It annoys me. I’m bisexual myself and i feel as if people are just throwing bisexual characters around. Please actually consider your decision here and realise that you can’t just throw sexualities about. Some characters are clearly heterosexual but by trying to make them lgbt, it feels offensive. Being bisexual isn’t a ‘token’ as Jill said and it shouldn’t be seen as ‘quirky’ and the go to opinion for a sexuality in comics. Actually consider the character before jumping in just to make more money off these characters. I find it offensive and i know i’m not alone with it. Representation works fine when it’s done in the correct way, it works well when they actually represent it correctly, not throwing the sexuality about. Totally agree with almost everything i’ve heard so far Jay :))
@@rambonambo3510 Unfortunately that’s true. I really don’t understand why you can’t have an opinion on it if you’re not lgbt, everyone’s opinions is valid.
@@lilsarmichan look at someone like yungrippa. I don't always agree with him but he said something about a black character being silly about a month ago and people were calling him racist when he's literally black. They were saying that he was like a Uncle Tom and all this crap. These people turn on their own groups real fast when they don't agree.
so sorry about the hate you received for what you think dude. Regardless of your opinions on the situation, they're clearly not formed from homophobia or hatred, and you shouldn't be attacked the way you have.
Well i appreciate you saying that. Most people in this comments section have been very civil even when they disagree with me. The ones who can't do that or go straight to crazy labels, accusations or ad hominem attacks aren't worth my time and aren't really proving anything beyond the fact that they never learned how to have a discussion. I make videos knowing that comes with personal attacks and is the internet.
@@cristinamanghi5147 maybe I’m ignorant but I still don’t see it. At least with the examples he showed. Of course I don’t know the context of the scenes as he didn’t explain it but I don’t see it as romantic interest. The my Robin and My Superboy comments can be seen as simply tongue and cheek with some sincerity. The hug is just platonic to me, you’d hug your brother for comfort wouldn’t you? I’m straight (well possibly ace) so I’m of course not an authority on this, but I just don’t see Tim specifically being Bi.
@@rexventura4603 I also watched the comic Drake video. Everyone who agrees with this writing points to that video but Drake's entire proof is just that nobody ever said he's heterosexual. I hate to use innocent till proven guilty on something like being bisexual cuz it sounds mean but he almost went with a guilty until proven innocent approach where unless someone specifically states that they are heterosexual they can be interpreted in any way. I guess to me that seems like flimsy proof from drake.
Yea, i kinda feel the same thing about Disney characters turning a different race. It would be better if you leave the characters original race alone and make a new character that is black, Mexican or Asian
I’m bisexual and never have dated a guy… I’ve been with my girlfriend for a year and this pisses me off… I’ve mostly been pissed off by the people asking for this. They want LGBT characters, they don’t want LGBT characters to die, they want the LGBTQ characters to have main rolls, they want LGBTQ characters to replace the current ones… I’m very appreciative that we got 1 well written LGBT character (batwoman) instead of a ton of poorly written characters that’s main trait is gay… thank you for the vid
Good video, big man. I did my English Speech in class on comic representation and your points aligned completely with what I said in class. When first researching for LGBTQ+ characters, I found an article on Tim Drake being bi and I was dumbfounded. Then reading the article, it seemed like his sexuality came out of nowhere and was only mentioned or built upon in that one Urban Legends comic. I'm so glad that you had the guts to speak out about this controversy, good job! Before anyone harasses me, I'm a closeted trans so you can't hurt me more than my brain does.
Tim is my favorite Bat-family member and arguably one of my favorite DC characters. This just reminds me of what Marvel did with Iceman. It’s not bad that he is bi, but the way they went about it felt like they wanted to check off a box but didn’t want to take the chance and create a new character or push an already existing character that already is that. (Also, 5:09 RIP to Tim’s solo Robin & Red Robin series)
@@DirtyDev what i mean is people are getting gay and bi confused its not the same whatsoever. And also every time they make a new character thats bi or gay it gets hate so whats the point
@@voiceoftheknight1939 If that were true, then whats the point of changing established characters then? Nothing is stopping them from making new characters.
10:08 Robin just fucking murdered someone (love when the games glitch like that and youre able to accidently "kill" ppl in the arkham games, so ironic🤣)
It literally proves the point if there are 3 to 5 people who dislike the video within 10 seconds of going up without listening to it. That shows how unopen to conversation people are and how they just assume they have the right side of history attitude with the topic.
People don't get that. They just plug their ears and say I can't listen and hit dislike then run away or unsubscribe. That's all those types of people know how to do. They were never taught how to present an argument or how to disagree without running away or starting a big scene.
@@belykwater5601 That sounds like a personal assumption without any data to back it up. But I wouldn't know since I'm not a part of any group that identifies itself as being pro or against some sexuality. I just figure people can do whatever they want if they're not hurting anyone. I'm also not someone who can't listen to an opinion either and form my own.
@@gontagokaharu7638 That’s the thing, if they make him bi and be romantically involved with a woman then Twitter will lose their goddamn minds like they always do because it’s “queer-baiting”. If they make him bi and be romantically involved with a man then that throws away Tim and Steph’s relationship. It just gets completely screwed up in the end and honestly the best way to avoid this sort of thing is to just make new characters that are well written and interesting yet still have that detail being their sexuality, but mostly as a background thing that is just sort of there. Like the comic book Batwoman, she’s a perfect example of such. Changing straight characters to be LGBT could possibly destroy a fantastic and well developed relationship, which is why already existing characters shouldn’t be changed and they should make new characters that are LGBT(but not every new character has to be LGBT, it doesn’t need to be that much).
@@awesomusprime8611 what if he has a thing where he can't choose between Stephanie or a guy he's in love with, they could play the romantic trope to create stakes, and plot devices.
@@gontagokaharu7638 Now that could work however I think most people have come to like Tim and Steph together and I that’s the main reason that I’m upset because in that very situation you just gave there are two different outcomes. 1.) Tim stays with Steph and the morons on Twitter lose their shit and call it “queer-baiting”. 2.) Tim hooks up with a guy and his relationship with Steph is thrown away which will obviously upset the fans of the characters and their relationship. I personally hate seeing incredible relationships just thrown away. Like Dick Grayson and Starfire, I absolutely love seeing them as a couple, they are just too damn adorable. So of course I hate it when they call it off whether it be permanently or not, and of course I get so happy when they would get back together. Even in new incarnations of the characters I want to see their adorable relationship. That’s one reason why I hate the Starfire from Titans, one reason among many. Her relationship with Dick is basically nonexistent and it genuinely pisses me off. I’ve got no problem with LGBT characters and relationships in the comics. Kate Kane, Batwoman, is an awesome character in the comics, not that awful CW show though, she’s awesome in the comics. I just think that they should be introducing new characters that are LGBT and writing them as interesting characters instead of changing old characters to be LGBT to get brownie points from the SJWs on Twitter that do nothing but screech while smashing their keyboards because somebody said the word “slave” or some shit. Yeah seriously, Disney’s trying to change the name of Boba Fett’s ship from Star Wars because it’s called the Slave I, and apparently the word “slave” is offensive. If we let these people continue to be in control then the world will be totally fucked. Let’s just make some good content from these franchises.
12:01 Some people on Twitter are like the 13 Reasons Why fans who despite the show being about a girl who killed herself told people who didn't like it to kill themselves.
I really appreciate how y'all went further in-depht about DC's tokenism practices. It is really frustrating that DC pushes marginalized characters to the side and then change an established character to make a social statement. I got into the Batwoman character relatively late. And it sucks that by the time I familiarized myself with the character she's no longer being featured anywhere. And the best they can do is "well Robin is bisexual now." Thanks, but no thanks, DC.
Honestly, I understand where you’re coming from. I will fully respect your opinion, hell, it might even be a fact. Though, I sort of like the idea even though it is a cash grab. I do NOT show hate to those who think otherwise. Tbh it’s just a page, it’s not something to hassle someone over. I hope you two have a wonderful day/night.
I agree, i think its time for a gay couple in the dc universe. we have plenty of lesbian ones, which is great, its about time for robin to date a guy lmao.
@@gontagokaharu7638 yall didn't herd the argument well. It not about a Robin being gay is changing a character with long history for gay baiting. They want gay character they can make it. DC has alot of talented writers. They can do it
I'm going to be honest Jay, going into this video I didn't agree with you. But now, not even 10 minutes into the video, I completely agree with everything you are saying. They've taken this character and tokenized him for nothing other than sales. It's so utterly offensive and the worst part is that without looking into it and really thinking about it it doesn't seem offensive. It really is one of the worst form of "representation" in comics. They really are just using an entire almost 10% of the world population as a tool to sell their comics and its actually disgusting. I'm bisexual and seeing "representation" like this thrown around when really it's just tokenization is just flat out offensive in the most obvious way. Love your content, Jay and I always like how you're willing to voice your opinions and actually back them up regardless of how you know people will react. It's nice to see someone genuine for a change
He scared me for a min, not gonna lie. But the points he gives makes sense, which is why I like this channel so much. I don't have a problem with them making Tim bi, but I agree that the reason is pretty scummy. But what can one expect, its a company. They don't exactly care about us people, only whats in our wallets. Its not an excuse of course, but its sadly the reality of things.
I recommend for you to read bisexual characters like Constantine, Deadpool, Harley Quinn, and Valkerye. I am sure there is so much more. I always liked deadpool. I saw Constantine in the animated movies and he's a cool character. Also Harley Quinn is great. These characters they are openly bi, that is not the defining point of these characters.
Dude you should really look into Tim Drake it's been very obvious for a long time he's bi many of his interactions with Superboy go far past being just close friends this is not just tokenism
@@msbkaioken136 They say that because he grieve Conner Kent death. Men can show affection for each other without being sexually attracted. This perpetuates a bad stereotype.
I think that's mainly because he was never written into a relationship seriously, meaning no author put time and effort into developing a relationship for him. He had Stephanie, but it wasn't set in stone they were be all end all. The joke probably arose comparing him to all the other Bat-family characters with established love interests of the opposite sex and saying "so when's he gonna come out of the closet already? (it being funny that he was the only one without a girlfriend when everyone else did)" I personally never felt like Tim had an established love interest other than writers pairing him with Spoiler or Supergirl, but making him bi just to pander to crowds and pairing him with a complete nobody feels fanfic-y.
He's not my favorite Robin (that goes to Jason) but he is definitely the one I respect the most. The guy had a better life than any Robin before or after him and threw it aside because Batman was getting too brutal. It's a shame to see him subjected to poor writing
As a pansexual I don’t mind LGBT representation in comics. Hell my favorite Marvel character, Deadpool is pansexual. But I hate that writers will change race, sex, or sexuality just to make a group happy. It doesn’t make sense. It’s the same thing as if I changed a gay character to a straight one. Just make a new character or use characters that are already part of the group. It’s not that hard.
Couldn't agree more. I'm straight, but that doesn't mean I'm opposed to seeing different characters in comics. Deadpool has always been pansexual, so that makes complete sense. Constantine has always been bi, so it would've made NO sense if he were only into girls. But Tim has always been in straight relationships and had been portrayed as straight. If they wanted a bit character, make a new one. Take Aqualad from the Young Justice show; it was a natural revelation that he had a boyfriend (even tho he once crushed on a girl) made sense. So no, Tim Drake isn't bi; he's straight. DC, my advice to you is to create new characters.
Deadpool is also done extremely well in that regard so that's a good point. And tbh I'm sure there's complaints from someone but I don't think people really care about Deadpool's sexuality in terms of thinking it was forced or random or not well written etc. He's just been a pretty solid character and is something to strive for if DC wants that as well without looking like they're just trying to make headlines and not caring what they're talking about
The thing is Tim drake was literally implied as being Bi for years OR AT LEAST it was implied that him being indeed bi wouldn’t be a nonsense canon wise. + lets remind ourselves than ANY amount of sexual or romantic interaction with a million different women DOES NOT invalidate bisexuality in a man… + the whole argument of just making new lgbt characters makes few sense… in the real life people someone knew for decades could turn out to be lgbt and that happens ALL THE FUCKING time especially in our society so in comics there’s no way to justify that not happening… Than again there are characters that are ABSOLUTELY straight canon wise and changing that would be lame but thats not the case with Tim drake there are MANY instances a possibility of bisexuality is presented
@@blahblahblah6898 Yeah, I understand what you mean. The best thing about comics are that when it comes to DC and Marvel, your Superman might be different than mine. Example: You might see the animated version as the real Superman and I might see the Christopher Reeve as the real one. Same thing goes with Tim Drake (whether he's straight or bi), or how the Joker was created (one bad day or fell in a vat of toxic waste), etc. This is the type of diversity that's good, where it isn't forced down our throats. It has to be natural.
When will companies learn to just create new characters or just use the ones they already have existing in catalog. On top of that it’s always B list characters. They would never dare make batman black or gay yet he sells the most.
Like jay said, this is very similar to making Clark Kent African American, why not just use a pre-existing African American character like Val zod, hell why not just make a movie about steel
@@reecejohnston9817 it’s getting to the point where whoever’s in charge needs to be held accountable because it’s not like a small minority of people are saying these things either, DC just seems super out of touch
Glad this video got uploaded. Gave me a chance to say what I really wanted to say. I couldn't do it on IGN's channel last night. Not without my comment getting deleted or not posted at all I struggle with that on that channel. Comments not posting or being deleted. I think it's even happened to non controversial non political comments I've made. I don't know if it's just me dealing with this or what.
Bunker from the new 52 was one of my favorite characters added in the new 52. He was fun and had a cool power. He is gay. Something that really pissed me off is that dcs Instagram used him for a pride day post even though I haven’t seen him in anything since the new 52. Maybe he has been in rebirth but if so its prob very little. Bat woman was also included in this. And so it just felt like “hey look at us we have lgbtq characters” when half of them are barely used or I haven’t even heard of ever
Bunker is a GREAT character with a really cool personality and unique powers. There's so much potential to be had with him and he can be a titular poster gay character, but NOOOOO let's just ignore him and other lgbt's and change up some preestablished characters with more than 30 years of history just because we can
For me Tim Drake and Stephanie Brown are those characters that doesn't feel complete without each other like Green Arrow and Black Canary, Superman and Lois Lane, Luke Cage and Jessica Jones and Spider-Man and MJ.
I feel like they try to do this to make it seem like they have a large lgbtq fans by rebranding popular characters as whatever they use If Batman was changed into a gay black man, it would sell because its still batman. Yes some will like it more because its representing, but it will be popular more because its batman, than because its lgbtq
@@jonathancarvajal6189 I see your point but he has hinted to have feelings for super boy. I agree with this whole video and they should just keep him striaght tbh
But the line between Straight and Bi is very different, but because straight characters don't go around saying "Hey i'm straight" and on top of that have a Bromance moment with another guy they pass it off as hinting they Bi
The problem is that he obviously was thought as a straight character like so many more but people can shield behind bisexuality because he just had sex with a lot of woman and now the time where it's popular to make lgbt characters he states his sexuality
I hate when they change pre existing characters. Change characters this way isn’t gonna get you money it’s gonna lose you money. Yet somehow they don’t realize that.
I suffer from Schizophrenia and seeing games like Celeste and Senua's Sacrifice do so well at treating mental health made me really happy. Representation does make media better when implemented well.
@@belykwater5601 I'm more implying representation makes media better for those who identify with the correlating belief. Nonrepresentation does not hurt any form of media, however, if implemented respectfully and is woven into the character, it can improve an individual's perspective of such work.
@@travisbishop782 according to whom exactly? And you do realize a shit ton of people stay in the closet or just don't realize or want to accept their nature until they are well into being an adult, right? So a writer going into that route with an already established character with a history of sus moments with Superboy isn't unrealistic and very much in line with how people usually tend to come out in real life.
@@GodsTears42 because this is just tokenism at it worst. It seem to me and quite a lot of people that the writer did this as a piss poor attempt to check off a box on a list. And from the excerpt that Jay read in the video, it was just horrible writing in general. They had no nuance, no build-up. It was just them hitting a switch, and Tim was like, "hey, i'm bisexual now! Yea!". If i was part of that community, i would think i would like a better representation of that part of my character. That is just my opinion though.
Thank you, someone with some sense. I'm glad I found this video. They should just make new characters who are bi or gay instead of always changing old characters who weren't even hinted at being gay or bi.
Honestly I'm not surprised, this is another Tuesday of changing established characters in comics ect. I can't get upset or voice an opinion because wtf is there left to say? I'm jaded and honestly I've stopped giving a shit.
8:51 The people who say you're homophobic for not agreeing with it are the types who instead of wanting a character who happens to be bisexual where it's one thing about them but not the only thing and some of their storylines are about it but not all they just want a bisexual character even if they're a token character whose only personality and character trait is just "bisexual."
No hate to y'all but I don't think Tim being bi is as offensive or as random as you guys think. Because while Harley may have always been flirtatious with boys and girls a bi person doesn't have to show signs of being bi to be bi and some bi people even prefer girls to boys. Since Tim is a teen it makes sense that he'd be questioning his sexuality and he's be doing so in a few of the newer comics. Honestly after reading the 03 Teen Titans run Tim did "show signs" of liking boys anyways. He may have been extremely close to his female teammate Wonder Girl(Cassie Sandsmark) but he had the exact same relationship with Superboy(ConnorKent), and in the since of marketing that's where I think you're right. The only reason Tim didn't end up with Connor is because Dc was too afraid to have a main character be a gay male in a comic during the 2000's. But now since times are "More Progressive" Dc figured they could right a wrong so to speak and write the Tim and Superboy story they didn't have the balls to write back then because it would sell better now. Honestly I feel like it would be more offensive to make a new Robin just to make them bi, because it'd be extremely weird to have a character be so hyper fixated on their sexuality and make it their only trait. With Tim being bi he can be used as representation without his sexuality being the only thing making him an interesting character.
You mean Robin (2021) that started in April? *EDIT AFTER GOOGLING* Oh shit, a new one already! Yes, that was the comic that won the tournament, the "DC Round Robins project" thing. I'm pumped about it, even if from the synopsis, I couldn't help but think "didn't we do this a couple times recently already?" There was Ghost-Maker this year in the "first guy that no one knew about, even before Robin", and a couple years before that we had the pretty damn cool *All Star Batman: The First Ally* series. EDIT: in this part of the post, that I wrote before my bit of google-fu, I talk about the ongoing Robin run that started 3 months ago. I was hyped up to infinity, because on the cover (which had been revealed for a while), there's FUCKING *NITE-WING* aka Tad Ryerstad, whom I absolutely adored in the 1996 *Nightwing* run... Sadly, we're already 4 issues in, and he's still a background character so far. Plus, there are characters who have died very recently in related books, like Lady Vic, who got killed by _The Other_ in *Teen Titans: Rebirth* or fan-favorite & Deathstroke's buddy _Raptor_ who died at the hands of Blockbuster (whom Dick had teamed up with) after a couple of epic storylines involving him. I mean, I know you can bring characters back from the dead, but you have to wait a little bit. You can't just pull Raptor out of the grave with no explanation and throw him back into the mix like that. He's way too important as a character, I mean he was bestie with Dick's mom, if he can come back why couldn't she, with no explanation, just show up in main continuity and no one acts surprised? Damian saw Lady Vic die in front of him, and a year later, exact same continuity, he chats with her at a beach party before a tournament? /rant over, soz/
@@randallflagg3700 I’m just starting to get into comics but already have a decent collection. As a big nightwing and red robin fan (f#ck you drake) Thanks for filling me in on the continuity with that giant rant 😂
@@grbhighlights9401 indeed and honestly If they really wanted to do this they should've done organically not force it down are throats and changing the characters sexuality just like that because that doesn't work that way.
@@TevyaSmolka I know some people were annoyed about Alan Scott the Green lantern when they rebooted the universe being gay but even that makes more sense to me where you reboot an entire timeline and this character has gone through different experiences and also for all we know has a different family tree and different outlook on life and temperament and all of that. I think that just randomly writing hey by the way now they are going to date some guys it comes off as really random
@@kylebutler9281 true and honestly looking back on it especially with Alan Scott Green lantern your not entirely wrong about that especially during the new 52 Earth 2 series with alan scott in that universe, however with preflashpoint alan scott its kind of a double edge sword because Alan scott wasn't gay in the preflashpoint universe but on the other hand though they handled that subject matter way better in infinite frontier #0 because James tynion wrote that story and he said it to his own son obsidian and jade which that made me so happy so at least they kept his relationship with his wife and he still had his kids in this universe at least in my opinion, but for Tim drake robin no just no it just feels forced and wrong on so many levels that it ain't even funny but that's just my opinion.
@@TevyaSmolka like there is no point to it,it doesn’t fit any storyline and literally unless I have not read or seen it he has never had any moment or relationship with a guy,in the animated series he had a gf,in the 90s movies he was chasing after alfreds whatever she is
Can i also just say have you noticed most people are only cool with gay or bisexual characters in dc when they’re women? And it’s 1000% because straight comic readers can fetishize them.
"Its feel like a cash grab" every move from every business that you can think of is a cash grab. it doesn't matter how big or small the move is. Its to sell their protract in this case comics
At this point in the video (10:51 and I'm still gonna finish the video tho), I completely agree with you guys. I find it annoying that they just won't just make an original character. I honestly won't think of this as canon like what Marvel did with MJ and Peter being married. They retconned it and pretend it never happened. And for me, I'll pretend this never happened cuz it's just dumb and out of nowhere. This just screams to me they are just trying to appeal to a demographic who just doesn't care cuz if they did, they'll be buying Batwoman comics. Idk, my thoughts on the whole situation is just ehhhh.
@@kylebutler9281 I thought the video was pretty good. And yea, I just feel like this whole thing is DC trying to appease a demographic who just don't care. Idk, that's my take away on this whole situation
I don't mind lgbtq representation I mean I'm bisexual myself but what I do I mind is writers changing characters who are clearly straight e.g Tim drake and being like "ya know what Jeffrey this guy is bisexual now,I know that we have developed him to be straight"
Let an established LGBT character get turned straight and let's see what would happen. They probably don't want their characters being sex or gender washed but what about the characters we grew up with and got to know? What about them. Characters alot of people probably related to themselves? Who wanted Tim to "come out"?
yeah when people say they want more lgbtq+ representation, they don't mean replace straight characters with lgbtq+ out of nowhere, it always just feels so forced and pandering.
Can't they just stop making established character gay and just make new characters who happen to be whatever that we can respect. Nah too much work for these guys.
as a bisexual trans woman, this concerns me because Tim Drake cheated on his girlfriends....multiple times, and if you're not aware, bisexuals cheating is a problematic stereotype YAAAAAY, PROGRESSIVE!
to compare this to another coming out, Kitty Pryde from X-Men, that one actually made sense and had been hinted at since the 80s (hell she was planned to be with Rachel Summers but Chris Claremont wasn't allowed to do that) this however with Tim....did not feel planned or hinted at all prior to this story
one more thing: I think a far better pick for another gay/bi Batman character would've been Cassandra Cain, as they haven't really explored her sexuality much in the comics, and I've headcannoned her as such for a long time
Tim Drake being bi just don't make sense I have the entire run of Robin and never have he looked at boys. The boy Bernard was into older women so it just doesn't make sense. And too be honest the Harley Quinn and Poison Ivy is the same thing with Tim Drake it's like oh here's Fanfic and people wanting them together and DC was like it's 2011 let's do it. It's just not good representation at all, all this feels like oh we need LGBT and here's some characters who never were created or even shown the hints but because certain people see it that way and it's just gets annoying and now it doesnt sell and now it's just pointless
I agree. They did that with time displaced Iceman. Suddenly he's gay because.... Over 50 years he wasn't popular enough. Strange that these praisers of stuff like this never mention Billy Kaplan and Teddy Altman. They're married now and barely anyone talks about it cause Wiccan and Hulkling aren't huge names
The most I’ve seen is “go cry about it” as their arguments and “there’s not enough characters of representation”… Make new characters 🤦♂️ I don’t understand why it’s soo difficult and the one tht were made gets sideline and no one knows about
As a pan fan... Why does it fucking matter? I mean everyone can grow, but why change something already established to pander? Leave the straight ones straight. Unless it can be developed like Harley and Ivy, not just randomly out of character.
17:56 I mean this isn’t always true either. Yes, they are born like this, but people don’t always show signs. Sometimes they find out later in their life. I know someone who only realized it when they were 40.
This is 100% accurate, not everyone shows signs or even knows. For example I recently came out as Bi and none of my friends ever suspected it. Some even said I was the last person they expected from their friends to be Bi.
@@Residentidiotone I'm honestly wondering how would you guys feel if next week DC made a comic where Midnighter says he actually wasn't gay and that he likes women. You don't think that would come off sudden and just random? That's my issue with this writing.
@@visionary1138 I do think there should've been a build up to Tim coming out as Bi. Like they should've done more hints. Even though I do know some people who thought Tim had a thing for Kon at some point. But you're right, it is very sudden, and maybe they should've built up to it for Tim. But in reality sometimes it is sudden like that. It was for me when I came out.
@@visionary1138 Yeah, like of Batwoman suddenly said she prefers being exclusively with men the same supportive/progressive crowd would lose their shot
The problem with this argument is that you are only seeing it through a hetero lens - which makes sense, and obviously I don’t fault you for it lol But the experience of many LGBT people is that for many years - decades for some - they don’t realize their identity. This is especially true for bi folks, who are usually able to comfortably “pass” as heterosexual and don’t have to think much of it. That’s why so many people are celebrating this development - especially because this is exactly how the comic is portraying it. He hasn’t “come out” yet afaik. All he knows is that he’s feeling attraction towards a dude, which is new for him. And he’s gonna have to figure out his identity now. I know it seems like a random change, but it’s a very accurate portrayal of many people’s real experiences
I'm honestly starting to think his wife is closeted bi. They implied something about it on the second channel. I get why you assume it's only a hetero lense since he said he was but I wouldn't just assume they both for sure are.
I came to this video fully expecting just another homophobic attack, but it wasn’t. I really appreciate that you’re both so respectful about this. These are all very valid criticisms. And I do agree that Tim Drake coming out as Bi was very out of nowhere, and feels like just another way to pander to our community. I think a lot of the conflict comes from the extremes from both sides of the argument. Like, you can have an opinion on this without being homophobic. Thanks for not being a bigot about this and I’m so sorry about all the hate you’re both getting for having an opinion.
Everyone interprets things in a different way. So of course there are going to be people who think Tim is bi and others who think he isn’t. So I don’t think people should be seen as homophobic for not thinking Tim’s bi. Or thinking that people are reaching for thinking that he is.
There's plenty of people of the lgbt community that don't agree with Tim Drake being bisexual for the same reason why I don't agree with it. Because he's been established as a straight character since the beginning and it's just today's climate and the cancel culture and the PC culture. I'm not left or right by any means, but the correct way to show diversity is to create new characters and make them LGBT or women or of color. I would feel the same way if they changed Spawn from being Black to being a different minority race or White. They need to stop changing established characters. The whole argument about his connection with Superboy, it's called a bromance. There's a big difference between a bromance and liking men. A bromance is simply two straight guys that are comfortable with their sexuality and they're extremely close. If Robin has to be bi, why don't they make Damien bi? The one thing I got sick of with Tim Drake is how they kept switching his superhero identities around. I stopped following Tim Drake and comics after 2011. 2011 and going back is all I read. The only exception as far as post 2011 is Batman 89. I support equal rights for everybody, but Tim Drake to me is straight because I always stick to the original origins. Technically this version of Tim Drake is a reboot. So I guess when they say Tim Drake is bisexual, which Tim Drake are we talking about? Sorry for the long comment. Happy New Year.
As a bi man, I do like when I see representation, but as long as it makes sense. Alan Scott being gay, at first, was a parallel version, ok. Now, I don't like it that much. But with Tim I kinda see how it makes sense? He and Connor always had some weird stuff going on, and when Superboy died, he spiralled out of control. It wouldn't be crazy to say he had feelings for him. So, let's see where this goes before being mad at it
@@seand7042 Yeah, Im not saying "hey, this is because of that" or whatever, I'm just saying that with this now, it, for me, gives it another context and it makes sense too.
I totally agree, when I read that he was into a guy I thought it made perfect sense. And something worth mentioning is that Tim simply said "I don't know what it meant to me. Not yet. But I'd like to figure it out" which is a much more fluid statement than "I'm bi." So he's in the processing of figuring that part of himself out, which I would think a lotta LGBT readers (like me) could relate to.
Pretty much my opinion. Did they make this decision for optical and financial reason? Probably, but so is every editorial decision. Making a character Bi is a harmless decision, especially when looking at other awful editorial decisions made by dc or Marvel.
@@nuhiolaweej8754 exactly, I feel like that proves my point instead of disproving. Edit: bro I just checked your comments and you’re so mad you can’t tell I’m on your side, I don’t think this is a big deal and the more I think about it the more I realize this makes sense for Tim’s character.
in all honesty whether Tim is bisexual or not he's still my favorite Robin. As a matter of fact it also drives his character as the shy or awkward Robin so hell BI, GAY, STRAIGHT IDGAF Tim is the best Robin
I know the DC won't give a shit but I'm not considering this canon. Another things is that in the arkham games Tim Drake is heterosexual and is already an adult in love with Barbara.
I read a BBC article and it came off as if the writers didn't have any story ideas, making this a lazy idea. Which mad me upset and think of how they could have made Tim quit being robin to then open up a detective agency (or defense class) with Stephanie. He could come across something during one of his case unless and look into it as Red Robin(new outfit) or a new superhero identity.
They really need to leave the characters alone especially ones that have been around longer then most of the people working at DC rn and if they want to make more LGBTQ characters then just make their own ORIGINAL characters from how its going they won't stop till every classic male and female character is LGBTQ
I agree with you I don't see why Tim is just no sexual now maybe I'm misinterpreting it but to me they are making Tim the token lgtbq character just for the sake of it
@@rjketchum407 no the token LGBTQ character for DC is Harley Quinn since they turned her from the iconic loveable jester henchmen to a stripper.. they r just Turning Tim Drake into a LGBTQ character just because they can
@@Pugmaster97 I see where you're coming it's just that Tim is one of my favorite robins and I just don't like the way that they're handling his character to make a quick buck
@@rjketchum407 I agree w u too I'm more of a Dick Grayson fan especially the Chris O'Donnell version and it sucks how they don't care about the fans anymore all the people who were the ones behind the creativity and imagination in big companies like marvel,Disney,and DC have either died or moved on
Let’s be real here. Comics are not as popular as they used to be and no one really talks about them. DC knew making robin bi would be controversial and only did it so people would talk about it. Simple as that.
I hate how all people have to say is that he’s always been bi coded and apparently there were hints to him being gay even though he’s only dated girls like that’s stupid
While I fully understand and respect your opinion on this matter, and I completely understand (and agree with most of) your points I just wanted to chip in my thoughts as a bisexual adult who also had a similar 'lightbulb' moment to that depicted in the comic. Bisexuality is not 'half gay, half straight' as it's often depicted in popular media. A bisexual person can go most or even all of their life and only ever be in heterosexual relationships, they may also show a strong leaning towards a particular gender with only slight attraction to other genders. For me, I'm a bisexual woman, but when I was younger I went from being almost exclusively attracted to men to only pursuing relationships with women in my young adult years. My experience is of course personal to me, but other bisexual people go through much the same. I also have friends who have realised in their 30s that they actually are attracted to people of the same sex and are interested in pursuing relationships with same sex partners. These people identified as straight well into their adult life and are now coming out as bi or pan. It's not a 50:50 split, and it makes perfect sense to me for a person to realise late on that they are experiencing same sex attraction when previously they thought they were straight. Please always remember, bisexual does not mean gay. We're not part timers in the LGBTQIA+ scene, it's a separate identity and our experience with our sexuality is completely different to a strictly heterosexual or homosexual individual. Tim Drake hasn't come out as gay, if that was the case I'd agree that makes no sense. But it's not uncommon for a bisexual person to take a long ass time to come to terms with or even realise that they are bi. As I said, total respect for your thoughts on this. Everyone experiences sexuality differently, this is just my two pence on the matter.
That being said though, I very much appreciate the points both you and Jill made in this video. Queerbaiting and token bisexual characters are a major issue in tv, movies and comics. I think it's very likely that this relationship with Bernard (who doesn't even have a surname?) isn't likely to last, this got the current comic run into mainstream news to draw in the LGBTQIA+ crowd and sell copies and I think once the sales have been made the representation isn't likely to last. We see it all the goddamn time, especially with bisexuality (Styles Stilinski anyone?) and I'm very sick of seeing either avid fans pushing and fetishizing bisexual characters or the other side of avid fans violently disputing the idea a beloved character may be bi. All the while studios get away with teasing 'will they? won't they?' spoilers whilst never having to commit either way. Disliking this writing choice is absolutely not homophobic, and there are valid reasons not to like it (and even be a little bit sick of it).
I just have to say as someone who’s been a fan of Tim Drake for years, and as an openly gay man myself, I always saw his relationship with Conner Kent in Teen Titans as a very intimate one. Personally I don’t like Geoff Johns but that’s the one thing that really came off in his comic between them. So Tim coming out just further supports how I already viewed him. Especially as an avid shipper of TimKon.
Coming from somebody who is Bisexual: I agree with this. I haven’t even clicked play yet, but I already agree that they should stop turning iconic characters LGBTQ unless it makes since. Which it doesn’t here
I agree with your opinions. Im bi myself and i feel irritated by them taking and established character and changing them like this. If dc wanted a popular LGBTQ character for fans to love. Theres batwoman who is bi-ish. Mostly lesbian. Market her better. Theres the solution
I love how you say “maybe one day Carrie Kelly will be bisexual,” but if she is it will be based on the whim of a writer to fit their narrative, the same thing you’re saying is bad about Robin…
Poor character writing would not fly in my country. This writer would be lucky to not end up in a gulag! Anyways, I hope you have a great day! The motherland appreciates this video!
The thing about this is… it’s more of a personal complaint but I have looked up to Tim drake robin my entire life almost (I’m straight) so to find out that DC is this desperate for praise, that pisses me off and ruins a great character because they are trying to unnaturally change him😕
I do get your points and yes, the ideal scenario would be to create a new robin designed from the ground to be bisexual. However, take the Aaron Fischer case for an example: He's announced to be the first queer Captain America, being design from the ground as a gay man. No matter how hard his storyline goes, the amount of hate he receives by a large part of readers, just for being gay and wearing the mantle of captain america, will be surreal, it's gonna be hard for him to appeal to the ones who aren't queer. Another factor is that newer characters rarely become as relevant as the more well known ones, ore even relevant at all, specially if the new character is designed from the ground up to be queer and ocupy one famous mantle. Speaking as a gay man, what they did to Tim Drake wasn't the ideal scenario, but it is a complementary way to bring more representation as a whole and brings more attention to him, makes him reach a whole new demografic and so goes on (His fanbase and recurrent readers won't stop reading him, just a small few). For the better or the worse, Tim's officially bi, and I hope they develop this (small) part of his character nicely.
I think opposite honestly. I think Tim has always been very unsure about his identity, always has had a very close relationship with Connor, and I always kinda thought Tim was Bi. I think that from an identity standpoint, it makes perfect sense for Tim to be bi. I also didn't see it as coming out, just as Tim exploring what he wants to be, which is what the character has always been trying to do. If I don't make much sense, ask me anything, I'll try to explain myself.
Also, I do want to say that going out of your way, to insult someone, or harass someone because you disagree on something, is a dumbass thing to do. That's why I don't have twitter. Anyway, hope you guys haven't been going through too much
I think it would fit better for Damian Wayne to be bi because as he grows up he learns more about himself and would age him up to become a better charecter with his skills and his understanding of his sexuality.
Only thing I cant get behind is why they broke him and steph up. OFF PANEL. But hes always had bi tendencies, I mean look at his relationship with super boy( black shirt red symbol) hes always hinted at being more than just heterosexual. I agree that it being out of the blue is not a real good approach to it. Hes the smartest robin it would only make sense that he thinks deeper then what's between somones legs. Tim drake has always been a diverse character. Hes not a straight white guy. Hes a mixed teenage protege. I dont appreciate that it's only women who seem to be LGBTQ. Sure we have gay Male characters but why not a bi one?
it's not like a huuuge deal for me but one thing that kinda gets me thinking is how when there's a female LGBTQ+ character everything seems fine, but when it's a male character that like other males everyone seem to lose their minds. why is that? it doesn't necessarily annoy me but it do get me thinking
Completely agree with your points Jay Tim Drake Robin being bisexual makes absolutely no sense, and it’s completely pointless like why did they did they have to do this.
Why make already established character completely different? I don't have a problem with bi sexual super heroes but whats the point in changing an already established and famous character? Because no one cares whether ur character is bi or not? Its like making batman a gay stripper. It just doesn't make sense.
So my thoughts on this whole thing is pretty similar to what has been said in the video that if they want a gay Robin they should just give Bruce a new one after all, Dick is Nightwing, Jason is Red Hood, Tim is Red Robin and Damian is with he Titians in the comics and Bruce is left without a Robin and as for Carrie Kelly her sexuality has never been explored so she is blank slate for them. The only reason people tokenise these beloved heroes is because they are beloved and so they hijack a character and force in diversity even if it goes against the character (Its not just comics that do it either its really ALL entertainment). They do so because they believe that the Straight, White, Male heroes are the only legitimate heroes there is and they get that delusion from the fact they are popular and they completely disregard the actually diverse heroes who do have a fanbase, maybe not as much as some other heroes they attempt to tokenise and twist beyond recognition but that's due to them not getting as fleshed out in their source material. Like Batman is white and is popular and was made black for future state (even if its Not Bruce its still Batman being Tokenised) and instead of having an actually interesting black character who could have similarities to Bruce and become a member of the Bat-Family they decided to just tokenise and hijack the character and they wonder why that version isn't popular and blame it on Racism when its the writing and the fact that Bruce has had 80 years of character development and this rando black dude has had less than 1 and isn't even given a chance to be himself as he's forced into batman's role. Things like that and Flacon getting to be Captain America is why no one is buying comics, why fans are leaving franchises, why entertainment is dying not covid (well not as much as the real problem) but twitter clout chasing writers obsessed with tokenisation and if you've noticed at least on Marvel's end with the Disney + Shows the writers are all like that and have never like comics, the characters they work on or even the industry and none of them have had jobs in the industry either (hence the piss poor writing on those shows). These people don't bother and never will bother to try and make something new because that takes work, it takes time and it takes skill to build something from nothing and stick with it and help it grow into a new hero with their own fanbase that does represent they group they want. they just want to tear down and burn as much of the industry as they can cause they don't care, never did and never will about these heroes they are actively choosing to ruin. Also at about 20:20 Jill mentions a Asian Batman and well DC has already tried and fail with that "Idea" with Gay Asian Alfred, Chinese Bruce and Black Catwoman in Gotham High. If you were lucky enough to not know about that crap good on you for coming up with an idea you think is too stupid for DC to actually do but DC are dumber than they look. Honestly they should have never made Tim bi or any existing character any other race, gender or sexuality than their original version. It cheapens the character, turns fans away and cause a massive decline in all aspects. I'm fine with DC giving us a new Robin that is LGBTQ+ but turning someone into something there not isn't right no matter if its a fictional character or a real person. People were once happy to accept that people developed their sexuality as they get older some people may like people they grew up with and fall for them even if its of the same gender or more commonly of the opposite but if you go the tokenisation route your saying that people don't develop and evolve as they grow but rather being gay or straight or bi is a spur of the moment decision that people flip flop over like how over 32 years Tim has never had a gay thought but now wants to suck dick and I don't mean Nightwing. Its insulting and disgusting to do this to people in any regard as they are practically dangling their representation token over a communities heads and saying here you get the sloppy seconds or thirds that we're not going to develop any further than a cheap knock-off or a 1-off moment just for some twitter lunatics to praise us and do the harassment for us knowing full well they will never interact with the media don't this is probably the 1st time they've heard of the source material their twisting to fit their political narrative and diversity policies. Its disgusting to do this to people who do want to be represented and want to see themselves as some of their favourite heroes but even so not everyone has to be a self insert to see yourself as a character. Im sure there are hundreds if not thousands of LGBTQ+ fans of Tim when he was just straight but things like this may turn them off a hero they loved. These twitter obsessed writers will never understand that and even if they do they don't care enough to stop and sadly its been going on for around a decade now and it needs to stop. A fun thing that i remember from Spider-Man (Peter Parker not the Tokenised one Miles) is that he wears a full body costume not just to hid his identify from the world and those who would use this info to kill his loved ones but as a way to help those around him, the people he saves on a day to day basis to see that he is just a normal man who could be white, could be black, Asian, gay, straight, bi whatever because no one knows who is under the mask and who Peter really is and that's how people view heroes for the most part IRL. For example i love characters from all sorts of different races, genders and sexualities should I be limited to only liking characters I can look in a mirror and see myself literally or I can look into that heroes mask and imagine myself in it even if I'm not the right skin colour or gender. Because at the end of the day weather we are fictional or not we are all human and we can all relate to different things about different characters as I'm sure not every Batman fan is an absurdly rich, genius playboy. th-cam.com/video/1S7w4wCFDWs/w-d-xo.html
@@nuhiolaweej8754 yeah I was just telling someone that, just because Tim openly expresses his attraction to girls docent mean he's not also discovering that he also likes men.
This was not needed. They did this to pander and not to mention, Stephanie Brown aside, didn’t he marry Barbra Gordon. I honestly preferred Harley and Joker and their Bonnie and Clyde spree. Catwoman and Batman with their will they, won’t they love story is a main stay in comics. This ain’t got nothing to do with representation. It’s all about sales and agenda because if it wasn’t they’d create all original characters with their own storylines.
It feels like jk Rowling is influencing dc rn going back and making characters secretly progressive the entire time cos he was not bi when I was playing Lego Batman 2
I fully agree with the points you made here. I don't care that they wanted a bisexual robin, I just care that they took a character with 30 years of history and said, "hey this dude likes dudes now despite having never shown any signs of that for 30+ years." It would make more sense with a new robin. Even Damien would make a bit more sense since he's so young and going through puberty and really learning who he is as a person. Either a new character or a character that hasn't had any relationships yet would work best. This decision was just sloppy.
When I say it made no sense people said I was passing off “casual homophobia” and that’s just stupid. Tim is sorta the Bobby Drake of DC as where he’s had a lot of girlfriends and so he’s been just known to like girls. And their clearly just making him bi because that’s the hip thing especially in entertainment. Now it’s fine he’s bi, it’s fine, ok. It’s not something I agree with but sure. And I have no problem with bi or gay people btw. But for Tim it makes no sense
To the Twitter mob criticising characters who happen to be gay and bisexual for reasons unrelated to those 2 things somehow means hatred of gay and bi people. Most people know that just like everyone else minorities are flawed imperfect people and that they have more to them than their minority. But to Twitter minorities are perfect saints who can do no wrong and are above criticism.
@Joker Based on your logic of course: Every male character not dating a man and has not expressed that they are straight but has dated and looked only at woman for more than 2 decades or 100% of their comic run for years is Bi.
Tim : Bruce, I'm bisexual.
Bruce : Please Robin, the Joker just shot me.
Cringe
@@JoeMama-vw7so joe mama
Haha
@@JoeMama-vw7so mate he’s not you
now i want that exact Dialogue. XD
It annoys me. I’m bisexual myself and i feel as if people are just throwing bisexual characters around. Please actually consider your decision here and realise that you can’t just throw sexualities about. Some characters are clearly heterosexual but by trying to make them lgbt, it feels offensive. Being bisexual isn’t a ‘token’ as Jill said and it shouldn’t be seen as ‘quirky’ and the go to opinion for a sexuality in comics. Actually consider the character before jumping in just to make more money off these characters. I find it offensive and i know i’m not alone with it. Representation works fine when it’s done in the correct way, it works well when they actually represent it correctly, not throwing the sexuality about. Totally agree with almost everything i’ve heard so far Jay :))
If u speak up on it, Twitter will cancel u.
@@rambonambo3510 Unfortunately that’s true. I really don’t understand why you can’t have an opinion on it if you’re not lgbt, everyone’s opinions is valid.
@@lilsarmichan look at someone like yungrippa. I don't always agree with him but he said something about a black character being silly about a month ago and people were calling him racist when he's literally black. They were saying that he was like a Uncle Tom and all this crap. These people turn on their own groups real fast when they don't agree.
@@hughjass7777 twitter is toxic regardless, best to ignore their opinions to be honest.
JK Rowling would disagree.
so sorry about the hate you received for what you think dude. Regardless of your opinions on the situation, they're clearly not formed from homophobia or hatred, and you shouldn't be attacked the way you have.
Well i appreciate you saying that. Most people in this comments section have been very civil even when they disagree with me. The ones who can't do that or go straight to crazy labels, accusations or ad hominem attacks aren't worth my time and aren't really proving anything beyond the fact that they never learned how to have a discussion. I make videos knowing that comes with personal attacks and is the internet.
Jay watch the Comic Drake video about it...that convinced me cause there was a lot I didn't know about the character
@@cristinamanghi5147 maybe I’m ignorant but I still don’t see it. At least with the examples he showed. Of course I don’t know the context of the scenes as he didn’t explain it but I don’t see it as romantic interest. The my Robin and My Superboy comments can be seen as simply tongue and cheek with some sincerity. The hug is just platonic to me, you’d hug your brother for comfort wouldn’t you?
I’m straight (well possibly ace) so I’m of course not an authority on this, but I just don’t see Tim specifically being Bi.
@@rexventura4603 I also watched the comic Drake video. Everyone who agrees with this writing points to that video but Drake's entire proof is just that nobody ever said he's heterosexual. I hate to use innocent till proven guilty on something like being bisexual cuz it sounds mean but he almost went with a guilty until proven innocent approach where unless someone specifically states that they are heterosexual they can be interpreted in any way. I guess to me that seems like flimsy proof from drake.
They kinda are.
Pretty much my thoughts on the matter. I agree with Jill, I wish they would create new characters instead of changing existing ones.
Yea, i kinda feel the same thing about Disney characters turning a different race. It would be better if you leave the characters original race alone and make a new character that is black, Mexican or Asian
This is an example of the "We don't know what to do with a character so let's change their sexuality" routine.
Makes new characters to be representative...*
Yo that's pandering!
The thing is that they DID (Ghost-Maker, Bluebird). But people did not like LOVE them so they change existing characters.
@@abelchavez2463 to be fair, snowflake and safespace was definitely pandering
I love Tim Drake as robin, I don’t like seeing them use him as a tool to get more money
Same
He's my favorite robin but Idk why in the last like 5 Years they make everyone bi instead of just gay or straight or heck even asexual
@@abbybroe5739 exactly it feels forced
@@bubbastudios9797 you dont have to be gay or straight bi is a valid sexuality but I do sorta understand where your coming from.
@@bubbastudios9797 Tim has been hinted as bi since 2003.
Here is what u don’t do don’t change his character idc who they put him with but like I love The character and I loved Tim with Stephanie brown
Didn't Tim date WonderGirl too?
it was hardly a change tbh, he still likes women, his past relationships with women are still cannon
don't really see what the big deal here is
When’s the last time they actually dated
@@crackaneggonit4419 there isn’t one I’m just asking they don’t make his whole character literally abt being bi because he’s so much more
@@the-dramatic-nerd fair enough
I’m bisexual and never have dated a guy… I’ve been with my girlfriend for a year and this pisses me off… I’ve mostly been pissed off by the people asking for this. They want LGBT characters, they don’t want LGBT characters to die, they want the LGBTQ characters to have main rolls, they want LGBTQ characters to replace the current ones… I’m very appreciative that we got 1 well written LGBT character (batwoman) instead of a ton of poorly written characters that’s main trait is gay… thank you for the vid
They don't want LGBT characters to have flaws as well, they have to be prefect and right all the time.
Good video, big man. I did my English Speech in class on comic representation and your points aligned completely with what I said in class. When first researching for LGBTQ+ characters, I found an article on Tim Drake being bi and I was dumbfounded. Then reading the article, it seemed like his sexuality came out of nowhere and was only mentioned or built upon in that one Urban Legends comic. I'm so glad that you had the guts to speak out about this controversy, good job! Before anyone harasses me, I'm a closeted trans so you can't hurt me more than my brain does.
It's so sad people have to throw out a label to defend their opinion but that's not an insult to you just the world we live in.
Tim is my favorite Bat-family member and arguably one of my favorite DC characters. This just reminds me of what Marvel did with Iceman. It’s not bad that he is bi, but the way they went about it felt like they wanted to check off a box but didn’t want to take the chance and create a new character or push an already existing character that already is that.
(Also, 5:09 RIP to Tim’s solo Robin & Red Robin series)
@@DirtyDev even if they make a new one it would still get hate you know you can be bi and date women right?
@@DirtyDev what i mean is people are getting gay and bi confused its not the same whatsoever. And also every time they make a new character thats bi or gay it gets hate so whats the point
@@voiceoftheknight1939 If that were true, then whats the point of changing established characters then? Nothing is stopping them from making new characters.
@@grinko1222 even if it were a new character there would still be outrage so whats the point
@@voiceoftheknight1939 Then whats the point of changing an old one then?
10:08 Robin just fucking murdered someone (love when the games glitch like that and youre able to accidently "kill" ppl in the arkham games, so ironic🤣)
Lol I've just thrown people off story high buildings more than once😅😅
It literally proves the point if there are 3 to 5 people who dislike the video within 10 seconds of going up without listening to it. That shows how unopen to conversation people are and how they just assume they have the right side of history attitude with the topic.
That or there are just some people who’ve subbed just to dislike, which is rather stupid IMO because it’s still engagement
@@laundrybasketgamers it's the internet it's sadly filled with stupid but I agree.
People don't get that. They just plug their ears and say I can't listen and hit dislike then run away or unsubscribe. That's all those types of people know how to do. They were never taught how to present an argument or how to disagree without running away or starting a big scene.
@@belykwater5601 That sounds like a personal assumption without any data to back it up. But I wouldn't know since I'm not a part of any group that identifies itself as being pro or against some sexuality. I just figure people can do whatever they want if they're not hurting anyone. I'm also not someone who can't listen to an opinion either and form my own.
@@belykwater5601 where is the data to back up your fact though?
sucks because they’ve built up tim and steph being an endgame couple for like ever
just cuz he's bi doesn't mean he can't still have a romantic interest in Stephanie
@@gontagokaharu7638 That’s the thing, if they make him bi and be romantically involved with a woman then Twitter will lose their goddamn minds like they always do because it’s “queer-baiting”. If they make him bi and be romantically involved with a man then that throws away Tim and Steph’s relationship. It just gets completely screwed up in the end and honestly the best way to avoid this sort of thing is to just make new characters that are well written and interesting yet still have that detail being their sexuality, but mostly as a background thing that is just sort of there. Like the comic book Batwoman, she’s a perfect example of such. Changing straight characters to be LGBT could possibly destroy a fantastic and well developed relationship, which is why already existing characters shouldn’t be changed and they should make new characters that are LGBT(but not every new character has to be LGBT, it doesn’t need to be that much).
@@awesomusprime8611 what if he has a thing where he can't choose between Stephanie or a guy he's in love with, they could play the romantic trope to create stakes, and plot devices.
@@gontagokaharu7638 Now that could work however I think most people have come to like Tim and Steph together and I that’s the main reason that I’m upset because in that very situation you just gave there are two different outcomes.
1.) Tim stays with Steph and the morons on Twitter lose their shit and call it “queer-baiting”.
2.) Tim hooks up with a guy and his relationship with Steph is thrown away which will obviously upset the fans of the characters and their relationship.
I personally hate seeing incredible relationships just thrown away. Like Dick Grayson and Starfire, I absolutely love seeing them as a couple, they are just too damn adorable. So of course I hate it when they call it off whether it be permanently or not, and of course I get so happy when they would get back together. Even in new incarnations of the characters I want to see their adorable relationship. That’s one reason why I hate the Starfire from Titans, one reason among many. Her relationship with Dick is basically nonexistent and it genuinely pisses me off.
I’ve got no problem with LGBT characters and relationships in the comics. Kate Kane, Batwoman, is an awesome character in the comics, not that awful CW show though, she’s awesome in the comics. I just think that they should be introducing new characters that are LGBT and writing them as interesting characters instead of changing old characters to be LGBT to get brownie points from the SJWs on Twitter that do nothing but screech while smashing their keyboards because somebody said the word “slave” or some shit. Yeah seriously, Disney’s trying to change the name of Boba Fett’s ship from Star Wars because it’s called the Slave I, and apparently the word “slave” is offensive. If we let these people continue to be in control then the world will be totally fucked.
Let’s just make some good content from these franchises.
@@awesomusprime8611 lol, maybe it could be a polyameroues relationship to appease everyone.
12:01 Some people on Twitter are like the 13 Reasons Why fans who despite the show being about a girl who killed herself told people who didn't like it to kill themselves.
I really appreciate how y'all went further in-depht about DC's tokenism practices. It is really frustrating that DC pushes marginalized characters to the side and then change an established character to make a social statement.
I got into the Batwoman character relatively late. And it sucks that by the time I familiarized myself with the character she's no longer being featured anywhere. And the best they can do is "well Robin is bisexual now." Thanks, but no thanks, DC.
Honestly, I understand where you’re coming from. I will fully respect your opinion, hell, it might even be a fact. Though, I sort of like the idea even though it is a cash grab. I do NOT show hate to those who think otherwise. Tbh it’s just a page, it’s not something to hassle someone over. I hope you two have a wonderful day/night.
I agree, i think its time for a gay couple in the dc universe. we have plenty of lesbian ones, which is great, its about time for robin to date a guy lmao.
@@gontagokaharu7638 yall didn't herd the argument well. It not about a Robin being gay is changing a character with long history for gay baiting. They want gay character they can make it. DC has alot of talented writers. They can do it
I’m gay and I hate the decision to make not only tim drake but also jon kent bisexual. It is just beyond stupid
I'm going to be honest Jay, going into this video I didn't agree with you. But now, not even 10 minutes into the video, I completely agree with everything you are saying. They've taken this character and tokenized him for nothing other than sales. It's so utterly offensive and the worst part is that without looking into it and really thinking about it it doesn't seem offensive. It really is one of the worst form of "representation" in comics. They really are just using an entire almost 10% of the world population as a tool to sell their comics and its actually disgusting. I'm bisexual and seeing "representation" like this thrown around when really it's just tokenization is just flat out offensive in the most obvious way. Love your content, Jay and I always like how you're willing to voice your opinions and actually back them up regardless of how you know people will react. It's nice to see someone genuine for a change
He scared me for a min, not gonna lie. But the points he gives makes sense, which is why I like this channel so much. I don't have a problem with them making Tim bi, but I agree that the reason is pretty scummy. But what can one expect, its a company. They don't exactly care about us people, only whats in our wallets. Its not an excuse of course, but its sadly the reality of things.
I recommend for you to read bisexual characters like Constantine, Deadpool, Harley Quinn, and Valkerye. I am sure there is so much more. I always liked deadpool. I saw Constantine in the animated movies and he's a cool character. Also Harley Quinn is great. These characters they are openly bi, that is not the defining point of these characters.
Dude you should really look into Tim Drake it's been very obvious for a long time he's bi many of his interactions with Superboy go far past being just close friends this is not just tokenism
@@msbkaioken136 They say that because he grieve Conner Kent death. Men can show affection for each other without being sexually attracted. This perpetuates a bad stereotype.
@@Topg1 it's not just that my guy go watch comic Drake's video he made on this topic
I honestly don’t know because for many years now, writers have made jokes about Tim “coming out of the closet” this was by no means a new statement.
I think that's mainly because he was never written into a relationship seriously, meaning no author put time and effort into developing a relationship for him. He had Stephanie, but it wasn't set in stone they were be all end all. The joke probably arose comparing him to all the other Bat-family characters with established love interests of the opposite sex and saying "so when's he gonna come out of the closet already? (it being funny that he was the only one without a girlfriend when everyone else did)" I personally never felt like Tim had an established love interest other than writers pairing him with Spoiler or Supergirl, but making him bi just to pander to crowds and pairing him with a complete nobody feels fanfic-y.
@@fennerarmstrong3346 serious relationships? He was always a teenager
Thank you!
As if them hinting at it isn’t just as bad . That also came out of nowhere if you considered the character’s history
@@fahad.2924 I don’t really understand what you mean and don’t wanna label you as “homophobic dick bag” unless you explain more thoroughly please 😁
When your favorite Robin is getting attention for the worse reason
@@nuhiolaweej8754 no he really hasnt
He's not my favorite Robin (that goes to Jason) but he is definitely the one I respect the most. The guy had a better life than any Robin before or after him and threw it aside because Batman was getting too brutal. It's a shame to see him subjected to poor writing
@A successful failure so conner is bi now too?
@PsychoPomp bro, have you not had a best friend?
As a pansexual I don’t mind LGBT representation in comics. Hell my favorite Marvel character, Deadpool is pansexual. But I hate that writers will change race, sex, or sexuality just to make a group happy. It doesn’t make sense. It’s the same thing as if I changed a gay character to a straight one. Just make a new character or use characters that are already part of the group. It’s not that hard.
Couldn't agree more. I'm straight, but that doesn't mean I'm opposed to seeing different characters in comics. Deadpool has always been pansexual, so that makes complete sense. Constantine has always been bi, so it would've made NO sense if he were only into girls. But Tim has always been in straight relationships and had been portrayed as straight. If they wanted a bit character, make a new one. Take Aqualad from the Young Justice show; it was a natural revelation that he had a boyfriend (even tho he once crushed on a girl) made sense. So no, Tim Drake isn't bi; he's straight. DC, my advice to you is to create new characters.
Deadpool is also done extremely well in that regard so that's a good point. And tbh I'm sure there's complaints from someone but I don't think people really care about Deadpool's sexuality in terms of thinking it was forced or random or not well written etc. He's just been a pretty solid character and is something to strive for if DC wants that as well without looking like they're just trying to make headlines and not caring what they're talking about
The thing is Tim drake was literally implied as being Bi for years OR AT LEAST it was implied that him being indeed bi wouldn’t be a nonsense canon wise.
+ lets remind ourselves than ANY amount of sexual or romantic interaction with a million different women DOES NOT invalidate bisexuality in a man…
+ the whole argument of just making new lgbt characters makes few sense… in the real life people someone knew for decades could turn out to be lgbt and that happens ALL THE FUCKING time especially in our society so in comics there’s no way to justify that not happening…
Than again there are characters that are ABSOLUTELY straight canon wise and changing that would be lame but thats not the case with Tim drake there are MANY instances a possibility of bisexuality is presented
@@blahblahblah6898 Yeah, I understand what you mean. The best thing about comics are that when it comes to DC and Marvel, your Superman might be different than mine. Example: You might see the animated version as the real Superman and I might see the Christopher Reeve as the real one. Same thing goes with Tim Drake (whether he's straight or bi), or how the Joker was created (one bad day or fell in a vat of toxic waste), etc. This is the type of diversity that's good, where it isn't forced down our throats. It has to be natural.
@@blahblahblah6898 though there are counter-arguments for the hints like it could be more brotherly love
When will companies learn to just create new characters or just use the ones they already have existing in catalog. On top of that it’s always B list characters. They would never dare make batman black or gay yet he sells the most.
Exactly why they do it. They know it’ll grab headlines but a new character wouldn’t.
Like jay said, this is very similar to making Clark Kent African American, why not just use a pre-existing African American character like Val zod, hell why not just make a movie about steel
@@reecejohnston9817 it’s getting to the point where whoever’s in charge needs to be held accountable because it’s not like a small minority of people are saying these things either, DC just seems super out of touch
@@SpeezyOTB yep
@@reecejohnston9817 Nah, I'd rather see new heroes stand on their own instead of pallet swaps of established characters.
Reminds me of the Iceman change, fail to see why they just can't highlight existing LGBTQ characters instead of changing existing ones.
Facts
First they came for iceman
Ice man is gay not bi big difference
Glad this video got uploaded. Gave me a chance to say what I really wanted to say. I couldn't do it on IGN's channel last night. Not without my comment getting deleted or not posted at all
I struggle with that on that channel. Comments not posting or being deleted. I think it's even happened to non controversial non political comments I've made. I don't know if it's just me dealing with this or what.
Dude, I've had the same thing.
I think youtube has changed its comment section to add like shadowban/banned words
Bunker from the new 52 was one of my favorite characters added in the new 52. He was fun and had a cool power. He is gay. Something that really pissed me off is that dcs Instagram used him for a pride day post even though I haven’t seen him in anything since the new 52. Maybe he has been in rebirth but if so its prob very little. Bat woman was also included in this. And so it just felt like “hey look at us we have lgbtq characters” when half of them are barely used or I haven’t even heard of ever
He was in Redhood Outlaw for like a comic
Bunker was recently use in Titans Academy Future State.I don't remember if he was use somewhere before it.
Bunker is a GREAT character with a really cool personality and unique powers. There's so much potential to be had with him and he can be a titular poster gay character, but NOOOOO let's just ignore him and other lgbt's and change up some preestablished characters with more than 30 years of history just because we can
For me Tim Drake and Stephanie Brown are those characters that doesn't feel complete without each other like Green Arrow and Black Canary, Superman and Lois Lane, Luke Cage and Jessica Jones and Spider-Man and MJ.
I don't really mind that Tim is bisexual, but yeah, they should also be using characters like Batwoman
Oh, and yes, Twitter is full of crazy people
I feel like they try to do this to make it seem like they have a large lgbtq fans by rebranding popular characters as whatever they use
If Batman was changed into a gay black man, it would sell because its still batman. Yes some will like it more because its representing, but it will be popular more because its batman, than because its lgbtq
Oh yeah, Twitter is a hellhole
@@legolad7477 for real i hate this shit tim never hinted he was bisexual ever now he’s fucking dudes
@@jonathancarvajal6189 I see your point but he has hinted to have feelings for super boy. I agree with this whole video and they should just keep him striaght tbh
I wonder how people would feel if they changed Batwoman from LGBT to Straight.
One thing that makes me laugh is i have heard people say "he cant be bi he has dated a woman before" like bro...learn what bi means
But the line between Straight and Bi is very different, but because straight characters don't go around saying "Hey i'm straight" and on top of that have a Bromance moment with another guy they pass it off as hinting they Bi
The problem is that he obviously was thought as a straight character like so many more but people can shield behind bisexuality because he just had sex with a lot of woman and now the time where it's popular to make lgbt characters he states his sexuality
I hate when they change pre existing characters. Change characters this way isn’t gonna get you money it’s gonna lose you money. Yet somehow they don’t realize that.
Well it clearly did get publicity, and comics aren't that popular nowadays, and this did bring them more money.
As long as the coming out is better than Iceman's lol
I suppose it's less sudden. I mean it's still sudden but Icemans was just a gimmick they dont even care about him anymore.
I suffer from Schizophrenia and seeing games like Celeste and Senua's Sacrifice do so well at treating mental health made me really happy.
Representation does make media better when implemented well.
@@belykwater5601 I'm more implying representation makes media better for those who identify with the correlating belief.
Nonrepresentation does not hurt any form of media, however, if implemented respectfully and is woven into the character, it can improve an individual's perspective of such work.
@@belykwater5601 I agree completely; I want to watch good movies and shows; and play good games.
Representation isn't a priority.
Which making Tim Drake bi is not.
@@travisbishop782 according to whom exactly? And you do realize a shit ton of people stay in the closet or just don't realize or want to accept their nature until they are well into being an adult, right? So a writer going into that route with an already established character with a history of sus moments with Superboy isn't unrealistic and very much in line with how people usually tend to come out in real life.
@@GodsTears42 because this is just tokenism at it worst. It seem to me and quite a lot of people that the writer did this as a piss poor attempt to check off a box on a list. And from the excerpt that Jay read in the video, it was just horrible writing in general. They had no nuance, no build-up. It was just them hitting a switch, and Tim was like, "hey, i'm bisexual now! Yea!". If i was part of that community, i would think i would like a better representation of that part of my character.
That is just my opinion though.
Thank you, someone with some sense. I'm glad I found this video. They should just make new characters who are bi or gay instead of always changing old characters who weren't even hinted at being gay or bi.
Honestly I'm not surprised, this is another Tuesday of changing established characters in comics ect. I can't get upset or voice an opinion because wtf is there left to say? I'm jaded and honestly I've stopped giving a shit.
Same, I quit a while ago and I’m never coming back. I’ll read old runs I’ve never read before but other than that I’m done
I chooses the old Tim Drake who was intelligent and haves a relationship with Stephanie brown
🙏🏽🙏🏽🙏🏽🙏🏽🙏🏽👌🏽👌🏽👌🏽👌🏽👌🏽👌🏽👌🏽👌🏽
Ok
What makes me sick , is that there are people who are pushing to make Steph Brown a bisexual .
@@nuhiolaweej8754 There is , just type Stephanie Brown on twitter , it’s sad
@@nuhiolaweej8754 more like genitalscanon
8:51 The people who say you're homophobic for not agreeing with it are the types who instead of wanting a character who happens to be bisexual where it's one thing about them but not the only thing and some of their storylines are about it but not all they just want a bisexual character even if they're a token character whose only personality and character trait is just "bisexual."
yep, also they want them to have no flaws, Can Never lose, Can't die, always in the right, always being right.
No hate to y'all but I don't think Tim being bi is as offensive or as random as you guys think. Because while Harley may have always been flirtatious with boys and girls a bi person doesn't have to show signs of being bi to be bi and some bi people even prefer girls to boys. Since Tim is a teen it makes sense that he'd be questioning his sexuality and he's be doing so in a few of the newer comics. Honestly after reading the 03 Teen Titans run Tim did "show signs" of liking boys anyways. He may have been extremely close to his female teammate Wonder Girl(Cassie Sandsmark) but he had the exact same relationship with Superboy(ConnorKent), and in the since of marketing that's where I think you're right. The only reason Tim didn't end up with Connor is because Dc was too afraid to have a main character be a gay male in a comic during the 2000's. But now since times are "More Progressive" Dc figured they could right a wrong so to speak and write the Tim and Superboy story they didn't have the balls to write back then because it would sell better now. Honestly I feel like it would be more offensive to make a new Robin just to make them bi, because it'd be extremely weird to have a character be so hyper fixated on their sexuality and make it their only trait. With Tim being bi he can be used as representation without his sexuality being the only thing making him an interesting character.
I completely agree, im writing my own batman comic series, and in it I wrote Tim with a boyfriend, sue me.
I totally agree with you.
On a side note,
WHOS HYPED FOR ROBINS comics
You mean Robin (2021) that started in April?
*EDIT AFTER GOOGLING*
Oh shit, a new one already! Yes, that was the comic that won the tournament, the "DC Round Robins project" thing.
I'm pumped about it, even if from the synopsis, I couldn't help but think "didn't we do this a couple times recently already?"
There was Ghost-Maker this year in the "first guy that no one knew about, even before Robin", and a couple years before that we had the pretty damn cool *All Star Batman: The First Ally* series.
EDIT: in this part of the post, that I wrote before my bit of google-fu, I talk about the ongoing Robin run that started 3 months ago.
I was hyped up to infinity, because on the cover (which had been revealed for a while), there's FUCKING *NITE-WING* aka Tad Ryerstad, whom I absolutely adored in the 1996 *Nightwing* run...
Sadly, we're already 4 issues in, and he's still a background character so far.
Plus, there are characters who have died very recently in related books, like Lady Vic, who got killed by _The Other_ in *Teen Titans: Rebirth* or fan-favorite & Deathstroke's buddy _Raptor_ who died at the hands of Blockbuster (whom Dick had teamed up with) after a couple of epic storylines involving him.
I mean, I know you can bring characters back from the dead, but you have to wait a little bit. You can't just pull Raptor out of the grave with no explanation and throw him back into the mix like that.
He's way too important as a character, I mean he was bestie with Dick's mom, if he can come back why couldn't she, with no explanation, just show up in main continuity and no one acts surprised?
Damian saw Lady Vic die in front of him, and a year later, exact same continuity, he chats with her at a beach party before a tournament?
/rant over, soz/
@@randallflagg3700 I’m just starting to get into comics but already have a decent collection. As a big nightwing and red robin fan (f#ck you drake)
Thanks for filling me in on the continuity with that giant rant 😂
@@randallflagg3700 I can't wait for Steph to finally make an appearance as an official former Robin!! Since a lot of ppl think she wasn't lol..
i bet u dc will forget Tim drake is bi and only use him during pride month
I still maintained this feels forced on so many levels.
Exactly
@@grbhighlights9401 indeed and honestly If they really wanted to do this they should've done organically not force it down are throats and changing the characters sexuality just like that because that doesn't work that way.
@@TevyaSmolka I know some people were annoyed about Alan Scott the Green lantern when they rebooted the universe being gay but even that makes more sense to me where you reboot an entire timeline and this character has gone through different experiences and also for all we know has a different family tree and different outlook on life and temperament and all of that. I think that just randomly writing hey by the way now they are going to date some guys it comes off as really random
@@kylebutler9281 true and honestly looking back on it especially with Alan Scott Green lantern your not entirely wrong about that especially during the new 52 Earth 2 series with alan scott in that universe, however with preflashpoint alan scott its kind of a double edge sword because Alan scott wasn't gay in the preflashpoint universe but on the other hand though they handled that subject matter way better in infinite frontier #0 because James tynion wrote that story and he said it to his own son obsidian and jade which that made me so happy so at least they kept his relationship with his wife and he still had his kids in this universe at least in my opinion, but for Tim drake robin no just no it just feels forced and wrong on so many levels that it ain't even funny but that's just my opinion.
@@TevyaSmolka like there is no point to it,it doesn’t fit any storyline and literally unless I have not read or seen it he has never had any moment or relationship with a guy,in the animated series he had a gf,in the 90s movies he was chasing after alfreds whatever she is
Hey DC, can we please get a comic where Tim and Steph actually stay endgame? Thank you.
I am so sure that is the plan
No, Please, no.
Can i also just say have you noticed most people are only cool with gay or bisexual characters in dc when they’re women? And it’s 1000% because straight comic readers can fetishize them.
Me 11 minutes in…
*Jay speaking facts*
Kimmy listening intensely: Mhmm
I’m calling her Kimmy… idk why but she’s Kimmy to me
"Its feel like a cash grab"
every move from every business that you can think of is a cash grab. it doesn't matter how big or small the move is. Its to sell their protract in this case comics
At this point in the video (10:51 and I'm still gonna finish the video tho), I completely agree with you guys. I find it annoying that they just won't just make an original character. I honestly won't think of this as canon like what Marvel did with MJ and Peter being married. They retconned it and pretend it never happened. And for me, I'll pretend this never happened cuz it's just dumb and out of nowhere. This just screams to me they are just trying to appeal to a demographic who just doesn't care cuz if they did, they'll be buying Batwoman comics. Idk, my thoughts on the whole situation is just ehhhh.
I know you don't know me but I'd be interested to hear an update on what you thought once you got to the end
@@kylebutler9281 I just had to resume it, I had to go do something. I'll reply back when I'm done with the video.
@@kylebutler9281 I thought the video was pretty good. And yea, I just feel like this whole thing is DC trying to appease a demographic who just don't care. Idk, that's my take away on this whole situation
I don't mind lgbtq representation I mean I'm bisexual myself but what I do I mind is writers changing characters who are clearly straight e.g Tim drake and being like "ya know what Jeffrey this guy is bisexual now,I know that we have developed him to be straight"
Finally someone said it.
Tim Drake is my favorite Robin man! i can't belive comic writers are changing every single character!
Your so dramatic
@Cledas Dinkle Berray Would've been cool if they created a new character
Let an established LGBT character get turned straight and let's see what would happen. They probably don't want their characters being sex or gender washed but what about the characters we grew up with and got to know? What about them. Characters alot of people probably related to themselves?
Who wanted Tim to "come out"?
yeah when people say they want more lgbtq+ representation, they don't mean replace straight characters with lgbtq+ out of nowhere, it always just feels so forced and pandering.
Oh they would cancel that shit and outrage would happen
Boi i may sound vindictive here but i'd totally do that to piss them off. XD
@@DgardsGaming At this point, so would I. You're officially awesome, internet stranger.
Can't they just stop making established character gay and just make new characters who happen to be whatever that we can respect. Nah too much work for these guys.
as a bisexual trans woman, this concerns me because Tim Drake cheated on his girlfriends....multiple times, and if you're not aware, bisexuals cheating is a problematic stereotype
YAAAAAY, PROGRESSIVE!
to compare this to another coming out, Kitty Pryde from X-Men, that one actually made sense and had been hinted at since the 80s (hell she was planned to be with Rachel Summers but Chris Claremont wasn't allowed to do that)
this however with Tim....did not feel planned or hinted at all prior to this story
one more thing: I think a far better pick for another gay/bi Batman character would've been Cassandra Cain, as they haven't really explored her sexuality much in the comics, and I've headcannoned her as such for a long time
Tim Drake being bi just don't make sense I have the entire run of Robin and never have he looked at boys. The boy Bernard was into older women so it just doesn't make sense. And too be honest the Harley Quinn and Poison Ivy is the same thing with Tim Drake it's like oh here's Fanfic and people wanting them together and DC was like it's 2011 let's do it. It's just not good representation at all, all this feels like oh we need LGBT and here's some characters who never were created or even shown the hints but because certain people see it that way and it's just gets annoying and now it doesnt sell and now it's just pointless
I agree. They did that with time displaced Iceman. Suddenly he's gay because.... Over 50 years he wasn't popular enough. Strange that these praisers of stuff like this never mention Billy Kaplan and Teddy Altman. They're married now and barely anyone talks about it cause Wiccan and Hulkling aren't huge names
They need more representation cuz I love them too and always have when I first saw wiccan and hulkling
The most I’ve seen is “go cry about it” as their arguments and “there’s not enough characters of representation”… Make new characters 🤦♂️ I don’t understand why it’s soo difficult and the one tht were made gets sideline and no one knows about
As a pan fan... Why does it fucking matter? I mean everyone can grow, but why change something already established to pander? Leave the straight ones straight. Unless it can be developed like Harley and Ivy, not just randomly out of character.
17:56 I mean this isn’t always true either. Yes, they are born like this, but people don’t always show signs. Sometimes they find out later in their life. I know someone who only realized it when they were 40.
This is 100% accurate, not everyone shows signs or even knows. For example I recently came out as Bi and none of my friends ever suspected it. Some even said I was the last person they expected from their friends to be Bi.
@@Residentidiotone I'm honestly wondering how would you guys feel if next week DC made a comic where Midnighter says he actually wasn't gay and that he likes women. You don't think that would come off sudden and just random? That's my issue with this writing.
@@visionary1138 I do think there should've been a build up to Tim coming out as Bi. Like they should've done more hints. Even though I do know some people who thought Tim had a thing for Kon at some point. But you're right, it is very sudden, and maybe they should've built up to it for Tim. But in reality sometimes it is sudden like that. It was for me when I came out.
@@visionary1138 Yeah, like of Batwoman suddenly said she prefers being exclusively with men the same supportive/progressive crowd would lose their shot
The problem with this argument is that you are only seeing it through a hetero lens - which makes sense, and obviously I don’t fault you for it lol
But the experience of many LGBT people is that for many years - decades for some - they don’t realize their identity. This is especially true for bi folks, who are usually able to comfortably “pass” as heterosexual and don’t have to think much of it.
That’s why so many people are celebrating this development - especially because this is exactly how the comic is portraying it. He hasn’t “come out” yet afaik. All he knows is that he’s feeling attraction towards a dude, which is new for him. And he’s gonna have to figure out his identity now.
I know it seems like a random change, but it’s a very accurate portrayal of many people’s real experiences
I'm honestly starting to think his wife is closeted bi. They implied something about it on the second channel. I get why you assume it's only a hetero lense since he said he was but I wouldn't just assume they both for sure are.
I agree, as bi I can relate to thinking im straight until I meet a certain guy
Agreed.
I came to this video fully expecting just another homophobic attack, but it wasn’t. I really appreciate that you’re both so respectful about this.
These are all very valid criticisms. And I do agree that Tim Drake coming out as Bi was very out of nowhere, and feels like just another way to pander to our community.
I think a lot of the conflict comes from the extremes from both sides of the argument. Like, you can have an opinion on this without being homophobic.
Thanks for not being a bigot about this and I’m so sorry about all the hate you’re both getting for having an opinion.
Everyone interprets things in a different way. So of course there are going to be people who think Tim is bi and others who think he isn’t. So I don’t think people should be seen as homophobic for not thinking Tim’s bi. Or thinking that people are reaching for thinking that he is.
I can’t speak too much about this since I haven’t read any Tim drake stuff. But I wouldn’t be surprised if this was forced.
There's plenty of people of the lgbt community that don't agree with Tim Drake being bisexual for the same reason why I don't agree with it. Because he's been established as a straight character since the beginning and it's just today's climate and the cancel culture and the PC culture. I'm not left or right by any means, but the correct way to show diversity is to create new characters and make them LGBT or women or of color. I would feel the same way if they changed Spawn from being Black to being a different minority race or White. They need to stop changing established characters. The whole argument about his connection with Superboy, it's called a bromance. There's a big difference between a bromance and liking men. A bromance is simply two straight guys that are comfortable with their sexuality and they're extremely close. If Robin has to be bi, why don't they make Damien bi? The one thing I got sick of with Tim Drake is how they kept switching his superhero identities around. I stopped following Tim Drake and comics after 2011. 2011 and going back is all I read. The only exception as far as post 2011 is Batman 89. I support equal rights for everybody, but Tim Drake to me is straight because I always stick to the original origins. Technically this version of Tim Drake is a reboot. So I guess when they say Tim Drake is bisexual, which Tim Drake are we talking about? Sorry for the long comment. Happy New Year.
As a bi man, I do like when I see representation, but as long as it makes sense. Alan Scott being gay, at first, was a parallel version, ok. Now, I don't like it that much. But with Tim I kinda see how it makes sense? He and Connor always had some weird stuff going on, and when Superboy died, he spiralled out of control. It wouldn't be crazy to say he had feelings for him. So, let's see where this goes before being mad at it
agreed
Fare
OK I guess I can see that although I can also see that being you watching one of your best friends and Teammates die
@@seand7042 Yeah, Im not saying "hey, this is because of that" or whatever, I'm just saying that with this now, it, for me, gives it another context and it makes sense too.
I totally agree, when I read that he was into a guy I thought it made perfect sense. And something worth mentioning is that Tim simply said "I don't know what it meant to me. Not yet. But I'd like to figure it out" which is a much more fluid statement than "I'm bi." So he's in the processing of figuring that part of himself out, which I would think a lotta LGBT readers (like me) could relate to.
I don't care. He's bi? Cool. Tim Drake is still the best Robin and will not be beat.
Pretty much my opinion. Did they make this decision for optical and financial reason? Probably, but so is every editorial decision. Making a character Bi is a harmless decision, especially when looking at other awful editorial decisions made by dc or Marvel.
@@nuhiolaweej8754 exactly, I feel like that proves my point instead of disproving.
Edit: bro I just checked your comments and you’re so mad you can’t tell I’m on your side, I don’t think this is a big deal and the more I think about it the more I realize this makes sense for Tim’s character.
I hate Twitter
You and me both
in all honesty whether Tim is bisexual or not he's still my favorite Robin. As a matter of fact it also drives his character as the shy or awkward Robin so hell BI, GAY, STRAIGHT IDGAF Tim is the best Robin
I’m gay and I 100 percent agree on what u guys are saying. It feels like it was forced and rushed to make him bi out of nowhere
I give it two months it's recon especially after the sales tank
Facts
THIS VIDEO IS SO GOODD ITS CRAZY
I know the DC won't give a shit but I'm not considering this canon. Another things is that in the arkham games Tim Drake is heterosexual and is already an adult in love with Barbara.
Exactly
But bisexual means you can be in love with either a man or a woman lol
ok, Arkham games art canon, but ok
But that really isnt your decision though
@@gummyneighborino7217 yeah, and I agree with dc's decision, no hate to anybody who disagrees
I read a BBC article and it came off as if the writers didn't have any story ideas, making this a lazy idea. Which mad me upset and think of how they could have made Tim quit being robin to then open up a detective agency (or defense class) with Stephanie. He could come across something during one of his case unless and look into it as Red Robin(new outfit) or a new superhero identity.
Your idea is a lot better the what DC did.
I'm bisexual and I literally don't like this because it feels forced.
They really need to leave the characters alone especially ones that have been around longer then most of the people working at DC rn and if they want to make more LGBTQ characters then just make their own ORIGINAL characters from how its going they won't stop till every classic male and female character is LGBTQ
I agree with you I don't see why Tim is just no sexual now maybe I'm misinterpreting it but to me they are making Tim the token lgtbq character just for the sake of it
@@rjketchum407 no the token LGBTQ character for DC is Harley Quinn since they turned her from the iconic loveable jester henchmen to a stripper.. they r just Turning Tim Drake into a LGBTQ character just because they can
@@Pugmaster97 I see where you're coming it's just that Tim is one of my favorite robins and I just don't like the way that they're handling his character to make a quick buck
@@rjketchum407 I agree w u too I'm more of a Dick Grayson fan especially the Chris O'Donnell version and it sucks how they don't care about the fans anymore all the people who were the ones behind the creativity and imagination in big companies like marvel,Disney,and DC have either died or moved on
Let’s be real here. Comics are not as popular as they used to be and no one really talks about them. DC knew making robin bi would be controversial and only did it so people would talk about it. Simple as that.
Let’s be real, if any Robin should be bisexual it should be Jason Todd. That guy screams bisexual
I hate how all people have to say is that he’s always been bi coded and apparently there were hints to him being gay even though he’s only dated girls like that’s stupid
Another needless change to appease the woke crowd. Unreal
While I fully understand and respect your opinion on this matter, and I completely understand (and agree with most of) your points I just wanted to chip in my thoughts as a bisexual adult who also had a similar 'lightbulb' moment to that depicted in the comic.
Bisexuality is not 'half gay, half straight' as it's often depicted in popular media. A bisexual person can go most or even all of their life and only ever be in heterosexual relationships, they may also show a strong leaning towards a particular gender with only slight attraction to other genders.
For me, I'm a bisexual woman, but when I was younger I went from being almost exclusively attracted to men to only pursuing relationships with women in my young adult years. My experience is of course personal to me, but other bisexual people go through much the same.
I also have friends who have realised in their 30s that they actually are attracted to people of the same sex and are interested in pursuing relationships with same sex partners. These people identified as straight well into their adult life and are now coming out as bi or pan.
It's not a 50:50 split, and it makes perfect sense to me for a person to realise late on that they are experiencing same sex attraction when previously they thought they were straight.
Please always remember, bisexual does not mean gay. We're not part timers in the LGBTQIA+ scene, it's a separate identity and our experience with our sexuality is completely different to a strictly heterosexual or homosexual individual. Tim Drake hasn't come out as gay, if that was the case I'd agree that makes no sense. But it's not uncommon for a bisexual person to take a long ass time to come to terms with or even realise that they are bi.
As I said, total respect for your thoughts on this. Everyone experiences sexuality differently, this is just my two pence on the matter.
That being said though, I very much appreciate the points both you and Jill made in this video. Queerbaiting and token bisexual characters are a major issue in tv, movies and comics. I think it's very likely that this relationship with Bernard (who doesn't even have a surname?) isn't likely to last, this got the current comic run into mainstream news to draw in the LGBTQIA+ crowd and sell copies and I think once the sales have been made the representation isn't likely to last.
We see it all the goddamn time, especially with bisexuality (Styles Stilinski anyone?) and I'm very sick of seeing either avid fans pushing and fetishizing bisexual characters or the other side of avid fans violently disputing the idea a beloved character may be bi. All the while studios get away with teasing 'will they? won't they?' spoilers whilst never having to commit either way.
Disliking this writing choice is absolutely not homophobic, and there are valid reasons not to like it (and even be a little bit sick of it).
I just have to say as someone who’s been a fan of Tim Drake for years, and as an openly gay man myself, I always saw his relationship with Conner Kent in Teen Titans as a very intimate one. Personally I don’t like Geoff Johns but that’s the one thing that really came off in his comic between them. So Tim coming out just further supports how I already viewed him. Especially as an avid shipper of TimKon.
Ur part of the problem this is pandering not representing ur community at all
@@markelscott100 how would you describe the difference between those 2 scenarios?
Coming from somebody who is Bisexual: I agree with this. I haven’t even clicked play yet, but I already agree that they should stop turning iconic characters LGBTQ unless it makes since. Which it doesn’t here
The problem with this is them retconning stephanie brown
What do you mean?
They retconned Stephanie brown?
I agree with your opinions. Im bi myself and i feel irritated by them taking and established character and changing them like this. If dc wanted a popular LGBTQ character for fans to love. Theres batwoman who is bi-ish. Mostly lesbian. Market her better. Theres the solution
@Clown Prince of Crime Hudson exactly. I personally love batwoman. Shes a great character and they could do so much with her
I love how you say “maybe one day Carrie Kelly will be bisexual,” but if she is it will be based on the whim of a writer to fit their narrative, the same thing you’re saying is bad about Robin…
Poor character writing would not fly in my country. This writer would be lucky to not end up in a gulag! Anyways, I hope you have a great day! The motherland appreciates this video!
Ngl I would never acknowledge Tim as bi because he has always been heterosexual and there is absolutely no need for them to change that
Its sad to see so many people speaking over one of the top comments from Mrs Channie Chan who is someone who is bi and doesn't like this.
The thing about this is… it’s more of a personal complaint but I have looked up to Tim drake robin my entire life almost (I’m straight) so to find out that DC is this desperate for praise, that pisses me off and ruins a great character because they are trying to unnaturally change him😕
I do get your points and yes, the ideal scenario would be to create a new robin designed from the ground to be bisexual. However, take the Aaron Fischer case for an example: He's announced to be the first queer Captain America, being design from the ground as a gay man. No matter how hard his storyline goes, the amount of hate he receives by a large part of readers, just for being gay and wearing the mantle of captain america, will be surreal, it's gonna be hard for him to appeal to the ones who aren't queer. Another factor is that newer characters rarely become as relevant as the more well known ones, ore even relevant at all, specially if the new character is designed from the ground up to be queer and ocupy one famous mantle. Speaking as a gay man, what they did to Tim Drake wasn't the ideal scenario, but it is a complementary way to bring more representation as a whole and brings more attention to him, makes him reach a whole new demografic and so goes on (His fanbase and recurrent readers won't stop reading him, just a small few). For the better or the worse, Tim's officially bi, and I hope they develop this (small) part of his character nicely.
I think opposite honestly. I think Tim has always been very unsure about his identity, always has had a very close relationship with Connor, and I always kinda thought Tim was Bi. I think that from an identity standpoint, it makes perfect sense for Tim to be bi. I also didn't see it as coming out, just as Tim exploring what he wants to be, which is what the character has always been trying to do.
If I don't make much sense, ask me anything, I'll try to explain myself.
Also, I do want to say that going out of your way, to insult someone, or harass someone because you disagree on something, is a dumbass thing to do. That's why I don't have twitter. Anyway, hope you guys haven't been going through too much
I think it would fit better for Damian Wayne to be bi because as he grows up he learns more about himself and would age him up to become a better charecter with his skills and his understanding of his sexuality.
Only thing I cant get behind is why they broke him and steph up. OFF PANEL. But hes always had bi tendencies, I mean look at his relationship with super boy( black shirt red symbol) hes always hinted at being more than just heterosexual. I agree that it being out of the blue is not a real good approach to it. Hes the smartest robin it would only make sense that he thinks deeper then what's between somones legs. Tim drake has always been a diverse character. Hes not a straight white guy. Hes a mixed teenage protege. I dont appreciate that it's only women who seem to be LGBTQ. Sure we have gay Male characters but why not a bi one?
He never was bi b4 thats the whole issue man was straight for the longest time than out of the blue oh hes bi
it's not like a huuuge deal for me but one thing that kinda gets me thinking is how when there's a female LGBTQ+ character everything seems fine, but when it's a male character that like other males everyone seem to lose their minds. why is that? it doesn't necessarily annoy me but it do get me thinking
@@eagle162 Jay even mentioned Midnighter but everyone ignores him that he said that's a good character.
Sorry you guys got bullied like that, I know it doesn't bother you but it's just so uncalled for. ❤️ You guys
Completely agree with your points Jay Tim Drake Robin being bisexual makes absolutely no sense, and it’s completely pointless like why did they did they have to do this.
You didn’t even finish the vid…
@@bigjawcat9605 how could you know that
@@jermo1470 he posted the comment after 5 minutes of the video being uploaded. The vid is 38 minutes long
@@bigjawcat9605 oh that makes sense
Why make already established character completely different? I don't have a problem with bi sexual super heroes but whats the point in changing an already established and famous character? Because no one cares whether ur character is bi or not? Its like making batman a gay stripper. It just doesn't make sense.
So my thoughts on this whole thing is pretty similar to what has been said in the video that if they want a gay Robin they should just give Bruce a new one after all, Dick is Nightwing, Jason is Red Hood, Tim is Red Robin and Damian is with he Titians in the comics and Bruce is left without a Robin and as for Carrie Kelly her sexuality has never been explored so she is blank slate for them.
The only reason people tokenise these beloved heroes is because they are beloved and so they hijack a character and force in diversity even if it goes against the character (Its not just comics that do it either its really ALL entertainment). They do so because they believe that the Straight, White, Male heroes are the only legitimate heroes there is and they get that delusion from the fact they are popular and they completely disregard the actually diverse heroes who do have a fanbase, maybe not as much as some other heroes they attempt to tokenise and twist beyond recognition but that's due to them not getting as fleshed out in their source material. Like Batman is white and is popular and was made black for future state (even if its Not Bruce its still Batman being Tokenised) and instead of having an actually interesting black character who could have similarities to Bruce and become a member of the Bat-Family they decided to just tokenise and hijack the character and they wonder why that version isn't popular and blame it on Racism when its the writing and the fact that Bruce has had 80 years of character development and this rando black dude has had less than 1 and isn't even given a chance to be himself as he's forced into batman's role. Things like that and Flacon getting to be Captain America is why no one is buying comics, why fans are leaving franchises, why entertainment is dying not covid (well not as much as the real problem) but twitter clout chasing writers obsessed with tokenisation and if you've noticed at least on Marvel's end with the Disney + Shows the writers are all like that and have never like comics, the characters they work on or even the industry and none of them have had jobs in the industry either (hence the piss poor writing on those shows).
These people don't bother and never will bother to try and make something new because that takes work, it takes time and it takes skill to build something from nothing and stick with it and help it grow into a new hero with their own fanbase that does represent they group they want. they just want to tear down and burn as much of the industry as they can cause they don't care, never did and never will about these heroes they are actively choosing to ruin.
Also at about 20:20 Jill mentions a Asian Batman and well DC has already tried and fail with that "Idea" with Gay Asian Alfred, Chinese Bruce and Black Catwoman in Gotham High. If you were lucky enough to not know about that crap good on you for coming up with an idea you think is too stupid for DC to actually do but DC are dumber than they look.
Honestly they should have never made Tim bi or any existing character any other race, gender or sexuality than their original version. It cheapens the character, turns fans away and cause a massive decline in all aspects. I'm fine with DC giving us a new Robin that is LGBTQ+ but turning someone into something there not isn't right no matter if its a fictional character or a real person. People were once happy to accept that people developed their sexuality as they get older some people may like people they grew up with and fall for them even if its of the same gender or more commonly of the opposite but if you go the tokenisation route your saying that people don't develop and evolve as they grow but rather being gay or straight or bi is a spur of the moment decision that people flip flop over like how over 32 years Tim has never had a gay thought but now wants to suck dick and I don't mean Nightwing. Its insulting and disgusting to do this to people in any regard as they are practically dangling their representation token over a communities heads and saying here you get the sloppy seconds or thirds that we're not going to develop any further than a cheap knock-off or a 1-off moment just for some twitter lunatics to praise us and do the harassment for us knowing full well they will never interact with the media don't this is probably the 1st time they've heard of the source material their twisting to fit their political narrative and diversity policies.
Its disgusting to do this to people who do want to be represented and want to see themselves as some of their favourite heroes but even so not everyone has to be a self insert to see yourself as a character. Im sure there are hundreds if not thousands of LGBTQ+ fans of Tim when he was just straight but things like this may turn them off a hero they loved. These twitter obsessed writers will never understand that and even if they do they don't care enough to stop and sadly its been going on for around a decade now and it needs to stop.
A fun thing that i remember from Spider-Man (Peter Parker not the Tokenised one Miles) is that he wears a full body costume not just to hid his identify from the world and those who would use this info to kill his loved ones but as a way to help those around him, the people he saves on a day to day basis to see that he is just a normal man who could be white, could be black, Asian, gay, straight, bi whatever because no one knows who is under the mask and who Peter really is and that's how people view heroes for the most part IRL. For example i love characters from all sorts of different races, genders and sexualities should I be limited to only liking characters I can look in a mirror and see myself literally or I can look into that heroes mask and imagine myself in it even if I'm not the right skin colour or gender. Because at the end of the day weather we are fictional or not we are all human and we can all relate to different things about different characters as I'm sure not every Batman fan is an absurdly rich, genius playboy.
th-cam.com/video/1S7w4wCFDWs/w-d-xo.html
it feels cheaper to make a new character who revolves around being gay.
@@nuhiolaweej8754 yeah I was just telling someone that, just because Tim openly expresses his attraction to girls docent mean he's not also discovering that he also likes men.
This was not needed. They did this to pander and not to mention, Stephanie Brown aside, didn’t he marry Barbra Gordon. I honestly preferred Harley and Joker and their Bonnie and Clyde spree. Catwoman and Batman with their will they, won’t they love story is a main stay in comics. This ain’t got nothing to do with representation. It’s all about sales and agenda because if it wasn’t they’d create all original characters with their own storylines.
I prefer Joker and Punchline.
He didn't marry Babs. That's just a weird thing in the Arkhamverse
@@sethoates7460 Yet that one actually made sense.
he never dated or married Barbara...
@@oKiterrrr Definitely was referencing Batman: Arkham Knight.
It feels like jk Rowling is influencing dc rn going back and making characters secretly progressive the entire time cos he was not bi when I was playing Lego Batman 2
Or Batman Arkham city and Knight 😑
Imagine making the robin who wore pants first gay
I fully agree with the points you made here. I don't care that they wanted a bisexual robin, I just care that they took a character with 30 years of history and said, "hey this dude likes dudes now despite having never shown any signs of that for 30+ years." It would make more sense with a new robin. Even Damien would make a bit more sense since he's so young and going through puberty and really learning who he is as a person. Either a new character or a character that hasn't had any relationships yet would work best. This decision was just sloppy.
When I say it made no sense people said I was passing off “casual homophobia” and that’s just stupid. Tim is sorta the Bobby Drake of DC as where he’s had a lot of girlfriends and so he’s been just known to like girls. And their clearly just making him bi because that’s the hip thing especially in entertainment. Now it’s fine he’s bi, it’s fine, ok. It’s not something I agree with but sure. And I have no problem with bi or gay people btw. But for Tim it makes no sense
To the Twitter mob criticising characters who happen to be gay and bisexual for reasons unrelated to those 2 things somehow means hatred of gay and bi people. Most people know that just like everyone else minorities are flawed imperfect people and that they have more to them than their minority. But to Twitter minorities are perfect saints who can do no wrong and are above criticism.
I think the Bobby thing is more egregious. Making Tim bi doesn’t invalidate is former relationships, I don’t think I even find them comparable.
Most people i see and agree with is Jason or Damien would made more sense
"The problem is not inclusion, the probelm is not knowing how to include"
"Lets Make a character who has been known straight longer than anyone who's been alive gay just to be cool"
God I hate living.
@Joker I mean theres always the greatest Tim Drake comic of all time, ”Tim Drake is Heterosexual” Thats always been my favorite
@Joker I'm bisexual and I don't like this. I don't understand why so many people are speaking over how I feel about it. I agree with the video.
@Joker name one comic before 2018 that said Tim was Bi
@Joker ah ok.
Bruce Wayne and Clark Kent are also Bi btw
@Joker Based on your logic of course: Every male character not dating a man and has not expressed that they are straight but has dated and looked only at woman for more than 2 decades or 100% of their comic run for years is Bi.
This kind of backlash (I think) is why it's hard for ppl to come out.