"Just imagine The Martian with Matt Damon except instead of farming potatoes, he was a potato." - Best description ever!! Thanks for making my day Quinns!
The most entertaining and thoughtful negative review I've ever come across. It did not felt like venting or gratuitous bashing. Your point of view was explained very well and it was engaging. Thanks!
It is admirable that the designer is active on the BGG forums, but even after all the criticisms from both the preorder players and reviewers (SU&SD, No Pun Included and others) he is still adamant that the rulebook is fine and people just need to read it carefully. No Ignacy, the rulebook is a hot mess and some rules are just not there or contradict with the later FAQ. This is my 6th game from Portal and first one I won't keep in my collection so Portal is still batting way above average for me but I won't preorder Alien Artefacts before the reviews are in.
Exactly, you'd think they'd get their act together on that... RC's v1.0 rules were fucking terrible. I heard the new edition's rules are "Better" but still have issues. What they need to do is higher a dedicated page layout / designer that can create killer rule books, and off load that, if Igancy is doing it. Or fire the person that is.. Because Portal keeps dropping the ball. I also wonder how often they blind play test their games... because it doesn't feel like they do that at all.
Also, weren't there serious issues with Cry Havoc? Gaps in the rules, or things seeming confusing? I haven't played, but was pretty sure I heard rumblings about that.
Welcome to Trzewiczek's World. This guy might be The worst game designer in Poland, but his ego is legendary. He really thinks that he is The next Richard Garfield because he made reaally bad rpg system that plagiarizes every cool action movie from The 80's, but RPG market in 90's poland was so barren that it still became bestseller and launched his Company into The stratosphere. Every game he made was A disaster.
If a designer needs to constantly respond to 'pleas for help" I think that's a hint right there lol. Thank you for saving me money SU&SD, I almost got pulled into the hype vortex.
I'm wondering how many of the outstanding issues could be fixed by updating the App after release. When you have such dependence on a piece of software there's greater scope for delivering errata to the players.
Scott Manley The equivalent of fixing your staging after launch. 😉 Also now i'm confused if i would prefer to see a KSP-themed expansion of this game or a "first martians"-mod in KSP.
I'm definitely glad that all the reviews started rolling in in time for me to cancel my preorder for this. I love the idea of this game, so I'm hopeful that it will be fixed with updates to the app, and or a second edition.
I'm afraid that in this case the issues seems mostly to be the fundamental design of the game. If you have to place 2-3 action tokens on repair actions every turn, and another 2-3 on healing astronauts only then you only have 0-2 tokens left for meaningful choices/actions. Which is not something you want to have happen. Having the game basically play itself or just flatout losing the game is not something interesting or fun. And much as I would love to believe just changing some stuff in the app would fix that. Looking at a board that consists of mostly subsystems that constantly break do not make me believe this can be fixed in this way for this game. For another game with a tablet, sure, not this one though, the design and all components are just too geared towards this maitaining of the base. Also hadn't expected you to be watching SU&SD, glad to be wrong though :) .
Very true, it probably depends a lot on how well supported the app is/how the contract works between the board game and software companies. A lot of the phone implementations of board games don't seem to get a lot of updates unfortunately which is a bit of a missed opportunity
I understand how the red green light panel sounds cool, but this looks like the most colorblind unfriendly game out of the box I have seen in a LONG time.
@@Alluvian567 ,you do realise the characters in the game are astronauts,right? There wouldn't be a colourblind friendly version because colourblindness wouldn't cut it for an astronaut who has to refer to colourcoded warning labels. It's the same with pilots and especially true for staff on an aircraft carrier.
@beehive ,they are playing as astronauts,and astronauts must have normal vision in order to see warning labels,button colours,wiring,and everything else that engineering over the many decades has set as the norm.
@beehive ,and that changes he fact they're playing as astronauts how? How on Earth would you even go about making a game about playing as an astronaut,who deal with colours as part of the job,work for a colourblind person? Astronauts must have normal vision,and anyone who wants to play a game that even slightly simulates that must also have normal vision,there's no arguement that can change that.
I've watched a lot of reviews from you guys, and this one is among my favorites. I appreciate reviewers who point out the good, and the bad, about games. And based on my limited experience with this game, you are spot on here.
This is my favorite review in a long time. Of late, I have sensed fatigue, even in the videos of games you guys seem to really like. Quinns, you were in spectacular form. I wonder if just the ideas and scope of this game, were enough to spark the passion, or maybe you're finally getting enough rest? Thank you for what you do, S&S is truly top shelf.
As someone who is currently programming a systems-heavy strategy game, I concur. When Quinns was listing all the things that the players had to do to progress a turn, all I could think was "this would go so much faster with a computer handling the rules".
Agreed. There's a lot of boardgames that would do so, so much better as computer games simply because the computer can handle things that would be time consuming and tedious to do in real life in less than a second. Also, there's never any issue of "Oh did I do that right?" because the computer game wouldn't let you make an illegal move.
I feel that way about quite a few modern board games. I don't hate complexity per se but, when the game wants me to constantly play on its behalf, that's where some automation comes in handy...
at some point, when enough people are having the same issues, you have to admit that something 'might' be unclear. I remember someone telling me that I was an idiot because I didn't read the rules enough to understand that in Terraforming Mars, I could play more than 2 actions per generation. Sure enough, it's one of the most misunderstood rules that a LOT of solo players have had issues with.
My biggest issue with the vast majority of coop games is that they are essentially solo games. The coop aspect usually ends up with more experienced players dictating their actions through the less experienced players. For me they work better solo or with just 2 players. My main issue with robinson crusoe was the fact that often you knew exactly what needed to be done but it just isnt interesting when you have no real choice other than to do the essential thing to survive.
Yeah I really wanted to like Robinson Crusoe but it felt like there was such a precise answer to the puzzle and a lot of replays and luck (or reducing the difficulty by taking extra starting items) were required to win that I couldn't have imagined it working well with a group. This is a very late comment but might be worth checking out Escape the curse of the temple for a very different (and very fun!) Co op vibe. I think that's different as really it's not about solving a hard puzzle but about rushing around working on the same thing (sometimes solo sometimes together) with everyone rolling dice like mad and then needing help from other players if you get your dice locked. The curses expansion (which comes with the main game) has some excellent twists aswell. It's a good one as really quick to play and teach and you always play at least 2 games of it
0:28 Here in England, where English was invented, we rather say "That takes the biscuit". This is because we don't find the word biscuit to be "tough to spell" like in other, not native English dialects.
You can tell this is by Ignace trziwek (I think i spelled that right). Each player has 2 action pawns? Huge scenario sheets? Too much to do? Exploring outside of your camp and a morale track? Incredibly complicated? This seems like a reimplementation of Robinson Crusoe adventures on the cursed island. But whereas Robinson Crusoe is one of my favorite games ever, I trust su&sd’s opinion.
Yes, I watch SDSU to be entertained. And, yes, I watch to learn about board games. But I also feel like I'm learning a foreign language. Today's British word - gee-ser. It doesn't mean "cranky old man." Nope, it means guy-ser. Who knew? I figure after a few more seasons, I'll be able to visit the UK without a phrase book.
I had to come and watch your reviews after my first games. I've watched Watch it played How to play and Game play videos when they came out and was hyped for the game. Although too expensive for me at the time. Well I bought it at the store yesterday for a third of the usual price. Took the whole afternoon to learn the rule, thankfully Watch it played video is indexed, still it was hard/long to find some answers. I don't see myself ever teaching it to anyone else, it is so hard and complicated and so many component to setup; but as a solo play, i did enjoy the puzzle of Last Martian. Your review is very on point!
I asked one of the guys at Portal's booth, "If I own Robinson Crusoe, why should I buy this?" and he really couldn't answer the question adequately. This looks like an even more complex version of that game which is already complex enough, has a lousy rulebook, an enormous upkeep, too many components, and is also most fun to play alone. I do, however, really enjoy the game, but I don't like having to go back to relearn the rules. So, if I go any length of time without playing it, it's a long length of time. Like parsecs of time.
You might take a look at Robinson Crusoe board game. Seems similar, but there is no app, there is better manual and last year new expantion came out - so maybe review even? As awlays - very entertaining video! Never stop!
RC isn't much more streamlined, tbh. It's better, certainly, but unless you're captivated by long rulebooks, spending an hour getting your group up to speed on it, and not being able to play with anyone who has played one less game than you (because you MUST alpha-game it), and planning to spend five sessions figuring it out, give that a pass as well.
@@ichifish I never played First Martians so I can't really compare RC to it. However, I strongly disagree with your comment. I will grant that RC is a difficult game to learn from scratch, and it did take me over an hour to figure it out (including my time spent watching a TH-cam tutorial from Watch It Played). However, teaching it to new players was far simpler and a lot quicker. You're also *profusely* wrong about having to alpha game RC. The issue with alpha gaming is when the same person constantly figures out the "optimal action" that everyone else should take. With RC, there usually isn't an optimal action or the optimal action isn't clear at all. Sure, everyone might agree that fire wood needs to be collected, but should everyone focus on building up their shelter, creating new tools, or exploring more land? It's not clear at all. Yes, you can still have alpha gamers in RC. However, if you do have an alpha gamer problem with RC, then you're probably having an alpha gamer problem with that person in all co-op games with open communication. At that point, it's an issue with that particular gamer and not the game. There are so many people who enjoy RC that it's clearly a good game that works for so many people. So, telling others they shouldn't buy the game just because you personally didn't enjoy it is a quite arrogant.
Very helpful review. The game seems like a step downwards from Robinson Crusoe despite being hyped otherwise in terms of being a fun and immersive experience.
The green/red LEDs thing doesn't just seem annoying for people who have difficulty distinguishing those colours, but outright hostile because of the sheer number of those tokens.
@Behemotty11 As Agwblack mentioned, one of the reasons I play board games is to get away from things like my computer, TV, phone, etc. Also, I don't own a tablet which, as mentioned in the review, could make it very hard to use the app on my cell phone. If the game has random events or whatever why not just have those printed on cards or have a dice roll on a chart or something? It's much quicker to draw a card off a deck than it is to pick up my phone, press the power button, enter my password to unlock it, navigate through the app to the appropriate section and finally get a random event. Leaving the device on the whole time can lead to the battery draining which happened while we were playing Mansions of Madness at a friend's place for a game day. We had to move the table and pin one poor soul between the table and a wall because the charging cord for his tablet wasn't long enough to reach from the power outlet to the table in the middle of the dining room. I don't mind if board/card games have a companion app that is used for record keeping outside of the game. However it is so quick and easy to take a picture of the game state with my phone for when we pick the game up later or jotting down a note or two to stick in the box that most of the time I'd pass on using the app anyway.
So some real quick things: - Yes, the barrier of cost/access. I don't have a tablet. If I did, it might not be the right kind of tablet. - Sometimes an app is just used to do something you can do with a deck of cards and a booklet, which is a bit needless - Installing/keeping an app up to date can be a barrier to a game's long life. Small annoyance but one that might not be necessary if the app isn't actually providing more depth to the game - Apps create a head-down experience - you're more likely to have moments where players are caring about what's on the app rather than what's on the table in front of them - Apps are often made with bad user interface/user experience; this is a problem board games already have and having the same developers make an app often highlights this problem - As mentioned, avoiding screens is something some people want to do. An app makes that a problem. None of this is to say apps are bad but they aren't an inherent good and complaints about them are not inherently meaningless. I mean, some of these things apply to other mechanical decisions like soundtracks or real time play. But they are things worth understanding, and an app introduces a ton of new things a developer can get wrong.
Remember when Quinns was talking about how the game was a puzzle box? That's kind of what apps do to board games... There are some aspects of the game that are simply hidden from the players that get thrown in their laps. Mansions of Madness does the same thing- combat involves using the app which tells you what to do and what the consequences are, which prevents players from properly strategizing those aspects of the game. Also, remember the part where he talks about "What happens when the O2 meter is at 0?" Well, I bet that there ARE consequences for that happening... but they are hidden in the app. (Hence why the app needs to know that information) I actually don't mind apps for board games, but they can make navigating these games more difficult.
Agree with you - I really dislike board games with apps. The only game I have which will have an app is Star Wars: Imperial Assault but in this case I think it's a good idea because I don't want to play the Imperial player and no one else in my group does either but the game is awesome in itself without the app.
Thank you so much for this review. Now, I know I'm not alone. After an hour and half of set up I was stoked to play this beautiful co-op game with two other players. However, the app was lame, the rounds were confusing and by sol 5, I found myself scheming to starve all the astronauts just to put us out of the bumbtastic misery that was first martians. I still couldn't manage that. It may have put me off of co-op games for good if I hadn't seen this review.
I just got this for 10 euro new just for the lozenges and cubes. After unboxing it I understand why it did not succeed. So much complexity it intimidates and only 3 plastic bags for a game with a gazilion different components and tedious setup - my head hurts and I've got better things to do. Gotta bathe the dog before winter comes.
Chiming in with a comment on a 6 year old video but...historically, it was fascinating watching the fall of this game. Within months of release, its reputation became very negative and copies were selling for around $10 a pop or less on the aftermarket. That's almost low enough just to buy for the components. It was crazy.
That's for the review. Just got this game for my birthday because a friend read the back of the box and it sounded great. I am hoping they maybe did some work to the app to improve things.
See, I largely agree with SUSD's review and opinions. This game indeed took me 2 views of Watch It Played 50 minute how-to-play video, a slow and long reading of the rules, another playthrough video and about 3-4 solo games to eventually learn First Martians. But now that I play intuitively, I love the game and the stories FM has to offer. I know the game has it's faults, but it remains one of my favorites after 30 plays. So it's been certainly been a weird one for me - indeed I love the first campaign story!
I will add: I've played exclusively solo late at night after kids were in bed. It's a great solo game but it would certainly be prone to an alpha-player problem with more players.
Yes, I'm with you. Definitely was tough to get through all the rules and some of them are a bit fiddly. But once I felt I had a strong handle on it, this game became one of my favorites. It's too bad some things weren't explained better. It really needs a 2.0.
This game sounds like it would be an amazing computer game. If all the upkeep and all the token moving and all the stretching and shifting and what not was masked behind lovely cutscenes and automatic happening, if all the rules were handled automatically, and all you had to do was roll some digital dice and make some interesting lozenge choices, this seems like it would be incredible. Seriously, I've NEVER seen a board game that seems like it would benefit SO much from being turned into a really nice computer game. And I don't mean "a computer game based on this game." I mean a computerized, digitized version of this game, like the Terra Mystica or Waterdeep or, specifically, the Pathfinder Adventures games that are available on Steam. Specifically that last one is a great example of what can be done with just a little coat of paint and a few simple cutscenes. So yeah, I REALLY hope that this game sees a computerized version of this game. I'd buy it in a heartbeat.
This isn't the first game you've reviewed that I've had this thought about, but, maybe it wants to be a kind of computer game rather than a board game? That is, a game, maybe on Facebook or something, where the computer deals with all the admin and you can just focus on the puzzles and making decisions on the campaign. It would make learning the ruleset so much easier.
Legacy of the Stars My favourite co-op! Never stops entertaining and the chaos is hilarious. Just that the game resolve application is a must when you have learned the game.
As much as people don't like games that require apps, that's how much I don't like games that require soundtracks. Just personal preference. I like programmed movement games. It's fun to watch the chaos, but I'd rather play as robots fighting each other or at least attempting to do so, and at my leisure.I'd love to play Space Alert as long as someone else was doing the setting up, playing of audio, and we were in a setting where we could actually hear the damn thing.
Billy Board Game with a Dream Yeah the whole setting the soundtrack and because i am the most english fluent player in our group i have to pay attention to it the whole time is pretty annoying. I guess as Rahdo talked about it in his 2.0 video Space Alert really needs a dedicated app to really shine.
This has to be the best game review I ever saw. Thank you for your honest and well reasoned review. I imagine there is pressure to give a big release game a good review but I think you truly do the creators a favor by so clearly pointing out the shortcomings. I seems like an upgrade of a few components and documentation could really elevate the experience. I also thought the many difficulties you encountered in your review could be seen as very real components of the atmosphere of survival in a martian colony. Thanks for a great review! Subscribed!
Great review. You really laid out the problems everyone is having with this came more concisely. In the end, I love the theme and scale of this game and I'd give it a chance until you described the stories in the game. Whether its from writing or just what comes up naturally during gameplay, the fluff of what you're doing has to be compelling and entertaining and it sounds like they missed that, causing the mechanical problems of the game to be front and center.
I had the same reaction to Robinson Crusoe. Seems really great, but it both times I pulled it out my group couldn't hack the ridiculously difficult ruleset.
I think he just summed up why I've gotten to the point where I'm done with coop games where a bunch of people are grinding against the game and there's nothing in there that gives each person a good chance to really strike out on their own, like Space Alert. It feels like it's less fun playing with a group, where you could be doing something where you're challenging each other, than it would be if you did it on your own.
Phew.. glad I dodged that one. Nearly pre-ordered this.. but after my experiences with the first edition of Robinson Crusoe I knew I should hold out for the 2nd or 3rd edition.
yeah I bought it for $20 dollars and its on my table now for several hours trying to figure out the tutorial... I love the premise and play solo so I will get through it.
I am hopeful as someone in the group bought it so will try to make the best out of it. Thanks again for the great information on it and it looks like it could be really cool but it sounds like I should lower expectations a tad until the first play through or two :).
Given that NASA prioritizes people with personalities that are easy-going and capable of working together even over expertise in the field due to their understanding of just how important being able to work together in high-stress situations is when you're millions of miles from any help, the idea that the astronauts would be having actual fistfights to the point of being injured is probably the most unrealistic, immersion-breaking, "I'm sorry this was supposed to be a sim of life on Mars?" thing about this game.
@@OverlordZephyros Yes, and after Lisa Nowak, you know what they did? They actually decided to re-check and reexamine their selection process. Because NASA isn't made up of idiots, no matter how many Hollywood movies portray them and astronauts as such. No, the plot of Solaris will never happen, I'm sorry. That's not how things work. It's fine if a game wants to take a more cinematic take on colonization. But when a game is selling itself on immersion and being a gritty simulation... then having astronauts starting fist fights like they're your average reality TV contestant is going against that.
@@Shenaldrac the point is that no matter how much training, conditioning, screeing, etc we all humans in the end, humans are not perfect and stuff like this will happen eventually. Especially when we start to send more of them.
I was starting to think it was me. For this game I had to search for rule answers on the Interenet constantly. I didn't have nowhere near so many essential doubts with Robison Crusoe 1st ed manual
We bought the pre-order version. It hit the table, we tried to work it out for a few days, and we packed it up so we could play something else. Since with love Robinson Crusoe, I thought this would be more of the same but with better rules and an app to guide you through. The app here just makes things more confusing. I feel as though they need to fix the app so it helps rather than hinders.
This game seemed to have many similarities to Robinson Crusoe which I played many times and never ended up liking because of all the stuff the game was trying to accomplish. Its the opposite of an elegant design. Then I googled and voila, it's the same designer
not just the same designer, it's basically a re-implementation of Robinson Crusoe.. Basically Robinson Crusoe 2.0 with app. This was never a secret, and is pretty well known before hand. I like Robinson Crusoe, but I agree with Quinns, it's almost best as a solo game, or maybe as a 2 player game. But I agree with you Robinson Crusoe has so many moving parts, it's a wonder why it couldn't be stream lined.
Ah but I love Robinson Crusoe. I play it all the time for just a challenging survival game on an island. But this theme is lame; and I'm an app developer and it looks like their app is clunky. I really can't be excited about this one.
AMProductions I heard the first edition of Robinson Crusoe was plagued with rule issues however I bought the second edition and had no issues whatsoever (and from what I read the re-release sorted everything out). Here’s hoping this gets a ‘second edition’ as I love Crusoe and like the idea of more of the same... in space.
I spotted the Conan boxes on your shelf. Do you plan to review the expansions (Nordheim, Stygia and Khitai) ? They're great, I really like what they did with the special rules, and the maps and minis are beautiful.
One of the most underrated games ever. It just shouldn't say 'adventures' on the cover. It is a hardcore, realistic simulation of trying to survive on mars. If you are looking for smth like this it is awesome.
Great review, as always! I've watched this game ramp up with a mix of anticipation and fear in equal measure and I suspect, based on your review, all of my worst fears have been confirmed... perhaps an expansion of RC would have been a better bet, though I suspect there was one eye on "those who bought RC will buy this". Sad to say but I think it's a Money-grab...
"Every imaginable flavour of throat lozenge". I died.
These videos are always tops.
Well said, yours are also phenomenal!
Why did u eat it?
"Just imagine The Martian with Matt Damon except instead of farming potatoes, he was a potato." - Best description ever!! Thanks for making my day Quinns!
The most entertaining and thoughtful negative review I've ever come across. It did not felt like venting or gratuitous bashing. Your point of view was explained very well and it was engaging. Thanks!
It is admirable that the designer is active on the BGG forums, but even after all the criticisms from both the preorder players and reviewers (SU&SD, No Pun Included and others) he is still adamant that the rulebook is fine and people just need to read it carefully. No Ignacy, the rulebook is a hot mess and some rules are just not there or contradict with the later FAQ. This is my 6th game from Portal and first one I won't keep in my collection so Portal is still batting way above average for me but I won't preorder Alien Artefacts before the reviews are in.
What saddened me the most, is this was RC in space. Portal had been down the rules wobbles road with that one, why then do it all again.
Exactly, you'd think they'd get their act together on that... RC's v1.0 rules were fucking terrible. I heard the new edition's rules are "Better" but still have issues. What they need to do is higher a dedicated page layout / designer that can create killer rule books, and off load that, if Igancy is doing it. Or fire the person that is.. Because Portal keeps dropping the ball. I also wonder how often they blind play test their games... because it doesn't feel like they do that at all.
Also, weren't there serious issues with Cry Havoc? Gaps in the rules, or things seeming confusing? I haven't played, but was pretty sure I heard rumblings about that.
Welcome to Trzewiczek's World. This guy might be The worst game designer in Poland, but his ego is legendary. He really thinks that he is The next Richard Garfield because he made reaally bad rpg system that plagiarizes every cool action movie from The 80's, but RPG market in 90's poland was so barren that it still became bestseller and launched his Company into The stratosphere. Every game he made was A disaster.
But I will say that overall Portal made some decent games, nothing outstanding but passable, thanks to other devs in The Company.
Can we get an hour loop of Matt fighting himself?
If a designer needs to constantly respond to 'pleas for help" I think that's a hint right there lol. Thank you for saving me money SU&SD, I almost got pulled into the hype vortex.
I'm wondering how many of the outstanding issues could be fixed by updating the App after release. When you have such dependence on a piece of software there's greater scope for delivering errata to the players.
Scott Manley The equivalent of fixing your staging after launch. 😉
Also now i'm confused if i would prefer to see a KSP-themed expansion of this game or a "first martians"-mod in KSP.
I'm definitely glad that all the reviews started rolling in in time for me to cancel my preorder for this. I love the idea of this game, so I'm hopeful that it will be fixed with updates to the app, and or a second edition.
Its good to see you here Scott!
I'm afraid that in this case the issues seems mostly to be the fundamental design of the game.
If you have to place 2-3 action tokens on repair actions every turn, and another 2-3 on healing astronauts only then you only have 0-2 tokens left for meaningful choices/actions. Which is not something you want to have happen. Having the game basically play itself or just flatout losing the game is not something interesting or fun.
And much as I would love to believe just changing some stuff in the app would fix that. Looking at a board that consists of mostly subsystems that constantly break do not make me believe this can be fixed in this way for this game. For another game with a tablet, sure, not this one though, the design and all components are just too geared towards this maitaining of the base.
Also hadn't expected you to be watching SU&SD, glad to be wrong though :) .
Very true, it probably depends a lot on how well supported the app is/how the contract works between the board game and software companies. A lot of the phone implementations of board games don't seem to get a lot of updates unfortunately which is a bit of a missed opportunity
So someone made a video game and then forced you to play it on a board?
Pretty much
_Divinity: Origin Sin: The Board Game: Chronicle #1_
I understand how the red green light panel sounds cool, but this looks like the most colorblind unfriendly game out of the box I have seen in a LONG time.
Five years on,but has no one asked "Have you seen a colourblind astronaut before?" ?
@@NareshSinghOctagon Only astronauts play board games? Didn't know that. Thanks for the information.
@@Alluvian567 ,you do realise the characters in the game are astronauts,right?
There wouldn't be a colourblind friendly version because colourblindness wouldn't cut it for an astronaut who has to refer to colourcoded warning labels.
It's the same with pilots and especially true for staff on an aircraft carrier.
@beehive ,they are playing as astronauts,and astronauts must have normal vision in order to see warning labels,button colours,wiring,and everything else that engineering over the many decades has set as the norm.
@beehive ,and that changes he fact they're playing as astronauts how?
How on Earth would you even go about making a game about playing as an astronaut,who deal with colours as part of the job,work for a colourblind person?
Astronauts must have normal vision,and anyone who wants to play a game that even slightly simulates that must also have normal vision,there's no arguement that can change that.
Cancelled my pre-order. Got a bird feeder instead.
We the birds thank you for your decision.
@@TimothyPetersphoto Why? You know the squirrels are just going to steal it all before you can get to it.
‘De-fraggle your hard drive’
Love it.
"Anton Engineerovich" is the perfect name for your average, run-of-the-mill Russian engineer.
I pre-ordered this, tried really hard to like it, and sadly, sold it recently. Your review echoed my own experience - thanks for being so honest.
I've watched a lot of reviews from you guys, and this one is among my favorites. I appreciate reviewers who point out the good, and the bad, about games. And based on my limited experience with this game, you are spot on here.
This is my favorite review in a long time. Of late, I have sensed fatigue, even in the videos of games you guys seem to really like. Quinns, you were in spectacular form. I wonder if just the ideas and scope of this game, were enough to spark the passion, or maybe you're finally getting enough rest? Thank you for what you do, S&S is truly top shelf.
Always top notch entertainment, Shutup & Sitdown is a national treasure.
I like Quinns
"It's like The Martian, but instead of farming potatoes, you are a potato." - Killed me, haha
this sounds like it mite work as a computer game more then a board game:)
As someone who is currently programming a systems-heavy strategy game, I concur. When Quinns was listing all the things that the players had to do to progress a turn, all I could think was "this would go so much faster with a computer handling the rules".
Agreed. There's a lot of boardgames that would do so, so much better as computer games simply because the computer can handle things that would be time consuming and tedious to do in real life in less than a second. Also, there's never any issue of "Oh did I do that right?" because the computer game wouldn't let you make an illegal move.
I actually thought of Paradox upcoming game "Surviving Mars" the whole time. Pretty diffrent game, but still.
it kind of sounds like it might of worked well as a computer game in 1996
I feel that way about quite a few modern board games. I don't hate complexity per se but, when the game wants me to constantly play on its behalf, that's where some automation comes in handy...
Everytime i watch a SU&SD video i just want to hug them all and tell them i love them.
at some point, when enough people are having the same issues, you have to admit that something 'might' be unclear. I remember someone telling me that I was an idiot because I didn't read the rules enough to understand that in Terraforming Mars, I could play more than 2 actions per generation. Sure enough, it's one of the most misunderstood rules that a LOT of solo players have had issues with.
Hunger makes gluttons of us all.
Itches make scratchers of us all.
My biggest issue with the vast majority of coop games is that they are essentially solo games. The coop aspect usually ends up with more experienced players dictating their actions through the less experienced players. For me they work better solo or with just 2 players. My main issue with robinson crusoe was the fact that often you knew exactly what needed to be done but it just isnt interesting when you have no real choice other than to do the essential thing to survive.
Yeah I really wanted to like Robinson Crusoe but it felt like there was such a precise answer to the puzzle and a lot of replays and luck (or reducing the difficulty by taking extra starting items) were required to win that I couldn't have imagined it working well with a group.
This is a very late comment but might be worth checking out Escape the curse of the temple for a very different (and very fun!) Co op vibe. I think that's different as really it's not about solving a hard puzzle but about rushing around working on the same thing (sometimes solo sometimes together) with everyone rolling dice like mad and then needing help from other players if you get your dice locked. The curses expansion (which comes with the main game) has some excellent twists aswell.
It's a good one as really quick to play and teach and you always play at least 2 games of it
0:28 Here in England, where English was invented, we rather say "That takes the biscuit". This is because we don't find the word biscuit to be "tough to spell" like in other, not native English dialects.
This turned into a really convincing recommend for Space Alert.
Glad you outed this Quinns as I was considering it. Good stuff SU&SD!
You can tell this is by Ignace trziwek (I think i spelled that right). Each player has 2 action pawns? Huge scenario sheets? Too much to do? Exploring outside of your camp and a morale track? Incredibly complicated? This seems like a reimplementation of Robinson Crusoe adventures on the cursed island. But whereas Robinson Crusoe is one of my favorite games ever, I trust su&sd’s opinion.
My only comment: Steam geezer put an image in my head that I won't soon forget.
Yes, I watch SDSU to be entertained. And, yes, I watch to learn about board games. But I also feel like I'm learning a foreign language. Today's British word - gee-ser. It doesn't mean "cranky old man." Nope, it means guy-ser. Who knew? I figure after a few more seasons, I'll be able to visit the UK without a phrase book.
Golden line that got me:
"Imagine the Martian with Matt Damon, but instead of farming potatoes he is a potato." 🥔
if Matt Damon wasn't farming potatoes he was a potato...
"Holy Potatoes! We're in Space?!" the game
Don't be silly Quinns there's no real fighting going on in professional wrestling!
Robinson C you start with little and craft/ find more, which is rewarding. This game just takes things away from you. Who thought that was fun?
Does sound like a daft idea for a game. You’d want the colony to progress somehow, not just constantly degrade.
@2:27 either a super fast spider, or an erratic fly on the ground in the bottom left corner. 😃
I had to come and watch your reviews after my first games. I've watched Watch it played How to play and Game play videos when they came out and was hyped for the game. Although too expensive for me at the time. Well I bought it at the store yesterday for a third of the usual price. Took the whole afternoon to learn the rule, thankfully Watch it played video is indexed, still it was hard/long to find some answers. I don't see myself ever teaching it to anyone else, it is so hard and complicated and so many component to setup; but as a solo play, i did enjoy the puzzle of Last Martian. Your review is very on point!
I asked one of the guys at Portal's booth, "If I own Robinson Crusoe, why should I buy this?" and he really couldn't answer the question adequately. This looks like an even more complex version of that game which is already complex enough, has a lousy rulebook, an enormous upkeep, too many components, and is also most fun to play alone. I do, however, really enjoy the game, but I don't like having to go back to relearn the rules. So, if I go any length of time without playing it, it's a long length of time. Like parsecs of time.
As a person that manages complex, interconnected systems for a living, this sounds awesome...
My anxiety levels have maxed out. Actually playing the game might cost me my pancreas.
If you like the mechanical theme of this sounds like Rimworld is the way to go. (Computer game)
You might take a look at Robinson Crusoe board game. Seems similar, but there is no app, there is better manual and last year new expantion came out - so maybe review even? As awlays - very entertaining video! Never stop!
www.shutupandsitdown.com/review-robinson-crusoe-adventure-on-the-cursed/
Is not about mars though..
@2:17......You have a fly in your flat, mate.
I think this has answered my question of this or Robinson Crusoe. Especially since that game received a lovely second edition recently.
RC isn't much more streamlined, tbh. It's better, certainly, but unless you're captivated by long rulebooks, spending an hour getting your group up to speed on it, and not being able to play with anyone who has played one less game than you (because you MUST alpha-game it), and planning to spend five sessions figuring it out, give that a pass as well.
@@ichifish I never played First Martians so I can't really compare RC to it. However, I strongly disagree with your comment.
I will grant that RC is a difficult game to learn from scratch, and it did take me over an hour to figure it out (including my time spent watching a TH-cam tutorial from Watch It Played). However, teaching it to new players was far simpler and a lot quicker.
You're also *profusely* wrong about having to alpha game RC. The issue with alpha gaming is when the same person constantly figures out the "optimal action" that everyone else should take. With RC, there usually isn't an optimal action or the optimal action isn't clear at all. Sure, everyone might agree that fire wood needs to be collected, but should everyone focus on building up their shelter, creating new tools, or exploring more land? It's not clear at all. Yes, you can still have alpha gamers in RC. However, if you do have an alpha gamer problem with RC, then you're probably having an alpha gamer problem with that person in all co-op games with open communication. At that point, it's an issue with that particular gamer and not the game.
There are so many people who enjoy RC that it's clearly a good game that works for so many people. So, telling others they shouldn't buy the game just because you personally didn't enjoy it is a quite arrogant.
Very helpful review. The game seems like a step downwards from Robinson Crusoe despite being hyped otherwise in terms of being a fun and immersive experience.
The green/red LEDs thing doesn't just seem annoying for people who have difficulty distinguishing those colours, but outright hostile because of the sheer number of those tokens.
I really dislike when board games require you to use an app.
Behemotty11 one of the reasons I like tabletop games is to get away from screens for a while
@Behemotty11 As Agwblack mentioned, one of the reasons I play board games is to get away from things like my computer, TV, phone, etc. Also, I don't own a tablet which, as mentioned in the review, could make it very hard to use the app on my cell phone. If the game has random events or whatever why not just have those printed on cards or have a dice roll on a chart or something? It's much quicker to draw a card off a deck than it is to pick up my phone, press the power button, enter my password to unlock it, navigate through the app to the appropriate section and finally get a random event. Leaving the device on the whole time can lead to the battery draining which happened while we were playing Mansions of Madness at a friend's place for a game day. We had to move the table and pin one poor soul between the table and a wall because the charging cord for his tablet wasn't long enough to reach from the power outlet to the table in the middle of the dining room.
I don't mind if board/card games have a companion app that is used for record keeping outside of the game. However it is so quick and easy to take a picture of the game state with my phone for when we pick the game up later or jotting down a note or two to stick in the box that most of the time I'd pass on using the app anyway.
So some real quick things:
- Yes, the barrier of cost/access. I don't have a tablet. If I did, it might not be the right kind of tablet.
- Sometimes an app is just used to do something you can do with a deck of cards and a booklet, which is a bit needless
- Installing/keeping an app up to date can be a barrier to a game's long life. Small annoyance but one that might not be necessary if the app isn't actually providing more depth to the game
- Apps create a head-down experience - you're more likely to have moments where players are caring about what's on the app rather than what's on the table in front of them
- Apps are often made with bad user interface/user experience; this is a problem board games already have and having the same developers make an app often highlights this problem
- As mentioned, avoiding screens is something some people want to do. An app makes that a problem.
None of this is to say apps are bad but they aren't an inherent good and complaints about them are not inherently meaningless. I mean, some of these things apply to other mechanical decisions like soundtracks or real time play. But they are things worth understanding, and an app introduces a ton of new things a developer can get wrong.
Remember when Quinns was talking about how the game was a puzzle box? That's kind of what apps do to board games... There are some aspects of the game that are simply hidden from the players that get thrown in their laps. Mansions of Madness does the same thing- combat involves using the app which tells you what to do and what the consequences are, which prevents players from properly strategizing those aspects of the game.
Also, remember the part where he talks about "What happens when the O2 meter is at 0?" Well, I bet that there ARE consequences for that happening... but they are hidden in the app. (Hence why the app needs to know that information)
I actually don't mind apps for board games, but they can make navigating these games more difficult.
Agree with you - I really dislike board games with apps. The only game I have which will have an app is Star Wars: Imperial Assault but in this case I think it's a good idea because I don't want to play the Imperial player and no one else in my group does either but the game is awesome in itself without the app.
Thank you so much for this review. Now, I know I'm not alone. After an hour and half of set up I was stoked to play this beautiful co-op game with two other players. However, the app was lame, the rounds were confusing and by sol 5, I found myself scheming to starve all the astronauts just to put us out of the bumbtastic misery that was first martians. I still couldn't manage that. It may have put me off of co-op games for good if I hadn't seen this review.
I am now informed, educated and entertained re First Martians. Thanks.
This video had my family rolling! Picked the game up at a yard sale for $10, might give it a try, but we'll probably all die in a rover crash!
I just got this for 10 euro new just for the lozenges and cubes. After unboxing it I understand why it did not succeed. So much complexity it intimidates and only 3 plastic bags for a game with a gazilion different components and tedious setup - my head hurts and I've got better things to do. Gotta bathe the dog before winter comes.
i dont play board gamess but still watch your videos
Two minutes and thirty six seconds into the video I'm already saying I ain't got no time for that.
This is 100% my experience playing this game. Glad I wasn't the one who bought it.
Chiming in with a comment on a 6 year old video but...historically, it was fascinating watching the fall of this game. Within months of release, its reputation became very negative and copies were selling for around $10 a pop or less on the aftermarket. That's almost low enough just to buy for the components. It was crazy.
I’d be worried about them withdrawing App support. But you’re right, the counters alone should be worth $10.
I understand that keeping equipment in repair would be a vital part of running a Mars colony, but do we need to create a board game about it?
2:30 bottom left corner of screen: WASPPPPP AAAA!!!!!!!!
My eyes now have a perma-glaze from that rules explanation
That's for the review. Just got this game for my birthday because a friend read the back of the box and it sounded great. I am hoping they maybe did some work to the app to improve things.
See, I largely agree with SUSD's review and opinions. This game indeed took me 2 views of Watch It Played 50 minute how-to-play video, a slow and long reading of the rules, another playthrough video and about 3-4 solo games to eventually learn First Martians. But now that I play intuitively, I love the game and the stories FM has to offer. I know the game has it's faults, but it remains one of my favorites after 30 plays. So it's been certainly been a weird one for me - indeed I love the first campaign story!
I will add: I've played exclusively solo late at night after kids were in bed. It's a great solo game but it would certainly be prone to an alpha-player problem with more players.
Oh, and I've also only played on 'Hard' since my 5th game - it is indeed crazy difficult.
Yes, I'm with you. Definitely was tough to get through all the rules and some of them are a bit fiddly. But once I felt I had a strong handle on it, this game became one of my favorites. It's too bad some things weren't explained better. It really needs a 2.0.
"Fear makes cowards of us all" Hahaha
The moment you mentioned that the game needed an app to play really encapsulates how difficult it is to learn.
This game sounds like it would be an amazing computer game. If all the upkeep and all the token moving and all the stretching and shifting and what not was masked behind lovely cutscenes and automatic happening, if all the rules were handled automatically, and all you had to do was roll some digital dice and make some interesting lozenge choices, this seems like it would be incredible.
Seriously, I've NEVER seen a board game that seems like it would benefit SO much from being turned into a really nice computer game. And I don't mean "a computer game based on this game." I mean a computerized, digitized version of this game, like the Terra Mystica or Waterdeep or, specifically, the Pathfinder Adventures games that are available on Steam. Specifically that last one is a great example of what can be done with just a little coat of paint and a few simple cutscenes.
So yeah, I REALLY hope that this game sees a computerized version of this game. I'd buy it in a heartbeat.
This isn't the first game you've reviewed that I've had this thought about, but, maybe it wants to be a kind of computer game rather than a board game? That is, a game, maybe on Facebook or something, where the computer deals with all the admin and you can just focus on the puzzles and making decisions on the campaign. It would make learning the ruleset so much easier.
Space Alert is indeed a great game.
Legacy of the Stars My favourite co-op! Never stops entertaining and the chaos is hilarious. Just that the game resolve application is a must when you have learned the game.
As much as people don't like games that require apps, that's how much I don't like games that require soundtracks. Just personal preference. I like programmed movement games. It's fun to watch the chaos, but I'd rather play as robots fighting each other or at least attempting to do so, and at my leisure.I'd love to play Space Alert as long as someone else was doing the setting up, playing of audio, and we were in a setting where we could actually hear the damn thing.
Billy Board Game with a Dream Yeah the whole setting the soundtrack and because i am the most english fluent player in our group i have to pay attention to it the whole time is pretty annoying. I guess as Rahdo talked about it in his 2.0 video Space Alert really needs a dedicated app to really shine.
Video would also help. If I need audio, I might as well have video. It makes it more accessible as well.
Another great video and I'm anxiously awaiting the next cameo of "Drunk Butler Quinns"!
This has to be the best game review I ever saw. Thank you for your honest and well reasoned review. I imagine there is pressure to give a big release game a good review but I think you truly do the creators a favor by so clearly pointing out the shortcomings. I seems like an upgrade of a few components and documentation could really elevate the experience. I also thought the many difficulties you encountered in your review could be seen as very real components of the atmosphere of survival in a martian colony. Thanks for a great review! Subscribed!
Great review. You really laid out the problems everyone is having with this came more concisely. In the end, I love the theme and scale of this game and I'd give it a chance until you described the stories in the game. Whether its from writing or just what comes up naturally during gameplay, the fluff of what you're doing has to be compelling and entertaining and it sounds like they missed that, causing the mechanical problems of the game to be front and center.
I had the same reaction to Robinson Crusoe. Seems really great, but it both times I pulled it out my group couldn't hack the ridiculously difficult ruleset.
I think he just summed up why I've gotten to the point where I'm done with coop games where a bunch of people are grinding against the game and there's nothing in there that gives each person a good chance to really strike out on their own, like Space Alert. It feels like it's less fun playing with a group, where you could be doing something where you're challenging each other, than it would be if you did it on your own.
Not buying this game will save me 2 months worth of Shut up and Sit Down donations :p Thanks for the review.
Phew.. glad I dodged that one. Nearly pre-ordered this.. but after my experiences with the first edition of Robinson Crusoe I knew I should hold out for the 2nd or 3rd edition.
wait.. Space Alert has a Campaign mode?!
Quinn's watch out! There is a wasp behind you! Bottom left corner 2:03,2:13,2:27
Albert Huebner and 2:17
Reference wasp. A measure for the amount of tension in the game.
Thank you so much for this review.
Will you guys be doing a review for Twilight Imperium 4th Edition?
They are releasing a documentary about Twilight Imperium, i'm fair certain they will make a review for 4th edition
Love it brutally honest review... that games looks pretty overwhelming.
yeah I bought it for $20 dollars and its on my table now for several hours trying to figure out the tutorial... I love the premise and play solo so I will get through it.
Yo, Spirit Island is a great heavy co-op. PEACE!
I am hopeful as someone in the group bought it so will try to make the best out of it. Thanks again for the great information on it and it looks like it could be really cool but it sounds like I should lower expectations a tad until the first play through or two :).
the mouseover video snippet on this one pretty much sums it all up...
Given that NASA prioritizes people with personalities that are easy-going and capable of working together even over expertise in the field due to their understanding of just how important being able to work together in high-stress situations is when you're millions of miles from any help, the idea that the astronauts would be having actual fistfights to the point of being injured is probably the most unrealistic, immersion-breaking, "I'm sorry this was supposed to be a sim of life on Mars?" thing about this game.
The fact we have astronauts that have gone crazy and done crimes are not that farfetched.
@@OverlordZephyros Citation needed.
@@Shenaldrac Anne McLain and Lisa Nowak come to mind. Who knows if there are others in hush hush situation.
@@OverlordZephyros Yes, and after Lisa Nowak, you know what they did? They actually decided to re-check and reexamine their selection process. Because NASA isn't made up of idiots, no matter how many Hollywood movies portray them and astronauts as such. No, the plot of Solaris will never happen, I'm sorry. That's not how things work.
It's fine if a game wants to take a more cinematic take on colonization. But when a game is selling itself on immersion and being a gritty simulation... then having astronauts starting fist fights like they're your average reality TV contestant is going against that.
@@Shenaldrac the point is that no matter how much training, conditioning, screeing, etc we all humans in the end, humans are not perfect and stuff like this will happen eventually. Especially when we start to send more of them.
I was starting to think it was me. For this game I had to search for rule answers on the Interenet constantly. I didn't have nowhere near so many essential doubts with Robison Crusoe 1st ed manual
"Fear makes cowards of us all" is among the most breathtakingly terrible writing I've ever heard.
So its basically Robinson Crusoe with extra steps.
We bought the pre-order version. It hit the table, we tried to work it out for a few days, and we packed it up so we could play something else. Since with love Robinson Crusoe, I thought this would be more of the same but with better rules and an app to guide you through. The app here just makes things more confusing.
I feel as though they need to fix the app so it helps rather than hinders.
"how on Earth did you get to the astronaut control?", but you are in Mars, don't you?
This game seemed to have many similarities to Robinson Crusoe which I played many times and never ended up liking because of all the stuff the game was trying to accomplish. Its the opposite of an elegant design. Then I googled and voila, it's the same designer
not just the same designer, it's basically a re-implementation of Robinson Crusoe.. Basically Robinson Crusoe 2.0 with app. This was never a secret, and is pretty well known before hand. I like Robinson Crusoe, but I agree with Quinns, it's almost best as a solo game, or maybe as a 2 player game. But I agree with you Robinson Crusoe has so many moving parts, it's a wonder why it couldn't be stream lined.
Ah but I love Robinson Crusoe. I play it all the time for just a challenging survival game on an island. But this theme is lame; and I'm an app developer and it looks like their app is clunky. I really can't be excited about this one.
AMProductions I heard the first edition of Robinson Crusoe was plagued with rule issues however I bought the second edition and had no issues whatsoever (and from what I read the re-release sorted everything out). Here’s hoping this gets a ‘second edition’ as I love Crusoe and like the idea of more of the same... in space.
I spotted the Conan boxes on your shelf. Do you plan to review the expansions (Nordheim, Stygia and Khitai) ? They're great, I really like what they did with the special rules, and the maps and minis are beautiful.
OK, the potato joke made me crack up.
love this ! my uncle and I used to play this asll the time :) !
I love your "I love Rock and Roll" cover.
They did it again in their Terraforming Mars video :P
Scathing. Taking this one off my wish list.
I would love to see the metrics for this video. How many people kept watching past the initial "this sucks" warning?
I did, because shutupandsitdown is always entertaining enough for my time.
I watched the video to its end. A simple "this sucks" is not enough for me, I want to know why it sucks.
One of the most underrated games ever. It just shouldn't say 'adventures' on the cover. It is a hardcore, realistic simulation of trying to survive on mars. If you are looking for smth like this it is awesome.
Would love to see a SU&SD Review and/or Plays of Space Alert!
th-cam.com/video/k0dySBa68uA/w-d-xo.html
Shut Up & Sit Down Amazing, thanks. I love those early episodes.
Great review, as always! I've watched this game ramp up with a mix of anticipation and fear in equal measure and I suspect, based on your review, all of my worst fears have been confirmed... perhaps an expansion of RC would have been a better bet, though I suspect there was one eye on "those who bought RC will buy this". Sad to say but I think it's a Money-grab...
Love the videos guys!
Looks awesome, but if you had trouble learning it then we can just forget it lol
Totally unrelated but at 2:15 to 2:20 theres a bug crawling around on the floor... just wanted to mention
I'm glad I stopped here before the store.
I just like hearing them say 2017
Hard pass. Got it. Thanks.
Also, didn't know you had a podcast. Subscribed.
Jonathan A You know how I know you didn't watch the whole video?
Jordan Rudderham You assume too much. Don't do that.