This was terrific! I really appreciate this! Peter Joseph's lectures introduced me to to the concept that cooperation was primarily how our species survived 200,000 years of human history. I remember in school looking through my history book which was a litany of wars, rulers and conquests, and wondering why the rest of History couldn't be told. Jean Auel's books provide a chance to vicariously experience how our early ancestors may have lived in cooperative groups, accomplishing much more together than they ever could have individually.
One of the best videos of the week. As always, Velshi is informative & Bregman is a ray of hope in a world of many people who just try to impose their reality on the rest of us by shouting louder and lying faster.
“Lord of the Flies” has a positive message too. It shows readers that there are people in this world who will stand up to tyranny even at the expense of their lives. It’s simply a stark example of what happens when there are not enough people willing to stand up for each other. It encourages us to aspire to be courageous builders, not destroyers, but we have to stand together and not listen to those destructive impulses in order to be HUMANE and avoid devolving into our worst selves.
Why would there be book ban in America, land of the Free, home of the Brave? Great video interview from Rutger, thank you! Human nature is inherently "Good".
The Evangelical Religious Right (Dominionists) throughout the USA are rabidly scanning school and public libraries to find books to ban in their local libraries (such as books concerning LGBTQ issues; children's fantasy books like Harry Potter, et al) on threat of removing funding (holding local funding plebiscites) for the libraries and/or having them closed down. School boards have been taken over by these people and school libraries "cleansed" of controversial books that don't promote "Christian values." Libraries in America are under siege by neo-puritans and religious fascists.
I cannot believe any even marginally rational person would seek to ban Lord of the Flies. I had it as a yr 5 set book. Each of my kids had it as a set book in their years 5 or 6, and my oldest grandsons have already read it at 10. The Tongan boys' story is rather different. There were far fewer of them, than in Golding's story, so dividing into effective groups was not possible.
My nine year old daughter, already a big reader, her father thought she might like it and I'm sure she'll read it again when she's older , she's half way through, she'll read then come to me with some interesting question, we've had great conversations
No, it's USING literature to bash conservatives. There is no hope for HUMANkind. I should report for using the word 'mankind', but I'll let it slide this time
I absolutely love this idea that we are, by nature, cooperative, not savage. As that is how I see myself and would like to see others. And it's true that our cooperation negates the need for any type of overlord. Definitely the path I'd like to see humanity take for its future.
_“To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture.”_ -Thomas Paine, _The American Crisis_
In the book, the conflict is played out between two boys, one of whom is a decent kid who wants to play fair and treat everyone equally, while the other is a Trump/Putin/Xi/Lenin/Hitler/Mao type who uses all the classic techniques to destroy fairness and elevate himself to absolute power. The book actually balances and contrasts the two ideas of human nature, but suggests that the cheaters have a natural advantage over the fair-players, and, if given an inch, will triumph. Golding's personal experience was with boys in the British prep schools that glorified aristocracy, rigid class distinctions, bullying and brutality --- and the book is partially a satire of the British class system. I have seen both kids and adults behave in both patterns. Not too long ago, a bunch of young Canadian school kids disappeared in the Rocky Mountains. The authorities gave them up for dead..... until they showed up, hale and hearty, having organized themselves to care for each other, survive, and find their way out. I have many friends that I would unhesitatingly expect to do the same. Scientists, by temperament given to reasoning, co-operative effort, and abjuring violence, can be safely stranded together in Antarctica and will behave accordingly. But if you stranded a bunch of American Republicans in a wilderness, they would rapidly descend into cannibalism. I am particularly disturbed when I hear the terms "individualism" and "collectivism" being absurdly misused in these discussions. I grew up in frontier area of Canada's north, and cherished the concept of "individualism", which clearly meant 1) respecting the rights of each individual, 2) treating other people fairly and as social equals, 3) co-operating rather than using intimidation or force, 4) respecting privacy, 5) abjuring violence, 6) admiring others for their skills, good judgment and good humour rather than for wealth, claimed or inherited status, professed "authority", bluster, or belicosity, 7) feeling nothing but contempt for bullies, self-declared messiahs or "Leaders", and anyone who proclaims themselves superior. That's what "individualism" means. No Conservative, especially in the United States, is describable as an Individualist. The concept is totally alien to the Conservative mentality. When I lived in the United States, my impression was of an extremely Collectivist society, and when I was among Conservatives, and even more so among self-declared "Libertarians", I realized that their mentality was straight out of Stalin's Communist Empire in the Soviet Union.
@@fredbloggs5902 LOL. Ah, the brainless, mechanical, robot-like response typical of that mentality that I just described. I can't think of a better illustration of exactly what I was describing in my comment. But the majority of Americans don't have these pathetic deficiencies, as the upcoming election will demonstrate. I love and admire America and Americans as much Trump supporters hate and betray it.
My theory is that if you have a group of cooperative people, they will work together and try to help each other. On the other hand, if you have a group of people who begin from different 'classes" who have crashed together, then the ones that think that they are better than the others think they should be in charge, and then then start making everyone's decisions. That is the difference between the book and the real life experience. The wonder is in human nature; I propose that that in the book, the difference is class; the levels of society that they came from change them, while the reality of people who were of the same class were cooperative .
I agree that class is often an easy dividing line, but I also argue that humans mostly want to feel individually special and therefore strive to set themselves apart from others. If class differences do not exist, then many will find another reason to divide themselves into special groups. Class, race, gender, etc are just easy and familiar ways to achieve this end but they are the excuse not the reason for the division.
The 'Tongan castaways' (the title of the Wikipedia article) had one advantage that Americans/Europeans generally don't: growing up in a culture of sharing and caring for one another. The boy's survival was predetermined by their cultural upbringing despite being sent to an Anglican boarding school from which they ran away. They knew how to fend for themselves and committed themselves to sharing everything they found edible as well as building a camp on 'Ata, sharing camp routine responsibilities and keeping a signal fire going - they kept their signal fire burning continuously for 15 months! I doubt any group of American/European kids of the same age (13-18) would be able to cope under such austere conditions.
The difference between the society arrived at in "Lord of the Flies" and the Tongan boys produced society might be due, in large part, to the societies they grew up in. The English boys came from a capitalistic society with a strong case system. They constructed a society much like that. The Tongan boys came from a communialistic (socialistic), very religious society that they based there small society after. Apples and oranges.
I recently discovered the story of the Tongan boys in the book "Corruptibles" by Brian Klaas, about hierarchies and how & why we often end up with the wrong people as leaders.. and ways to limit this phenomenon and elect better leaders.. And I just got "The Dictator's handbook" by Bruce Bueno de Mesquita & Alastair Smith which deals with the same topic..
@@gingergrant6759 .. in the real world, hierarchies are a necessity in many cases.. the goal should be to get rid of the useless ones and find ways to find better leaders/representatives..
The Tongan boys were probably already friends in a group that hung out together, to have taken on this big adventure on a whim. I think they represent one like minded group in society. LOTF is representing and exploring society as a whole.
From Sons of Anarchy: Anarchism stands for liberation of the human mind from the dominion of religion; the liberation of the human body from the dominion of property; liberation from shackles and restraint of government. It stands for social order based on the free grouping of individuals.
I have never seen Lord of The Flys as a pessimistic tale. We have dark corners of our being and are capable of all sorts of horrific behavior.We also have a talent for working together and are capable of great acts of love.. Those two thoughts are not mutually exclusive.
Meanwhile the woke will do a remake of the Magnificent 7 and make each character one of the letters in lgbtqia. Oh, wait. I just looked it up. There's more than 7 letters now. It's lgbtqia2s+. So I guess it'll be the Magnificent 9+?
Upon further review: one story was based on English school kids being stranded. The other story was about island boys going on an excursion. It almost implies western society is less likely to cooperate than island societies. One society is based on material acquisition and competition. The other is based on family structure and relationships.
At least they could try.... "it's a Japanese comic...let's burn it anyway.. with the Constitution... oh wait can we Google that?" "Oooh look at that pretty reflecty thing!.. no I wasn't saying anything, was I?"
I'm not a fatalist. Always have been a realist with a list of blessings a mile long when the Lord has saved my life or intervened in an outcome that without prayer would of died. God is Alive My Friends! Try him on for size, he's a Great Fit!
This is what I think while watching every zombie apocalypse movie and many other Hollywood production: people would not react that way. But then maybe American people would - and it may even be because they have been watching Hollywood productions all of their lives, and now think that panicking and being selfish is normal.
Perhaps the answer is the education and awareness of narcissistic and psychopathic personalities that continue to rise in business and politics. The book “The Psychopath Test“ mentions the higher than normal percentage of psychopaths that seek out power and wealth no matter the consequences to society. The planet and all life suffer under their greed and megalomania.
The kids in the real life story were a smaller, more homogeneous, group, so more prone to work together. I read Lord of the Flies. It's conclusion is still relevant.
A Lord of the Flies scenario will happen if some narcissistic megalomaniac becomes the leader of a group and the Tonga boys happened because there was at least one positive leader among them. Most humans follow the leader when life is in danger or when they are manipulated by fear.
I think the comparison of the kids in Lord of the Flies to the kids from Tonga missed an important point brought out toward the end here. The British boys come from a very hierarchical society with aristocrats and commoners, whereas many Pacific island cultures are much less hierarchical (I'm not sure about Tonga specifically). So I'm not sure that one can generalize from the one 'real' example to what would happen with boys from others of the rich cultures of humans. In any case, the wonder of fiction is that anything is possible!
I wonder if this is the same historian who went viral a couple to a few years ago for calling out the super rich at that super rich party the ridiculously rich people hold every year.
Cooperation is natural among near-equals, but concentration of wealth/power makes for superiors/inferiors, as in Lord of the Flies, or any repressive/exploitive economy and government. The US succeeded through the balance of powers - which is gone now in terms of money, technology, media...
Everybody saw the true barbarism of the Left when it looked like Bernie was gonna win the nomination. Progressives will hate you animals forever for what you've said about us.
I am so grateful that I witnessed Cooperative power as I grew up and that is why it is putrid division I'm witnessing when we have so much more to offer such a waste
It's been a long while since I read it, but wasn't there already a rivalry or an established hierarchy between groups before being stranded in Lord of the Flies? Whereas the Tonga boys were a smaller group and from a culture where people are more cooperative and have a strong sense community. Tonga is made up of a group of islands, 36 of the 170 islands are populated. I think that the geography and the culture of Tonga breeds a very different kind of human than a densely populated, powerful Western country. I don't like to go Debbie Downer on hopeful messages, but I think that the outcome of a real life situation that compares to the plot on Lord of the Flies depends a great deal on where those people come from. If I was stranded with a bunch of other Americans and they all came from a cooperative living organic farm, we'd all probably do just fine. But if I wound up stranded with a bunch of the Neanderthal Nuckledragger Americans who have become increasingly obsessed with controlling everyone else, the situation would devolve very quickly.
Perhaps the fictional boys from Lord of the Flies acted differently from the Tonga boys because of cultural differences and how they were raised. The English boys were raised to believe in their own superiority, others are less than and they already bullied some of their members; so Golding put 2 and 2 together and apothesisized the boys would devolve into savages without control. I have no knowledge about Tonga traditions and cultures. I don't know if they are more egalitarian. But perhaps it helped that the boys were friends and chose to go on their adventure together and that helped them keep their humanity.
It is genuinely shocking that the GQP would ban this book, as it was the tea baggers whom brought back Ayn Rand. They love the idea of humans being their most selfish, worst selves at every moment.
It’s a false comparison because: The ‘Tongan Castaways’ were much older (13-19), there were only 6 of them, they already had an established hierarchy, and they cooperated to run away from a boarding school and steal a boat.
Rutger Bregman, did you actually read the book all those years ago? In Golding's novel, the boys are not shipwrecked. It is war time and their plane is shot down.
Read the book entitled "The Dawn of Everything" by Greaber/ Wengrow. Looking at field data showing how humans experimented with different social arrangements throughout history (going back 20,000 years).
To me, Lord Of The Flies is an allegory, rather like George Orwell's Animal Farm, about some of the more unfortunate, and all too recognisable traits of human nature.
We should see both sides of any situation. The fact that in real life we can work together, that we can survive together, tells a different story. We can do great and wonderful things, or we can remain knuckle dragging troglodytes. I believe we are evolving (albeit slowly), we must; because that which does not evolve becomes history.
I wish I had your rosy point of view. Humans did evolve slowly but surely, until fairly recently. But then half the country decided to devolve, on purpose. They are methodically stripping people of their basic human rights. They've become a massive propaganda generating, thinking and believing machine, rather than independent thinkers. They are banning books, even destroying whole libraries. And openly advocating for less education and more limited education. One step forward and two steps back doesn't do the devolution that's occurring in the US justice. Not by a long shot. In the US, in states like FL, MI, TX, AZ, the knuckledraggers rule. And they will put Ron DeathSentance in the White House. We are so screwed. Sadly we are so very screwed.
I wonder though if it would have been different with boys from a private rich kid school rather than Tonga students who have a much different society than an european/ us society.
15 months, huh? So the other take besides the cooperation theme, is that we have a documented time frame for congenial behavior. After that, who knows? That Stockholm syndrome experiment, how long did that last?
As long as there are humans, there is a distinct probability that at least one will suffer from a psychosis that will result in undesirable behavior to others. It's the human condition.
I wonder how much the culture the kids were raised in affects what happens. How is Tongan culture different than English culture of the Lord of the Flies? How hierarchical is it? How much do they view poverty as a judgement of god and something that individuals deserve? I think they have or had a royal family but how isolated from the people is it?
The real shipwreck was with Children. If it had been adults... They would never have survived and it would have been more animalistic. Especially if you put adults with all different races, different religious beliefs, different politics and from different economic classes... Yes it would have been nothing but a bunch of animals. Today's society has become cult-ish and shameful.
Banned? We did it in school. It's been made into a film at least once. Also, I know the story of the kids from Tonga. What those 6 did says nothing about what a larger group of different kids with pre-existing cliques would do. Also, LotF is _fiction,_ FFS. This guy claims to be a historian?
These type of discoveries at times are the way forward to a more acceptable society for the individual not necessarily the guy or woman in power as I have witnessed Dutch society we're not too keen on hierarchy due to a Protestant stream called Calvinism it's this lack of power that views us all like a person nobody is above the law if there are rules in place even for the wealthiest person alive I know it hardly ever seems to go that way but I do agree that if you cannot obey the laws of your own country that you're just a hypocrite a wealthy one perhaps but still a hypocrite
It’s like that scene in The Office where Michael holds his financial documents in the air and proclaims- “I DECLARE BANKRUPTCY!!!!” 🤣 Trump leaving the White House with Top Secrect, SCI documents found in the recent search warrant conducted at the former presidents home, Mara Lago, yelling as loud as he can- “I DECLARE THESE DOCUMENTS UNCLASSIFIED!!!” 😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂😂😂😂🇺🇸
We love Rutger Bregman. But sorry. The gestapo in Texas has forbidden the Diary of Anne Frank at schools. Do the want to wait from 1933 til 1945 ??? Again???? The ""silence majority"" perhaps??
Human kind's survival and positive development is explained by cooperation ....game theory experiments show that games played in a purely competitive way will have one winner and all others being losers but the same games played cooperatively will result in the lowest scorer of the cooperatively played game having a higher absolute score than the winner of the purely competitive game. Think about it.
We have to thank the democrats for unifying the Republican Party and all of the patriotic Americans And again Like usual Dems always overplay there hand.
What's with you and spreading misinformation, there are children with it already across the nation . When the bouboos open and puss and as they are on one's hands it becomes transmissable if you too have a open wound on your hand. Even a paper cut.
This was terrific! I really appreciate this! Peter Joseph's lectures introduced me to to the concept that cooperation was primarily how our species survived 200,000 years of human history. I remember in school looking through my history book which was a litany of wars, rulers and conquests, and wondering why the rest of History couldn't be told. Jean Auel's books provide a chance to vicariously experience how our early ancestors may have lived in cooperative groups, accomplishing much more together than they ever could have individually.
You might enjoy the book Sapiens if you enjoy exploring these ideas.
Whoa ... that's, like ... DEEP! .... man
@@bjornjorgenbjorgenhoogenbo2954 Meaning what? Over your head?
@@brucestaples4510 Whoa ... you're like .. so smart ... man!
@@bjornjorgenbjorgenhoogenbo2954 Everything's relative...man.
One of the best videos of the week. As always, Velshi is informative & Bregman is a ray of hope in a world of many people who just try to impose their reality on the rest of us by shouting louder and lying faster.
“Lord of the Flies” has a positive message too. It shows readers that there are people in this world who will stand up to tyranny even at the expense of their lives. It’s simply a stark example of what happens when there are not enough people willing to stand up for each other. It encourages us to aspire to be courageous builders, not destroyers, but we have to stand together and not listen to those destructive impulses in order to be HUMANE and avoid devolving into our worst selves.
I'm using banned books from all over the US in my classes this year. Don't fear ideas, fear actual terror.
Feirnhiet 451? Book Burning Yet The Stories Are Memorized
Huckleberry Finn is TOTALLY racist!!
I tutor Florida prisoners. Their banned book list is a short novella
Wish I could take your classes.
Thanks for tutoring prisoners.
Why would there be book ban in America, land of the Free, home of the Brave?
Great video interview from Rutger, thank you! Human nature is inherently "Good".
Republican snowflakes
The Evangelical Religious Right (Dominionists) throughout the USA are rabidly scanning school and public libraries to find books to ban in their local libraries (such as books concerning LGBTQ issues; children's fantasy books like Harry Potter, et al) on threat of removing funding (holding local funding plebiscites) for the libraries and/or having them closed down. School boards have been taken over by these people and school libraries "cleansed" of controversial books that don't promote "Christian values."
Libraries in America are under siege by neo-puritans and religious fascists.
Because America was also the home of the slave.
Because we have Republicans. And they've decided that modeling themselves after Nazi society is the thing to do.
If only half of the population understood.
We know who the corrupt party is and it rhymes with poo
Less than 50%
@@antoniosaxon8605 That's how much you understand? Less than 50%?
I cannot believe any even marginally rational person would seek to ban Lord of the Flies. I had it as a yr 5 set book. Each of my kids had it as a set book in their years 5 or 6, and my oldest grandsons have already read it at 10. The Tongan boys' story is rather different. There were far fewer of them, than in Golding's story, so dividing into effective groups was not possible.
My nine year old daughter, already a big reader, her father thought she might like it and I'm sure she'll read it again when she's older , she's half way through, she'll read then come to me with some interesting question, we've had great conversations
Wonderful! It gives me hope. Thank you!
Rutger Bregman is the same guy who destroyed Kremlin Carlson in a debate. So much so fox deleted it, but Bregmans crew didn't.
Intellectual reporting on the themes of classic literature on mainstream media!?!?!!!
Perhaps there IS hope for mankind.
No, it's USING literature to bash conservatives. There is no hope for HUMANkind. I should report for using the word 'mankind', but I'll let it slide this time
I absolutely love this idea that we are, by nature, cooperative, not savage. As that is how I see myself and would like to see others. And it's true that our cooperation negates the need for any type of overlord. Definitely the path I'd like to see humanity take for its future.
_“To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture.”_ -Thomas Paine, _The American Crisis_
An innovative, informed and inspired program for the times. I thank Velshi and MSNBC for this.
In the book, the conflict is played out between two boys, one of whom is a decent kid who wants to play fair and treat everyone equally, while the other is a Trump/Putin/Xi/Lenin/Hitler/Mao type who uses all the classic techniques to destroy fairness and elevate himself to absolute power. The book actually balances and contrasts the two ideas of human nature, but suggests that the cheaters have a natural advantage over the fair-players, and, if given an inch, will triumph. Golding's personal experience was with boys in the British prep schools that glorified aristocracy, rigid class distinctions, bullying and brutality --- and the book is partially a satire of the British class system.
I have seen both kids and adults behave in both patterns. Not too long ago, a bunch of young Canadian school kids disappeared in the Rocky Mountains. The authorities gave them up for dead..... until they showed up, hale and hearty, having organized themselves to care for each other, survive, and find their way out. I have many friends that I would unhesitatingly expect to do the same. Scientists, by temperament given to reasoning, co-operative effort, and abjuring violence, can be safely stranded together in Antarctica and will behave accordingly. But if you stranded a bunch of American Republicans in a wilderness, they would rapidly descend into cannibalism.
I am particularly disturbed when I hear the terms "individualism" and "collectivism" being absurdly misused in these discussions. I grew up in frontier area of Canada's north, and cherished the concept of "individualism", which clearly meant 1) respecting the rights of each individual, 2) treating other people fairly and as social equals, 3) co-operating rather than using intimidation or force, 4) respecting privacy, 5) abjuring violence, 6) admiring others for their skills, good judgment and good humour rather than for wealth, claimed or inherited status, professed "authority", bluster, or belicosity, 7) feeling nothing but contempt for bullies, self-declared messiahs or "Leaders", and anyone who proclaims themselves superior. That's what "individualism" means. No Conservative, especially in the United States, is describable as an Individualist. The concept is totally alien to the Conservative mentality. When I lived in the United States, my impression was of an extremely Collectivist society, and when I was among Conservatives, and even more so among self-declared "Libertarians", I realized that their mentality was straight out of Stalin's Communist Empire in the Soviet Union.
You have TDS, get help.
@@fredbloggs5902 LOL. Ah, the brainless, mechanical, robot-like response typical of that mentality that I just described. I can't think of a better illustration of exactly what I was describing in my comment. But the majority of Americans don't have these pathetic deficiencies, as the upcoming election will demonstrate. I love and admire America and Americans as much Trump supporters hate and betray it.
My theory is that if you have a group of cooperative people, they will work together and try to help each other. On the other hand, if you have a group of people who begin from different 'classes" who have crashed together, then the ones that think that they are better than the others think they should be in charge, and then then start making everyone's decisions. That is the difference between the book and the real life experience. The wonder is in human nature; I propose that that in the book, the difference is class; the levels of society that they came from change them, while the reality of people who were of the same class were cooperative .
I agree that class is often an easy dividing line, but I also argue that humans mostly want to feel individually special and therefore strive to set themselves apart from others. If class differences do not exist, then many will find another reason to divide themselves into special groups. Class, race, gender, etc are just easy and familiar ways to achieve this end but they are the excuse not the reason for the division.
We had it as obligatory reading in sxhool
The 'Tongan castaways' (the title of the Wikipedia article) had one advantage that Americans/Europeans generally don't: growing up in a culture of sharing and caring for one another.
The boy's survival was predetermined by their cultural upbringing despite being sent to an Anglican boarding school from which they ran away. They knew how to fend for themselves and committed themselves to sharing everything they found edible as well as building a camp on 'Ata, sharing camp routine responsibilities and keeping a signal fire going - they kept their signal fire burning continuously for 15 months!
I doubt any group of American/European kids of the same age (13-18) would be able to cope under such austere conditions.
The difference between the society arrived at in "Lord of the Flies" and the Tongan boys produced society might be due, in large part, to the societies they grew up in. The English boys came from a capitalistic society with a strong case system. They constructed a society much like that. The Tongan boys came from a communialistic (socialistic), very religious society that they based there small society after. Apples and oranges.
I recently discovered the story of the Tongan boys in the book "Corruptibles" by Brian Klaas, about hierarchies and how & why we often end up with the wrong people as leaders.. and ways to limit this phenomenon and elect better leaders..
And I just got "The Dictator's handbook" by Bruce Bueno de Mesquita & Alastair Smith which deals with the same topic..
The part that's wrong about it is even having a hierarchy
@@gingergrant6759 .. in the real world, hierarchies are a necessity in many cases.. the goal should be to get rid of the useless ones and find ways to find better leaders/representatives..
I'm reading Humankind right now! So glad to catch this interview :)
I could listen to Mr. Bregman’s take on any topic all day, every day. Big fan. Thank you for this interview!
The Tongan boys were probably already friends in a group that hung out together, to have taken on this big adventure on a whim. I think they represent one like minded group in society. LOTF is representing and exploring society as a whole.
From Sons of Anarchy: Anarchism stands for liberation of the human mind from the dominion of religion; the liberation of the human body from the dominion of property; liberation from shackles and restraint of government. It stands for social order based on the free grouping of individuals.
I have never seen Lord of The Flys as a pessimistic tale. We have dark corners of our being and are capable of all sorts of horrific behavior.We also have a talent for working together and are capable of great acts of love.. Those two thoughts are not mutually exclusive.
This book was an influence on me studying psychology and human behavior.
They ban anything that reflects on who they are. Lord of the flys fits them so well?
ReThuglicant s
Animal Farm
Meanwhile the woke will do a remake of the Magnificent 7 and make each character one of the letters in lgbtqia. Oh, wait. I just looked it up. There's more than 7 letters now. It's lgbtqia2s+. So I guess it'll be the Magnificent 9+?
@@winstonsmith8565 "The Seven Samurai" also?
My thought also when I read the title of this segment. LOTF is the Republican playbook.
Upon further review: one story was based on English school kids being stranded. The other story was about island boys going on an excursion. It almost implies western society is less likely to cooperate than island societies. One society is based on material acquisition and competition. The other is based on family structure and relationships.
Maga: "What's a book?"
Well, it's a....
Maga: "Never mind, just burn it."
comedian: says something funny
the woke: "I don't like that! You're cancelled!"
comedian: "It's just a joke"
the woke: "What's a joke?"
At least they could try.... "it's a Japanese comic...let's burn it anyway.. with the Constitution... oh wait can we Google that?"
"Oooh look at that pretty reflecty thing!.. no I wasn't saying anything, was I?"
Great segment! Thanks to you and your guest, Mr. Velshi
Survival of the friendliest! Love it!
I'm not a fatalist. Always have been a realist with a list of blessings a mile long when the Lord has saved my life or intervened in an outcome that without prayer would of died. God is Alive My Friends! Try him on for size, he's a Great Fit!
Read as a child...Boy does it fit today ☹️
Democratssupporttranschildren
wanda
@@reality6968 where is your humanity and empathy. How awful it must be not to be happy in your own skin.
@@reality6968 Democrats support allowing children to be who they are. And adults. That's what the US was founded on.
This is what I think while watching every zombie apocalypse movie and many other Hollywood production: people would not react that way. But then maybe American people would - and it may even be because they have been watching Hollywood productions all of their lives, and now think that panicking and being selfish is normal.
the human race is stranded on this island, Earth, and Golding is not so far wrong!!!
Perhaps the answer is the education and awareness of narcissistic and psychopathic personalities that continue to rise in business and politics. The book “The Psychopath Test“ mentions the higher than normal percentage of psychopaths that seek out power and wealth no matter the consequences to society. The planet and all life suffer under their greed and megalomania.
The kids in the real life story were a smaller, more homogeneous, group, so more prone to work together. I read Lord of the Flies. It's conclusion is still relevant.
From what I remember the kids in “Lord of the Flies” was also a homogeneous group.
A Lord of the Flies scenario will happen if some narcissistic megalomaniac becomes the leader of a group and the Tonga boys happened because there was at least one positive leader among them. Most humans follow the leader when life is in danger or when they are manipulated by fear.
The boys were native Tongans, not Europeans; massive difference.
Lord of the Flies is to teach lessons of what could happen, what to avoid….etc. not to be banned.
The Tongan boys story is GREAT. BOTH BOOKS Depict great lessons. Both books should be on the shelves.
I think the comparison of the kids in Lord of the Flies to the kids from Tonga missed an important point brought out toward the end here. The British boys come from a very hierarchical society with aristocrats and commoners, whereas many Pacific island cultures are much less hierarchical (I'm not sure about Tonga specifically). So I'm not sure that one can generalize from the one 'real' example to what would happen with boys from others of the rich cultures of humans. In any case, the wonder of fiction is that anything is possible!
Key point here was they were Tongan. Go live in the Islands for a few months, they have a very different perspective to the West.
I wonder if this is the same historian who went viral a couple to a few years ago for calling out the super rich at that super rich party the ridiculously rich people hold every year.
It tis
Cooperation is natural among near-equals, but concentration of wealth/power makes for superiors/inferiors, as in Lord of the Flies, or any repressive/exploitive economy and government. The US succeeded through the balance of powers - which is gone now in terms of money, technology, media...
There is a 1963 British film Lord of the flies based on the novel which I highly recommend.
The GQP is what you get when Lord Of The Flies happens to adults, who don’t care about law or rules.
d-uuuuh me NO LlKES the GOP d-errrr thems be the BAD peoples D-OlllllllEEEEEEEEEE !!
Everybody saw the true barbarism of the Left when it looked like Bernie was gonna win the nomination. Progressives will hate you animals forever for what you've said about us.
@@winstonsmith8565
“…about us.”
Your comment is ambiguous.
Who is us?
I am so grateful that I witnessed Cooperative power as I grew up and that is why it is putrid division I'm witnessing when we have so much more to offer such a waste
It all comes down to the core basic view of people as either inherently evil or inherently good.
Thank you.
It's been a long while since I read it, but wasn't there already a rivalry or an established hierarchy between groups before being stranded in Lord of the Flies? Whereas the Tonga boys were a smaller group and from a culture where people are more cooperative and have a strong sense community. Tonga is made up of a group of islands, 36 of the 170 islands are populated. I think that the geography and the culture of Tonga breeds a very different kind of human than a densely populated, powerful Western country. I don't like to go Debbie Downer on hopeful messages, but I think that the outcome of a real life situation that compares to the plot on Lord of the Flies depends a great deal on where those people come from. If I was stranded with a bunch of other Americans and they all came from a cooperative living organic farm, we'd all probably do just fine. But if I wound up stranded with a bunch of the Neanderthal Nuckledragger Americans who have become increasingly obsessed with controlling everyone else, the situation would devolve very quickly.
Was going to post something similar. The cultures in Tonga and similar south seas islands is vastly different that the world we all live in.
Perhaps the fictional boys from Lord of the Flies acted differently from the Tonga boys because of cultural differences and how they were raised. The English boys were raised to believe in their own superiority, others are less than and they already bullied some of their members; so Golding put 2 and 2 together and apothesisized the boys would devolve into savages without control. I have no knowledge about Tonga traditions and cultures. I don't know if they are more egalitarian. But perhaps it helped that the boys were friends and chose to go on their adventure together and that helped them keep their humanity.
Can we refer to DJ TRUMP...the lord of the FRIES?
"People are flushing toilets 10 times, 15 times, as opposed to once." --DJT, December 6, 2019
It is genuinely shocking that the GQP would ban this book, as it was the tea baggers whom brought back Ayn Rand. They love the idea of humans being their most selfish, worst selves at every moment.
It’s a false comparison because:
The ‘Tongan Castaways’ were much older (13-19), there were only 6 of them, they already had an established hierarchy, and they cooperated to run away from a boarding school and steal a boat.
Rutger Bregman, did you actually read the book all those years ago? In Golding's novel, the boys are not shipwrecked. It is war time and their plane is shot down.
Annoys me that Bregman implies that he 'discovered' the Tonga boys story, despite it being told time and again for decades since they were rescued.
Rutger is positively brilliant
Interesting! Thanks AV 👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼🎯
Oooooo
Is that the guy who told off Tucker Carlson to his face?!
Yup!☺️
Lol! Yes.
Search TH-cam for "Tucker Carlson Blows Up at Rutger Bregman in Unaired Fox News Interview"
@@RaymondHng
It’s so good.
You only have to search Rutger Bregman and that take down pops up.
Lord of the flies I wonder what group of people or party that could be connected with 🤨.
Both
Read the book entitled "The Dawn of Everything" by Greaber/ Wengrow.
Looking at field data showing how humans experimented with different social arrangements throughout history (going back 20,000 years).
This is really interesting report. Thank you
You’re kidding? Ban the Bible.
The book was brilliant. The writer was a prophet. Shows the worst side of humanity.
Was full of plot holes and dead ends. Was a dry boring book.
@@betchface752 so ban it? Lol. Makes no sense.
@@WeinSteinBergWitz no book should be banned even bad ones.
The woke need to rewrite the Bible and literally make Adam and Eve into Adam and Steve
To me, Lord Of The Flies is an allegory, rather like George Orwell's Animal Farm, about some of the more unfortunate, and all too recognisable traits of human nature.
We should see both sides of any situation. The fact that in real life we can work together, that we can survive together, tells a different story. We can do great and wonderful things, or we can remain knuckle dragging troglodytes. I believe we are evolving (albeit slowly), we must; because that which does not evolve becomes history.
I wish I had your rosy point of view. Humans did evolve slowly but surely, until fairly recently. But then half the country decided to devolve, on purpose. They are methodically stripping people of their basic human rights. They've become a massive propaganda generating, thinking and believing machine, rather than independent thinkers. They are banning books, even destroying whole libraries. And openly advocating for less education and more limited education. One step forward and two steps back doesn't do the devolution that's occurring in the US justice. Not by a long shot. In the US, in states like FL, MI, TX, AZ, the knuckledraggers rule. And they will put Ron DeathSentance in the White House. We are so screwed. Sadly we are so very screwed.
They'll fight about banned books but have no problem banning Truth from their broadcasts!
That is kind of the point of banning books.
Law and order are limping after the void created by the absence of morals and personal responsibility
It's how I read Ayn Rand. The ultimate opposite of what is natural to empathic people
Her heroes do have empathy. They just don't pity people.
Objectivism isn't egotistical or callous.
@@InfiniteJustice You're egotistical and callous
And a total, total snooze. Every dork that's waved Ayn Rand at me and said "oh, brilliant!" is lying about having read her.
I respect that. I tried to read Ayn Rand and got too angry to get very far in it.
I wonder though if it would have been different with boys from a private rich kid school rather than Tonga students who have a much different society than an european/ us society.
15 months, huh? So the other take besides the cooperation theme, is that we have a documented time frame for congenial behavior. After that, who knows? That Stockholm syndrome experiment, how long did that last?
As long as there are humans, there is a distinct probability that at least one will suffer from a psychosis that will result in undesirable behavior to others. It's the human condition.
I always thought the same about cynicism. Cynics are people who are to lazy or scared to try.
I've always thought "dog eat dog" was propaganda and rationalization by people who wanted to behave badly.
I wonder how much the culture the kids were raised in affects what happens. How is Tongan culture different than English culture of the Lord of the Flies? How hierarchical is it? How much do they view poverty as a judgement of god and something that individuals deserve? I think they have or had a royal family but how isolated from the people is it?
It's been banned in parts of the USA? In Britain lord of the flies was my English lit book when I was 14
I had it in high-school 10 years ago. The Times they are a-changing. Back to 1930's Germany.
It was required reading when I was in school.
Hey if we are going to start burning books, i will go pay real money for a copy of "the art of the deal" and the diesel to accomplish the deed lol.
Don't pay for it - that'll only encourage them to print more.
@@UkeCan1 hoping i can use one copy to light the rest lol.
The real shipwreck was with Children. If it had been adults... They would never have survived and it would have been more animalistic. Especially if you put adults with all different races, different religious beliefs, different politics and from different economic classes... Yes it would have been nothing but a bunch of animals. Today's society has become cult-ish and shameful.
They were 13-19.
i think i need a longer dicussion about this 😅
Omg, I just realized who the pig's head is. But, remember the stick is pointed on both ends. 🙂
Banned? We did it in school. It's been made into a film at least once. Also, I know the story of the kids from Tonga. What those 6 did says nothing about what a larger group of different kids with pre-existing cliques would do. Also, LotF is _fiction,_ FFS. This guy claims to be a historian?
There's a new book coming out featuring Trump ... Lord of the Files.
These type of discoveries at times are the way forward to a more acceptable society for the individual not necessarily the guy or woman in power as I have witnessed Dutch society we're not too keen on hierarchy due to a Protestant stream called Calvinism it's this lack of power that views us all like a person nobody is above the law if there are rules in place even for the wealthiest person alive I know it hardly ever seems to go that way but I do agree that if you cannot obey the laws of your own country that you're just a hypocrite a wealthy one perhaps but still a hypocrite
It’s like that scene in The Office where Michael holds his financial documents in the air and proclaims- “I DECLARE BANKRUPTCY!!!!” 🤣
Trump leaving the White House with Top Secrect, SCI documents found in the recent search warrant conducted at the former presidents home, Mara Lago, yelling as loud as he can-
“I DECLARE THESE DOCUMENTS UNCLASSIFIED!!!” 😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂😂😂😂🇺🇸
The poor fools think people need to be shipwrecked to see human nature... Dont follow the blind, it is written!
Lord of The Flies is banned in America? Whaaat?
Wow wow wow. Rushdie's ex wife wrote the story from a female perspective. Called John Dollar. It's Jeepers!
We love Rutger Bregman. But sorry. The gestapo in Texas has forbidden the Diary of Anne Frank at schools. Do the want to wait from 1933 til 1945 ??? Again???? The ""silence majority"" perhaps??
Human kind's survival and positive development is explained by cooperation ....game theory experiments show that games played in a purely competitive way will have one winner and all others being losers but the same games played cooperatively will result in the lowest scorer of the cooperatively played game having a higher absolute score than the winner of the purely competitive game.
Think about it.
Lord of the Flies
Planet edition
I think it's cute that there are still people out there that believe that humans are good.
Some of us are. Truly.
I think it's sad that there are people out there who believe that because they are bad everyone must be. 🙄
Piggy No!!!!!🥺😭🐷
Arrest bonespurs
Hillsdale
Joke of an outfit. Put on a suit
We have to thank the democrats for unifying the Republican Party and all of the patriotic Americans
And again Like usual Dems always overplay there hand.
What's the deal with Monkeypox and HOMOSEXUALS?
What's with you and spreading misinformation, there are children with it already across the nation . When the bouboos open and puss and as they are on one's hands it becomes transmissable if you too have a open wound on your hand. Even a paper cut.
Try to keep up, Lady Malaprop.
Scared you moght have caught it from a Grindr date, William?
We evolved through Survival of the Fittest.
No, we evolve through survival of the most adaptable to change.
But what about Donald Trump isn't he more important to talk about right now
Okay.
"I don't care if they have F♡cking weapons! They're not here to hurt ME!!"
--Donut Chimp.
Lord of the Flies sucked and should be banned...another high school book I lost "by accident."
ALl VELSHl lS THE HARDEST WORKING ACTOR IN SHOW BUSINESS