A Bach prelude in three different temperaments.
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 17 พ.ค. 2024
- UPDATE 31 March 2022: Based on many comments and suggestions, I decided to make a series of three videos in which I explain some basic concepts relating to temperaments, provide demonstrations of intervals, chords, and short passages played in different temperaments, and discuss how temperaments enhance musical expression. The links to the first two videos are below, and I will update this notice when I post the third video. I am grateful for your input, and hope you will find these videos helpful!
Exploring Temperaments, Part 1: • Exploring Temperaments...
Exploring Temperaments, Part 2, Listening Strategies and Demonstration: • Exploring Temperaments...
Support the channel at / johnmoraitis
Thank you for your support!
Chapters:
0:00 Introduction
2:18 Quarter-comma meantone presentation
4:40 Rameau presentation
5:38 Well Tempered Clavier and circulating temperaments
6:48 Kirnberger III presentation
8:00 Why this prelude?
9:11 Concluding remarks
10:22 Performance in quarter-comma meantone
12:36 Performance in Rameau
14:45 Performance in Kirnberger III
Johann Sebastian Bach: Prelude in C major, BWV 846 (from The Well-Tempered Clavier, Book I).
Performed in three different temperaments:
I. Quarter-comma meantone
II. Rameau
III. Kirnberger III
John Moraitis, spinet.
Spinet: Neupert "Zenti" (Bamberg, 2008). A=415 Hz. - เพลง
did this guy really go all out for us and tune his harpsichord 3 times for us?!
It was a fun project! :)
@@johnmoraitis And we thank you a lot for it!
Fred: It is "only" one string for each note. Piece of cake for a qualified technician (but still: GREAT!)
I’m no expert, but harpsichordists are used to tuning often, as harpsichords go out of tune easily. I’ve heard that if you practice every day, you should tune every day. Luckily I’m a piano player lol
@@sambennett9769 :: Some harpsichords have more than one chorus/string pr key, two manual instruments have at least 2, but still, yes they should tune every day like violinists and other stringed-instruments do. But hey, it is not so difficult if you can. I had to learn it, because of a loose tuning-pin! And no money for a better instrument. Why can't ordinary pianist ? There's a difference between a complete tuning and some corrections.
So every-dat tuning need not be so drastic.
I didn't wake up this morning wanting to listen to Bach in three different temperaments, but thanks youtube algorithm, now I have to watch every video on this guy's channel.
Same
He’s very compelling right from the outset; I’d have to agree! :)
Same again for me!
Same!
this is the way.
Just a quick pedagogical note, John. It would really enhance the presentation if you played the intervals as you are discussing them. I would love to hear that wolf fifth or those eight perfect thirds and see where they are placed on the keyboard. Great video!
Thank you! It's always difficult to decide what to include and what not to include in a video, but you are right about including the sound of those intervals. I have talked about meantone in more detail in previous videos, so here is one of those videos where I play some of these intervals, including the wolf fifth:
th-cam.com/video/hEEjcBdq52U/w-d-xo.html
agreed
Agree w this comment including it's praise.
This is fascinating and wonderfully done. Thank you.
Expanding on your suggestion, and this would be a video of its own, I think it would be amazing to hear chromatic EVERYTHING in a given temperament. Firstly a simple chromatic scale. Then chromatic "perfect" fifths, fourths, major thirds, minor thirds, every interval including minor 2nds. Then chromatic major, minor, diminished, and augmented triads. Then onto chromatic seventh chords of each sort. Possibly chromatic "jazz chords". I know it would be a super long video, but with the use of timestamps it would be much more easily navigable and endurable for viewers!
10:38 quarter-comma meantone
12:52 Rameau
15:01 Kirnberger III
Actual king shit thank you my brother 👑
Did Bach ever use equal temperament?
Bless you. I was going to post a tl;dw myself.
@@adhanda2017 Modern equal didn't exist back then.
@@adhanda2017 Bach used Well temperament for the WTC, modern equal derived from that
Chapters/sections:
Introduction: 0:00
Quarter-comma mean tone discussion: 2:18
Rameau discussion: 4:40
Bach's Well-Tempered Clavier and circulating temperaments: 5:38
Kirnberger discussion: 6:48
Why this prelude? 8:00
Conclusion & thanks: 9:11
Performance:
Quarter-comma mean tone: 10:22
Rameau: 12:36
Kirnberger III: 14:45
Great explanation of these tuning systems, and excellent performance!
This note should be pinned to the top. Thanks!
@@LadyPelikan Exactly my thought !
Thank you for providing these headings! I have finally figured out how to add chapters to my videos, and I used your headings as the basis of the chapters for this video. I will include chapters in my videos from now on!
@Stream of Consciousness The 'best' place to hear things (just based on the structure of the piece) is probably about half-way through, where some awkward intervals (and differences in temperament) are quite easily heard.
To my ear, the quarter-tone common mean almost had a “honky-tonk” intentionally mistuned feel to it. The Kirnberger does sound not flat, but perhaps dull is the word. And the Rameau hits so many subtle colors and textures, the piece really comes to life. Thank you illuminating this subtle choice.
Absolutely agree!
Keep in mind that we are highly influenced by the fact that we almost always listen to equal temperament, so it's highly improbable that they would have had the same feeling 300 years ago. Not to remove any value of what you said, it's just to put in contexz
I actually prefer the Kimberger.
@@MiguelBaptista1981
I liked both the Kirnberger and the Rameau, but found the other somewhat unappealing.
Kirnberger sounded the most consistent or "in-tune" to me, maybe because I only know equal temperament, Rameau was beautiful but did raise my hackles a couple times, quarter tone was a hot mess.
An incredibly clear and understandable presentation on a subject that is usually “beyond human comprehension” 👍😊
Thank you!
@@johnmoraitis :: And again thanks TO YOU! :) ❤
Absolutely. This is one of the best, if not the best, overview explanation on music temperaments that I have heard. Naturally, as John states, a thorough discussion is well beyond the scope of a short video. I certainly appreciate hearing the same piece played on the same instrument across three different temperaments. Personally, for this piece, I most enjoyed hearing it in the quarter-comma meantone temperament, particularly toward the bottom register of the harpsichord, where, to me, its sonority was more pleasing than that of the other two temperaments. Lastly, I appreciate the brief expose on the equal-tempered temperament myth. It rings a bell (although, I do not know in which temperament that bell sounds... smile...). Frankly, I am unfamiliar with the circularity of a well-tempered temperament, and it would be highly interested to delve into its historical context with respect to Bach's rationale for creating these pieces for this temperament. Well done!
@@aspsa6246 Thank you! I'm happy you liked the video!
Not gonna lie I just skipped to 10:32
Music aside, the framing in this shot is actually fantastic
brilliant observation!
From this angle, he looks and even moves like Thom Yorke at the piano. It's hard to unsee once you see it.
Dude did his whole speech in 1 take too.
When he is playing, the framing is perfect. During the introduction, the higher camera position and downward angle along with his relative body position and angle facing up towards the camera gives him a cartoonish overly large head. I'm not meaning it as an insult in any way, I'm just saying that's what I was thinking during the introduction 😅 But yes, the framing really is absolutely perfect.. It horizontally goes from the back of his body to the far end of the harpsichord, and vertically it goes from the top of the harpsichord to just where he's seated. Nothing extra shown nor is it overly cropped.
@@DustinShaneYounceYes, that amazed me as well! No editing, no script! Just speaking straight from his knowledge in one solid go!
this music, and the entire approach, is so beautiful, such a blessing, when u get hit by loud commercials, cellphone ringtones, over-compressed digital music, etc. pp. all day long...
This was absolutely fascinating! I found the quarter comma to be very emotive, the Rameau to be flat and the Kirnberger III to be warm. I'm going to be on the lookout for music performed in quarter comma temperament. Thank you so much for this!
When the piece leads up to that low G# at 11:39 ,13:50, and 16:00 is where the difference is very very pronounced. To me that part of the piece sounds the most "out of tune," in all three temperaments, though when listening to the surrounding material, each temperament sort of emphasizes different parts of the phrase between the rise, suspense, and release. Thank you so much for this wonderful video!
This is it ^. To me, the first one sounded like a garbled mess at that point. The second sounded reasonable there but out of tune. The third sounded pretty nice there and I could get used to that!
The first time I watched this video, the Rameau temperament had me under a spell, and I could not think of anything else for some time. Now that, after some time, I watch again, I still love the Rameau temperament, but also grow fond of the beautiful colours of the Kirnberger 3. Thank you also for your detailed explanations on the structure and compromises of each of these temperaments.
I would have liked to have heard a chromatic scale and perhaps a few chord progressions in each tuning before the performances.
Thank you for the suggestion. It's always difficult to know what to include and what to leave out in a demonstration, but I'll keep this in mind next time I make a similar video. At least in terms of meantone, I can offer this example of a chromatic scale -- the opening subject of the piece is fully chromatic, so I hope that helps at least a bit!
th-cam.com/video/IAhcyXzXoYk/w-d-xo.html
@@johnmoraitis Thank you. That's very illuminating.
I agree. As a complete novice, I would have been much helped.
@@jimp4170 qàAaaaaaa f9sw22
I could definitely hear the differences. I think the Rameau is the sweetest and most regular. The quarter-comma had the harmonious dissonances evenly spread and had a delightful tartness to it, like a sharp lemonade. The Kirnberger was regular like the Rameau on the natural notes, but the half-tones were definitely sharp. Very instructive! Thank you.
I'm happy you liked the video!
Yes, I was getting a citrus vibe there too.
Yeah I like Rameau the most. For me the Kirnberger was very citrusy. everything a bit more intense than is comfortable
Your way to talk is so filled with respect and awe before the creation (of Bach) and music in general.
Thanks.
String players are blessed and cursed in that we can adjust the pitch of every note we play (and have heated debates in rehearsals about how high we want a third or how narrow a minor second). So much richness! It's very interesting to think about having to commit to a tuning for an entire piece. Thank you for creating and uploading.
Oh, don't get me started - I had to play with a first violinist in a string quartet who pontificated that in a minor scale "the tonic is higher and the fifth is lower". What??? If you change where the tonic is you're just retuning, not choosing a temperament; everything in the scale is in reference to the tonic.
Wind players can and do this as well. I play bassoon and my pitch is as loosey goosey as it gets. Although, that could just be a reflection on my lack of talent.
Blues guitarist here. Just bend up the third and seventh and we’re all good.
Sure, but try doing that on a fretless guitar and see if you don't lose track of where the non-bent notes are supposed to be. ;)
@@EvanTreempire loads of vibrato and hope that no one notices. Isn’t that what all string players do? 😂
For this prelude, my pick is 15:01 Kirnberger III
Thank you for this enlightening video. It makes me realize how much we're missing out on when we hear early keyboard music played in equal temperament. There's a whole world waiting to be rediscovered!
THIS was such an excellent explanation of different temperaments. Thank you! Very well made video.
I'm happy you liked the video!
This adds so much color to pieces I’ve heard countless times. I was trained classic cello up to intermediate theory; needless to say I had many questions deliberating string tuning, enharmonics etc. Apparently there’s a whole new world behind that!
I was also originally trained as a classical pianist, so it's been an exciting journey of discovery for me too. And I'm still learning!
I’m in the exact same place.
irs funny that your name is slipknot73745 and you have a classical backround
@@ponga2780 tons of metal heads are all about classical music. You should look up the relationship, it's an interesting thing!
Great video. The beginning of the Rameau felt like heaven to my ears.
Thank you! For this prelude, I have to say the Rameau is my favorite too.
@@johnmoraitis ...YES! Absolutely beautiful! ❤️
@@johnmoraitis That was the best one! The third version was also good, the first one awful. Thanks for your diligent effort in teaching us these extreme subtleties.
As a piano tech., Meantone had me groping for my tuning lever! I have heard enthusiasts getting together in a room with pianos tuned to different temperaments and playing appropriate music for each. THAT would be fun. (Excellent video, sound, and discourse)
I'm happy you liked the video!
Interestingly, Genesis keyboardist Tony Banks chose chords for the opening of "Watcher Of The Skies" with the wonky tuning of the Mellotron in mind.
Some of the chords in the first tuning sounded very dissonant. The third tuning seemed to be the best compromise.
@@hubbsllc THAT is one nightmare of a mechanical device! All the notes are recorded on a mag tape loop.
I came to look for a comment like this :)
My mother was a piano tech (RPT) and I would often go with her to meetings (30 years ago!). This video brought me back to one of them where a set of pianos were lined up and tuned to different temperaments while a couple of guests came and gave a talk and demonstration of various pieces from different time periods and how the colors of the pieces changed from instrument to instrument. It was an enlightening evening. I enjoyed reliving it with this video.
Bach and baroque in general are my passion on the piano, really ❤
I really appreciate the effort this video must have taken.
I loved kimberger versión, very nice and accurate explaination☑️
I understand why you might use the Rameau more often- it fits the piece very well. However, there is something I really enjoy about the quarter-comma meantone. There are some crazy bitter intervals there that don't exist in Rameau, but they arrive in a fun and interesting way. Great presentation
Came here to say the same. It was gorgeous ❤
Hearing the three temperaments next to each other really lets me notice the differences.
In the quarter comma meantone there are clearly some dissonances which I noticed right away.
Distinguishing Rameau and Kirnberger III when heard some time apart would be more difficult, as intervals sound good for me in both occasions.
But Rameau surely had more depth or richness in it, Kirnberger III sounded a bit flat.
Excellent demonstration and thanks for the effort of retuning 3 times for the video.
In the first case It's interesting how it sounds "out of tune" when specially when there are chromatic chords and the dominant, but in the other ones it sounds pretty good. It's like if you want to use this "special tunings" you really need to compose for those, using their "proper chords".
The second one is more "screeching", but it seems to have less problems with the "out of tune" thing in the "weird" chords.
The third one... Really good, not that out of tune in the chromatic and non-chromatic, disonant chords, it's really like a balance between the last two tunings, you don't have the "ultra perfect" concords of some of the first tuning, but you don't get the bads of the chromatic chords either. I really liked this one.
The Kimberger III temperament brings out the joyous open air quality of this piece.
I tuned my piano to this one year, the concords were so sweet, but I could nto play anthing later than Beethoven. Shostakovicth did not work at all!
Somehow it sounded darker to me.
I felt the most emotion from the music with the Kimberger III.
Kirnberger 3: 1/4 synt. comma (1744)
|
0: 1/1 0.000000 unison, perfect prime
1: 135/128 92.178716 major chroma, major limma
2: 193.157 cents 193.156860
3: 32/27 294.134997 Pythagorean minor third
4: 5/4 386.313714 major third
5: 4/3 498.044999 perfect fourth
6: 45/32 590.223716 diatonic tritone
7: 696.578 cents 696.578430
8: 405/256 794.133717 wide augmented fifth
9: 889.735 cents 889.735290
10: 16/9 996.089998 Pythagorean minor seventh
11: 15/8 1088.268715 classic major seventh
12: 2/1 1200.000000 octave
comparison:
1: 1: -5.462284 cents -5.462283 0.8720 Hertz, 52.3189 cycles/min.
2: 2: -5.590140 cents -5.590140 0.9460 Hertz, 56.7616 cycles/min.
3: 3: -9.503003 cents -9.503002 1.7067 Hertz, 102.4036 cycles/min.
4: 4: -9.764286 cents -9.764286 1.8497 Hertz, 110.9817 cycles/min.
5: 5: -3.311001 cents -3.311000 0.6678 Hertz, 40.0672 cycles/min.
6: 6: -3.895284 cents -3.895284 0.8287 Hertz, 49.7240 cycles/min.
7: 7: -3.165570 cents -3.165570 0.7160 Hertz, 42.9603 cycles/min.
8: 8: -7.549283 cents -7.549282 1.8088 Hertz, 108.5285 cycles/min.
9: 9: -7.021710 cents -7.021710 1.7776 Hertz, 106.6589 cycles/min.
10: 10: -5.790002 cents -5.790001 1.5581 Hertz, 93.4885 cycles/min.
11: 11: -6.245285 cents -6.245285 1.7728 Hertz, 106.3684 cycles/min.
12: 12: 1/1 0.000000 0.0000 Hertz, 0.0000 cycles/min.
Mode: 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 Twelve-tone Chromatic
Total absolute difference : 67.29785 cents
Average absolute difference: 5.60815 cents
Root mean square difference: 6.20292 cents
Highest absolute difference: 9.76429 cents
Number of notes different: 11
Kirnberger 3 cycle of fifths:
0: 0.000000 cents 0.000 0 0 commas
7: 696.578430 cents -5.377 -165 -1/4 synt. commas
2: 696.578430 cents -10.753 -330 -1/2 synt. commas
9: 696.578430 cents -16.130 -495 -3/4 synt. commas
4: 696.578424 cents -21.506 -660 -syntonic comma, Didymus comma
11: 701.955001 cents -21.506 -660 -syntonic comma, Didymus comma
6: 701.955001 cents -21.506 -660 -syntonic comma, Didymus comma
1: 701.955001 cents -21.506 -660 -syntonic comma, Didymus comma
8: 701.955001 cents -21.506 -660 -syntonic comma, Didymus comma
3: 700.001280 cents -23.460 -720 -Pythagorean comma, ditonic comma
10: 701.955001 cents -23.460 -720 -Pythagorean comma, ditonic comma
5: 701.955001 cents -23.460 -720 -Pythagorean comma, ditonic comma
12: 701.955001 cents -23.460 -720 -Pythagorean comma, ditonic comma
Average absolute difference: 19.4692 cents
Root mean square difference: 21.1462 cents
Maximum absolute difference: 23.4600 cents
Maximum formal fifth difference: 5.3766 cents
Yep, I understand exactly what you guys are talking about
As a musician of many decades...it all sounded good to me.
This is a thorough elucidation of the science of temperament as well as an informing historical account of the subject. I very much appreciate your insights and diligent work!
Thank you!
I would sooner have this harpsichord and the ability to play it than my TV and all of its gadgets.
Thank you. I must say that this was an amazing demonstration, with a very clear and balanced introduction. Usually I am not able to hear much difference between temperaments, but in this case, when you started to play the Rameau temperament I immediately found it to be very beautiful, more "calm" intervals than the other two, if one can express it that way.
Such a delightful instrument with a surprising volume and richness of tone for something so small.
My ears are blessed to ear this.
The third temperament, felt the most fluid. It felt the one you enjoyed; best too. I liked and subscribed. Thank you.
Excellent video. Worthy of a college-level masterclass. Well done indeed.
This is all new to me; I don't understand what you are saying but it's interesting. I will replay your video and look up what the different temperaments are......I am novice. Thank you for your post. 🙏
Extremely interresting: it aims to let you hear, feel and understand the different temperaments - tuning modes - which were in existence before the XVIII Century...although the piece itself is not that difficult to play....even I did succeed in doing so! It is so interresting to hear you explain all the subtilities of your playing in three different temperaments - modes.
After watching this, I tried the same exercise myself using the Pianoteq demo. I found it a little easier to hear the differences when I could play them myself (although it's still very subtle).
Thank you for the explanation and demonstration. Fascinating topic. To my ear the Rameau 12:50 sounded "purer" than the others with this particular piece. Almost seems like the difference between sugar and honey...😊
I'm happy you liked it! I think the Rameau sounds purer because, while it may not have as many pure thirds, it also doesn't have any "questionable" thirds like meantone, so that the overall effect is indeed sweeter.
Excellent video! Might I also interest the audience here in my "Yarman-36 subset" (cf. jaem.isikun.edu.tr/web/index.php/component/content/article/88-vol4no2/180-yarman-36-makam-tone-system-for-turkish-art-music), which is a 12-tone modified meantone temperament in the style of Rameau? You can watch my performance here: th-cam.com/video/pN-A0fZ-onE/w-d-xo.html
@@OzanYarman I'm happy you liked the video, and thank you for providing the link to your performance! I'll definitely watch it tonight!
Great to hear it John! I enjoy your Early Music performances very much. In my attempts to systematize Maqam music pitch intonation and inflexions, I long ago realized the importance of irregular temperaments, which also provide delicious tone colors in the common-practice sense.
I found myself a fan of the Rameau, too. All of them were very interesting and beautiful in their own ways, but something about that Rameau had something very special about it.
Wow. the quarter comma brings something totally new to this piece that I'd never have imagined!
Super cool and wonderful concise introduction! Thanks!
A most instructive demonstration! I rather liked that one nice dissonance in the meantone version--perhaps it was meant to get the audience to wake up! Of course, you cannot play most of Bach in meantone, although some have tried. I have a question about meantone that I will communicate to you privately. In the MEANtime, please continue with your wonderful videos.
Thank you! I saw your message a few minutes ago, and I'll respond soon!
i kind of loved the quarter-comma meantone version for the very lowest sections. it's definitely weird and slightly "off," but within that it had a depth and complexity that i really enjoyed
I love how the third interpretation feels like you wanted to move on quickly
Thank you for the great information and demonstration, it’s nice when they go together.
And thanks for the beautiful performance !
The Kirnberger tuning sounds fantastic to me, the others had a nagging sense of being "out of tune". I suppose it's all down to the key it's in and the intervals involved. Great video.
I was about to comment the same thing! I think we prefer the Kirnberger III because in a way it’s the closest of the three to equal-temperament which is how we’re most used to listening to this piece in, I think.. but Rameau does have a special spicy feeling which is really nice in my opinion and I think I can appreciate it if I get used to it
Kirnberger sounds much lighter to me, much airier. A very beautiful temperament, and what an interesting video!
Yeah, the objectionable parts of the other tunings really grate on my ears. There's no question that I'm so used to equal temperament that its shortcomings don't bother me, but I find that while people often comment on the "blandness" of its colors ("color", really since every key has exactly the same qualities) I find the pure thirds and fifths of other temperaments bland; I'm just used to a little crunch with my triads.
To my ear the Kirnberger sounded the closest to "neutral", I heard one interval that sounded noticeably out, but it felt a bit more resonant than the meantone. The meantone sounded, duller, like there was just less sympathetic resonance, and had a few ugly patches that stick out as glaringly ugly. The Rameau had a similar if not stronger feeling of resonance to it than the Kirnberger, and some really beautiful moments, and a few almost comically misplaced notes sprinkled here and there. But I can't play anything, I just listen deeply.
"it's all down to the key it's in and the intervals involved" -- you said it correctly, I think! Hear different music and you'll be left with a different impression.
All of these brilliant people with their trained ears and perfect pitch.... I can’t tell the difference between the tunings lol. Oh well. Splendid demonstration regardless
Oceanus! The baby born on the Mayflower!!! What a great and obvious choice.
Snap. But I don't plan to admit it.
Hey there 🙋
Fantastic video! The idea, the technical explanation, the insights, the performances! Thank you so much!
Love the physics of Music, how we perceive different Sound Worlds….love the wide range of sound worlds of different Composers and thankful for the wide range of Master Artists who share their versions…..endless hours of Joy. Plus my amateur attempts with hands of a chimp, just to try to produce a few measures of a composition as written in 2 dimensions of lines and dots…..(love Scriabin, & Rachmaninov, & a bit of many others). This is a very good vid. Genius of Bach!!!!
My opinions about the three performances after careful consideration:
#1: it's Bach.
#2: it's Bach.
#3: it's Bach.
That, my friend, is a perfect commentary. Bach is Bach.
But they illustrate a question that will never be settled: how much did Bach care about the different "colors" (for lack of a better word) you can get from different keys when the instrument is tuned to different temperaments? My guess is that he considered them a distraction from the effects of counterpoint, harmony, and orchestration; there's plenty you can do with those. To a listener who's used to more equal-ish temperaments, the less equal-ish just sound out of tune, and as a church musician Bach would have had plenty of such listeners to deal with. Also as a church musician, he was probably working with a lot of musicians whose intonation was chancy for a lot of reasons, none of them having to do with temperament, and singers who needed stuff transposed without making all the intervals different. My guess is he was more of a "here's our scale, shut up and play" director.
@@danisoaresduarte Not always. Sometimes, Bach is OffenBach. :)
@@Shermanbay Sometimes, Bach is Offenbach but often, Bach is Bach
You know what - you got it right every time!
The non-equal temperaments give each scale a distinctive characteristics, something that got mostly (not completely) lost with equal temperament
Thank you for taking the time to explain this so wonderfully.
Generous and fascinating. Thank you so much for the valuable education.
10:36 Quarter-comma meantone
12:49 Rameau
14:59 Kirnberger III
Oh wow is this interesting: where have you been all my life? I have been SO distressed by all of this and I had absolutely no idea anyone thought about it, these inconsistencies and tonal differences. I thought I was just crazy. There's so much more than the interval consonances, there's also the way the sounds blend and interact. The third one - forget its name - that tuning has always put me to sleep; the notes just don't stand apart. That's what I think that Rameau does is keep everything more separate and crystalline. Which is really important to appreciating the music overall. =0.02 of course. But I think that sort of _mixture_ of sound, the "digestion", if you will, is very important too. Thank you for your scholarship so much!!
I hope you don’t mind me saying, but It’s interesting that you say you’ve been distressed by these matters.
Maybe the intonation in my guitar needs looking at - but
I’ve been really struggling with the sound and tuning lately, especially where thirds are concerned. I’m constantly feeling the tuning is off - the more I’ve played the more sensitive and discerning my ears are to minuscule variations in pitch. I think (and most people say) I have a very highly developed natural ear, but it’s been upsetting me and I’m not sure what’s down to fatigue, actual instrument problems, or just these imperfections in 12TET that I perhaps didn’t appreciate fully before.
Come to think of it though, so many guitarists will say the G and B are a nightmare to tune, and in the context of tuning- these are often minor or major thirds.
Thank you. I've often wished I could show someone a video or recording of the same piece in different temperaments when I tell them about historical temperaments, to show that this absolutely matters.
Love how the keys colors are reversed. To my ears there was a purity and clarity of tone in the Kimberger III that I preferred over the others. This is also my favorite Bach prelude and the one that I tried to learn on my own using my own techniques. Thank you.
The consonances in the Rameau are quite something, and then contrasted with the tension in the dominant chords; very nice. I'd almost say the idea of harmonic movement is a little watered down with equal temperament
It is definitely watered down, because all tonalities sound the same. When you use unequal temperaments, modulating to a different key is audible, and, depending on where you modulate, it can be a very dramatic event. Some of Schubert's modulations, for instance, can have startling effects in an unequal temperament. This is indeed what we have lost in the 20th century: key color, and the use of temperament as a means of expression.
*Me, who knows nothing about piano, but is still watching this at 3 am*
This isn't even a piano XD
It's a harpsichord which in some ways is the grandfather of the modern piano though
@@Jwm367t Actually a bentside spinet
@@ArturoEscorza
That's just a kind of harpsichord, though, lol
I definitely learnt something today as a returning guitarist. In the third rendition ,Kirnberger this piece of music sounded wider tonally I definitely noticed something comparatively in the higher registers. Until today I had no idea what tempering was. Now I have a faint grasp.
The journey continues. Thanks for your dedicated offering.
Fantastic - love getting this information. Love thinking about using these tonalities and tuning and how one could use in decorative ways. WOW!
I definitely go with Kirnberger
Natural and sweat
Also modulation near the end sounds more dramatic
For me Kirnberger sounds the best in terms of balancing the counterpoint with the harmonies.
For me, quarter-comma meantone was the most satisfying.
Wow! :) Very illustrative! Beautiful to have the differences pointed out this way. Thank you!
That was really interesting. I've been semi-casually playing piano for nearly 20 years, only recently hearing that there's no single "correct" tuning haha, and you explain and demonstrate that in a really helpful and satisfying manner. Thank you, I really enjoyed this video.
Thank you so much for this lovely explanation!
I'm happy you liked it!
Just want to say, how thorough you are with this topic is so refreshing and I'm surprised you don't have more exposure than you do. Well done. And thank you.
Enjoyable and thought-provoking presentation, thanks!
The first performance sounded the most pure to me and I felt myself close my eyes and let the music take over my mind. The second performance started off ok for a few seconds then I began to feel uncomfortable as I felt the notes crash into each other with beat tones and dissonance and it made me sit upright in my chair. I skipped to the third performance early because I did not care for the ‘grunge’ sound of the second. The third felt a little less aggressive, but still lacked the pure feel of the first. I went back to the first and nearly fell asleep so I know it’s the preferred temperament for me. I’m a former brass band tuba player and a post production sound engineer for the past 19 years.
Wow the richness of the harmonics in the harpsichord I had never heard them before this performances! It is more evolving compared to the brightness and punctuated sound when the harpsichord is in equal temperament.
Yes, the type of temperament you use definitely affects the resonance of the harpsichord. And since in equal temperament no intervals are pure, the instrument will not resonate as much. Personally, I don't use equal temperament anymore -- I see no reason for it :-)
John Moraitis and yet there is a guitar sitting there with mathematically spaced frets.
Yeah it's crazy, especially the quarter comma meantone. Totally different sound (and very beautiful) compared to what I'm used to.
@@petebard It's my dad's :-) But yes, it also shows how modern instruments can be very standardized and inflexible. Back in the 17th century, instruments were built with movable frets.
John Moraitis agreed! The tied frets on the viol are often slanted here and there in an attempt to temper the tuning. Tuning a guitar by using harmonics will show the absolute need for tempering. As a fiddler I have the luxury of blending with whatever I am able to, or, blending with my open strings which resonate on their own. We often think we have superior ears but all we’re really doing is blending with what we hear.
Thanks for the work you out into this video.
Hello and thank you for this wonderful video. To be honest, I have never really cared for the sound of the harpsichord, but I clicked on the video because the subject interested me. Imagine my surprise to discover these unequal temperaments really bring out an expressive aspect of the instrument I had never heard before! The Rameau particularly has a wonderful breadth between the shimmering light of the beginning and the murkier darkness of the later passages. Thank you for opening my ears!
I cannot really tell a difference, and I was a Music Major back in the day!
Me too :-)
To me it felt kind of like the second was feeling happy about something that happened a long time ago, like slightly wistful and the third happy about something happening now but idk.
Fascinating, and enlightening too - thank you! :-)
The first tuning is most adapted to our contemporary hearing. The second and third are common for periodic instrument players. Then it is all about taste and historical knowledge. And there is a wide range of 17th and 18th-century tunings to choose from.
Music theory neophyte here. Eventually, the light does switch on. The chosen key establishes where the "off-color" tunings fall. Did composers chose the key with this in mind? I would think so. With equally-tempered tuning, there should be no real difference between the keys. There was method to their madness, but I never knew it. No one ever told me. I've always assumed equally-tempered. For example, in a computer science project, interfacing an oscillator to a computer, I set set up the tuning based on 12th root of 2 spacing. I never even thought of any other way. (Music was the most interesting way to demonstrate the project.) I've heard of Pythagoras, but I assumed that by the baroque era, they'd made the transition, but I guess not. They still had the "devilish" wolf fifth problem. I had heard of "forbidden" intervals\chords, but no one explained why. I thought the church was just being arbitrary. As my kids would say, "that's so random." As I grow up, I'm figuring out that nothing is "random."
Yes, that's one of the most important aspects I also discovered (because, like you, at first I only knew of equal temperament): composers indeed wrote in particular keys for expressive purposes, because each key had a different "color." I've made other videos in the past where I explore precisely that topic. Here is one that related to meantone:
th-cam.com/video/5Rglt26-aVI/w-d-xo.html
Bear in mind that almost all the scholarship on the history of temperament is outdated, as well as the conception of the relationship of music to temperament. So much of the scholarship is incorrect. I suppose that's because for musicians and musicologists, temperament is difficult to fully grasp. It is compounded by people's basic tendency to not distinguish written theory from practice, a problem which exists in many fields of science. Historical temperaments, especially quarter-comma temperament, were revived in the 1960s on harpsichords by the early music movement, and then around 1980 on some organs in the US and Europe. Quarter-comma temperament (i.e. "meantone"), of which we're still not sure how common it was, doesn't have key flavor - either the intervals are usable, or they aren't. Circulating temperaments such as "Rameau" and "Kirnberger III" do have key flavor. "Rameau" is probably close enough to what keyboard players like JS Bach used when they wanted to play around the whole circle of fifths. By the way, "forbidden intervals" (e.g. the tritone) and the church have nothing to do with temperament. There was nothing forbidden about the "wolf". Simply, for most musical purposes, most musical establishments wanted either a G-flat or an A-flat (which defined where the "wolf" went) and not a compromised note, to serve their needs (e.g. playing G-Dorian chants transposed down one note into F-minor, to suit vocal range, depending on the pitch of the organ, versus other rationales). Though there was a shifting trend over time, favoring one note over the other, and then eventually a compromise, and the finally even more of a compromise, we're more sure today about their rationale in the 18th century than we are about their rationale in the 13th through 16th centuries. It was rare, only among the avant-garde, for the rationale for temperament to be able to play around the whole circle of fifths.
Quarter-comma meantone - Is it over yet?
Kirnberger III - Ho hum.
Rameau - Darn! It's finished already! (Couldn't you play it again, maybe?...)
You're tone deaf! They're ALL terrible. lol Thank GOD for even temperament.
Nice hair tie, Mr. Moraitis.
Wonderful discussion. This helps me decide on what temperaments to play with on my home Hauptwerk organ.
I have an almost identical spinet (a Japanese Kawai version); I've tried various temperaments and have found that I like Young's temperament the best. I sometimes wonder if later composers, in spite of the victory of equal temperament, still had the flavors of certain keys in mind when composing. I had our piano tuned in Young's as an experiment and the results were very interesting. For example, the Moonlight Sonata sounded very 'right' - somehow hazy or foggy - when played in its authentic C sharp minor. No post-baroque piece sounded odd or wrong.
I am still exploring this issue, but equal temperament did not really become the standard before the 20th century, and therefore even 19th-century composers still thought in terms of key color. I know that there have been studies regarding the music of Schubert (who was influenced by Christian Schubart's description of key characteristics) and Chopin. And as the topic of temperaments is becoming more and more important, there are contemporary composers who are also writing pieces for specific temperaments: for instance, György Ligeti's Passacaglia ungherese and Brice Pauset's Preludes reuire the harpsichord to be tuned to quarter-comma meantone.
@@johnmoraitis Lou Harrison's Piano Concerto requires the piano to be tuned in Kirnberger II. Before the final rehearsals and a performance of Beethoven's Piano Concerto no.3 by our local orchestra, I tried to bribe the piano tuner to secretly put the piano in Young's, as the major thirds in particular in the solo part sound so jangly and out of tune; but unfortunately he refused.
@@heron6462 I'll definitely listen to Lou Harrison's Piano Concerto! And yes, Kirnberger II would not have worked for Beethoven's 3rd!
I love the sound of the quarter comma meantone. It sounds fuller, sweeter, more alive. Lately I’ve been experimenting with third-comma meantone. I’ve tried it on a Bach piece in b minor, where I retuned b-flat to a-sharp and f to e-sharp. It sounds so resonant and beautiful. However, I’m reading in your comments here that composers sometimes exploited the enharmonic inequivalents or wolves in meantone temperaments to create dissonance. I’m guessing this isn’t an issue with Bach but otherwise is there a way to know when a composer is doing this?
First of all, apologies for the belated response! I haven't tried third-comma with Bach, but from your description I'm definitely interested in trying it out! Onto your question. It's a tricky subject, and also very difficult to answer without looking at scores and talking about specific examples. What I would say, though, is that if you examine 17th-century repertory you will see that, on the one hand, composers know how to avoid using areas that sound dissonant (you'd never get the clashes that you would find in Bach, for instance, in places where there's no need for them), but then, when they want to express something unpleasant or poignant (like, for instance, when writing a Tombeau) then they will deliberately exploit these "forbidden" areas, but only in selective passages, so that the effect becomes one of heightened tension rather than something you hear throughout the piece - in other owrds, it sounds planned and not random. I am playing through Louis Couperin's Tombeau de Mr Blancrocher right now, and I think it provides an excellent example of this kind of writing, and I will probably post a video in the near future with a little introduction. And if you look back through my videos, I discuss this aspect with Froberger's c minor suite, as well as a chaconne in g minor by Geoffroy. I hope this helps a bit!
@@johnmoraitis - many thanks for this excellent video! For me, one of the most convincing pieces to suggest that Bach used and exploited Werckmeister iii is the F minor 3-part Invention - *all* the bare 5ths are untempered, and ring out, his minor 3rds are very flat, and the augmented 2nds very spicy. The interplay of these three aspects (open 5ths, minor 3rds, and aug 2nds) seems to me the whole point of this piece, and is almost unbearable... with the tierce de Picardie into F major (of course, the most lush key in Wiii) being the most amazing resolution of the tension.
@@brianmoore2851 Thank you for your comments! I hadn't considered the f minor invention, but after your description, I'm definitely going to try playing it in Werckmeister III!
@@johnmoraitis I hope you enjoy it... I forgot to mention the very wide aug 4th Bb - F... it certainly wakes up the ears!!
Thank you for this presentation!
Fantastic video John, thank you for sharing your knowledge on temperament. You have taught me so much. I am so grateful.
He kinda danced around the most important point: composers wrote their music to fit the temperament that they had. So if you play music (Chopin or Frescobaldi) on an instrument that uses the correct temperament, it sounds completely different (than say the temperament of 1918 which is what is most used today). Bach is a poor choice to demonstrate this because we don't know what temperament he used and because he was driving toward equal temperament. So if John had chosen a different composer who wrote specifically in a particular temperament and played it in that temperament, then when you shift to a different one, you can clearly hear the bad intonation. The differences are much subtler here.
The idea that J. S. Bach was "driving for equal temperament" is an assumption at best.
@@ibikwitty8770 Would you prefer a "champion"? Perhaps an advocate? A sychophant? Equal temperament was his god, and he revelled in it. Perhaps you could describe his slavishness more adroitley? Give it a go...
Your assertion is a complete myth Aindrias (as mentioned in this video if you were paying attention). The 48 preludes and fugues were composed to demonstrate "well temperament", not equal temperament.
@@cottoncandyheart7305 nobody can be sure, but we can get some conclusion from Bach's works: he liked having the possibility to play in every possible totality on the same keyboard. So he probably thought to some "good temperaments" with which it might be possible. Ok, it's an assumption, but it's not so absurd.
Given this, it's probably true also that Bach didn't want to use one single temperament, especially because he loved to write also for choir and wind instruments, and I think you know what, for example, a trumpet player, could reply you if you ask him to play, for example, in Kirnberger III and not in ¼-comma meantone. Probably Bach thought that a certain number of temperaments, using common tonalities (for example those of Brandenburg concertos) would sound exactly the same to a not-trained ear, and so different instruments could play acceptably in tune with the harpsichord continuo.
@@cottoncandyheart7305 Equal temperament didn't exist until a few years ago with electronic tuners. They're about the same thing.
I play the only instrument that was designed for Quarter Comma Mean Tone the Wheatstone Concertina. It has separate D# and Eb, G# and Ab. The instrument I normally play has modern tuning but I have one from 1850 with 3 sets of reeds. I must dig them out and see if any are mean tone. Might have gone out of tune in 170 years though. Not quite as easy to tune as a harpsichord since you need to file the metal reeds and their pitch changes when you take them out of the instrument. Each has its own little resonant chamber.
That's not true. Some 18th century flutes have separate keys for d# and eb.
oh this is absolutely lovely, an excellent video that can be easily used as educational material. you've explained the concepts in the video wonderfully, thank you very much
Fantastic vid, thank you so much for this!
Just my personal preference, but I think the Rameau tuning version is superior.
To me Kirnberger III sounds really beautiful, Rameau unspectacular and number one outright wrong.
John... thank you so much this really brightened my day. Your explanation was so clear and thorough and an amazing performance. It truly warmed my heart.
I'm happy you liked the video!
Amazing performances, John. Bless ya! Escobar, from Brazil.🇧🇷
I thought I had a pretty good ear, but I listen over and over, still not able to tell the difference between the three tunings. I am not sure which chords or intervals to listen for, but ultimately, the prelude sounds good to me in every tuning.
Wouldn't it be nice to have a digital harpsichord that would enable you to switch tunings in a fraction of a second so that the intervals can be compared more readily?
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First of all, don't blame your ear! I think the issue more to do with the fact that in traditional musical training we (and this includes me as well) are never taught anything about different temperaments, so we never develop the ability to distinguish between them. Like everything else, it takes a bit of training to start hearing the differences - and I definitely had to train myself to hear them. I plan to make a video in the future where I play chords side by side in different temperaments, and I hope this will be a little more effective in showing the differences between temperaments.
One quick suggestion: if you have the score to this prelude, listen to those measures that contain an A flat. Since meantone does not have that note - it only has G sharp - the A flat will sound lower than what we would expect, and almost create the feeling that it is out of tune. If you listen to the same measures in the Kirnberger version, this "out-of-tuneness" will not be present.
Incidentally, there is a digital harpsichord like what you describe: it is the Roland C-30, but unfortunately I cannot afford to buy all the instruments I would like to have… :-)
@@johnmoraitis ,
Thanks for the Lucid reply. I gathered from your video, the tuning we now commonly use is not comprised of perfect -or even equal- semitones. It was never explained to me in Harmony class, why certain keys sound "happier" or "more colorful" than others -or why a composer would choose to write in The key of A♭ versus, say, C♯
If I understand your reply correctly, an A♭ triad using modern tuning (whatever that is called) will sound a bit more "stretched" or augmented than chords played in the other keys. (Is there a _name_ for the conventional tuning commonly employed with the modern piano, pipe organ and symphonic instruments? )
Until recently, I had assumed that our 12-tone scale was based on a circle of perfect fifths. And then I did the algebra and realized there was no way to derive a repeating 11-, 12- or 13-tone scale from the natural harmonic column.
I don't even know where to go, to learn what theory has been followed to develop the system we now use. Can you recommend any resources that explain this clearly?
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@@DrChaad What you describe with the perfect fifths not "adding up" exactly is the reason we have temperaments: we need to somehow "temper" both perfect fifths and major thirds (if you do the math, they also don't add up) so that our octaves will be in tune. The standard tuning we use nowadays is called equal temperament, because it narrows all fifths equally and this results in all intervals being tempered by the same amount (and semitones are equidistant). What this also means is that equal temperament does not have key "color," as all tonalities sound (or should sound) the same. However, since this is not the case with other temperaments, that's where the concept of tonalities having different characteristics originated.
As for resources, I would recommend the book "How Equal Temperament Ruined Harmony" by Ross Duffin. As the title suggests, he is not particularly fond of our modern standard (at least he's honest about it!). However, he provides a wonderful and easy to understand history of temperaments, and the book is also easy to find and not expensive at all.
Also couldn't hear any difference, even though I actually tried to compare them side by side. I don't think the key chosen here is good for demonstration purposes. C sharp minor would be (should be) more interesting to hear
Quarter-comma meantone: Crunchy, cringey and drunk
Rameau: Weird, but like the hot goth chick rather than the schizophrenic guy who hangs out at the bench in the park
Kirnberger: Background music for massages and weddings
This made me laugh out loud.
Really interesting, and 3 lovely performances. Thanks.
Wow! What a work done! Thank you!
Third temperament sounds very pleasant.