My Neoden YY1 pick and place machine!
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 13 พ.ย. 2022
- this is a little overview of my neoden yy1 pick and place machine that i used to build my Bee S3 esp32 boards.
you can buy the Bee S3 here - www.tindie.com/products/smart...
or for EU/UK buy it here - www.lectronz.com/products/bee...
#esp32 #neoden #pickandplace #yy1 #esp32s3 #arduino #kicad #pcbdesign #bees3 #smartbeedesigns - วิทยาศาสตร์และเทคโนโลยี
sticky tape reel puller --on my 3v I sometimes just put a small weight on that tape off the edge of the table.
Thanks for the review. I have an older Charmhigh without vision and the main problem was the friction tape collectors as they had a fixed friction level not adjustable and it was always creating problems but I updated those with newer ones where you can adjust the friction with a small allen key and after I do that at initial setup all works great now so I no longer see a good reason to upgrade.
It is much faster while also set at 70 to 80% and one that will be slower will not quite work for me. I do need to place a few parts manually but I can do that while the machine populates other boards.
I have the same machine and I love it overall. Silent. Well designed. Slick touch screen.
Here is what I don't like.
* It does not resume job automatically from where it left it. (when you stop it mid job)
* The machine moving the head when you want to setup a component is a pain. Just stay where you are unless I ask otherwise!
* No networking possible. SD card only. That's a problem.
* Board origin is not saved in the file which means you need to change the origin parameter for every different job.
I could list even more problems. Don't get me wrong it is still a good machine.
I used to maintain an old scintillation counter, probably built in the 80's that had the same problem with its cash register style printer. They provided a tensometer for use with the printer. It was a binder clip you attach to the paper, with tensometer printed on it
Yeah someone else mentioned a binder clip in another post I made and while I tried other weighted objects attached to it, I may try and find a large binder clip and give that a shot. Just annoying to have to re adjust constantly. Thanks for the tip!
Now that I think about it they called it a pullometer. You have to label it for it to work properly.
Hey there Paul! I along with a couple of peers recently ordered a YY1 for research. We were wondering if you had any updates about the viability and utility of the board? Thanks for all the helpful videos!
I'm still running with a Neoden TM240A, which had no vision, but accurate enough even without vision. This thing has paid for itself 50 times over in time saved from manually stuffing boards.
On the tape issue, you need to tie a fishing weight (sea fishing weight of 300grams. Make sure the machine is on the edge of a desk and the tension the 300grams provides should technically be like someone holding the tape. We had to do this on the unreliable larger feeders on the Neoden 4
yeah several other people have mentioned similar solutions. like using a binder clip which i will try during my next upcoming production run.
Thanks for your info, it is really valuable. I'm looking for a machine which can change nozzles automatically or it has four heads. This one seems to be built good, I like how the reels hide under it, but it seems really slow so I don't know. Also editing stuff on that screen seems hard. Lacking end switches I can hardly believe. I would buy SMT330-LX but it's out of stock (it has nozzle changer). Currently I have a machine from Qi-He, TVM802B. This had uses some old MS webcams for vision and it hardly finds fiducials and doesn't align the components very well, so I'm looking for an upgrade. Any suggestions are welcome.
As mentioned by others in earlier comments, a light weight would help, otherwise you could use a release agent of some type on the teeth of the peelers (ones giving an issue with adhesive tape). This release agent can be as simple as a small amount of wax, or very carefully applied W40 using a q-tip (obviously keep away from the friction washers).
Those are some interesting ideas. The wax idea might work
@@paulprice What actually works well is powder (i.e. talc) as this reduces friction slightly and doesn't make things too slippery (as waxes and other lubricants can do). And I don't mean to dump it on ! what I do is place a very very thin coating on my thumb and index finger and rub the steel shaft. Then slide the friction wheel(s) sideways over the spot. You may not even see the talc on the shaft, but there is plenty there to do the job so there is no worry at all about getting powder into the YY1.
I use the YY1 for production purposes and have currently run 3000+ boards with an average of 50 components per board. Setup can take a little time, but I have had good success with figuring out the friction issues. Once it is all happy it will run with no interruptions other that changing boards and component reels.
Hello, can you measure the distance between the legs of the car, I want to understand if my table is suitable for it?
Thanks for the video. Using Teflon (or similar) coated rollers for the sticky side of the tape might help. Perhaps a silicon spray? The tape will have one side with left over adhesive and another side that is clean (not sticky). So what you require is two different rollers - one sticky and another that avoids adhesion. Perhaps the rollers they ship with have different properties? If not, you could complain and request some Teflon coated rollers or similar. And request that they are different colors! But they might seriously entertain the idea if it allows for them to improve their product.
Oh, rollers made of Delrin might work. It is hard to get anything to stick to Delrin. It is also easy to machine.
You can add fishing weight with paper clips. on sticky tapesa
I've had a few issues... The tape advance solenoid on mine would stick in the low position, so I lasercut a new "stopper" that limits the bottom and the top, instead of just the top. Also it won't recognize qf32 on the up camera at all, same with the down camera on the black parts tray, no amount of camera tuning worked. Small annoyances that take over. Same problems you had too. The firmware is also driving me kind of crazy. haha - Wish they would open source.
the needle tape advance on mine has started acting up too, it has started to not fire after sitting for a bit. Which is annoying when starting a new run up and it fails to pick parts. The workaround for the moment is i manually fire it several times until it goes then I start the program, but I'm in contact with neoden right now trying to find a solution.
I've not done any camera stuff with the bulk tray at all other than picking up esp32 modules but I'm not using the camera for that.
So yeah, it's not without it's faults and issues but for what it is and the price kind of have to live with the issues.
The solder paste must be placed by hand?
Maybe you can put some additional weights on a peeled side of the tape, like some clips or clothes pins, it will pull it by gravity and probably peel better.
Can you also place lose components - like putting a chip onto the table manually and let the machine pick & align it?
This might be easier than changing tapes for a single part, in case you have a high number of different components.
Yeah you can set up your own pick up spots for loose components or custom trays.
Thanks for the vid! Is vision alignment an option for the bigger components, like the ESP32 ? It looks like it didn't do any alignment with that module.
There is no vision alignment unfortunately. The esp32 modules are just a hair too big to use the up facing camera to align them. Half the time it'd place them and the other half of the time it would fail to recognize it and discard the module. So I just place them without vision. I 3d printed a tray to hold the modules in a tight formation and then it just picks and places them dummy style. Works pretty well, tho occasionally I'd have to tweak the placement after the fact if a module was off a little bit, but for the most part it was a reliable way to pick and place the esp32s
I should add, the up face camera supports up to 18x18mm components. And the modules I was using were 15x20mm.
@@paulprice What needle do you use for ESP32 modules? Is it CN750?
We’re you able to try the bulk feeder? From other videos it appears to somehow recognize individual parts and be able to determine how to pick them up, wondered if that was true?
That's not something I've had to use, so I'm not sure.
I was also wondering what type of tape rings you got, and where you got them from for replacements? Thanks so much!
Do you mean the little baggies with the extra friction rings? Those came with the machine.
It does have opto interrupters for limit switches. Oh, I can complain the software especially setting the pick height or place height. That should be done in one screen, I should not have to bounce between up to 3 different screens to set this. The lack of documentation other than the videos is a major to me. The one thing that i still haven't figure out exactly how to set component rotation.
Thanks for the overview, I'm considering buying a pick place machine, but have not decided yet. Is this the best in its price range or are there better ones? What do you do if a board uses more components than feeders, can you partially assembly multiple panels with one set of tapes in the feeders, and then do a second run on the batch of panels to assemble the remaining components? Does the software support that kind of thing?
im not aware of really anything else in this price bracket that is as feature rich as the yy1. its not a perfect PNP by any stretch and it has its issues here and there but even with issues its still WAY faster to assemble boards then by doing them by hand.
as far as doing panels in two operations. yes you could do that, it could be as simple as just making two separate pnp files for each set of components if you have more components than feeders available. but in that scenario i think the limiting factor would be the solder paste on your board drying out before you could get it re-ran through the machine for the next batch's of components. hope that helps
@@paulprice what do you use for applying the solder paste to the boards?
@@bluc0bra when you order your PCBs you can addon what's called a solder paste stencil. It's basically a thin sheet of metal with all the pads of your pcb cut out so you can lay it over your pcb and squeegee the solder paste across it and it'll only put the paste on pads that need it.
i dont have the same machine, but i know the problem. We used a fishing weight attached to a fishing hook. After someone hurt themselves, they attached the fishing weight to a banana clip. We used it several years without problems.
How do you find it on QFN accuracy and 9mm high components. It looks better able to cope than the Neoden 4.
i havent placed any QFNs yet, so i cant speak to that. the tallest components ive placed is 5.5mm and its worked fine.
Great video! I have one of these as well. Let me know if you'd like to set up a support group, preferably with drinks. :-) One question: where did you get that awesomely wide feeder bank on the lower right?? I need one of those!
I ordered the wider feeder when I bought the machine and it came with the wider idler wheels for the tape peeler too.
@@paulprice Interesting, I wasn't aware that was an option when ordering. Did you order directly from Neoden (Alibaba, etc.) or from Neoden USA? Is there a list or catalog somewhere of the configuration/add-on options?
I ordered directly from neoden China. They're custom ordered in that I told them how many 24mm feeders I wanted and they made the feeder for me.
Hello there Sir, is it somehow possible if you could try LQFP-112 ..? if the machine accepts and pick and place that packaging.?
unfortunately i do not have any of those on hand to try. but the machine supports up to 18mm x 18mm packages. thats the biggest thing the up facing camera can see. the ESP32 modules i placed in this video are bigger than 18x18, so i place them dummy style with no vision adjustments. it works pretty well for that, but if you're trying to place a large packages like the LQFP-112 with a lot of tiny pins it probably wouldn't be super accurate.
@@paulprice Thank you sir, ifsoever you have videos of how the friction idlers operate, that would be so fantastic...!
They definitely have to add the 2 fiducial support because all their bigger machine has them and it's all in software. And that firmware upgrade using board swap is just ridiculous. Other than fiddly feeder tape peeling mechanism, this is probably most bang for bucks at USD2.6K. Would probably get this to complement my larger machine for projects using more feeders than my larger machine can take.
Hi,
I also have the YY1. I agree with the issues you point out about the peelers.they are not ideal.
But I have an issue with mine, when I try to save the location of the first component, the machine does not save the location. Don't you have this problem?
Have you tried fine tuning the positions of the components when you start a run? I go over this in a new video I just uploaded about the yy1
@@paulprice yes I have. But that is not my issue.
For an example, if you try to make a manual file you might see what I mean if you have the issue as I have.
It really quick to do, select that you will make a manual file and type in one fictional component. Then go to Fiducial and then select the first option which is finding the first component. Your camera will then go to x-0,0 y-0,0.move the camera and hit save. If you into the Fiducial menu again, weepy will see that the position of the first component was not saved.
This becomes a huge problem when making manual files or if your board has like a 5mm extra edge, added at the pcb factory.
Do you have this error?
@@paulprice I have just watched your latest video answering question about the YY1, and seemd to me that you have the same issue, and it explains why you fine tune all the components. You mention that the components gets more and more aligned as you go through them, I wonder if this is because the components gets near the fiducial, as it do save that position.
@@MichaelMaj5 I don't think it's because it gets closer to the fiducial it gets better, I've fine tuned the adjustments on components going the other direction and they still seem to get better.
For me, to get consistent pick and placing of parts after a reboot, I double check all the feeder positions. Then I setup my fiducial/component and then lastly I'll go through and double check all the component positions and fine tune them if need be. After that, do not turn off the machine if you can help it. If I leave the machine on after I've done that, I've had essentially no issues with it and it'll reliably pick and place for hours on end, one panel after another.
@@paulprice I have not had those issues you describe. I have so far mounted about 600 boards on the machine.
But I do experience that the feeders pull harder when starting mounting after the machine had been standing still... Like over night. That is a pain.
Have you checked if your machine saves the position of the first component when you fine tune on the fiducial page?
hello, did you print the feeder for the esp32?
Are you talking about the little tray with the esp32s in it? Yes I designed it and 3d printed it.
Hi Paul!! can this machine do through hole parts??
Through hole components that have short & simple leads like caps, yes. Tho your milage may vary.
But through hole components that have long leads that aren't always straight I would very much doubt it can handle.
@@paulprice ok thanks!!
Rare earth magnets, clip two (or more) of them on the 'sticky' tape (one on each side) and let gravity do it's job and pull the tape off the wheel.
Clip a fishing weight onto the sticky plastic leader... Let gravity give you a break.
Same machine and same peeler issue , we are working to find a solution.
Have you had an luck with fixing the issue having to reset the unit every time you finish a run?
Yes it was a z placement height issue where when I was placing a component that was tall, it would make the z motor skip a step and then would need rebooted to reset it. Rasing the place height of those tall components made the difference and then I was able to run back to back without having to reset the machine.
@@paulprice thank you so much for the fast reply. I would like to order one of these units. Do you have any recommendations for placing an order. Where did you get yours? Sounds like they responded pretty well to you when the unit arrived damaged.
@@silvlink if you're in the US, just order from neoden USA. I bought mine form chine directly,but after import fees the cost savings from buying from neoden USA is negligible.
clip clothes pegs onto the end of the plastic strip and hang it of the edge of the table
How to stop the sticking tape: What about sticking a plumb to the end with a piece of tape. It will pull it tight downwards - till it hits the table, but at least you have a larger time window to act in. Yes a clutch but maybe it is better than nothing. Ah ok nothing new here I read.
Hanzhen harmonic drive gear , strain wave reducer, robot joint , over 30 years experience
use a bulldog clip as a weight on the sticky tapes and let it hang down ...
Actually the max placement rate is likely using no vision and picking from part closest to board. Thanks for the review. I'm not a fan of the peeler mechanism and I can't get the up camera dialed in for all my parts. Some need a setting of 50, some closer to 70. This should be adjustable per component type but it's a global setting unfortunately.
Nice looking machine but you just can't walk away and let it do its thing unless you are strictly placing resistors from paper tape. I have a heck of a time with parts in plastic tape where the needle that pulls the tape gets briefly stuck and when it pulls up the component in the tape is disturbed.
im pretty sure the camera threshold is adjustable per component, but the setting is in each of the feeder setttins menu at the bottom of the screen towards the right. you can tap the little green arrows left or right to adjust the camera threshold.
ive had very little issues with the needle getting stuck and flicking parts out of the tape. make sure the pick up point is as close to where the tape comes out, this will help with it knocking parts out when it tries to pick them up.
I had a 3V, and I must say I'm disappointed seeing their new machine uses the same finicky tape peeler + hole puller style of feeder mechanism. This is a royal PITA, and it has never worked particularly well.