I did rebuilds on numerous spindles during my 26 years as a CNC tech on Mazak machines. The reason for the grease being thrown out of the bearing is that the bearing must be totally dry (no oil) before it is greased. The grease does not stick properly to the bearing if there is any oil present. I used to wash the bearings in an acetone bath before fitment.
Just rebuilt my spindle today with your help, so thank you! My machine was cutting good parts but the whining noise was driving my coworkers crazy. My lower bearings were still fine, the top of my upper bearings looked like it had a little contamination/corrosion. Just finished the break-in and the noise level is way, way better. Hopefully it will last another couple years.
I miss my old job at a spindle repair company where I worked. I was a breakdown tech. I started at the very bottom breaking them down then cleaning them. Was wanting to rebuild them but the company got bought out and will be moving out of state soon. Still enjoy watching these videos though!! Thanks for filming it!
@@maxg7446, справочник Анурьева. Если хотите постичь дуплексирование - Вам нужно микронное оборудование (для замеров), поверочная плита и тд, - это не дёшево. И-да, - самое главное нужно чтобы был плоскошлифовальный станок. Я сделал проще, - купил двухрядный радиально упорный подшипник NSK
I bought in the past GMN bearing from Germany that come shielded very good quality and the price is lower than NSK and the precision grade was P2 (ABEC 9). Also next time heat your bearing in toaster oven and put your shaft in the freezer overnight. Your assembly will be super slide fit and you will be able to screw the bearing nut to the proper torque without having to fight against friction.
16:35 When having bearings in this arrangement it actually is quite important to torque them accordingly, that is specifically important for the longlivity of the bearings. If you put it too tight the stress on the bearing can easily become problematic, it's good that you were gentle. They should provide a spec
I had a similar problem to one of your older videos. I had a part pull out the vise and ended up stalling out the mill by jamming against the part/vise/end mill (it was exciting). Had the same symptoms with the spindle binding up and noticed I had the same rubbing issue on that collar. I measured about .0002" of run out on my BT30 mounting face. I believe the spindle is good and that collar is a little to tight and messing with my world right now. Back to your bearing question, my spindle has sealed bearings, HP7008C-2RZTN1/P5 DBA for the bigger bearing and HP7006C-2RZTN12/P5 DBA for the smaller bearing. Thanks for the informative video.. Also I use XTREME CUT 250C and it doesn't nearly eat away at my paint like yours does. I have been using it for about 4 years and am really happy with it. You can always ask the distributor for a sample 5 gallon bucket to try it out.
Thanks, yeah sounds like you just need a bit more clearance on that collar. I started out using 251c but I need to machine composites as well as metal. From what I understand that coolant is for metals only. I'll just live with the paint being stripped, not a big deal to me, eventually it will be nice clean bare metal.🖖
Hey, Jayson. The oil that is puddling around the spindle is pnuematic lubricant coming from the power drawbar and oil from the coolant mist. Mostly from coolant mist. Thanks for the video. Just submitted my request for a new spindle with tormach. If they warrantee it (like they should), I’ll be replacing the bearings in the bad spindle.
Definitely possible that it's the air piston oil, it's the right color. I don't think it's coolant spray since my coolant concentrate is clear, unless there's a bunch of oil in my coolant. I might need a better skimmer.
@@vcedge9466 Yeah take a look at the paint in there. Top of my spindle motor is pealed. That’s the only thing I know of that will do that. Bad news for my spindle though. Wasn’t aware that Tormach considers a spindle a “ware item” and is not covered under warranty. Bummer…. Let me know how that bearing upgrade holds up. I’ll be upgrading mine very soon.
Great to see you making videos again. Awesome video by the way. Think I'll attempt the rebuild my spindle when it fails after seeing this. Once again Tormach end users fixing their issues.... /sigh
A lot spindle repair technicians will massage the grease of the bearings. before sticking them in the spindle. Robin ranzetti does a excellent video on how he and others do it. Something that you might want to look in to when you do a replacement next time.
I saw that video pretty much right after doing all this. I did some not ideal things but overall not too bad. I'll definitely be doing that technique on the next one.
Robin is awesome and has great tips, I am wondering though. On the video he made it seem that those bearings are overfilled with grease. according to NSK, the bearing is supposed to only be filled 15% of the free space avaible within it.
@@annaarz5353 no I dont believe so he measured the amount out. I think it seems that way. because of him running the bearing pushing the grease back and forth.
I followed Robin's procedure during a grinder spindle rebuild. Saved a couple thousand $$$, but it was time-consuming, and I'm still not confident I did it right. But, it was a good experience. Thanks for making this video!
17:00 "I guess the torque doesn't matter". Oh yes it does ! It sets the preload, and that is the single largest factor when dealing with spindle bearings. The NSK docs will go into it in excruciating detail most likely.
The NSK documents do not tell you what torque to set that collar to. Tormach does have a service bulletin document for an older mill (completely different spindle design) that is a good starting point and calls for 5 degrees extra after contact. I read everything I could find to try to figure out what it should actually be but I learned it doesn't quite work that way. I do believe that it should be torqued within a certain range but the preload for these type of bearings is not set by the collar torque. The preload is set by the bearing set as manufactured by NSK. They even have a designation on them for low preload, medium, and high. in this case it's the "L" at the end of the part number 7008CTRDUL for low preload, they also make the same bearings with an M and H at the end. That is not telling you to preload them lightly it is telling you that they are ground in a way that when tightened together they have a low preload and they have specific numbers on what they mean by that.
@@vcedge9466 The nut torque (and how it's installed) is important and even if NSK doesn't define it, other mfg do. Trouble is I doubt this spindle is built to standard where details really matter. Cap torque is a bit tougher to find, but I don't think fastener spec is correct either. So many things can be a factor. Reading here I'm surprised how short spindle life is in these machines. It will be interesting to see if it's bearing quality or overall manufacture/assembly/design which defines longevity.
At 7:54, the spacers mic out the same. If so, then the larger spacer would be floating. The bearing inner race width is usually wider than the outside race by at least a few thou anyway. I don't understand the larger spacers function in that assy. I would think that it would preload the bearing races when torquing the cap down. Or is that the design of that "spindle assembly"? I have no spindle experience. Just trying to grasp it all. Thanks Great video by the way. Part numbers, grease volumes to boot.
The way the bearing are designed, in a situation where they sit in direct contact with each other, the outer races contact first then the inner after being tightened down with the nut. The amount of pressure that the outer race gets is determined by how the bearing set was made. It's actually shown in the part number, The "L" in this case indicates "light" preload. There is also a medium and I believe a heavy option. In order to preserve this preload condition the spacer have to be exactly the same length. I don't know exactly why the spacers are there in the spindle design but my guess is that it increases the overall stability of the setup.
Very good video, we have cnc router router that we had to replace the spindle on last year, different configuration but i would assume the working principles are the same, what happen it just got to where it would move over the tool to make too make a change, push down to load the tool and stop, it was like the gripper would not close down on the tool Itself, thoroughly cleaned and lubricated the grippers but got the same result, re cycled the machine while it was over the tool in the load postion I gave a tap wlth a dead blow hammer and picked up the tool. I would assume that there are some type of spring or connical washer either broken or sticking. called around most spindle rebuider's where telling me that between 8and 14k to rebuild. I actully purchased a used one off ebay and has worked fine , thought bout just tearing into the old one and attempting to do the repair or rebuild myself, just dont think it could be that complicated, i have a lot of experince rebuilding other type's of machine spindles for example moulders and shaper's.
Good idea getting some sealed bearings on hand, as well as drilling those holes. If you have sealed bearings next time, you should try heating them up before installing. How have those bearings been holding up? Thanks for the video.
Sealed ones seem to be a little harder to find but that would help. I'll definitely heat them next time, that would be a much more clean and delicate way to do it. The bearings are holding up fine but the lower ones runs hotter than I'd like. Next time I'll try reducing the amount of grease a bit and see if that does does it.
Hey Jay, I was just talking to my dad about you, and your video on the Spindle replacement.. plus raving about your knives. I was discussing that you've replaced your spindle bearings a couple times now and your machine is going pretty much non-stop.. So, I went back to see if you made a video on when you got your machine. I saw the video on machining carbon fiber. My Uncle Ernie, who passed away suddenly a couple years ago, on Dec 16th (MASTER Machinist to say the least) said you can't easily cut carbon fiber and warned about cutting it, as it may mess up your CNC bearings or other things.. like the small conductive fibers that can possibly get into your servos, etc. Do you think it's possible, that small fragments of the carbon fiber, got up into your upper spindle bearings, leading to pre-mature failure? I noticed you run coolant. I haven't gone through all your videos, so I'm unsure if you run some type of a filter, but Carbon itself is one of the hardest substances on earth. Great material, but it has consequences according to my uncle. I wish I could call him up right now and ask his opinion, but sadly, I have to look for other source of information, or spread the weee bit of knowledge he shared. You'd have loved that dude in your shop! He'd do math in his head and has stuff still in his old shop, that's a mystery to me how it even functions. Cheers.
You're right about carbon fiber being hazardous for many reasons. It even takes diamonds to cut it effectively. Which is why I run coolant that eats paint (and I don't care) and filter it down to 1 micron. I think if carbon was getting into the bearings I would see some evidence of that in the old ones, which there isn't any black residue that I can see. The coolant 2 years in has been doing a great job of keeping carbon residue off of critical parts in the machine and the shop overall. Uncle Ernie sounds like a great guy!
Great video, thanks! Shocking to see the orings sliced up straight from factory. Just a small chamfer would take care of that but I guess it's 1 op too many for the factory 😔
So I followed this video and replaced my old bearings with the ones you used. Spindle is immaculate. However now i am having trouble with spindle orientation.
FYI VC, before changing bearings I attempted to spin spindle faster, and it was not happy even around 12.5k. This was about 6 months ago or so. I just replaced bearings because I washed them with a ton of mist coolant/lube, and they weren't happy with that either.......so after swapping bearings I was able to spin up to 15k with no issues. I havent tried cutting anything, but figured this may be useful, at least with short toolpaths with small tools.
You wouldn't happen to have one of the old spindles laying around would you? I'm looking for the outer diameter and length of the cartridge housing above the mounting flange.
It's interesting that the new bearings get hot just like the stock ones. I fully expected that the bearings in my spindle were getting hot because they are cheap and low quality. I pointed one of my coolant nozzles directly at the spindle nose to help carry the heat away. It helps significantly. I think in the future I will make a collar that fits the nose of the spindle, with the nozzles pointing towards the tool, that way the coolant flowing through the collar can take some heat, and the coolant still gets sprayed on the tool.
It is interesting. My original with sealed bearings ran nice and cool. The other defective open ones were hot and didn't last long (1 month). These ones get hot too but are lasting fine so far (3 months now). If I was a little smarter I might be able to figure out why. My best guess right now is the amount of grease needs to be just right for the higher rpm and perhaps slightly less than what I put in.
Any update on how the bearings are going now? I have read that getting the preload nut torque is actually quite important... too loose and you get play, and the bearings die. Too tight and you get excess heat, and the bearings die. But like you I cannot find a torque spec for that anywhere. Our 1100MX is probably up for new bearings soon, after a year and a half of decently heavy use, lots of 10k rpm. It's not making the clicking noise like yours but a new high-pitch whine. Fun times!@@vcedge9466
@@vcedge9466 I was referring to the direction of the arrows compared to the ones you showed at 16:00. However, I noticed now that laser marks are different, so they are probably installed correctly also in that case. The problem must be due to overall quality and wrong lubrication.
@@Ale_Lab Right. I probably should have explained this in the video. The bearings I have are universal so they have multiple configurations. The originals are matched and have just one configuration available so the markings "line up" only one way. I'm pretty sure it's just the grease being the main problem. looking back I can see the grease even looks roasted on one of the lower bearings.
6:28 there is a P5 digits on the product code I can see, this probably means it is a P5 precision class bearings. P5 is the cheapest and the lowest quality for precision parameter. A P2 precision class is the most precise bearing, with nanometer-scale tolerances, you would have a runout of less than 1 micron on such bearings and a spindle would cost about 3k to 4k USD
They are holding up just fine. Even though the lower bearing runs just as hot as it did at the beginning it's not showing any signs of distress. I think it may just have slightly too much grease for the higher rpms. Sometimes the heat causes issues with tool changes so try to avoid that if you can.
Could the O-RINGS be just from a bad batch. They have a tendency to harden over time depending on conditions where they're being used. Do these O-Rings come in different specs? I'm only asking bcos I dont really know my friend. I'm relatively new to the Use of O-Rings but weren't the O-Rings one of the issues with the the SPACE SHUTTLES? I'm getting off topic from a CNC but u get my meaning I hope. Why are bearings so important in Spindles? Hope u don't mind me asking man.. I am hopeful that ur good self or somebody in the comment section can help me with some answers and maybe some advice on my own home built CNC Router.. Can I also ask why Balancing would be a bit over kill when it would maybe or obviously make things much better for u in the long term usage of this machine my bro??
The O-rings are not from a bad batch or age or conditions, there is a sharp edge on the entry area where the drawbar goes in. Every time I've pulled the drawbar out the O-rings were sliced up, even immediately after installation. Since chamfering and deburring that area I no longer have the problem. The space shuttle O-ring issues were because of temperatures outside of safe operating range, these drawbar ones aren't under such conditions. Generally O-rings come in many different materials and hardness, yes, so application needs to be considered. Why are bearings important in spindles? That's a broad question but essentially they provide for the primary function of the spindle and when they fail the spindle no longer works or causes many other issues with machining. Balancing may not be overkill but it's a question of value. It might be worth it but I don't have data on that yet. There are diminishing returns sometimes when you put a lot of extra into a part that is working well already.
Personally I would put one back together and sell the machine as fast as I could. Not only is it likely going to continue having problems… but I wouldn’t really want to continue supporting a company with that quality of workmanship and quality control
Hello Mr. Edge since you had the spindle out have you measured the OD of the spindle and the length of the spindle that goes in the housing? I was wondering if this spindle would work in my pcnc 1100. Thanks
Angular contact bearings should have a continues force applied. It is best not to hammer on them but have a continues force (use a press or something similar). Note the < mark. This mark tells what wall force can be applied to. Make sure to calculate out the proper grease amount G=K*Gref. Check out SKF guide on initial bearing fill (it is based on bearing inner volume and rpm). Please don't put tape on the angular contact bearing. Also, make sure to break in the bearings slowly so the grease spreads evenly in addition to evenly distributing the grease when filling the bearing.
awesome videos! looking at ordering one of these so your videos are very helpful. run a diesel engine machine shop and also a gun shop so having one of these to tinker with would be awesome! mainly would be working with aluminum and then steel for doing optic cuts and or slide cuts on pistol slides. how well does it cut through steel? thank you!
It cuts steel fine with small tooling ( 3/16 and smaller). Larger diameter tools will require shallow depth of cut and HSM strategies due to horsepower and rigidity limitations.
Depends on tool, depth of cut, rpm and feed used. Recommended motor power is around 3kw minimum for serious job. But you can work with lower power, but it will limit tools and speed you can use. If u want to play with tools feeds and speeds i can recommend u a usefull app calculator.
Try fill calculator with me, use data below. Btw. Need to switch to milling in app. Example from calculator: Cutter diameter D:20mm Number of teeths Z: 3 Feed per tooth Fz: 0.1 Should show you cca 1600rpm and feed 480mm/min
Now press calculate and it should switch to next page. There you fill: Material:(choose first one, it should be basic weldable soft steel for beams etc.) Feed per tooth: keep the same. Tool stand: keep eccentric. Side engagement of tool Ae: 3mm Depth of cut Ap: 20mm Angle of cutter k:90° And lenght Lf: doesn't matter i use 1 you need fill something otherwise it won't work.
This should show you for solid carbide 20mm endmill this: Rpm:1600 Feed:480 Sidecut:3mm Depth:20mm Needs: Power:1.5Kw Torque:8.9Nm Cutting (push in cut) force:910N Etc...
how about making one of those spindles. Completely oil lubricatet it is recomended for spindles running high rpm. In higter rpm grease becomes obstruction, because surface tension. It is like hitting water with your hand. Do that for whole day your hand is going to hurt.
An automatic spindle oil lubrication system would be pretty awesome. If there's some kind of universal retrofit out there it might be worth doing. I think with the right bearings and oil you could go for even higher rpms (12k-15k) with that setup.
Is the spindle still performing ? I thought I saw a FB thread somewhere that said you may be having it rebuilt by a professional rebuild center and at a much higher cost.
I had another one rebuilt to compare even though this one is working fine. The only issue is the heat causing tool changes to be not 100% unreliable. We will see how the professional rebuild turns out when I have some time on it. Lots more expensive though.
Great to see you making another video! I have a question about the bearings. The ones removed were sealed… the ones that went back in were open sides. I know you made a Kapon ‘cover’ but, is there a spindle nose seal at all? What stops coolant and chips working their way upto the lower bearing beyond the nose cap? Is it just your Kapon Tape seal?
The close clearance fit nose closure acts as the "seal" to prevent coolant from getting inside. I suppose as long as the spindle is turning it won't allow anything in but I can't really be sure. Every other replacement spindle I've gotten so far has been open bearings so something changed from the initial production units. Mine is a pretty low serial number.
Yep, I think I'll just start scraping the peeling paint off at this point. The synergy 735 coolant doesn't like Tormachs paint. Other painted parts like the vice and, so far, the chip tray are just fine.
@@vcedge9466 I’m setting up a new 770MX now and will be using 735… im so glad I saw this comment, I may have to take some preventative measures, the enclosure will be easier since I can take it to get powder coated or something. But for the rest of the machine I’m not sure. Btw, great vid, makes me want to take my brand new spindle apart and check the bearings 😮
Also, I realized the 1100 vinyl sticker on the enclosure seems to hold up just fine. A simple “wrap” on exposed paint of the machine in some areas might do the trick
@@JaimetheNomad That's true the sticker is holding up well. It would be difficult to vinyl wrap all the painted surfaces but at least the large flat areas would likely do better. Mine took about 6 months before starting to show signs of degradation and not everywhere that you'd think, it's kind of strange. A total repaint with something chem resistant would be a lot of work but definitely easier if done right away. Good luck!
@@vcedge9466 thanks!! Yeah I mean I’m not going to completely disassembled it, nor am I going to haul the machine to a professional shop haha so yeah I was thinking the main flat panel areas at least to do something. Aside from the enclosure, where would you say the worst areas are, for you?
@@jameshartman5574 That's ok. Perfectly reasonable to be excited about that one! Just a little teaser of a new knife I'm working on. You might see more of it soon.😁
@@vcedge9466 I’ve been using Blaser 735 in my Syil X7 for very close to 2 years, and zero issue. It’s because it’s powder coated! 735 does not like paint.
Ok, after a long series of conversations, referencing the video, Tormach was nice enough to send me a brand new spindle to swap out. So, John (amazzzzzingly helpful and SUPER nice dude by the way) and I spoke about your video here and even your response to me originally. I am going to make a video as well, before and after. It's not my motor for sure. I bypassed the spindle reference on Friday night, with John on the phone, disconnected the belt and the motor it quiet as can be. So, my spindle bearings, or something in the spindle hasn't been right since day 1. I'll be doing my own video this week, and also putting a link in to your video if you don't mind. Do you mind if I use some of your video here, with permission, to reference and link back? I'll make it a privately viewable video at first and send you a link (somehow, not public) and let you give me a thumbs up. I sincerely appreciate you! Cheers!
@@vcedge9466 Awesome! Thanks Jason. John at Tormach speaks HIGHLY of you. It's cool. Had a long chat with him on Friday. I've flipped around a bit honestly, from being critical, due to the issues I've had, to knowing problems I have will be handled. New spindle arrived in perfect condition. Just opened the crate. forgot to film. haha.. Have a great night! Your knives are just beyond amazing by the way. 4th time I've been back to your website and can't believe the work you do. Especially those bearings. WOW.
Wow! Such an awesome Channel I came over here to check you out, because of your comment over on my channel. The parts you show at 1:05 , you left tabs on there, but I have so many questions. I am doing something similar, but having a chattering issue with final cutout. Unsure how to contact you, but if you do contract work, or, you'd be willing to work as engineering consult, etc, let me know. My 1100mx is still under warranty, but Tormach has not dealt with my issue at all. My machine is brand new. The only thing I tend to do during the day, when I can't work on it, is use the lights on the machine for photo booth, lol. I'm afraid my brand new machine, with this spindle issue right from Tormach, is going to be needing bearing replacement. They've been silent and they've seen my video. Let me know! I left you a comment on my video as well, but seeing you've got activity on this already , you might be a bit busy. Thanks brother! Appreciate you taking the time to come over to let me know.
No worries, thanks for checking out the channel and I appreciate the offer. I think right now I might be too maxed out with the knife orders to be able to work on other projects. Even doing these videos is tough. It's always very intriguing though so if you'd still like to contact me I can at least take a few minutes to hear what you've got going. Not putting my email here but at www.vcedgeknives.com my contact info can be found there pretty easily.
I rebuilt my spindle with the same bearings, but it never ran as nice as a stock spindle. I ran the rebuilt spindle for about a day, then ordered a new one f4om tormach. In my case, the rebuild wax an expensive waste of time, especially seeing how inexpensive a tormach spindle is.
8000RMP grease will be thrown out,,I don't understand how they make spindles like that,,anyone with rotation in their head can see that it won't be there very long
OMG ! and 17:38, you just tightened them together and "gave it a little extra"..... DON NOT run your mill until you redo your spindle. No wonder your bearings are failing ! These bearings are expensive, I use them too, you may have already ruined them....
Thank you but I'm not the one that built the spindles initially and this is my first attempt on this one. I'm certainly no expert but I'm learning and so far all the bearings I have replaced are running just fine. Also see my answer on your other comment for more info about the bearings.
Ah, sorry, you bought the matched pairs with faces ground as a pair. Looks like that particular spindle doesn't preload the pairs together, which is very unusual. Looks like you correctly identified the root cause at he end, theses are put together by workers ( almost slave labor, sadly, ) that don't pack them correctly. Isoflex was the best choice grease you could make.
The paint on the mill is awful, being stripped by presumably coolant, should be a two pack epoxy paint, but looks like a one pack synthetic, shocking for a reputable machine manufacturer. The loose paint flakes will get into all moving parts.
I definitely agree the paint they use is not durable,. Even the rubber trim gaskets they use causes it to break down. They should find out whatever paint the Kurt vice has on it because it's completely fine and it has been in there constantly since day 1.
I did rebuilds on numerous spindles during my 26 years as a CNC tech on Mazak machines. The reason for the grease being thrown out of the bearing is that the bearing must be totally dry (no oil) before it is greased. The grease does not stick properly to the bearing if there is any oil present. I used to wash the bearings in an acetone bath before fitment.
Super smart. Thanx for the ideea.
Interesting. Thanks for sharing your knowledge.
that button you have on the power drawbar is such a great idea, I'm gonna copy it
Please do! Hope it helps.
Just rebuilt my spindle today with your help, so thank you! My machine was cutting good parts but the whining noise was driving my coworkers crazy. My lower bearings were still fine, the top of my upper bearings looked like it had a little contamination/corrosion. Just finished the break-in and the noise level is way, way better. Hopefully it will last another couple years.
Glad to hear it!! Happy I was able to help.
Very informative video on a spindle rebuild ^^ Remember watching Robin Renzetti's tips video a few years back and learning a ton
I miss my old job at a spindle repair company where I worked. I was a breakdown tech. I started at the very bottom breaking them down then cleaning them. Was wanting to rebuild them but the company got bought out and will be moving out of state soon. Still enjoy watching these videos though!! Thanks for filming it!
good afternoon, can you please recommend some good literature on repairing and duplexing spindles?
@@maxg7446, справочник Анурьева.
Если хотите постичь дуплексирование - Вам нужно микронное оборудование (для замеров), поверочная плита и тд, - это не дёшево.
И-да, - самое главное нужно чтобы был плоскошлифовальный станок.
Я сделал проще, - купил двухрядный радиально упорный подшипник NSK
I bought in the past GMN bearing from Germany that come shielded very good quality and the price is lower than NSK and the precision grade was P2 (ABEC 9). Also next time heat your bearing in toaster oven and put your shaft in the freezer overnight. Your assembly will be super slide fit and you will be able to screw the bearing nut to the proper torque without having to fight against friction.
Those would certainly be some worthy improvements to this process. Thanks for pointing those things out! I'll check out those bearings also.
You may not want to put the shaft in the freezer, because of the water vapors that instantly form when the hot bearing is being put on.
16:35 When having bearings in this arrangement it actually is quite important to torque them accordingly, that is specifically important for the longlivity of the bearings. If you put it too tight the stress on the bearing can easily become problematic, it's good that you were gentle. They should provide a spec
I had a similar problem to one of your older videos. I had a part pull out the vise and ended up stalling out the mill by jamming against the part/vise/end mill (it was exciting). Had the same symptoms with the spindle binding up and noticed I had the same rubbing issue on that collar. I measured about .0002" of run out on my BT30 mounting face. I believe the spindle is good and that collar is a little to tight and messing with my world right now. Back to your bearing question, my spindle has sealed bearings, HP7008C-2RZTN1/P5 DBA for the bigger bearing and HP7006C-2RZTN12/P5 DBA for the smaller bearing. Thanks for the informative video..
Also I use XTREME CUT 250C and it doesn't nearly eat away at my paint like yours does. I have been using it for about 4 years and am really happy with it. You can always ask the distributor for a sample 5 gallon bucket to try it out.
Thanks, yeah sounds like you just need a bit more clearance on that collar. I started out using 251c but I need to machine composites as well as metal. From what I understand that coolant is for metals only. I'll just live with the paint being stripped, not a big deal to me, eventually it will be nice clean bare metal.🖖
Hey, Jayson. The oil that is puddling around the spindle is pnuematic lubricant coming from the power drawbar and oil from the coolant mist. Mostly from coolant mist. Thanks for the video. Just submitted my request for a new spindle with tormach. If they warrantee it (like they should), I’ll be replacing the bearings in the bad spindle.
Definitely possible that it's the air piston oil, it's the right color. I don't think it's coolant spray since my coolant concentrate is clear, unless there's a bunch of oil in my coolant. I might need a better skimmer.
@@vcedge9466 Yeah take a look at the paint in there. Top of my spindle motor is pealed. That’s the only thing I know of that will do that. Bad news for my spindle though. Wasn’t aware that Tormach considers a spindle a “ware item” and is not covered under warranty. Bummer…. Let me know how that bearing upgrade holds up. I’ll be upgrading mine very soon.
Fantastic teardown and explanation. Thank you!
You're welcome!
Great to see you making videos again. Awesome video by the way. Think I'll attempt the rebuild my spindle when it fails after seeing this. Once again Tormach end users fixing their issues.... /sigh
A lot spindle repair technicians will massage the grease of the bearings. before sticking them in the spindle. Robin ranzetti does a excellent video on how he and others do it. Something that you might want to look in to when you do a replacement next time.
I saw that video pretty much right after doing all this. I did some not ideal things but overall not too bad. I'll definitely be doing that technique on the next one.
Robin is awesome and has great tips, I am wondering though. On the video he made it seem that those bearings are overfilled with grease. according to NSK, the bearing is supposed to only be filled 15% of the free space avaible within it.
@@annaarz5353 no I dont believe so he measured the amount out. I think it seems that way. because of him running the bearing pushing the grease back and forth.
I followed Robin's procedure during a grinder spindle rebuild. Saved a couple thousand $$$, but it was time-consuming, and I'm still not confident I did it right. But, it was a good experience. Thanks for making this video!
17:00 "I guess the torque doesn't matter". Oh yes it does ! It sets the preload, and that is the single largest factor when dealing with spindle bearings. The NSK docs will go into it in excruciating detail most likely.
The NSK documents do not tell you what torque to set that collar to. Tormach does have a service bulletin document for an older mill (completely different spindle design) that is a good starting point and calls for 5 degrees extra after contact. I read everything I could find to try to figure out what it should actually be but I learned it doesn't quite work that way. I do believe that it should be torqued within a certain range but the preload for these type of bearings is not set by the collar torque. The preload is set by the bearing set as manufactured by NSK. They even have a designation on them for low preload, medium, and high. in this case it's the "L" at the end of the part number 7008CTRDUL for low preload, they also make the same bearings with an M and H at the end. That is not telling you to preload them lightly it is telling you that they are ground in a way that when tightened together they have a low preload and they have specific numbers on what they mean by that.
@@vcedge9466 The nut torque (and how it's installed) is important and even if NSK doesn't define it, other mfg do. Trouble is I doubt this spindle is built to standard where details really matter. Cap torque is a bit tougher to find, but I don't think fastener spec is correct either. So many things can be a factor. Reading here I'm surprised how short spindle life is in these machines. It will be interesting to see if it's bearing quality or overall manufacture/assembly/design which defines longevity.
@@rcdieselrc No doubt there is plenty of room for improvement. If you find more information we can all use please do share.
At 7:54, the spacers mic out the same. If so, then the larger spacer would be floating. The bearing inner race width is usually wider than the outside race by at least a few thou anyway. I don't understand the larger spacers function in that assy. I would think that it would preload the bearing races when torquing the cap down. Or is that the design of that "spindle assembly"? I have no spindle experience. Just trying to grasp it all. Thanks
Great video by the way. Part numbers, grease volumes to boot.
The way the bearing are designed, in a situation where they sit in direct contact with each other, the outer races contact first then the inner after being tightened down with the nut. The amount of pressure that the outer race gets is determined by how the bearing set was made. It's actually shown in the part number, The "L" in this case indicates "light" preload. There is also a medium and I believe a heavy option. In order to preserve this preload condition the spacer have to be exactly the same length. I don't know exactly why the spacers are there in the spindle design but my guess is that it increases the overall stability of the setup.
Very good video, we have cnc router router that we had to replace the spindle on last year, different configuration but i would assume the working principles are the same, what happen it just got to where it would move over the tool to make too make a change, push down to load the tool and stop, it was like the gripper would not close down on the tool Itself, thoroughly cleaned and lubricated the grippers but got the same result, re cycled the machine while it was over the tool in the load postion I gave a tap wlth a dead blow hammer and picked up the tool. I would assume that there are some type of spring or connical washer either broken or sticking. called around most spindle rebuider's where telling me that between 8and 14k to rebuild. I actully purchased a used one off ebay and has worked fine , thought bout just tearing into the old one and attempting to do the repair or rebuild myself, just dont think it could be that complicated, i have a lot of experince rebuilding other type's of machine spindles for example moulders and shaper's.
Just wondering how ths preload can be correct when you have the tape on outer bearing race face and not on the inner?
Most excellent video! Thank you very much for this.
You are very welcome! Happy to help.
Good idea getting some sealed bearings on hand, as well as drilling those holes. If you have sealed bearings next time, you should try heating them up before installing. How have those bearings been holding up? Thanks for the video.
Sealed ones seem to be a little harder to find but that would help. I'll definitely heat them next time, that would be a much more clean and delicate way to do it. The bearings are holding up fine but the lower ones runs hotter than I'd like. Next time I'll try reducing the amount of grease a bit and see if that does does it.
This is an awesome video!
Thank you for all the detail on the parts and repair process!
My pleasure, I hope it helps. Thanks for watching!
Hey Jay, I was just talking to my dad about you, and your video on the Spindle replacement.. plus raving about your knives. I was discussing that you've replaced your spindle bearings a couple times now and your machine is going pretty much non-stop.. So, I went back to see if you made a video on when you got your machine. I saw the video on machining carbon fiber.
My Uncle Ernie, who passed away suddenly a couple years ago, on Dec 16th (MASTER Machinist to say the least) said you can't easily cut carbon fiber and warned about cutting it, as it may mess up your CNC bearings or other things.. like the small conductive fibers that can possibly get into your servos, etc.
Do you think it's possible, that small fragments of the carbon fiber, got up into your upper spindle bearings, leading to pre-mature failure?
I noticed you run coolant. I haven't gone through all your videos, so I'm unsure if you run some type of a filter, but Carbon itself is one of the hardest substances on earth. Great material, but it has consequences according to my uncle. I wish I could call him up right now and ask his opinion, but sadly, I have to look for other source of information, or spread the weee bit of knowledge he shared. You'd have loved that dude in your shop! He'd do math in his head and has stuff still in his old shop, that's a mystery to me how it even functions. Cheers.
You're right about carbon fiber being hazardous for many reasons. It even takes diamonds to cut it effectively. Which is why I run coolant that eats paint (and I don't care) and filter it down to 1 micron. I think if carbon was getting into the bearings I would see some evidence of that in the old ones, which there isn't any black residue that I can see. The coolant 2 years in has been doing a great job of keeping carbon residue off of critical parts in the machine and the shop overall. Uncle Ernie sounds like a great guy!
Great video, thanks! Shocking to see the orings sliced up straight from factory. Just a small chamfer would take care of that but I guess it's 1 op too many for the factory 😔
So I followed this video and replaced my old bearings with the ones you used. Spindle is immaculate. However now i am having trouble with spindle orientation.
Why are the painting falling of your machine ?
FYI VC, before changing bearings I attempted to spin spindle faster, and it was not happy even around 12.5k. This was about 6 months ago or so. I just replaced bearings because I washed them with a ton of mist coolant/lube, and they weren't happy with that either.......so after swapping bearings I was able to spin up to 15k with no issues. I havent tried cutting anything, but figured this may be useful, at least with short toolpaths with small tools.
Interesting. What bearings did you use? How did you program it to do 12k or 15k? That's definitely something I'd like to try.
You wouldn't happen to have one of the old spindles laying around would you? I'm looking for the outer diameter and length of the cartridge housing above the mounting flange.
Sorry my Friend Where can buy this Spindle and show me the name size, please?
Hey Jason! Long time no see. Great video as always, hope the business is doing well. Ciao, Marco.
*4:30** Nice knife, what is it?*
Do you gonna upload again?
good afternoon, can you please recommend some good literature on repairing and duplexing spindles?
Brilliant Video
Where did you purchase the bearings from and how have they faired?
Hi Great Video.....
does the new spindle have a maker name on the box?
It's interesting that the new bearings get hot just like the stock ones. I fully expected that the bearings in my spindle were getting hot because they are cheap and low quality. I pointed one of my coolant nozzles directly at the spindle nose to help carry the heat away. It helps significantly. I think in the future I will make a collar that fits the nose of the spindle, with the nozzles pointing towards the tool, that way the coolant flowing through the collar can take some heat, and the coolant still gets sprayed on the tool.
It is interesting. My original with sealed bearings ran nice and cool.
The other defective open ones were hot and didn't last long (1 month).
These ones get hot too but are lasting fine so far (3 months now). If I was a little smarter I might be able to figure out why. My best guess right now is the amount of grease needs to be just right for the higher rpm and perhaps slightly less than what I put in.
Any update on how the bearings are going now? I have read that getting the preload nut torque is actually quite important... too loose and you get play, and the bearings die. Too tight and you get excess heat, and the bearings die. But like you I cannot find a torque spec for that anywhere. Our 1100MX is probably up for new bearings soon, after a year and a half of decently heavy use, lots of 10k rpm. It's not making the clicking noise like yours but a new high-pitch whine. Fun times!@@vcedge9466
The other spindle you showed had the AC bearings mounted in the wrong orientation (21:40). That might also explain why they failed prematurely
What about the orientation do you think is wrong? You mean how the markings on the outside aren't lined up or the direction of the arrows?
@@vcedge9466 I was referring to the direction of the arrows compared to the ones you showed at 16:00. However, I noticed now that laser marks are different, so they are probably installed correctly also in that case. The problem must be due to overall quality and wrong lubrication.
@@Ale_Lab Right. I probably should have explained this in the video. The bearings I have are universal so they have multiple configurations. The originals are matched and have just one configuration available so the markings "line up" only one way. I'm pretty sure it's just the grease being the main problem. looking back I can see the grease even looks roasted on one of the lower bearings.
@@vcedge9466 Thanks for the explanation 😊. Really looking forward to the new knife series, if you are planning on filming about it
Nice job! How’s this spindle holding up? I wish I could get on for my pcnc1100 it would be awesome to have a 30 taper.
do you still make knives?
6:28 there is a P5 digits on the product code I can see, this probably means it is a P5 precision class bearings. P5 is the cheapest and the lowest quality for precision parameter. A P2 precision class is the most precise bearing, with nanometer-scale tolerances, you would have a runout of less than 1 micron on such bearings and a spindle would cost about 3k to 4k USD
Nice job are the new NSK bearing holding up still ?
They are holding up just fine. Even though the lower bearing runs just as hot as it did at the beginning it's not showing any signs of distress. I think it may just have slightly too much grease for the higher rpms. Sometimes the heat causes issues with tool changes so try to avoid that if you can.
Could the O-RINGS be just from a bad batch. They have a tendency to harden over time depending on conditions where they're being used.
Do these O-Rings come in different specs? I'm only asking bcos I dont really know my friend. I'm relatively new to the Use of O-Rings but weren't the O-Rings one of the issues with the the SPACE SHUTTLES?
I'm getting off topic from a CNC but u get my meaning I hope.
Why are bearings so important in Spindles? Hope u don't mind me asking man.. I am hopeful that ur good self or somebody in the comment section can help me with some answers and maybe some advice on my own home built CNC Router..
Can I also ask why Balancing would be a bit over kill when it would maybe or obviously make things much better for u in the long term usage of this machine my bro??
The O-rings are not from a bad batch or age or conditions, there is a sharp edge on the entry area where the drawbar goes in. Every time I've pulled the drawbar out the O-rings were sliced up, even immediately after installation. Since chamfering and deburring that area I no longer have the problem. The space shuttle O-ring issues were because of temperatures outside of safe operating range, these drawbar ones aren't under such conditions. Generally O-rings come in many different materials and hardness, yes, so application needs to be considered. Why are bearings important in spindles? That's a broad question but essentially they provide for the primary function of the spindle and when they fail the spindle no longer works or causes many other issues with machining. Balancing may not be overkill but it's a question of value. It might be worth it but I don't have data on that yet. There are diminishing returns sometimes when you put a lot of extra into a part that is working well already.
Personally I would put one back together and sell the machine as fast as I could. Not only is it likely going to continue having problems… but I wouldn’t really want to continue supporting a company with that quality of workmanship and quality control
Understandable. What would you get in it's place that has similar specifications?
Hello Mr. Edge since you had the spindle out have you measured the OD of the spindle and the length of the spindle that goes in the housing? I was wondering if this spindle would work in my pcnc 1100. Thanks
Angular contact bearings should have a continues force applied. It is best not to hammer on them but have a continues force (use a press or something similar). Note the < mark. This mark tells what wall force can be applied to. Make sure to calculate out the proper grease amount G=K*Gref. Check out SKF guide on initial bearing fill (it is based on bearing inner volume and rpm). Please don't put tape on the angular contact bearing. Also, make sure to break in the bearings slowly so the grease spreads evenly in addition to evenly distributing the grease when filling the bearing.
Thank you
awesome videos! looking at ordering one of these so your videos are very helpful. run a diesel engine machine shop and also a gun shop so having one of these to tinker with would be awesome! mainly would be working with aluminum and then steel for doing optic cuts and or slide cuts on pistol slides. how well does it cut through steel? thank you!
It cuts steel fine with small tooling ( 3/16 and smaller). Larger diameter tools will require shallow depth of cut and HSM strategies due to horsepower and rigidity limitations.
How much NM(newton force) / Kw of a spindle power as minimum required for steel milling process ?
Depends on tool, depth of cut, rpm and feed used. Recommended motor power is around 3kw minimum for serious job. But you can work with lower power, but it will limit tools and speed you can use. If u want to play with tools feeds and speeds i can recommend u a usefull app calculator.
Its from german company which sells tools. Its thier calculator. Look on google for "Hoffmann Group Machining Calculator"
Try fill calculator with me, use data below. Btw. Need to switch to milling in app.
Example from calculator:
Cutter diameter D:20mm
Number of teeths Z: 3
Feed per tooth Fz: 0.1
Should show you cca 1600rpm and feed 480mm/min
Now press calculate and it should switch to next page.
There you fill:
Material:(choose first one, it should be basic weldable soft steel for beams etc.)
Feed per tooth: keep the same.
Tool stand: keep eccentric.
Side engagement of tool Ae: 3mm
Depth of cut Ap: 20mm
Angle of cutter k:90°
And lenght Lf: doesn't matter i use 1 you need fill something otherwise it won't work.
This should show you for solid carbide 20mm endmill this:
Rpm:1600
Feed:480
Sidecut:3mm
Depth:20mm
Needs:
Power:1.5Kw
Torque:8.9Nm
Cutting (push in cut) force:910N
Etc...
I think it was necessary to grind the rings to achieve duplexing
Where can i buy the bearings and the grease? great video!
Grease on Amazon. Bearings can be found on ebay
See the video of robenz for greasing with kubler on taper bearing
how about making one of those spindles. Completely oil lubricatet it is recomended for spindles running high rpm. In higter rpm grease becomes obstruction, because surface tension. It is like hitting water with your hand. Do that for whole day your hand is going to hurt.
An automatic spindle oil lubrication system would be pretty awesome. If there's some kind of universal retrofit out there it might be worth doing. I think with the right bearings and oil you could go for even higher rpms (12k-15k) with that setup.
thanks once again
No problem, It was really interesting to investigate.
Is the spindle still performing ? I thought I saw a FB thread somewhere that said you may be having it rebuilt by a professional rebuild center and at a much higher cost.
I had another one rebuilt to compare even though this one is working fine. The only issue is the heat causing tool changes to be not 100% unreliable. We will see how the professional rebuild turns out when I have some time on it. Lots more expensive though.
Where did you find/purchase those bearings where the total price put you in the mid $300's?
ebay store digitalsquarewave
Thanks for the video. By the way, what coolant are you using?
Synergy 735
Makes GOOD Paint stripper as well !
Great to see you making another video!
I have a question about the bearings. The ones removed were sealed… the ones that went back in were open sides. I know you made a Kapon ‘cover’ but, is there a spindle nose seal at all? What stops coolant and chips working their way upto the lower bearing beyond the nose cap? Is it just your Kapon Tape seal?
The close clearance fit nose closure acts as the "seal" to prevent coolant from getting inside. I suppose as long as the spindle is turning it won't allow anything in but I can't really be sure. Every other replacement spindle I've gotten so far has been open bearings so something changed from the initial production units. Mine is a pretty low serial number.
Pressing is the best way
Please make a simple screw jack kind with a metal plate and 3 studs to remove or fix bearings onto the spindle shaft. Dont hammer
Boi your coolant is eating your machine, what coolant are you running?
Yep, I think I'll just start scraping the peeling paint off at this point. The synergy 735 coolant doesn't like Tormachs paint. Other painted parts like the vice and, so far, the chip tray are just fine.
@@vcedge9466 I’m setting up a new 770MX now and will be using 735… im so glad I saw this comment, I may have to take some preventative measures, the enclosure will be easier since I can take it to get powder coated or something. But for the rest of the machine I’m not sure.
Btw, great vid, makes me want to take my brand new spindle apart and check the bearings 😮
Also, I realized the 1100 vinyl sticker on the enclosure seems to hold up just fine. A simple “wrap” on exposed paint of the machine in some areas might do the trick
@@JaimetheNomad That's true the sticker is holding up well. It would be difficult to vinyl wrap all the painted surfaces but at least the large flat areas would likely do better. Mine took about 6 months before starting to show signs of degradation and not everywhere that you'd think, it's kind of strange. A total repaint with something chem resistant would be a lot of work but definitely easier if done right away. Good luck!
@@vcedge9466 thanks!! Yeah I mean I’m not going to completely disassembled it, nor am I going to haul the machine to a professional shop haha so yeah I was thinking the main flat panel areas at least to do something.
Aside from the enclosure, where would you say the worst areas are, for you?
As Stefan says, 'When you buy chinese, you are just buying a kit of parts'.
Wait what was that knife?
Which one?
@@vcedge9466 Sorry I commented before watching all the way through, the first one that you used to cut the cardboard box into a mat
@@jameshartman5574 That's ok. Perfectly reasonable to be excited about that one! Just a little teaser of a new knife I'm working on. You might see more of it soon.😁
Wow.. what happened to the paint?! Looks like there has been paint remover slathered over parts of the machine.
Great video BTW,
Thanks! Yeah, the coolant is slowly breaking it down. Interestingly only on certain parts I'll have to do another video taking a closer look at this.
@@vcedge9466 I’ve been using Blaser 735 in my Syil X7 for very close to 2 years, and zero issue. It’s because it’s powder coated! 735 does not like paint.
@@MrRctintin Yep. My Kurt vise is totally fine.
You should convert to 5 barring and air oil. if you have clean air.
It's obvious nothing's real clean. Did you see all the shit inside that thing.
So Uh, How does the grease stay in with TAPE on one side my friend? Risky...
muy bueno
Ok, after a long series of conversations, referencing the video, Tormach was nice enough to send me a brand new spindle to swap out.
So, John (amazzzzzingly helpful and SUPER nice dude by the way) and I spoke about your video here and even your response to me originally.
I am going to make a video as well, before and after. It's not my motor for sure. I bypassed the spindle reference on Friday night, with John on the phone, disconnected the belt and the motor it quiet as can be. So, my spindle bearings, or something in the spindle hasn't been right since day 1.
I'll be doing my own video this week, and also putting a link in to your video if you don't mind. Do you mind if I use some of your video here, with permission, to reference and link back? I'll make it a privately viewable video at first and send you a link (somehow, not public) and let you give me a thumbs up. I sincerely appreciate you! Cheers!
Looking forward to hearing about it. I hope the new one works for you. Feel free to use whatever parts of the video you need and link it as needed.
@@vcedge9466 Awesome! Thanks Jason.
John at Tormach speaks HIGHLY of you. It's cool. Had a long chat with him on Friday.
I've flipped around a bit honestly, from being critical, due to the issues I've had, to knowing problems I have will be handled.
New spindle arrived in perfect condition. Just opened the crate. forgot to film. haha..
Have a great night! Your knives are just beyond amazing by the way. 4th time I've been back to your website and can't believe the work you do. Especially those bearings. WOW.
Wow! Such an awesome Channel I came over here to check you out, because of your comment over on my channel.
The parts you show at 1:05 , you left tabs on there, but I have so many questions. I am doing something similar, but having a chattering issue with final cutout. Unsure how to contact you, but if you do contract work, or, you'd be willing to work as engineering consult, etc, let me know. My 1100mx is still under warranty, but Tormach has not dealt with my issue at all.
My machine is brand new. The only thing I tend to do during the day, when I can't work on it, is use the lights on the machine for photo booth, lol.
I'm afraid my brand new machine, with this spindle issue right from Tormach, is going to be needing bearing replacement. They've been silent and they've seen my video.
Let me know! I left you a comment on my video as well, but seeing you've got activity on this already , you might be a bit busy. Thanks brother! Appreciate you taking the time to come over to let me know.
No worries, thanks for checking out the channel and I appreciate the offer. I think right now I might be too maxed out with the knife orders to be able to work on other projects. Even doing these videos is tough. It's always very intriguing though so if you'd still like to contact me I can at least take a few minutes to hear what you've got going. Not putting my email here but at www.vcedgeknives.com my contact info can be found there pretty easily.
I rebuilt my spindle with the same bearings, but it never ran as nice as a stock spindle. I ran the rebuilt spindle for about a day, then ordered a new one f4om tormach.
In my case, the rebuild wax an expensive waste of time, especially seeing how inexpensive a tormach spindle is.
Spacers and shaft compete with in 0 micron level then the spindle is running long time
8000RMP grease will be thrown out,,I don't understand how they make spindles like that,,anyone with rotation in their head can see that it won't be there very long
Should be shielded bearings, not sealed. The surface speed is to high for sealed bearings.
they have tested it with 10000 rmp . the result is clearly visible,, spindles should run in an oil bath like on engines,,
Maybe oil vapor is being drawn to the warm bearings.i should probably just be quiet lol
No reason to be quiet at all. You could be on to something, hard to say for sure.
OMG ! and 17:38, you just tightened them together and "gave it a little extra"..... DON NOT run your mill until you redo your spindle. No wonder your bearings are failing ! These bearings are expensive, I use them too, you may have already ruined them....
Thank you but I'm not the one that built the spindles initially and this is my first attempt on this one. I'm certainly no expert but I'm learning and so far all the bearings I have replaced are running just fine. Also see my answer on your other comment for more info about the bearings.
Ah, sorry, you bought the matched pairs with faces ground as a pair. Looks like that particular spindle doesn't preload the pairs together, which is very unusual. Looks like you correctly identified the root cause at he end, theses are put together by workers ( almost slave labor, sadly, ) that don't pack them correctly. Isoflex was the best choice grease you could make.
Make a labret seal
Bearing not impact hammer
Because not good
Assembly with bearing induction
Good explanation, a shame on china made
The paint on the mill is awful, being stripped by presumably coolant, should be a two pack epoxy paint, but looks like a one pack synthetic, shocking for a reputable machine manufacturer. The loose paint flakes will get into all moving parts.
I definitely agree the paint they use is not durable,. Even the rubber trim gaskets they use causes it to break down. They should find out whatever paint the Kurt vice has on it because it's completely fine and it has been in there constantly since day 1.
super cheap and crappy design of these spindles I must say