His van gynah represenents a paradigm shift in transportation. He keeps his van gynah in his driveway. Yep, Jason is right, this shit is amusing. Also, you are right and I can’t see how they missed it, the Chrysler minivan redefined the american car in the 90s and early 00s.
The Prius actually does have a motorsports background! From 2012 to 2022 the Prius was campaigned by Japanese racing team apr in the Super GT series in the GT300 class (along other original GT300 cars as well as GT3-class cars). The Prius GTs were developed with Toyota's input, and Toyota SPECIFICALLY required that the hybrid system use road-going components, which made the car significantly heavier than the other hybrid GT300 car in 2012, the CR-Z, which had a purpose-built racing hybrid system (yes, the Honda CR-Z that Jake has). That one was withdrawn after 2015. There were two versions of the Prius campaigned: the first generation Prius apr GT (based on the Gen 3-4 Prius) from 2012 to 2019, and the second generation GR Sport Prius PHV (based on the Gen 4 Prius PHV Sport) from 2019 until 2022. The first generation Prius was mid-engined RWD (3.4L RV8KLM V8 engine, from Toyota customer prototype racing such as the Rebellion R-One) with a hybrid system derived from the road-going car's Hybrid Synergy Drive and mounted in the passenger seat. This version of the Prius was the most successful, winning 4 races in 56 entries and multiple podiums, and placing 2nd in the standings in 2016 and 3rd in 2015 and 2018. 2016 sees two Priuses fielded by apr with two separate systems: one car used lithium ion batteries, and the other used capacitors. The capacitor car was the one that achieved second in the standings. Interesting note: because of Japanese legislation lithium-ion batteries couldn't be legally exported, so for the early years of the Prius program when Super GT raced overseas (in Thailand and Malaysia), the Priuses had to run with the hybrid system disabled. The second generation Prius was front-engined, RWD. Super GT's rules changed this year stipulating that GT300 vehicles must have the engine in the same location as the production vehicle, which ruled out the previous mid-engined Prius GT. This version of the Prius uses the same hybrid system, but swaps the 3.4L V8 for a production-based 5.4L 2UR-GSE V8 engine located in the front. This second gen Prius was less successful because both apr and Toyota had very little experience trying to make a front-engined hybrid race car work (all but the very first hybrid race cars, a Lexus GS450h and a Toyota Supra, had been mid-engined). They scored one win in 2021, and the Prius was retired after 2022, replaced by a Lexus LC500h, which uses the same hybrid system.
But would that be considered a racing background more than a decade after the concept came out and that racing introduced after the fact on the 3rd and later generations? I don't want to downplay your to me very interesting knowledge. But I am, because racing competition was an afterthought. On the 190 it was all in and resulted in a hardcore street version. I find it an unfair comparison. But I'm here to get my mind changed.
TIL the apr Priuses used a derivative of the roadgoing Prius's electric drivetrain components. Still, I'm not fully convinced. The 190E's racing activities hold as much significance as they do with regards to the car's history because it raced in the Group A era of DTM. Group A was more permissive when it came to mods than Group N (hence the DTM cars pushing 10K rpm) but was still resolutely a production-based racing class. The point of Group A was always that, underneath all of the mods the race teams did to the race cars, they were effectively the same cars you could buy off the showroom floor. That's why 190E 2.5-16 Evo IIs have those garish rear wings and flared arches - AMG needed a better starting point from which to build the race cars. Toyota never made a mid-engined Prius with a performance-oriented hybrid drivetrain, inboard suspension, and an ex-LMP1 V8 under the hood. As novel and hilarious as apr's Priuses were, they were barely Priuses at all by the time apr was done cutting them up and fabricating custom parts for them (including the custom front and rear subframes).
hilarious. saying the Prius has motorsport background, is no more than saying the 200+mph Camry Nascar and the Camry your grandma drives is nearly identical.
I love how Jason raves about the startups totally ignoring the fact that 190E’s quality and durability cemented the reputation, which new companies still struggle with a lot.
EVs have less maintenance requirement, less parts to break, and are more reliable compared to internal combustion powered vehicles ... so yea, they check that box too.
@@TheLastMoccasinif you check official running costs and maintenance from big fleets, you'll find the exact opposite of what you believe to be the truth.
Not to pander to something we all you know both of you are fond of, but the MK7 Golf I think may be looked back upon like the the W201 190E. Hear me out: The Golf MK7 debuted as a 2013-2015 model year vehicle (depending on your market). The vehicle was a major step forward for materials, fit & finish quality, performance & safety/features in that class and price point. Just look at any competitor from that model year. Mainly plastic-fantastic, cheap & cheerful transportation. Here in North America, you had a wonderful standard 1.8TSI engine that punched WAY above its weight in terms of power, yet was actually incredibly efficient. Top-Notch passenger crash-safety. You had the availability of advanced driver assistance features, adaptive front lighting, panoramic moonroof, full leather sport seats, true premium audio, all of which were very rare features in this class & price point (Mazda being the only other to dabble in premium/small at that price, at least in North America). And nobody combined these all in one car, that also drove so well, at that price. The driving experience was/is so much more "Premium" than anything else in the class, and drove line an Audi, for $20K. I think this is a big part of how I relate these two vehicles. You had a vehicle that it was evident the money went into the platform, the same way it would for the big VW/Audi cars, but it was scaled down to a "masses" price & size (too bad Americans don't like wagons & hatches... I single-handedly blame you for why we can't have Golfs up here in Canada anymore haha). The interior, in addition to being beautifully crafted, was also ergonomically perfect. This was a pre-Diesel Gate car (development), and I do not think that we will ever see that level of attention to detail & investment in a really great small car from VW AG again. Look at any of their recent interiors, drivetrains, pricing, etc., and you can see that there has been a change. The fact that the MK7 Golf grew to spawn an entire generation of great sporty/enthusiast models above the regular models, and I think it has a great amount of importance in that realm as well. Not to mention the "bones" underpin a wildly vast amount of other corporate models (and the ENTIRETY of the current USA/CAN ICE lineup), and the impact stretches even further. The technical aspects & innovations of the car last to this day. I agree with the list you came up with in technicality, but I think the MK7 Golf should be on the list in a more spiritual sense.
@@artsohc I genuinely thought about that, especially on the interior refinement front, and how good the GTI/GLI was. But the cars here were never available with any of the high-end options, particularly the Golfs, the sole gas engine choice was a 2.5L lump that was not especially refined, powerful, or economical, they began to disintegrate the moment they drove off the lot, and the 2.0T is notorious for about a thousand different issues. At the other end of the spectrum, I do not believe the MK5 R had near the effect on the enthusiast market as the MK7 R did either. All in all, I stand by my selection haha
One often overlooked yet extremely innovative car was the '82 Nissan Prairie, later sold as the Multi and Stanza Wagon in North America. This was the first car we would classify as a minivan, with dual sliding doors that latch to the chassis (with no physical B pillar) seating up to 8 passengers, having unibody construction, and using a front wheel drive transverse layout. Later models could be optioned with 4wd. The engines on offer weren't too innovative, with one coming with twin plug ignition to meet North American emissions standards. The rear suspension used a torsion bar to keep the load floor low, as designs for the initial design concept visualized a wide variety of applications for the Prairie, from emergency vehicles to cargo vans, airport shuttles to taxis. The design was heavily inspired by an Italian design concept, the Lancia Megagamma, designed by Giorgetto Giugiaro. That concept later went on to inspire Mitsubishi's Chariot, but was a major influence for Nissan's designers, as noted in (I can't remember what issue) Car Styling Quarterly. So if you want to talk a car that changed the automotive landscape, there you go. It was innovative, came after the 190e, inspired a generation of car designs, and has Italian design roots.
In one of Gordon Murray’s T.33 debut interviews (can’t remember with who), the interviewer asked Gordon who he admired most of the modern carmakers. Gordon responded Mazda. If your a Mazda guy, chances are you’re also a car guy
The Honda NSX has to be part of this. New market for Honda, kinda democratized the sports car, brought reliability and comfort to future cars, genuine world beating performance for its time.
I don't think the NSX democratized the sports car considering how expensive it was new, that could be the original NA Miata. A car that sold in millions, did everything right (like the LS400) and made zee Germans take up notice while creating the British sports car that never was and revived a whole segment that created the Boxster, SLK, TT, S2000 and so on. It created the sports-car renaissance of the 90s!
@@PetrospectI’d argue it did because it removed the huge barrier of reliability and upkeep. I have been in positions where I could afford the sticker price of a nice car but was unwilling/afraid to take on the maintenance costs that came afterwards.
@@artsohc That is fair but it didn't come first nor did it add anything particularly new to the idea of a sportscar/supercar which is why I don’t think (though notable) isn’t a 190E sort of deal for me! Fair point though, has to be noted. That's the biggest contribution Japan in general had to the car industry IMO.
Maybe sold in the U.S., but the Prius was already out in 1997 to the Insight's 1999. Besides that, never as the Insight of any generation garnered the visibility/sales of the Prius, especially after the second generation Prius that Honda decided to mimic the second time around. Insight might have had bigger numbers, but it came at the cost of practicality. The sales were never anywhere close to the Toyota, and the first gen Insight was far more the hypermiler wet-dream than an everymans commuter. The reality is, the common man needs a back seat sometimes.
I completely agree that Prius is the one that took over the world, but it wasn’t revolutionary in any way. The insight was an all aluminum chassis, bespoke lightweight transmission, lean burning engine with a special catalytic converter. It’s a showcase of technology for what efficiency looks like, which is quite revolutionary. The only purpose built efficiency cars since have been the Opel Ecospeedster and the VW XL1.
Closest new car in SIZE to the MB 190 I could find is the Nissan Versa...Shorter wheelbase, but 3" LONGER than the Benz. And about the same curb weight. The 190 was truly an amazing car for its time. Nobody packs as many of the MB qualities and virtues in this compact of a package today.
First generation Versa hatch for sure did some amazing stuff for what it was versus the competition packaging wise, but the follow up put it back a notch (aside from the roomy back seat). I'd still generally recommend the Fit overall to anyone, for the magic back seat combined with driving dynamics combination. The follow-up Versa was absolute bargain basement first and foremost, with some of the most flimsy, cheap plastic in the class, even against prior generations of subcompacts (though arguably "utilitarian"). The first gen, in higher trim had amazing soft touch armrests, huge space, good NVH control, that massive 1.8L (albeit not a powerhouse for the time), a six-speed (but by no means were those cars dynamic, but still better than what followed).
One of the big dimensional differences is that newer cars are MUCH wider than car from the 90s and before. The 190E is 66.5" wide. A '24 Impreza is 70" wide, a '24 3 series is 72" wide, and most all American market CUVs (#1 sellers) are all at least 73" wide and some are 75-76" wide. This width is absurd! Better to have a car that is a bit longer and narrower as it is better for road space, maneuverability, aerodynamics etc. I guess if you need a larger middle seat in the second row then the extra width helps. Doors are so thick now too, that packaging efficiency is absolutely terrible. I'll stop rambling now. Anyways, the 190E is the RIGHT size and I wish 80% of vehicles for sale today were this size.
What about the Mk7 Golf/GTI/R? It was made so well that it made Mercedes delay the W205 (the W201 successor) by a year. The Mk7 democratized a $50,000 car for half price, and that could make it a 190E successor in terms of build quality, ride and NVH in some ways… maybe also in terms of the MQB platform being so modular that a lot of other companies have adopted that method for platforms.
I second this, the MQB platform underpins everything from the sub compact Polo to the three row SUV Atlas. A remarkable feat of engineering. I own a MK7 R (selling soon after 5.5 years of ownership) and I feel comfortable asserting that it is the most complete car the sub $50k market has ever had. I cross shopped the entire competitive market (STI, Focus RS, CTR) and the Mk7 R is as fast or faster than any of them, almost as good to drive (better IMO than the STI) but absolutely stomps them in every other way that matters in a daily, NVH (5-< dB queiter at highway speeds), practicality, efficiency (my R gets about 31 mpg which is like 8 more than an STI or Focus RS). I just wish they had sold the estate version in the US.
I'm amazed Jason didn't mention the Elise, innovation in chassis design for maximum weight saving, in a relatively affordable package that ended up being a major success for Lotus
It wasn't mainstream enough to be compared to cars like the 190e. It was innovative, but little to none of its construction was ever applied to a conventional passenger car.
@@shingoose6197 Not true. Elise was the first car with bonded aluminium structure. Many mainstream cars use this technology today, just not for the whole chassis.
The editing during the exchange about the Jeep Cherokee at 33:35 is perfect. I would argue that the second generation of Prius more than the 1st gen because it's just so iconic and doesn't just look like a Yaris with a battery pack.
The original Ford Taurus? I’m always hearing about what a big deal it was when it came out, with its aerodynamic shape and huge sales. It came out 2 years after the Mercedes
While I agree (and since Jason even did one of his stories of the SHO), the Taurus shook the market here, not globally like the 190. The aerodynamic treatment was one of the key factors, and made other American car manufacturers shift. After all, we're talking about a global shift here, as far as I'm concerned (which, the Prius did come first, but was sold after the Insight in the U.S. which is where that confusion may have come from).
I genuinely laughed out loud when Derek said that he actually done a case study on innovation risk taking regarding the Prius, Jason immediately knew he couldn't argue it 😂
I was thinking the first generation of the Aluminum/Ecoboost F-150's. Those choices were pretty controversial at the time, but it brought "modern" features to one of the best selling vehicles in the world.
I'd like to offer the Mark IV Vw Golf. Technical innovations: DSG Gearbox, or CVT, 4speed automatic, 5 or 6 speed manual fully zinc coated body, 4Motion as well as a raft of interesting engines 1.8T 5valve, 1.9TDI Pumpe-Düse, FSI (Direct injection) R32, VR 5 etc. Luxurious Interior compared to basically everything in it's class at it's time, very safe with head airbags, esp as standard, ebv as well as msr, xenon headlights heated mirrors and windscreen washers, sat nav, climate control, a very complex safety steering rack, etc. It also got a large part of eastern europe on wheels especially the 1.9Tdi with it's high tuning potential, fuel economy and reliability. The 1.8T engine is still an important stepping stone for young people that are into modifying cars. It basically created the premium hatchback segment which is a very important market segment here in Europe. And finally it got Volkswagen back a reputation for making quality cars which was lost under Lopez ruthless cost cutting. I personally think it looks good and was very practical. The R32 also represents a nice parallel to the 2.3 16 and derivatives.
The originsl Mercedes A-Class. It opened up a new lower market sector for Mercedes, sold well and was highly (get it) innovative. It wasn't pretty, nor very sporty, but it started the premium high seating position segment in europe, that has been very popular (especially with seniors) ever since, even it has optics wise (!) shifted over to SUVs.
Nothing about the original A-Class is premium. They didn't even bother lining up the design of the door panels to the dash! Though I love the packaging and simplicity of them, I'd say it's the least luxurious Mercedes by far. It did have some technical innovations, namely putting the engine partly under the floor and this newfound ability to roll over
Same with LS400. Had thought of it earlier before they relaxed the rules to cars that pioneered a new class or gave innovations to the masses, but then totally forgot about it.
How about the Honda Fit? A bit on the lower end for sure but it was pretty impressive in terms of build quality, chassis design, dynamics, and safety for something of that size
Well... TBH Subaru was 8 years before Audi with their 4WD in road cars. Also rally Quattro debuted half a year after Leone 4WD participated in Safari rally.
It took them far longer than I'd thought they would to get to Prius. It's the enduring symbol of vehicle efficiency and paved the way to EVs even if Toyota themselves are lagging behind right now. Econoboxes weren't a new thing, but the Prius and the rest of Toyota's hybrids that followed remarkably changed how we view cars and also how manufacturers view cars. The egg-shaped aero SUVs and Teslas of today can trace their roots to the Insight and Prius. Coupling an electric motor to an ICE powertrain led to things like PHEVs, regenerative braking in passenger cars, and performance hybrids like the Corvette E-ray, all these hybrid exec sedans, the 2nd NSX, and even Formula 1.
GR Yaris/Corlla, innovative AWD system, built for motorsport but ended up not being able to compete in the motorsport it was developed for, moved the brand into a market it was not traditionally known for, made it's most direct competitor (arguably WRX/Sadly departed STI), expensive but extremely reasonable for what you get. I think the GR Yaris/Corolla deserves to at least be part of the competition.
The Tesla model 3 is the best answer but let me suggest these just for fun: C8 corvette: democratizing big power MR configuration GR Yaris: sufisticated AWD and a racy 3 cylinder to smaller car segment BMW i8: didn't make a splash but a uniquely designed hybrid sports car, won performance car of the year and world green car award
I'm astonished no one else has mentioned the i8. It was received badly by the press and customers, so it sold badly. But the technology behind it was/is amazing. And some of the technology (carbon tub) was used on the i3. I think both cars were too far ahead of their time... Both are now an almost 15 y/o design and still look fresh and modern.
1992 Camry (wagon) gang checking in. I bought this thing because I was bored during Covid and the level of quality and sustained usability is astounding even 30 years on.
Volvo 850R - First side impact airbags. Passive rear wheel steering. Motorsports (BTCC). New market for sporty wagon in the US. Wheel arches are... .blockular.
Kind of a stretch, but the C8 Corvette certainly democratized an exotic format in the US market. Also the King Ranch F150 brought very high end interior, and relative car-like driving experience to farmers and construction contractors.
I absolutely cannot believe that the NA Miata is not on this list. This has to be the first answer to this question as it brought an entire market segment (Japanese lightweight convertible) and brought back the idea of the British sports car while revolutionizing it to be used by the masses, everyday. If I had to pick another one, I think the R35 GTR could also fit on this list.
I’m onto the “most 190E since the 190E” and before I hear the boys, my thoughts on cars that brought innovation to the marketplace and a new/luxury experience to a segment that didn’t have it/exist before…. Acura NSX Lexus LS400 Mk5 GTI/GLI Model S
Ok, got to the part where you asked for my reasoning… NSX brought a reliable experience to the super car world forcing other brands to up their game. Brought VTEC too yo. LS400 brought everything S-Class to the market with added reliability and affordability with arguably improved NVH. And some of the coolest gauges. Model S cause innovation of the electric car, self drive, over-air updates, etc etc. Mk5 GTI/GLI is a selfish choice. My wife had a Mk4 Jetta and “traded up” for a 2004 Audi A4. I then got a 2006 GTI and she swore it was nicer inside than her A4. She traded her A4 for a GLI. I think the Mk5 reinvigorated the hot hatch for the USA and it brought the technical innovation of DSG to the masses.
This and the NA miata. Jason and Derek immediately swatted it away for not having any technical innovation but it brought the sports car experience to so many more people that I think it's a really important car and a contender.
The Boxster didn’t really move Porsche though the 914 and 924/44/68 all existed before and in the same market space as the Boxster what the Boxster did was capitalise on that space like none of the others had
fisker tires are suppedly partially natural rubber to minimize chemical toxicity of tire wear dust with minimum grip loss by placing rubber in specific places
There are a few that come to mind that fall a bit short for one reason or another, like the series 1 Elise and both NSX generations for sports cars, and the w168 Mercedes A-Class, BMW i3 and original Smart Fortwo for compact cars. But for me the most noteworthy for the fifth spot are the: -aw10 MR2 for democratizing the mid engine sports car while also not being an unreliable italian car. -NA MX-5 for being the most impactful sports car of the past 30 years, not much needs to be said about it. -R32/R35 Nissan GT-R for being an astounding technical tour de force for their respective time periods (a lot of it still being very impressive to this day) and being super car beaters for a fraction of the cost, and still retaining a bit of practicality and usability while carrying on its stride a legendary motorsports legacy. And finally the 2 that, in my opinion, fit the spirit of the 190 the most: -Audi A2 for being a wonder of packaging engineering, fitting old school Audi build quality, interior space and reliability into a supermini segment car which has sadly never been replicated since. It was the second production car that Audi built on their aluminium space frame technology and I think the second mass-produced car that was mostly made out of aluminium overall (don't quote me on that) after the A8. Its extremely light, extremely aerodynamic and fit with extremely efficient engines, the diesels being the most noteworthy, all for the purpose of maximum fuel economy (the 1.2 "3L" version was able to achieve under 3L/100km), while still being a comfortable and refined city and highway cruiser. A truly Piëchian "money is no object" engineering exercise built for a very specific purpose. -MK1 Ford Focus for being a complete revolution of the affordable compact hatchback segment, it was the first of its class that featured rear multi-link suspension which resulted in a vehicle that was not only a very good day-to-day car, but also a great driver's car (particularly in ST/SVT and RS guises) while also not compromising on interior space. All of this, combined with its styling that was unlike anything else on the road at the time, and its very successful motorsports presence in the WRC, turned it into one of Ford of Europe's best selling cars of all time.
Mk1 Focus is a great shoutout! To somehow bring this back to Mazda which the boys mentioned, they took the Focus' rear "control blade" multi-link suspension, added double wishbones in the front and sold it as a 6 in its first generation. I wouldn't go so far as to say it's 190E-ish, but they did sell many and the Mazdaspeed variant brought Haldex AWD and an early example of a direct injected turbo engine into the mix
Nissan GTR: 1. Motorsport 2. Engineering and production like no other before (at this pricepoint) 3. Democratized faceripping hypercar performance at sportcar price. 4. Pivoted inthusiast car industry to 0-60 and skid pad Gs war.
Man, if I had just scrolled a little farther, I wouldn't have typed out my comment on how the GTR changed sports cars for the worse. I cannot agree with this post any more!
Acura Legend belongs on the list. Honda Prelude had four wheel steering. Acura NSX made supercar technology and handling attainable for half the cost of a Ferrari. just a few suggestions. Dodge created a new class of vehicle with the Caravan.
I’m only a couple minutes in, but my vote for most 190E is likely the Model 3 Performance. Though I think a reiteration of the 3 with the innovations from the CyberTruck would be more accurate.
@@Spooly_If society truly collapsed the Model 3 would be far easier to keep running than any ICE vehicle of any kind. Making electricity is easy, finding and refining petrol or diesel, not so much.
AMC Eagle. I believe it was the first mass-market AWD sedan/wagon (I would argue that it created the market segment, long before Subaru). Low price point. Motorsport pedigree (SCCA rally). It was an AWD crossover 20 years before it's time. It was completely unlike anything else at the time. No crazy new tech, but it brought AWD compact cars to the masses. Grand Cherokee "ZJ". in 1993, SUVs were typically based on pickup trucks, including the leaf spring suspension and ladder frame. The ZJ was the first with unibody construction, coil spring suspension, and 4-wheel antilock disk brakes. It was the first mass-market SUV with actual sporting pretense AND a comfortable ride. Its standard 6-cylinder was as powerful as most V8s of the time. The design was by Larry Shinoda, and Giorgetto Giugiaro had also consulted on it. It was "sporty", stylish, and upmarket at a time when other SUVs were utilitarian boxes.
It’s really the Model 3 in terms of “game changing”. Hurts to say as a petrol head getting priced out of the market. I’m increasingly interested in motorcycles. Bought a beginner bike last year and I’m obsessed.
In terms of impact, sure. But the 190 can't be ignored in terms of its long term legacy, which is something no new EV is going to be able to do given current battery tech.
@@Briggsian yep, their going to be dumpster garbage in 5 to 10 years. I also 2nd the moto ideea...as fun and enthusiast cars are simply non-existent at affordable price points.
Tesla is the drag race champ. My downtown, public transport friends know this. I'm 32 and no one my age knows what a 190E is. Again, I'd rather have my old 2008 base model manual Civic than a new Elantra. But the avg consumer is pop culture sponge @@Briggsian
1) original Ford Explorer 2) original Prius 3) GM super cruise 4) GM magRide 5) original Lexus LS 6) Tesla model S 7) Jaguar I-PACE - first luxury EV / Tesla competitor
@@Forke13 many of the current crossovers are unwittingly borrowing many ideas from the Aztek. The form factor, the 'we have nothing else to market this on' features like camping gear, the aesthetic-only plastic cladding, the split headlights that make you scratch your head, the practicality over style... Aztek was ahead of its time
@@YouRedix I don't know, man... There are Nissan, Peugeot (actually all the french), Dacia, Subaru and so on with similarly hideous cars before and after. Plastic cars also are all over the place for 40+ years, even the first gen Mercedes A Class as a standout example. I don't see where aztec did anything that stuck because of it or was even new in the first place.
Great show How about the VW Golf MKIV R32. Yes it was a special version but it shape what many hatchbacks and crossover are today. Really nice interior, good performance (VR6 3.2 and DCT) and the Haldex AWD system. It was cool looking and with sales number exceeding the demand VW planed Also the BMW E32 that changes Mercedes launch date of the W140. It was the first German car with a V12, first car with traction control, adaptive suspension, xenon ligths, parking sensors and high lines version were also crazy spec. Also it used ZF 5 speed transmission and it was big car that was sporty to drive.
Not sure if it was mentioned but the R32 Nissan Skyline GT-R comes to mind. It had many innovations used in one place atessa/4wd/twin turbo torque split etc not all Nissan ideas but certainly brought together for the first time. It offered a level of performance that was almost absurd for the late 80s and it did it at a much more affordable price range than any of the European equivalents. And of course the motorsports side is unbelievable. It changed what people thought they could get in performance over night. R32 gtr
The GT-R Skyline R32, R33 and R34 were good, very good, but not purists cars. The 190 was simpler in the driver aids sense. The more raw, yet balanced and tuned a car is, the more pure it is. The 3 R's were not like the very first Skyline GT-R, Hakosuka - that one was pure.
What about VW Phaeton. It’s definitely not a mass market car, but it brought essentially a Bentley to a lower price bracket and is engineered to an incredibly high extreme. I’m just not sure if the price point disqualifies it.
The closest I can think of is the E55 AMG, but not only are those cars also getting more expensive ($15k-$30k), they were V8s and never came in a Manual. You'll have to do a Manual Transmission swap.
R35 GTR - it was the first modern car that pushed crazy magazine numbers mainstream with technology while not providing much, if any, driving enjoyment. I believe the current state of the modern enthusiast cars can be directly traced to the R35.
This is the answer for a "performance" car for the list. It changed the supercar market and made "supercar" stuff available to the masses. Dual clutch, AWD, Forced induction and legitimate top end performance. I'd argue the C6Z democratized supercar performance cheaper/earlier, but it is really just a widebody bored out C5Z. The C6Z gave us cheap "old world" supercar performance. The R35 moved "supercar" into the uncompromising automatic/computer aided track time above all else, weight be damned world it still resides in.
@@lakeelmpine5351 Disagree. The R35 didn't bring much to the masses, it was instead a Japanese take on current technology but optimized. It was certainly a high tech, advanced car. But it didn't do anything significant in terms of the packaging layout, design... It's a significant car to the world of high performance, fast cars. But to the masses? It's not on the level of influence the 190e was on.
Porsche Cayman? Mid engine for the masses ( of course Fiat X19 and Toyota MR2 did that too); racing involvement; slightly democratized Porsche by being cheaper than a 911; arguably the world's best sportscar when you consider the holistic amalgamation of price/handling/looks/build quality/holding its value/the strength of the PCA and the numerous Porsche themed events one can participate in (PCA local tours and events, Treffens, Parades, Werks, Rennsports Reunions...)
My picks: Miata - it proved you can make affordable sports car and I believe that based on its success we were experiencing tons of affordable sports models coming from Japan and Europe in 90s/00s. Nissan Quashai - started small crossover class, democratized SUVs for ppl, and now thanks to its success - this type of car is most popular worldwide and some brands are making nothing but SUVs. Audi A2 or Smart - one is based on a technology of a flagship Audi A8, but had an interior like A4 from those times. It is a small car, thats feels like a premium car 2 sizes bigger. Small premium car idea. Smart is an example of a first micro car created from a scratch and around this idea, that was done by a huge brand. Proved that you can pack a lot into this space and still make it very very safe in case of an accidents. Many brands followed in europe with idea of making even smaller cars and in a future where cities will become more cramped - we gonna go back to the Smart idea of cars. Nissan GT-R - hyper car performance for a sports car money. Before tesla ppl were taking reaction videos from GT-Rs. Performance was mind-bending and nowadays most of a high performance cars is using same tricks: launch control + powerful turbocharged engine + a lot of technology to provide maximum of a traction in any moment.
The Qashqai is not even close to the first small crossover, it was beat to the market by Rav4 (1994), Forester (1997), CR-V (1997), and Escape (2000), several more came in the next few years before Qashqai finally showed up in 2006.
Ford Raptor - Created the genre of an "extreme Off Road" trim level with associated re-engineering and equipment upgrades to take an existing platform (F150 and consequently EVERY SUV, truck and even most Subarus) upmarket and into a more desirable niche. Chevrolet Volt - Shaped the entire movement towards electrified automobiles by spurring battery tech engineering and the associated software and hardware needs required to make it feasible. Made the concept of "driving a giant battery around" and public charging socially acceptable and "mundane".
The E90 335i is what I’ve always thought of as the modern 190E. With a starting MSRP just under $40k, it brought loads of new things to its segment of entry-level compact executive car: - a huge leap in performance to the non-performance trim (non-M/S/AMG) compact executive car category with the N54/55 straight 6 turbo connected to optional AWD and a manual transmission - the first true infotainment to that entry level executive car segment with iDrive - Heavy use of aluminum in the suspension components, previously reserved for 5-series and above - BMW’s first ever retractable hardtop - The ability to build the car to your needs at the mechanical configuration level. By the end of that gen, you could get a 335i in coupe, sedan, hardtop convertible or wagon, choice of AT/DCT/MT, and the option for RWD or AWD. The innovation there is that not only did they offer a “spicy” trim level with loads of power without going up to an M car, but they allowed you to spec a 335i into any configuration available for the lower trim 3 series. Typically a budget performance trim model had been limited in application, offering it in only a manual RWD coupe configuration for example. Aside from all the “firsts” the 335i brought to its segment, it was also 190E-like in that you got a huge amount of features for that modest price. In 2006 it offered things like Xenon headlights, adaptive suspension, a performance chip tune from the factory, automatic climate control, navigation, heated seats, Bluetooth, iDrive, Keyless entry, auto dimming and auto folding mirrors, and headlight washers. For 2006, that was an impressive feature set for an entry level model from any manufacturer. Thinking about it, the 135i and M240i have kept that tradition alive since the e90, stuffing big performance and features into a compact vehicle with excellent build quality for a relatively low/attainable price.
Nearly two decades later, BMW has accidentally democratized speed for young car enthusiasts. Every beginner car guy buys one and tunes it up to at least 500hp😂😂
Just the E9x platform as a whole (the hardtop convertible isn't an E90, that's a sedan code, like E91 is the wagon, E92 is the coupe, etc). 335i was just a small part of the E9x platform, and you're giving it a little too much credit for feature content. A lot of what you listed was already in the E46 that came before it. Heated seats, Xenon headlights, adaptive headlights, navigation, keyless entry, auto-dimming mirrors, auto climate control, headlight washers-- a lot of that was already available on the E46. I don't even think auto-folding mirrors were a thing on the E9x.... maybe through iDrive? Which, iDrive just helps age the interior technology just like old sat-nav and tape decks (goes for any car, really)... I wouldn't call it a plus on the classic car market someday. While it made a lot of changes, it was an evolution and nothing more, and in some way started down a negative rabbit hole for BMW and the 3-Series. This is when only the M3 came with an LSD (unless I'm misssing some super rare/expensive dealer option that nobody seems to talk about)-- non-M E9x/E8x's I've heard are open diff) but the E46 I believe had the option on non-M's. The 335i also brought the end of natural aspiration/port injection reliability (though, okay, progress... otherwise we'd still be adjusting carbs and chokes). There are still a lot of N52 engine fans out there, even though it's hard to get good power, it's a solid enough powerplant. A lot of people have been gravitating to the 128i over the 135i for that reason. The second gen Z4 3.0iS was the stop of that in a sporty body. Leaving all of the credit to te 335i, good as they are, doesn't feel like a 190E moment.
Sitting here screaming about the Chevy Volt as you argue Priuses (Prii?). Much like the Prius established the mild hybrid, the Volt proved the small battery EV with an engine onboard for charging and highway use was effective and led to almost every manufacturer now offering a PHEV in their lineup today.
Here’s two: MK1 Ford Focus - it democratised handling with the rear independent suspension. I brought new edge styling & even soft touch heater controls. It did motorsport in the WRC too New MINI - proved the small premium hatch had a market. Innovated the huge customisation option list. Like the Focus it prioritised handling.
The ford raptor hits most boxes. Besides size. Suspension was revolutionary for a street legal truck. Every truck manufacturer has been playing catch up since it was released. Created the trophy truck for the streets market. And definitely democratized Baja trucks
VW Mk7 golf/gti with the intro of MQB. The MQB platform changed the way cars are manufactured. It allowed sportier, luxurious qualities to be shared among expensive and cheaper vehicles while sharing the same platform. VW really change what could be done in a ‘small’ car. Not to mention, GTI was the first car to have an electro-mechanical LSD in the front. They really made a Golf for almost everything.. GTI, Golf R, Alltrack, Sportwagen, etc. it’s no coincidence Toyota, Subaru, BMW, and other brands started doing this soon after. Mk7 produced technical innovations that changed how cars are made, rejuvenated the hot hatch segment when it came out, changed what was possible for a ‘small’ car.. definitely worthy of this list
2004 MK5 GTI，it basically kicked off the 2.0T direct injected, dual clutch, hatch’s of the world and at the same time offered the best interior quality, NVH, ride quality south of 28K.
IRS as well, and the mk5 Jetta. DSG GLI was an incredible car in 2006. Huge trunk, efficient, great to drive, good engine for a turbo 4. Nothing came close for the money at that time. Not a match for the W201s innovations but great cars.
I feel like the Raptor belongs on this list. Brought about the whole Baja/ pre-running thing. Copied by everyone now. First real performance off-road truck. Incredibly popular. Has the performance history, winning Baja. 5-link suspension was new for trucks (pretty sure?).
If that's the case, the first generation Altima V6 set the entire midsized sedan segment into a power war, the WRX coming to America hopped up sport compacts a bit, etc. The problem here is: Raptor is just a (highly modified) trim of an existing mass-market vehicle that would have existed without it, and will exist when it is extinct. Likewise, it's not a world-wide shift, merely American (same with that Altima and WRX comparison).
Currently just starting the episode so let's go with Mitsubishi EVO offers a lot of the performance and more with absolutely no luxury. A Chevy SS / G8 GXP would be considered too large by comparison but by modern day they're similar size to a M3. The ATSV and whatever it's called now would be smaller but not better. The CTR is the only car that really does the "it's bigger on the inside" which has internal volume similar to a CRV while being a wide body Civic with a hotter engine from an Accord. Without dropping to two doors it's tricky to have something comparable.
35:12 Jason picking up that DTS accidentally said that an average of a Macan and Cayenne is a "Mayenne", which sounds like "moyenne" (average) in French, made my day.
Chevy volt? Brought a new hybrid system and refinement to a some what inexpensive package. A 4 door sloped roof hatchback. Did anyone do that shape well before it? I’m guessing yes but ca not think of it.
Tesla Model 3/Y brought low-maintenance & performance goodness from Model S/Y down to regular-people price range accessibility. Miata brought Lotus Elise 1st Gen form-factor/dynamics/ethos to the masses (with better robustness & pricing). Model Y plus Miata/MX-5 = great "two car solution" for reasonable price points & excellent reliability / low maintenance.
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Fiat panda series 1 with 4wd 1983. Lancia delta w/ 4wd (1986). Both after 1982 so they count. Both 4wd in small segments, packaging tech innovation, delta in rally, panda was the cheapest 4wd car in Europe during its entire time. Panda made a new segment completely.
My immediate thought was Lexus LS400. Possibly not the most technically original but its quality and refinement at a price nobody else could get near has to get some credit, and even more impressive in hindsight given how long lasting they are. The other one, which some will scoff at, is the original Mercedes A-Class. High profile boo-boo on launch aside it had true Mercedes innovation behind it. That sandwich platform design meant you could have big-car safety (as the engine hard point would slide underneath in a crash) and big car space (E-Class equivalent) in a platform shorter than a Ford Ka and affordable to average consumers. Doesn't have W201-style longevity but maybe Prius aside, we're yet to see whether Model 3s, Rivians, Cayennes etc will last as long as a 190E either...
Ok, I'm only a few minutes into the discussion and I don't know where you guys will land, so here's my opinion. The car that most closely matches the 190E's characteristics is the Genesis G70. Let's see where you two end up on this.
I would argue although it's a bit of a price jump, the Cadillac CT4 V Blackwing is closer. Honorable mention to the much forgotten Audi RS 3, even if the G70 is closer to the 190E than it.
Well, I don't think any car is going to really meet all the criteria you've established here, but there are some cars that stood out to me as having notable similarities. The car that most resembles the 190E spiritually to me is the 5th generation Honda Civic, and the short explanation for that is "because it was a small car that was shockingly better than it needed to be." Like the 190E, those Civics performed very well aerodynamically. They also had a suspension innovation of their own in democratizing the double wishbone architecture in small, inexpensive, unibody cars. Add to that the advanced and refined VTEC powerplant, which I think was a little more significant that you make it out to be. Sure, other manufacturers were playing with variable cam phasing back then, but it'd be the end of the '90s before you saw them coming up with ways to change valve lift on the fly. They were technically innovative cars in any right, but particularly so for the segment. Both cars were also built and engineered far better than they needed to be, and in ways that neither company continues to do. That alone is a theme you won't find on many cars of this size segment (though I would argue that the XV10 Camry does fit in here as well -- as a car built to a standard more than a price). And while the 5th-gen Civic didn't have a special version for homologation, an awful lot of them found their way onto racetracks. And not just in amateur hands, as N1 in Japan wasn't all that different from DTM in Germany. There is a genuine sporting pedigree in that, so much so that the next generation even got a track-focused Type-R variant a few years later. Where does the 5th-gen Civic fall short? I wouldn't say it was legitimately luxurious, for one. It was a nice economy car, and a real step up if you were coming from something like a Cavalier, but that's not really the same thing as luxury. It also did not drive with the same stability as a larger Honda, let alone an S-Class, so the big car feel in a small car package is missing. Of course, the problem with all of this is that 5th-gen Civics are old AF, too.
I think the fifth should be the Tesla Model S Plaid. Yes it is expensive, but it achieves acceleration that was thought to be nearly impossible at any price for a production vehicle.
But the argument is that simply being straight line is too much of a one-trick-pony. That's where the Lucid Sapphire comes in for so many enthusiast outlets that actually... you know... care about maintaining control. Handling and braking at speed is not the Plaid's strong suit.
I can't believe with all the recent stuff Jason has done on the Cybertruck's innovation and firsts in the market. True 48v architecture. New battery technology. True steer-by-wire. Complete re-think of how a pickup truck is constructed and used with it's exoskeleton etc. that it wasn't immediately on the list.
Hasn’t had any impact yet practically, if in a year or two they’ve sold 300,000 I think it would need to go on the list. Especially if the price has come down.
The mid engined c-8 Corvette, bringing the super/hyper car and the E-Rey’s front electric motor’s and torque vectoring to the masses at a reasonable price.
@@redlion145 but it managed to stick around for so long, and it such high numbers, that it became a car of the masses. Truthfully, the Model 3 is the closest thing to it in terms of impact and ubiquity, but the Model 3 is a more disposable car overall.
I'm always surprised by Hyundai/Kia's early adoption of VGT (Variable Geometry Turbo). At one point I think it was only Porsche and Hyundai that did it on gasoline engines. (VGT on diesel was somewhat common due to lower exhaust temp.) The CVVD (Continuously Variable Valve Duration), albeit gimmicky, was pretty cool too.
Being designed as a response to a legislation change is very common BUT it almost always ends up being quoted as justification as to why the end result is so obviously bad.
Tesla model 3 is best choice on this list. You cannot escape it’s presence in even small towns in the south. You can’t argue with its performance either. As much as I don’t think it’s truly a luxury car it definitely blurs the line especially for the price. Not to mention it’s mechanical simplicity for easier ownership by the masses. The Porsche Cayenne is second only because of how massive the luxury SUV space is now for the price. You can be anybody and afford a Porsche now. It also opened the market for other luxury brands to throw their offerings into the ring at ridiculously low prices, especially on the used market. Even my parents drive a Audi SQ5 now and they’ve never owned a luxury product.
I'd argue the 5th should be the Ford Maverick. Affordable, unibody, re-making the baby truck segment, excellent engineering and features for the price, weird torque vectoring springs on the FWD models (same as the Fiesta ST).
How about smart car? Or maybe Toyota Yaris GR if you want something related to motorsports. The new Mini was also a car that transcended class (in the truest British sense)
Thought of another which truthfully does little in terms of advancement, but it forced other players in the segment to get the “shit” together. The R35 GT-R. Porsche literally revamped the 911 turbo, created a GT2 code named after the lap time, and refocused aspects of their GT program to beat that car. The transaxle AWD system was a first (not sure about that one), and when the car debuted it cost less than anything from Europe remotely fast enough to not immediately see the tail lights.
Very surprised that they did not list R35 gtr. A super car for $90 that was comfortable enough to drive every day and awd. It changed everything. It made the LFA obsolete before it ever went on sale.
We could argue that BAC with the Mono made the sensation to drive a F1 car on the roads accessible to the masses and it's quite advanced apart from the engine.
The Infiniti fx35 and 45 in 2003 was the first crossover that truly drove like a sport sedan. People forget about that car because they were rare but it was a m35/45 on stilts and the design was sooo far ahead of its time
The most innovative product after the 190E is by far the Toyota Prius. The Hybrid Synergy Drive is an incredible departure from traditional power transmission and gearing. An electro mechanical marvel. It is just incredible how it works. Such an incredibly ballsy move for a traditional company like Toyota. The insight was completely traditional with an inline electric motor. You should probably do an episode on how it works and how everyone has adopted it 20 years later. Love it or hate it, you have to give them credit for changing the entire landscape. How about Land Rover with their 4wd and ABS integration.
Mk IV Golf/ Bora. Interior of an Audi. Overengineered. Origin of ISOFIX. Will probably stay on the roads far longer than its immediate successor. More expensive than rivals but sold extremely well. Timeless design.
If I bought a modern day 190E, it'd be a Giulia. The regular has similar aspirations, nice comfy 4 cylinder with more performance than expected, great ride handling characteristics, beats the segment in chassis rigidity and weight. Amazing little car, and the QF is gorgeous and has racing pedigree. Model 3 is trash compared.
Jeep XJ Cherokee and ZJ Grand Cherokee. Not a step anyone really wanted vehicles to take but really paved the way for the modern crossover. Unibody SUVs with actual offroad ability and car-like daily livability, before the Range Rover went unibody. Some reviewers drive the ZJ and 4.0 equipped XJs and say that they still feel as good as or better than midsize or compact crossovers.
I was screaming NSX the whole time, new market for honda, changed the sports car forever and had an innovative engine and chassis, it was the 190 of sports cars. Lexus is300 was a copy paste of the 190 formula 15 years later, it wasnt innovative but like the 190 it was a smaller s class or ls400 and brought that level of luxury to the masses. Mk7 Golf because it brought top level quality to the masses as well. All of these are also beautiful cars with a bit of motorsport history.
To go with the death of the Rover episode idea you could make another about Holden(Ford Australia) my 5 Bugatti Veyron, Hyundai i30 N, LFA, Model 3 and the Honda N-Box but damn this question is hard
LFA, NSX, CT6, BMW valvetronic, had some technological innovation I felt. LFA with V10, CF chassis, NSX, Aluminum chassis and VTEC, and CT6 with chassis construction in the rear which was a aluminum casting. BMW removed the throttle body.
Great list! The Cayenne feels notable because it provided a playbook that many small, niche brands have since used. Top sellers like Urus, Cullinan, and Bentayga (and probably the Purosangue and Eletre) feel directly inspired by the Cayenne. One car I would have considered adding is the Ferrari 355 F1 for introducing paddle-shifters as a new form of interacting with the car. With the direct lineage to F1 racing, genuine performance advantages, and further popularization in the form of BMW’s SMG and Lamborghini’s E-gear, it’s taken over the sports car world as now the (nearly) exclusive choice for shifting gears. Not sure if it moved cars into new markets but it seems like it grew the sports car (and definitely hyper car) markets for making those cars more accessible.
Another great episode! On the subject of Mazda, the Skyactiv X engine (partial compression ignition gas/electronic supercharger) definitely deserves a mention. A 2.0 mazda3 it checks the boxes of technical innovation, does a good job of bringing luxury to the masses, looks great and its a small, nice driving car. Aside from the engine, nothing groundbreaking and its not even an engine they offer in north America. I also dont think it quite fits the question as well as the model 3 or LS 400.
When I was a kid my friends dad had the 190 E AMG. I rode in it daily as we car pooled to school. It was a totally different car than my dad's early 90's Cadillac which was huge and slow.
Derek’s knowledge of cars and associations is absolutely amazing!
If only his knowledge of clapping was the same.
He’s 86.
He's 90+ mind you @@TML34
Not really surprising considering his advanced age
Jason, the American car that was a transportation paradigm shift sits in your driveway. The Chrysler minivan.
Yeah, but it’s not sporty or luxurious or a gadgetbahn.
His van gynah represenents a paradigm shift in transportation.
He keeps his van gynah in his driveway.
Yep, Jason is right, this shit is amusing.
Also, you are right and I can’t see how they missed it, the Chrysler minivan redefined the american car in the 90s and early 00s.
Wasn’t the Nissan Prairie first? And the Renault Espace was the best of the three for *years*? But I am biased, had Espaces around me since late 80s
So much this. I would also add the Explorer.
@@ramdynebix the v10 espace was revolutionary for racing minivans!
The Prius actually does have a motorsports background!
From 2012 to 2022 the Prius was campaigned by Japanese racing team apr in the Super GT series in the GT300 class (along other original GT300 cars as well as GT3-class cars). The Prius GTs were developed with Toyota's input, and Toyota SPECIFICALLY required that the hybrid system use road-going components, which made the car significantly heavier than the other hybrid GT300 car in 2012, the CR-Z, which had a purpose-built racing hybrid system (yes, the Honda CR-Z that Jake has). That one was withdrawn after 2015.
There were two versions of the Prius campaigned: the first generation Prius apr GT (based on the Gen 3-4 Prius) from 2012 to 2019, and the second generation GR Sport Prius PHV (based on the Gen 4 Prius PHV Sport) from 2019 until 2022.
The first generation Prius was mid-engined RWD (3.4L RV8KLM V8 engine, from Toyota customer prototype racing such as the Rebellion R-One) with a hybrid system derived from the road-going car's Hybrid Synergy Drive and mounted in the passenger seat. This version of the Prius was the most successful, winning 4 races in 56 entries and multiple podiums, and placing 2nd in the standings in 2016 and 3rd in 2015 and 2018.
2016 sees two Priuses fielded by apr with two separate systems: one car used lithium ion batteries, and the other used capacitors. The capacitor car was the one that achieved second in the standings. Interesting note: because of Japanese legislation lithium-ion batteries couldn't be legally exported, so for the early years of the Prius program when Super GT raced overseas (in Thailand and Malaysia), the Priuses had to run with the hybrid system disabled.
The second generation Prius was front-engined, RWD. Super GT's rules changed this year stipulating that GT300 vehicles must have the engine in the same location as the production vehicle, which ruled out the previous mid-engined Prius GT. This version of the Prius uses the same hybrid system, but swaps the 3.4L V8 for a production-based 5.4L 2UR-GSE V8 engine located in the front.
This second gen Prius was less successful because both apr and Toyota had very little experience trying to make a front-engined hybrid race car work (all but the very first hybrid race cars, a Lexus GS450h and a Toyota Supra, had been mid-engined). They scored one win in 2021, and the Prius was retired after 2022, replaced by a Lexus LC500h, which uses the same hybrid system.
Wow. The more you know
But would that be considered a racing background more than a decade after the concept came out and that racing introduced after the fact on the 3rd and later generations?
I don't want to downplay your to me very interesting knowledge. But I am, because racing competition was an afterthought. On the 190 it was all in and resulted in a hardcore street version.
I find it an unfair comparison. But I'm here to get my mind changed.
TIL the apr Priuses used a derivative of the roadgoing Prius's electric drivetrain components. Still, I'm not fully convinced.
The 190E's racing activities hold as much significance as they do with regards to the car's history because it raced in the Group A era of DTM. Group A was more permissive when it came to mods than Group N (hence the DTM cars pushing 10K rpm) but was still resolutely a production-based racing class. The point of Group A was always that, underneath all of the mods the race teams did to the race cars, they were effectively the same cars you could buy off the showroom floor. That's why 190E 2.5-16 Evo IIs have those garish rear wings and flared arches - AMG needed a better starting point from which to build the race cars.
Toyota never made a mid-engined Prius with a performance-oriented hybrid drivetrain, inboard suspension, and an ex-LMP1 V8 under the hood. As novel and hilarious as apr's Priuses were, they were barely Priuses at all by the time apr was done cutting them up and fabricating custom parts for them (including the custom front and rear subframes).
hilarious. saying the Prius has motorsport background, is no more than saying the 200+mph Camry Nascar and the Camry your grandma drives is nearly identical.
Please do an episode on Bosh at some point. So much innovation that gets credited to manufacturers seems to come from them.
I love how Jason raves about the startups totally ignoring the fact that 190E’s quality and durability cemented the reputation, which new companies still struggle with a lot.
EVs have less maintenance requirement, less parts to break, and are more reliable compared to internal combustion powered vehicles ... so yea, they check that box too.
@@TheLastMoccasinare you parroting marketing materials or have you borne that truth out over hundreds of thousands of miles of EV ownership?
@@aygwm .....let's just say, I know the industry from the inside 😉
@@TheLastMoccasinif you check official running costs and maintenance from big fleets, you'll find the exact opposite of what you believe to be the truth.
@@eugenux Please provide specifics... we are waiting. Meanwhile EV sales just keep increasing for some odd reason 🤔
Not to pander to something we all you know both of you are fond of, but the MK7 Golf I think may be looked back upon like the the W201 190E. Hear me out:
The Golf MK7 debuted as a 2013-2015 model year vehicle (depending on your market). The vehicle was a major step forward for materials, fit & finish quality, performance & safety/features in that class and price point. Just look at any competitor from that model year. Mainly plastic-fantastic, cheap & cheerful transportation.
Here in North America, you had a wonderful standard 1.8TSI engine that punched WAY above its weight in terms of power, yet was actually incredibly efficient. Top-Notch passenger crash-safety. You had the availability of advanced driver assistance features, adaptive front lighting, panoramic moonroof, full leather sport seats, true premium audio, all of which were very rare features in this class & price point (Mazda being the only other to dabble in premium/small at that price, at least in North America). And nobody combined these all in one car, that also drove so well, at that price.
The driving experience was/is so much more "Premium" than anything else in the class, and drove line an Audi, for $20K. I think this is a big part of how I relate these two vehicles. You had a vehicle that it was evident the money went into the platform, the same way it would for the big VW/Audi cars, but it was scaled down to a "masses" price & size (too bad Americans don't like wagons & hatches... I single-handedly blame you for why we can't have Golfs up here in Canada anymore haha). The interior, in addition to being beautifully crafted, was also ergonomically perfect.
This was a pre-Diesel Gate car (development), and I do not think that we will ever see that level of attention to detail & investment in a really great small car from VW AG again. Look at any of their recent interiors, drivetrains, pricing, etc., and you can see that there has been a change.
The fact that the MK7 Golf grew to spawn an entire generation of great sporty/enthusiast models above the regular models, and I think it has a great amount of importance in that realm as well. Not to mention the "bones" underpin a wildly vast amount of other corporate models (and the ENTIRETY of the current USA/CAN ICE lineup), and the impact stretches even further. The technical aspects & innovations of the car last to this day.
I agree with the list you came up with in technicality, but I think the MK7 Golf should be on the list in a more spiritual sense.
Very well said, I was thinking about the Golf too.
Love my 2017 e-Golf and 2015 TDi Sportwagen.
Re-read your whole statement and think “Mk5 Golf/Jetta/GTI/GLI”
@@artsohc I genuinely thought about that, especially on the interior refinement front, and how good the GTI/GLI was. But the cars here were never available with any of the high-end options, particularly the Golfs, the sole gas engine choice was a 2.5L lump that was not especially refined, powerful, or economical, they began to disintegrate the moment they drove off the lot, and the 2.0T is notorious for about a thousand different issues. At the other end of the spectrum, I do not believe the MK5 R had near the effect on the enthusiast market as the MK7 R did either. All in all, I stand by my selection haha
@@earlmacmullin4688that’s fair. But I would point out the Mk5 GTI/GLI brought the dual clutch transmission to the masses, a real achievement.
One often overlooked yet extremely innovative car was the '82 Nissan Prairie, later sold as the Multi and Stanza Wagon in North America. This was the first car we would classify as a minivan, with dual sliding doors that latch to the chassis (with no physical B pillar) seating up to 8 passengers, having unibody construction, and using a front wheel drive transverse layout. Later models could be optioned with 4wd. The engines on offer weren't too innovative, with one coming with twin plug ignition to meet North American emissions standards. The rear suspension used a torsion bar to keep the load floor low, as designs for the initial design concept visualized a wide variety of applications for the Prairie, from emergency vehicles to cargo vans, airport shuttles to taxis. The design was heavily inspired by an Italian design concept, the Lancia Megagamma, designed by Giorgetto Giugiaro. That concept later went on to inspire Mitsubishi's Chariot, but was a major influence for Nissan's designers, as noted in (I can't remember what issue) Car Styling Quarterly. So if you want to talk a car that changed the automotive landscape, there you go. It was innovative, came after the 190e, inspired a generation of car designs, and has Italian design roots.
In one of Gordon Murray’s T.33 debut interviews (can’t remember with who), the interviewer asked Gordon who he admired most of the modern carmakers. Gordon responded Mazda.
If your a Mazda guy, chances are you’re also a car guy
The Honda NSX has to be part of this. New market for Honda, kinda democratized the sports car, brought reliability and comfort to future cars, genuine world beating performance for its time.
I don't think the NSX democratized the sports car considering how expensive it was new, that could be the original NA Miata.
A car that sold in millions, did everything right (like the LS400) and made zee Germans take up notice while creating the British sports car that never was and revived a whole segment that created the Boxster, SLK, TT, S2000 and so on. It created the sports-car renaissance of the 90s!
@@PetrospectI’d argue it did because it removed the huge barrier of reliability and upkeep. I have been in positions where I could afford the sticker price of a nice car but was unwilling/afraid to take on the maintenance costs that came afterwards.
@@artsohc That is fair but it didn't come first nor did it add anything particularly new to the idea of a sportscar/supercar which is why I don’t think (though notable) isn’t a 190E sort of deal for me!
Fair point though, has to be noted.
That's the biggest contribution Japan in general had to the car industry IMO.
I believe it was also the first production car made primarily of aluminum
@@Petrospect100%, NA mx5 for sure.
You were so close! Honda Insight is the first hybrid and the first high tech car for fuel efficiency. It’s a VW XL1 for the common man.
Maybe sold in the U.S., but the Prius was already out in 1997 to the Insight's 1999. Besides that, never as the Insight of any generation garnered the visibility/sales of the Prius, especially after the second generation Prius that Honda decided to mimic the second time around. Insight might have had bigger numbers, but it came at the cost of practicality. The sales were never anywhere close to the Toyota, and the first gen Insight was far more the hypermiler wet-dream than an everymans commuter. The reality is, the common man needs a back seat sometimes.
I completely agree that Prius is the one that took over the world, but it wasn’t revolutionary in any way. The insight was an all aluminum chassis, bespoke lightweight transmission, lean burning engine with a special catalytic converter. It’s a showcase of technology for what efficiency looks like, which is quite revolutionary. The only purpose built efficiency cars since have been the Opel Ecospeedster and the VW XL1.
Closest new car in SIZE to the MB 190 I could find is the Nissan Versa...Shorter wheelbase, but 3" LONGER than the Benz. And about the same curb weight. The 190 was truly an amazing car for its time. Nobody packs as many of the MB qualities and virtues in this compact of a package today.
First generation Versa hatch for sure did some amazing stuff for what it was versus the competition packaging wise, but the follow up put it back a notch (aside from the roomy back seat). I'd still generally recommend the Fit overall to anyone, for the magic back seat combined with driving dynamics combination.
The follow-up Versa was absolute bargain basement first and foremost, with some of the most flimsy, cheap plastic in the class, even against prior generations of subcompacts (though arguably "utilitarian"). The first gen, in higher trim had amazing soft touch armrests, huge space, good NVH control, that massive 1.8L (albeit not a powerhouse for the time), a six-speed (but by no means were those cars dynamic, but still better than what followed).
One of the big dimensional differences is that newer cars are MUCH wider than car from the 90s and before. The 190E is 66.5" wide. A '24 Impreza is 70" wide, a '24 3 series is 72" wide, and most all American market CUVs (#1 sellers) are all at least 73" wide and some are 75-76" wide. This width is absurd! Better to have a car that is a bit longer and narrower as it is better for road space, maneuverability, aerodynamics etc. I guess if you need a larger middle seat in the second row then the extra width helps. Doors are so thick now too, that packaging efficiency is absolutely terrible. I'll stop rambling now.
Anyways, the 190E is the RIGHT size and I wish 80% of vehicles for sale today were this size.
What about the Mk7 Golf/GTI/R? It was made so well that it made Mercedes delay the W205 (the W201 successor) by a year. The Mk7 democratized a $50,000 car for half price, and that could make it a 190E successor in terms of build quality, ride and NVH in some ways… maybe also in terms of the MQB platform being so modular that a lot of other companies have adopted that method for platforms.
I've got a Mk7 Sportscombi GT with over 100k miles on it, and I love it, but it is more evolutionary than revolutionary.
MK7 is gonna be an evergreen. It just does it all.
I second this, the MQB platform underpins everything from the sub compact Polo to the three row SUV Atlas. A remarkable feat of engineering. I own a MK7 R (selling soon after 5.5 years of ownership) and I feel comfortable asserting that it is the most complete car the sub $50k market has ever had. I cross shopped the entire competitive market (STI, Focus RS, CTR) and the Mk7 R is as fast or faster than any of them, almost as good to drive (better IMO than the STI) but absolutely stomps them in every other way that matters in a daily, NVH (5-< dB queiter at highway speeds), practicality, efficiency (my R gets about 31 mpg which is like 8 more than an STI or Focus RS). I just wish they had sold the estate version in the US.
I'm amazed Jason didn't mention the Elise, innovation in chassis design for maximum weight saving, in a relatively affordable package that ended up being a major success for Lotus
It wasn't mainstream enough to be compared to cars like the 190e. It was innovative, but little to none of its construction was ever applied to a conventional passenger car.
You could say the same of the Alfa Romeo 4C and the carbon tub chassis.
Not even the first Lotus to do that.
@@shingoose6197 Not true. Elise was the first car with bonded aluminium structure. Many mainstream cars use this technology today, just not for the whole chassis.
@@dadogacesa3877 could you provide some examples?
The editing during the exchange about the Jeep Cherokee at 33:35 is perfect. I would argue that the second generation of Prius more than the 1st gen because it's just so iconic and doesn't just look like a Yaris with a battery pack.
❤ the Carmudgeon Podcast.
The original Ford Taurus? I’m always hearing about what a big deal it was when it came out, with its aerodynamic shape and huge sales. It came out 2 years after the Mercedes
This ☝️
While I agree (and since Jason even did one of his stories of the SHO), the Taurus shook the market here, not globally like the 190. The aerodynamic treatment was one of the key factors, and made other American car manufacturers shift. After all, we're talking about a global shift here, as far as I'm concerned (which, the Prius did come first, but was sold after the Insight in the U.S. which is where that confusion may have come from).
SHO fastest sedan under $50k for a long time
I genuinely laughed out loud when Derek said that he actually done a case study on innovation risk taking regarding the Prius, Jason immediately knew he couldn't argue it 😂
I was thinking the first generation of the Aluminum/Ecoboost F-150's. Those choices were pretty controversial at the time, but it brought "modern" features to one of the best selling vehicles in the world.
I'd like to offer the Mark IV Vw Golf. Technical innovations: DSG Gearbox, or CVT, 4speed automatic, 5 or 6 speed manual fully zinc coated body, 4Motion as well as a raft of interesting engines 1.8T 5valve, 1.9TDI Pumpe-Düse, FSI (Direct injection) R32, VR 5 etc.
Luxurious Interior compared to basically everything in it's class at it's time, very safe with head airbags, esp as standard, ebv as well as msr, xenon headlights heated mirrors and windscreen washers, sat nav, climate control, a very complex safety steering rack, etc. It also got a large part of eastern europe on wheels especially the 1.9Tdi with it's high tuning potential, fuel economy and reliability. The 1.8T engine is still an important stepping stone for young people that are into modifying cars. It basically created the premium hatchback segment which is a very important market segment here in Europe. And finally it got Volkswagen back a reputation for making quality cars which was lost under Lopez ruthless cost cutting. I personally think it looks good and was very practical. The R32 also represents a nice parallel to the 2.3 16 and derivatives.
The jump from the mk3 to the mk4 was such a quantum leap that they messed a lot of things up.
After 3 to 4 the jump to 5 was such a let down. A little like 7 to 8 when looking at 6 to 7.
The originsl Mercedes A-Class. It opened up a new lower market sector for Mercedes, sold well and was highly (get it) innovative. It wasn't pretty, nor very sporty, but it started the premium high seating position segment in europe, that has been very popular (especially with seniors) ever since, even it has optics wise (!) shifted over to SUVs.
Nothing about the original A-Class is premium. They didn't even bother lining up the design of the door panels to the dash! Though I love the packaging and simplicity of them, I'd say it's the least luxurious Mercedes by far.
It did have some technical innovations, namely putting the engine partly under the floor and this newfound ability to roll over
Cayenne call killed it, sat there shaking my head yes
Same with LS400. Had thought of it earlier before they relaxed the rules to cars that pioneered a new class or gave innovations to the masses, but then totally forgot about it.
How about the Honda Fit? A bit on the lower end for sure but it was pretty impressive in terms of build quality, chassis design, dynamics, and safety for something of that size
Oh and it's got its own racing series (I believe?) so there's some motorsport in there too
Criminally underrated car.
Well... TBH Subaru was 8 years before Audi with their 4WD in road cars. Also rally Quattro debuted half a year after Leone 4WD participated in Safari rally.
It took them far longer than I'd thought they would to get to Prius. It's the enduring symbol of vehicle efficiency and paved the way to EVs even if Toyota themselves are lagging behind right now. Econoboxes weren't a new thing, but the Prius and the rest of Toyota's hybrids that followed remarkably changed how we view cars and also how manufacturers view cars. The egg-shaped aero SUVs and Teslas of today can trace their roots to the Insight and Prius. Coupling an electric motor to an ICE powertrain led to things like PHEVs, regenerative braking in passenger cars, and performance hybrids like the Corvette E-ray, all these hybrid exec sedans, the 2nd NSX, and even Formula 1.
I think the mini-van needs to be on the list. Caravan probably. Started a whole class that has been huge for families for decades.
GR Yaris/Corlla, innovative AWD system, built for motorsport but ended up not being able to compete in the motorsport it was developed for, moved the brand into a market it was not traditionally known for, made it's most direct competitor (arguably WRX/Sadly departed STI), expensive but extremely reasonable for what you get. I think the GR Yaris/Corolla deserves to at least be part of the competition.
The Tesla model 3 is the best answer but let me suggest these just for fun:
C8 corvette: democratizing big power MR configuration
GR Yaris: sufisticated AWD and a racy 3 cylinder to smaller car segment
BMW i8: didn't make a splash but a uniquely designed hybrid sports car, won performance car of the year and world green car award
I'm astonished no one else has mentioned the i8. It was received badly by the press and customers, so it sold badly. But the technology behind it was/is amazing. And some of the technology (carbon tub) was used on the i3. I think both cars were too far ahead of their time... Both are now an almost 15 y/o design and still look fresh and modern.
I was missing you guys... and here you are!!
1992 Camry (wagon) gang checking in. I bought this thing because I was bored during Covid and the level of quality and sustained usability is astounding even 30 years on.
I wish you could still pick them up on every corner for a couple of thousanbd bucks..
Volvo 850R - First side impact airbags. Passive rear wheel steering. Motorsports (BTCC). New market for sporty wagon in the US. Wheel arches are... .blockular.
Kind of a stretch, but the C8 Corvette certainly democratized an exotic format in the US market. Also the King Ranch F150 brought very high end interior, and relative car-like driving experience to farmers and construction contractors.
I absolutely cannot believe that the NA Miata is not on this list. This has to be the first answer to this question as it brought an entire market segment (Japanese lightweight convertible) and brought back the idea of the British sports car while revolutionizing it to be used by the masses, everyday. If I had to pick another one, I think the R35 GTR could also fit on this list.
I’m onto the “most 190E since the 190E” and before I hear the boys, my thoughts on cars that brought innovation to the marketplace and a new/luxury experience to a segment that didn’t have it/exist before….
Acura NSX
Lexus LS400
Mk5 GTI/GLI
Model S
Ok, got to the part where you asked for my reasoning…
NSX brought a reliable experience to the super car world forcing other brands to up their game. Brought VTEC too yo.
LS400 brought everything S-Class to the market with added reliability and affordability with arguably improved NVH. And some of the coolest gauges.
Model S cause innovation of the electric car, self drive, over-air updates, etc etc.
Mk5 GTI/GLI is a selfish choice. My wife had a Mk4 Jetta and “traded up” for a 2004 Audi A4. I then got a 2006 GTI and she swore it was nicer inside than her A4. She traded her A4 for a GLI. I think the Mk5 reinvigorated the hot hatch for the USA and it brought the technical innovation of DSG to the masses.
Why not the 986 Boxster? It brought a lot of what everyone loved about Porsche downmarket and kind of made its own segment.
This and the NA miata. Jason and Derek immediately swatted it away for not having any technical innovation but it brought the sports car experience to so many more people that I think it's a really important car and a contender.
Sort of a Hail Mary that worked out.
The Boxster didn’t really move Porsche though the 914 and 924/44/68 all existed before and in the same market space as the Boxster what the Boxster did was capitalise on that space like none of the others had
I haven't watched yet, and I'm fully expecting to hear about the Citroën DS. And on that note Citroën deserves an entire episode.
They will get right on that one... right after the Ferdinand Piech piece.
@DuvJones 🤣 I know@ come on guys we need the piechepisode already. Jason you got no excuse you just had covid you should have written it then!
fisker tires are suppedly partially natural rubber to minimize chemical toxicity of tire wear dust with minimum grip loss by placing rubber in specific places
We did a Citroën episode already
@@Dtamscott doh' I need to go re-watch!
There are a few that come to mind that fall a bit short for one reason or another, like the series 1 Elise and both NSX generations for sports cars, and the w168 Mercedes A-Class, BMW i3 and original Smart Fortwo for compact cars. But for me the most noteworthy for the fifth spot are the:
-aw10 MR2 for democratizing the mid engine sports car while also not being an unreliable italian car.
-NA MX-5 for being the most impactful sports car of the past 30 years, not much needs to be said about it.
-R32/R35 Nissan GT-R for being an astounding technical tour de force for their respective time periods (a lot of it still being very impressive to this day) and being super car beaters for a fraction of the cost, and still retaining a bit of practicality and usability while carrying on its stride a legendary motorsports legacy.
And finally the 2 that, in my opinion, fit the spirit of the 190 the most:
-Audi A2 for being a wonder of packaging engineering, fitting old school Audi build quality, interior space and reliability into a supermini segment car which has sadly never been replicated since. It was the second production car that Audi built on their aluminium space frame technology and I think the second mass-produced car that was mostly made out of aluminium overall (don't quote me on that) after the A8. Its extremely light, extremely aerodynamic and fit with extremely efficient engines, the diesels being the most noteworthy, all for the purpose of maximum fuel economy (the 1.2 "3L" version was able to achieve under 3L/100km), while still being a comfortable and refined city and highway cruiser. A truly Piëchian "money is no object" engineering exercise built for a very specific purpose.
-MK1 Ford Focus for being a complete revolution of the affordable compact hatchback segment, it was the first of its class that featured rear multi-link suspension which resulted in a vehicle that was not only a very good day-to-day car, but also a great driver's car (particularly in ST/SVT and RS guises) while also not compromising on interior space. All of this, combined with its styling that was unlike anything else on the road at the time, and its very successful motorsports presence in the WRC, turned it into one of Ford of Europe's best selling cars of all time.
Mk1 Focus is a great shoutout! To somehow bring this back to Mazda which the boys mentioned, they took the Focus' rear "control blade" multi-link suspension, added double wishbones in the front and sold it as a 6 in its first generation. I wouldn't go so far as to say it's 190E-ish, but they did sell many and the Mazdaspeed variant brought Haldex AWD and an early example of a direct injected turbo engine into the mix
Nissan GTR:
1. Motorsport
2. Engineering and production like no other before (at this pricepoint)
3. Democratized faceripping hypercar performance at sportcar price.
4. Pivoted inthusiast car industry to 0-60 and skid pad Gs war.
Man, if I had just scrolled a little farther, I wouldn't have typed out my comment on how the GTR changed sports cars for the worse. I cannot agree with this post any more!
Acura Legend belongs on the list. Honda Prelude had four wheel steering. Acura NSX made supercar technology and handling attainable for half the cost of a Ferrari. just a few suggestions. Dodge created a new class of vehicle with the Caravan.
Caravan for sure. More so than Cayenne.
First gen NSX for sure!
First gen NSX for sure!
First gen NSX for sure!
I’m surprised the Legend wasn’t mentioned as well.
I’m only a couple minutes in, but my vote for most 190E is likely the Model 3 Performance. Though I think a reiteration of the 3 with the innovations from the CyberTruck would be more accurate.
@@Spooly_If society truly collapsed the Model 3 would be far easier to keep running than any ICE vehicle of any kind. Making electricity is easy, finding and refining petrol or diesel, not so much.
AMC Eagle. I believe it was the first mass-market AWD sedan/wagon (I would argue that it created the market segment, long before Subaru). Low price point. Motorsport pedigree (SCCA rally). It was an AWD crossover 20 years before it's time. It was completely unlike anything else at the time. No crazy new tech, but it brought AWD compact cars to the masses.
Grand Cherokee "ZJ". in 1993, SUVs were typically based on pickup trucks, including the leaf spring suspension and ladder frame. The ZJ was the first with unibody construction, coil spring suspension, and 4-wheel antilock disk brakes. It was the first mass-market SUV with actual sporting pretense AND a comfortable ride. Its standard 6-cylinder was as powerful as most V8s of the time. The design was by Larry Shinoda, and Giorgetto Giugiaro had also consulted on it. It was "sporty", stylish, and upmarket at a time when other SUVs were utilitarian boxes.
It’s really the Model 3 in terms of “game changing”. Hurts to say as a petrol head getting priced out of the market. I’m increasingly interested in motorcycles. Bought a beginner bike last year and I’m obsessed.
In terms of impact, sure. But the 190 can't be ignored in terms of its long term legacy, which is something no new EV is going to be able to do given current battery tech.
@@Briggsian yep, their going to be dumpster garbage in 5 to 10 years.
I also 2nd the moto ideea...as fun and enthusiast cars are simply non-existent at affordable price points.
Tesla is the drag race champ. My downtown, public transport friends know this. I'm 32 and no one my age knows what a 190E is. Again, I'd rather have my old 2008 base model manual Civic than a new Elantra. But the avg consumer is pop culture sponge
@@Briggsian
As a father of two young kids, motorcycles are too dangerous. This puts me firmly in the beater Miata category.
Guinely this is an interesting episode. Would be great to have a redux of it after you had a chance to think more about it
1) original Ford Explorer
2) original Prius
3) GM super cruise
4) GM magRide
5) original Lexus LS
6) Tesla model S
7) Jaguar I-PACE - first luxury EV / Tesla competitor
Can’t believe they did not instantly think of the Pontiac Aztek. I mean…you could camp in it with the tent option. Brilliance!
😂😂😂
Love it or hate it, the Aztek did change the automotive landscape. In the same breath I'll mention the Fiat Multipla as having a similar story
In what way did any of those do so?
@@Forke13 many of the current crossovers are unwittingly borrowing many ideas from the Aztek. The form factor, the 'we have nothing else to market this on' features like camping gear, the aesthetic-only plastic cladding, the split headlights that make you scratch your head, the practicality over style... Aztek was ahead of its time
@@YouRedix I don't know, man... There are Nissan, Peugeot (actually all the french), Dacia, Subaru and so on with similarly hideous cars before and after. Plastic cars also are all over the place for 40+ years, even the first gen Mercedes A Class as a standout example. I don't see where aztec did anything that stuck because of it or was even new in the first place.
Integral Link joke was perfect 24:44
Great show How about the VW Golf MKIV R32. Yes it was a special version but it shape what many hatchbacks and crossover are today. Really nice interior, good performance (VR6 3.2 and DCT) and the Haldex AWD system. It was cool looking and with sales number exceeding the demand VW planed
Also the BMW E32 that changes Mercedes launch date of the W140. It was the first German car with a V12, first car with traction control, adaptive suspension, xenon ligths, parking sensors and high lines version were also crazy spec. Also it used ZF 5 speed transmission and it was big car that was sporty to drive.
Not sure if it was mentioned but the R32 Nissan Skyline GT-R comes to mind. It had many innovations used in one place atessa/4wd/twin turbo torque split etc not all Nissan ideas but certainly brought together for the first time. It offered a level of performance that was almost absurd for the late 80s and it did it at a much more affordable price range than any of the European equivalents. And of course the motorsports side is unbelievable. It changed what people thought they could get in performance over night. R32 gtr
The GT-R Skyline R32, R33 and R34 were good, very good, but not purists cars. The 190 was simpler in the driver aids sense. The more raw, yet balanced and tuned a car is, the more pure it is. The 3 R's were not like the very first Skyline GT-R, Hakosuka - that one was pure.
What about VW Phaeton. It’s definitely not a mass market car, but it brought essentially a Bentley to a lower price bracket and is engineered to an incredibly high extreme. I’m just not sure if the price point disqualifies it.
Well, the 190E is was also considered extremely expensive for its class, so I'd say the comparison is pretty apt.
It does. It was a financial catastrophe :D
One of the few negative examples of THAT Volkswagen era.
Impressive car, though.
The closest I can think of is the E55 AMG, but not only are those cars also getting more expensive ($15k-$30k), they were V8s and never came in a Manual. You'll have to do a Manual Transmission swap.
R35 GTR - it was the first modern car that pushed crazy magazine numbers mainstream with technology while not providing much, if any, driving enjoyment. I believe the current state of the modern enthusiast cars can be directly traced to the R35.
This is the answer for a "performance" car for the list.
It changed the supercar market and made "supercar" stuff available to the masses.
Dual clutch, AWD, Forced induction and legitimate top end performance.
I'd argue the C6Z democratized supercar performance cheaper/earlier, but it is really just a widebody bored out C5Z. The C6Z gave us cheap "old world" supercar performance. The R35 moved "supercar" into the uncompromising automatic/computer aided track time above all else, weight be damned world it still resides in.
I would very much argue, at least for the Fast & Furious / Need for Speed kids, the R35 was our 190e moment
@@lakeelmpine5351 Disagree. The R35 didn't bring much to the masses, it was instead a Japanese take on current technology but optimized. It was certainly a high tech, advanced car. But it didn't do anything significant in terms of the packaging layout, design... It's a significant car to the world of high performance, fast cars. But to the masses? It's not on the level of influence the 190e was on.
Porsche Cayman? Mid engine for the masses ( of course Fiat X19 and Toyota MR2 did that too); racing involvement; slightly democratized Porsche by being cheaper than a 911; arguably the world's best sportscar when you consider the holistic amalgamation of price/handling/looks/build quality/holding its value/the strength of the PCA and the numerous Porsche themed events one can participate in (PCA local tours and events, Treffens, Parades, Werks, Rennsports Reunions...)
Fiat X19 - rotted away from the second the welds cooled
Boxster was the model that did all this. Cayman just turned Boxster into a coupe.
My picks:
Miata - it proved you can make affordable sports car and I believe that based on its success we were experiencing tons of affordable sports models coming from Japan and Europe in 90s/00s.
Nissan Quashai - started small crossover class, democratized SUVs for ppl, and now thanks to its success - this type of car is most popular worldwide and some brands are making nothing but SUVs.
Audi A2 or Smart - one is based on a technology of a flagship Audi A8, but had an interior like A4 from those times. It is a small car, thats feels like a premium car 2 sizes bigger. Small premium car idea. Smart is an example of a first micro car created from a scratch and around this idea, that was done by a huge brand. Proved that you can pack a lot into this space and still make it very very safe in case of an accidents. Many brands followed in europe with idea of making even smaller cars and in a future where cities will become more cramped - we gonna go back to the Smart idea of cars.
Nissan GT-R - hyper car performance for a sports car money. Before tesla ppl were taking reaction videos from GT-Rs. Performance was mind-bending and nowadays most of a high performance cars is using same tricks: launch control + powerful turbocharged engine + a lot of technology to provide maximum of a traction in any moment.
The Qashqai is not even close to the first small crossover, it was beat to the market by Rav4 (1994), Forester (1997), CR-V (1997), and Escape (2000), several more came in the next few years before Qashqai finally showed up in 2006.
Ford Raptor - Created the genre of an "extreme Off Road" trim level with associated re-engineering and equipment upgrades to take an existing platform (F150 and consequently EVERY SUV, truck and even most Subarus) upmarket and into a more desirable niche.
Chevrolet Volt - Shaped the entire movement towards electrified automobiles by spurring battery tech engineering and the associated software and hardware needs required to make it feasible. Made the concept of "driving a giant battery around" and public charging socially acceptable and "mundane".
The E90 335i is what I’ve always thought of as the modern 190E. With a starting MSRP just under $40k, it brought loads of new things to its segment of entry-level compact executive car:
- a huge leap in performance to the non-performance trim (non-M/S/AMG) compact executive car category with the N54/55 straight 6 turbo connected to optional AWD and a manual transmission
- the first true infotainment to that entry level executive car segment with iDrive
- Heavy use of aluminum in the suspension components, previously reserved for 5-series and above
- BMW’s first ever retractable hardtop
- The ability to build the car to your needs at the mechanical configuration level. By the end of that gen, you could get a 335i in coupe, sedan, hardtop convertible or wagon, choice of AT/DCT/MT, and the option for RWD or AWD. The innovation there is that not only did they offer a “spicy” trim level with loads of power without going up to an M car, but they allowed you to spec a 335i into any configuration available for the lower trim 3 series. Typically a budget performance trim model had been limited in application, offering it in only a manual RWD coupe configuration for example.
Aside from all the “firsts” the 335i brought to its segment, it was also 190E-like in that you got a huge amount of features for that modest price. In 2006 it offered things like Xenon headlights, adaptive suspension, a performance chip tune from the factory, automatic climate control, navigation, heated seats, Bluetooth, iDrive, Keyless entry, auto dimming and auto folding mirrors, and headlight washers.
For 2006, that was an impressive feature set for an entry level model from any manufacturer.
Thinking about it, the 135i and M240i have kept that tradition alive since the e90, stuffing big performance and features into a compact vehicle with excellent build quality for a relatively low/attainable price.
Nearly two decades later, BMW has accidentally democratized speed for young car enthusiasts. Every beginner car guy buys one and tunes it up to at least 500hp😂😂
Just the E9x platform as a whole (the hardtop convertible isn't an E90, that's a sedan code, like E91 is the wagon, E92 is the coupe, etc). 335i was just a small part of the E9x platform, and you're giving it a little too much credit for feature content. A lot of what you listed was already in the E46 that came before it.
Heated seats, Xenon headlights, adaptive headlights, navigation, keyless entry, auto-dimming mirrors, auto climate control, headlight washers-- a lot of that was already available on the E46. I don't even think auto-folding mirrors were a thing on the E9x.... maybe through iDrive? Which, iDrive just helps age the interior technology just like old sat-nav and tape decks (goes for any car, really)... I wouldn't call it a plus on the classic car market someday.
While it made a lot of changes, it was an evolution and nothing more, and in some way started down a negative rabbit hole for BMW and the 3-Series. This is when only the M3 came with an LSD (unless I'm misssing some super rare/expensive dealer option that nobody seems to talk about)-- non-M E9x/E8x's I've heard are open diff) but the E46 I believe had the option on non-M's. The 335i also brought the end of natural aspiration/port injection reliability (though, okay, progress... otherwise we'd still be adjusting carbs and chokes). There are still a lot of N52 engine fans out there, even though it's hard to get good power, it's a solid enough powerplant. A lot of people have been gravitating to the 128i over the 135i for that reason. The second gen Z4 3.0iS was the stop of that in a sporty body. Leaving all of the credit to te 335i, good as they are, doesn't feel like a 190E moment.
Okay the editing at 33:38 really made me laugh. And now you now I'm actually looking at a podcast, I should deserve a medal or something.
Sitting here screaming about the Chevy Volt as you argue Priuses (Prii?). Much like the Prius established the mild hybrid, the Volt proved the small battery EV with an engine onboard for charging and highway use was effective and led to almost every manufacturer now offering a PHEV in their lineup today.
Here’s two:
MK1 Ford Focus - it democratised handling with the rear independent suspension.
I brought new edge styling & even soft touch heater controls.
It did motorsport in the WRC too
New MINI - proved the small premium hatch had a market. Innovated the huge customisation option list. Like the Focus it prioritised handling.
The ford raptor hits most boxes. Besides size. Suspension was revolutionary for a street legal truck. Every truck manufacturer has been playing catch up since it was released. Created the trophy truck for the streets market. And definitely democratized Baja trucks
VW Mk7 golf/gti with the intro of MQB.
The MQB platform changed the way cars are manufactured. It allowed sportier, luxurious qualities to be shared among expensive and cheaper vehicles while sharing the same platform. VW really change what could be done in a ‘small’ car. Not to mention, GTI was the first car to have an electro-mechanical LSD in the front. They really made a Golf for almost everything.. GTI, Golf R, Alltrack, Sportwagen, etc. it’s no coincidence Toyota, Subaru, BMW, and other brands started doing this soon after.
Mk7 produced technical innovations that changed how cars are made, rejuvenated the hot hatch segment when it came out, changed what was possible for a ‘small’ car.. definitely worthy of this list
Nah
2004 MK5 GTI，it basically kicked off the 2.0T direct injected, dual clutch, hatch’s of the world and at the same time offered the best interior quality, NVH, ride quality south of 28K.
IRS as well, and the mk5 Jetta. DSG GLI was an incredible car in 2006. Huge trunk, efficient, great to drive, good engine for a turbo 4. Nothing came close for the money at that time. Not a match for the W201s innovations but great cars.
I feel like the Raptor belongs on this list. Brought about the whole Baja/ pre-running thing. Copied by everyone now. First real performance off-road truck. Incredibly popular. Has the performance history, winning Baja. 5-link suspension was new for trucks (pretty sure?).
If that's the case, the first generation Altima V6 set the entire midsized sedan segment into a power war, the WRX coming to America hopped up sport compacts a bit, etc. The problem here is: Raptor is just a (highly modified) trim of an existing mass-market vehicle that would have existed without it, and will exist when it is extinct.
Likewise, it's not a world-wide shift, merely American (same with that Altima and WRX comparison).
Fair enough, good points
Currently just starting the episode so let's go with Mitsubishi EVO offers a lot of the performance and more with absolutely no luxury.
A Chevy SS / G8 GXP would be considered too large by comparison but by modern day they're similar size to a M3. The ATSV and whatever it's called now would be smaller but not better.
The CTR is the only car that really does the "it's bigger on the inside" which has internal volume similar to a CRV while being a wide body Civic with a hotter engine from an Accord.
Without dropping to two doors it's tricky to have something comparable.
My pick would be the RAV-4 for really being the first to mass market the crossover, the biggest trending segment we live with today.
Mayyyybe first Renault Espace? Complete innovation in packaging and space menagement. Popularised minivans for 30 years
35:12
Jason picking up that DTS accidentally said that an average of a Macan and Cayenne is a "Mayenne", which sounds like "moyenne" (average) in French, made my day.
Chevy volt?
Brought a new hybrid system and refinement to a some what inexpensive package.
A 4 door sloped roof hatchback. Did anyone do that shape well before it? I’m guessing yes but ca not think of it.
Glad I wasn't the only one thinking that - it really introduced so many Americans to the thought of never burning gas again!
Chevy Volt costs as much as $89k to produce. There's nothing innovative about selling a car for half the price it costs to make.
@@Pehz63 engineers make horrible accountants.
Tesla Model 3/Y brought low-maintenance & performance goodness from Model S/Y down to regular-people price range accessibility.
Miata brought Lotus Elise 1st Gen form-factor/dynamics/ethos to the masses (with better robustness & pricing).
Model Y plus Miata/MX-5 = great "two car solution" for reasonable price points & excellent reliability / low maintenance.
Fiat panda series 1 with 4wd 1983. Lancia delta w/ 4wd (1986). Both after 1982 so they count. Both 4wd in small segments, packaging tech innovation, delta in rally, panda was the cheapest 4wd car in Europe during its entire time. Panda made a new segment completely.
The Panda 4x4 must be the first transverse-engined 4WD, I can't think of anything else before it
The BMW Mini's and the Volvo R series deserve some acknowledgement.
My immediate thought was Lexus LS400. Possibly not the most technically original but its quality and refinement at a price nobody else could get near has to get some credit, and even more impressive in hindsight given how long lasting they are.
The other one, which some will scoff at, is the original Mercedes A-Class. High profile boo-boo on launch aside it had true Mercedes innovation behind it. That sandwich platform design meant you could have big-car safety (as the engine hard point would slide underneath in a crash) and big car space (E-Class equivalent) in a platform shorter than a Ford Ka and affordable to average consumers.
Doesn't have W201-style longevity but maybe Prius aside, we're yet to see whether Model 3s, Rivians, Cayennes etc will last as long as a 190E either...
Ok, I'm only a few minutes into the discussion and I don't know where you guys will land, so here's my opinion. The car that most closely matches the 190E's characteristics is the Genesis G70.
Let's see where you two end up on this.
I would argue although it's a bit of a price jump, the Cadillac CT4 V Blackwing is closer. Honorable mention to the much forgotten Audi RS 3, even if the G70 is closer to the 190E than it.
Prelude? First car with 4 wheel steering. Seems like the idea disappeared for a while but is making a comeback
Well, I don't think any car is going to really meet all the criteria you've established here, but there are some cars that stood out to me as having notable similarities. The car that most resembles the 190E spiritually to me is the 5th generation Honda Civic, and the short explanation for that is "because it was a small car that was shockingly better than it needed to be."
Like the 190E, those Civics performed very well aerodynamically. They also had a suspension innovation of their own in democratizing the double wishbone architecture in small, inexpensive, unibody cars. Add to that the advanced and refined VTEC powerplant, which I think was a little more significant that you make it out to be. Sure, other manufacturers were playing with variable cam phasing back then, but it'd be the end of the '90s before you saw them coming up with ways to change valve lift on the fly. They were technically innovative cars in any right, but particularly so for the segment.
Both cars were also built and engineered far better than they needed to be, and in ways that neither company continues to do. That alone is a theme you won't find on many cars of this size segment (though I would argue that the XV10 Camry does fit in here as well -- as a car built to a standard more than a price).
And while the 5th-gen Civic didn't have a special version for homologation, an awful lot of them found their way onto racetracks. And not just in amateur hands, as N1 in Japan wasn't all that different from DTM in Germany. There is a genuine sporting pedigree in that, so much so that the next generation even got a track-focused Type-R variant a few years later.
Where does the 5th-gen Civic fall short? I wouldn't say it was legitimately luxurious, for one. It was a nice economy car, and a real step up if you were coming from something like a Cavalier, but that's not really the same thing as luxury. It also did not drive with the same stability as a larger Honda, let alone an S-Class, so the big car feel in a small car package is missing.
Of course, the problem with all of this is that 5th-gen Civics are old AF, too.
I think the fifth should be the Tesla Model S Plaid. Yes it is expensive, but it achieves acceleration that was thought to be nearly impossible at any price for a production vehicle.
But the argument is that simply being straight line is too much of a one-trick-pony. That's where the Lucid Sapphire comes in for so many enthusiast outlets that actually... you know... care about maintaining control. Handling and braking at speed is not the Plaid's strong suit.
I would rather see the original 2012 non-Plaid in terms of inovation.
@@hduncan2587you don't have to aim that high, the dual motor Lucid Air is just the right car- in that sense.
I can't believe with all the recent stuff Jason has done on the Cybertruck's innovation and firsts in the market. True 48v architecture. New battery technology. True steer-by-wire. Complete re-think of how a pickup truck is constructed and used with it's exoskeleton etc. that it wasn't immediately on the list.
Hasn’t had any impact yet practically, if in a year or two they’ve sold 300,000 I think it would need to go on the list. Especially if the price has come down.
We don’t know yet if 48v will see wide adoption. Should. But possible it’ll be Tesla only.
The mid engined c-8 Corvette, bringing the super/hyper car and the E-Rey’s front electric motor’s and torque vectoring to the masses at a reasonable price.
If you can get one without ADM. But I agree in principle. It's benchmarked against much, much more expensive models from Italy and Britain.
I think there is an argument that the BMW i8 did the E-Rays formula first.
Anything that costs double the price of the average vehicle cannot be considered a mass market vehicle.
@@Briggsian Isn't this whole video about matching the 190? Which was more than double the average car price at the time?
@@redlion145 but it managed to stick around for so long, and it such high numbers, that it became a car of the masses. Truthfully, the Model 3 is the closest thing to it in terms of impact and ubiquity, but the Model 3 is a more disposable car overall.
I'm always surprised by Hyundai/Kia's early adoption of VGT (Variable Geometry Turbo). At one point I think it was only Porsche and Hyundai that did it on gasoline engines. (VGT on diesel was somewhat common due to lower exhaust temp.) The CVVD (Continuously Variable Valve Duration), albeit gimmicky, was pretty cool too.
I mean, the OG Chrysler Vans changed the landscape for a while
Being designed as a response to a legislation change is very common BUT it almost always ends up being quoted as justification as to why the end result is so obviously bad.
Tesla model 3 is best choice on this list. You cannot escape it’s presence in even small towns in the south. You can’t argue with its performance either. As much as I don’t think it’s truly a luxury car it definitely blurs the line especially for the price. Not to mention it’s mechanical simplicity for easier ownership by the masses.
The Porsche Cayenne is second only because of how massive the luxury SUV space is now for the price. You can be anybody and afford a Porsche now. It also opened the market for other luxury brands to throw their offerings into the ring at ridiculously low prices, especially on the used market. Even my parents drive a Audi SQ5 now and they’ve never owned a luxury product.
Have you seen the new refresh? It got a little more luxury!
The Model 3 is poverty. My voice echoes in it and it has the touch and feel of a Sony PS3 controller.
@@aygwm 🥱 Sale figures beg to differ....
Best overview of the updates (Out of Spec Reviews)
th-cam.com/video/wn5SV0oYXeQ/w-d-xo.htmlsi=vxuRusI2DpFxmA90
I'd argue the 5th should be the Ford Maverick. Affordable, unibody, re-making the baby truck segment, excellent engineering and features for the price, weird torque vectoring springs on the FWD models (same as the Fiesta ST).
My first thought went to the 1970s Maverick, but then again, I am physically almost as old as Derek is mentally.
How about smart car? Or maybe Toyota Yaris GR if you want something related to motorsports. The new Mini was also a car that transcended class (in the truest British sense)
Thought of another which truthfully does little in terms of advancement, but it forced other players in the segment to get the “shit” together. The R35 GT-R. Porsche literally revamped the 911 turbo, created a GT2 code named after the lap time, and refocused aspects of their GT program to beat that car. The transaxle AWD system was a first (not sure about that one), and when the car debuted it cost less than anything from Europe remotely fast enough to not immediately see the tail lights.
190Es and W124s are the two cars etched into my brain as the epitome of a taxi growing up in 90s Germany.
Very surprised that they did not list R35 gtr. A super car for $90 that was comfortable enough to drive every day and awd. It changed everything. It made the LFA obsolete before it ever went on sale.
We could argue that BAC with the Mono made the sensation to drive a F1 car on the roads accessible to the masses and it's quite advanced apart from the engine.
I love the new editing.
The Infiniti fx35 and 45 in 2003 was the first crossover that truly drove like a sport sedan. People forget about that car because they were rare but it was a m35/45 on stilts and the design was sooo far ahead of its time
What about the RX? The Cayenne introduced the higher end segment, maybe a sportier variation of the segment, but didn’t the RX introduce the segment…
The most innovative product after the 190E is by far the Toyota Prius. The Hybrid Synergy Drive is an incredible departure from traditional power transmission and gearing. An electro mechanical marvel. It is just incredible how it works. Such an incredibly ballsy move for a traditional company like Toyota. The insight was completely traditional with an inline electric motor. You should probably do an episode on how it works and how everyone has adopted it 20 years later. Love it or hate it, you have to give them credit for changing the entire landscape. How about Land Rover with their 4wd and ABS integration.
Mk IV Golf/ Bora.
Interior of an Audi.
Overengineered.
Origin of ISOFIX.
Will probably stay on the roads far longer than its immediate successor.
More expensive than rivals but sold extremely well.
Timeless design.
If I bought a modern day 190E, it'd be a Giulia. The regular has similar aspirations, nice comfy 4 cylinder with more performance than expected, great ride handling characteristics, beats the segment in chassis rigidity and weight. Amazing little car, and the QF is gorgeous and has racing pedigree. Model 3 is trash compared.
Jeep XJ Cherokee and ZJ Grand Cherokee. Not a step anyone really wanted vehicles to take but really paved the way for the modern crossover. Unibody SUVs with actual offroad ability and car-like daily livability, before the Range Rover went unibody. Some reviewers drive the ZJ and 4.0 equipped XJs and say that they still feel as good as or better than midsize or compact crossovers.
I was screaming NSX the whole time, new market for honda, changed the sports car forever and had an innovative engine and chassis, it was the 190 of sports cars.
Lexus is300 was a copy paste of the 190 formula 15 years later, it wasnt innovative but like the 190 it was a smaller s class or ls400 and brought that level of luxury to the masses.
Mk7 Golf because it brought top level quality to the masses as well.
All of these are also beautiful cars with a bit of motorsport history.
To go with the death of the Rover episode idea you could make another about Holden(Ford Australia) my 5 Bugatti Veyron, Hyundai i30 N, LFA, Model 3 and the Honda N-Box but damn this question is hard
Always come back for some carmudgeon
LFA, NSX, CT6, BMW valvetronic, had some technological innovation I felt. LFA with V10, CF chassis, NSX, Aluminum chassis and VTEC, and CT6 with chassis construction in the rear which was a aluminum casting. BMW removed the throttle body.
Great list! The Cayenne feels notable because it provided a playbook that many small, niche brands have since used. Top sellers like Urus, Cullinan, and Bentayga (and probably the Purosangue and Eletre) feel directly inspired by the Cayenne.
One car I would have considered adding is the Ferrari 355 F1 for introducing paddle-shifters as a new form of interacting with the car. With the direct lineage to F1 racing, genuine performance advantages, and further popularization in the form of BMW’s SMG and Lamborghini’s E-gear, it’s taken over the sports car world as now the (nearly) exclusive choice for shifting gears. Not sure if it moved cars into new markets but it seems like it grew the sports car (and definitely hyper car) markets for making those cars more accessible.
It did advance the state of the automobile. Not for the better, arguably, but the landscape changed MASSIVELY
Welcome back guys
Another great episode! On the subject of Mazda, the Skyactiv X engine (partial compression ignition gas/electronic supercharger) definitely deserves a mention. A 2.0 mazda3 it checks the boxes of technical innovation, does a good job of bringing luxury to the masses, looks great and its a small, nice driving car. Aside from the engine, nothing groundbreaking and its not even an engine they offer in north America. I also dont think it quite fits the question as well as the model 3 or LS 400.
When I was a kid my friends dad had the 190 E AMG. I rode in it daily as we car pooled to school. It was a totally different car than my dad's early 90's Cadillac which was huge and slow.