different approach. Be patient and use cards only against threats that directly affect you and don't bother dealing with cards that aren't immediately threatening.
You could also play more must answer threats paired with tons of card advantage to keep the threats flowing to advance your own gameplan, backed up with some of your own protection spells. Overloading on removal puts you in a place where you’re just playing a reactive game and not advancing your own plan. In other words just win.
It depends on your commander. I am using Urza Chief Artficier and all I do is the early game is blow up the board. Late game I start to build my construct army.
Removal engines are the way to go. My favorite deck is my cycling deck where Archfiend of Ifnir is a powerhouse. It gets around all the problems pretty nice
for sure, almost all my decks can get wins with or are entirely built around removal engines. Great way to get rid of permanents or spells if you dont need to spend too many cards for them.
one option i have been liking more recently is edict effects- ones like soul shatter get around protection like ward and can be a nice 2 or 3 for 1 which acts as if you are running more removal spells than you are
I’ve gone the other route of putting more protections in my deck and fewer removals. If you have the biggest army on the board, it doesn’t make sense to wipe the board or use spot removal when you can just overwhelm everyone else. One sided removals are nice but I rather protect my board at all cost.
Yeah i think the fastest and strongest your deck is the more you need protection than removal because it's others that will have to find removal against you
Ward is like glitter It's everywhere and you can't clean it up ...The dream play is to hit a Flare of Fortitude with a Mana Tithe I would say that -x/-x wipes are among the best ones. Only phasing and exile until end of turn can save you from those, plus they can sometimes be used to try and give an advantage to yourself. Don't forget about Black Sun's Zenith or Mutilate and Languish - the former puts -1 counters, so even the stuff you can't afford to kill is a lot smaller
I have made a personal rule to never include even one board wipe. I just do not find them fun and would rather have cards in my decks that I enjoy and sticking to spot removal.
I've actually started doing the opposite and run less removal as I started playing witha new play group and noted that they play a lot of removal so if I used removal to remove something. Typically, I would become a target so I replaced my removal with protection spells. And i've actually done a lot better because i'm not so much a target anymore who is removing stuff plus I'm not devoting my manna to removing and keeping my stuff safe. I'm just playing my stuff and keeping it safe
My plsygroup runs about 15-20 pieces of interaction each. It makes me hate my life so the only way to win is to be loaded up with protection. They can deal with eachother on removal/interaction lol
I have started to consider if I should run some spell copy effects in red sans blue decks to push my boardwipes through and see how often I can resolve the copy before an opponent's protection spell. It might work as long as I'm not losing virtual card advantage via boardstate, but it still doesn't get past indestructible. I saw another comment saying to use removal engines, and I've started to do that more. You can force them to use up their protection spells or remove your engine, either way I think you have to try to beat them at card advantage.
Between protection spells farewell and powercreep in general what I’ve noticed is if your board wiping on your turn with no follow up there’s more often than not someone who can recover way faster than you after the wipe and capitalize on the clear board. And if your not wiping everything but lands your definitely leaving behind something that will facilitate that recovery more often than not I see that play pattern over the player who wipes comes out ahead by their next turn unless it’s one side like a plague wind or rift I’ve found I really like route for having an instant wipe while behind and being able to recover first
That has always been the problem with boardwipes: you invest a card and mana and the best you can achieve is to get back to board state parity, while still having the investment of the wipe itself. It's why I stopped playing boardwipes altogether unless they are part of the deck's basic tech (like in Zurgo). The trick is to build and play in way that you don't get far enough behind that a boardwipe starts to appear attractive.
@@Volkbrecht I also find that less interaction and more synergy redundant pieces are helpful with outracing boardwipes or being able to recover faster after someone else’s and the only interaction I’ll play is a few counterspells or protection spells not like none but bare minimal to pop a stax piece or something that actively stops me or pushes their wins like even dogs tend to run better than a wipe cuz you can stop an alpha strike and now your other OPPs can punish the player who tried and left himself wide open to crack back
There's a reason i dont run any boardwipes that say destroy or damage. If we've gotten to "need a board wipe" stage, you're getting forced sacrifice, -x/-x, rifts, or exiles because you've made lesser, kinder options unusable.
I love the new Duskmourn card 'Nowhere to Run'. Flash in a enchantment that does -3/-3, gets rid of Hexproof and ward for your opponents and can just kinda stick around until answered. It goes SO HARD when you start having a higher mass of removal, since people become more reluctant to put their bombs down they thought were safe. Makes everyone but you play some honest magic (Doesn't get around shroud through, but it hits the most annoying players). Oh oh, and 'Unable to Scream' is also very good to shut down someone's big value-engine or game ending threat. Duskmourn has such sick removal options in it.
When the card was first leaked I thought it would become a staple. I havn't seen anyone but me play it yet but every time I have played it, the anti-Hex/anti-ward has been extremely relevant!
There are more options like this in other colors. Arcane Lighthouse, Detection Tower, Glaring Spotlight and Shadowspear are colorless, Bonds of Mortality and Archetype of Endurance are green. Shay Cormac and Kaya, Bane of the Dead are orzhov colors
Personally, I prefer to run more protection, counters and reversal. Each of my decks has 1 or maybe 2 board wipes, 1 of them doesnt have any. I would rather try and get my deck doing its thing better and faster than others and protect it than trying to react with wipes and often they get countered or reversed anyway. Just my 2 cents
I put Extinction in almost all my decks with black. Yes, it can ruin a tribal deck, but I find it works great with creatures with ward or hexproof because I can just name the problematic creature's creature type. It's such a sleeper card.
Personally, my decks run: -1 to 3 board wipes. -2 to 5 “remove almost anything” cards. -1 to 3 fog effects. -min 10 pieces of ramp; green decks 15+ between sorceries & mana dorks. -37 lands minimum, up to 44 in landfall strategies. All other cards slots are for deck synergy and theme. Not to mention….Fog is better than removal and will not only save you, but can win you games.
Man, it feels so good to run ~10 counterspells, all those pesky board wipes and fogs being countered, and then it can also remove a key piece of enemy's board
@@gianmarcofrongia8666 nah, this should be fine. Remember, your opponents have removals too, you aren't going to do this all alone. So you multiply this number by 4 and then divide by the amount of players, which is also 4, which means 5 removals in a deck for each opponent on average
Lands are the most important thing in a deck…particularly in these times; where, we have all the epic non-basics. Hmmm is there an all Lands deck out there??? Aside from the commander of course. Removal is important and may be more important than draw. But maybe not cuz if you keep casting you’ll be out of cards… & draw gets you your removal and other cards
Removal doesn't work so play more removal! Well sounds like coping.😅 To be fair there are enough versitile boardwipes to get around indestructible in every color except green (and a few colorless options), so the rediscovery of phasing is what causes this situation.
As wild as this might sound I no longer run board wipes that destroy creatures. I rather run -x/-x or sacrifice type effects ( exile too ). Same with targeted removal. Everything has protection and these usually get around the
Removal is important and may be more important than draw. But maybe not cuz if you keep casting you’ll be out of cards… & draw gets you your removal and other cards
My ratio of removal to protection has skewed heavily toward protection. Anymore…people with removal often have to also have a counter in hand to succeed.
I mean, in my meta everyone (me included) runs around 20 pieces of removal in our decks (including wipes) at a minimum and nothing stays around for longer than a turn or two. It almost single-handedly made playing magic unfun in our playgroup. It's easy to tell people to run more removal, but I would hardly say that's the pathway to leading to more fulfilling games. Sometimes, I think you just have to eat the L, if they have the flare of fortitude, or the counterspell, you're cooked, and that should be okay. Playing smarter removal like you discussed is a good gameplan.
Removal that also helps your Commander do its thing is the removal you want to have in your deck. My Jodah the Unifier deck uses a variety of Legendary Creatures/Planeswalkers that destroy, bounce, or deal damage on top of the main goal of providing advantage, ramping, or building a board. Combined with board wipes, instant removal, and counterspells, my deck has over 20 forms of potential removal/interaction. 1 in 5 cards I draw are meant to remove things that stop me. Another thing is draw. Removal is typically one to one, but if you have a lot of incremental draw, you can restore your hand size and play more resources. Make sure your draw also does what your Commander wants to do, and make it so that you can draw more than one card/use it over multiple turns. If you want to play casual "let everyone do their thing until someone is big enough to win" then that's fine, but too often people complain about strong cards and plays while also complaining about the very thing that can prevent these plays--interacting with the board before it's too late.
20 is a lot but your gonna need all that interaction playing Jodah. Once the group has lost to him a few times its easy to politic the table into full swing at Jodah regardless of their board state. He must die first or we all die is an easy selling point.
I don't think more board wipes is a clean answer. If you had two in hand against that flare of fortitude, the creatures are still indestructible for the second wipe and they're still untapping to win
I would argue Blue still needs better protection effects. The best Blue protection effects I can think of are Lazoteo Plating / Mizzium Skin (team hexproof) and March of Swirling Mist / Change of Plans / Spectral Adversary (targeted phase out). The hexproof effects can only counter targeted removal (great against Hinata) but not sweepers. The phase out effects can help to selectively save creatures from board wipes, but require you to hold up a lot of mana to save very much of your board. The other obvious answer is to run more counter magic, but counters don't help save you from removal effects that are, say, activated abilities on permanents. Is there another protection effect in Blue along the lines of Teferi's Protection / Heroic Intervention, that I'm just not thinking of?
Removal is always important and working within theme of your deck and the strength of the colors you're using always helps. I have 12 spot removal/interaction, 3 boardwipes. Minimum. Some decks have more than other or some spells and permanents that can be cast more than once.
I think casting off timing board wipes really helps getting around an opponent who has prepped instant speed protection. An example for white is Rout and Comeuppance. They are great examples of keeping your opponents guessing when or how a removal spell will hit them. Also, targeting the player will get around Ward so sacrifice effects like Wing Shards can slow or stop Voltron players. It's not the most perfect fix and that's the point. WOTC is making a lot of 'do the thing with no downsides' buttons for commander now, leading to powercreep to sell product they know makes money. As players who have access to all of MTG's history, we can and should find the niche and weird responses to these flashy tech pieces.
This is something I figured out on my own through play experience. In commander, or shall I say in a multiplayer game it is much MUCH better to focus on gaining and producing advantage as well as pressing your own game plan instead of focusing on hindering others. As much as I love control style decks, it is not a good strategy in multiplayer because they're are way to many threats and advantage engines for removal to hit. Also, the fact most advantage engines come attached to a multiplicity of permanents or instants/sorceries makes removal even worse. Removal is typically a one for one exchange, making the nature of removal bad in multiplayer. Even mass removal is mediocre as their so many card advantage permanents (as well as commanders which players always have access too) to easily recover. As an example, I had a couple friends who like control style decks, and try as they may in commander, they cannot stop all the card advantage and mana advantage produced by their opponents AND get ahead. It is a losing uphill battle in which removal centric decks will eventually succumb. This is not to say removal should be abandoned. You should play sparse, generic removal in your colors, but not too much, just enough to use at the right TIME. Focus on card advantage, mana advantage and play your game plan.
Other Solution: Play THE BEST REMOVAL. Abrupt Decay is a somewhat popular removal in cEDH I think. Swords to Plowshares, Path to Exile, Deadly Rollic are still really good. Blasphemous Act, Toxic Deluge as you mentioned. Fire Covenant ist awesome. Grasp of Fate, the black Flare, Sheoldreds Edict. And of course the classic Wrath of God and Damnation are still good. A problem solver also is Black Sun's Zenith.
I think "more removal" is terrible advice. 1. *YOU WEAKEN YOUR DECK.* With the exception of very specific decks, every removal card you add to your deck means a synergistic function card you have to take out. The deck becomes less able to kill and more about slowing the rate at which you are killed. 2. *SELF-FULFILLING PROPHECY.* Why do you need to wipe? Because your opponent has a bigger board state than you. Why is their board state bigger? Because they have a hand full of board state cards and you have a hand full of removal. The fewer board state cards you have the more likely you are to get overwhelmed by a player with more. 3. *YOU CAN'T COUNT ON HAVING A BYPASS.* Toxic Deluge is great against indestructible, but still does nothing against TefPro. Every wipe is a gamble about what kind of counter wipe your opponents have. Personally, I don't really run removal anymore. I run a little bit of anti-removal and just swarm the board. It works because, as you also noted, even with 4 sweepers in your deck you might not draw one. Meanwhile, my board state is massive whether you draw it or not. You will always win more when you build your plans on winning rather than making contingencies for losing.
hello demo! i think the way to go, in my opinion, is using more effects like druid of purification or council's judgment. they get rid of multiple things at once and they don't target. fleshbag marauder effects are also very good in my opinion since they scale very well in multiplayer. for example, in my dear chainer, dementia master deck i run fleshbag marauder, accursed marauder, merciless executioner, demon's disciple, gravelighter, plaguecrafter and slum reaper. (alongside dead of winter, toxic deluge, damnation, mutilate and living death)
Hmmmmm Interesting. I suppose boardwipes that don't destroy are the way to go, or maybe counter spells if you have blue in your deck. I mainly play gruul and I always shove in a few shuffle removal like chaos warp or collision of realms or a unravel the aether. Although another good idea for removal I find to be decent, even if it doesn't get around ward or hexproof, is enchantments that makes permanents (mostly creatures from what I seen) lose all abilities, not be able to trigger or activate abilities or not to be able to untap. Although it don't get them off the board, they become a lot more useless (Essentially becoming a vanilla creature in some cases) and it might even soak up a removal spell an enemy has that could be used elsewhere.
Nothing greater than a voltron player swinging to take you out and you casting Celestial Flare or Blessed Alliance. I always wondered why more people don't play them.
I try to run 5-7 flexibel spot removal, 2-4 counterspells and lile 2-3 boardwipes, no tutors. The problem with that is my playgroup plays like 0, so I end up using resources for common problems and my opponents get their problems solved for free.
Or maybe just don’t commit literally everything to the board at all times, so you never get blown out either way. That would require alot more threats in general and not like 10 spots for just ramp, with no bother to a mana curve.
Last week I played someone that had a full board after getting back to back toxic deluge to tragic arrogance. Creatures are getting hard to kill. I like things like make an example now where I'm not effected at all
@@Kjos_jax i could evolve. but i've gotten to almost 60k subs doing it this way. i've also heard that my intro is annoying but when i tried getting rid of it briefly, people complained. if it ain't broke don't fix it. 60k people like it this way, i won't be changing it for 1 person.
@@edhdeckbuilding I like your into but that is subjective. White light being bad for your eyes isn't... You come across much kinder and more intelligent in your videos, this is the second time you've talked down to me when commenting. Reason you're such a prick in the comments?
more removal is good but people should be able to protect themselves from boardwipes and people using boardwipes should anticipate some level of protection and be forced to use them as strategically as possible instead of casting them everytime theres a light breeze with no follow up to move the game forward for them but there probably should be more solutions to decks where that protection is almost always live like Slivers.
Completely agree with you demo, I still need more removal across the board. Also do any Patrons know how to assess the discord thru the mobile app? I can’t find a link anywhere to join
@@Helios810 Which means you probably use only the best cards to achieve that, that everyone else uses and the jank gets left behind the way side. Welcome to modern EDH. Just legacy decks with extra steps
I generally run around 8-10 pieces of removal, including 3-5 board wipes. Board wipes are what will save you from losing the game fairly often (just last week I won a game due to wiping the board with 60 scute swarms). Your combo and synergy pieces are important, but top-decking an Academy Manufacturer won't save you from the player going next that has 20 3/3s.
Yea but on the flip side of that I had a game 2 weeks ago where some put down 128 scutes in a single turn and had them all stolen with an emrakul and I won the game over the top of both of them with a combo. Not that I'm saying you shouldn't run board wipes but imo you should run interaction to go with them, copy effects, counterspells or things like shadowspear.
Oh yeah removal wins games alright. For the guy with a protection spell in his hand LOL. Great video, totally agree with you on the protection spells getting way too cheap and easy. I actually have such a strong distaste for Tef-prot that I've started putting Time and Tide into all of my blue colored decks, because it really does crop up often enough to justify it. Really wish we had more cards that deal with phased out creatures, or maybe some more stat-reduction spells in colors that aren't Black. Color "identity" be damned.
Running more board wipes that exile and cause people to sacrifice things would also be helpful. There are still stuff like Tef Prot that gets around this, but indes won't do anything.
V.A.T.S. is really good because of Split Second so they can't respond to it. In fact I feel like cards like Grand Abolisher and Kutzil, Malamet Exemplar that stop your opponent from doing things on your turn are a good response to those 'gotcha' cards like Teferi's Protection.
I always use wipes that synergize with what my deck is doing. In my Nelly Borca deck I run The Eternal Wanderer and Tragic Arrogance as wipes that get around indestructible, and leave my opponents with a single creature each that either are or will soon be suspected making them unable to block, goaded, and giving them menace.
It depends on what kind of deck you're playing. Control decks will run alot more removal. Aggro decks will play more protection. Just gotta know what ur decks wants
Every game I play it VATS functionally is a wipe even though it looks like targeted removal. Instant speed and uncounterable (though ward still works) is pretty good. Get rid of the main problem and catch three or four other things in the collateral damage or just erase that token army coming your way.
Absolutely disagree that protection is winning the race. White (phase out) and blue (counterspells) are really the only colors that can solidly protect themselves against wipes. I think the 20 times I've had heroic intervention in my hand, the wipe has been a mass sac, a mass exile, a mass bounce, a mass -x/-x, or a mass tuck. I have stopped running ways to give things indestructible or hexproof because 90% of the time it won't even protect against the problem and it just becomes a wasted card. I've even tried to run things like Gutter Grime to at least give myself some kind of value for getting my stuff removed, but they'll inevitably be bounced or exiled. I nearly once felt victorious realizing I could regenerate my entire board from the wipe, only to be reminded that damnation says they can't be. Horrible luck. Last week we had a game with nearly 10 wipes - each of us playing about 3. The only thing I remember is being bored. The game becomes a gamble to see who can top deck something better.
I play turbo decks because most ppl at my LGS don't believe in playing any form of removal or interaction. I win most my games with turbo Kona and at the end of every match I let the table know that if they had a single removal spell for Kona they could have easily stopped me. Having the choice to slow down the game with removal or speed up the game with board presence is the main balancing act of MTG. You just can't reliably win without one or the other.
The obvious solution, if removal is getting bad, stop playing so much of it. You'll have fewer draws that don't advance your gameplan, and you'll be more likely to do you thing each game. You'll maybe win less often, but you'll probably have a good time more often.
While I agree with run more removal or interaction in general, it feels like you only have 10 or 12 slots left to dedicate to the decks main theme after you've included all the staples and interaction makes deck building kind of suck,
I'm getting tired of Swords to Plowshares. When I use it to remove a problem creature, esp someone's commander, they just replay it and win anyway, because it was a powerful creature that I had to stop, which is why I removed it in the first place. I think I'll replace it with Reprobation - an enchantment that says enchanted creature loses all abilities and is a 0/1 Coward creature. I think that I would have had a chance to win that game last night if I had Reprobation instead of Swords. I just needed one more turn to kill my opponent with 6 life. But he just recast his commander with flying and one shot me with 32 commander damage.
Ive certainly started running more board wipes as well, especially asymmetrical ones depending one my theme/deck. Would rather run a 4 mana board wipe then 5 one for one swords to plowshares effects. Ive also been running more protrction spells, typically 3-8, because it is an arms race at the end of the day. MtG is a resource game after all
Typically I end running a lot of board wipes that can hit my stuff as well but less so than my average opponent. In my Jeskai tokens deck thats adapted form the bloomburrow precon I pretty much kept all of the board wipes. Calamity of Cinders, Dusk//Dawn, Martial Coup, and Espeth's first minus ability. But I threw in Hour of Reckoning and Perplexing Test. I still run a hefty amount of spot removal, but at least in my own play group there is just a ton of Ward and defensive fog effects, and big stompy creature strategies. Its not uncommon in a game that after turn four or five there are numerous instances where I simply lose if I cant wipe the board, and theres a ward effect or two on big threats that weaken my own board by removing. Its tough to balance but I probably run more than most randoms I play with are expecting to see in a game. So I usually save my wipes for follow up plays unless I just need to save my own ass.
More passive removal? Like Virulent Plague, No Mercy, Molder Slug, or Call to the Grave... phase out all you want, it will be here when you get back. Elesh Norn of course...
This make me want to play ward tribal, I usually play 7 spot removal and 4 wipes I too am finding its not enough. I recently made a boardwipe tribal deck it was a lot of fun.
1. Play all five colors. 2. Put every protection, removal, and counter spell in your deck. 3. Progenitus as your Commander, with Child of Alara as one of the 99. 4. Wear black poker shades the entire game and only say cool one-liners. 5. Pay me later for the good result, delete your TH-cam account over a bad result. Simple as. 💯💯💯
I run Sands of Time in 4 decks, 4 mana artifact that skips untap, and during upkeep you tap every untapped permanent and untap every tapped one. By skipping the upkeep, nothing can phase back in, so if someone Teferi's Protections, they literally can't do anything because they have no lands.
i dont run more than 1 board wipe in my casual decks anymore, unless im playing at the game store vs new faces. When in playing vsing my main playgroup playing more than 1 board wipe deck is a sure fire way of getting killed first everytime.
On my mono black deck arena standard I run 14 removal. So I guess on 99 cards you could add some more. I can't play commander deck without 12-14 spot removal and 2-3 board wipe
At this point in the games cycle, I’m using 4-5 board wipes and I’m dropping them early to take all mana dorks and engine pieces. I’ll gladly pay 4 mana for wrath of god to take out even just two creatures.
Play more removal? Nah ill just speed my decks up to try and outpace them. The answer people always seem to throw out is more removal. Sooner or later my deck will be removal the deck if i keep listening. Speed my own deck up and beat them at their own game seems to be working. Also playing more stax pieces that helps too
This is all so dependent on your group and your strategy. If you are the aggro you need mostly no whipe, maybe 1 in case. If you are the control you can play some more. If you have a deck that goes at the same pace as your pod mostly a boardwhipe is useless unless it's onesided. You kinda just need boardwhipe if you are slow and you need to slow down people to your pace.
Im a Temur Timmy.all i want to do is play my biggest creature. I started to pack my decks with lots of "counters" like tamyo's safekeeping and friends just so i can keep my board. I force people to answer me. I don't answer them unless it comes on a creature or is a counterspell or is both. I hate games where noone does anything other than just remove things, its so very boring.
All removal has gotten worse. Ward and Hexproof make some things complete unable to be stopped, then you board wipe to kill the hexproof thing and they use some protection. That is why every single deck I play that can run them now runs: Nowhere to run - invalidates ward and hexproof as well as being its own kill spell, Shadowspear - invalidates hexproof and indestructible plus who doesnt want some life gain, Arcane Lighthouse - Removes hexproof and shroud in the land slot. Honestly I might just buy like 20 Nowhere to runs soon because I swear people are under valuing this card and I think pretty soon it will become a black staple. I mean for 2 mana I would play it without the additional small creature removal tacked on. I expect as the format evolves and ward/hexproof/indestructible continue to become more pushed we will begin to see an answer to those problems continue to pop up, and I think Nowhere to run is an example of a card who will be the first in a line of other answers to this growing problem.
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One of my solutions to this is almost exclusively playing boardwipes that get around mass board protection. Cards like toxic deluge and tragic arrogance get around so many more protection spells because the don’t say destroy and I feel like that’s pretty necessary right now.
Farewell, hallowed burial there’s options if you look for them
I've been waxing about tragic arrogance for YEARS, love cards like that
Tragic Arrogance is such a great card.
Yes, farewell is a clean sweep, but if you play into it well I like Tragic Arrogance more. It can lead to huge swings.
you mean the 3-4 mass removal that work as long noone has phase out?
or the one that works if you use it reactive (instantdpeed)
Tefari's protection is too good for 3 mana.
TL;DR:
Problem: removal sucks right now
Solution: play more removal!
Interaction wins games! Not just removal.
I agree but the crappy part is we don't wanna have to put blue in every deck. Granted there are non-blue counterspells, however they're few in number and usually restricted.
There is another approach to this issue but it depends on the colors you are playing. Instead of playing board wipes, play the best single target removal spells you can afford because there are usually just 1-2 problematic permanents on the table and the rest are fodder. This allows you to deal with a player without drawing hate from the rest of the table. You can also use cards that allow you to survive the winning turn of a player or even allow you to turn them against the rest of the table, like Illusionist's Gambit. Furthermore, cards like Rakdos Charm or Stronghold Discipline allow you to take out an opponent who has overextended. Generally speaking, instead of trying to tackle the problem head on, you can try a different approach. Be patient and use cards only against threats that directly affect you and don't bother dealing with cards that aren't immediately threatening.
You could also play more must answer threats paired with tons of card advantage to keep the threats flowing to advance your own gameplan, backed up with some of your own protection spells. Overloading on removal puts you in a place where you’re just playing a reactive game and not advancing your own plan. In other words just win.
It depends on your commander. I am using Urza Chief Artficier and all I do is the early game is blow up the board. Late game I start to build my construct army.
Removal engines are the way to go. My favorite deck is my cycling deck where Archfiend of Ifnir is a powerhouse. It gets around all the problems pretty nice
for sure, almost all my decks can get wins with or are entirely built around removal engines. Great way to get rid of permanents or spells if you dont need to spend too many cards for them.
one option i have been liking more recently is edict effects- ones like soul shatter get around protection like ward and can be a nice 2 or 3 for 1 which acts as if you are running more removal spells than you are
I’ve gone the other route of putting more protections in my deck and fewer removals. If you have the biggest army on the board, it doesn’t make sense to wipe the board or use spot removal when you can just overwhelm everyone else. One sided removals are nice but I rather protect my board at all cost.
Yeah i think the fastest and strongest your deck is the more you need protection than removal because it's others that will have to find removal against you
Ward is like glitter
It's everywhere and you can't clean it up
...The dream play is to hit a Flare of Fortitude with a Mana Tithe
I would say that -x/-x wipes are among the best ones. Only phasing and exile until end of turn can save you from those, plus they can sometimes be used to try and give an advantage to yourself. Don't forget about Black Sun's Zenith or Mutilate and Languish - the former puts -1 counters, so even the stuff you can't afford to kill is a lot smaller
Just take me back to EDH 8 years ago.
I have made a personal rule to never include even one board wipe.
I just do not find them fun and would rather have cards in my decks that I enjoy and sticking to spot removal.
I've actually started doing the opposite and run less removal as I started playing witha new play group and noted that they play a lot of removal so if I used removal to remove something. Typically, I would become a target so I replaced my removal with protection spells. And i've actually done a lot better because i'm not so much a target anymore who is removing stuff plus I'm not devoting my manna to removing and keeping my stuff safe. I'm just playing my stuff and keeping it safe
Good point. It does depend on the play group meta.
My plsygroup runs about 15-20 pieces of interaction each. It makes me hate my life so the only way to win is to be loaded up with protection. They can deal with eachother on removal/interaction lol
@@George-mm8crmy group runs like 10 collectivly........
I have started to consider if I should run some spell copy effects in red sans blue decks to push my boardwipes through and see how often I can resolve the copy before an opponent's protection spell. It might work as long as I'm not losing virtual card advantage via boardstate, but it still doesn't get past indestructible. I saw another comment saying to use removal engines, and I've started to do that more. You can force them to use up their protection spells or remove your engine, either way I think you have to try to beat them at card advantage.
Between protection spells farewell and powercreep in general what I’ve noticed is if your board wiping on your turn with no follow up there’s more often than not someone who can recover way faster than you after the wipe and capitalize on the clear board. And if your not wiping everything but lands your definitely leaving behind something that will facilitate that recovery more often than not I see that play pattern over the player who wipes comes out ahead by their next turn unless it’s one side like a plague wind or rift I’ve found I really like route for having an instant wipe while behind and being able to recover first
That has always been the problem with boardwipes: you invest a card and mana and the best you can achieve is to get back to board state parity, while still having the investment of the wipe itself. It's why I stopped playing boardwipes altogether unless they are part of the deck's basic tech (like in Zurgo). The trick is to build and play in way that you don't get far enough behind that a boardwipe starts to appear attractive.
@@Volkbrecht I also find that less interaction and more synergy redundant pieces are helpful with outracing boardwipes or being able to recover faster after someone else’s and the only interaction I’ll play is a few counterspells or protection spells not like none but bare minimal to pop a stax piece or something that actively stops me or pushes their wins like even dogs tend to run better than a wipe cuz you can stop an alpha strike and now your other OPPs can punish the player who tried and left himself wide open to crack back
There's a reason i dont run any boardwipes that say destroy or damage. If we've gotten to "need a board wipe" stage, you're getting forced sacrifice, -x/-x, rifts, or exiles because you've made lesser, kinder options unusable.
Teferi’s Protection, Guardian of Faith, March of Swirling Mists, Galadriel’s Dismissal
@@grahamhenry9368 don't forget Eerie Interlude, Cleaver Concealment, and Semester's End. White is just swimming in these effects
what about playing more stax cards? they are effectively passive removal by limiting your opponent's ability to cast those scary spells
I love the new Duskmourn card 'Nowhere to Run'. Flash in a enchantment that does -3/-3, gets rid of Hexproof and ward for your opponents and can just kinda stick around until answered. It goes SO HARD when you start having a higher mass of removal, since people become more reluctant to put their bombs down they thought were safe.
Makes everyone but you play some honest magic (Doesn't get around shroud through, but it hits the most annoying players). Oh oh, and 'Unable to Scream' is also very good to shut down someone's big value-engine or game ending threat. Duskmourn has such sick removal options in it.
When the card was first leaked I thought it would become a staple. I havn't seen anyone but me play it yet but every time I have played it, the anti-Hex/anti-ward has been extremely relevant!
There are more options like this in other colors. Arcane Lighthouse, Detection Tower, Glaring Spotlight and Shadowspear are colorless, Bonds of Mortality and Archetype of Endurance are green. Shay Cormac and Kaya, Bane of the Dead are orzhov colors
Great discussion on a great topic. The balance between protection and removal spells in a deck build wins games...IMHO
Personally, I prefer to run more protection, counters and reversal. Each of my decks has 1 or maybe 2 board wipes, 1 of them doesnt have any. I would rather try and get my deck doing its thing better and faster than others and protect it than trying to react with wipes and often they get countered or reversed anyway. Just my 2 cents
Same - I like to focus and protect my engine
I put Extinction in almost all my decks with black. Yes, it can ruin a tribal deck, but I find it works great with creatures with ward or hexproof because I can just name the problematic creature's creature type. It's such a sleeper card.
A 5 mana sorcery is a huge investment though. 5 mana is board wipe territory, and Extinction is rarely a meaningful wipe against more than 1 player
Personally, my decks run:
-1 to 3 board wipes.
-2 to 5 “remove almost anything” cards.
-1 to 3 fog effects.
-min 10 pieces of ramp; green decks 15+ between sorceries & mana dorks.
-37 lands minimum, up to 44 in landfall strategies.
All other cards slots are for deck synergy and theme.
Not to mention….Fog is better than removal and will not only save you, but can win you games.
Man, it feels so good to run ~10 counterspells, all those pesky board wipes and fogs being countered, and then it can also remove a key piece of enemy's board
@@Romashka_SovI would counter a counter to a boardwipe even if getting wiped was bad for me, just to mess with the heavy counter player.
@@Jlizard27 why 😭
Counterspells are essentially the same removals and "fogs", but for blue
Only 5 target removal? You gotta handle 3 opponents, aren't they few?
@@gianmarcofrongia8666 nah, this should be fine. Remember, your opponents have removals too, you aren't going to do this all alone. So you multiply this number by 4 and then divide by the amount of players, which is also 4, which means 5 removals in a deck for each opponent on average
Lands are the most important thing in a deck…particularly in these times; where, we have all the epic non-basics. Hmmm is there an all Lands deck out there??? Aside from the commander of course.
Removal is important and may be more important than draw. But maybe not cuz if you keep casting you’ll be out of cards… & draw gets you your removal and other cards
I've cut out all my removal and doubled down on protection. Removal is usually designated to creatures I have.
Removal doesn't work so play more removal!
Well sounds like coping.😅
To be fair there are enough versitile boardwipes to get around indestructible in every color except green (and a few colorless options), so the rediscovery of phasing is what causes this situation.
i wish i could like this comment twice!! thank you
As wild as this might sound I no longer run board wipes that destroy creatures. I rather run -x/-x or sacrifice type effects ( exile too ). Same with targeted removal. Everything has protection and these usually get around the
Removal is important and may be more important than draw. But maybe not cuz if you keep casting you’ll be out of cards… & draw gets you your removal and other cards
My most evil deck continuously forces players to sacrifice their permanents. It's great.
Great points. I'm surprised you didn't mention more edict effects. That would help would it not? Gravepact is glorious in this Commander meta.
My ratio of removal to protection has skewed heavily toward protection. Anymore…people with removal often have to also have a counter in hand to succeed.
I mean, in my meta everyone (me included) runs around 20 pieces of removal in our decks (including wipes) at a minimum and nothing stays around for longer than a turn or two. It almost single-handedly made playing magic unfun in our playgroup.
It's easy to tell people to run more removal, but I would hardly say that's the pathway to leading to more fulfilling games. Sometimes, I think you just have to eat the L, if they have the flare of fortitude, or the counterspell, you're cooked, and that should be okay. Playing smarter removal like you discussed is a good gameplan.
More people need to watch this video. Perfect
I've been taken with mass bounce for this very reason. Yes, a couple protect spells still work, but sometimes you do in fact just get reversed.
Removal that also helps your Commander do its thing is the removal you want to have in your deck. My Jodah the Unifier deck uses a variety of Legendary Creatures/Planeswalkers that destroy, bounce, or deal damage on top of the main goal of providing advantage, ramping, or building a board. Combined with board wipes, instant removal, and counterspells, my deck has over 20 forms of potential removal/interaction. 1 in 5 cards I draw are meant to remove things that stop me.
Another thing is draw. Removal is typically one to one, but if you have a lot of incremental draw, you can restore your hand size and play more resources. Make sure your draw also does what your Commander wants to do, and make it so that you can draw more than one card/use it over multiple turns.
If you want to play casual "let everyone do their thing until someone is big enough to win" then that's fine, but too often people complain about strong cards and plays while also complaining about the very thing that can prevent these plays--interacting with the board before it's too late.
20 is a lot but your gonna need all that interaction playing Jodah. Once the group has lost to him a few times its easy to politic the table into full swing at Jodah regardless of their board state. He must die first or we all die is an easy selling point.
I been talking about this for over a year now because having one sided board wipes really pay off
I don't think more board wipes is a clean answer. If you had two in hand against that flare of fortitude, the creatures are still indestructible for the second wipe and they're still untapping to win
I would argue Blue still needs better protection effects. The best Blue protection effects I can think of are Lazoteo Plating / Mizzium Skin (team hexproof) and March of Swirling Mist / Change of Plans / Spectral Adversary (targeted phase out). The hexproof effects can only counter targeted removal (great against Hinata) but not sweepers. The phase out effects can help to selectively save creatures from board wipes, but require you to hold up a lot of mana to save very much of your board. The other obvious answer is to run more counter magic, but counters don't help save you from removal effects that are, say, activated abilities on permanents. Is there another protection effect in Blue along the lines of Teferi's Protection / Heroic Intervention, that I'm just not thinking of?
Removal is always important and working within theme of your deck and the strength of the colors you're using always helps. I have 12 spot removal/interaction, 3 boardwipes. Minimum. Some decks have more than other or some spells and permanents that can be cast more than once.
I think casting off timing board wipes really helps getting around an opponent who has prepped instant speed protection. An example for white is Rout and Comeuppance. They are great examples of keeping your opponents guessing when or how a removal spell will hit them. Also, targeting the player will get around Ward so sacrifice effects like Wing Shards can slow or stop Voltron players. It's not the most perfect fix and that's the point. WOTC is making a lot of 'do the thing with no downsides' buttons for commander now, leading to powercreep to sell product they know makes money. As players who have access to all of MTG's history, we can and should find the niche and weird responses to these flashy tech pieces.
This is something I figured out on my own through play experience. In commander, or shall I say in a multiplayer game it is much MUCH better to focus on gaining and producing advantage as well as pressing your own game plan instead of focusing on hindering others. As much as I love control style decks, it is not a good strategy in multiplayer because they're are way to many threats and advantage engines for removal to hit. Also, the fact most advantage engines come attached to a multiplicity of permanents or instants/sorceries makes removal even worse. Removal is typically a one for one exchange, making the nature of removal bad in multiplayer. Even mass removal is mediocre as their so many card advantage permanents (as well as commanders which players always have access too) to easily recover. As an example, I had a couple friends who like control style decks, and try as they may in commander, they cannot stop all the card advantage and mana advantage produced by their opponents AND get ahead. It is a losing uphill battle in which removal centric decks will eventually succumb. This is not to say removal should be abandoned. You should play sparse, generic removal in your colors, but not too much, just enough to use at the right TIME. Focus on card advantage, mana advantage and play your game plan.
Good observations. Mass bounce effects are also good.
Other Solution: Play THE BEST REMOVAL.
Abrupt Decay is a somewhat popular removal in cEDH I think.
Swords to Plowshares, Path to Exile, Deadly Rollic are still really good.
Blasphemous Act, Toxic Deluge as you mentioned. Fire Covenant ist awesome. Grasp of Fate, the black Flare, Sheoldreds Edict. And of course the classic Wrath of God and Damnation are still good. A problem solver also is Black Sun's Zenith.
my favorite anti-boardwipe card is Gerard’s Hourglass Pendant. also doubles as an anti-extra turn cards
I think "more removal" is terrible advice.
1. *YOU WEAKEN YOUR DECK.* With the exception of very specific decks, every removal card you add to your deck means a synergistic function card you have to take out. The deck becomes less able to kill and more about slowing the rate at which you are killed.
2. *SELF-FULFILLING PROPHECY.* Why do you need to wipe? Because your opponent has a bigger board state than you. Why is their board state bigger? Because they have a hand full of board state cards and you have a hand full of removal. The fewer board state cards you have the more likely you are to get overwhelmed by a player with more.
3. *YOU CAN'T COUNT ON HAVING A BYPASS.* Toxic Deluge is great against indestructible, but still does nothing against TefPro. Every wipe is a gamble about what kind of counter wipe your opponents have.
Personally, I don't really run removal anymore. I run a little bit of anti-removal and just swarm the board. It works because, as you also noted, even with 4 sweepers in your deck you might not draw one. Meanwhile, my board state is massive whether you draw it or not.
You will always win more when you build your plans on winning rather than making contingencies for losing.
hello demo!
i think the way to go, in my opinion, is using more effects like druid of purification or council's judgment. they get rid of multiple things at once and they don't target. fleshbag marauder effects are also very good in my opinion since they scale very well in multiplayer.
for example, in my dear chainer, dementia master deck i run fleshbag marauder, accursed marauder, merciless executioner, demon's disciple, gravelighter, plaguecrafter and slum reaper. (alongside dead of winter, toxic deluge, damnation, mutilate and living death)
Hmmmmm Interesting. I suppose boardwipes that don't destroy are the way to go, or maybe counter spells if you have blue in your deck. I mainly play gruul and I always shove in a few shuffle removal like chaos warp or collision of realms or a unravel the aether.
Although another good idea for removal I find to be decent, even if it doesn't get around ward or hexproof, is enchantments that makes permanents (mostly creatures from what I seen) lose all abilities, not be able to trigger or activate abilities or not to be able to untap. Although it don't get them off the board, they become a lot more useless (Essentially becoming a vanilla creature in some cases) and it might even soak up a removal spell an enemy has that could be used elsewhere.
As someone who plays The Gitrog, Ravenous Ride. PLAY MORE REMOVAL! I am shocked when i go to an lgs, and my commander never gets removed.
Nothing greater than a voltron player swinging to take you out and you casting Celestial Flare or Blessed Alliance. I always wondered why more people don't play them.
i absolutely love farewell, and it there need to be more cards like it
I try to run 5-7 flexibel spot removal, 2-4 counterspells and lile 2-3 boardwipes, no tutors. The problem with that is my playgroup plays like 0, so I end up using resources for common problems and my opponents get their problems solved for free.
Or maybe just don’t commit literally everything to the board at all times, so you never get blown out either way. That would require alot more threats in general and not like 10 spots for just ramp, with no bother to a mana curve.
Last week I played someone that had a full board after getting back to back toxic deluge to tragic arrogance. Creatures are getting hard to kill. I like things like make an example now where I'm not effected at all
based, love make an example
The white background is really harsh Demo
Darkmode is to help people's vision... what purpose does whitemode serve?
new to my channel? i've been doing this since the beginning.
@@edhdeckbuilding That wasn't an answer and just because you've done something one way doesn't mean you can't evolve right?
@@Kjos_jax i could evolve. but i've gotten to almost 60k subs doing it this way. i've also heard that my intro is annoying but when i tried getting rid of it briefly, people complained. if it ain't broke don't fix it. 60k people like it this way, i won't be changing it for 1 person.
@@edhdeckbuilding I like your into but that is subjective. White light being bad for your eyes isn't... You come across much kinder and more intelligent in your videos, this is the second time you've talked down to me when commenting. Reason you're such a prick in the comments?
Black Sun's Zenith, Play of the Game
Reminder to everyone that you cannot win if your opponent already won. Removal stops them from winning. Play more of it.
unravel the aether and deglamer, im unsure if cathartic parting being sorcery is too slow
more removal is good but people should be able to protect themselves from boardwipes and people using boardwipes should anticipate some level of protection and be forced to use them as strategically as possible
instead of casting them everytime theres a light breeze with no follow up to move the game forward for them
but there probably should be more solutions to decks where that protection is almost always live like Slivers.
With all this indestructible protection, looks like farewell just got a boost😂 Exile everything...
Settle the wreckage, Winds of abandon etc
Completely agree with you demo, I still need more removal across the board. Also do any Patrons know how to assess the discord thru the mobile app? I can’t find a link anywhere to join
something I try and do with each deck is put at least 10 pieces of card draw, mana acceleration and targeted removal each and at least 1 board wipe
leaving you only a few synergy pieces which you probably disregard to staples. Welcome to modern EDH, everyone's deck is the same.
@@Garl_Vinland I actually try to ensure they’re as synergistic as possible
@@Helios810 Which means you probably use only the best cards to achieve that, that everyone else uses and the jank gets left behind the way side. Welcome to modern EDH. Just legacy decks with extra steps
@@Garl_Vinland I don’t think Restoration of Eiganjo is what would be considered the best ramp for a mono white deck, even if it is a token deck
I generally run around 8-10 pieces of removal, including 3-5 board wipes. Board wipes are what will save you from losing the game fairly often (just last week I won a game due to wiping the board with 60 scute swarms). Your combo and synergy pieces are important, but top-decking an Academy Manufacturer won't save you from the player going next that has 20 3/3s.
Yea but on the flip side of that I had a game 2 weeks ago where some put down 128 scutes in a single turn and had them all stolen with an emrakul and I won the game over the top of both of them with a combo.
Not that I'm saying you shouldn't run board wipes but imo you should run interaction to go with them, copy effects, counterspells or things like shadowspear.
Oh yeah removal wins games alright. For the guy with a protection spell in his hand LOL.
Great video, totally agree with you on the protection spells getting way too cheap and easy. I actually have such a strong distaste for Tef-prot that I've started putting Time and Tide into all of my blue colored decks, because it really does crop up often enough to justify it. Really wish we had more cards that deal with phased out creatures, or maybe some more stat-reduction spells in colors that aren't Black. Color "identity" be damned.
This is why I play Taigam, Ojutai Master I can play more removal get more out of my removal spells and it gets around ward
Running more board wipes that exile and cause people to sacrifice things would also be helpful. There are still stuff like Tef Prot that gets around this, but indes won't do anything.
new card - "All creatures phase in. Destroy all creatures."
There fixed
Adding more "split second" removals will defeat all the protection situations.....
V.A.T.S. is really good because of Split Second so they can't respond to it. In fact I feel like cards like Grand Abolisher and Kutzil, Malamet Exemplar that stop your opponent from doing things on your turn are a good response to those 'gotcha' cards like Teferi's Protection.
I always use wipes that synergize with what my deck is doing. In my Nelly Borca deck I run The Eternal Wanderer and Tragic Arrogance as wipes that get around indestructible, and leave my opponents with a single creature each that either are or will soon be suspected making them unable to block, goaded, and giving them menace.
It depends on what kind of deck you're playing. Control decks will run alot more removal. Aggro decks will play more protection. Just gotta know what ur decks wants
Every game I play it VATS functionally is a wipe even though it looks like targeted removal. Instant speed and uncounterable (though ward still works) is pretty good. Get rid of the main problem and catch three or four other things in the collateral damage or just erase that token army coming your way.
Great video 👍
Thanks 👍
Absolutely disagree that protection is winning the race. White (phase out) and blue (counterspells) are really the only colors that can solidly protect themselves against wipes. I think the 20 times I've had heroic intervention in my hand, the wipe has been a mass sac, a mass exile, a mass bounce, a mass -x/-x, or a mass tuck. I have stopped running ways to give things indestructible or hexproof because 90% of the time it won't even protect against the problem and it just becomes a wasted card. I've even tried to run things like Gutter Grime to at least give myself some kind of value for getting my stuff removed, but they'll inevitably be bounced or exiled. I nearly once felt victorious realizing I could regenerate my entire board from the wipe, only to be reminded that damnation says they can't be. Horrible luck.
Last week we had a game with nearly 10 wipes - each of us playing about 3. The only thing I remember is being bored. The game becomes a gamble to see who can top deck something better.
I play turbo decks because most ppl at my LGS don't believe in playing any form of removal or interaction. I win most my games with turbo Kona and at the end of every match I let the table know that if they had a single removal spell for Kona they could have easily stopped me. Having the choice to slow down the game with removal or speed up the game with board presence is the main balancing act of MTG. You just can't reliably win without one or the other.
The obvious solution, if removal is getting bad, stop playing so much of it. You'll have fewer draws that don't advance your gameplan, and you'll be more likely to do you thing each game. You'll maybe win less often, but you'll probably have a good time more often.
Play cards that prevent people playing stuff on your turn and play instant board wipe/mass bounce spells.
Pro tip: tragic arrogance is SO STRONG… gets around all the protection
While I agree with run more removal or interaction in general, it feels like you only have 10 or 12 slots left to dedicate to the decks main theme after you've included all the staples and interaction makes deck building kind of suck,
i think most players put too much ramp and lands in their deck. replace your mana rocks with removal
I plan on making a mono black Valgaroth deck built around making others sacrifice their stuff it'll suck for my opponents but be wonderful for me
I'm getting tired of Swords to Plowshares. When I use it to remove a problem creature, esp someone's commander, they just replay it and win anyway, because it was a powerful creature that I had to stop, which is why I removed it in the first place. I think I'll replace it with Reprobation - an enchantment that says enchanted creature loses all abilities and is a 0/1 Coward creature. I think that I would have had a chance to win that game last night if I had Reprobation instead of Swords. I just needed one more turn to kill my opponent with 6 life. But he just recast his commander with flying and one shot me with 32 commander damage.
phasing out is also a good solution. try oubliette or the pandorica.
@@edhdeckbuilding Hello! Yeah Oubliette looks good for black. And Pandorica for white: I've never seen that card; and it's repeatable. Nice. Thanks!
Ive certainly started running more board wipes as well, especially asymmetrical ones depending one my theme/deck. Would rather run a 4 mana board wipe then 5 one for one swords to plowshares effects. Ive also been running more protrction spells, typically 3-8, because it is an arms race at the end of the day. MtG is a resource game after all
Typically I end running a lot of board wipes that can hit my stuff as well but less so than my average opponent. In my Jeskai tokens deck thats adapted form the bloomburrow precon I pretty much kept all of the board wipes. Calamity of Cinders, Dusk//Dawn, Martial Coup, and Espeth's first minus ability. But I threw in Hour of Reckoning and Perplexing Test.
I still run a hefty amount of spot removal, but at least in my own play group there is just a ton of Ward and defensive fog effects, and big stompy creature strategies. Its not uncommon in a game that after turn four or five there are numerous instances where I simply lose if I cant wipe the board, and theres a ward effect or two on big threats that weaken my own board by removing. Its tough to balance but I probably run more than most randoms I play with are expecting to see in a game. So I usually save my wipes for follow up plays unless I just need to save my own ass.
More passive removal? Like Virulent Plague, No Mercy, Molder Slug, or Call to the Grave... phase out all you want, it will be here when you get back.
Elesh Norn of course...
This make me want to play ward tribal, I usually play 7 spot removal and 4 wipes I too am finding its not enough. I recently made a boardwipe tribal deck it was a lot of fun.
1. Play all five colors.
2. Put every protection, removal, and counter spell in your deck.
3. Progenitus as your Commander, with Child of Alara as one of the 99.
4. Wear black poker shades the entire game and only say cool one-liners.
5. Pay me later for the good result, delete your TH-cam account over a bad result.
Simple as. 💯💯💯
In summary: Removal sucks, run more removal. 😎
Green did have Wrap in Vigor before Heroic Granted not as strong as Heroic.
Notice how this man never addressed how to get around Tefari's Protection or Clever Concealment, which is why those cards are king.
Discard
I run Sands of Time in 4 decks, 4 mana artifact that skips untap, and during upkeep you tap every untapped permanent and untap every tapped one. By skipping the upkeep, nothing can phase back in, so if someone Teferi's Protections, they literally can't do anything because they have no lands.
@@webbc99 Yeah but as soon as you play that card, the Tefari player is just going to target you
My solution: player removal.
Tragic arrogance with crackling doom combo is fun as my one sided wipe. Both get around hexproof and indestructible as it sacrifice their stuff,
i dont run more than 1 board wipe in my casual decks anymore, unless im playing at the game store vs new faces.
When in playing vsing my main playgroup playing more than 1 board wipe deck is a sure fire way of getting killed first everytime.
Cant always wins = Protection wins.....
On my mono black deck arena standard I run 14 removal. So I guess on 99 cards you could add some more. I can't play commander deck without 12-14 spot removal and 2-3 board wipe
Agree about boardswipes. These win the game and need at least 10. (Spot and whole).
At this point in the games cycle, I’m using 4-5 board wipes and I’m dropping them early to take all mana dorks and engine pieces. I’ll gladly pay 4 mana for wrath of god to take out even just two creatures.
Play more removal? Nah ill just speed my decks up to try and outpace them. The answer people always seem to throw out is more removal. Sooner or later my deck will be removal the deck if i keep listening. Speed my own deck up and beat them at their own game seems to be working. Also playing more stax pieces that helps too
Me, having Maha as a commander: Protections are a problem?
This is all so dependent on your group and your strategy. If you are the aggro you need mostly no whipe, maybe 1 in case. If you are the control you can play some more. If you have a deck that goes at the same pace as your pod mostly a boardwhipe is useless unless it's onesided. You kinda just need boardwhipe if you are slow and you need to slow down people to your pace.
Im a Temur Timmy.all i want to do is play my biggest creature. I started to pack my decks with lots of "counters" like tamyo's safekeeping and friends just so i can keep my board. I force people to answer me. I don't answer them unless it comes on a creature or is a counterspell or is both. I hate games where noone does anything other than just remove things, its so very boring.
I personally run 3-6 board wipes. anything less seems crazy to me
All removal has gotten worse. Ward and Hexproof make some things complete unable to be stopped, then you board wipe to kill the hexproof thing and they use some protection. That is why every single deck I play that can run them now runs: Nowhere to run - invalidates ward and hexproof as well as being its own kill spell, Shadowspear - invalidates hexproof and indestructible plus who doesnt want some life gain, Arcane Lighthouse - Removes hexproof and shroud in the land slot.
Honestly I might just buy like 20 Nowhere to runs soon because I swear people are under valuing this card and I think pretty soon it will become a black staple. I mean for 2 mana I would play it without the additional small creature removal tacked on. I expect as the format evolves and ward/hexproof/indestructible continue to become more pushed we will begin to see an answer to those problems continue to pop up, and I think Nowhere to run is an example of a card who will be the first in a line of other answers to this growing problem.
“Dies to counter spells”
This is the perfect reply
Like nearly every card?