@@larry2447A lot of owners don’t have any or only partial hull insurance. So there is a bit of an incentive to save the aircraft. We carried about half the value hull insurance on our 150
Another terribly sad report, but as ever, Juan gives us a clear and unemotional description of events as far as they are known, informed by his expert piloting experience. Your work is so much appreciated, Juan. I can’t help but think of the family whose lives and future Christmases will never be the same again.
He's in the worst place for lake effect snow in the entire northeast. Buffalo gets twice as much snow as Toronto, just across Lake Ontario. It's sheltered by the Oak Ridge Moraine.
@@kevinbarry71 - I live north of Toronto, in an area other Ontarians call "The Snow Belt". We get Buffalo-level snow here and we still drive our cars on the lake.
so? were you there??? Do you even fly in the area of the Great Lakes in the winter??? I live nearby... on that day, there was a low level broken layer (lake effect), blue skies above. Airmet for "possible icing in cloud" is standard and exists all winter long (but there was NO cloud up at the altitude he was cruising at, he was VFR over the top)... I do not believe he was in any cloud until the engine started acting up and he started down, drilling holes through whatever clouds got in his way. You are assuming, and thus, making an a$$ of yourself. Looks like he was totally in control until the actual landing (which went bad, for some reason). The engine failed for unknown reasons, he handled it well and remained in control on the way down, until the landing, which seems to have gone badly for unknown reasons. Maybe stop thinking you know it all???
I guess I was too big a chicken in my 40+ years of flying, the last 27 of which was in a BE-55 Baron, to put myself in such a position. Fortunately, I could decide when it was time to pull out the credit card, check in to a motel or hotel, have a nice meal, maybe two or three, and continue when the weather got better. And here I am...fat, dumb, and happy in retirement.
Wonderful channel Juan. 50 Year veteran retired pro. Love to watch regular watcher kind of brings back some of those memories. The guy handled the situation like a pro best I could tell. Great coverage great channel!
The examiner who signed off my instrument rating when I was a young tyke told me a single engine instrument rating isn’t a license to go out and fly hard IFR on purpose. It’s a license to get yourself out of trouble. That being said with some experience comes judgement and for those of us who survived getting said judgement we all know the difference between what I call a “practice” day and a day that is best left to the professionals. My condolences to his family.
Juan provides a great service with his channel, especially with the admonitions to straighten up and fly right. The only drawback is if you follow the channel closely you'd think airplanes are crashing left and right 🥴
This unfortunate chap just ran out of altitude. RIP Great work as always Juan, to inform the viewer - which hopefully includes pilots who can learn from the experiences of others.
Why can't we GA pilots just live by these simple rules? STAY OUT OF THE CLOUDS WHEN ICING CONDITIONS EXIST! The other rule is, STAY AWAY FROM THUNDERSTORMS... There is another simple rule when you have a mechanical problem: GET THE AIRPLANE ON THE GROUND, IMMEDIATELY! Do not wait.
were you there??? How do you know he was in ice? I live nearby... there wa low level broken layer, blue kies above. Airmet for possible light rime in cloud... doe not mean he was in the cloud until he started down, drilling holes through whatever clouds got in his way. You are assuming, and thu making an a$$ of yourself. Looks like we was totally in control until the actual landing (which went bad, for some reason).
My Family lives near Lake Erie and I don't even drive my car up there from the South this time of year, let alone a 1967 airplane 12K feet in the air......just breaks my heart.
Those alternate air doors often get forgotten about. Saw an engine recently where the spring was broken, allowing unfiltered air in for who knows how long. The cylinder walls were polished smooth.
I hope that the general aviation pilots watching this note the brief moments of exasperation which creep into Juan's telling of this tale (and others).
He might just be the time to do the checks, pulling and releasing the alternate air handle, to make sure it wasn't icing? Or too hard to swallow to have taken risks and failed, and he can't admit it..
@@Ficon were you there??? How do you know he was in ice or solid IMC? I live nearby... there was a low level broken layer (lake effect), blue skies above. Airmet for possible light rime in cloud (but there was no cloud up at the altitude he was cruising at, he was VFR over the top)... I do not believe he was in any cloud until he started down, drilling holes through whatever clouds got in his way. You are assuming, and thu, making an a$$ of yourself. Looks like he was totally in control until the actual landing (which went bad, for some reason). The engine failed for unknown reasons, he handled it well and remained in control on the way down, until the landing, which seems to have gone badly for unknown reasons. Maybe stop thinking you know it all???
Thanks again for a great video. I found it strange that the second controller was suggesting a road rather than field. I believe a field is the better alternative since less likely to have wires and traffic.
I was thinking it may be a winter practicality thing. A (partially?) cleared road is probably going to be easier to identify than a specific field, when almost everything is white.
I flew for years out of 9G0. The areas south of Buffalo are part of the snow belt region and his best option would have been a road like US 219 or US 20A.
The New York State thruway is 2 lanes in each direction separated by a wide median, wide shoulders, and rarely any overhead wires or close trees, and it would be plowed. Any field would look smooth but could hide any obstacles. East Aurora got 4 feet of snow three weeks ago, no idea how much is still on the ground.
This brings back a vivid memory of a very similar situation I had many years ago in a 231 Mooney, except my family was aboard. Traveling south from Laramie toward Pueblo (final destination Durango) at 12,000’, no airframe icing but some iced condensation on the inside of the windows when I saw the airspeed dropping first, then the MP dropping. The autopilot was attempting to maintain altitude. I did all the emergency procedures (very similar to the Bonanza’s) without effect, so I declared an emergency and requested vectors to Pueblo. The weather at Pueblo was close to ILS minimums, and we were close enough that there was a chance we’d make it. We lost about 1300’ when I realized that I had not pulled the alternate air door knob under the panel. When I pulled it, the engine suddenly came back to life! Rather than land at Pueblo, I cancelled the emergency and elected to climb back up to 12,000’ and continue the flight plan, turning west to Durango. The engine was running perfectly. Of course, every change of ATC controllers included a request how the engine was running. Over the San Luis Valley, the clouds disappeared and we were in VMC. The rest of the flight was uneventful, but when we landed at Durango, there was still a very thick layer of ice on the air intake. Induction icing is very real, and at least in my one time experience, the engine continues to run but at greatly reduced power. Had the Mooney’s engine not responded to pulling the alternate air door knob, I can’t be sure we would have made Pueblo, considering the weather conditions. That flight, now some 40 years or so ago, still haunts me.
Former controller here...I can almost guarantee that the 2nd controller is not a supervisor! In these emergency situations, ATC facilities maintain a list of pilot/controllers that will voluntarily plug in and try to assist the sector controller.
Does the FAA maintain statistics about what percentage of air traffic controllers are also licensed pilots? It’d be interesting to know how likely a pilot in a crisis situation would be to get help from a controller who’s also a pilot.
Very sad situation. Looking forward to the follow up. Engine icing isn't something I think about often in my IO-550N, but you are spot on about the likely possibility. Even with TKS, I have a general rule to avoid icing at all cost. I still avoidance is the smartest approach, but it also means icing emergencies are simply not trained or practiced often (by me at least) .. but I'll be adding it to my annual scenario reviews.
WNY native here, this incident was barely covered or talked about by our local news agencies. Oddly. Not saying it wasn't discussed but it wasn't covered in the way you'd typically expect. To the point where your video Juan, was the source that first informed me that it even happened
Yes, but I would like to think that he checked it when reminded (if it was in working condition). If that was the issue, the problem would be gone and the engine happy again.
I wonder why he decided to try for Buffalo Intl. And not JHW Jamestown when he started having issues? Was he too far out when he realized he had an issue?
It's been really cold here in Ontario. Cross the great lakes, forget it. High humidity. Icing will definitely occur due to lake Erie high temps evaporating.
Thanks, Juan. I'm sad for the pilot and his family, Thank you for your concise review and the lessons we will each take from it: Avoid ice, ask for help early (lower or divert), fly it all the way into the landing....
Partial power loss is a bitch - I had such one on a takeoff in a Bonanza (F33A) at night, 300’ overcast, light rain and past the runway… land straight ahead in darkness or get back to the runway…
At such low altitude, I would try to find the best option, straight ahead to land. Turn around and you will be at risk of stalling the plane if the engine quits.
In todays day and age, with Forflight and so many other tools at our disposal, it baffles me that he doesn’t know where the nearest field is, or how far out an airport is.. even with a standard onboard gps like the antique 430, it’s really easy to navigate the “nearest” page. Odd that he seemed so helpless..
I don't know the specifics of the Bonanza, but on similar GA planes another thing that could be clogged are the fuel vents. That would explain the slowly degrading engine performance.
This was lake-effect precip, not only could ice form on the intake, any moisture that does get past has the ability to desublimate on the intake walls even if it does make it past the filters.
He knows he is losing 1,100ft per minute yet at 4,000ft he still tells ATC that he is still heading for buffalo. He had to have know at that altitude it wasn’t possible. The 1,100ft descent was fairly constant so he should have know at 10,000ft that he couldn’t make it to buffalo. If the descent was erratic because of the engine and it was only a few hundred feet at first then I’d understand. So is this an issue of him not knowing his glide distance? Was it a stress issue of just not thinking about it and praying he could make the ideal airport? The descent feels like the engine isn’t producing much if any power so was it just a case of too optimistic? What should he have done if he knew at 10,000ft that buffalo was too far?
With today's handheld technology you should be able to call up the instruction page you have to deal with a problem like this and have it read off to you if you don't recall it. Something is better than nothing and this would be better than trying to find it in an instruction manual. I'm certain you could put the information into dBase or even Excel and have it read back to you and displayed in large type off a tablet or even your phone. A quality tablet with good sound would be essential and you could include your checklist or whatever else you need right there. The other day I saw a little handheld writer in a truck stop that was used to take notes. Push a button and whatever you wrote would clear. My first though was it would be good to enter flight reference data - $19.
I’m beginning to think that partially power should be treated the same as the engine fully quitting. Looks like he covered about 15nm for 11,000’ which is less than ideal glide so he may have been hearing something from the engine but it wasn’t producing useful thrust. This area didn’t have a slam dunk airport below him. But it’s surprising that he didn’t know about 9G0. Paper charts?
Here in the Bay Area someone successfully executed an emergency landing at the closed down Naval air strip at the Alameda naval base! Would love to know more!
He said he still had power but also noted he couldn’t hold altitude. Dang, time to pull alternate air and land ASAP. It’s not time to be picky about your airport. The plane belongs to the insurance company now, save your skin.
Having grown up right underneath his track it's a shame that he couldn't have landed on the nice two-lane divided HWY 219 on the top of the ridgeline to the west - perhaps he couldn't see it. He was a long way from the airport . . .
Unfortunate. But flying into known icing conditions with a small piston engine aircraft is never a good idea. Get-there-itis, not checking the weather or just being overconfident has killed too many GA pilots. Another tragic loss. Condolences to the friends and family.
In my opinion, someone who wants to fly IFR needs the equivalent of a two year degree in aviation. Back in the day, the Air Force was providing that level of training to thousands of pilots who went on to private and commercial flying. People need informed consent from their instructors that flying an airplane can be dangerous if you are not an expert aviator.
There's a nice little field just before they crashed that they could have used, which should have been easy to land on gear up. Hamburg 4G2 might also have been a closer option.
At the other end of the state a few days ago another plane flying in icing conditions landed on the NY state thru way in Albany within about two lengths of the Albany Int Airport. The pilot reported mechanical problems. There's video of it landing. How he was able to land on a very busy section of highway without a scratch is beyond me. I used to work right in that area. Its a challenge driving a vehicle through there.
@RetiredEE: I thought that the F-18 was a "friendly fire" (from a USN cruiser), situation?!?! Both of the naval aviators aboard "survived with minor injuries". How much "review" does that "require"?
I'd think quite a thorough review of all aspects. Weather, actions of crew, actions on Gettysburg, how active the environment was, do certain houthi missiles have a signature (accidentally or deliberately) similar to an F18, did the F18 fly into a kill box where a missile was already inbound after a different target, why is a CVN sitting in the middle of this fracas... and so on. There are military and aviation aspects of this incident, and I'd be interested to hear Juan's unbiased take. Jmo.
Not familiar with that area, but if the aircraft flight initiated in Michigan, and at the time of the emergency he said he had 5 hours of fuel, what is the range in hours of that aircraft, because it doesn't look like it was right after takeoff... Condolences to his family.
I live near this area and know it well. It seems like the controller was trying to send him to the New York State Thruway when it became clear the pilot would not make it to Buffalo International. That makes sense because is a 4-lane with center divider and not much in the way of overhead obstructions. Unfortunately, the NYST was too far away. If the controller had access to the maps we see in this video, then either Transit Road or Route 20A would have been better choices, as either have easily handled this aircraft. Transit road can have significant traffic, but should have been relatively clear of major traffic this far south of Buffalo. Route 20 A required a 90 degree turn, but is usually mostly empty this far west. Listening to the radio communications, it is so sad to know that in a few moments the pilot will be dead. It sounds like no one on the ground was hurt, which is great, but my heart is heavy with the thought of this pilot losing his life and the effects that has on his family.
I'm trying to sypher out why an "automatic" alternate air intake system that uses a flap/spring mechanism to open/close within a set manifold vacuum threshold would require a pilot input to function. Even with a turbo, the intake to compressor route could easily be fitted with a true stand alone system. The only reason I can come up with is the engine manufacturer being concerned with unfiltered air being drawn in due to a dirty filter during takeoff or other high load situations, creating a potential warranty claims down the road. Feel free to correct me if I'm thinking wrong, please
Looks like he had a shot at 4G2 or DKK if he had decided to get down ASAP once the engine trouble started. Very interested to know what happened at the end of the flight in VMC. Condolences to the family.
So sad to hear about this accident. Truly tragic. Thoughts and prayers to all those affected by this loss. What engine troubleshooting could have been done, given this one is turbocharged (TSIO-520)? Are the emergency procedures different for the turbocharged variant versus those for the normally aspirated model?
Juan, I'm incredibly curious as to what the insurance claims situation is like in the world of privately owned and flown aircraft. With the recent incidents for what otherwise appears as "preventable incidences" I'm curious as to what makes for faster claim approvals/denials. Are people shooting for highways or runways because it is a more preferable environment, or because insurers will push back harder on non-tarmac landings? The surveyor's gas exhaustion seems to be a great example, as by landing on a Texas bypass seems to put many civilians in jeopardy, vs a field landing to the North. As long as those were still fields, and not developed land.
just a gurss .. as the airspeed increases going into the air collector.. somewhere there is a curved surface.. which will speed up part of the airflow , and guessing lowers the barometric pressure allowing water vapor that may be building up to freeze into ice. ( retired refirgeration service tech)
@blancolirio ... Juan, The man was flying well above any lake effect stuff.... typically these are a low level broken layer (lake effect), blue skies above. Normally tops at ~5-6K. Airmet for possible icing in cloud is standard, every day, all winter anywhere near the Great Lakes (but there was NO cloud up at the altitude he was cruising at, he was VFR over the top)... I do not believe he was in any cloud until the engine started acting up and he started down, drilling holes through whatever clouds got in his way. The engine failed for unknown reasons, he handled it well and remained in control on the way down, until the landing, which seems to have gone badly for unknown reasons.
Condolences to his friends and family. RIP to the pilot. I wonder how many useable airfield he flew over. They've been getting pounded by lake effect snows for the last month or so. Maybe there weren't any that were visible at the time of his accident.
I believe the best way to go about getting the pilot license is to start with gliders since every landing is emergency landing 😁.i have done competetive gliding landed many times outside the landing strips. Nothing will make you better at picking somehow proper emergency landing field than that. Gliding is very underestimated skill in aviation
It's been a while since my last flight, but I flew a fair amount of IFR back in the day. Probably over most of the lower 48, mostly east of the Mississippi, but coast to coast several times. But I had self imposed rules. - Never, ever, fly if icing was possible. - If the destination was serious IFR, then the second alternate had to be somewhere with a really good forecast. - Enough fuel to go to both alternates + 45min - I always, no matter how perfect the weather was, followed my progress on a sectional and kept track of where I would go if the engine quit. Lots of small and private fields on the sectional.
I was setting in the cockpit of a wide body doing some maint and listening to the local tower one time and heard a similar thing happening. A guy in maybe a Bonanza was having engine issues and was diverting to our airport. Recall him telling he could not make the airport in the end but a couple miles short. I recall the controller getting very excited. But he managed to set down in a cow pasture and walk away. The controller was telling him to get away from the plane in case of fire and excited stuff but the plane was intact on it's gear.
Situations like this require a specific attitude and that is "Once the engine fails, the plane belongs to the insurance company. Save yourself!"
Unless you aren't insured I guess lol
As an armchair aviator, that's one of the biggest takeaways I've come to understand: insurance owns it; just do whatever possible to walk away after.
What makes you think his intent was trying to save the plane? Other than if the plane survives, so do you.
@@larry2447A lot of owners don’t have any or only partial hull insurance. So there is a bit of an incentive to save the aircraft. We carried about half the value hull insurance on our 150
@@RandomName841 That's why the number 1 private pilot safety device is your credit card.
Another terribly sad report, but as ever, Juan gives us a clear and unemotional description of events as far as they are known, informed by his expert piloting experience. Your work is so much appreciated, Juan.
I can’t help but think of the family whose lives and future Christmases will never be the same again.
How horrible to listen to audio of your loved ones last words.
He's in the worst place for lake effect snow in the entire northeast. Buffalo gets twice as much snow as Toronto, just across Lake Ontario. It's sheltered by the Oak Ridge Moraine.
I went to graduate school in Buffalo for a few years 30 years ago. The weather is something. Always enjoyed visiting Toronto
@@kevinbarry71 - I live north of Toronto, in an area other Ontarians call "The Snow Belt". We get Buffalo-level snow here and we still drive our cars on the lake.
so? were you there??? Do you even fly in the area of the Great Lakes in the winter??? I live nearby... on that day, there was a low level broken layer (lake effect), blue skies above. Airmet for "possible icing in cloud" is standard and exists all winter long (but there was NO cloud up at the altitude he was cruising at, he was VFR over the top)... I do not believe he was in any cloud until the engine started acting up and he started down, drilling holes through whatever clouds got in his way. You are assuming, and thus, making an a$$ of yourself. Looks like he was totally in control until the actual landing (which went bad, for some reason). The engine failed for unknown reasons, he handled it well and remained in control on the way down, until the landing, which seems to have gone badly for unknown reasons. Maybe stop thinking you know it all???
Sad loss of another pilot. Condolences to the family.
I guess I was too big a chicken in my 40+ years of flying, the last 27 of which was in a BE-55 Baron, to put myself in such a position. Fortunately, I could decide when it was time to pull out the credit card, check in to a motel or hotel, have a nice meal, maybe two or three, and continue when the weather got better. And here I am...fat, dumb, and happy in retirement.
Are you seriously flexing that you didn't die and this guy did?
Little bit different in a twin since you aren't going down somewhere if you lost an engine in IMC
An old pilot 👍
Yes sir ! Good , solid , decision making .
...and alive. You cannot put a Wise Head on young shoulders*.
*I read that somewhere, sometime.
Wonderful channel Juan. 50 Year veteran retired pro. Love to watch regular watcher kind of brings back some of those memories. The guy handled the situation like a pro best I could tell. Great coverage great channel!
The examiner who signed off my instrument rating when I was a young tyke told me a single engine instrument rating isn’t a license to go out and fly hard IFR on purpose. It’s a license to get yourself out of trouble. That being said with some experience comes judgement and for those of us who survived getting said judgement we all know the difference between what I call a “practice” day and a day that is best left to the professionals. My condolences to his family.
The 'professional' just doesn't fly that plane in those conditions in the first place.
I dunno...flying in lousy weather is always an added unnecessary risk. I'm sorta amazed that people ignore or minimize the dangers.
Juan provides a great service with his channel, especially with the admonitions to straighten up and fly right. The only drawback is if you follow the channel closely you'd think airplanes are crashing left and right 🥴
Or rather straight ahead.
This unfortunate chap just ran out of altitude. RIP Great work as always Juan, to inform the viewer - which hopefully includes pilots who can learn from the experiences of others.
But he had tons of altitude. 10,000' of altitude, specifically.
Condolences all involved. Prayers
Why can't we GA pilots just live by these simple rules? STAY OUT OF THE CLOUDS WHEN ICING CONDITIONS EXIST! The other rule is, STAY AWAY FROM THUNDERSTORMS... There is another simple rule when you have a mechanical problem: GET THE AIRPLANE ON THE GROUND, IMMEDIATELY! Do not wait.
What a shame. He tried as best he could, just tried to stretch that partial power glide too far. Insurance will get another plane ..
were you there??? How do you know he was in ice? I live nearby... there wa low level broken layer, blue kies above. Airmet for possible light rime in cloud... doe not mean he was in the cloud until he started down, drilling holes through whatever clouds got in his way. You are assuming, and thu making an a$$ of yourself. Looks like we was totally in control until the actual landing (which went bad, for some reason).
Pilot was calm, brave in the face of extreme challenges. RIP aviator. 🙏
My Family lives near Lake Erie and I don't even drive my car up there from the South this time of year, let alone a 1967 airplane 12K feet in the air......just breaks my heart.
Those alternate air doors often get forgotten about. Saw an engine recently where the spring was broken, allowing unfiltered air in for who knows how long. The cylinder walls were polished smooth.
I hope that the general aviation pilots watching this note the brief moments of exasperation which creep into Juan's telling of this tale (and others).
Condolences to the pilots family,thanks for this report mate take care,safe flights,👋👏👏👍🇦🇺🙏🙏
Thank you for making this content, keeps me informed and humble in the sky. ADM is very important to me. Happy holidays to you and your family!
Thank you Juan, keep working.
The pause when asked about engine icing tells me he hadn’t considered it. Tragic.
He might just be the time to do the checks, pulling and releasing the alternate air handle, to make sure it wasn't icing?
Or too hard to swallow to have taken risks and failed, and he can't admit it..
Or that he was doing something else. Don't judge. He's got a lot more going on than watching a youtube video in his boxers while eating doritos.
@ It’s not a judgement. Single pilot IFR should be banned without FADEC and a full glass cockpit.
@@Ficon were you there??? How do you know he was in ice or solid IMC? I live nearby... there was a low level broken layer (lake effect), blue skies above. Airmet for possible light rime in cloud (but there was no cloud up at the altitude he was cruising at, he was VFR over the top)... I do not believe he was in any cloud until he started down, drilling holes through whatever clouds got in his way. You are assuming, and thu, making an a$$ of yourself. Looks like he was totally in control until the actual landing (which went bad, for some reason). The engine failed for unknown reasons, he handled it well and remained in control on the way down, until the landing, which seems to have gone badly for unknown reasons. Maybe stop thinking you know it all???
Thanks again for a great video. I found it strange that the second controller was suggesting a road rather than field. I believe a field is the better alternative since less likely to have wires and traffic.
I was thinking it may be a winter practicality thing. A (partially?) cleared road is probably going to be easier to identify than a specific field, when almost everything is white.
At least with a road you know what is under the snow
It’s impossible to see ruts and ditches in a snow covered field. Roads you know are going to be reasonably flat. I’ll take a road over dirt anytime
I flew for years out of 9G0. The areas south of Buffalo are part of the snow belt region and his best option would have been a road like US 219 or US 20A.
The New York State thruway is 2 lanes in each direction separated by a wide median, wide shoulders, and rarely any overhead wires or close trees, and it would be plowed. Any field would look smooth but could hide any obstacles. East Aurora got 4 feet of snow three weeks ago, no idea how much is still on the ground.
This brings back a vivid memory of a very similar situation I had many years ago in a 231 Mooney, except my family was aboard. Traveling south from Laramie toward Pueblo (final destination Durango) at 12,000’, no airframe icing but some iced condensation on the inside of the windows when I saw the airspeed dropping first, then the MP dropping. The autopilot was attempting to maintain altitude. I did all the emergency procedures (very similar to the Bonanza’s) without effect, so I declared an emergency and requested vectors to Pueblo. The weather at Pueblo was close to ILS minimums, and we were close enough that there was a chance we’d make it. We lost about 1300’ when I realized that I had not pulled the alternate air door knob under the panel. When I pulled it, the engine suddenly came back to life!
Rather than land at Pueblo, I cancelled the emergency and elected to climb back up to 12,000’ and continue the flight plan, turning west to Durango. The engine was running perfectly. Of course, every change of ATC controllers included a request how the engine was running. Over the San Luis Valley, the clouds disappeared and we were in VMC. The rest of the flight was uneventful, but when we landed at Durango, there was still a very thick layer of ice on the air intake.
Induction icing is very real, and at least in my one time experience, the engine continues to run but at greatly reduced power. Had the Mooney’s engine not responded to pulling the alternate air door knob, I can’t be sure we would have made Pueblo, considering the weather conditions. That flight, now some 40 years or so ago, still haunts me.
Stretching the glide to 15 miles is absolutely wild to me.
Particularly in any Bonanza. They can be real sinkers if you're not nailing your glide / configuration.
It was very windy. Icy and snowy.. he crashed in dion Dawkins back yard
Merry Christmas Juan and Family !
Former controller here...I can almost guarantee that the 2nd controller is not a supervisor! In these emergency situations, ATC facilities maintain a list of pilot/controllers that will voluntarily plug in and try to assist the sector controller.
Does the FAA maintain statistics about what percentage of air traffic controllers are also licensed pilots? It’d be interesting to know how likely a pilot in a crisis situation would be to get help from a controller who’s also a pilot.
Pretty ballsy to fly 80miles across the lake at any time, let alone a lake with freezing water..
Very sad situation. Looking forward to the follow up. Engine icing isn't something I think about often in my IO-550N, but you are spot on about the likely possibility. Even with TKS, I have a general rule to avoid icing at all cost. I still avoidance is the smartest approach, but it also means icing emergencies are simply not trained or practiced often (by me at least) .. but I'll be adding it to my annual scenario reviews.
WNY native here, this incident was barely covered or talked about by our local news agencies. Oddly.
Not saying it wasn't discussed but it wasn't covered in the way you'd typically expect.
To the point where your video Juan, was the source that first informed me that it even happened
His biggest mistake was taking off.should have stayed home .really sad
Tragically the Erie PA airport was closer with adequate runway length and emergency services. A 180 degree turn direct was closer than BUF. RIP.
He was quite far from Erie when he lost his engine.
The first controller was great, the second added nothing but distraction,
My guess iced over air filter. Remember this is what the alternate air lever or knob is for.
Yes, but I would like to think that he checked it when reminded (if it was in working condition). If that was the issue, the problem would be gone and the engine happy again.
He stated no ice - None on the airframe, none in the induction system. In addition this A/C will open alternate air if needed by itself
@@AlpineWarrenHe may have stated that... Doesn't mean it ain't there.
Also zero Pireps of icing so...
you guess wrong
I wonder why he decided to try for Buffalo Intl. And not JHW Jamestown when he started having issues? Was he too far out when he realized he had an issue?
It's been really cold here in Ontario. Cross the great lakes, forget it. High humidity. Icing will definitely occur due to lake Erie high temps evaporating.
Thanks, Juan. I'm sad for the pilot and his family, Thank you for your concise review and the lessons we will each take from it: Avoid ice, ask for help early (lower or divert), fly it all the way into the landing....
"Anything closer?" Man, I heard the fright in his voice like he just realized he's in serious trouble. Terrible.
Faulty judgement gauge. Should have been part of the pre-flight checklist.
Didn’t make it 2m into the video and my first thought was ICING. At FL12000, in the area over water… prime icing conditions at this time of year.
Partial power loss is a bitch - I had such one on a takeoff in a Bonanza (F33A) at night, 300’ overcast, light rain and past the runway… land straight ahead in darkness or get back to the runway…
What did you do? Did you put it down straight ahead or did you nurse it back?
At such low altitude, I would try to find the best option, straight ahead to land. Turn around and you will be at risk of stalling the plane if the engine quits.
snow would certainly obscure any landing obstacles. i'm looking for a road in those circumstances.
Another GA tragic crash. RB, Nova Scotia.
In todays day and age, with Forflight and so many other tools at our disposal, it baffles me that he doesn’t know where the nearest field is, or how far out an airport is.. even with a standard onboard gps like the antique 430, it’s really easy to navigate the “nearest” page. Odd that he seemed so helpless..
IDK…the ground would be coming up fast with that air frame and no power - Juan mentioned that.
Lol it's funny that the 430 is antique now
What baffles me is he either ignored or didn't bother checking icing reports.
@@mebeingU2 from 12,500 feet, He has 10 minutes or so.. even if he was descending at 2000fpm, that’s 6 minutes.. he has time
I was hoping you would get Christmas off! Lets hope for no more incidents for the rest of the year!
I don't know the specifics of the Bonanza, but on similar GA planes another thing that could be clogged are the fuel vents. That would explain the slowly degrading engine performance.
Bonanzas are rocks with wings.
I have a bush plane. Bonanzas glide like crazy!
This was lake-effect precip, not only could ice form on the intake, any moisture that does get past has the ability to desublimate on the intake walls even if it does make it past the filters.
Why turn north ? Big field w / mechanics , etc ?
Not much else around, and it was snowing.
He should have stayed home!!!
That's a terrible route this time of year!
He knows he is losing 1,100ft per minute yet at 4,000ft he still tells ATC that he is still heading for buffalo. He had to have know at that altitude it wasn’t possible. The 1,100ft descent was fairly constant so he should have know at 10,000ft that he couldn’t make it to buffalo. If the descent was erratic because of the engine and it was only a few hundred feet at first then I’d understand. So is this an issue of him not knowing his glide distance? Was it a stress issue of just not thinking about it and praying he could make the ideal airport? The descent feels like the engine isn’t producing much if any power so was it just a case of too optimistic? What should he have done if he knew at 10,000ft that buffalo was too far?
With today's handheld technology you should be able to call up the instruction page you have to deal with a problem like this and have it read off to you if you don't recall it. Something is better than nothing and this would be better than trying to find it in an instruction manual. I'm certain you could put the information into dBase or even Excel and have it read back to you and displayed in large type off a tablet or even your phone. A quality tablet with good sound would be essential and you could include your checklist or whatever else you need right there. The other day I saw a little handheld writer in a truck stop that was used to take notes. Push a button and whatever you wrote would clear. My first though was it would be good to enter flight reference data - $19.
I’m beginning to think that partially power should be treated the same as the engine fully quitting. Looks like he covered about 15nm for 11,000’ which is less than ideal glide so he may have been hearing something from the engine but it wasn’t producing useful thrust. This area didn’t have a slam dunk airport below him. But it’s surprising that he didn’t know about 9G0. Paper charts?
Poor guy, bad circumstance. RIP Get's you when you hear their voice on the ATC
Here in the Bay Area someone successfully executed an emergency landing at the closed down Naval air strip at the Alameda naval base! Would love to know more!
Can you induce a BACKFIRE with both off and back on as a crude last resort ?.
He said he still had power but also noted he couldn’t hold altitude. Dang, time to pull alternate air and land ASAP. It’s not time to be picky about your airport. The plane belongs to the insurance company now, save your skin.
I think I'd learn how to fly a glider before I'd go for my pilots license in a powered aircraft.
Please cover the 150 landing at Alameda
Shame there was so much snow on the ground. Arcade is not far from Springville. 😔
Having grown up right underneath his track it's a shame that he couldn't have landed on the nice two-lane divided HWY 219 on the top of the ridgeline to the west - perhaps he couldn't see it. He was a long way from the airport . . .
Looking at the picture of the airplane, it could of had the Tornado Alley turbo normalizer system installed.
Juan. The alternate air door is spring loaded, so the engine has to be running to keep the door open.
RIP...
Thx Juan
Unfortunate. But flying into known icing conditions with a small piston engine aircraft is never a good idea. Get-there-itis, not checking the weather or just being overconfident has killed too many GA pilots. Another tragic loss. Condolences to the friends and family.
Tragic decision making from that pilot. RIP.
I live in Buffalo, there was about 3 feet of snow on the ground in the area he went down
Wow induction icing, alternate air source… thanks Jaun so interesting.
So sad 😢
Thanks Juan for the insight and reminder. Get it on the ground, don't stretch a weak engine.
In my opinion, someone who wants to fly IFR needs the equivalent of a two year degree in aviation. Back in the day, the Air Force was providing that level of training to thousands of pilots who went on to private and commercial flying. People need informed consent from their instructors that flying an airplane can be dangerous if you are not an expert aviator.
Feliz Navidad 🎉
What is best for forced landing on snow covered field? Gear up, or gear down.
Up
Buffalo ATC did a great job. This happened 15 miles from us, I was curious if you would pick up on this tragic flight. Thanks Juan.
There's a nice little field just before they crashed that they could have used, which should have been easy to land on gear up. Hamburg 4G2 might also have been a closer option.
At the other end of the state a few days ago another plane flying in icing conditions landed on the NY state thru way in Albany within about two lengths of the Albany Int Airport. The pilot reported mechanical problems. There's video of it landing. How he was able to land on a very busy section of highway without a scratch is beyond me. I used to work right in that area. Its a challenge driving a vehicle through there.
Should diverts always be closest airport? Also are you going to review the F18?
Merry Christmas all & fly safe.
@RetiredEE:
I thought that the F-18 was a "friendly fire" (from a USN cruiser), situation?!?!
Both of the naval aviators aboard "survived with minor injuries".
How much "review" does that "require"?
I'd think quite a thorough review of all aspects. Weather, actions of crew, actions on Gettysburg, how active the environment was, do certain houthi missiles have a signature (accidentally or deliberately) similar to an F18, did the F18 fly into a kill box where a missile was already inbound after a different target, why is a CVN sitting in the middle of this fracas... and so on.
There are military and aviation aspects of this incident, and I'd be interested to hear Juan's unbiased take. Jmo.
@@RetiredEE How would he know any of that? Jeez.
Not familiar with that area, but if the aircraft flight initiated in Michigan, and at the time of the emergency he said he had 5 hours of fuel, what is the range in hours of that aircraft, because it doesn't look like it was right after takeoff... Condolences to his family.
All these figures must be rote, what the hell are they teaching these young folks who never get old....
I live near this area and know it well. It seems like the controller was trying to send him to the New York State Thruway when it became clear the pilot would not make it to Buffalo International. That makes sense because is a 4-lane with center divider and not much in the way of overhead obstructions. Unfortunately, the NYST was too far away. If the controller had access to the maps we see in this video, then either Transit Road or Route 20A would have been better choices, as either have easily handled this aircraft. Transit road can have significant traffic, but should have been relatively clear of major traffic this far south of Buffalo. Route 20 A required a 90 degree turn, but is usually mostly empty this far west. Listening to the radio communications, it is so sad to know that in a few moments the pilot will be dead. It sounds like no one on the ground was hurt, which is great, but my heart is heavy with the thought of this pilot losing his life and the effects that has on his family.
The stress this must put ATC personnel through being the last people to talk to the pilots in fatal crashes. 😔
Not joking. But the words of Mike Oldfields.. 5 miles out came to mind when listening to this unfortunate accident.
I'm trying to sypher out why an "automatic" alternate air intake system that uses a flap/spring mechanism to open/close within a set manifold vacuum threshold would require a pilot input to function. Even with a turbo, the intake to compressor route could easily be fitted with a true stand alone system. The only reason I can come up with is the engine manufacturer being concerned with unfiltered air being drawn in due to a dirty filter during takeoff or other high load situations, creating a potential warranty claims down the road. Feel free to correct me if I'm thinking wrong, please
Looks like he had a shot at 4G2 or DKK if he had decided to get down ASAP once the engine trouble started. Very interested to know what happened at the end of the flight in VMC. Condolences to the family.
I have lost power, but never accepted to my self erroneously that it was a parcial failure , i consider it a power plant failure❤
Cycle ignition try to get a backfire to clear intake
So sad to hear about this accident. Truly tragic. Thoughts and prayers to all those affected by this loss.
What engine troubleshooting could have been done, given this one is turbocharged (TSIO-520)?
Are the emergency procedures different for the turbocharged variant versus those for the normally aspirated model?
Juan, I'm incredibly curious as to what the insurance claims situation is like in the world of privately owned and flown aircraft. With the recent incidents for what otherwise appears as "preventable incidences" I'm curious as to what makes for faster claim approvals/denials. Are people shooting for highways or runways because it is a more preferable environment, or because insurers will push back harder on non-tarmac landings? The surveyor's gas exhaustion seems to be a great example, as by landing on a Texas bypass seems to put many civilians in jeopardy, vs a field landing to the North. As long as those were still fields, and not developed land.
Do those types of planes have a fuel dump option?
This is so gd sad! RIP
Could have been flying in snow; no airframe ice but possible induction blockage.
just a gurss .. as the airspeed increases going into the air collector.. somewhere there is a curved surface.. which will speed up part of the airflow , and guessing lowers the barometric pressure allowing water vapor that may be building up to freeze into ice.
( retired refirgeration service tech)
@blancolirio ... Juan, The man was flying well above any lake effect stuff.... typically these are a low level broken layer (lake effect), blue skies above. Normally tops at ~5-6K. Airmet for possible icing in cloud is standard, every day, all winter anywhere near the Great Lakes (but there was NO cloud up at the altitude he was cruising at, he was VFR over the top)... I do not believe he was in any cloud until the engine started acting up and he started down, drilling holes through whatever clouds got in his way. The engine failed for unknown reasons, he handled it well and remained in control on the way down, until the landing, which seems to have gone badly for unknown reasons.
Buffalo has good support as far as an alternate
Condolences to his friends and family. RIP to the pilot. I wonder how many useable airfield he flew over. They've been getting pounded by lake effect snows for the last month or so. Maybe there weren't any that were visible at the time of his accident.
Sometimes things get frazzled. Darn it
I believe the best way to go about getting the pilot license is to start with gliders since every landing is emergency landing 😁.i have done competetive gliding landed many times outside the landing strips. Nothing will make you better at picking somehow proper emergency landing field than that.
Gliding is very underestimated skill in aviation
You do so much for us but, we kinda need subtitles sometimes 😔🎸
Yeah, I can rarely understand the radio coms.
It's been a while since my last flight, but I flew a fair amount of IFR back in the day. Probably over most of the lower 48, mostly east of the Mississippi, but coast to coast several times. But I had self imposed rules.
- Never, ever, fly if icing was possible.
- If the destination was serious IFR, then the second alternate had to be somewhere with a really good forecast.
- Enough fuel to go to both alternates + 45min
- I always, no matter how perfect the weather was, followed my progress on a sectional and kept track of where I would go if the engine quit. Lots of small and private fields on the sectional.
I was setting in the cockpit of a wide body doing some maint and listening to the local tower one time and heard a similar thing happening. A guy in maybe a Bonanza was having engine issues and was diverting to our airport. Recall him telling he could not make the airport in the end but a couple miles short. I recall the controller getting very excited. But he managed to set down in a cow pasture and walk away. The controller was telling him to get away from the plane in case of fire and excited stuff but the plane was intact on it's gear.
I noticed on the map the notation: Caution Laser Light Activity...Does that mean what I think it means?
Not Far from my Home...Very Sad!