Hi Jordan, this is what I'm looking for. In the not so distant future, households will be looking to have 2 or more EVs. This solves the problem of having to decide which car to plug in. It also means that a car can arrive with a low state of charge and get up to a usable state by next morning. Taxi drivers in particular could do with this. Business owners could run their EV fleets more effectively with such a solution as well, depending on the setup and use case.
I imagine the car manufacturers will be quite hesitant about this, as using the car battery to support home loads will potentially put a lot more cycles into it, and thus increase the chances of it failing / dropping sufficient capacity to be replaced under warranty...
The t&c's are going to be the issue.. I suspect if manufacturers allow it, it will be limited in some way, or the battery warranty will shift from miles/km to kWh
The car manufacturers are resistant to open source bidirectional because they see it as a loss of revenue. In the States, only Ford, GM, and Tesla allow it for their trucks, and their home units all proprietary. This issue will only be solved with government regulation.
Standard non-spirited driving is also relatively low loads.. Cycles matter Pulling 10kWh off a battery every night is the equivalent to about 22000km/14000mi per annum.
The Nissan Leaf has been bidirectional for the last 10 years or more, and we used a Setec 6kw Mobile Power Station to run our heating system for the last 2 years, and we could take it camping, and we could use it to charge another EV at the road side. But it is old tech compared to this, so really interested if Sigenergy offers this Bidirectional function on their single phase version. Because our Setec has developed a fault, and there is no one around who can repair it, which of course adds another dimension to all this new tech, whose going to repair it when it goes wrong?
My VW id5 says it has bidirectional charging and VW announced they were v2x ready with their Id fleet middle of the year , it would be interesting to plug in a Vw Id to your customer to check , if they fill up battery to drive back home I might be able to drive to take chance , there is a good chance I’ll buy the sigenstor if it works
It’s in the menu and has a limit of bidirectional charging it can do , 10000kwh , I’m interested to see if sig energy already talk to the VW in the launage Jordan talked about , at the end of the day this is in use in Australia what’s to stop it talking in the uk
We might be further ahead than everyone thinks and I can’t see why it can’t be used as it’s by right our equipment , I’m guessing it’s the Gov trying to find a way of taxing it , as they won’t be able to as it’s off grid essentially
My Skoda Enyaq already has V2G options and metering built into the Infotainment system. Can't wait for chargers like this to become more common place. Does the 22kw EV charging require a 3 phase supply?
@@nickstocker4834 ah, yeah, but where is that DC sourced from? Batteries alone or from the mains alone, or a combination? A big solar array may cover you in the day but not at other times. You are unlikely to be charging at 25kw (not 22) from single phase if you only have smaller batteries in the house because you have the car battery as you main home battery.
@@MrWobling Yep. Assuming the incoming voltage is actually 230, you would have a 109A load for the charger alone + another 10-50 for a typical house (depending on what they have running). I know fuses don't magically pop at their rated current, but that's a fair bit over 100, and a flat EV would hold that load for a long time.
I love the sound of the Sigenergy system. I've been doing my research and it ticks so many boxes. I now need to find installers in West Yorkshire. The DC charging makes so much sense, especially when you can charge your car with excess from the PV. You could have almost free motoring for a good chunk of the year with a large enough array. Another reason to oversize when getting my install. My concern with V2H is it's so new and without a standard I fear early adopters my get left behind. I guess with this system at least you can possibly upgrade that part of the stack.
If you can export then solar is not free. I get 15p per kWh for export, I pay 8.5p per kWh to import off peak. So it would make sense to charge the car off peak as well, it would cost more to use solar.
@@TheRonskiman Fair point. As I learn more I realise you work out all the best strategies to maximise your ROI. Part of me has it in mind that I shouldn't rely on export tariffs though as those could change. At least with DV charging I know that I could use my excess solar to charge up a car/s.
@@GuyH77 It sort of threw my thinking on its head when I realised, you always think of solar as free electric, but its not if your paid to export it. If your planning a system then don't rely on export tariffs to calculate ROI (if your fussed about that), but once that system is installed maximising expert tariff's whilst keeping cycle life in mind can be a very good earner. I have a 6000 cycle life, or 1 cycle a day for over 16 years, I always fill my 29kWh battery on cheap Go, and export back to 15% by midnight, even in December my daily electric cost if a couple of £'s at most on a poor solar day. Over the year it even covers my gas usage (soon to fit an ASHP) with some profit for two years now.
I love V2x. It can't come soon enough, but EVs and home batteries both need software changes to make it work efficiently, especially to maximise the benefit from the swing in electricity prices through each day.
Surely, the car can schedule the charging and also chargers like the Zappi can schedule the charging. You said that you can’t currently to grid charging so what happens if you connect the V2L to your house consumer unit and let it trickle charge the house battery storage, can that feed back into the grid? Was the DNO happy to issue the G99 certificate?
Does sigenergy also allow an ac charger to be installed with the system as well, as car manufacturers often recommend frequent AC charging to maintain battery condition?
Just got my first EV, BMW I4, and currently looking at a solar + battery solution with Octopus Energy as the supplier as they currently offer very cheap "intelligent charging" rates which you mentioned right at the end of the video. What's your advice on taking the plunge in to a solar + battery solution now, Vs waiting say 6-12 months to see how the market reacts and new solutions that become available?
Octopus are great as an energy supplier but I’ve seen and heard so many horror stories about their solar/EV/heat pump installs I would steer very much clear and get a reliable local installer to do the work instead.
Good stuff Jordan. The recent Aussie Goverment announcement of V2X approval and the updates to Aus Standard docs is a big step here, but also around the world, with lots of countries following suit. We're a long way behind EV adoption, compared to the UK but the influx of Chinese brands with V2X, and Govt incentives for home batteries, interesting times ahead. This is great news with our huge solar uptake. Cheers
I for one am waiting for v2x… downunder… solar and batteries are in the house already… and for me I will be replacing one vehicle shortly with an EV… I’m trying to hold off until v2 home is a reality…
This is the tech that I have really been waiting for before moving to an EV downunder. My ICE car should have 10 years in it with the low km I do, so I will happily see this develop and hopefully drop in relative cost and have many more brand options by the time I am going to move to it. Around then my PW2 will be approaching EOL as well so it would be a total solution upgrade. Exciting to see it's happening.
Curious about how the serving electrical utility feels about this fast charging - a 25kW load is no joke for a residence! At least over here across the pond in the US, they would frown upon that, or at least upcharge considerably for a large transformer, etc. Great video - thanks for sharing this! Also like you mentioned, the car battery is a huge reservoir of power - say it's at the 75 kwH capacity - and the residence is on low-use mode during a power outtage of like 3kw - that's about 20 hours of backup (assuming the car gets down to about 20% charge left)!
PV, both grid and home energy storage systems can power the DC Charger to achieve a rated power of 25kW. At the same time you can limit the power taken from the grid without exceeding the maximum power supplied by the grid. The prerequisite is that you need to install PV, or have a relatively large home storage battery.
It's simple, plug and play. It mainly depends on whether you have space reserved at the top of your original installation and the distance between the EV and the SigenStor. Currently the longest DC Charger cable length is 10 meters.
My understanding is that with CCS, the charger negotiates with the car, and then the car connects the DC pins directly to the battery.... so how can the car stop the charger using the battery for V2H? I guess it can monitor and literally cut off the contactors if it wants, but it feels like we're closer than you might think...?
No need for 3 phase. You would need at least one battery unit, the DC charger, and the controller on top. Imagine you’d want more than one battery unit though.
I'm going through the process atm for this system and was told to get the 12kw dc charger as the 25kw one would put too much strain on my 100 amp fuse coming into the house (single phase)
I have been waiting for this to arrive, leased a Nissan Ariya this year and it has the capability but not the software (yet). I would only go with a minimal size home battery, with 87kwh in the car, why go bigger in the house?
Yes it does give 24kW. I tested it with several EV. Unfortunately we Couldn't yet get V2X working on iD4 and EV9. It's work on both sides for software. The 12kW unit might be more cost effective for most.
Will this work with a nissan leaf? Because you could essentially buy a 30kwh home battery for £4k... just leave the leaf on your driveway all the time... and if that is possible could you then have a second charger unit installed to suck the energy from the leaf battery? Love the channel BTW.
For working on the CCS protocol, for the moment, the standard doesn't allow bidirectionnal charging (current flowing from the EV to the charger, which means negative current flow), only ChadeMo permits that natively. It's only a software thing, but maybe it can be problematic for hardware inside the car, most HVDC relays are polarized, so the current flow cannot be reversed. So this bidirectional charger will maybe never fullfill its V2G promise, and if it will, some cars will be compatible, some not.
@@LambdaWave84so that isn't bidirectional charging? Where is the power coming from if not the HV battery? Yes, it is going through the on board charger, the same as what happens the other way when you recharge the car off AC, would that not qualify as bidirectional charging through the CCS2 standard?
FYI, this has existed for like a decade with ChaDeMo and nissan leaf and also the Mitsubishi Outlander. In fact, the Outlander will even run the gas engine as a generator when using the V2L ports (not sure about when using the ChaDeMo) so you can run your fridge for days as the battery would getvlow, the engine cycles on for a bit to top up the battery and then would cycle off again. Thia bi-directional charging is neat but it's like 5 grand when a good quality extentuon cable is like 100 bucks and is vendor agnostic.
Really don’t need this rate of charge for my EV at home. Ideally a 7 to 12 kWh charge rate would be fine however the V2H feature would be a winner for me.
Very interesting, do the Sigenergy batteries integrate with the other batteries in the house? I'm having a 3 phase Sunny island system installed at my farm in the French Pyrenees with 45Kwh batteries and 40Kwc solar panels roof and Deger solar tracker and am looking at the new SMA eCharger bidirectional charger. The problem here is finding a good installer. I find the French work slovenly and negligent (now matter how much money you throw at them). It a large company (Vinci Group), which I thought would be good, but apart from from some grand bla bla bla they're useless: class A bungellers.
Hi, how much would it be ruffly this SigenStor? If possible, to price up a fully installed system with solar. I am interested in the entry level price. Thanks
If there is a power cut, and I disconnect my grid at the CU. Connect my MG4 into a plug in the garage/house, set the car to discharge (2kwh) will the Growatt inverter and home batteries "see" the car as if it were the grid - and therefore allow me to run the house on the growatt inverter and home batteries with 3kwh discharge + car 2kwh or would the car kill the growatt and the home batteries. Love to know what the technical reasons to NOT do this are. If that were possible the car could discharge and "subsidise" the home batteries!
some sort of standard of systems communication will have to be brought in, as for charging plugs. If companies can't do it, the Gov will have to introduce standards .
add flywheel system (big roller), put the car on the "stand" making a big flywheel spin, the wheels of the car were made for "it", works with any make/model, also the communication problem is not the talking but security, which in reality has been solved, even a microprocessor can do webserver, just add RS-485, just need encryption which the raspberry pi pico w 2 can do. (has trustzone which is like TPM)
It would be neat to see if Ford would let this work with the lightning and it's bi-directional capabilities but I have no idea this is available in North America
25kw is great on the input side as 2x8kwh packs be recharged in 45mins but push that back grid €0.25/kWh and you send 32kwh back in 2hrs then just made €8+ for 2hrs of power
Killing your car battery for powering your house i dont think so .And Zaptec is coming with a cheap charger that dos the same .And i own 23 sunpannels that are maken 2 kw a day in the winter so thats crap
the most clever idea is to create inverter to convert 240V to 400V to convert single phase to 3 phase in every property or other place that have the single phase main Service head coming in then to use the 3 phase for EV and PV
Thing is that install must be over £100000 + the EV. It still seems very much a luxury rather than a viable option for joe bloggs. The space required is still large for solar, the battery backup kit is becoming very interesting. Charging off peak and using battery power, well until everyone is doing the same and the peak times change😂
8:02 thats not true even AC Ev-chargers display the % of the car battery and done so for years, well at least the ones i know does. If i remember correctly without looking up the ccs standart the battery percentage should be communicated over the extra pins off the cable
I thought V2L / V2H was already a thing, at least in the USA it is, maybe not elsewhere. The cars have been capable of it, but limited by legislation during the role out. The charger you describe seems to have a quite large battery pack, would you even need vehicle to home when you have that significant battery storage under the charger itself? Seems like about the same as syphoning fuel out of a car to run a generator. You'd need to make sure you refuelled before going on your next drive. I can see the advantage with the fast charging. If it is charging an internal battery, then grabbing that power to fast charge makes more sense though. Especially in installations where maybe there is limited capacity from the grid, which may limit a standard charger to 20 or 30 amps. With this you could charge the batteries, then by able to charge your car at higher speed.
So where would a normal household pull the 25kw from? If I was to have solar, then it wouldn’t be enough to pump enough into the amount of batteries that would be needed. If you’re getting it from the grid then my 100A fuse would go pop 🤷♂️
I’m all for the green revolution, and I’m excited by new tech such as V2G but more often than not your installs, including solar installations, look so (unnecessarily) expensive. I worry that this will put off your average, on-the-fence, consumer. I would love to see more cost effective, and less tech-sexy installs to let people know it’s effortless to move to EV and solar. Think we need to win hearts before overwhelm. What’s the cheapest but best quality installation you can do.
It’s less that this is the future of EV charging and hopefully more the future of the grid in general. This tech can raise demand at traditionally quiet times. This tech can provide generation at traditionally busy times. Push out to the right level and we can reach a situation where demand - or load on traditional generation sources - is flat. If we get rid of the peaks, we get rid of gas generation, which makes supply far cheaper for everyone involved. If we fill in the troughs, it makes base generation far more cost effective. Instead of very costly pumped hydro, we can just use EVs to provide the buffering.
Another great benefit of V2H/V2G is the ability to participate in FCAS (Frequency Control Auxiliary Service), where your EV is not just a consumer product, but can help you earn money. Now is discussing a V2X Ready battery standard, which greatly provides the number of cycles of the power battery. Typically, a 100kWh car battery can travel 700km and 1.5 million kilometers in 3,000 cycles (which far exceeds the needs of a family car). Therefore EV batteries are technically capable of providing auxiliary services such as V2H and FCAS. This is also an important means to enhance the competitiveness of EV. This depends largely on the attitude of individual EV manufacturers, and market competition should accelerate the process.
I thought the vehicle to Grid Charging or ‘Battery expansion’ was already possible on Tesla Powerwall 2/3 and Backup Gateway 2/3 , but only in USA/Canada, I do remember reading it required you to have a Tesla Wall Connector for it to be compatible (and likely a Tesla vehicle), I found some _interesting_ settings in the Tesla Pro/One app that seem to back that up also; if only the legislation would hurry up and get sorted out… although I won’t get my hopes up; with the amount of time it’s taking for example for e-scooters to be legal in the UK when they’re legal in almost every other European country 😂😢. Good video btw 👍
The lack of standards shows that EV technology has been a 21st century 'gold rush'. It's a complete no-brainer to have energy arbitrage from vehicle to home and from home to grid. A cold snap is coming. People are going to be staying at home rather than travelling. Repurposing the energy that was going to be used for travel to warming and powering the home makes complete sense and has the potential to flatten the peak in demand on the grid that this weather event causes. Those who prepare best reap the greatest rewards from arbitrage. However, from my brief time working on a government funded EV charging project, I understand that the main problem in the UK is that a high proportion of UK homes don't have on-premise parking and thus people can't charge their EVs at home. We have had minimal investment in public power capacity, and it is prohibitively expensive to install 3 phase power at scale, so there simply isn't electrical infrastructure to deliver large scale EV charging on the street. The obvious thing to do here is not to create a huge centralised EV charging system, rather, to decentralise it and also have vehicle to vehicle arbitrage. One vehicle without enough power for its next planned journey is then able to negotiate with and purchase electricity from other vehicles in the vicinity that have more than they need. This can typically be done overnight so that the amperage can be relatively low and cabling can be relatively lightweight. This could be delivered through social enterprises - it doesn't need to involve the "big 6" electricity companies. I would much rather invest in mobile power than fixed power. When I'm away from home a large proportion of my electricity consumption goes with me, and it makes sense for my associated battery capacity to travel with me. Just like a professional photographer takes spare battery packs on a wedding shoot, it would make sense for me to hook up my home battery storage in a trailer to my car to extend my car's range, reduce journey times and make me less dependent on expensive fast chargers. There's so much more that we can do, provided we ditch the 'gold rush' mentality and adopt the necessary 'save our planet' mentality instead.
Interesting, but massive overkill. I have a V2G charger but it's Chademo and it only works with a Nissan Leaf or their electric van. It's capable of 32A but limited to 16A due G99 allowance. Still caters for most of my needs. Does that thing take 25kW from the grid? That would just blow my supply fuse right off the bat!
Sigenergy seems to be the best in terms of their bms and mix and match battery stacks. Not many uk stockists yet Powerland one. Giventhe uk government is now paying millions to have wind farms turned off when there is a surplus the whole virtual power plant should be addressed asap. Octopus seem to be pushing this. It's all about balancing the grid. Cheap or free electricity when in surplus and get paid to take from car and home storage at peak times!
It’s all pure stupidity! The SA government in Australia is now charging a penalty for returning power to the grid ! ( due to the fact that too much causes an instability… and the power in that state is horrible and the most expensive!!
Depends on the tariff. I am with Amber electric (they give you access to the wholesale rates) Penalty is around $0.01 per kWh. Have a look at the SA Power Networks RELE2W tariff. Only works well if you have batteries. You get a $0.12 bonus FIT in warmer months.
@@PeteAUS1983 the stupidity is amazing , the multi systems just to keep a “ renewable” system which cost a lot more in carbon dollars just to keep your chinese CCP mates happy is shocking
At first I thought v2g was a great idea, however, after thinking a bit more I'm not so sure. Do you really want to put all that extra ware on the expensive high power to weight battery in your car, reducing it life. Would you not be better putting that extra load on a cheaper home lower power to weight battery in your home. If you are thinking it's just for emergencies, then in the UK I'm not sure that makes that much sense, we don't get frequent power outages like other countries.
This all sounds great in an ideal world for normal customers. But surely big energy firms that are getting huge bonuses each year at the expense of us aren’t going to be up or us being more in control of our own energy?
I think this is a great idea, but I do not like the idea of supporting the grid - that is the responsibility of the generators and distribution network - there is no way they would pay sufficient to cover the true cost of using your car batteries to support the grid, I can see manufacturers coming out with very restrictive terms and conditions if you "power the grid from your car".. Using it to power your home is where it should stop. I like the notion of the selective charging between the battery string and the EVDC. I would imaging the technology is here, its about controlled discharge - the vehicle manufacturers need to comply with various regulations around the world and they need this to not cause issues with the car systems and battery. One thing Jordon - if it is introduced here, which it will be despite my personal reservations (the grid not home), how are the IET going to react? Your car is now a "power supply" and that will need to be accounted for in the Regs - they way they have been over reacting in the last few years I can swee them requiring every car that supplies power to the home to have its own earth rod!!
11:03 Scheduled DC charging: I do not agree that it's not working due to the communication protocol. This is 100% a setting / configuration item in the Sigenergy... Why? In stead of AC charging where the car has the charger and limits the charging current, with DC, the car only uses the contactors. I.e. it does not and also cannot control the direction of the current or limit it. That can only be done by the source: the Sigenergy charger. When the Voltage is higher, the car battery charges; and vice versa for V2G So, Scheduled charging is simple: increase the Voltage to the battery charge Voltage, and voila, you have Scheduled charging. But nevertheless, this is a very interesting device!
Sigen's AC Charger has implemented time-based charging. DC charging can't be initiated from the charger side because of protocol limitations, it needs to be confirmed on the EV. There was good advice earlier about plugging into the charger, initiating charging, and charging with very little power to maintain the link. Thinking logically, this is an easy feature to implement and would make all users happy, so why wouldn't Sigenergy want to offer it?
I have never heard such nonsense, let me put down 300k to save a few pence. Wild. Never build a battery bank and solar that can't meet your daily needs, using your car is the most stupid thing I have ever heard. Buy a generator for emergency situations couple of hundred quid
Tesla/Other EV manufacturers opening this up would be suicide for battery warranty. It’s not going to happen, too much risk for the health of the vehicle battery.
.Why would you want to shorten the life of your car battery by feeding it back to the house or grid . And just imagine you have a power cut, middle of winter and use your car battery to power the house. You then find the power cut is longer than you think .But you can’t drive to the shops because your car battery is flat . What a load of rubbish
So the rich people that can afford these set ups are setting up for off grid avoiding more payments while the rest that can't afford them carry on suffering makes sense
Today I have A setup with solar roof, output max 3*230V AC, 8 kw, and a dum battery” that can only charge 1 phase, from surplus of solar AC-DC-AC. Also I have a KIA EV6, that serves as a one phase manual emergency power in case of grid-loss, all legal with 1-0-2 Switch, serving up to 1*16 A 230V. Will it be possible skip the “dum battery”, and connect this solution, and will it be possible to take the one phase from the KIA through the new battery, and do V2H that way - an with output in 3 phases. If so, I’m in for testing and you’re welcome to come and install this in Copenhagen. Free Tivoli tickets included🤔😉😎🇩🇰🇩🇰🇩🇰
EV's have there own waranty with battery cycles right? and thats for normal day use. driving the vihicle.. i guess you lose your waranty on your car if you gonna hook it up as a storage unit.. thats why the EV manufacturers are not implementing the option. and its gonna take a long time till they do..
Fantastic news long term, but as long as IOG keep their import (7p)/ export (15p) rates as they are. For the vast majority you may as well use the grid as your additional battery. Grid outages are very very rare even out in the middle of nowhere.
Hi Jordan well done you keep it up you are doing a great job and having fun making some brilliant videos superstar Ali Walsall west midlands england junction 10 m6 Walsall churckery up the walsall I think early 2025
Bloody great to see this finally being implemented, can't come soon enough in my books.
Definitely! 👍
Sigenstor 5 in 1 will be on my list it simplifies the whole home storage, back up, EV charging and Solar PV setup. Very informative video
Hi Jordan, this is what I'm looking for. In the not so distant future, households will be looking to have 2 or more EVs. This solves the problem of having to decide which car to plug in. It also means that a car can arrive with a low state of charge and get up to a usable state by next morning. Taxi drivers in particular could do with this.
Business owners could run their EV fleets more effectively with such a solution as well, depending on the setup and use case.
Absolutely 👍
I imagine the car manufacturers will be quite hesitant about this, as using the car battery to support home loads will potentially put a lot more cycles into it, and thus increase the chances of it failing / dropping sufficient capacity to be replaced under warranty...
The t&c's are going to be the issue..
I suspect if manufacturers allow it, it will be limited in some way, or the battery warranty will shift from miles/km to kWh
Such a tiny load - not a major detriment to the battery.
The car manufacturers are resistant to open source bidirectional because they see it as a loss of revenue. In the States, only Ford, GM, and Tesla allow it for their trucks, and their home units all proprietary. This issue will only be solved with government regulation.
So we will waiting for the Germans (EU) to mandate it like Apple and type C usb then?
Standard non-spirited driving is also relatively low loads.. Cycles matter
Pulling 10kWh off a battery every night is the equivalent to about 22000km/14000mi per annum.
Doesn't Nissan EV's already allow V2G?
yes
Yes they do and the phev mitsubishi outlander
The Nissan Leaf has been bidirectional for the last 10 years or more, and we used a Setec 6kw Mobile Power Station to run our heating system for the last 2 years, and we could take it camping, and we could use it to charge another EV at the road side. But it is old tech compared to this, so really interested if Sigenergy offers this Bidirectional function on their single phase version. Because our Setec has developed a fault, and there is no one around who can repair it, which of course adds another dimension to all this new tech, whose going to repair it when it goes wrong?
My VW id5 says it has bidirectional charging and VW announced they were v2x ready with their Id fleet middle of the year , it would be interesting to plug in a Vw Id to your customer to check , if they fill up battery to drive back home I might be able to drive to take chance , there is a good chance I’ll buy the sigenstor if it works
Don’t bet on it. VW have been promising this feature since before I bought my Buzz in 2022. Wouldn’t expect it any time soon 🤬
It was delivered via a software update in ME 3.7 I think.
It’s in the menu and has a limit of bidirectional charging it can do , 10000kwh , I’m interested to see if sig energy already talk to the VW in the launage Jordan talked about , at the end of the day this is in use in Australia what’s to stop it talking in the uk
We might be further ahead than everyone thinks and I can’t see why it can’t be used as it’s by right our equipment , I’m guessing it’s the Gov trying to find a way of taxing it , as they won’t be able to as it’s off grid essentially
My Skoda Enyaq already has V2G options and metering built into the Infotainment system. Can't wait for chargers like this to become more common place. Does the 22kw EV charging require a 3 phase supply?
No it’s DC so it’s just like a public charger
@@nickstocker4834 ah, yeah, but where is that DC sourced from? Batteries alone or from the mains alone, or a combination? A big solar array may cover you in the day but not at other times. You are unlikely to be charging at 25kw (not 22) from single phase if you only have smaller batteries in the house because you have the car battery as you main home battery.
@guyb7995 my understanding is that it's up to 25kW, and that's from using the combination of battery, grid and solar.
@ that would certainly make sense. 25k + any house load from grid alone would take out a 100A supply fuse, right?
@@MrWobling Yep. Assuming the incoming voltage is actually 230, you would have a 109A load for the charger alone + another 10-50 for a typical house (depending on what they have running).
I know fuses don't magically pop at their rated current, but that's a fair bit over 100, and a flat EV would hold that load for a long time.
I can hear the complaints now ‘eeehhhh that charger states 25kw but I’m only getting 24.7kw’ 😂
😂😂😂
Humanity.....
I love the sound of the Sigenergy system. I've been doing my research and it ticks so many boxes. I now need to find installers in West Yorkshire. The DC charging makes so much sense, especially when you can charge your car with excess from the PV. You could have almost free motoring for a good chunk of the year with a large enough array. Another reason to oversize when getting my install. My concern with V2H is it's so new and without a standard I fear early adopters my get left behind. I guess with this system at least you can possibly upgrade that part of the stack.
If you can export then solar is not free. I get 15p per kWh for export, I pay 8.5p per kWh to import off peak. So it would make sense to charge the car off peak as well, it would cost more to use solar.
@@TheRonskiman Fair point. As I learn more I realise you work out all the best strategies to maximise your ROI. Part of me has it in mind that I shouldn't rely on export tariffs though as those could change. At least with DV charging I know that I could use my excess solar to charge up a car/s.
@@GuyH77 It sort of threw my thinking on its head when I realised, you always think of solar as free electric, but its not if your paid to export it. If your planning a system then don't rely on export tariffs to calculate ROI (if your fussed about that), but once that system is installed maximising expert tariff's whilst keeping cycle life in mind can be a very good earner. I have a 6000 cycle life, or 1 cycle a day for over 16 years, I always fill my 29kWh battery on cheap Go, and export back to 15% by midnight, even in December my daily electric cost if a couple of £'s at most on a poor solar day. Over the year it even covers my gas usage (soon to fit an ASHP) with some profit for two years now.
We can help with your install 👍
What an amazing product.
This is the future.
I love V2x. It can't come soon enough, but EVs and home batteries both need software changes to make it work efficiently, especially to maximise the benefit from the swing in electricity prices through each day.
Mitsubishi outlander PHEV was bi directionally charged 9 years ago in Japan
VW is currently the only company official open up the ccs port. Everyone else is going Type 2 and AC bidirectional. Do you guys see it differently?
Did I miss the price along the way???
unacceptable
Surely, the car can schedule the charging and also chargers like the Zappi can schedule the charging. You said that you can’t currently to grid charging so what happens if you connect the V2L to your house consumer unit and let it trickle charge the house battery storage, can that feed back into the grid?
Was the DNO happy to issue the G99 certificate?
It’s a bit different with DC charging vs AC
Just out of interest, how much would a setup like that cost, with all those solar panels and all the backup batteries and DC to DC charging
Does sigenergy also allow an ac charger to be installed with the system as well, as car manufacturers often recommend frequent AC charging to maintain battery condition?
Very interesting, great to support the heat pump over winter.
Just got my first EV, BMW I4, and currently looking at a solar + battery solution with Octopus Energy as the supplier as they currently offer very cheap "intelligent charging" rates which you mentioned right at the end of the video.
What's your advice on taking the plunge in to a solar + battery solution now, Vs waiting say 6-12 months to see how the market reacts and new solutions that become available?
Octopus are great as an energy supplier but I’ve seen and heard so many horror stories about their solar/EV/heat pump installs I would steer very much clear and get a reliable local installer to do the work instead.
Great stuff! One suggestion. Revisit this to show how long/fast it would charge *purely* on solar - without relying on the grid.
Brilliant, this is the way to go.
But how much??
Good stuff Jordan. The recent Aussie Goverment announcement of V2X approval and the updates to Aus Standard docs is a big step here, but also around the world, with lots of countries following suit. We're a long way behind EV adoption, compared to the UK but the influx of Chinese brands with V2X, and Govt incentives for home batteries, interesting times ahead. This is great news with our huge solar uptake. Cheers
Thanks Jim!
I for one am waiting for v2x… downunder… solar and batteries are in the house already… and for me I will be replacing one vehicle shortly with an EV… I’m trying to hold off until v2 home is a reality…
@andrewpowell2035 will be interesting to see what's on offer and the talks at the March Everything Show in Sydney. Cheers@@andrewpowell2035
I wonder if one could link an existing server rack battery to the signergy battery?
This is the tech that I have really been waiting for before moving to an EV downunder. My ICE car should have 10 years in it with the low km I do, so I will happily see this develop and hopefully drop in relative cost and have many more brand options by the time I am going to move to it. Around then my PW2 will be approaching EOL as well so it would be a total solution upgrade. Exciting to see it's happening.
Curious about how the serving electrical utility feels about this fast charging - a 25kW load is no joke for a residence! At least over here across the pond in the US, they would frown upon that, or at least upcharge considerably for a large transformer, etc. Great video - thanks for sharing this! Also like you mentioned, the car battery is a huge reservoir of power - say it's at the 75 kwH capacity - and the residence is on low-use mode during a power outtage of like 3kw - that's about 20 hours of backup (assuming the car gets down to about 20% charge left)!
PV, both grid and home energy storage systems can power the DC Charger to achieve a rated power of 25kW. At the same time you can limit the power taken from the grid without exceeding the maximum power supplied by the grid.
The prerequisite is that you need to install PV, or have a relatively large home storage battery.
V2G has been viable for about 2 years now, however only with Nissan via Chademo!
Brilliant system,I would definitely consider this idea,merry Christmas everyone.
I have a Sigen Inverter and Battery stack. How difficult would it be to add this charger setup?
It's simple, plug and play. It mainly depends on whether you have space reserved at the top of your original installation and the distance between the EV and the SigenStor. Currently the longest DC Charger cable length is 10 meters.
My understanding is that with CCS, the charger negotiates with the car, and then the car connects the DC pins directly to the battery.... so how can the car stop the charger using the battery for V2H? I guess it can monitor and literally cut off the contactors if it wants, but it feels like we're closer than you might think...?
The car does monitor the current to the battery and if it's flowing the wrong way, will shut off the contractors, yes.
@@cmjones01 I wonder if all cars are clever enough to do so!! Looking at my terrible MG5 full of software bugs here....
Also, the CCS communication protocol hasn't until very recently included any way for the "charger" to request to draw current from the battery.
how many amps is it cus you could make it work on a schedule using smart switches
Do you need 3 phase at your home to take advantage of the 25kwh charging? Also what is the cost of this fully fitted?
No need for 3 phase. You would need at least one battery unit, the DC charger, and the controller on top. Imagine you’d want more than one battery unit though.
I'm going through the process atm for this system and was told to get the 12kw dc charger as the 25kw one would put too much strain on my 100 amp fuse coming into the house (single phase)
I have been waiting for this to arrive, leased a Nissan Ariya this year and it has the capability but not the software (yet). I would only go with a minimal size home battery, with 87kwh in the car, why go bigger in the house?
First I’ve seen of this in practice great stuff. Cracking job as usual 👍🏼👍🏼
Awesome, thank you!
Yes it does give 24kW. I tested it with several EV.
Unfortunately we Couldn't yet get V2X working on iD4 and EV9.
It's work on both sides for software.
The 12kW unit might be more cost effective for most.
Hi Great video, try a id buzz as they have bi-directional capabilities
hi is there a chademo version of the car charger module or is there only a ccs version?
Wallbox already have a Chademo in the form of the Quasar but the Chademo connection is slowly dying so I'd wait for CCS
Only the CCS version is currently available.
How do cable losses on this system compare to a normal AC home charging set up? Is 25kW slow enough there aren’t many heat losses?
Will this work with a nissan leaf? Because you could essentially buy a 30kwh home battery for £4k... just leave the leaf on your driveway all the time... and if that is possible could you then have a second charger unit installed to suck the energy from the leaf battery? Love the channel BTW.
For working on the CCS protocol, for the moment, the standard doesn't allow bidirectionnal charging (current flowing from the EV to the charger, which means negative current flow), only ChadeMo permits that natively.
It's only a software thing, but maybe it can be problematic for hardware inside the car, most HVDC relays are polarized, so the current flow cannot be reversed.
So this bidirectional charger will maybe never fullfill its V2G promise, and if it will, some cars will be compatible, some not.
Very true
So how does the BYD Seal manage V2L? A year ago a family in QLD Australia used their BYD Seal to power their sons dialysis machine
@brandonokeeffe1193 It outputs AC from an inverter embedded in the car, not DC
@@LambdaWave84so that isn't bidirectional charging? Where is the power coming from if not the HV battery? Yes, it is going through the on board charger, the same as what happens the other way when you recharge the car off AC, would that not qualify as bidirectional charging through the CCS2 standard?
Hmm. Continuous 100A through the 100A main fuse ? Will the DNO be at all concerned ?
Actually although the fuse is 100amps I believe 80amps is the preferred max.
Power cuts in the UK are very rare. Home battery would make more sense for most.
Fantastic job as always. Keep it up.
Thanks, will do!
What’s the maximum load that can be drawn from the EV?
Price wise, is a 3 phase 22kw charger not a better option if your car supports 22kwh ac. Not much differnt to 25kwh from a charging POV is it?
very few cars support 22kW ac
And all eVs support 25kW DC
@@charliew8378 Yes, that's the main reason.
FYI, this has existed for like a decade with ChaDeMo and nissan leaf and also the Mitsubishi Outlander.
In fact, the Outlander will even run the gas engine as a generator when using the V2L ports (not sure about when using the ChaDeMo) so you can run your fridge for days as the battery would getvlow, the engine cycles on for a bit to top up the battery and then would cycle off again.
Thia bi-directional charging is neat but it's like 5 grand when a good quality extentuon cable is like 100 bucks and is vendor agnostic.
Interesting. Use my tesla for business I'm doing 100k miles pa. This would be useful but what's the cost to purchase and install?
Kia/Hyundai are ready for V2G, the EV9/Ioniq 9 twins are available with V2G.
i have VTX working. Ionic 5 works fine with VTX
We had our old leef VTGing 3 years ago :)
What charge point did you get that will do that? Was it one of the early trial models?
@@artisanelectrics yep we had a unit from Octopus for the leaf, and we now have a different unit for the ionic because it's CCS. :)
Really don’t need this rate of charge for my EV at home. Ideally a 7 to 12 kWh charge rate would be fine however the V2H feature would be a winner for me.
Very interesting, do the Sigenergy batteries integrate with the other batteries in the house? I'm having a 3 phase Sunny island system installed at my farm in the French Pyrenees with 45Kwh batteries and 40Kwc solar panels roof and Deger solar tracker and am looking at the new SMA eCharger bidirectional charger. The problem here is finding a good installer. I find the French work slovenly and negligent (now matter how much money you throw at them). It a large company (Vinci Group), which I thought would be good, but apart from from some grand bla bla bla they're useless: class A bungellers.
Bring it on ASAP.
If your car supports V2L then can this charger power the.home by taking 3.6kWh from the car?
Hi, how much would it be ruffly this SigenStor? If possible, to price up a fully installed system with solar. I am interested in the entry level price. Thanks
FYI If you own a Mitsubishi outlander 2018/2019+ in the UK you can already send power from your EV to your home
If there is a power cut, and I disconnect my grid at the CU. Connect my MG4 into a plug in the garage/house, set the car to discharge (2kwh) will the Growatt inverter and home batteries "see" the car as if it were the grid - and therefore allow me to run the house on the growatt inverter and home batteries with 3kwh discharge + car 2kwh or would the car kill the growatt and the home batteries. Love to know what the technical reasons to NOT do this are. If that were possible the car could discharge and "subsidise" the home batteries!
some sort of standard of systems communication will have to be brought in, as for charging plugs. If companies can't do it, the Gov will have to introduce standards .
add flywheel system (big roller), put the car on the "stand" making a big flywheel spin, the wheels of the car were made for "it", works with any make/model,
also the communication problem is not the talking but security, which in reality has been solved, even a microprocessor can do webserver, just add RS-485,
just need encryption which the raspberry pi pico w 2 can do. (has trustzone which is like TPM)
It would be neat to see if Ford would let this work with the lightning and it's bi-directional capabilities but I have no idea this is available in North America
25kw is great on the input side as 2x8kwh packs be recharged in 45mins but push that back grid €0.25/kWh and you send 32kwh back in 2hrs then just made €8+ for 2hrs of power
Killing your car battery for powering your house i dont think so .And Zaptec is coming with a cheap charger that dos the same .And i own 23 sunpannels that are maken 2 kw a day in the winter so thats crap
the most clever idea is to create inverter to convert 240V to 400V to convert single phase to 3 phase in every property or other place that have the single phase main Service head coming in then to use the 3 phase for EV and PV
Aren't Renault doing bi directional?
Thing is that install must be over £100000 + the EV. It still seems very much a luxury rather than a viable option for joe bloggs. The space required is still large for solar, the battery backup kit is becoming very interesting. Charging off peak and using battery power, well until everyone is doing the same and the peak times change😂
8:02 thats not true even AC Ev-chargers display the % of the car battery and done so for years, well at least the ones i know does.
If i remember correctly without looking up the ccs standart the battery percentage should be communicated over the extra pins off the cable
I thought V2L / V2H was already a thing, at least in the USA it is, maybe not elsewhere. The cars have been capable of it, but limited by legislation during the role out.
The charger you describe seems to have a quite large battery pack, would you even need vehicle to home when you have that significant battery storage under the charger itself? Seems like about the same as syphoning fuel out of a car to run a generator. You'd need to make sure you refuelled before going on your next drive.
I can see the advantage with the fast charging. If it is charging an internal battery, then grabbing that power to fast charge makes more sense though. Especially in installations where maybe there is limited capacity from the grid, which may limit a standard charger to 20 or 30 amps. With this you could charge the batteries, then by able to charge your car at higher speed.
So where would a normal household pull the 25kw from? If I was to have solar, then it wouldn’t be enough to pump enough into the amount of batteries that would be needed. If you’re getting it from the grid then my 100A fuse would go pop 🤷♂️
I’m all for the green revolution, and I’m excited by new tech such as V2G but more often than not your installs, including solar installations, look so (unnecessarily) expensive. I worry that this will put off your average, on-the-fence, consumer. I would love to see more cost effective, and less tech-sexy installs to let people know it’s effortless to move to EV and solar.
Think we need to win hearts before overwhelm. What’s the cheapest but best quality installation you can do.
But You Need to Win The Lottery, To Afford all This
It’s less that this is the future of EV charging and hopefully more the future of the grid in general.
This tech can raise demand at traditionally quiet times. This tech can provide generation at traditionally busy times. Push out to the right level and we can reach a situation where demand - or load on traditional generation sources - is flat. If we get rid of the peaks, we get rid of gas generation, which makes supply far cheaper for everyone involved. If we fill in the troughs, it makes base generation far more cost effective. Instead of very costly pumped hydro, we can just use EVs to provide the buffering.
Another great benefit of V2H/V2G is the ability to participate in FCAS (Frequency Control Auxiliary Service), where your EV is not just a consumer product, but can help you earn money.
Now is discussing a V2X Ready battery standard, which greatly provides the number of cycles of the power battery.
Typically, a 100kWh car battery can travel 700km and 1.5 million kilometers in 3,000 cycles (which far exceeds the needs of a family car). Therefore EV batteries are technically capable of providing auxiliary services such as V2H and FCAS.
This is also an important means to enhance the competitiveness of EV. This depends largely on the attitude of individual EV manufacturers, and market competition should accelerate the process.
Just waiting for the Enphase solution to this. Somebody had one installed on the Facebook forum.
In answer to your question 2025 for sure
I thought the vehicle to Grid Charging or ‘Battery expansion’ was already possible on Tesla Powerwall 2/3 and Backup Gateway 2/3 , but only in USA/Canada, I do remember reading it required you to have a Tesla Wall Connector for it to be compatible (and likely a Tesla vehicle), I found some _interesting_ settings in the Tesla Pro/One app that seem to back that up also; if only the legislation would hurry up and get sorted out… although I won’t get my hopes up; with the amount of time it’s taking for example for e-scooters to be legal in the UK when they’re legal in almost every other European country 😂😢. Good video btw 👍
Definitely! Thanks for watching
Im surprised we don’t just put a 7kW bidirectional inverter,,, since home EVSE is just a glorified relay it would happily push power back.
Isn't Renault floating bidirectional with the new 5?
If the 5 can do it, Megane, Scenic and 4 should also do it. They all work on the same platform.
@@gordonmackenzie4512 I was considering a Megane E-tech to replace my Zoe...It didn't even have V2L... maybe an upgrade later?
The lack of standards shows that EV technology has been a 21st century 'gold rush'. It's a complete no-brainer to have energy arbitrage from vehicle to home and from home to grid. A cold snap is coming. People are going to be staying at home rather than travelling. Repurposing the energy that was going to be used for travel to warming and powering the home makes complete sense and has the potential to flatten the peak in demand on the grid that this weather event causes. Those who prepare best reap the greatest rewards from arbitrage.
However, from my brief time working on a government funded EV charging project, I understand that the main problem in the UK is that a high proportion of UK homes don't have on-premise parking and thus people can't charge their EVs at home. We have had minimal investment in public power capacity, and it is prohibitively expensive to install 3 phase power at scale, so there simply isn't electrical infrastructure to deliver large scale EV charging on the street. The obvious thing to do here is not to create a huge centralised EV charging system, rather, to decentralise it and also have vehicle to vehicle arbitrage. One vehicle without enough power for its next planned journey is then able to negotiate with and purchase electricity from other vehicles in the vicinity that have more than they need. This can typically be done overnight so that the amperage can be relatively low and cabling can be relatively lightweight. This could be delivered through social enterprises - it doesn't need to involve the "big 6" electricity companies.
I would much rather invest in mobile power than fixed power. When I'm away from home a large proportion of my electricity consumption goes with me, and it makes sense for my associated battery capacity to travel with me. Just like a professional photographer takes spare battery packs on a wedding shoot, it would make sense for me to hook up my home battery storage in a trailer to my car to extend my car's range, reduce journey times and make me less dependent on expensive fast chargers. There's so much more that we can do, provided we ditch the 'gold rush' mentality and adopt the necessary 'save our planet' mentality instead.
I guess if you had a long blackout you could take your ev to a rapid charger somewhere else and use it to bring the power home!
Interesting, but massive overkill. I have a V2G charger but it's Chademo and it only works with a Nissan Leaf or their electric van. It's capable of 32A but limited to 16A due G99 allowance. Still caters for most of my needs. Does that thing take 25kW from the grid? That would just blow my supply fuse right off the bat!
Sigenergy seems to be the best in terms of their bms and mix and match battery stacks. Not many uk stockists yet Powerland one. Giventhe uk government is now paying millions to have wind farms turned off when there is a surplus the whole virtual power plant should be addressed asap. Octopus seem to be pushing this. It's all about balancing the grid. Cheap or free electricity when in surplus and get paid to take from car and home storage at peak times!
It’s all pure stupidity! The SA government in Australia is now charging a penalty for returning power to the grid ! ( due to the fact that too much causes an instability… and the power in that state is horrible and the most expensive!!
Depends on the tariff. I am with Amber electric (they give you access to the wholesale rates)
Penalty is around $0.01 per kWh.
Have a look at the SA Power Networks RELE2W tariff. Only works well if you have batteries.
You get a $0.12 bonus FIT in warmer months.
So this would come in handy then..dump daytime solar into the car. Export and get paid at night. Repeat.
@@PeteAUS1983 the stupidity is amazing , the multi systems just to keep a “ renewable” system which cost a lot more in carbon dollars just to keep your chinese CCP mates happy is shocking
@@PeteAUS1983 we get paid 2.3c per kw!
@@alphamegansw at the moment the solar FIT is 0.39 so the battery is dumping into the grid
At first I thought v2g was a great idea, however, after thinking a bit more I'm not so sure. Do you really want to put all that extra ware on the expensive high power to weight battery in your car, reducing it life. Would you not be better putting that extra load on a cheaper home lower power to weight battery in your home. If you are thinking it's just for emergencies, then in the UK I'm not sure that makes that much sense, we don't get frequent power outages like other countries.
This all sounds great in an ideal world for normal customers. But surely big energy firms that are getting huge bonuses each year at the expense of us aren’t going to be up or us being more in control of our own energy?
But what if you let them control it? 💰
@ I don’t follow
6:10 i hope these are not the tesla drivers that have stiill free supercharging, if so i bet tesla will pretty fast end free supercharging for all
I thought a hand full already do bi direction charging Hyundai and Nisan Kia and BYD and ford lightning
Great system but beyond the affordability of most and I’m already a solar battery consumer
yeeesssss Fam!!!!
👊
A great video 👍 any idea of price of this product ?
I think this is a great idea, but I do not like the idea of supporting the grid - that is the responsibility of the generators and distribution network - there is no way they would pay sufficient to cover the true cost of using your car batteries to support the grid, I can see manufacturers coming out with very restrictive terms and conditions if you "power the grid from your car".. Using it to power your home is where it should stop. I like the notion of the selective charging between the battery string and the EVDC. I would imaging the technology is here, its about controlled discharge - the vehicle manufacturers need to comply with various regulations around the world and they need this to not cause issues with the car systems and battery.
One thing Jordon - if it is introduced here, which it will be despite my personal reservations (the grid not home), how are the IET going to react? Your car is now a "power supply" and that will need to be accounted for in the Regs - they way they have been over reacting in the last few years I can swee them requiring every car that supplies power to the home to have its own earth rod!!
Play us a tune on that guitar Jordan..
😆👍
11:03 Scheduled DC charging: I do not agree that it's not working due to the communication protocol. This is 100% a setting / configuration item in the Sigenergy...
Why? In stead of AC charging where the car has the charger and limits the charging current, with DC, the car only uses the contactors. I.e. it does not and also cannot control the direction of the current or limit it. That can only be done by the source: the Sigenergy charger. When the Voltage is higher, the car battery charges; and vice versa for V2G
So, Scheduled charging is simple: increase the Voltage to the battery charge Voltage, and voila, you have Scheduled charging.
But nevertheless, this is a very interesting device!
Sigen's AC Charger has implemented time-based charging.
DC charging can't be initiated from the charger side because of protocol limitations, it needs to be confirmed on the EV. There was good advice earlier about plugging into the charger, initiating charging, and charging with very little power to maintain the link.
Thinking logically, this is an easy feature to implement and would make all users happy, so why wouldn't Sigenergy want to offer it?
I have never heard such nonsense, let me put down 300k to save a few pence. Wild. Never build a battery bank and solar that can't meet your daily needs, using your car is the most stupid thing I have ever heard. Buy a generator for emergency situations couple of hundred quid
Tesla/Other EV manufacturers opening this up would be suicide for battery warranty. It’s not going to happen, too much risk for the health of the vehicle battery.
Fine if you can afford the outlay and , as mentioned, are young enough to recover the outlay and don't live in flats or property that will allow this.
.Why would you want to shorten the life of your car battery by feeding it back to the house or grid . And just imagine you have a power cut, middle of winter and use your car battery to power the house. You then find the power cut is longer than you think .But you can’t drive to the shops because your car battery is flat . What a load of rubbish
So the rich people that can afford these set ups are setting up for off grid avoiding more payments while the rest that can't afford them carry on suffering makes sense
Today I have A setup with solar roof, output max 3*230V AC, 8 kw, and a dum battery” that can only charge 1 phase, from surplus of solar AC-DC-AC.
Also I have a KIA EV6, that serves as a one phase manual emergency power in case of grid-loss, all legal with 1-0-2 Switch, serving up to 1*16 A 230V.
Will it be possible skip the “dum battery”, and connect this solution, and will it be possible to take the one phase from the KIA through the new battery, and do V2H that way - an with output in 3 phases. If so, I’m in for testing and you’re welcome to come and install this in Copenhagen. Free Tivoli tickets included🤔😉😎🇩🇰🇩🇰🇩🇰
EV's have there own waranty with battery cycles right? and thats for normal day use. driving the vihicle.. i guess you lose your waranty on your car if you gonna hook it up as a storage unit.. thats why the EV manufacturers are not implementing the option. and its gonna take a long time till they do..
Nothing new here. Been running my house from my MG Marvel for the last 2 years. Charge the car via solar then discharge from the car battery. Simples.
i can charge my car with 22kw over type 2 AC
Power a heat pump.
Fantastic news long term, but as long as IOG keep their import (7p)/ export (15p) rates as they are. For the vast majority you may as well use the grid as your additional battery. Grid outages are very very rare even out in the middle of nowhere.
Hi Jordan well done you keep it up you are doing a great job and having fun making some brilliant videos superstar Ali Walsall west midlands england junction 10 m6 Walsall churckery up the walsall I think early 2025
Thanks so much