Get 25% off on Paired premium! Start your 7-day free trial by clicking the link here: www.paired.com/Daniel25 The Hugo story is complex and I feel the need to remind everyone I don’t have research assistants or a degree in journalism. I believe I got everything correct but please check sources for yourself and form your own opinions! The world is messy y’all.
Dude, you don't need a degree in Journalism. You shouldn't hold yourself up to a supposed standard they no longer teach (or at least give more than lip service) in Journo school. Your expression of a desire to be as accurate as you can is enough.
Not many places have a redder flag than China, so it makes sense. The whole thing reeks of censorship of "undesirable ideas" and Hugo should be ASHAMED.
The Red Flag is the Chinese Flag. Maybe after 70 straight years of screwing everyone for their own benefit at every turn, they will handle this with fairness and for the benefit of all? The Hugo people are just stupid (sorry, nuro-divergent).
The worst part of this in my mind is that the author of Nettle and Bone is going through cancer treatment, and this now taints one of the best moments of her career.
a country that has a chokehold over publishing, and is actively seeking to have a chokehold over other countries' publishing should not even be considered for hosting an event like this.
The situation with Xiran Jay Zhao author of Iron Widow is not that they were deemed eligible two years in a row they were nominated for astounding award for the best new writer which is for the best new writer whose first professional work of science fiction or fantasy was published within the two previous calendar years. And they actually were eligible and nominated the previous year, yet SOMEHOW were not in 2022 despite once again having enough votes, which is literally impossible. Personally I find this the worst part of this whole thing, not only are they the most clear cut case of wrongdoing, it was their last chance to win that award, and of all the people excluded they are at the earliest part of their career for which such a reward would matter the most.
@AdoraTsang I didn't say MULAN should be eating tea eggs lmaooo I was just giving examples of what's in a typical Chinese breakfast compared to an American one. Weird thing to cite to say I'm completely ignorant of history. Even so, tea absolutely existed in China by Mulan's era, what are you talking about?
I USED to volunteer at conventions that MacCarty ran. I can tell say from personal experience that Dave is even more arrogant and stuck up in person. I list being blocked by Dave as a badge of honor.
@@najawin8348 No, I found that whole thing disgraceful. But that whole thing was specifically because of and enabled by the Hugo's inability to do anything about people with agendas manipulating them exactly like this
@@najawin8348 And you think it was ok to even be able to get in that position? It's ridiculous and yet another example of the Hugos being shit for over a decade. Their solution isn't to fix it, it's just to ban or ignore whatever it is they don't like while doing nothing to prevent someone else with another agenda to do it again. It's disgraceful.
@@lincolnnoronha4128 I mean, other explanations would be that he's either insane or just otherwise pro-Chinese cencorship and/or against human rights for no monetary gain, and that'd be even more concerning.
As someone who knows a bit about the Hugos and has actually won one, I have a few additions to make. Xiran Jay Zhao was not declared ineligible two years in a row. They were a finalist for the Astounding Award for Best New Writer (officially not a Hugo, but voted upon in the same way and administered by the same team) in 2022. Astounding eligibility lasts for two years after your professional debut publication. Xiran Jay Zhao debuted in 2021, so they should have still been eligible in 2023, only that they were randomly declared ineligible. This is particularly bad for them, because you only get two years of Astounding eligibility. As for why these particular works and people (Babel, Xiran Jay Zhao, Paul Weimer, an episode of The Sandman and possibly also a Chinese novelette, which should have been eligible) were delcared ineligible, none of the theories really explain it. It can't be purely about Chinese diaspora people, because there were other Chinese diaspora people on the ballot (John Chu, Richard Man, Silja Hong, Alyssa Wynans, possibly others I have forgotten). Nor can it be purely about works by or featuring LGBTQ+ people, because there were works by and about LGBTQ+ people on the ballot, e.g. John Chu's novelette. The disqualifications seem very random. Another, even worse issue is that the numbers look extremely wonky. In some categories, votes add up to more than 100%, there is a massive drop-off in nominations between the top ranks and the long tail, categories which traditionally get maybe two or three hundred nominations suddenly got eight hundrred and the EPH numbers (algorithm designed to reduce the impact of slate voting) are obviously wrong. Basically, everybody who knows a little bit about how the Hugos work and has some experience with what these numbers normally look like can see that these numbers make no sense. That said, this was one year of either the host country exerting political pressure on the ballot or the Hugo admin self-censoring in anticipation of political pressure or a Hugo admin just throwing works he dislikes of the ballot (we don't know). This doesn't mean that the Hugos per se are damaged. The Hugos are extremely transparent, compared to other genre awards like the Dragons in that we know exactly how many ballots were cast, which finalist got how many nominations, what just missed the ballot, etc... That's also why the issues were noticed at once, because the voting and nomination data is made public. And since we have the voting and nomination data going back many years, we know that these irregularities are something which hasn't happened before (though a Hugo admin unilaterally declared The Silmarillon ineligible for Best Novel in 1973. He never got that job again).. And there will be measures taken to ensure that they never happen again. Also, the next two Worldcons are in Glasgow, Scotland, and Seattle, Washington, so I wouldn't expect any political pressure there. As for why Chengdu won the site selection vote in 2021 in the first place, there were issues with ballots without valid street or e-mail addresses, but there was also genuine fan support from Chinese fans for Chengdu. Many of these Chinese fans are as angry as the western fans now. Another issue was that two bids for Nice in France and Memphis, Tennessee, were forced to drop out and Winnipeg, Canada, submitted a bid at the last second and ran a lacklustre campaign that was basically, "Well, at least we're not Chengdu", which wasn't enough.
As someone with some Chinese heritage but a very, very low opinion of the CCP, Chengdu is a great choice of host location and I really don't see any foul play there. Winnipeg's attempt was embarrassing, and borderline racist.
Xiran is an outspoken critic of the ccp and the Uigur genocide. The ccp are not fans of that. Plus their book was a reimagining of Wu Zetian who is a contentious person in Chinese history.
Thank you for the explanation & best wishes to you in your career, in general! That's very cool you've won a Hugo for your own work!! I hope you remind yourself of it randomly 😊 😊 😊.
It’s so discouraging that award ceremonies and sport competitions keep being given to countries that do not uphold basic human rights. The only people surprised by outcomes like this are the commitees who chose the location.
7:40 - He says that he never met the government in any "official" capacity; he does NOT say that he never met the government, in fact, he admits that he *did* meet the government....and that the government controlled their means of transportation. Does he really think anyone believes that being strong-armed by a corrupt government would happen _officially_ ??? He's not being 'particular' about his answer, he's being vague A.F.-has anybody asked him to cite the rules/constitution or whatever that were violated? (Is he still in China, being held hostage, currently?)
I will second the gratitude towards Felix Ortiz. He did the cover for my debut book, and it was a great experience. He was incredibly patient in working with a newbie author publishing for the first time, walked me through every step of the process and taught me how to convey the information he needed to make a fantastic cover. He’s the man!
Glad to hear he's such a great guy to work with! If you don't mind sharing, what were your biggest takeaways from what you learned from him? I'm in a similar situation now, but planning on going with another artist whose style I feel more accurately represents the tone of the novel.
@@calebmauer1751 dude, there was just a panel of US governors that went to Wuhan. THE Wuhan. Did you mean to tell me you forgot that Newsome stuffed the homeless in the closet so Xi would have a nice time in California?
@@renaissancenovice7202 This comment is the perfect snapshot of what happens when people stuck in an echo chamber come out into public. No one likes the Chinese government my guy.
"no one is changing decisions I have made" means that he didn't have to be told, he saw the writing on the wall and decided that the pink chinese money is worth more than his "tegrity". He didn't need coaching, he didn't need to be monitored, like a good little dog, he knew what to do the moment it happened.
Or, perhaps, he just straight up hasn't even been allowed to make any of these decisions at all? (No one would need to 'change his decisions' or whatever, if they were never his decisions in the first place / if they were someone else's decisions handed to him "or else" style.) Do we know where he is physically located currently? Can we be sure it's even literally him using his own accounts anymore?
The way he phrased it also gave him a huge window. He didn't say he made the decisions. He might have allowed it before making any thus not having to change any he made.
White people bought are called white monkeys. And yes he totally dsidnt do anything he specific says, no forther , just convenient he didnt it, totally. Also if we deal with chinese ifluencing faulty data is in any case better than no data, the chinese government would rather give no faulty to get conclusions. It also reeka after the government of fassades and shortcuts. Very CCP. Rip hugo awards i guess, i hope someone does a counter hugo awards with big names supportin it. Also chinese is good at buying human "bots" and making people disapear from the face of earth, shady indeed ther eis no adrewss, using internet to be dystopian moight be the only thing they do lead in technology. Maybe
Re: "Awards are all a joke anyway" - that's the issue, it's obvious that they're just a marketing ploy, but that's what makes them important for authors to win if they want to make (more) money. There doesn't seem to be a solution to this aspect of it at least, banning particular countries from hosting it could be viable, though that in itself would generate a lot of controversy.
They used to be so good. I specifically looked for Hugo and Nebula winners to read because they were always great. That ended somewhere around a decade ago. Hugo's have been a disaster ever since.
@@pedanticperson1149 It has a lot more issues than that. The bigger problem is that authors 'needing' them is an investment of one's self in a hollow crown. Same with the NYT Bestseller List, an industry circle jerk if there ever was one. I'm sorry to sound so black pilled on all of this but I have been well informed on the pathetic self serving nature of this 'industry' for about 30 years. It is all a scam. Read what you want. Promote it to your friends. Encourage more reading. Ignore industry accolades.
Thank you for doing a deeper dive overview that is easy to understand. I have been so interested in this and frustrated by how little information is coming out officially. They hugos keep having these weird scandals and problems and it definitely is delegitimizing them at least to a lot of the readers I know!
Well to distract myself from the hugo nastiness I am very excited to get my hands on the new Malazan editions, its one of my favourite series but IMO none of the current covers are that great, the subterranean press covers are gorgeous but cost a kings ransom per book, so Im really glad its getting new editions that us peasants can afford.
I dislike when someone in a position of "power" uses that power to berate or abuse the person with less or no power. I see it all the time in the way some people treat waitstaff. I think it's cowardly.
Well, we live in a world where your mere existence, not your opinions or beliefs, just your existence is reason enough. When an organiser cancels their entire award ceremony just because the winner is a Palestinian author... I'm looking at you Frankfurt Book Fair.
So, if I'm understanding this correctly..... It's all very informal in terms of how it's run, there's very little oversight & those in charge don't really care. While I realise that winning such an "award" can really help with a writer's career, I think it's also clear that the award itself is nonsense & not a measure of excellence. What they're competing for is a particular type of advertising/promotion. As for undesirable countries becoming host to the awards, if that's something people want to prevent in the future it might be a good idea to have a list of countries that must not be allowed such a privilege. That would require people to take a firm stance against countries like China, so I'm not sure that's a viable approach to take.
Are you okay with glasgow hosting next year though? Because england’s been censoring trans and queer stories for years now. But i don’t see y’all crying about them
@@calebmauer1751 The reason we can tell the 2023 awards were so screwed up is because the Hugos release all voting and nomination statistics every year. It's an incredibly transparent process. When there was attempted manipulation before ( like during the Sad Puppies years), it was really obvious. If there was any "publisher bribing" in the past, we'd already know about it.
Thank you for bringing this controversy to light for those of us who haven't been paying attention. I shared your video because people need to be made aware of stuff like this!
I had read RF Kuang's statement in Instagram, but I was so out of loop that it didn't really make a lot of sense. So thank you for the context, Goblin Lord.
Doesn't this achieve the exact oposite of what they wanted though? for me this just gave me a handy list of books that China hates...so it expanded my TBR significantly.
China care first and foremost about keeping internal order. Americans reading anti-Chinese books won't bother them, side of some theatrical gestures. But they may not want to anti-Chinese (anti-CPR specifically) literature to be openly promoted on their own ground, on convent with lot of Chinese readers.
Worldcon - and other award-granting organizations - need to have sections in their bylaws that prevent them from being hosted in totalitarian countries. Having award decisions made in places where the government can (and likely will) dictate or pressure selection of the winners - directly or indirectly - automatically calls the validity of the awards into question.
Simplest way is put locals in charge of organisation of logistic matter, but keep globalist comitee over awards and program. If China does not like it they can boot Worldcon, but people responsible of merits of convent should not be Chinese citizens I think.
Having the host location vote on the Hugo award and not the organization that actually is reslobsible for the award seems like an obvious problem with an obvious solution: don't do that.
Hopefully all the people who were snubbed will get a bunch of sales from everyone that thinks this is BS. Like the "banned" books have gotten after they were "banned". That would be the best way to support those authors that should have been nominated.
This isn’t the solution, in either case. RF Kuang is very popular, if the many BookTubers, including Daniel, featuring her, are any indication, so more sales won’t fix the problem, when it’s likely an internal issue with the awards themselves that needs to be fixed on *their* end. And *banned* books (no quotes needed, because they are indeed being banned) are an issue of access, and them still being available for people with disposable income to buy doesn’t help the people with limited income (especially kids) in impacted counties/cities/states who rely on their libraries to access them.
@@cakt1991 exactly. When George RR Martin sided with the Hugos during the Sad Puppy controversy, he told the Sad Puppy movement to just make their own award. No. All the Hugos had to do was be fair.
I'm just speculating here, but Babel is (subtly) LGBT themed (as you said) and it's about the Century of Humiliation*, which is a very touchy historical subject in China. Also there's a lot of adversity towards Ethnic Chinese who aren't part of the Chinese state, especially when they are also Sinologists, like ms Kuang. It's just a perfect storm of factors that all individually could get a book banned in China (or otherwise meddled with), when that's all in one work? Boy am I not surprised. This is the problem with idealist organisations like this, it's all fun and games when you're touring the "free world" (some terms and conditions may apply) but when you come up against regimes like this that will just not "play ball" your openness becomes a fatal flaw. * for those unaware this is the Chinese terminology for the disastrous collapse of the Manchu, not foreign chauvinism as it might appear without context.
Yeah, I think their credibility died in my eyes when they gave an award for a misinformation-laden hit piece on another author without actually fact checking it first to see if it was accurate.
How about the Noah Ward and the wooden assholes a few years back because they didn't like some of the books and people who got nominated because of wrongthink. They are nothing more than a bunch of hypocrites. They are okay when they are the ones doing it to others, but when it happens to them, it is wrong and should be condemned.
The fact that such a country was considered eligible for hosting the event would be already enought to put any further decisions of eligibility into doubt, even if they had given a crap about a cover story worth something (which they apparently didn't).
I can’t understand why they would want to host any of these things. What is the ultimate goal of participating in global events if the country is so antagonistic toward the globe?
@BlackXSunlight they want to do things that they can point at and go "look, we're a normal country doing normal country things!" when people try to call them out
@@TheGallantDrake Why do they care about being called out? There have been zero consequences for any of these national powers committing atrocities just because it’s being talked about. It’s literally a dictatorship, it’s… I just don’t get it.
The Hugos are the visible face of literary sf to the world. To that end it's useful to establishments who want to gild their public image around the world. We seem to be seeing it with the CCP this year but we also had it with Raytheon the other year. I don't know much about worldcon rules but I do know the Hugos are being eroded by bad political and corporate actors and that something has to be done.
God i hope ther are enough big names to do a counter hugo award and do manage that. If any good of the scandal might be enough big names supporting a new award in its stead and sabotage the hugo mostly
They became irrelevant 20 years ago when they embraced identity politics. They're now fully cancel culture nonsense. I can't believe the constant stream of controversies around them hasn't shut them down yet.
@@althesilly Not just that but, any nation that loves to take part in destabilizing nations to then peddle weapons too for a tidy profit should be shunned as nations looking to host the awards. Hell you’ll not have many nations left 🤣 especially in the west.
It really doesn't matter at this point, if they can't explain explicitly why the people were declared 'ineligible', then they're eligible, and if they are eligible and passed over for their award, then the awards are meaningless, decided by backroom individuals. And Dave needs to be honest or he needs to be silent. Being unprofessional because people demand answers that he's unable or unwilling to give further embeds suspicion in the detractors and harms the organization. Mind you, I would decline an award because I refuse to go to China. Weed Free is not for me.
Oh boy, if you love fungalpunk then without a doubt Jeff Vandermeer is its daddy! The Ambergis trilogy is a wildly inventive achievement of speculative historiography teeming with fungal conspiracy and wonderful characters! Three books in three incredibly different styles set in one of the greatest cities of SF/F's long history. Can't recommend City of Saints and Madmen enough. Vandermeer has an imagination few can match, and his writing is about as skilled and versatile as possible! The second book is an uber meta memoir found in the world, and the third is a hard-boiled noir novel.
@@brian0057 I actually agree! It's not my term, I just used it in the context of the video. But it actually could be a subgenre with intellectual rigour behind it, which Vandermeer certainly has. He's spoken on the theory of nature and climate and "hyperobjects" in his work and, if you take together his Southern Reach and Ambergris and Borne novels, you have a compelling subgenre in the making, with more rigour than some cyberpunk or steampunk works. In genre, flavour ≠ structure ≠ ideological backbone. Many use flavour trappings without understanding the DNA of the genre. Biopunk, or whatever future readers may call it, has been in development for a while (see Atwood's Oryx and Crake) but won't exist unless thematically discussed, which can only happen in retrospect.
I mean yeah Hugo awards have been a joke for a while but this one takes the cake. Also by the way they don't just remove books from consideration based on the local politics of the host, but they also push books higher on the list (ie give awards) based on that.
What I'm hearing is that we needed central oversight and because they avoided it for so long, now the whole award is in jeopardy of losing credibility. :/ Shocker.
Thank you for putting this together. I was only getting bits and pieces of what was going on with the Hugos. Wanted to know more but just didn't have the energy. Just one per reason for me to support those ladies. Much love!
I hope whoever does next years just doubles the categories and also gives individual awards for the previous year. If there's no oversight, then f*** it. Overwrite them.
Sigh. Having been a (somewhat unwilling) president of a (tiny, community) non-profit, I suggest people get involved in communities who have the energy/time will if care about that community/non-profit, as other grifters/those that will act horribly and want power ..will. It's a bit of a toxic cycle -- dealing with power hunger/crappy folk is exhausting, and takes so much energy and can be literally traumatizing .... But if we want good community/groups, we need to be part of the change.
I just wanted to say thanks for getting me back into reading again. I missed reading a lot. I bought both of your books plus have neon ghost coming soon and can't wait to read it. So once again thank you.
Sounds like the Hugo Awards just managed to become completely irrelevant, and the only solution to tidy things would now be for all nominated authors to simply decline their nominations until it gets sorted out. Ideally, the whole Hugo Awards should be scrapped and an entirely new award should replace it where they make sure this cannot happen.
I hope they hire a qualified HEMA instructor to choreograph all the sword fights. We watch the immortals and we go: and I stab you in the kidney and take your head. They do the spinny bs way too often for people who supposedly trained when swords were a standard weapon. I hope the remake works on that.
I haven't read anything by Kuang yet though she has been on my radar for a while. I think it's time to change that, going to pickup something of hers now.
People need to stop giving credibility and attention to award shows, in any media. As soon as they grow beyond being a small, cheap, fan-run event, they open themselves up to being bought out or politically bossed around like this for the sake of special interests - and because the award show has been granted so much attention and legitimacy before this, it’s guaranteed to be worth it for them. So please, just stop the award shows altogether.
The Hugo Awards have an official site with an FAQ section. Q: "If something is copyrighted in one year and published in another, when is it eligible?" A: "When a publication date (usually on the publication information of a book) or a cover date is different from a work’s copyright date, the publication or cover date applies. For example, if a work has a copyright date in 2010 but a publication date of 2011, it it eligible for the 2012 Hugo Awards. If there is no publication or cover date, the copyright date applies."
I knew nothing about this until I saw this video. After the technical explanation of how the Hugo award works, what I find amazing is that is an award with any prestige at all.
First Mate: Captain, I found a message in a bottle! Captain: What does it say laddie? First Mate: It says the Fantasy news must flow.....to the Grand Line!
I feel it is time to write a book called "Fuck Chengdu" This scandal is both incredibly unfortunate and incredibly foreseeable for the decision to let WorldCon be held in an authoritarian country with no respect for freedom of speech. Another black mark against the Hugos.
I bought the same chair 10 years ago after a cheap chair from staples literally destroyed my back (I have MRI's to prove it). Awesome chair. Complete 180 from the staples chair. I now sit in it for relief.
The anti-LGBT thing doesn't make sense to me. I'm not saying it's wrong, it's just one of the books that did make the list was "Nona the Ninth." Lesbian necromancers in space. Something I'm missing here?
Soeaking of Vampire and movies, I'm very much looking forward to Robert Eggers (The Lighthouse, The Witch) upcoming movie set for December this year, "Nosferatu". Gimme more Vampires 🧛♂️!
Thank you so much for talking about this. I have read the nominees for the last 5 years and seen the issues as they have happened. I will be reading the nebula awards instead this year. Mr Philips blog is an excellent place to find recommendations still too!
I love your fantasy news videos, I haven't heard anything of the scandal yet and wouldn't without your channel! so thank you for covering news big and small, keep it up and have a nice day!
If there is no company is in control can anyone just hold an event and call it "world con"? I feel like without someone protecting the "I.P." someone could just host a makeup event.
As I understand it 'Worldcon' and 'Hugo Awards' are trademarked, with the rights to the trademarks being passed on annually to the following years organising committee.
Oh wow, I didn't know much about how the Hugo awards worked going in, but I'm genuinely surprised I was able to lose pretty much all respect for them in about 5 minutes
what a complex situation that seems to have turned into an absolute crap show. Thanks for the breakdown. Good video, as always. Wonder how this will change things in the future. Clearly something is not working right.
As always, thank you for your clear rundown. It's incredibly disgraceful and frustrating that such a prized event in literature is revealed to be just as unstable and corrupt as we hoped it wouldn't be. Dave seems like a fkn prick as well, no respect or empathy for the people being affected by this. I wouldn't be remotely surprised if Dave or other powers are why those books and authors were disqualified for NO valid reason.
I do hope that we can find a new organization to replace this one. For the most prestigious award in its field, there should be better by-laws. Since it's a sack of poo, I would say it's now out-dated and needs to be replaced.
And this has been floated around for decades. BUT as until recently the USA had a stranglehold on the Worldcons, (East Coast, West Coast, Central, Foreign was the mantra for nearly 50 years (my memory may have mixed up which order the 3 US regions went in but you get the drift), and the dozen or so big city US SF groups that were capable of organising a WorldCon in the US had a level of infighting that made international politics look benign in comparison, not to mention the intervention of several large publishers that had to be beaten off with sticks, and the 'helpful' intervention of authors who could still remember the days in the early fifties when WorldCons had more authors present than fans, although there wasn't much of a distinction back then. Well every attempt, and there have been many, has crashed in flames. If you want to put your money where your mouth is, and put forward a serious attempt to solve the problem, I sincerely wish you luck. Let us know what you want putting on your headstone. It is very easy to say the current system needs replacing. I 100% agree. But who is going to do the hard work with the certainty that before the end they will be the most hated person in SF Fandom.
Sad Puppies already proved Hugos were super gameable, and the third round of that drama also already proved that organizers could pull some insanely suspicious behavior when they didn't like what the participating public nominated. Ever since, it's been as important an award in my eyes as every other, which is to say that it might as well just be a marketing gimmick. I know I should care about this scandal, but like, even if a burning turd stinks, it's still a turd when you put the fire out.
@@ManSeekingMeaning Google the Sad Puppies (in relation to the Hugo awards.) It was quite a drama in the mid 10s. I remember this mostly because of GRRMartin's constant frustration with them on his Not-a-blog, back when there was still hope ASOIAF would finish. They're not shadowboxing here, there was a real rotten right wing campaign within Hugo voting for a while.
To be fair, I have no doubt that at least part of the reason they refused to reject the address-less ballots from China is because people wanted to stick it to all the Puppy-adjacent folks who were up in arms about it at the time. It just goes to show how everything goes to shit when we focus too much on tribal politics over the matter at hand.
@@Flynnicuspromoted by dodgy promotion of books of authors and subjects and not if they was any good, this is the problem when people pick one issue but ignore the original
this is the first i've ever heard of such a large, and impactful, company (or whatever) to not have a board ... it's odd to me and it's clearly not working
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The Hugo story is complex and I feel the need to remind everyone I don’t have research assistants or a degree in journalism. I believe I got everything correct but please check sources for yourself and form your own opinions! The world is messy y’all.
Dude, you don't need a degree in Journalism. You shouldn't hold yourself up to a supposed standard they no longer teach (or at least give more than lip service) in Journo school. Your expression of a desire to be as accurate as you can is enough.
Anytime there is a “disqualifies because I said so and no I’m not gonna explain why” it is always the most crimson of red flags.
May as well just say, you want to know why you are banned? Just read the rules.
Not many places have a redder flag than China, so it makes sense. The whole thing reeks of censorship of "undesirable ideas" and Hugo should be ASHAMED.
@@xoso599 Are the rules even readily available to be read?
you mean like the chinese one?
The Red Flag is the Chinese Flag. Maybe after 70 straight years of screwing everyone for their own benefit at every turn, they will handle this with fairness and for the benefit of all? The Hugo people are just stupid (sorry, nuro-divergent).
The worst part of this in my mind is that the author of Nettle and Bone is going through cancer treatment, and this now taints one of the best moments of her career.
Wait what? 😭 I didn't know that, I love her!
Jesus Christ
Oof, that sucks. I knew about Martha Wells, but not about Ursula Vernon.
Which absolutely sucks, I adore Ursula Vernon 😢
I personally believe Nettle and Bone deserved its win and this scandal doesn't impact its merit as an amazing fantasy novel, but Babel deserved a nom
a country that has a chokehold over publishing, and is actively seeking to have a chokehold over other countries' publishing should not even be considered for hosting an event like this.
Well said!
100%
China is always doing its best to impose their censorship wherever they can, books, hollywood, business...
It's extremely dangerous and must be fought
So you're saying we SHOULDN'T host the next one in North Korea?
Before I watched the video, I legitimately thought you were talking about the US/Amazon!
The situation with Xiran Jay Zhao author of Iron Widow is not that they were deemed eligible two years in a row they were nominated for astounding award for the best new writer which is for the best new writer whose first professional work of science fiction or fantasy was published within the two previous calendar years. And they actually were eligible and nominated the previous year, yet SOMEHOW were not in 2022 despite once again having enough votes, which is literally impossible. Personally I find this the worst part of this whole thing, not only are they the most clear cut case of wrongdoing, it was their last chance to win that award, and of all the people excluded they are at the earliest part of their career for which such a reward would matter the most.
damn that's sad or sorry it happened to you. not going to read all that but I hope you're ok.
@@nathangrimberg5989 Dude that's a really weird reply, to a comment about Hugo awards controversy.
@AdoraTsang I didn't say MULAN should be eating tea eggs lmaooo I was just giving examples of what's in a typical Chinese breakfast compared to an American one. Weird thing to cite to say I'm completely ignorant of history. Even so, tea absolutely existed in China by Mulan's era, what are you talking about?
@AdoraTsang thats not really relevant and you definitely misunderstood her video (mulan review video)
I USED to volunteer at conventions that MacCarty ran. I can tell say from personal experience that Dave is even more arrogant and stuck up in person. I list being blocked by Dave as a badge of honor.
Thank you so much for explaining the Hugo Awards drama. I only saw R F Kuang's post and was a bit lost. Their reputation is indeed in the gutter...
Their reputation died around a decade ago. This is just the latest scandal for an organization that should have ended long ago.
@@wingracer1614 Sorry, are you defending the _puppies?_ That's the big Hugo drama from a decade ago.
@@najawin8348 No, I found that whole thing disgraceful. But that whole thing was specifically because of and enabled by the Hugo's inability to do anything about people with agendas manipulating them exactly like this
@@wingracer1614 But they declined to give out awards one year for precisely that reason.
@@najawin8348 And you think it was ok to even be able to get in that position? It's ridiculous and yet another example of the Hugos being shit for over a decade. Their solution isn't to fix it, it's just to ban or ignore whatever it is they don't like while doing nothing to prevent someone else with another agenda to do it again. It's disgraceful.
I was reading about this yesterday... well, leave it to awards programs to be a joke.
to me its obvious he got a boatload of money from the chinese.
@@lincolnnoronha4128 I mean, other explanations would be that he's either insane or just otherwise pro-Chinese cencorship and/or against human rights for no monetary gain, and that'd be even more concerning.
A Hugo award is only as good as where and who you got it from .
@@pRahvi0yeahhh. but thats reeeaaally unlikely. More likely: money.
As someone who knows a bit about the Hugos and has actually won one, I have a few additions to make.
Xiran Jay Zhao was not declared ineligible two years in a row. They were a finalist for the Astounding Award for Best New Writer (officially not a Hugo, but voted upon in the same way and administered by the same team) in 2022. Astounding eligibility lasts for two years after your professional debut publication. Xiran Jay Zhao debuted in 2021, so they should have still been eligible in 2023, only that they were randomly declared ineligible. This is particularly bad for them, because you only get two years of Astounding eligibility.
As for why these particular works and people (Babel, Xiran Jay Zhao, Paul Weimer, an episode of The Sandman and possibly also a Chinese novelette, which should have been eligible) were delcared ineligible, none of the theories really explain it. It can't be purely about Chinese diaspora people, because there were other Chinese diaspora people on the ballot (John Chu, Richard Man, Silja Hong, Alyssa Wynans, possibly others I have forgotten). Nor can it be purely about works by or featuring LGBTQ+ people, because there were works by and about LGBTQ+ people on the ballot, e.g. John Chu's novelette. The disqualifications seem very random.
Another, even worse issue is that the numbers look extremely wonky. In some categories, votes add up to more than 100%, there is a massive drop-off in nominations between the top ranks and the long tail, categories which traditionally get maybe two or three hundred nominations suddenly got eight hundrred and the EPH numbers (algorithm designed to reduce the impact of slate voting) are obviously wrong. Basically, everybody who knows a little bit about how the Hugos work and has some experience with what these numbers normally look like can see that these numbers make no sense.
That said, this was one year of either the host country exerting political pressure on the ballot or the Hugo admin self-censoring in anticipation of political pressure or a Hugo admin just throwing works he dislikes of the ballot (we don't know). This doesn't mean that the Hugos per se are damaged. The Hugos are extremely transparent, compared to other genre awards like the Dragons in that we know exactly how many ballots were cast, which finalist got how many nominations, what just missed the ballot, etc... That's also why the issues were noticed at once, because the voting and nomination data is made public. And since we have the voting and nomination data going back many years, we know that these irregularities are something which hasn't happened before (though a Hugo admin unilaterally declared The Silmarillon ineligible for Best Novel in 1973. He never got that job again).. And there will be measures taken to ensure that they never happen again.
Also, the next two Worldcons are in Glasgow, Scotland, and Seattle, Washington, so I wouldn't expect any political pressure there.
As for why Chengdu won the site selection vote in 2021 in the first place, there were issues with ballots without valid street or e-mail addresses, but there was also genuine fan support from Chinese fans for Chengdu. Many of these Chinese fans are as angry as the western fans now. Another issue was that two bids for Nice in France and Memphis, Tennessee, were forced to drop out and Winnipeg, Canada, submitted a bid at the last second and ran a lacklustre campaign that was basically, "Well, at least we're not Chengdu", which wasn't enough.
*They
@@Hawkatana Sorry. Just corrected it.
As someone with some Chinese heritage but a very, very low opinion of the CCP, Chengdu is a great choice of host location and I really don't see any foul play there. Winnipeg's attempt was embarrassing, and borderline racist.
Xiran is an outspoken critic of the ccp and the Uigur genocide. The ccp are not fans of that. Plus their book was a reimagining of Wu Zetian who is a contentious person in Chinese history.
Thank you for the explanation & best wishes to you in your career, in general! That's very cool you've won a Hugo for your own work!! I hope you remind yourself of it randomly 😊 😊 😊.
It’s so discouraging that award ceremonies and sport competitions keep being given to countries that do not uphold basic human rights. The only people surprised by outcomes like this are the commitees who chose the location.
7:40 - He says that he never met the government in any "official" capacity; he does NOT say that he never met the government, in fact, he admits that he *did* meet the government....and that the government controlled their means of transportation. Does he really think anyone believes that being strong-armed by a corrupt government would happen _officially_ ???
He's not being 'particular' about his answer, he's being vague A.F.-has anybody asked him to cite the rules/constitution or whatever that were violated?
(Is he still in China, being held hostage, currently?)
No no, i only met a puppet organisation and x puppet company happened to support me financial, nothing shady :P
"has anybody asked him to cite the rules/constitution or whatever that were violated?" Yes. He ignored them.
No, he actively came back home to Illinois, where he lives, loaded down with gifts, gushing over his experiences and his hosts. Not suspicious at all.
thanks for breaking this down so comprehensively, with receipts. heard about the controversy, but always appreciate your researched take.
I will second the gratitude towards Felix Ortiz. He did the cover for my debut book, and it was a great experience. He was incredibly patient in working with a newbie author publishing for the first time, walked me through every step of the process and taught me how to convey the information he needed to make a fantastic cover. He’s the man!
Glad to hear he's such a great guy to work with!
If you don't mind sharing, what were your biggest takeaways from what you learned from him? I'm in a similar situation now, but planning on going with another artist whose style I feel more accurately represents the tone of the novel.
I'm shocked that people are shocked about a totalitarian state acting like a totalitarian state.
Alot of normies are about to get Redpilled about the CCP.
@@renaissancenovice7202 Oh stop being dramatic, most people have a negative view of the Chinese government, not just your little incel in group.
@@calebmauer1751 dude, there was just a panel of US governors that went to Wuhan. THE Wuhan. Did you mean to tell me you forgot that Newsome stuffed the homeless in the closet so Xi would have a nice time in California?
@@renaissancenovice7202 This comment is the perfect snapshot of what happens when people stuck in an echo chamber come out into public. No one likes the Chinese government my guy.
@@Flux_7_7_7_7 other than I guess, the government of Canada, California, Georgia, Nikki Haley and so on.
If I was an author nominated for the Hugo award this year, I would just withdraw. It would be so embarrassing to win.
"no one is changing decisions I have made" means that he didn't have to be told, he saw the writing on the wall and decided that the pink chinese money is worth more than his "tegrity". He didn't need coaching, he didn't need to be monitored, like a good little dog, he knew what to do the moment it happened.
Or, perhaps, he just straight up hasn't even been allowed to make any of these decisions at all? (No one would need to 'change his decisions' or whatever, if they were never his decisions in the first place / if they were someone else's decisions handed to him "or else" style.) Do we know where he is physically located currently? Can we be sure it's even literally him using his own accounts anymore?
"decisions I have made" he made decisions@@jaginaiaelectrizs6341
The way he phrased it also gave him a huge window. He didn't say he made the decisions. He might have allowed it before making any thus not having to change any he made.
White people bought are called white monkeys. And yes he totally dsidnt do anything he specific says, no forther , just convenient he didnt it, totally.
Also if we deal with chinese ifluencing faulty data is in any case better than no data, the chinese government would rather give no faulty to get conclusions. It also reeka after the government of fassades and shortcuts. Very CCP.
Rip hugo awards i guess, i hope someone does a counter hugo awards with big names supportin it.
Also chinese is good at buying human "bots" and making people disapear from the face of earth, shady indeed ther eis no adrewss, using internet to be dystopian moight be the only thing they do lead in technology. Maybe
turns out you were completely right lol
LOL the Hugo Awards have been a dumpster fire for a LOOOOONG time.
'Awards' are all a joke anyway.
Amen
Re: "Awards are all a joke anyway" - that's the issue, it's obvious that they're just a marketing ploy, but that's what makes them important for authors to win if they want to make (more) money. There doesn't seem to be a solution to this aspect of it at least, banning particular countries from hosting it could be viable, though that in itself would generate a lot of controversy.
They used to be so good. I specifically looked for Hugo and Nebula winners to read because they were always great. That ended somewhere around a decade ago. Hugo's have been a disaster ever since.
@@pedanticperson1149 It has a lot more issues than that.
The bigger problem is that authors 'needing' them is an investment of one's self in a hollow crown. Same with the NYT Bestseller List, an industry circle jerk if there ever was one.
I'm sorry to sound so black pilled on all of this but I have been well informed on the pathetic self serving nature of this 'industry' for about 30 years. It is all a scam.
Read what you want. Promote it to your friends. Encourage more reading. Ignore industry accolades.
@@wingracer1614 It's been 20 years, just more obvious in the last 10.
That mic drop from Rebecca Kuang is just *chef’s kiss*.
Another Hugo Awards controversy? What a surprise.
Learning that "fungalpunk" is a genre has just made my year. Definitely what I needed to hear after the Hugo Awards continuing to be a dumpster fire.
A Huge dumpster fire INdeed 😅😓😓😡😡
Thank you for doing a deeper dive overview that is easy to understand. I have been so interested in this and frustrated by how little information is coming out officially. They hugos keep having these weird scandals and problems and it definitely is delegitimizing them at least to a lot of the readers I know!
Well to distract myself from the hugo nastiness I am very excited to get my hands on the new Malazan editions, its one of my favourite series but IMO none of the current covers are that great, the subterranean press covers are gorgeous but cost a kings ransom per book, so Im really glad its getting new editions that us peasants can afford.
Tragic. "Hugo Award Winning" was once a reliable stamp of quality.
I dislike when someone in a position of "power" uses that power to berate or abuse the person with less or no power. I see it all the time in the way some people treat waitstaff. I think it's cowardly.
Well, we live in a world where your mere existence, not your opinions or beliefs, just your existence is reason enough. When an organiser cancels their entire award ceremony just because the winner is a Palestinian author... I'm looking at you Frankfurt Book Fair.
Amen.
Wait what?! When did that happen? What? Why?
I’m so annoyed too bc it’s looking like the 2027 hugos will be in israel. And like… god
I've got that book on my to buy list.
Wait, I missed that! Which Palestinian author?? I have to look them up now.
I think it’s becoming apparent that the Hugo awards are less relevant. This isn’t their first big scandal and won’t be their last.
They were never relevant
So, if I'm understanding this correctly..... It's all very informal in terms of how it's run, there's very little oversight & those in charge don't really care. While I realise that winning such an "award" can really help with a writer's career, I think it's also clear that the award itself is nonsense & not a measure of excellence. What they're competing for is a particular type of advertising/promotion.
As for undesirable countries becoming host to the awards, if that's something people want to prevent in the future it might be a good idea to have a list of countries that must not be allowed such a privilege. That would require people to take a firm stance against countries like China, so I'm not sure that's a viable approach to take.
or add something about human rights having being ther to a degree.
Yeah it does explain how some books have won Hugo awards in the past, when they should have been laughed out of the room.
@@Gronmin Yeah, I wonder if there's been some publisher bribing in the past.
Are you okay with glasgow hosting next year though? Because england’s been censoring trans and queer stories for years now. But i don’t see y’all crying about them
@@calebmauer1751 The reason we can tell the 2023 awards were so screwed up is because the Hugos release all voting and nomination statistics every year. It's an incredibly transparent process. When there was attempted manipulation before ( like during the Sad Puppies years), it was really obvious. If there was any "publisher bribing" in the past, we'd already know about it.
THANK YOU Daniel, for featuring my book in this video! Can’t wait for you to get your hands on Mushroom Blues.
Thank you for bringing this controversy to light for those of us who haven't been paying attention. I shared your video because people need to be made aware of stuff like this!
I had read RF Kuang's statement in Instagram, but I was so out of loop that it didn't really make a lot of sense. So thank you for the context, Goblin Lord.
As a Boomer the Hugo's and Eisner
s and other awards jumped the shark decades ago.
In regard to the Hugo awards, the Sad puppies tried to warn people that the system is easily abused.
And nobody listened then...
Doesn't this achieve the exact oposite of what they wanted though? for me this just gave me a handy list of books that China hates...so it expanded my TBR significantly.
Authoritarians tell themselves the Striesand Effect doesn't exist
most regular customers won't know anything about this controversy. They see "won award" on the cover and buy it.
China care first and foremost about keeping internal order.
Americans reading anti-Chinese books won't bother them, side of some theatrical gestures.
But they may not want to anti-Chinese (anti-CPR specifically) literature to be openly promoted on their own ground, on convent with lot of Chinese readers.
Worldcon - and other award-granting organizations - need to have sections in their bylaws that prevent them from being hosted in totalitarian countries. Having award decisions made in places where the government can (and likely will) dictate or pressure selection of the winners - directly or indirectly - automatically calls the validity of the awards into question.
Simplest way is put locals in charge of organisation of logistic matter, but keep globalist comitee over awards and program. If China does not like it they can boot Worldcon, but people responsible of merits of convent should not be Chinese citizens I think.
Having the host location vote on the Hugo award and not the organization that actually is reslobsible for the award seems like an obvious problem with an obvious solution: don't do that.
If the Hugos were hosted in Canada, everyone would get complimentary maple syrup.
Hopefully all the people who were snubbed will get a bunch of sales from everyone that thinks this is BS. Like the "banned" books have gotten after they were "banned". That would be the best way to support those authors that should have been nominated.
I hope ther are enough big authors that they can organize their own award out of protest! That sounds like a moment it would maybe be possible.
Ngl I originally wasn’t very interested in them but I want to read them now bc this is frustrating
Funny that these are the same sanctimonious jerks that cry about how bad banning books are
This isn’t the solution, in either case. RF Kuang is very popular, if the many BookTubers, including Daniel, featuring her, are any indication, so more sales won’t fix the problem, when it’s likely an internal issue with the awards themselves that needs to be fixed on *their* end. And *banned* books (no quotes needed, because they are indeed being banned) are an issue of access, and them still being available for people with disposable income to buy doesn’t help the people with limited income (especially kids) in impacted counties/cities/states who rely on their libraries to access them.
@@cakt1991 exactly. When George RR Martin sided with the Hugos during the Sad Puppy controversy, he told the Sad Puppy movement to just make their own award. No. All the Hugos had to do was be fair.
I'm just speculating here, but Babel is (subtly) LGBT themed (as you said) and it's about the Century of Humiliation*, which is a very touchy historical subject in China. Also there's a lot of adversity towards Ethnic Chinese who aren't part of the Chinese state, especially when they are also Sinologists, like ms Kuang. It's just a perfect storm of factors that all individually could get a book banned in China (or otherwise meddled with), when that's all in one work? Boy am I not surprised.
This is the problem with idealist organisations like this, it's all fun and games when you're touring the "free world" (some terms and conditions may apply) but when you come up against regimes like this that will just not "play ball" your openness becomes a fatal flaw.
* for those unaware this is the Chinese terminology for the disastrous collapse of the Manchu, not foreign chauvinism as it might appear without context.
To be fair, if you've followed the Hugos for a while...they didn't have much reputation to be flushed anyway.
Yeah, I think their credibility died in my eyes when they gave an award for a misinformation-laden hit piece on another author without actually fact checking it first to see if it was accurate.
How about the Noah Ward and the wooden assholes a few years back because they didn't like some of the books and people who got nominated because of wrongthink. They are nothing more than a bunch of hypocrites. They are okay when they are the ones doing it to others, but when it happens to them, it is wrong and should be condemned.
The fact that a repressive dictatorship was chosen to hold the event should sadly lead to the following events not being a surprise.
Right, look what happened when Russia hosted the Olympics, and pulling off a cheating scandal there took a lot more work.
The fact that such a country was considered eligible for hosting the event would be already enought to put any further decisions of eligibility into doubt, even if they had given a crap about a cover story worth something (which they apparently didn't).
I can’t understand why they would want to host any of these things. What is the ultimate goal of participating in global events if the country is so antagonistic toward the globe?
@BlackXSunlight they want to do things that they can point at and go "look, we're a normal country doing normal country things!" when people try to call them out
@@TheGallantDrake Why do they care about being called out? There have been zero consequences for any of these national powers committing atrocities just because it’s being talked about. It’s literally a dictatorship, it’s… I just don’t get it.
The weird lovecraftian way the Hugos works is why I have never cared about them. What a bizzare process on every level.
And I thought the Oscars had problems. The way this whole thing is run is crazy.
The Hugos are the visible face of literary sf to the world. To that end it's useful to establishments who want to gild their public image around the world. We seem to be seeing it with the CCP this year but we also had it with Raytheon the other year. I don't know much about worldcon rules but I do know the Hugos are being eroded by bad political and corporate actors and that something has to be done.
What happened with Raytheon?
God i hope ther are enough big names to do a counter hugo award and do manage that. If any good of the scandal might be enough big names supporting a new award in its stead and sabotage the hugo mostly
@@althesilly They sponsored the Hugo’s the year before. With their weapons sales etc it rightly got a lot of backs up.
They became irrelevant 20 years ago when they embraced identity politics. They're now fully cancel culture nonsense. I can't believe the constant stream of controversies around them hasn't shut them down yet.
@@althesilly Not just that but, any nation that loves to take part in destabilizing nations to then peddle weapons too for a tidy profit should be shunned as nations looking to host the awards. Hell you’ll not have many nations left 🤣 especially in the west.
It really doesn't matter at this point, if they can't explain explicitly why the people were declared 'ineligible', then they're eligible, and if they are eligible and passed over for their award, then the awards are meaningless, decided by backroom individuals. And Dave needs to be honest or he needs to be silent. Being unprofessional because people demand answers that he's unable or unwilling to give further embeds suspicion in the detractors and harms the organization. Mind you, I would decline an award because I refuse to go to China. Weed Free is not for me.
Oh boy, if you love fungalpunk then without a doubt Jeff Vandermeer is its daddy! The Ambergis trilogy is a wildly inventive achievement of speculative historiography teeming with fungal conspiracy and wonderful characters! Three books in three incredibly different styles set in one of the greatest cities of SF/F's long history.
Can't recommend City of Saints and Madmen enough. Vandermeer has an imagination few can match, and his writing is about as skilled and versatile as possible!
The second book is an uber meta memoir found in the world, and the third is a hard-boiled noir novel.
Mofo, fungalpunk is not a thing.
I read his Southern Reach Trilogy and loved it. This sounds like it’s worth a look! Thanks.
If it's not Steam or Cyber, it's not a thing.
It's just sci-fi described by pretentious people.
Stop it with the riduculous "punk" variants.
YES! 100% VanderMeer is my inspiration and one of my all-time favorite authors. Mushroom Blues is basically my love letter to the Ambergris Trilogy.
@@brian0057 I actually agree! It's not my term, I just used it in the context of the video. But it actually could be a subgenre with intellectual rigour behind it, which Vandermeer certainly has. He's spoken on the theory of nature and climate and "hyperobjects" in his work and, if you take together his Southern Reach and Ambergris and Borne novels, you have a compelling subgenre in the making, with more rigour than some cyberpunk or steampunk works. In genre, flavour ≠ structure ≠ ideological backbone. Many use flavour trappings without understanding the DNA of the genre.
Biopunk, or whatever future readers may call it, has been in development for a while (see Atwood's Oryx and Crake) but won't exist unless thematically discussed, which can only happen in retrospect.
I mean yeah Hugo awards have been a joke for a while but this one takes the cake.
Also by the way they don't just remove books from consideration based on the local politics of the host, but they also push books higher on the list (ie give awards) based on that.
The Hugo awards haven't been credible for at least 10 years.
What I'm hearing is that we needed central oversight and because they avoided it for so long, now the whole award is in jeopardy of losing credibility. :/ Shocker.
Disgusting of Hugos. It's supposed to be about celebrating amazing books and they couldn't even do the basics of that.
Xiran was most likely kept out because of her being vocal about the ongoing genocides in China,Palestine,Congo etc.
It’s sad to see that an author with a spine gets put down by everyone including the publisher just because she doesn’t support genocide like wtf.
@@aliturk6692 Jsyk, Xiran uses they/them pronouns.
The Hugos have been worse than useless since the early Two Thousands. May they cease to be a thing soon.
Welp. About to go and buy every disqualified book. Fuck Worldcon and the Hugo awards
Thank you for putting this together. I was only getting bits and pieces of what was going on with the Hugos. Wanted to know more but just didn't have the energy. Just one per reason for me to support those ladies. Much love!
I hope whoever does next years just doubles the categories and also gives individual awards for the previous year. If there's no oversight, then f*** it. Overwrite them.
Yeah and they could call them "______ hindsight" or something and frame it as awarding the books that stick with us even a year later
Sigh.
Having been a (somewhat unwilling) president of a (tiny, community) non-profit, I suggest people get involved in communities who have the energy/time will if care about that community/non-profit, as other grifters/those that will act horribly and want power ..will. It's a bit of a toxic cycle -- dealing with power hunger/crappy folk is exhausting, and takes so much energy and can be literally traumatizing .... But if we want good community/groups, we need to be part of the change.
Who saw the Hugo news coming today? 👀😉
I just wanted to say thanks for getting me back into reading again. I missed reading a lot. I bought both of your books plus have neon ghost coming soon and can't wait to read it. So once again thank you.
Sounds like the Hugo Awards just managed to become completely irrelevant, and the only solution to tidy things would now be for all nominated authors to simply decline their nominations until it gets sorted out. Ideally, the whole Hugo Awards should be scrapped and an entirely new award should replace it where they make sure this cannot happen.
Henry Cavill, John Wick director, AND Highlander? Sign me up!
I hope they hire a qualified HEMA instructor to choreograph all the sword fights. We watch the immortals and we go: and I stab you in the kidney and take your head. They do the spinny bs way too often for people who supposedly trained when swords were a standard weapon. I hope the remake works on that.
I haven't read anything by Kuang yet though she has been on my radar for a while. I think it's time to change that, going to pickup something of hers now.
I've read 3 of her 5 books and they are all amazing.
Don't bother, they are really quite bad.
People need to stop giving credibility and attention to award shows, in any media. As soon as they grow beyond being a small, cheap, fan-run event, they open themselves up to being bought out or politically bossed around like this for the sake of special interests - and because the award show has been granted so much attention and legitimacy before this, it’s guaranteed to be worth it for them.
So please, just stop the award shows altogether.
This happened LAST YEAR, why is it only coming to light now?
Thanks a lot for the kind words, Daniel. Much appreciated!
Sounds like the Hugo Award is now irrelevant and should be ignored going forward.
The Hugo Awards have an official site with an FAQ section. Q: "If something is copyrighted in one year and published in another, when is it eligible?"
A: "When a publication date (usually on the publication information of a book) or a cover date is different from a work’s copyright date, the publication or cover date applies. For example, if a work has a copyright date in 2010 but a publication date of 2011, it it eligible for the 2012 Hugo Awards. If there is no publication or cover date, the copyright date applies."
I knew nothing about this until I saw this video. After the technical explanation of how the Hugo award works, what I find amazing is that is an award with any prestige at all.
Thank you for the detail on what is going on with the Hugo awards! I kept seeing little snips but didn’t have the full context.
😮 I’m disgusted and speechless! That’s just… 😮 😑 horrendous and insanely unfair ( putting it mildly)
It's what you should expect from the Hugos. This is nothing new.
Thank you for explaining the details. I was only getting bits here and there and was confused.
First Mate: Captain, I found a message in a bottle!
Captain: What does it say laddie?
First Mate: It says the Fantasy news must flow.....to the Grand Line!
Years ago, the Hugo Award were shown to be fun by a small group that played favorites. It seems to still be, making them irrelevant.
Another legacy award loses credibility, I'm getting used to it now, but it still hurts
I feel it is time to write a book called "Fuck Chengdu"
This scandal is both incredibly unfortunate and incredibly foreseeable for the decision to let WorldCon be held in an authoritarian country with no respect for freedom of speech. Another black mark against the Hugos.
This needs to be cleaned up or this award is irrelevant!
Those awards have been political for awhile, in one way or another. I view them as meaningless.
Why the heck has xiran jay zhao disqualified? They're amazing!
Hope the authors/publishers highlight the 'ineligible' books as 'Banned By China Read and Find Out Why'
An American guy called Dave banned them.
This has pretty much destroyed their reputation in my eyes
I bought the same chair 10 years ago after a cheap chair from staples literally destroyed my back (I have MRI's to prove it). Awesome chair. Complete 180 from the staples chair. I now sit in it for relief.
"The safest and most secure Hugo's in history! 100% fortified."
The anti-LGBT thing doesn't make sense to me. I'm not saying it's wrong, it's just one of the books that did make the list was "Nona the Ninth." Lesbian necromancers in space. Something I'm missing here?
It was probably more to do with people who criticized the ccp and the Uigur genocide. Also being queer AND Chinese.
Soeaking of Vampire and movies, I'm very much looking forward to Robert Eggers (The Lighthouse, The Witch) upcoming movie set for December this year, "Nosferatu".
Gimme more Vampires 🧛♂️!
The way that the Hugo Awards are divvied out just seems extremely random and useless after all this shit.
Thank you so much for talking about this. I have read the nominees for the last 5 years and seen the issues as they have happened. I will be reading the nebula awards instead this year. Mr Philips blog is an excellent place to find recommendations still too!
I love your fantasy news videos, I haven't heard anything of the scandal yet and wouldn't without your channel! so thank you for covering news big and small, keep it up and have a nice day!
If there is no company is in control can anyone just hold an event and call it "world con"? I feel like without someone protecting the "I.P." someone could just host a makeup event.
As I understand it 'Worldcon' and 'Hugo Awards' are trademarked, with the rights to the trademarks being passed on annually to the following years organising committee.
Oh wow, I didn't know much about how the Hugo awards worked going in, but I'm genuinely surprised I was able to lose pretty much all respect for them in about 5 minutes
I have to wonder if that in the future lists of Hugo winners they''ll start saying that voting for the 2023 awards was not held.
I too was gifted that chair! Super comfy, right? As a guy who has to sit all day for work, it's amazing.
Thanls for covering this. I saw a post on reddit and literally no one was talking about it.
what a complex situation that seems to have turned into an absolute crap show.
Thanks for the breakdown. Good video, as always.
Wonder how this will change things in the future. Clearly something is not working right.
As always, thank you for your clear rundown. It's incredibly disgraceful and frustrating that such a prized event in literature is revealed to be just as unstable and corrupt as we hoped it wouldn't be. Dave seems like a fkn prick as well, no respect or empathy for the people being affected by this. I wouldn't be remotely surprised if Dave or other powers are why those books and authors were disqualified for NO valid reason.
I do hope that we can find a new organization to replace this one. For the most prestigious award in its field, there should be better by-laws. Since it's a sack of poo, I would say it's now out-dated and needs to be replaced.
And this has been floated around for decades. BUT as until recently the USA had a stranglehold on the Worldcons, (East Coast, West Coast, Central, Foreign was the mantra for nearly 50 years (my memory may have mixed up which order the 3 US regions went in but you get the drift), and the dozen or so big city US SF groups that were capable of organising a WorldCon in the US had a level of infighting that made international politics look benign in comparison, not to mention the intervention of several large publishers that had to be beaten off with sticks, and the 'helpful' intervention of authors who could still remember the days in the early fifties when WorldCons had more authors present than fans, although there wasn't much of a distinction back then.
Well every attempt, and there have been many, has crashed in flames.
If you want to put your money where your mouth is, and put forward a serious attempt to solve the problem, I sincerely wish you luck. Let us know what you want putting on your headstone. It is very easy to say the current system needs replacing. I 100% agree. But who is going to do the hard work with the certainty that before the end they will be the most hated person in SF Fandom.
Therefore, the event is completely irrelevant this year...
I've read Babel. If that isn't a Hugo-worthy piece of work, I don't know what is
Sad Puppies already proved Hugos were super gameable, and the third round of that drama also already proved that organizers could pull some insanely suspicious behavior when they didn't like what the participating public nominated. Ever since, it's been as important an award in my eyes as every other, which is to say that it might as well just be a marketing gimmick. I know I should care about this scandal, but like, even if a burning turd stinks, it's still a turd when you put the fire out.
What a trainwreck wth the Hugos. What good is a system that can so easily be manipulated? It renders any award basically meaningless.
Felix Ortiz absolutely rocks. Great inspiration for any SF/F/H writers!
I'm not shocked that, once again, there's Hugo drama. I AM shocked that it's not literary gamergaters like usual.
Being Chinese doesn't make them any different. They're opposed to the same identity politics that has metastasized in the Hugos going on 20 years.
Are the gamergaters in the room with us now?
@@ManSeekingMeaning Google the Sad Puppies (in relation to the Hugo awards.) It was quite a drama in the mid 10s. I remember this mostly because of GRRMartin's constant frustration with them on his Not-a-blog, back when there was still hope ASOIAF would finish. They're not shadowboxing here, there was a real rotten right wing campaign within Hugo voting for a while.
To be fair, I have no doubt that at least part of the reason they refused to reject the address-less ballots from China is because people wanted to stick it to all the Puppy-adjacent folks who were up in arms about it at the time. It just goes to show how everything goes to shit when we focus too much on tribal politics over the matter at hand.
@@Flynnicuspromoted by dodgy promotion of books of authors and subjects and not if they was any good, this is the problem when people pick one issue but ignore the original
this is the first i've ever heard of such a large, and impactful, company (or whatever) to not have a board ... it's odd to me and it's clearly not working