Over ten years ago, before I did the TON Rally School, I saw a group of spectators on a bank at the end of a straight. I knew the road went left but not how much. I tried to do a power slide to impress the spectators (never a good idea) but ended up on the wrong side of the crown. We slid into an shallow ditch and rolled onto the roof. This was a valuable lesson. If you exit a corner on the wrong side of the crown, you might end up upside down in a ditch looking stupid.
Late Apex was something learned at a one-day rally driving course 40 years ago. You don't know what's around the corner, it could tighten up or there could be a tree down. Late Apex gives that margin of safety in addition to a quicker entry onto the straight. I am now an instructor at the BIR Performance Driving School. We refer to the Late Apex as the Safe Apex.
im no driver or never droven one XD but in a competition dont you make pace notes?`so you can make notes on whats a head? so wont it benefit you to combine some of these lines even if its not "safe", sometimes you have to take the risk if you want to win or be the best. I don't know just me thinking out loud :D
Another great video on youtube on this subject that looks more at tarmac/circuit driving and how lines affect exit speed is "Physics of Racing" by Andre Marziali. Notably, a mix between the traditional and late apex lines allows you to maximize your acceleration as early as possible, and if your grip and acceleration are high enough it will give you a higher exit speed than a purely traditional line. Even if its slightly slower in a corner itself, its faster if the corner is followed by a long straight. Its interesting seeing how environmental factors also play a role in line choice, something i never really thought about but have likely done subconsiously when playing rally sims.
Whole series would be nice! Especially if you overlay one line over the other… (traditional apex vs late apex drone view please!) Keep up the great work! Thanks for sharing
Sorry, you all may be experts but this video has some glaring errors. Mostly I take issue with the visuals. You have a "traditional" apex, which is actually a late apex where the driver straightens the car until they hit the outside of the road and then turns that final bit. Then you have an "early" apex where the driver decides to start on the inside of the road rather than the outside. Then you have a "late" apex, where the driver forgot to turn at all, and suddenly realizes they are about to just drive off the road before turning sharply 90 degrees. A simple search for racing lines or apex lines results in a better description of the lines than what is done here in this video. The correct visuals should appear as such: Traditional Apex has an entry and exit that are nearly symmetrical when bisected by the apex. Early Apex has an elongated entry and a sharp corner exit. Late Apex has a sharp corner entry with an elongated exit. The information about WHY, is all correct however the visual description of the lines is misleading at best, if not just flat-out wrong. The signature of each racing line is the corner entry shape, the shape and speed dictate how the corner exit must be driven in order to safely remain on the road. The late apex naturally puts you on the inside of the corner exit, giving the largest margin of error, and is the easiest to modify mid-corner in order to adjust your line as the road shows itself. For that reason, it is also the preferred line to take when the road and or road conditions are unknown. While this is more advanced than what this video is trying to be, I think it is worth noting that all lines have their place. If you can only see the corner entry then a traditional line on a "Left 3 Opens" pace note is typically going to have a corner exit closer to that of a late apex. A late apex entry on a "Right 3 into Right 3" will put you on the wrong side of the road to correctly take the second Right 3. On the same set of R3 corners, you could use the early apex line as a trail braking zone (assuming you start from the outside on corner entry,) which will set you up for a late apex on the second right 3.
12:19 If the next turn was a right turn, the cars on the traditional- and early apex line will be better positioned than the car on the late apex line.
What is the best strategy when dealing with two turns that go in the same direction? Do you take a traditional apex line in the first one as to set yourself up for a late apex for the second? When you don't have a lot of distance for the next turn its rather hard to always set yourself up for a late apex line, when you just completed one from a turn in the same direction.
I can picture what you mean and I think you mean 2 turns with a small break in the middle, and for that I say try to treat it as one whole corner, as you will come out of the first one ready for the other.
I dont do rally but i really like to drive in mountain roads when i go to univercity. My best and safest route is to use a version between the late apex line and the traditional. Why is that ? well as he said i really don't know what its on the road, usually the side of the road is dirtier and even could have sharp objects from veahicle before me or dragged from the rain or just dirt and potholes. Also is much safer if there is a case that a car is coming ahead (if its a day) and its good to not go full. i always am ready to go back to my line just in case. At night is much safier because you can see the headlights from the cars behind the turn and know if a car is coming and the shadows on asphalt helps me decide if the side of the road is decent for me and my car capabilities. i prefer that way because i dont lose that much speed, dont have such a wear of the tires, keep my car at 3000rpm and its more fuel economy and go home faster. But you must know the road or at least drive it once or twice. (sorry for my english) GREAT VIDEOS
I’m getting tripped up on the terminology used in the whiteboard, which makes me doubt my understanding of the lesson. The “early apex line” looks like it’s the latest and the “late apex line” looks like it’s the earliest. So what are “early” and “late” in reference to in this whiteboard example?
Have you not got early and late apex the wrong way round, You turn (apex) sooner on the Cree line making the exit longer,, this early apex Blue line you are deep in the corner before turning ( later apexing)
Maybe a silly question lol but if you went into a left with a late apex and then into another left you would then have a early apex, Is there a way of avoiding that or would purely be foreseeing the road through the notes and taking a line that puts you on the outside? Or what could you do?
In this situation, the superior visibility from the late apex line would likely allow you to see the next corner so you can adjust your line accordingly and let your car track out and be better set up for the next corner. Assuming you can't see the next corner despite being on a late apex line, it is very easy to let the car track out if you finish the turn on the inside. Because of these factors, the late apex line leaves you options vs getting lucky with the traditional line. ~Drew
Early apex you change direction/turn late. Late apex you begin turning early. Ive always felt The names should be reversed. although i recognize this is the standard explanation for both.
So complete the hard part of the corner in the known road, if nothing changes you have time to view ahead and get more exit speed to setup for what's next
Nice to see an updated video on this! Very well explained and much more beginner friendly. Soo weird not seeing Wyatt though 🫣 Loved the bit where you suddenly added another corner on the board 😂
It's always good to brush up on the basics. Hard techniques are cool and definitely help but the basics will carry you the furthest
Over ten years ago, before I did the TON Rally School, I saw a group of spectators on a bank at the end of a straight. I knew the road went left but not how much. I tried to do a power slide to impress the spectators (never a good idea) but ended up on the wrong side of the crown. We slid into an shallow ditch and rolled onto the roof. This was a valuable lesson. If you exit a corner on the wrong side of the crown, you might end up upside down in a ditch looking stupid.
Late Apex was something learned at a one-day rally driving course 40 years ago. You don't know what's around the corner, it could tighten up or there could be a tree down. Late Apex gives that margin of safety in addition to a quicker entry onto the straight. I am now an instructor at the BIR Performance Driving School. We refer to the Late Apex as the Safe Apex.
im no driver or never droven one XD but in a competition dont you make pace notes?`so you can make notes on whats a head? so wont it benefit you to combine some of these lines even if its not "safe", sometimes you have to take the risk if you want to win or be the best. I don't know just me thinking out loud :D
I am a silent viewer for years. I am from gemany. Thank you guys so much for your clips. I like watchning them.
Drew is really natural talking to a camera. He seems to be a natural teacher too. Ace work!
Another great video on youtube on this subject that looks more at tarmac/circuit driving and how lines affect exit speed is "Physics of Racing" by Andre Marziali. Notably, a mix between the traditional and late apex lines allows you to maximize your acceleration as early as possible, and if your grip and acceleration are high enough it will give you a higher exit speed than a purely traditional line. Even if its slightly slower in a corner itself, its faster if the corner is followed by a long straight.
Its interesting seeing how environmental factors also play a role in line choice, something i never really thought about but have likely done subconsiously when playing rally sims.
I always loved these instructional videos. Even if you know the info, a refresher never hurt
This was so useful! And it was explained in a way that even I understood! Thank you!
the over head was a great expository shot. thanks
Excellent video Team O'Neil & Drew.
Thank you!
Whole series would be nice!
Especially if you overlay one line over the other… (traditional apex vs late apex drone view please!)
Keep up the great work!
Thanks for sharing
Check out their playlists
That was an excellent tutorial, thank you!
NICE VIDEO.......BRAZIL HERE........
Sorry, you all may be experts but this video has some glaring errors. Mostly I take issue with the visuals. You have a "traditional" apex, which is actually a late apex where the driver straightens the car until they hit the outside of the road and then turns that final bit. Then you have an "early" apex where the driver decides to start on the inside of the road rather than the outside. Then you have a "late" apex, where the driver forgot to turn at all, and suddenly realizes they are about to just drive off the road before turning sharply 90 degrees. A simple search for racing lines or apex lines results in a better description of the lines than what is done here in this video.
The correct visuals should appear as such:
Traditional Apex has an entry and exit that are nearly symmetrical when bisected by the apex.
Early Apex has an elongated entry and a sharp corner exit.
Late Apex has a sharp corner entry with an elongated exit.
The information about WHY, is all correct however the visual description of the lines is misleading at best, if not just flat-out wrong. The signature of each racing line is the corner entry shape, the shape and speed dictate how the corner exit must be driven in order to safely remain on the road. The late apex naturally puts you on the inside of the corner exit, giving the largest margin of error, and is the easiest to modify mid-corner in order to adjust your line as the road shows itself. For that reason, it is also the preferred line to take when the road and or road conditions are unknown.
While this is more advanced than what this video is trying to be, I think it is worth noting that all lines have their place. If you can only see the corner entry then a traditional line on a "Left 3 Opens" pace note is typically going to have a corner exit closer to that of a late apex. A late apex entry on a "Right 3 into Right 3" will put you on the wrong side of the road to correctly take the second Right 3. On the same set of R3 corners, you could use the early apex line as a trail braking zone (assuming you start from the outside on corner entry,) which will set you up for a late apex on the second right 3.
Please do make this a whole series!
Check the Make yourself a better driver and Advanced driving tips… playlists.
Thanks brother fir this amazing training
12:19 If the next turn was a right turn, the cars on the traditional- and early apex line will be better positioned than the car on the late apex line.
Agree. There is no always a better line, it will depend on the track.
Good work!! Clearly student of wytt! You can really see wytt coming through by the end of the video
Can't wait to have the disposable income to go to your school!
10000% recommend it.
What is the best strategy when dealing with two turns that go in the same direction? Do you take a traditional apex line in the first one as to set yourself up for a late apex for the second? When you don't have a lot of distance for the next turn its rather hard to always set yourself up for a late apex line, when you just completed one from a turn in the same direction.
Whatever allowes the most speed in the second corner Is what I usually go for.
I can picture what you mean and I think you mean 2 turns with a small break in the middle, and for that I say try to treat it as one whole corner, as you will come out of the first one ready for the other.
Thank you sir.
very nice explanation can you guys give insights on how to get out of tight parking spots using the handbrake
I dont do rally but i really like to drive in mountain roads when i go to univercity. My best and safest route is to use a version between the late apex line and the traditional. Why is that ? well as he said i really don't know what its on the road, usually the side of the road is dirtier and even could have sharp objects from veahicle before me or dragged from the rain or just dirt and potholes. Also is much safer if there is a case that a car is coming ahead (if its a day) and its good to not go full. i always am ready to go back to my line just in case. At night is much safier because you can see the headlights from the cars behind the turn and know if a car is coming and the shadows on asphalt helps me decide if the side of the road is decent for me and my car capabilities. i prefer that way because i dont lose that much speed, dont have such a wear of the tires, keep my car at 3000rpm and its more fuel economy and go home faster. But you must know the road or at least drive it once or twice. (sorry for my english) GREAT VIDEOS
I’m getting tripped up on the terminology used in the whiteboard, which makes me doubt my understanding of the lesson. The “early apex line” looks like it’s the latest and the “late apex line” looks like it’s the earliest. So what are “early” and “late” in reference to in this whiteboard example?
Have you not got early and late apex the wrong way round,
You turn (apex) sooner on the Cree line making the exit longer,, this early apex
Blue line you are deep in the corner before turning ( later apexing)
Maybe a silly question lol but if you went into a left with a late apex and then into another left you would then have a early apex, Is there a way of avoiding that or would purely be foreseeing the road through the notes and taking a line that puts you on the outside? Or what could you do?
In this situation, the superior visibility from the late apex line would likely allow you to see the next corner so you can adjust your line accordingly and let your car track out and be better set up for the next corner. Assuming you can't see the next corner despite being on a late apex line, it is very easy to let the car track out if you finish the turn on the inside. Because of these factors, the late apex line leaves you options vs getting lucky with the traditional line. ~Drew
@@Teamoneilrally wow thank you hood job on the video it made alot of sense and that does too
Early apex you change direction/turn late. Late apex you begin turning early. Ive always felt The names should be reversed. although i recognize this is the standard explanation for both.
That’s literally the opposite of what it is? Early Apex = Early Turn in. If you turn in late to a early apex you’re not making that apex bud.
It's better to go into a corner slow and come out fast than to go into a corner fast and come out dead.
apex line depend whats the next line, curve
10:41
Great!
cant you combine? traditional in to a early? it then becomes more of a driving skill situation?
awesome video. Thank you!
Great fun!
So complete the hard part of the corner in the known road, if nothing changes you have time to view ahead and get more exit speed to setup for what's next
The animation and voice acting was a bit rough but I admire the fact that Jesus was literally a bright beacon and also how Jesus' words hit INSTANTLY.
I love me some ape latexing.
Great info, said simply.
Thank you for watching!
Great stuff! Absolutely! @@Teamoneilrally I'm a Mk7 Fiesta driver.
Drew awesome talks on camera ! Please make a video about placing car in a corner!
Great content, thank you.
Nice to see an updated video on this! Very well explained and much more beginner friendly. Soo weird not seeing Wyatt though 🫣
Loved the bit where you suddenly added another corner on the board 😂