I was tuning at a nursing home once, and a lady in a wheel chair rolled up next to me and said, "Nobody's going to want to listen to you playing like that."
One may be reminded of Ambrose Bierce's definition of a piano: An instrument of torture, which is used by depressing the keys on the instrument and the spirits of its audience.
That's why the 12 note keyboard design is a sham. It's based on fifths (3/2)^12 ~ 2^7 The better way to go is to use more than 12 notes (i.e. extended just intonation).
@@teddydunn3513 It's all arbitrary. An octave is twice the frequency then how many notes to make available inside an octave interval is arbitrary. 12 ? why not 11 or 13 ? One reason is human anatomy. We have 5 fingers per hand. The other, the most important reason is constructive overtones. Depending on how many notes are chosen and placed, their overtones can have interesting sympathetic resonance to each other or not. But the closer apart notes are (the more notes per octave), the least likely that they will have interesting overtones at audible frequencies. Mathematically 440 * 2^(1/12*k) with k=0,1,..,11 gives the 11 notes in equal temperament in the first octave above A 440Hz . But every note will have natural overtones at integer multiples. So then, immediately we notice that the fifth has several overtones that closely matches an overtone of the fundamental : 2^(1/12*7) *3 = 5.9932 which is close to the 6 overtone of the fundamental, 2^(1/12*7) *2 = 2.996 6 is close to the 3rd overtone of the fundamental. In fact all odd multiple overtones of the fifth are close to an overtone of the fundamental. Now if we look at the major third overtones still in equal temperament, they fails to closely match fundamental overtones except the 4 overtone. In fact the perfect fourth give much better result: 3, 6 , 9 overtones etc all are close to a fundamental overtone. Not as good as the fifth but much better than the third. From this we can see why the fifth, the fourth are the most important intervals in equal temperament, and the major third is not. Now in well temperament the third is adjusted to have more overtones that are sympathetic to the fundamental overtones but you can only do that in one key. Say C major with its third E. But now you loose the nice fifth in A major which is E and also in the key of E, B is no longer a nice fifth. So that gives special and unique character to each key. That means some compositions will be specially created for a key to take advantage of the unique interval overtones match. It also means if you transpose a composition it will sound different because the intervals are not the same. So what about using more than 12 notes. Well, as i said earlier, notes closer together will have matching overtones at much higher frequencies possibly outside the human audio spectrum. it means they will bring nothing but filling to a composition. Then, what about fretless instruments able to adjust any interval or swooping notes. It is clearly an interesting effect. On keyed instruments like a piano, that is not possible. In conclusion 12 notes is not as arbitrary as one might think before doing this analysis. More notes (narrower intervals) do not bring more meaning or feel to the music, it really depends on human ear highest audible frequency for overtones. And it seems that the old well temperament tuning brought uniqueness to each key and a better third than equal temperament.
At Bach's time there were a number of tempered systems in use and each were different based on who and when the instrument (be it organ, harpsichord, etc.) was built and who tuned it last. Meantone was still around and of course there are a few different types of meantone.
+Marc Allen :: Yes I think you and a few more are the only ones! But it is interesting that you want them bottom-to-top. His touch (striking on the keys) is examplary, clear and crisp. I wonder why he sometimes hesitates as if he changes his plan/text, but I guess it is because he has worked with tuning and *not* is used to giving speeches :)
The hesitations are due to not having the neccessary knowledge of his subject. A late collegue of mine was called up to serve in France during WWI. He spoke French & they gave him 3 stripes. He had time to meet a French Piano Tuner from whome he learned that they used an A fork to set concert pitch whereas in the UK we use the C; that is C.522 and A is A.440. On one occassion the order from above was to make a strategic withdrawall. Having French, Billy took charge and they did their withdrawal by train!
No you're not, Marc. And the point that Alfa and Ronald are missing is that it would have been much more useful had he played the interval from bottom to top since our brains will recognize a major third much clearer going up ward and it is the difference in that interval sound with the two types of tuning which is the focus of this video.
She's sitting next to an overhead projector (under 30? Ask your parents what they were!). She was apparently there to swap transparencies during his talk.
if you take two equally tempered keyboards and offset their tuning by about 14 cents its possible to play a just third, a near just minor 6th, a near just minor third and a just major 6th in every key signature by playing across the keyboards for these intervals or any of their octave voicing's, individual hands would be restricted to harmonize only octaves fifths fourths and 2nds and semitones. a single one dimensional row is not enough to express real temperament because temperament is at least a two dimensional problem, (recessed black notes are a result of historic accident, originally there were only the white notes so that does not count as "two dimensional", the concept is still a one dimensional row of notes like a single string that can be stopped in more than one place at once). Bowed strings and fretted instruments have two dimensional playing systems and do have unisons, they may also be pitch bent at will. Two keyboard manuals offer many technique advantages including interchanging melody between the hands for greater speed and accuracy rather than restricting it to the right hand only which is slow and inaccurate, there are few double manual pianos but an organ or harpsichord with two keyboard manuals could easily do this. and provide just intonation in all key signitures
Two reasons. First, not even every interval within one key can be simultaneously in tune. For instance, say your song is in G. Then generally you need, at minimum, to be able to play D, C, Em, and Bm chords. It is impossible to get these chords to simultaneously be in tune. Second, changing keys within a song is an important part of musical composition.
Very good point. Modulating is the enemy of non just tuning. Or maybe it adds character to have weird sounding chords lacking matching overtones with their fundamental.
I am baffled with this explanation of equal temperament, with out any mention of the harmonic series. I have been tuning, part time, for over 40 years and developed a class for adults in our Learning In Retirement program. I call it: "An Astronomer, A Quantum Physicist and A Piano Tuner Walked Into A Bar . . . " One of my first demonstrations in the class is to ask, "How many notes can you play on one string?" Usually there is along pause and then some brave soul says, "One!" I then push down a bass not very gradually to lift the damper. Then I play major chord in second position several octaves up. (Low C and G C E three octave up for instance.) I just give the chord a quick chunk and the notes continue ringing until I release the damper or reach in to muffle it. I emphasize that the chords that give us so much pleasure are sounding all around us in reeds, bells, caves, guy wires. It is also this harmonic series that gave Niels Bohr the insight he needed to figure out the "shells" in which electrons circle the atom's nucleus, probably the most important break through in chemistry and physics! Every string in a string instrument is moving in a very complex pattern - not just side to side. It is circular and it emits frequencies that are twice the fundamental, three times, four times, 5X 6X 7X and 8X, just for starters. These are the same notes that brass instruments have. All the bugle calls are based on these intervals: octave, fifth, forth to second octave, major third, minor third, somewhere between a 6th and a 7th and another octave. The octave is a sound twice as fast as the starting note. Since there are 12 intervals between the octave, synthesizers actually have an approximation of the 12th root of two, to get a mathematical equal temperament! Tuners use a very bizarre series of methods comparing interference beats for a wide variety of intervals, though. The effect is very close to the same thing. But it is the only way to play in any key and get the same sound - absolutely necessary for Jazz, and all modern compositions, However, the musicians of Bach's era were scandalized. They said, "Oh Great!! Now everything is out of tune!!" We simply do not here the rapid fluttering of thirds and sixths (about 8 beats per sec). It sounds right to our ears because we have grown up with it. But musicians in many cultures have very different intervals that "sound right" to them! Dave Lea - Fish Creek, WI
Makes me think that modern jazz with emphasis on the 9th's and 11th and 13ths is really a product of the equal tempered tuning system -- which is based on ALL the fifths and fourth being accurate and the thirds being "just a little off".
For instance, if we try to tune a D minor 15 chord, the top D and the bottom D would be a whole syntonic comma away from eachother when the distance between them is octave reduced.
The lady that I encountered was definitely more blunt. She came wheeling down the hall with her head to one side in a rather threatening mode. I was tuning the upper register at the time. As she got about half way there the nurses aid came up to her and said. "How are you doing there, honey?" She kept her eye on me as she said, "I'm just fine, but that feller there don't play the piano no better than I do!!"
The book :Temperament: How Music became a Battleground for the Great Minds of Western Civilization" by Stuart Isacoff is also great resource and talks about these same issues.
you mean a diminished perfect fourth but then you could call it a perfect third (even though there is no such name) because it will have a lot more matching overtone than the just tuning third.
Since changing key just raises or lowers the scale as a whole, why would a composer be so anxious to give up better harmonics to have every key available?
excellent question, i believe the answer is because it allowed compositions to be transposed to suit vocal range of an individual. Or was it just the complexity of tuning that made it impossible to have an orchestra all tuned in non equal tuning.
@@goognamgoognw6637 I have read a little about this subject, and watch some videos on it too, but I haven't seen anyone really explain it clearly. As an outsider who was never in the field, I see the study of music as a little bit of logic, and a lot of voodoo.
The organs in medieval Flanders already were tuned equally tempered: Simon Stevin wrote about it. That is why Bach wrote "The Well Tempered Piano", since his place of birth was just miles away from the "Fläming" a Flemish region in Germany(where Martin Luther was born).
+davieVmonster With Das Wohltemperierte Klavier Bach did mean the equally tempered scale indeed. Simon Stevin, a Flemish mathematician, astronomer, engineer and musical scientist, published a book in Utrecht "Over het Afstemmen van Orgelen ende Clavecymbelen" in 1600, showing the equal temperament, which he knew from his birth city, Brugge. Bach often went playing on the Flemish organs, just miles away from his house, in the Flemming(Flemish region in Germany). The Equally Tempered Scale in general, made already part of the Flemish Civilisation, since the 11th century.
+Alter Kater yes, I am and a very much adored one! Did you actually read what I was writing about Simon Stevin and the medieval Flemish well-tempered scale? Any tuning, other than equal or well-tempered, is a compromise. Only in equal you can modulate in all chromatic scales. Besides, there is also a spiritual side to the Wohl-Temperierte scale. The number 12. I can tune in any system I did many experiments. With my ensemble I was playing medieval music in natural scale, which up to now rarely is done consequently or just wrongly. I know what you people try to say. The best specialists on the field of tuning worldwide say: "there is no explanation without mentioning God"
+Alter Kater you are sure but you don't know! that is for me the essence of your comment. I do know that equal temperament scales, up to Beethoven's time, weren't exatly 100% equal. To just whether or not my tunings are adorable or not: people that follow their heart and their ears, they like it! The stretching and brilliance you are talking about is about enharmonicity. It is a different subject. Quickly you take that track to so called 'proove' I'm 'wrong' with that you can seduce the ignorant only, man! Are you also a flat earther maybe?
+Alter Kater in any scale you can go through any key but at times it might even blow your pants off - I'm talking about equally going thru all keys without giving priority
I'm still wondering how to adjust my Roland RD700GX in order to play Bach's Well-tempered Klavier on it as Bach heard it. After watching this video, I still dont get it: did Bach use Mean-tone? It sounds absolutely horribly, those preludes in csharp-major.
there was a study done years back statistically analysing the intervals [and the frequency of their use!] used throughout the Bach 48 to determine [ie work backwards] what tuning system Bach used -- wow, So many theories. The WTC shows that Bach used some system of well-[presumably not-equal]-temperament, since that's what he called the compilation. In a way the two sets were an advertisement of how sophisticated a tuning he had devised! well-temperament allowed most keys to be used, yet retained key-colour and individuality; not to mention avoiding the complete out-of-tuneness of ET. I wonder what system PDQ used in his 1995-discovered work: the Short-Tempered Clavier :-)
Is a "pure third" like the 5th partial? Is it just multiplying the frequency by 5/4? The way I understand it, historically that third (which is 15 cents lower than the third in 12-ET, I think) was considered more desirable, but of course (5/4)^3=125/64, and an octave is 128/64, so an octave based on that definition is problematic. Is this right?
Sharps and flats only have meaning and a purpose because the staff is not complete or uniform. If we used a huge staff that had a single line or space for each and every pitch, we wouldn't need key signatures or sharps & flats. A major to major, or a minor to minor key change only increases or lowers all the pitches by the same amount. I guess that's perceptable in contrast within a single piece of music. Major to minor, or minor to major will obviously make a big difference tho.
One fact is that At Any Time very few tuners can actually tune a correct equal temperament. So then what would they be tuning.? Certainly not a Well temperament. There are many different tunings. In the dozens, I am sure. Few of them named or noted because the subject is a specialty unto it-self.
+anisuthideyakoindu :: I am glad you came in with that comment. I have been working with music much of my life, and have been tuning my pianos for 46 years, in the beginning because the block had a crack and a number of pins were loose. I got many directions from the tuners I had until one said "why did you call me?" - but still! I can learn and improve, some may say minute details which does not matter much. An example: My fifths in the bass annoyed me and I found out that they were not stretched enough. Initially (I remember - 46 years ago) I stretched the bass tuning by listening each one to middle register (major) chords, but on the current piano for some reason that began to be difficult for me. I am not a professional tuner and I have decided to get help from the local concert-qualified tuner - if he is willing to help me.
This is also the reason when saying that Händel just A4=422.5Hz as his A4 and comparing it to A4=422.5Hz in Equal temperament is wrong. Händel did not use equal temperament... With his tuning system his A4 would be at least 10 cents flat (meantone) in relation to equal temprement. So with equal temperament a A4=425Hz is correct for Händel assuming he was using meantone. This makes his choral works much easier than modern A4=440Hz.. GOing down to "baroque pitch" A4=415Hz either with 12-TET or meantone is not right.. Certain pitch areas are not natural for the voice.. THey are transitional regions.. I would say that modern orchestres A4=440Hz to 445Hz (or 100 cents down at G#=415Hz to 420Hz) with 12-TET represents such as range .. Notes are placed very bad. Passaggios lie at the wrong place.. Opera in 443Hz sound bad to my ears.. The singers need to change reigster all the time.. And the opera houses can't find enough good dramatic singers for Pucini, VErdi etc. The "color" is not right.. THey have to have a lyrica baritone sing a part meant for a dramatic baritone etc.. Former European pitch at A4=435Hz is the highest healthy pitch for heavy voices as it limits early register shift and still sound "exciting": It still has a little lift.. Put your A4=431/432Hz with 12-TET and your passaggios are clean.. Notes are divided properly.. As opera star Carlo Bergonzi said it once in an interview "Verdi knew voices".. He recommended A4=432Hz because that is the natural tuning pitch for A4. Verdis choral works works best at A4=432Hz in 12-TET, Operatic pieces depending on the "color" or vibe of the piece lies between A4=432Hz and A4=437Hz.. In my book modern A4=440Hz should be replaced ASAP with 437Hz..(-11.85 cents) as 440-443Hz causes too much register shift.. People constansly sing flat by some 8 cents when fatigue starts setting in, in a pop or rock band as 438Hz is the upper limit for the voice.. ..
I'm sorry for not being quicker to thank you for your kind reply. I need to play around w/ the math of various pitches and how they relate to others in an octave to be able to understand your explanation. As for why composers want to change keys, it still makes no sense to me, you just go up or down.
To put equal temperment in simple terms. You cannot tune all intervals purely and acquire a good-sounding piano for classical literature in the last 200 years. It would actually sound dissonant and discordant. In equal temperment, all 12 semi-tones in an octave have the same ratio (relationship). That means in order to play in all 12 tonalities, also referred to as keys, and have the chords in the tonalities sound similarly in feel, you have to narrow all the perfect fiths by a hair from pure, widen all of the perfect fourths by a hair, narrow the minor thrids a hair from pure and widen the major thirds a hair from pure. EXAMPLE: If you were to tune four consecutive minor thirds purely, the octave from that bottom and top note would have a discordant widened beat. The goal is to tune all octaves as purely as possible but we may actually stretch them ever-so-slightly as well. It's the best comprimise and the ultimate tuning system we have today. All of the intervals in an equal temperment piano are in a sense, slightly out of tine, but acceptable. Tuning a piano in equal temperment will also make the piano a lot more stable and less likely to go out of tune over time because the same tensions are applied to the strings at all times.
Yes, I agree that equal temperament is the best compromise if you want all keys to sound the same. But while the fifths and fourths of equal temperament are, as you say, only a "hair" off the pure intervals (fifths are two cents or hundredths of a semitone flat, fourth two cents sharp), the thirds are a lot worse than that: the equal tempered major third is fourteen cents sharp and the minor third seventeen cents flat, enough to make them sound really dreadful in comparison to the pure intervals. That's why singers and string quartets, and other variable pitched sources of sound, rarely or never produce equal tempered thirds.
Larry Ellis There is no one being honest who would complain about a well regulated beautifully tuned Steinway D being played by (insert your favorite pianist) in a proper acoustic environment.
Could he not use fewer, clearer words (and a little math) instead of the fuzziness? I understand the technical details of how tuning works, and he does not explain it well.
In the closest cases it's more of a "feel" than a "hear". There will be fluctuating "beats" (which are places where the sound waves cancel each other out) and the closer you get to a "well" tuning, (and even more so in unison between two identical notes) the beats recur at a slower rate which can be heard if you listen really closely. But he doesn't do a very good job of explaining this in the video
I've a question. Suppose we have an instrument that can do Just M3 for all combinations, will there be any difference in colour in different keys? Then there is no point of playing in different keys right?
Right! In the just temperament with only pure thirds is no key characteristics. The key characteristic in the unequal temperament is based precisely on the different major thirds.
Once you do just temperament you loose the nice overtones that will match between the third and the fundamental in a chosen key. just temperament creates many matching overtones for the fifth and the fourth relative to the fundamental but only one for the major third. But it does it for all keys. It's like the communist temperament.
Most of Mozart's works had fewer black keys. He used C. F. G a lot for piano works (sonatas). But Haydn wrote works with more black keys. One unusual symphony is actually in B Major (46). th-cam.com/video/7BzZ1-GUJCc/w-d-xo.html Hogwood's performances of all this music may reflect older tuning practices? (a famous Haydn sonata, ending in a Minuet, was in C# Minor, with a middle movement in A Major.)
I appreciate the ideas behind this... I don’t believe the tuner here is necessarily espousing going back to historical tunings. These tunings are used for fixed pitch instruments. Do you think that instrumentalists of unfixed pitched instruments played things in these tunings? I doubt it. I imagine orchestras would tune to what sounded best. Not what was true to a fixed instrument tuning. so perhaps the colors of keys were not so different from each other with non fixed pitched instruments?
youngspiritchief nothing to do with, it has to do with how they tuned the notes. It was either in 5ths or in 3rd's in 3rds you were left with a severe dissonance called wolf tone
I had heard that the switch from 432 hz to 440 hz was due to the fact that a soloist playing a little more sharp sounded brighter. Over time, with soloists all trying to play a little more sharp than the orchestra, the pitch center raised. Probably just a fanciful notion, but I thought I would share it.
The piano was invented in 1701 ish. But it was not prominent until the very late 1700's or even 1800's.So eighteenth century tuners, if that was the culture, rather than tuning the instrument yourself, it would have been on clavichord and harpsichord. So the piano is still outputting a much different sound than the instruments of the day. Many performers didn't really care about tuning.
Perhaps they didn’t need to care so much because the tuning always sounded better. Modern equal temperament does not allow the modern piano to exploit its full potential.
It didn't seem to be as clear as it could've been, but a person can still learn something from several poor videos. I think the biggest hurdle in trying to understand music is that music people use horrible terminology for about everything they do. Plus they don't come clean about the shortcomings to their beloved system. For instance, a staff is brief, but it's obscure. A staff w/ a line for every pitch would be too big to play from, but it would be much easier to learn about music.
Andrew Field "Go get your piano tuner" "No more tuners" "..wha??" "No more tuners. I don't know if you know you've been gone awhile but I don't tune pianos anymore " "Ima just breaking your balls a little bit huggin and kissin, and you're gettin fresh on me"
I may be wrong but do not buy the pure M3. Why did they not use pure 5ths instead ? Temperament systems I have seen adressed cycles of 5ths only meantone sequences used thirds. What is the historical context for that affirmation ?
Yes, you are wrong. Pure fifths give us Pythagorean thirds, which sound even worse than equal tempered thirds. The historical context is that people wanted good thirds. It's a matter of taste.
@@therealzilch worse in which tonality ? as soon as you start modifying any notes away from equal tuning it will improve as many thirds as it will will degrade in other tonalities. This is a total sum system so i don't understand claiming to improve equal tuning without the improvment being restricted to certain keys.
@@goognamgoognw6637 It's only a "total sum system" if you want all keys to sound the same. So yes, you are right: the improvement of other tuning systems (say, 1/4 tone meantone) over equal temperament comes at the expense of restricting yourself to certain keys- depending also on how much dissonance you are willing to put up with in keys distant from the center keys. As I said, it's a matter of taste, and there's no "best" solution. Equal temperament, or something very close to it (say, Valotti) is preferable for, say, Chopin, and less equal temperaments for earlier music with fewer keys. But that's just my taste. Many people are not bothered by the rather dissonant major thirds of equal temperament, so they needn't worry about other systems. If you want to hear music with no temperament at all, here's an example in 11 limit just intonation. Warning: weird. soundcloud.com/scott-wallace-189088488/cauliflower cheers from rainy Vienna, Scott
@@therealzilch Thanks this is certainly an fascinating subject, i just have the right background that makes me very comfortable on the mathematical side of this discussion and i also have a solid musical education but it's the first time i get into that topic, so the semantic throws me off. What do you mean by "11 limit just intonation". That seems very interesting. Unlike most people the more mathematical it gets the easier to understand it will be for me. I quickly looked at the harmonics of the degrees (notes) in an mathematical exact equal temperament and immediately saw that the fifth degree harmonics, every odd harmonic very nearly match a fundamental harmonic for sympathetic resonance. I also found that for the fourth degree it's only every three harmonics matching a fundamental harmonic. And the major third only has one harmonic near which is why its rather dissonant. Also surprised that the tritone (the augmented fourth) is at sqrt(2) the frequency of the fundamental, which when you add another tritone above gives the octave. sqrt(2)*sqrt(2) = 2
@@goognamgoognw6637 It is indeed a fascinating and very complex subject- there are whole musical subcultures of tuning and temperament freaks with all kinds of different systems. Just intonation is tuning in intervals that are low-integer ratios, These ratios are thus all found in the geometric overtone series. The highest overtone I use in this tuning is 11 (discounting octaves). The actual tuning of the strings is 4 6 7 8 9 10 11 12. Yes, the equal tempered tritone divides the octave exactly in half. It's quite a bit more dissonant than the most consonant of the just "tritones", 7/5 and 10/7. The 11 harmonic is very strange to our ears. There are lots of interesting sounds out there. cheers from rainy Vienna, Scott
hear that XX century tuner pretending that those 5ths are all tempered alike, or that the M3 are smooth, when it is clearly not the case : app.box.com/s/206bq8wci3qq4pzs34u6 DO the modern tuners need to hear "wolf 5ths" to believe in key coloration ?
I cannot believe old time tuners where too deaf not to tune a good cycle of 5ths on the piano, that lend to some quasi equal temperament as soon it is done correctly. Even the modern versions of ET based on M3 progression give the 5ths different "colors" if that is the question. . Way more than what theory is stating. Key coloration is low but soon there if the tuner is attentive to that, and the best ones are, in my experience.
That's why the 12 note keyboard design is a sham. It's based on fifths (3/2)^12 ~ 2^7 The better way to go is to use more than 12 notes (i.e. extended just intonation).
Eben Goresco is another cowboy. A skilled tuner does not tune in thirds and sixths ! Forths & Fifths is the way. That will produce "equal temperament." Ebon has an American accent. That is not an excuse.
I don't believe this. As per tuning on the guitar, folk style with open strings, the thirds are often given slower speeds than equal temperament, but still Some speed, to feed the "motion" of the music. The music of the 18th century, when you tune to the way it was written, you always wind-up with some equal temperament Variant. Mr Goresko, you need to first learn to tune better, although you are not bad, really.
He cannot be serious! I expect the men in white coats any time. Standard pitch was established as travel across Europe was becoming normal and a new standard was essential.
440 hz was a concept supported by the Nazis .I`m just saying . Bach taught himself Chinese and prtended that he had invented Equal Temperament. It`s true because you read it on TH-cam .
john cadd the Nazis with the British leading up to the 2nd world war, came to be in 1953 or 53 because the Yanks wanted it so Brits ok with that. Mainly for recording quality. Although a standard international pitch was needed,,,,they should have used the human voice as the guide line.
Why even bother teaching Baroque? It drives thousand of children from music every year. 12 bar blues is enough for anybody. If you would teach kids rock in school, you would have to listen to the shit they pump out today.
qqqqq qqqqq why shouldn't you teach Baroque, Classical, Romantic? Why should you only teach them what's happening right Now? Why should you Not teach them how we got to the music today? Why should 12 bar blues be enough for anybody? If someone is Not interested into Baroque, Classical, Romantic or contemporary music then why should they Care about it?
I was tuning at a nursing home once, and a lady in a wheel chair rolled up next to me and said, "Nobody's going to want to listen to you playing like that."
LOL Mrs. Rachel Lynde got old. :P
That was a kind lady, trying to help you even if she didn't know.
tuning piano is like life.. it can never be perfect, just do the best you can... no two are alike.
Rubbish!
@@ronaldware1239 and you are the expert?
Define perfect tuning for piano and keyboard.
correct
One may be reminded of Ambrose Bierce's definition of a piano:
An instrument of torture, which is used by depressing the keys on the instrument and the spirits of its audience.
I'm constantly fighting with major 3rds in equal temperament.
!
Didn't expect to see you here, moot!
(oh this is dpc, i really need to make my own youtube account that i don't share with my brother lol)
That's why I can no longer bear the equal temperament.
That's why the 12 note keyboard design is a sham. It's based on fifths (3/2)^12 ~ 2^7
The better way to go is to use more than 12 notes (i.e. extended just intonation).
Temperament is a sham
@@teddydunn3513 It's all arbitrary. An octave is twice the frequency then how many notes to make available inside an octave interval is arbitrary. 12 ? why not 11 or 13 ? One reason is human anatomy. We have 5 fingers per hand. The other, the most important reason is constructive overtones. Depending on how many notes are chosen and placed, their overtones can have interesting sympathetic resonance to each other or not. But the closer apart notes are (the more notes per octave), the least likely that they will have interesting overtones at audible frequencies. Mathematically 440 * 2^(1/12*k) with k=0,1,..,11 gives the 11 notes in equal temperament in the first octave above A 440Hz . But every note will have natural overtones at integer multiples. So then, immediately we notice that the fifth has several overtones that closely matches an overtone of the fundamental : 2^(1/12*7) *3 = 5.9932 which is close to the 6 overtone of the fundamental, 2^(1/12*7) *2 = 2.996 6 is close to the 3rd overtone of the fundamental. In fact all odd multiple overtones of the fifth are close to an overtone of the fundamental. Now if we look at the major third overtones still in equal temperament, they fails to closely match fundamental overtones except the 4 overtone. In fact the perfect fourth give much better result: 3, 6 , 9 overtones etc all are close to a fundamental overtone. Not as good as the fifth but much better than the third. From this we can see why the fifth, the fourth are the most important intervals in equal temperament, and the major third is not.
Now in well temperament the third is adjusted to have more overtones that are sympathetic to the fundamental overtones but you can only do that in one key. Say C major with its third E. But now you loose the nice fifth in A major which is E and also in the key of E, B is no longer a nice fifth. So that gives special and unique character to each key. That means some compositions will be specially created for a key to take advantage of the unique interval overtones match. It also means if you transpose a composition it will sound different because the intervals are not the same.
So what about using more than 12 notes. Well, as i said earlier, notes closer together will have matching overtones at much higher frequencies possibly outside the human audio spectrum. it means they will bring nothing but filling to a composition. Then, what about fretless instruments able to adjust any interval or swooping notes. It is clearly an interesting effect. On keyed instruments like a piano, that is not possible.
In conclusion 12 notes is not as arbitrary as one might think before doing this analysis. More notes (narrower intervals) do not bring more meaning or feel to the music, it really depends on human ear highest audible frequency for overtones.
And it seems that the old well temperament tuning brought uniqueness to each key and a better third than equal temperament.
At Bach's time there were a number of tempered systems in use and each were different based on who and when the instrument (be it organ, harpsichord, etc.) was built and who tuned it last. Meantone was still around and of course there are a few different types of meantone.
Am I the only one bugged by his playing the interval from top to bottom instead of bottom to top?
+Marc Allen :: Yes I think you and a few more are the only ones! But it is interesting that you want them bottom-to-top. His touch (striking on the keys) is examplary, clear and crisp. I wonder why he sometimes hesitates as if he changes his plan/text, but I guess it is because he has worked with tuning and *not* is used to giving speeches :)
The hesitations are due to not having the neccessary knowledge of his subject. A late collegue of mine was called up to serve in France during WWI. He spoke French & they gave him 3 stripes. He had time to meet a French Piano Tuner from whome he learned that they used an A fork to set concert pitch whereas in the UK we use the C; that is C.522 and A is A.440. On one occassion the order from above was to make a strategic withdrawall. Having French, Billy took charge and they did their withdrawal by train!
No you're not, Marc. And the point that Alfa and Ronald are missing is that it would have been much more useful had he played the interval from bottom to top since our brains will recognize a major third much clearer going up ward and it is the difference in that interval sound with the two types of tuning which is the focus of this video.
What’s with the lady in the middle of the stage?
She's sitting next to an overhead projector (under 30? Ask your parents what they were!). She was apparently there to swap transparencies during his talk.
@@bburroughs 24 yr old here to propose that the age of those who don't know what overheads are are probably under 20 :)
if you take two equally tempered keyboards and offset their tuning by about 14 cents its possible to play a just third, a near just minor 6th, a near just minor third and a just major 6th in every key signature by playing across the keyboards for these intervals or any of their octave voicing's, individual hands would be restricted to harmonize only octaves fifths fourths and 2nds and semitones. a single one dimensional row is not enough to express real temperament because temperament is at least a two dimensional problem, (recessed black notes are a result of historic accident, originally there were only the white notes so that does not count as "two dimensional", the concept is still a one dimensional row of notes like a single string that can be stopped in more than one place at once). Bowed strings and fretted instruments have two dimensional playing systems and do have unisons, they may also be pitch bent at will. Two keyboard manuals offer many technique advantages including interchanging melody between the hands for greater speed and accuracy rather than restricting it to the right hand only which is slow and inaccurate, there are few double manual pianos but an organ or harpsichord with two keyboard manuals could easily do this. and provide just intonation in all key signitures
Two reasons. First, not even every interval within one key can be simultaneously in tune. For instance, say your song is in G. Then generally you need, at minimum, to be able to play D, C, Em, and Bm chords. It is impossible to get these chords to simultaneously be in tune. Second, changing keys within a song is an important part of musical composition.
Very good point. Modulating is the enemy of non just tuning. Or maybe it adds character to have weird sounding chords lacking matching overtones with their fundamental.
I am baffled with this explanation of equal temperament, with out any mention of the harmonic series. I have been tuning, part time, for over 40 years and developed a class for adults in our Learning In Retirement program. I call it: "An Astronomer, A Quantum Physicist and A Piano Tuner Walked Into A Bar . . . " One of my first demonstrations in the class is to ask, "How many notes can you play on one string?" Usually there is along pause and then some brave soul says, "One!" I then push down a bass not very gradually to lift the damper. Then I play major chord in second position several octaves up. (Low C and G C E three octave up for instance.) I just give the chord a quick chunk and the notes continue ringing until I release the damper or reach in to muffle it. I emphasize that the chords that give us so much pleasure are sounding all around us in reeds, bells, caves, guy wires. It is also this harmonic series that gave Niels Bohr the insight he needed to figure out the "shells" in which electrons circle the atom's nucleus, probably the most important break through in chemistry and physics!
Every string in a string instrument is moving in a very complex pattern - not just side to side. It is circular and it emits frequencies that are twice the fundamental, three times, four times, 5X 6X 7X and 8X, just for starters. These are the same notes that brass instruments have. All the bugle calls are based on these intervals: octave, fifth, forth to second octave, major third, minor third, somewhere between a 6th and a 7th and another octave. The octave is a sound twice as fast as the starting note. Since there are 12 intervals between the octave, synthesizers actually have an approximation of the 12th root of two, to get a mathematical equal temperament! Tuners use a very bizarre series of methods comparing interference beats for a wide variety of intervals, though. The effect is very close to the same thing. But it is the only way to play in any key and get the same sound - absolutely necessary for Jazz, and all modern compositions,
However, the musicians of Bach's era were scandalized. They said, "Oh Great!! Now everything is out of tune!!" We simply do not here the rapid fluttering of thirds and sixths (about 8 beats per sec). It sounds right to our ears because we have grown up with it. But musicians in many cultures have very different intervals that "sound right" to them!
Dave Lea - Fish Creek, WI
great and helpful video!
It's much better to use a clavichord or harpsichord for this sort of demo, though they're not so loud.
The late Sir Thomas Beecham used to say the sound of the harpsichord is like "two skeletons making love on a tin roof"
Makes me think that modern jazz with emphasis on the 9th's and 11th and 13ths is really a product of the equal tempered tuning system -- which is based on ALL the fifths and fourth being accurate and the thirds being "just a little off".
Which is so distinguishably different when compared with the just third
@@frfrchopin Exactly. The sound is totally different. The just ttempered third is "smooth" and the well tempered third is Wobbly and abrasive.
@@atwaterpub well tempered ≠ equal tempered, and just intonation, not just temperament, as nothing is tempered, but the context is understood.
For instance, if we try to tune a D minor 15 chord, the top D and the bottom D would be a whole syntonic comma away from eachother when the distance between them is octave reduced.
Interesting talk. Thanks for uploading.
His mouth noises are driving me fucking insane.
Sounds like my doorbell.
The lady that I encountered was definitely more blunt. She came wheeling down the hall with her head to one side in a rather threatening mode. I was tuning the upper register at the time. As she got about half way there the nurses aid came up to her and said. "How are you doing there, honey?" She kept her eye on me as she said, "I'm just fine, but that feller there don't play the piano no better than I do!!"
great demonstration!
The book :Temperament: How Music became a Battleground for the Great Minds of Western Civilization" by Stuart Isacoff is also great resource and talks about these same issues.
Thanks for sharing. I believe the tuning hammer is a fujan
Most interesting!
Baroque tempering on piano before it was invented *seems legit*
that was as clear as mud to me
That "final third" is not a "different quality". It's just not a third; it's a diminished fourth
Exactly
you mean a diminished perfect fourth but then you could call it a perfect third (even though there is no such name) because it will have a lot more matching overtone than the just tuning third.
fascinating!
Since changing key just raises or lowers the scale as a whole, why would a composer be so anxious to give up better harmonics to have every key available?
excellent question, i believe the answer is because it allowed compositions to be transposed to suit vocal range of an individual. Or was it just the complexity of tuning that made it impossible to have an orchestra all tuned in non equal tuning.
@@goognamgoognw6637 I have read a little about this subject, and watch some videos on it too, but I haven't seen anyone really explain it clearly.
As an outsider who was never in the field, I see the study of music as a little bit of logic, and a lot of voodoo.
The organs in medieval Flanders already were tuned equally tempered: Simon Stevin wrote about it. That is why Bach wrote "The Well Tempered Piano", since his place of birth was just miles away from the "Fläming" a Flemish region in Germany(where Martin Luther was born).
+anisuthideyakoindu But Equal temperament does Not equal Well Temperament. The first thing some-one who knows nothing about the subject at all says.
+davieVmonster With Das Wohltemperierte Klavier Bach did mean the equally tempered scale indeed. Simon Stevin, a Flemish mathematician, astronomer, engineer and musical scientist, published a book in Utrecht "Over het Afstemmen van Orgelen ende Clavecymbelen" in 1600, showing the equal temperament, which he knew from his birth city, Brugge. Bach often went playing on the Flemish organs, just miles away from his house, in the Flemming(Flemish region in Germany). The Equally Tempered Scale in general, made already part of the Flemish Civilisation, since the 11th century.
+Alter Kater yes, I am and a very much adored one! Did you actually read what I was writing about Simon Stevin and the medieval Flemish well-tempered scale? Any tuning, other than equal or well-tempered, is a compromise. Only in equal you can modulate in all chromatic scales. Besides, there is also a spiritual side to the Wohl-Temperierte scale. The number 12. I can tune in any system I did many experiments. With my ensemble I was playing medieval music in natural scale, which up to now rarely is done consequently or just wrongly. I know what you people try to say. The best specialists on the field of tuning worldwide say: "there is no explanation without mentioning God"
+Alter Kater you are sure but you don't know! that is for me the essence of your comment. I do know that equal temperament scales, up to Beethoven's time, weren't exatly 100% equal. To just whether or not my tunings are adorable or not: people that follow their heart and their ears, they like it! The stretching and brilliance you are talking about is about enharmonicity. It is a different subject. Quickly you take that track to so called 'proove' I'm 'wrong' with that you can seduce the ignorant only, man! Are you also a flat earther maybe?
+Alter Kater in any scale you can go through any key but at times it might even blow your pants off - I'm talking about equally going thru all keys without giving priority
Why is that woman just sitting there
I'm still wondering how to adjust my Roland RD700GX in order to play Bach's Well-tempered Klavier on it as Bach heard it. After watching this video, I still dont get it: did Bach use Mean-tone? It sounds absolutely horribly, those preludes in csharp-major.
there was a study done years back statistically analysing the intervals [and the frequency of their use!] used throughout the Bach 48 to determine [ie work backwards] what tuning system Bach used -- wow, So many theories. The WTC shows that Bach used some system of well-[presumably not-equal]-temperament, since that's what he called the compilation. In a way the two sets were an advertisement of how sophisticated a tuning he had devised! well-temperament allowed most keys to be used, yet retained key-colour and individuality; not to mention avoiding the complete out-of-tuneness of ET. I wonder what system PDQ used in his 1995-discovered work: the Short-Tempered Clavier :-)
Eben Goresko has a strong Philadelphia (Fiuhladewlfeya) accent.
Is a "pure third" like the 5th partial? Is it just multiplying the frequency by 5/4? The way I understand it, historically that third (which is 15 cents lower than the third in 12-ET, I think) was considered more desirable, but of course (5/4)^3=125/64, and an octave is 128/64, so an octave based on that definition is problematic. Is this right?
+Jones Zilla Yep. And that's the problem.
Sharps and flats only have meaning and a purpose because the staff is not complete or uniform. If we used a huge staff that had a single line or space for each and every pitch, we wouldn't need key signatures or sharps & flats. A major to major, or a minor to minor key change only increases or lowers all the pitches by the same amount. I guess that's perceptable in contrast within a single piece of music. Major to minor, or minor to major will obviously make a big difference tho.
Thank you for the reply, but I don't know enough to get anything out of it. My shortcoming.
how much more interesting is also demo'ed using a tone generator and a screen display
One fact is that At Any Time very few tuners can actually tune a correct equal temperament. So then what would they be tuning.? Certainly not a Well temperament. There are many different tunings. In the dozens, I am sure. Few of them named or noted because the subject is a specialty unto it-self.
I am a concert piano tuner I can explain you more if you want - with pleasure
+Alter Kater 43 years now!
+anisuthideyakoindu :: I am glad you came in with that comment. I have been working with music much of my life, and have been tuning my pianos for 46 years, in the beginning because the block had a crack and a number of pins were loose. I got many directions from the tuners I had until one said "why did you call me?" - but still! I can learn and improve, some may say minute details which does not matter much. An example: My fifths in the bass annoyed me and I found out that they were not stretched enough. Initially (I remember - 46 years ago) I stretched the bass tuning by listening each one to middle register (major) chords, but on the current piano for some reason that began to be difficult for me.
I am not a professional tuner and I have decided to get help from the local concert-qualified tuner - if he is willing to help me.
Don't you tune the bass in octaaves ?
This is also the reason when saying that Händel just A4=422.5Hz as his A4 and comparing it to A4=422.5Hz in Equal temperament is wrong. Händel did not use equal temperament... With his tuning system his A4 would be at least 10 cents flat (meantone) in relation to equal temprement. So with equal temperament a A4=425Hz is correct for Händel assuming he was using meantone. This makes his choral works much easier than modern A4=440Hz.. GOing down to "baroque pitch" A4=415Hz either with 12-TET or meantone is not right..
Certain pitch areas are not natural for the voice.. THey are transitional regions.. I would say that modern orchestres A4=440Hz to 445Hz (or 100 cents down at G#=415Hz to 420Hz) with 12-TET represents such as range .. Notes are placed very bad. Passaggios lie at the wrong place.. Opera in 443Hz sound bad to my ears.. The singers need to change reigster all the time.. And the opera houses can't find enough good dramatic singers for Pucini, VErdi etc. The "color" is not right.. THey have to have a lyrica baritone sing a part meant for a dramatic baritone etc..
Former European pitch at A4=435Hz is the highest healthy pitch for heavy voices as it limits early register shift and still sound "exciting": It still has a little lift.. Put your A4=431/432Hz with 12-TET and your passaggios are clean.. Notes are divided properly..
As opera star Carlo Bergonzi said it once in an interview "Verdi knew voices".. He recommended A4=432Hz because that is the natural tuning pitch for A4. Verdis choral works works best at A4=432Hz in 12-TET, Operatic pieces depending on the "color" or vibe of the piece lies between A4=432Hz and A4=437Hz.. In my book modern A4=440Hz should be replaced ASAP with 437Hz..(-11.85 cents) as 440-443Hz causes too much register shift.. People constansly sing flat by some 8 cents when fatigue starts setting in, in a pop or rock band as 438Hz is the upper limit for the voice.. ..
I'm sorry for not being quicker to thank you for your kind reply. I need to play around w/ the math of various pitches and how they relate to others in an octave to be able to understand your explanation. As for why composers want to change keys, it still makes no sense to me, you just go up or down.
Why are piano tuners so temperamental?
Imagine havint o achieve a good tuning daily and teach how to perfectly tune. That's a lot of hardwork and pain in the ears.
To put equal temperment in simple terms. You cannot tune all intervals purely and acquire a good-sounding piano for classical literature in the last 200 years. It would actually sound dissonant and discordant. In equal temperment, all 12 semi-tones in an octave have the same ratio (relationship). That means in order to play in all 12 tonalities, also referred to as keys, and have the chords in the tonalities sound similarly in feel, you have to narrow all the perfect fiths by a hair from pure, widen all of the perfect fourths by a hair, narrow the minor thrids a hair from pure and widen the major thirds a hair from pure. EXAMPLE: If you were to tune four consecutive minor thirds purely, the octave from that bottom and top note would have a discordant widened beat. The goal is to tune all octaves as purely as possible but we may actually stretch them ever-so-slightly as well. It's the best comprimise and the ultimate tuning system we have today. All of the intervals in an equal temperment piano are in a sense, slightly out of tine, but acceptable. Tuning a piano in equal temperment will also make the piano a lot more stable and less likely to go out of tune over time because the same tensions are applied to the strings at all times.
Yes, I agree that equal temperament is the best compromise if you want all keys to sound the same. But while the fifths and fourths of equal temperament are, as you say, only a "hair" off the pure intervals (fifths are two cents or hundredths of a semitone flat, fourth two cents sharp), the thirds are a lot worse than that: the equal tempered major third is fourteen cents sharp and the minor third seventeen cents flat, enough to make them sound really dreadful in comparison to the pure intervals. That's why singers and string quartets, and other variable pitched sources of sound, rarely or never produce equal tempered thirds.
Scott Wallace equal temperment sounds like crap
I don't play much in equal temperament myself. But I think it is the only way to tune certain kinds of music- say, Chopin preludes.
Larry Ellis I was told by a technician in Settle that Keith Jerrett needed that octave stretch .
Larry Ellis There is no one being honest who would complain about a well regulated beautifully tuned Steinway D being played by (insert your favorite pianist) in a proper acoustic environment.
Please give me a tip for tunning just na octave!
Could he not use fewer, clearer words (and a little math) instead of the fuzziness? I understand the technical details of how tuning works, and he does not explain it well.
Music is math.
In the closest cases it's more of a "feel" than a "hear". There will be fluctuating "beats" (which are places where the sound waves cancel each other out) and the closer you get to a "well" tuning, (and even more so in unison between two identical notes) the beats recur at a slower rate which can be heard if you listen really closely. But he doesn't do a very good job of explaining this in the video
I've a question. Suppose we have an instrument that can do Just M3 for all combinations, will there be any difference in colour in different keys? Then there is no point of playing in different keys right?
Right! In the just temperament with only pure thirds is no key characteristics. The key characteristic in the unequal temperament is based precisely on the different major thirds.
Once you do just temperament you loose the nice overtones that will match between the third and the fundamental in a chosen key. just temperament creates many matching overtones for the fifth and the fourth relative to the fundamental but only one for the major third. But it does it for all keys. It's like the communist temperament.
Most of Mozart's works had fewer black keys. He used C. F. G a lot for piano works (sonatas). But Haydn wrote works with more black keys. One unusual symphony is actually in B Major (46). th-cam.com/video/7BzZ1-GUJCc/w-d-xo.html Hogwood's performances of all this music may reflect older tuning practices? (a famous Haydn sonata, ending in a Minuet, was in C# Minor, with a middle movement in A Major.)
I appreciate the ideas behind this... I don’t believe the tuner here is necessarily espousing going back to historical tunings. These tunings are used for fixed pitch instruments. Do you think that instrumentalists of unfixed pitched instruments played things in these tunings? I doubt it. I imagine orchestras would tune to what sounded best. Not what was true to a fixed instrument tuning. so perhaps the colors of keys were not so different from each other with non fixed pitched instruments?
joe pesci ! that's him...
damn you, pythagoras!
does this have anything to do with the 432 hz to 440 hz switch in the early 1900's ?
Probably
No. The shift to a higher frequency dealt with the new materials for strings and needed greater tension to sound good and also to play louder.
youngspiritchief nothing to do with, it has to do with how they tuned the notes. It was either in 5ths or in 3rd's in 3rds you were left with a severe dissonance called wolf tone
I had heard that the switch from 432 hz to 440 hz was due to the fact that a soloist playing a little more sharp sounded brighter. Over time, with soloists all trying to play a little more sharp than the orchestra, the pitch center raised. Probably just a fanciful notion, but I thought I would share it.
youngspiritchief no
so if I understand well, by moving to equal temperament we basically lost all variations in quality and colour. Great…talk about evolution.
The piano was invented in 1701 ish. But it was not prominent until the very late 1700's or even 1800's.So eighteenth century tuners, if that was the culture, rather than tuning the instrument yourself, it would have been on clavichord and harpsichord. So the piano is still outputting a much different sound than the instruments of the day. Many performers didn't really care about tuning.
Perhaps they didn’t need to care so much because the tuning always sounded better. Modern equal temperament does not allow the modern piano to exploit its full potential.
It didn't seem to be as clear as it could've been, but a person can still learn something from several poor videos. I think the biggest hurdle in trying to understand music is that music people use horrible terminology for about everything they do. Plus they don't come clean about the shortcomings to their beloved system. For instance, a staff is brief, but it's obscure. A staff w/ a line for every pitch would be too big to play from, but it would be much easier to learn about music.
It looks like Joe Pesci tuning a piano.
Andrew Field "Go get your piano tuner"
"No more tuners"
"..wha??"
"No more tuners. I don't know if you know you've been gone awhile but I don't tune pianos anymore "
"Ima just breaking your balls a little bit huggin and kissin, and you're gettin fresh on me"
For the first time a video’s point is actually helped by awful tinny phone speakers. You can really hear the beat rate or absence of .
I may be wrong but do not buy the pure M3. Why did they not use pure 5ths instead ?
Temperament systems I have seen adressed cycles of 5ths only meantone sequences used thirds. What is the historical context for that affirmation ?
Yes, you are wrong. Pure fifths give us Pythagorean thirds, which sound even worse than equal tempered thirds. The historical context is that people wanted good thirds. It's a matter of taste.
@@therealzilch worse in which tonality ? as soon as you start modifying any notes away from equal tuning it will improve as many thirds as it will will degrade in other tonalities. This is a total sum system so i don't understand claiming to improve equal tuning without the improvment being restricted to certain keys.
@@goognamgoognw6637 It's only a "total sum system" if you want all keys to sound the same. So yes, you are right: the improvement of other tuning systems (say, 1/4 tone meantone) over equal temperament comes at the expense of restricting yourself to certain keys- depending also on how much dissonance you are willing to put up with in keys distant from the center keys.
As I said, it's a matter of taste, and there's no "best" solution. Equal temperament, or something very close to it (say, Valotti) is preferable for, say, Chopin, and less equal temperaments for earlier music with fewer keys. But that's just my taste. Many people are not bothered by the rather dissonant major thirds of equal temperament, so they needn't worry about other systems.
If you want to hear music with no temperament at all, here's an example in 11 limit just intonation. Warning: weird.
soundcloud.com/scott-wallace-189088488/cauliflower
cheers from rainy Vienna, Scott
@@therealzilch Thanks this is certainly an fascinating subject, i just have the right background that makes me very comfortable on the mathematical side of this discussion and i also have a solid musical education but it's the first time i get into that topic, so the semantic throws me off. What do you mean by "11 limit just intonation". That seems very interesting. Unlike most people the more mathematical it gets the easier to understand it will be for me. I quickly looked at the harmonics of the degrees (notes) in an mathematical exact equal temperament and immediately saw that the fifth degree harmonics, every odd harmonic very nearly match a fundamental harmonic for sympathetic resonance. I also found that for the fourth degree it's only every three harmonics matching a fundamental harmonic. And the major third only has one harmonic near which is why its rather dissonant.
Also surprised that the tritone (the augmented fourth) is at sqrt(2) the frequency of the fundamental, which when you add another tritone above gives the octave. sqrt(2)*sqrt(2) = 2
@@goognamgoognw6637 It is indeed a fascinating and very complex subject- there are whole musical subcultures of tuning and temperament freaks with all kinds of different systems. Just intonation is tuning in intervals that are low-integer ratios, These ratios are thus all found in the geometric overtone series. The highest overtone I use in this tuning is 11 (discounting octaves). The actual tuning of the strings is 4 6 7 8 9 10 11 12.
Yes, the equal tempered tritone divides the octave exactly in half. It's quite a bit more dissonant than the most consonant of the just "tritones", 7/5 and 10/7. The 11 harmonic is very strange to our ears. There are lots of interesting sounds out there.
cheers from rainy Vienna, Scott
hear that XX century tuner pretending that those 5ths are all tempered alike, or that the M3 are smooth, when it is clearly not the case :
app.box.com/s/206bq8wci3qq4pzs34u6
DO the modern tuners need to hear "wolf 5ths" to believe in key coloration ?
I cannot believe old time tuners where too deaf not to tune a good cycle of 5ths on the piano, that lend to some quasi equal temperament as soon it is done correctly.
Even the modern versions of ET based on M3 progression give the 5ths different "colors" if that is the question. . Way more than what theory is stating. Key coloration is low but soon there if the tuner is attentive to that, and the best ones are, in my experience.
Isaac OLEG no, tuning by 5ths won't give you "quasi equal temperament" it'll give you pythagorean tuning which is even worse than just intonation.
@freeqwerqwer Ironically, you've just described your own comment.
That's why the 12 note keyboard design is a sham. It's based on fifths (3/2)^12 ~ 2^7
The better way to go is to use more than 12 notes (i.e. extended just intonation).
Teddy Dunn Yeah like a fretless bass guitar or fretless guitar. Infinite notes.
380stroker idiots
Is that Joe Pesci?
Eben Goresco is another cowboy. A skilled tuner does not tune in thirds and sixths ! Forths & Fifths is the way. That will produce "equal temperament." Ebon has an American accent. That is not an excuse.
The fifth is lower in the harmonic series than a 5/4 M3
I don't believe this. As per tuning on the guitar, folk style with open strings, the thirds are often given slower speeds than equal temperament, but still Some speed, to feed the "motion" of the music. The music of the 18th century, when you tune to the way it was written, you always wind-up with some equal temperament Variant. Mr Goresko, you need to first learn to tune better, although you are not bad, really.
+davieVmonster And this is true for Beethoven as well. Best in some some slight variant of Equal temperament.
He cannot be serious! I expect the men in white coats any time. Standard pitch was established as travel across Europe was becoming normal and a new standard was essential.
Travel across Europe being normal? -medieval- no wait -roman- or rather bronze age?
not so, in fact the vienna phil still play at a different pitch
poor presentation. Terrible explanation.
440 hz was a concept supported by the Nazis .I`m just saying .
Bach taught himself Chinese and prtended that he had invented Equal Temperament. It`s true because you read it on TH-cam .
john cadd WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT????
john cadd the Nazis with the British leading up to the 2nd world war, came to be in 1953 or 53 because the Yanks wanted it so Brits ok with that.
Mainly for recording quality.
Although a standard international pitch was needed,,,,they should have used the human voice as the guide line.
Why even bother teaching Baroque? It drives thousand of children from music every year.
12 bar blues is enough for anybody. If you would teach kids rock in school, you would have to listen to the shit they pump out today.
qqqqq qqqqq why shouldn't you teach Baroque, Classical, Romantic? Why should you only teach them what's happening right Now? Why should you Not teach them how we got to the music today? Why should 12 bar blues be enough for anybody? If someone is Not interested into Baroque, Classical, Romantic or contemporary music then why should they Care about it?