John Williams vs Gustav Holst or Star Wars Vs The Planets
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 12 พ.ย. 2016
- This episode of Everything Music is called John Williams vs. Gustav Holst or Star Wars vs. the Planets. John Williams was influenced by a number of composers such as Wagner, Stravinsky, Richard Strauss, Erich Korngold and especially Gustav Holst. In today’s episode I will show you the melodic and harmonic influences that Holst had on John Williams music of Star Wars.
Gustav Holst (1874-1934) was an English composer, arranger and teacher and best known for his orchestral suite The Planets. His distinctive compositional style was the product of many influences like Wagner, Richard Strauss, Ravel, Grieg and Ralph Vaughn Williams.The Planets, Op. 32, is a seven-movement orchestral suite written between 1914 and 1916. Each movement of the suite is named after a planet of the Solar System and its corresponding astrological character as defined by Holst.
John Williams (born February 8, 1932) is an American composer, conductor, and pianist. With a career spanning over six decades he has composed some of the most popular and recognizable film scores in cinematic history, to many of the highest-grossing films of all-time, including Jaws, the Star Wars series, Superman, E.T. the Extra-Terrestrial, the Indiana Jones series, Jurassic Park, Schindler's List, and the first three Harry Potter films.
From their premieres to the present day, both The Planets and Star Wars have been enduringly popular, influential and widely performed and recorded.
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When asked if he thought John Williams was a good composer, my college orchestra Maestro said “John Williams is a lot of good composers.”
Ooooh. Meow!
@@khtnsuwdih LOL, yah.
Great line
He said that like something good or bad? I thing is something good
@@manuelgramajo2000 something bad, saying he basically copies a lot of actually good composers
Another interesting video. Thank you. George Lucus actually wanted to use The Planets suit as his score to Star Wars and asked Williams to re-ochestrate to fit scenes. John Williams said, "how about I compose a new score in the style of The Planets". So it's no coincidence that they have similarities. many people say he ripped off Holst, when in fact he was asked to emulate it. With this in mind it further, truly demonstrates Williams artistry and talent.
HI David- I actually cut that out of the video because I wasn't positive that was true. Thanks you for that! Everyone has influences :) Rick
Rick Beato thank you for your reply. Your videos are great! Williams certainly has many influences, as I have grown up listening to his scores and discovering Classical music on the way, I hear so much influence in his music from past masters such as Prokofiev, Bartok and Stravinsky as well as Holst. I would love you to dissect some Prokofiev sometime in the future. In my opinion he was an immense genius.
And the part from 8:00 is basically just a nod to Holst, that's why he basically copy-pasted it without changing it too much.
David Hillman I will do a video or 2 on Prokofiev. He is one of my favorite composers. His piano concertos 1-3 are some of the best of all time. The 3rd is probably my favorite besides Beethoven's 4th. Love Prokofiev!
+Rick Beato Lucas actually temp tracked several pieces when he screened the film for JW, including the theme to Kings Row (1942) during the title crawl. If you aren't familiar, check that theme out and you'll hear the similarity to the Star Wars main theme immediately.
You seriously are the teacher I wish I had in my college years.
I would've definitely done music in college of this guy taught it
Amen.
Holst: "John, I am your father".
Very good 😂😂
*Mars plays quietly in the background like Imperial March*
John: No, that's not true. That's impossible!
From Vaughan-Williams to John Williams?!
Then they joined forces to defeat the even more evil, Darth Mahler.
Holst is so underrated, it seems to me. The Planets is a masterpiece in the true sense IMHO. Rick is just covering Mars here. It's nice that he mentioned the double harps and that really comes into play in Saturn, which is so awesome in a completely different way.
Dave Bellamy
"Holst is so underrated, it seems to me."
I don't think so. I think almost everyone has heard parts of the Planets, but they don't know what it is. Jupiter was used in the Simpsons, and I've heard more than one commercial with one section or another. I used to play Mars on day one to all of my grade nine music students. And without fail they would come back the next day and ask to hear it again.
When I first watched Curse of the Black Pearl in theatres, all I could hear was Holst inspiration.
@@SamIAm-kz4hg And I'm sure many have heard _Neptune, The Mystic,_ used a time or three.
Also, _Uranus, The Magician,_ bears an uncanny resemblance to _The Sorcerer's Apprentice._ (which preceded _The Planets._ Was it "borrowed" by Holst?)
Fred
@@ffggddss Musicians borrow from other musicians. Good musicians steal.
@@SamIAm-kz4hg Yes, I'm familiar with that old saw; which is what it is, because it's so true!
And good musicians know how to steal effectively, not merely perfunctorily.
As Holst apparently did, from Dukas.
This show why public domain is very important.
Imagine the estate of Holst was able to stop Star Wars from being released or took all the money from the first one and we never got any more.
@@TheSpacecraftX And that would have been a bad thing?
@@parapoliticos52 Yes.
@Eugenio Witaszek scam
@Agustin Digaetano scam
Terry "Geezer" Butler was sitting around playing that G D C# counter melody on his bass after listening to The Planets-which he had recently discovered and "gotten into," he said. Tony Iommi was sitting across the room and liked it, especially the ominous sound of the tritone. They kept noodling around with it and next thing you know the dark melody of the title track of their first album, "Black Sabbath," was born.
It was also used by Diamond Head for the beginning of "Am I Evil" which was later covered by Metallica.
The Birth Of Heavy Metal Music 🤘
That is some excellent trivia, thanks. Very interesting. When it's pointed out it's easy to recognize, but pretty subtle otherwise, at least to my untrained 👂's.
Check out Overkill's "Who Tends the Fire".
So, Holst is the great grand-father of heavy metal....
The Planets has become one of my favorite pieces of music. After listening to The Planets, I became convinced that most movie score composers get a tremendous amount of influence from Holst. Some of Mars actually reminds me of "Roman legion" scenes in Ben-Hur and also, (not by accident, i'm sure), the opening battle scene in Gladiator. I can hear influences of Holst in Poledouris' Conan score as well. The "Thaxted" section from Jupiter contains one of the most beautiful melodic phrases i have heard since Bach's Jesu. Holst is brilliant.
Yeah. I think probably most scifi and fantasy movies from the 20th century I've seen I hear some of Holst in there at some point. :D
Here's an interesting fact that you may not have known. George Lucas actually originally requested that John Williams just adapt Holst's The Planets to the movie, but Williams insisted on writing original music. So, that's one of the reasons why the Star Wars score sounds so heavily influenced by The Planets.
I just replied to another comment about that. I wasn't sure that was true so I edited that out of the video. Thanks Cade!
Cade Roberts, do you have a source on that?
Cade Roberts Yeah. He used planets as a temp track as well, and George really liked it.
Lucas should have requested that Williams also writes the screenplay. Could have been good film
Wow that's awesome! I always thought that was a new arrangement of Mars
Don't forget Antonin Dvorak! Whenever I listen to his "New World Symphony" I can hear half of the Star Wars Soundtrack! ;-) But it's really great to listen to all the inspirations of a composer, in order to understand their way of composing. :)
And... mostly Prokofiev.
Not to mention the basically copied theme for jaws, that is the introduction to the NW Symphonies final movement!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Just listen to the song “ One is the Loneliest” and you will hear Dvorak” The New World Symphony!
And the second movement of the rite of spring sounds like C3P0 walking through the desert
All of these are right. Williams borrowed a lot of styles from a lot of composers for Star Wars, in part I think out of Lucas's original desire to use classical pieces for the films, as Kubrick had done for 2001. Williams made a Star Wars score distinct enough to stand on its own, but with enough clear influences to inform listeners of the music's roots.
And thus was born the sci-fi classical music nerd.......
The planets is such an incredible piece of music as a whole
I can't put my finger on exactly what it is about it, but the ballad in the middle of Jupiter is my favorite pieces of classical music of all. There is something moving about it, something, awe inspiring I think. I think its every bit as emotionally evocative as Beethoven Symphony No.7 Allegretto, but with a much more subtle emotion than the despair that Beethoven was going for.
Necroticus If you look up 'i vow to there my country' it's a longer version of the middle of Jupiter. It's composed by Holst as well.
Necroticus, I agree. That middle section of "Jupiter" is very moving. It has a certain nobility to it, I think and I get caught up in it every time I hear it. Interesting that you also referenced the movement from Beethoven's 7th. That has been a favorite of mine since the 6th grade, when the school orchestra I was in was invited to play it at the NY Pavillion at the 1964 World's Fair. Not too many years later I became familiar with the whole symphony. Great stuff.
I love it so much, I have a section of Jupiter tattooed on me
Yeah, very moving. I feel the soundtrack from the original Conan the Barbarian was influenced by Jupiter. The orgy and soup scene in Conan has a melody reminiscent of Jupiter
@@macscroge tbh I always thought "I vow to thee my country" was an much older english folk song & not composed by Holst orginially at all, but it makes sense he wrote that one too. The main theme of the famous movie Braveheart contains a very similar melody.
I think Holst is the single most underrated composer of all time. The Planets is arguably the greatest work of the early 20th Century (if not the entire century). Holst wrote some of the best concert band music, all of which is still being performed.
It is crazy to say that
This guy's ear is so good, I wish mine was that good
So glad I found this video - I’ve been telling people for years to listen to Holst if you wanna hear the wellspring of so much Williams
I've frequently heard the influence of other composers in Williams' music. He certainly wears his influences on his sleeve.
In my high school's music department I was known for being a Holst fanboy, so when we got the chance to see the LA philharmonic perform the suite in its entirety, I jumped on it, got goosebumps when Mars began
I wish I could afford to see one some day.
@@sandra.chengc an admirable goal, I hope you're able to go someday
I love learning things like this about music I love, it really helps to appreciate it even more.
Vaughan-Williams and Holst knew each other, I believe, I'm sure they went walking together. They also ran pieces they were working on past each other, and Holst respected V-W hugely so I wouldn't be surprised if he was quoting from Fantasia OTTT in The Planets. Vaughan-williams' piece always makes me think of rolling Atlantic waves.
Thanks for putting this together, Rick. I did a paper on John Williams back when I was studying physics. I had already been a music major and a professional musician when I went back to school. I needed an easy course to satisfy some weird requirement and music appreciation was one of the classes I could choose from. Easy peasy. I explained this very thing in my paper and the instructor poopooed my assessment citing all the awards John Williams had won. I still aced the course, but couldn't believe they had a music professor who didn't understand John Williams' influences.
I think the music of virtually every SciFi movie has been influenced by "The Planets". It was the first classical work I heard as a young child and it is still the best I have ever heard.
How Very Cool!!! Holst has been an absolute favorite of mine since high school and being trained through the Second Suite in E-flat. Our director guided us through not only learning to play our parts, but how Holst put together the arrangement and the nuances of the suite.
I LOVE the works of John Williams.. and perhaps now I can see why they both touch me so deeply. Thank you very much.
Mc Kenna the second suite in f....
If you're going to play chords over C's don't you need a passport?
DeltaFoxtrotWhiskey3 this joke is wildly underrated
Nice one
you really ought to be slapped for that...lmao
Lol!
Not if you go to Puerto Rico.
‘Thomas Tallis’ has been one of my favorite pieces for as long as I can remember. 🥰
Ever since I was a teenager and started getting into classical music, I recognized similarities between Holst's Planets symphony and Williams' Star Wars orchestration. I could hear it, but now I understand it intellectually. THANK YOU for teaching me, yet again, about music.
Gustav Holst... What a composer! From Mercury to Pluto, such a master at work. The whole concept, everything is beautiful.
Except there is no Pluto Suite
@@mrmogensen That's true. Pluto movement was composed by Colin Matthews.
@der Führer Yes, I was mistaken. Wasn't composed by Gustav Holst; Pluto movement was composed by Colin Matthews in the year 2000.
Anyway Pluto was deplanetised so the 7 still stand.
I remember noticing the similarity when I heard the Star Wars theme for the first time, having previously had Holst's The Planets for the first time. At the time, I had wondered if it was intentional, or if John Williams had independently come up with the idea (which to my mind is a good indication of it being on the right side of the line between homage/inspiration and plagiarism). Finding out that it was intentional hasn't dented my opinion of the Star Wars score or theme - after hearing Mars I had been quite keen to hear other composers put their own spin on Holst's idea with the menacing interposition of D-flat and C chords. In harmonic terms, I think its menacing sound comes partly from a sense of it "threatening" to resolve, via C, into F minor (indeed I get that impression from the harmony of large parts of Mars), but in neither Mars nor Star Wars does it get there.
I noticed the similarities between Mars and Gladiator's soundtrack as well. I think Hans Zimmer mostly stayed on the right side of the homage-plagiarism line, with the exception of a segment of the track "Barbarian Horde", which sounds uncomfortably close to Mars to my ears - something that I have never felt about anything from Star Wars despite the obvious and recurring influences from Mars.
I listened to the planets for the first time a few of years ago. I was very surprised how many moments reminded me of John Williams Star Wars. Particularly Mars and the Imperial theme.
I just did a search on Google to see if anyone else was talking about Williams’ liberal borrowing from The Planets. This video was the top of the search.
Williams borrowed from everyone! This is not to downplay his compositions; he's done some awesome music! His music is also a great entry into the classical world; when I play something like Dvorak's "New World" finale, my music students always say "That's the 'Jaws' theme!" This leads to a great discussion of classical music, and "If you like this movie theme, you'll like this orchestra piece" kind of thing. :-)
TH-cam brought this to my attention during a search about Mars exploration. Quite an enjoyable happenstance!
Don't forget Hans Zimmer used much of Mars for Gladiator score
Hans Zimmer is a goat next to Williams.
Caught that as well! Nice, Alex!
As did Alan Silvestri with Back to the Future
So fun!! Love this!
I know very little about music, but having noticed the similarity between Planets & Star Wars, I searched it to learn more. And this is easily one of the most instructive (while still accessible to non-musicians) videos I've seen. It's interesting, educational, and clearly presented. Many thanks to Rick!
I somehow missed this video until tonight. I’ve always noticed the similarities between these composers’ work, and you have explained it brilliantly. Quite remarkable…so glad I found this video after five years!
Rick, could you do a video like this analyzing music from Howard Shore? He's one of my all time favorite film score composers, and I'm very curious as to what techniques he uses in his music.
Alfonzo Ginibi Agreed. His score for Cronenberg's Dead Ringers is amazing. The opening credits score is both beautiful and disturbing.
Shore also scored one of Tim Burton's few non-Elfman films: Ed Wood, possibly the best film ever.
Yes, me too!! The Lord of the Rings trilogy has perhaps the most beautiful score I have ever heard!
I try to defend John Williams when he's accused of stealing holst. The original Star Wars script called for powerful war drums and George Lucas has said he wrote the script with holst playing in the background. Btw how awesome is the planets!!
He emulated Holst. Saying he Imitated is negative and insulting.
He did plagiarized almost everything even Shindler's list from James Horner and Puccini's "Manon Lescaut" near the end of the piece. I am deceived.
*****
Lies
He admits himself that his music is not as extraordinary as people say, compared of old great composers.
Plus when you have to compose music for a movie/TV show, your time is quite limited, so you tend to emulate what you already know rather than try to invent a new music from scratch or it would take years to have a stroke of inspiration !
@Quo Niam Would you expect him to say that his music is extraordinary? From what I've gathered from his interviews he rather likes to come off as a humble man.
This score analysis is invaluable--many thanks for taking the time to do this! Thankfully the Holst and Williams scores are commercially available for those of us wishing to study them.
Williams' "influences" have been noticed far and wide.
In 1958, Williams (et al.) scored a wonderful movie called _Daddy-O._
There was an MST3K episode from 20-Jul-1991 where they make a comment when Williams' name is shown:
"Oh no, John Williams...this must have been before he heard Stravinsky!"
Aaahhh... here is the video I have been looking for!
Thanks for this. Looking forward to the Tallis Fantasia video.
Just a quick point: Holst and Vaughan Williams were friends. They studied together at the Royal College of Music. Holst definitely knew the Tallis Fantasia.
The two would play their works to one another and provide critiques. Both said they were influenced by the other.
RVW was devastated when Holst died as he'd lost his closest friend and critic. I'd recommend listening to his fourth and sixth symphonies- I believe they've been very influential in film music. And RVW wrote several film scores, most famously for Scott of the Antarctic, which he later developed as his seventh symphony, Symphonia Antarctica. Perhaps the subject of a future video?
I almost made the Tallis Fantasia video last night. We were listening to it at dinner. Maybe today or tomorrow. Symphony Antarctica great idea!
Try to find the version with Sir Ralph Richardson reciting the section intros, amazing. Another great film score of RVW: the 49th Parallel. I listen to it EVERY night to go to sleep. Usually out like a light after five minutes but to hear that main theme just relaxes me so much . I am usually just about asleep when he suddenly brings in the "oh Canada" theme. the build-up to that is worth the price. Very good film, too though the whole Raymond Massey character at the end is pretty annoying, ok, and the Leslie Howard scene of him walking into the cave while a Nazi shoots at him, ridiculous, but the rest of the film is very good mainly because of Eric Portman's perf as the Nazi commander. BUT I DIGRESS! ha ha.
Nice teardown you brought it all out and made it much clearer, I was always aware of how similar these compositions are but now understand it better. This came up in conversation a few days ago and after a few views of other videos on TH-cam it finally pointed me to this. Cheers.
Fabulous breakdown of these majestic progressions. Thank you!!
Thanks man. I have no idea of music, but your videos are "easy" to follow, and entertaining also. I wish I had a nikel or somethink to contribute, but is really hard here in the south. cheers from Argentina.
I hope some day, you will talk about Piazzolla. :)
@@diazconias Jaja,mas ahora con Macri.Anoche fui a ver The Planets por la filarmonica de Orlando,espectacular,y justamente la semana que viene van a hacer las Estaciones de Piazolla y Libertango,con arreglos de un finlandes.
John Williams would be the first one to admit that he was influenced by many composers of the past, not just from Star Wars either. However, he has certainly put his stamp on everything he's done. Make no mistake, John Williams is one of a kind.
Other composers like Howard Shore and Jerry Goldsmith are also excellent, but when I leave the theater I am usually not humming their tunes.
JW3HH
The materialization of what my ears have always intuited! thank you so much for the wonderful comparative lesson!
I have always loved Vaughn Williams - my favorite composer by FAR. The London Symphony is absolute genius - that 2nd movement is, for me, the apex of music. Very happy to see his name finally.
Our high school band played all the planet arrangements, my favorite one was Jupiter
I’m calling horseshit on that. A high school marching band could not learn all the suites and a field program too. If a high school band did do it, my ears would be calling horseshit as well.
Ray Day33 I think he means in concert band and I wouldn't be surprised, there are some really amazing high school bands out there.
@@Davo2233 You're the only one who said anything about a marching band.
I'm absolutely sure that Holst was influenced by Vaughan Williams. Not only were they in the same place at the same time, but the two were very dear friends, and valued each other's criticism over all others. They would often play each other pieces in the works, and little was published by either without the other's approval.
Ciaran Hedderman Two of my favorite composers :)
Thanks for the info, didn't know that :) .
me too... be sure to listen to Hovhaness "Mysterious Mt."
So in a nutshell, Williams inspired Holst who inspired Williams.
I read that Holst was also a friend of Hank Williams and that some subtle influences from Move It On Over can be heard in the Jupiter Suite.
This kind of analysis is incredibly helpful to those of us who are trying to learn to compose music. Thanks so much!
Thank you for sharing this, an excellent discussion, demonstration and illumination!
There is a lot of Shostakovich in John Williams' music as well.
the Anthony Bourdain of composition
Anthony D RIP Anthony bourdain
Just found this video. This was great! Please do more of these. So interesting. A piece of music I’ve heard but never really LISTENED to before.
Rick I'm sure you've forgotten more about music than most of us will ever learn it's always entertaining to watch your videos. Thank you so much
I think you can hear the Venus section of the Planets in Williams' Superman music when he has romantic moments with Lois Lane
I'm shocked nobody mentioned the influence of PDQ Bach... and that man was under the influence a lot
Nice! :-)
Bravo! Outstanding job. Really awesome. Many thanks!
Facinating video. Loved it and thank you for the musical history lesson!
The Holst estate sued Hans Zimmer for his similarity to Mars in the film Gladiator. Awarded $10 million.
Interesting. I presume it's the score from the opening battle scene in Gladiator that sounds similar to Mars.
Seems Holst is one of the few classical composers to have a legal hold on their music.
Sad that much more modern (50+ years later) artistic entities did not copywrite or got ripped off of their works.
I bet Holst made more money after he passed then when he was alive....like most artists unfortunately.
The planets is one of the most covered, rehashed, drawn from, influential, however you want to phrase it, pieces of orchestral music. The latter 20th century is just absolutely rife, littered, and saturated with Holst references. Some subliminal, some quite overt. From Sands, to Cream, to ELP, to King Crimson to Overkill, Diamondhead, Symphony X, Nile, Isao Tomita, Rick Wakeman, And at least a dozen other pop/rock/metal bands and artists have done a rendition. That's not even mentioning other film and tv scores.
I have absolutely no idea who those people/bands you listed are, Iol.
No Mars = no Progressive Rock
@nahor88 ignorant
Ryan Alexander Bloom
Agreed, the Planets was certainly influential. But if you want to hear 200 year old 'heavy metal' don't forget Mozart's Requiem or Bach's "Dracula theme" (toccata and fugue in D minor) which has been endlessly borrowed from for metal guitar solos, to name but two major works. And who hasn't been influenced by Bach or Mozart?
All this is just another part of western musical history. You can't just dismiss such a large body of musical history as all being down to one composition, great and influential though it may have been...
lapamful He said "one of the most ..." No one here dismissed any large body of musical history, nor anything else for that matter.
I've been anticipating a John Williams video, very excited to see Holst as well! I have fond memories of "The Planets" playing trumpet and helping my music peers through High School.
Thank you, Rick!
As soon as I saw your title for this, as I know the works of both composers pretty well, the first thing I thought was how much is he going to talk about Mars on this since it so obviously influenced Williams. I enjoy that you were able to hear it, too!
Bruckner's 9th symphony, 2nd movement may have inspired Holst's ostinato in the Mars theme.
The score from Gladiator during the battle sequence is basically a rip off of Mars as well! I also really love your channel. I've never subscribed to something so fast!
Amanda August Hans Zimmer got sued over it. Gladiator is blatantly more of a rip off.
@@kennydreadfuls861 Yeah, huge chunks of Gladiator are cut-and-pasted from Spartacus and Fall of the Roman Empire.
Paul Watson and the battle music is more than a hint of Mars.
@@kennydreadfuls861 It often IS Mars, note for note.
Thanks Rick, I'm a music teacher and we are listening and dissecting Holst's "The Planets" in relation to the history (particularly the pandemic and WW1) that was occurring at the same time. I'm trying to get teach them that art is not created in a bubble but is affected by the environment the composer is part of. I'm using this video as a connection to Star Wars, which my students have said they heard repeatedly.
Great resource, love you to do more of these and something about Emily Remler. I've got some wonderful bootleg concerts on my TH-cam page, and her playing live is even more stunning than her studio recordings. Have a wonderful day!!
BRILLIANT video! Over the years I have heard so many film scores that have taken whole pages of music from Clause Debussy and it goes way beyond "influence."
So that's where Jimmy Page got the start of the figure from 'Friends'.
Rick, if you’re out there checking out responses to older videos, might it be possible for you to interview Robert Greenberg, the great and popular GreatCourses music lecturer? I’m sure you would have an epic discussion with him.
My city's local Symphony started their season playing selections from The Planets as well as some from The Force Awakens. Words can not describe the feeling of listening to 'Mars' being played live!
Still waiting for the commentary on "Fantasia on a Theme by Thomas Tallis!"
Doug Leins agreed!
at 14:40 you will recognise a phrase.
5:06 sounds like Kylo Ren's theme from the Force Awakens lol
I've been looking for this a long time...thank you sir!!!! the library lady will thank you... I've drove her crazy about this subject!!! :)
Rick, great video. You are a great instructor and talent. Thanks for all of your videos.
To be fair that ostinato pattern is not unique and not first used by Holst. Wagner used it in his Ring Cycle when Wotan and Loge descend into the Earth to find the Ring.
And R Strauss in Ein Heldenleben
that Nibelung theme in Reingold is in a compound meter with a way different harmony; i don't think they're related, but i'll admit Wagner was a more likely inspiration for Holst than his own contemporary, Stravinsky
and the Ewok & imperial/vader marches were strongly influenced by Prokofiev's Love for three oranges march and scherzo as well,though not a direct lift like the Holst here.
Great video to watch. Both informative and entertaining. Thanks!
Amazing amount of info you have professor.
Incredibly informative and helpful. thanks so very much
Star Wars vs. The planets. Actually sounds like a sequel 😂🤣
Danny Elfman please and thank you for yet again an amazing video
What an ignorant comment. Danny Elfman has written several original pieces. There is a definable difference between composers and orchestrators.
Hi Rick! Thanks again! It's really hard as a working musician to find content that's still useful and provides me with knowledge I didn't have before and that's not only aimed at aspiring musicians! I really look forward to much more along these lines from you! Thank you and big cheers from Hamburg!
One of my favorite videos of yours, Rick! Wonderful!
Fantastic analysis. Really ought to have loaded up a patch with better attack though!
John Williams vs Stravinsky
Star Wars' OSTs are heavily influenced by Stravinsky
Tuan Ngo Hoang Anh Frankly, I dont hear any Stravinsky in John Williams at all. On the other hand Ive only heard Rite of Spring, Petroushka, and Les Noces.
Brumel's Parakeet
just listen to rite of spring, part 2, introduction.
It's Tatooine all over the place:)
Brumel's Parakeet Try his War of the Worlds soundtrack. Very close to the Rite of Spring.
But is it Rite of Spring or Debussy's Nuages? Therein lies the question lol
Just the bit on Tatooine.
How have I missed this video for five years? Genius.
Awesome video. Thanks for sharing
Yeah, it actually goes further than just being told to emulate. Back then, convention was to edit the film to classical music early in the process prior to time locking the film. There is no doubt that Lucas used that convention and edited the film to a recording of Mars and Williams was forced to go in that route. This even becomes more evident when you see some moments in the desert that were clearly Stravinsky Rite of Spring that Williams was also had to work into his own sound.
For a "Space Opera" (as Williams describes it), the planets works incredibly well. I know Lucas with the prequels even did the editing to cues from the originals. If you look at the tempo and beat structures, they overlap for several cues in the prequels.
I don't have time to research it, but I've always wanted to look and see what commercial recordings of the planets were available in the 70's when they made the film and see which one they edited the film to.
Also, just for proof of that editing trick, Stanley Kubrick in directing 2001 a Space Odyssey actually hired Alex North (Sparticus etc) to write a score for the film, but they edited the film to classical music, didn't like Alex's score, so simply used the classical music instead.
Fascinating Andrew! Thanks!!
The studio hired Alex North. Kubrick, ever the a$$hole that he was, had never had any intention of using North's wonderful score.
It's an absolute fact that the Planets was used by Lucas at first. It was a challenge for Williams to stay in that lock step already provided by the temp tracks while still making it as original and freshly Williams sounding as possible! I think history has proven he did "ahright".
Sort of the audio equivalent of using World War 2 dogfight footage to fill in for where the space combat was going/would roughly look like while they finished filming it?
Williams draws from Stravinsky The Rites of Spring as well
super cool. So similar where does influence by end and copied begin
my thoughts too but even Stravinsky said "A good composer does not imitate, he steals"
Yes,this is great. Thanks. I definitely hear Stavisnky and some Ravel in JW's music, but this is just mind blowing...Just bought the London Symphony version of 'The Planets'. Yours is arguably the greatest music channel on you tube. Thanks for sharing.
The best episode EVER. I hope you can talk about Henry Mancini and John Barry. Thank you very much!
Also the begining of the piece sounds alot like the begining of "Am I Evil" by Diamond Head!!! Wonder if Diamond Head was influenced by Holst
Yep. It's pretty much taken directly from this.
Mars was a direct influence on a lot of early metal lol.
Compare Mars to the song "Black Sabbath". Could be quite interesting.
Rick - As a trumpet player in high school in the late 70's, I remember our band director playing the Star Wars soundtrack and comparing it to the Holst's Planets pieces (Mars
and Jupiter) we were playing. Love your videos.
Thanks for taking the time! It's just great stuff you are presenting here on this channel :)
/Per
When is Saturn ever going to get love? Mars is THE most overplayed classical song. Sigh. Ah well, I appreciate the in depth geek love. 😁
It's like, no one even knows that there's an hour more of absolutely brilliant music after "O Fortuna" in Orff's Carmina Burana!
The first several times I listened to the Planets, it was just background music to working and I was entertained enough by what I could hear and not worried about the 'silent' parts in Saturn. Then one day I took the time to stop and listen to Saturn entirely - what an incredible journey of emotion I was missing, lush and powerful. I'm with you on this one, Saturn is not to be eclipsed by Mars or Jupiter.
And when is Uranus ever gonna get some love?
@@matiasdg
As soon as men are aren't made fun of for getting pe- Oh, you meant the music piece...
there is no comparison, Holst was a genius beyond comparison
The music sound alike. That's the comparison. Being stubbornly star struck with your favorite musicians is very annoying.
Sincerely, Holst is superior, although Williams is not bad. But without the movies Williams would have died in anonimity, not Holst. 😉
How many works by Holst are you familiar with? He wrote more, but most of them seem less inspired than The Planets. Williams has many brilliant movie scores that I can hum from memory, and that I love; Seven Years in Tibet, Schindlers List, Saving Private Ryan, Empire of the Sun, Jurassic Park, the Indiana Jones movies, the Star Wars movies, and I'm just getting started. I don't mean any disrespect to Holst, but Williams is a musical giant in my book, it's only because he works largely in the popular genre of film scores that he is underrated as an artist.
@@musiclistsareus1029 Holst had to do a load of teaching to make ends meet.
Great Rick, thank you for this valueble information, Cheers, Jeroen
I just came here from another video, much more recent. I am at the point of "Context means everything"
The other video was debating influence vs rip off. I have read several comments here that Lucas wanted an adaptation of Holst's work, but Williams proposed original music in the 'style'.
Rick says he left that out as he did not know if this is a fact. In this context it is brilliant work of Williams to
create the pieces that are different yet carry the same sound. The blend of the instrumentation is basically identical, even though the actual score if different.
This high lights why context is soooo important. I can say July 18 2022, I have learned something new.
Can you do this for Greta Van Fleet and Led Zeppelin? 😂😄
Check out 'Kings Row' main theme and compare that to SW main theme.
I also got Back To The Future vibes from it
Great video. Fascinating. I love Holst's Mars. It is so powerful.
Thankyou for posting this.
Just stumbled onto Holst - the Planets is an outstanding piece of work. John Williams is in any movie goers DNA...forever.
For those of you who don know, a tritone is another word for an augmented 4th. Think c to f (perfect 4th) but with f raised a semi-tone to f#.
C Bentler Thank you.
C Bentler or diminished fifth! C to Gb
Yes, enharmonic equivalents....
Or a double demented 13.5th! C to X-flat
Just about every song in West Side Story includes a tritone, most notably, "Maria."