Count me as one of those that don't like long videos of people talking but your idea to use a voice over paired with this excellent touring video of your area had me captivated! It helped to keep me entertained while i listened to you. Having your bike display kept me intrigued as far as your ebike performance as you rode around, especially seeing you reach such high speeds (that I would never dare attempt)! Thank you, again!
Many thanks for this brilliant review / guide. The unbiased advice you give, based on your wide knowledge and experience, is invaluable to anyone considering a DIY build. A great piece of work!😊
A year ago I fitted a Photon to a cheap old Marin full-sus MTB for exercise purposes, new cassette and new brakes, and now I weigh 25kg/55lb less! Agree with your review points. Had to put the 48V 20Ah battery on a saddle-stem-mounted rear rack which leaves space for a mid-mounted kiddie seat for my 5YO grandson! I can ride pedal assist for 2-3 hours, maybe 35-40 miles, without getting tired, with no sore backside and still have more than 50% battery left. 😀
Your review was a polished piece of work. Being an owner of a photon I agreed with everything you covered. Especially the concern about serviceability. With the current supply issues I worry about the need to send in for repair. If it is taking months to fulfill new orders will parts be available for quick turnaround if service is required. The only issue I have encountered is getting the brake sensors working. You can order a cable that includes a pair of magnetic sensors that uses a small magnet mounted to the brake lever. I just couldn't get it to work. So I opted to go with new integrated brake levers with built in switch cutoff. Again the three pin connector is not compatible with most master levers. I finally gave up and removed the extra cables . Another thing I would like is shift sensors. In 2000watt mode my cassette is taking a beating when shifting. Because of the high torque I find I primarily ride in 7, 8th and 9th gear. Never a need to for the lower gears. I am shopping for a more robust cassette as I pretty much killed 9th. Jumps over the teeth under high demand. But that's a problem I really like. The response and torque are very good. I also very much agree with your assessment of the torque sensor. It is as good as my bosch motor on my 12 thousand dollar reise and muller homage. Bosch has a superb torque sensor but the photon's is adjustable in a variety of ways to custom tune the feel. The adjustment of the riding profile using the phone app is remarkable. I strongly wish I could set different profiles or at least be able to save a profile. Once I accidentally reset the app and lost an hours worth of custom settings. There is over 30 custom settings from throttle to torque to battery management to set. Out of the box it works nice. You do have to set your battery voltage and low cut-off. A word of advice in selecting a proper battery. You need to buy a premium battery that is capable of sustained 40amp output. The photon can use 52 volt 40amp output. I use a 52v battery rated at 20ah. My full charge is 58v.. I put 48 miles of mostly throttle and quite a bit of high speed runs and only drained it down to 52v. Super impressed. I never hear it run. I love this motor.
Thanks for the comment. The brake thing sounds pretty frustrating. I tend to pedal lightly when shifting gears. There is not a point on the harness for a gear cutoff but I think you can add one by using the brake cuttoff and either an extension or wire it in higher up. Check the pin out though as it might not be the same as the one from Bafang. Another thing you could try is to have the power ramp up slower on the pedal assist. This would give more time to shift with lower power. Worth a shot. Cheers
Great, comprehensive and considered review, I think you covered pretty much everything very well. !00% in agreement about the target market - that's me exactly.
Thank you for the Photon. Would greatly appreciate more detailed video on the CYC app. Both Bluetooth and Ride Control apps. In, as you alluded to, a setting and result format. Once again, thank you.
Thank you so much for your time and effort that you put into making this video. I can't imagine a better, more concise or informative video being made on the subject. You really are a blessing for the community!
I don't know if you read your comments or not, but CYC is setting up a "repair/warranty" facility in Austin, Texas. This should be this year if what Jon told me is correct. That will cut down on any shipping times if work needs to be done on your Photon. As a side note, CYC is coming out with a BBSHD killer called the Proton, and it can do 3000 watts. I'm guessing that will make you happy.
Yeah I heard about something being setup in Texas. It would be a good move. Dealers will struggle with the workload. I terms of the Proton. We will see. It's not much bigger than the Photon so it won't take 3kw for long in the same way that the Photon can't do more than 750 sustained in hot weather. It's good to have these motors though. It's definitely stired things up. Bafang finally put a ts in the bbshd and rumor of the 02. There are also new motors from To7 and a company called truck run. Should be a good year!
Converted a Trek Marlin 5 2022 (Large frame) with this motor (38t chainring). 200 lbs rider nearly 60 years old. US profile loaded in race mode, assist lvl 1= barely getting any workout, like 1 of 10. Battery seems to like it because it's still at 51% (50.6V), 107 kms later (52V 17.5AH Samsung 35E cells) Now on Canada preset, street mode, for legality and will see how far I go.
Sounds like a great build. Its nice that you can use those cells on it as you get the extra capacity for less overall battery size and weight. That's impressive range. I think stock that its pulling 250watts at level one but you can check that in the ride app. Cheers
I'm generally in agreement with your comments, but would point out that wide range rear 50-10 cassettes are very often used with 1x front chainrings, and on Boost frames 34T may be the max size that will fit.
Since 12 speed 50-10 cassettes have large gear steps then there is no other choice but to use modified close ration 34-12 cassete and 42t chainring for selecting comfortable cadence on flats and false flats while riding with the motor turned off for less noise and more natural feeling, reserving the motor for hills only. For really steep hills using walk assist mode is another option since on long tours occasional walking is good for leg recovery. Short commutes with steep hills aren't ridable in this case. Future option for 2x chainring would be needed since I'm not sure if somehow bolting on smaller chainring would be possible due to reports of original 34t chainring having threads instead of splines which get stripped.
@HighVoltageKits the CYC 34T chainring fits perfectly, with perfect chainline and maybe 2mm of clearance on my example. The issue is that Boost frames have a slightly wide rear thru axle and with a narrow BB the rear stays have to flare out to accommodate the rear tire. That step out conflicts with using larger chainrings, these bikes were never intended for them. The default 38T chainring isn't always an option so builders should be aware of this.
@uvwuvw-ol3fg not my experience at all. Almost all decent trail and enduro MTBs have Boost frames and 1x BBs and are intended to be used with small 30-34T chainrings. On these bikes you aren't as interested in maintaining cadence because the terrain determines your speed, so gear spacing does not matter. Additionally there tends to be larger spacing in the lower gears because your focus is just getting up that hill. No need to get off and walk, with the Photon my bike can get up any hill I can keep traction on. In general these bikes are not intended for road use or touring and are probably wasted if used that way.
@uvwuvw-ol3fg can you clarify the last part of your comment? My 34T chainring has the same splines as the others so I must be misunderstanding your comment.
Hey, just discovered this new project called freebeat Morph 2-in-1 e-Bike after watching your video. Gotta say, I'm impressed by the outstanding features this e-bike offers. The fact that it can be charged indoors is a game-changer! The brushless 750W motor and 80Nm torque ensure a powerful and exhilarating ride. The 80mm front suspension and puncture-resistant fat tires guarantee a smooth journey on any terrain. Plus, the Smart Saddle Detection+ feature and the ability to convert calories into CO2-free miles really caught my attention. Definitely putting my support behind this project! Keep up the great work!
very interesting and useful review, covering basically all the questions i have about the photon. tremendously informative. would in addition really appreciate appreciate your thoughts on how the cyc photon compares to the other torque sensing mid drive currently available, the tsdz2, especially with osf, and what in the build quality, anticipated reliability, and user experience, might induce a rider to pay the nearly doubled price? as a standalone yours is truly a superlative review and very helpful. i just wondered if, given the torque sensor capabilties of the photon and tsdz2, a comparison of those motors might be useful. many many thanks, jeff
I have never ridden the Tong Shen but its taking a battering on the forums. Very easy to break. Its very cheap but not by any means reliable. There are a bunch of new TS motors this year though so it may well be a comparison that gets easier later this year. Right now its the only thing in its category. It is quite expensive though.
Very informative... was on the fence between the Pro and Photon, but now going with Photon based on ALL that I have learned from watching all 31:10 of this video 😆. Thanks for taking the time for such detail
Thanks for making it to the end. There have been a few issues with the Photon which I did a video on my experiences. But that it a CYC thing in general. Modern design but not always the most reliable.
At this stage I just want it to work lol. The only issue with this idea is the old stuff is left in there. I’d prefer they just made the thing more serviceable to start with.
Fantastic and exhaustive video. As an older former road rider I have been disappointed with the majority of e-bikes on offer for exactly the reasons you cite in this video. I would love an e-bike that rides like a bike but has the capability to allow weak riders to ride with fully doped pros. It might even be interesting to have endurance races with mixed fields where the balance of weight / power / battery / physiology all come into play in covering a given course in a winning time. I think it would be cool to resurrect Paris Brussels Paris with mixed fields of pros & ebikes. Now that I look like one of the old duffers who used to ride the dernies, maybe I could even participate with a powerful enough e-bike.
John, I removed my most recent comment because of your fair response. I wrote a comparison of the Bafang mid drive to the new Photon only highlighting some of the considerations in my original post. I couldn't understand why it was deleted because I thought it was even handed. If you said you didn't delete it, I take you at your word. Best to let others decide what is best for them. Good luck in all your R&D efforts and safe riding to those that love high performance ebikes. Great to have competition in the market place that only refines options available to the consumer.
I appreciate that Luke. I actually found the comment which had been filtered out for some reason along with replies to it by the TH-cam algorithm. I usually check messages set to review by YT and it had slipped my mind. Apologies about that. It seems to block some comments for no real reason at times. I could see nothing wrong with it. I generally try to reply to all comments I get. Thanks for the kind words of support.
The battery is always the hard thing to get right with the DH bikes. There is not usually much of a triangle space to work with. I think electrify bike has some compact options.
There are some on the way. I have been working quietly with their Western representative. I should be getting information from Eurobike next week. Lots to be excited about there. I should have samples of the motors to play with in the near future. We will get one on the dyno and see what it can do!
Great review. I really would like to know if it can be disabled, so that opportunistic theft can be denied motor assist, maybe enabling the owner a small possibility of grabbing the bike before it's gone, probably forever. In any case, I'm thinking of using a small padlock around the chain to drag the chain off the sprocket, so he'd have to push it away...
Thx.I thought I read in the online manual that there's a password function... doesn't explain what that's for. Wondering if there is there such a thing as an inline keyed switch for the battery cabling?
Great review! I can tell you put in the time ti learn about the motor and really get a feel for it. These motors are meant forDIY people, right? So why not make it repairable by the owners? You said they're gambling with that, and time will tell, but i think ultimately they're going to lose. From what I've read so far, their customer service does not seem to be on par with what you would expect from a successful warranty/repair service. I wasn't going to buy the photon anyways, but if i was considering it, that would deter me for sure. I'll stick to my HV BBSHD thank you very much 😉
Once you HV the motor it's just a beast! No besting that. I do think it's a gamble. Reputation is everything and in order to keep that you would need rapid turnaround on repairs. That means dedication of staff and resources away from sales. I think they have time to put it right. But if next year people are waiting months to get a regrease or for repairs... If they sell enough then there would be a case for local businesses to take on repair. It will take significant planning and organization.
@@HighVoltageKits that's kind of my point. I just don't see CYC being able to roll out a repair program like that, but we will see! And you're right- no besting it 😁
This is a really good review, so comprehensive. I should probably stop recommending the bbs02 for a wham bam thank you mam conversion as the cadence sensor is pretty weak.
No you shouldn't. What you say about Bafang cadence sensing is simply untrue. Some will prefer it to any torque sensor. A BBS02 costs 1/2 of a CYC Photon motor, parts are ubiquitous, inexpensive and motors are easy to rebuild. Further, the jury is out on the Photon as to its reliability. Great review by John of this channel and thanks for that. For many, for $200 more than the BBS02, the BBSHD I believe bang for buck is the best ebike motor in the industry. But for many the BBS02 is fine and can even take 35 amps for big miles with an aftermarket controller...perhaps even better than the Photon due to more limited armature mass aka heat sink. Beauty of Bafang cadence sensing is their reliability compared to conventional torque sensors and their programmability. One can create great granularity with non linear power increments at lower power settings with the Bafang configuration tool. Because power relative to speed is an exponential function, one can program for much higher gradations of power assist at higher speed....and much smaller gradations at lower speeds. I am not dissing the Photon. Competition is always good in the marketplace. The Photon however is a $1K motor. Many will prefer torque sensing. and therefore welcome the Photon, CYC finally creating a quiet motor. I come from a bike racing background. Cadence versus Torque sensing doesn't matter to me, likely because of what level rider I am. I can easily find the sweet spot of rider watt input to the bike relative to motor watt contribution and do so daily. I also ride to heart rate. For training, in some ways, cadence sensing is better because motor assist does not increase with human assist unlike torque sensing which provides a better workout for the rider at a given motor power level because the rider is pushing against a harder limit of motor assist. In summary, the conversation is nuanced and not cut and dried. Right now I prefer to stick with the Bafang BBSHD and honestly the Photon because of its heat sensitivity and the power level and speed I prefer, I still believe for 'my usage' the BBSHD is a much better value proposition. Othes may feel different and good to have options like the Photon for others with a different usage model.
Good review. One point that should be stressed is that even if thermally limited to ~750 watts that will allow most of us who are cyclists to spin out at top speed allowed by our bike's gearing, other than for short bursts at very high pedaling RPM as you noted. That surely was one factor that CYC considered in their motor design choices. This doesn't appeal to the throttle jockeys who want to go that fast all day without pedaling but that is not the target user group for Photon. I am about 300 miles into my 1 month old Photon on an old Cannondale F1000 hardtail set up for street and path riding and I am loving it. No issues so far except a display that won't allow me to change wheel size to match what I have on my bike, so the data it shows are off. The serviceability issue has me worried as I am usually a total DIY'er for all things mechanical. Hopefully this will change going forward or at least the authorized CYC service will turn out to be fast and reasonably cheap. I have a second Photon on order for another build which will be a very nice bike indeed.... ti frame gravel bike. I'd have liked that to be a Proton but have no idea when that will be offered... maybe I'll have to upgrade when it comes available.
You make very good points. I think it is very well made for its target market. Funny why the display won't let you change that. Are you using the larger one or the SW102?
Another comment I'll add is that I had the same experience with the cranks - my left one worked loose. We're probably not the only ones this has happened to.
I think it was the left that was with mine as well. It seems like a pretty common thing. Something to keep in mind like retorquing wheel nuts after 100kms
@wendyatkinson1 I think there must be some flex and that is the side that will work loose. I added blue loctite the pre-applied thread lock might not be working well enough. Definitely something to monitor.
i live in austria, i got the bbshd for 550€ on pswpower, and the photon would cost me 1300€ on fasterbikes, or around 1200€ if i order directl on cyc, so for me its def not a replacement
Yeah you can definitely get them cheaper from the direct China places. The ebike places factor in things like warranty which will be harder to get. Thats a really good price though. Not seen one that low for a while.
Thanks for the thorough, all things considered review. I think it's great that Bafang has some competition, but for now I remain in the BBSHD camp as its hot most of the year where I ride, and a cherished reward for my daily cardio work out includes some exciting pinned throttle action. Sadly, I don't think much can be done to lighten a HD, big magnets and a strong copper rich field inevitably lead to higher mass. I don't have a big problem with the cadence PAS either now that it is dialed to my needs. After seeing some promo materials for the X1 Proton, I have some concerns that it may be the noisy X1 motor, and it seems to hang far low. For me the search continues for creating a sub 22Kg mid-travel trail ripper with 48v/17.5 Ah that has enough torque to pull 50kph plus on the intertidal beaches as well. But in the meantime, I'm having a ball.
You are welcome. There will always be a place for the BBSHD! Its that mass that makes it work to a large extent as all the heat can soak into it. Once dialed cadence based PAS can be pretty nice as well. For on beaches you need fat tires I would think. What about one of the Super 73 style frames. You probably want Chromalloy if possible. What is the budget. If there are no limits you could get one of those Titanium fatbike frames! I would love one of those one day! I am not sure beaches would be good with the two chains of the CYC. There is also salt to consider which plays havock with mechanicals. Lots of good fenders and regular greasing / spraying off. That sounds like a challenging build. I doubt there is anything comercial. You are welcome on our discord group. We have a pimp my ride section where I saw a cool ebike recently that had a surfboard rack on it! Cheers
Hey Voltage - Thanks for the awesome review. This was actually the reason I ended up putting a Photon on order!! Quick question for you as I just finished installing the motor last night - should I expect a bit more resistance now when pedaling vs. when having no motor? I would not say I am seeing a ton more resistance now, but the pedals definitely do not spin freely either. Curious if I potentially tightened something too much like the spindle lock ring, but I backed it off and resistance was about the same.
I think there is an issue with the tolerance on the machining on the bearing cup for the non drive side. I have a video for this week to explain what I think is going on. But yeah its going to be a bit stiffer than with a cartridge bearing BB. It should not affect use as you have all that power though. I think they do need to fix it though.
I've been riding a converted Giant Farrago for about 3 years with an open-source firmware Tong Sheng TSDZ2 motor. Mostly street riding, some easy trails, moderately hilly terrain. It's been great so far - no mechanical issues, but I don't abuse it. 750 Watt motor, 52V battery. It has a similar motor construction and size as the Photon and the same heat issue. The open-source version allows for a lot of configuration. The torque sensor works well and provides a natural riding feel. Generally the heat is manageable and the conrtoller rarely has to reduce current except on very long steep hills (160F max before reduction). I'd love to try out the Photon but am wondering how much real-world improvement it would offer over the Tong Sheng. Has anybody out there used both?
I have not used the Tong Shen but I heard lots of stories. You likely did not encounter issues by not pushing it. There are some new motors coming out from TOSEVEN that are more in line with the Tong Shen. The Photon is a joy to ride. Especially unrestricted. Great torque sensor. It's longevity is unknown to some extent.
Yeah, the Tong Sheng has one plastic gear that's probably intended to act like a fuse to prevent damage to any of the other drive train components. I bought a spare but haven't had to use it yet. You can also replace the plastic gear with a metal gear. I'll tear it down this winter for a detailed evaluation of the bearings and gears, replacing anything that needs it. Parts are widely available. I'll probably buy the Photon to try out because it does seem more capable than the Tong Sheng. @@HighVoltageKits
Photon not being serviceable has stopped me buying one yet. I have needed to pull apart 3 ebike hub motors, and mid drives from what have read need some maintenance and repairs.
Still on the original Cyclone 3k and I can't decide if these new generations are an upgrade or a downgrade. Maybe it's just a sign that I should start building a new bike. :)
Chris, Cyclone 3K is a very different motor from the new Photon. Word is there will be a high performance motor called the Proton which is based upon Photon design language....like a beefier version. Knock on bigger Cyclone motors...or I would own a bike with one...is the noise. CYC answered this concern with the Photon but it is a lower power offering. High RPM...just like the Sur-Ron and even high RPM hot rodded BBSHD exposes more noise of course because turning very RPM creates a resonance that sounds a bit like a shriek. For me, as a BBSHD lover, a higher performance version of the Photon maybe of greater interest. If you are good with the noise signature of the larger CYC motors, they are dam good now that many of the early bugs have been resolved.
@@lukewalker1051 Thanks for this. I haven't been paying much attention to the new stuff because my old cyclone is still running perfectly, though a bit whiney sounding as they all are. One thing I definitely want is the newer software, the old BT app isn't very good at all. 3k is also more power than I need, by quite a bit, but I still love hitting the gas every time. :)
Always happy to come across another Cyclone 3K user. Over 5 years on mine and she's never let me down. Looks kinda clunky? Sure, but so much fun! It's the Millenium Falcon of ebikes! 😂 Wish SickBikeParts and Luna still sold them. Just glad I stocked up on parts - hope to keep her going for decades!
Is there any new information regarding to current production bottlenecks affecting shipping. Someone on endless sphere said there is some additional testing needed due to delay in controller supply. Not sure if this that's up to date or is it the same thing repeated from previous delay. Still for some shipping takes 4 weeks only and for others beyond 11 weeks. Others said they didn't receive any shipment confirmation, the motor suddenly just turned up one day without warning.
@@HighVoltageKits Currently other European distributors say it's available in 45 working days, so there is no other choice but to take it as a true estimate.
Hello 👋, I plan remake my BBsHD to torque sensor , becouse that motor is serviceable , and 160N.m could filling great for torque, now I have idea how to do this , but may be you guys have some similar projects? Could be interesting looking how can do it more experience team . Anyway thank you for video , good luck
Can you do a tutorial how to utilize the magnetic brake sensor kit to attach it to a relay to power a 12v brake light using an external 12v mini battery?
You need a replay that will take 5 volts on one side that you can wire the 12 volt into the other side. The just connect up the relay. There will be some trickery though as the relay will need to close when you activate the brake. The brake voltage is 5 volts close and then activated when it drops to less than one volt. Wheras the relay would need the opposite. I don't think I can commit to a video right now but its definitely the project that discord was made for. I suggest figure it out on there and we can then make a video later once there is more to go on.
@@HighVoltageKits Not putting me off, at all, mine coming in July. I'm buying for the torque sensing, quietness, and more than adequate power and ease of switching to street mode. Your video reviews, High Voltage, sold me. Thank you.
You need to purchase everything at your LBS if serviceability/warranty repairs is your uppermost consideration. Very few high tech and compact items are servicable any longer. It is a replacement world my friend. We must thank Apple for that.
There is an app you can tweak it with but there are not that many changes you need to make. More adjust to what feels right. I have not had problems with the chain when starting.
I don't understand did you have a video of you installing this kit??? Newer heard of this kit, don't know anything about it... don't know where you got it...odd, never heard of grease in a electric motor...
I think it very much depends on conditions and how much human power you want to contribute in terms of how long. But 35-40kph should be something that is doable. The excased nature if the motor means that it struggles to cool even in winter.
Ya know, about the noise, my BBSHD seems quieter with the now Luna Eclipse (42t) than the Lekkie 40t. The Luna is much less resonant, deader than the thinner Lekkie. What’s a couple of ounces on an ebike ? And the the teeth are replaceable on the Luna at half the cost, and more, of a new chainring. Or you could replace with Chinese...but I digress... Motor sounds more of a dull buzz compared to a faint whine. Whatever, I must be.....?
That's interesting to hear. I have seen those Luna ones break fast as well. Sounds like you have your setup very well dialed in. Which is probably why it's quiet. Good job! Cheers
I'm not a serious enough cyclist to worry top much about splines and things like q factor. I talk about them because people want to know. I have square taper on the bbshd and isis on cyc. I have never had my cranks creak or come loose on either. But some people swear by one or the other. The issue with CYC for me has always been quality and reliability.
I don't think that set up is better than a Fabulous Road Warrior X2 with a 60V 24 ah system and dual 750 watt motors cranking out 200 Nm of torque. Climb up mountains and rest at high speeds of 65 kph not even pedaling. But if you enjoy pedaling the Road Warrior has a torque sensor system also. Under $3k USD.
That's a pretty bold claim to suggest that 3 grands worth of prebuilt bike is better than using a Photon kit and battery with a high spec donor bike! Are you a representative from the company? If you want to send me a dual drive bike I will be happy to put it through its paces on the terrain around here. The bike I built has Shimano XT brakes with a 203 rotor on the front. It has Shimano air suspension on the front and a seat suspension. It has a light but very strong frame from Salsa. The rear mech is SRAM x9. The wheels and Hub are DT Swiss which is pretty much the gold standard. Let me know if you are interested. Happy to do a comparison.
Strange, i had the same issue with my traditional throttle versus the one that the Sine Wave KT controllers require - quite bizarre I hope I have not burned anything sigh
i want to buy one but people on forums cant get past the fact that im putting it on a $300 bike to answer questions haha. i get it, but is it really that bad to use it on a relatively cheap bike? its only temporary until i get something better. im done showing up to work soaked ;n
Do what you want, there is nothing wrong with using what you have. You can always swap the motor onto a different bike. You are welcome to join our discord community. highvoltagekits.com/discord
I really like this motor and I've commented before but I plan on buying one some time in the future. I bought a used bike for the conversion, a 2019 Trek Marlin 7 but I'm having trouble figuring out gearing. It has a max chainring of 32t recommended for 1x but I'm trying out a 40t. I can use the granny gears but it makes noise mostly on the chainring when in the biggest 2 granny gears on the cassette. Chainring is narrow wide and seems like a good recreation of what it will look like with the photon but I'm concerned that I will damage the chain/chainring and cassette with this terrible chain line. Are there any mountain bikes that I can put a 40t chainring on that will have a good chainline even through all the granny gears? I bought a box components three prime 9 groupset (11-50t cassette) and I'm hoping that might help (maybe I can rearrange the cassette?). Any recommendations are appreciated.
Sorry I missed this. Maybe post this on our Discord. It's free to join. You will likely get more advice there. You can also post pictures which will help a lot.
Thanks for the great review and footage! One question: CYC claims there's very little rolling resistance from the motor when it's off. My BBSHD was pointless to pedal with a flat battery. Can you confirm the Photon is easy to pedal without power?
Will I experience noticeable drag pedaling with the assist off? On hills, I'm pushing my pulse rate too high for my 77 years. So I would like a boost only on the steep climbs. I can buy a small battery to keep the weight down. The bike will be a 21 lb cross bike.
Yes there is drag. The way around is to have it so that level 1 is just enough to overcome it. Say 25 watts of power. Then you can have a couple of other levels. Each level can be configured so maybe a 250 watts for moderate hills and a 500 for steep hills. There is an option to have a road and offroad so you could also then have one that is set even higher if you even found yourself totally out of gas or injured and needed to get home. It's a great motor for keeping you going riding for longer. Although the long term reliability of it is a bit questionable based on my current experience. I will update on that and you can find more information if you look at my video history.
I think its not needed. The sensor is very responsive to when you stop pedaling and it can be adjusted as needed. If you use the brake sensor you cut power. The same with the gear sensor. If you change gear and pedal lightly it will change very smoothly. Just like on a normal bike when you would do the same. I have not missed a brake cut off and I like that there is less clutter on the bars.
I think it would. I was going to do a follow up. I have hit problems though. I'll do a full update when I learn more. th-cam.com/video/jnloLVfKxGw/w-d-xo.html
It does but at that point you have a 600-750 watt motor. So it depends on the kind of riding you will be doing. If you need more than that power assist for your rides continuously then its probably not the best option. They will have a more powerful Proton out so potentially that one will be able to sustain higher power continuously.
Hi, where is the motor temperature measured from? inside the motor or on the outer case?.... I have got a bbshd up to 55°C on the outer case and was wondering how much heat can it take before it burns out. any ideas?
Thanks for this review. I've killed/cooked a couple of TSDZ2 s due to climbing 500m over 15k commute with average gradients of 5 to 7% with ramps reaching 20% depending on route. In summer will have temps in the mid 30s... Though I won't go the 20% ramp route those days. I've ridden Shimano, Yamaha and Bosch motors and I don't really need or want more power than they provide but I would like to adjust speed limits. I don't use a throttle. Would this motor fit this criteria?
With those conditions and temps based on what I have seen here with mine in similar you will throttle the motor pretty fast if you run it unrestricted. At 750 watts of assist though it should be able to maintain that level of power. The longevity of the motor is not guaranteed as it is a new product although it feels well made. I also have some videos about some new motors from TOSEVEN which are also Torque sensing. They could be really good if they iron out some of the kinks.
@@HighVoltageKits I'm watching reviews of the ToSeven too, the 02 is of interest to me... I prefer the idea of the lighter motor as long as it couples with my 48v batteries. Thanks for your time and work.
how many assist levels are there? on display screen looked like nine? (there were nine bars, number fluctuating throughout the video.) if there are nine assist levels, is rider able to program desired motor assistance in each assist level? on endless sphere discussion is that in reality there are only three levels, and that choosing to have more than those three simply results in duplicate motor assist as you work your way through the nine -- so that from the nine you get only three assist levels, the rest being dupes of those three. great video. i've watched many times and each time pick up something new.
Appreciate the kind words. Thanks. There are three. That's just the way they did the graphic. You can specify each of these levels for example 250,750 and 1500 (if unrestricted). You are right tho its kind of confusing. I am not aware of a way to make it to 9 levels and if there is then it probably does do that and duplicate it. The app only has three and there is no way to make it more. In reality its all you need as its a torque system. 9 levels of power is like a hangover from magnet based cadence sensors.
@@HighVoltageKits thanks! So you used a 52v for your testing? If you legs are maxed out on cadence, can the throttle and motor make the bike go faster? If you selected the 38T chainring and 11 to 32 cassette for example, and using your legs you could reach say for example 50kmph , is the motor able to rev higher than the chainring and pedals? Another way of explaining what I am saying is , is the motor able to power the bike without the pedals moving? Thanks very much
hey boss. im looking to mount one of these to a 2017 santa cruz chameleon for single track riding. sustained climbs (~1 hour) followed by downhill. i live in ca so mild climate. would heat be an issue for this application?
Depends on hills. Well and top speed. If you think you won't ride very steep stuff I'd go a bit higher for a more comfortable cadence at higher speeds. If you don't want much speed it will be fine.
Was almost sure going to buy a Photon.. just because its not from china.. but now that you mentioned repairability.. but then again bafang is locking down their motors, so something newer than the bbshd is out of discussion hmm
I was thinking the same thing. Grin (and probably others as well) sells the oil. If I remember correctly the oil is magnetic and transfers the heat to the outer heat sink.
About the gearing...and how does 750 watt do 40 something mph ! Tall gears I guess AND pedaling ? The gearing, I run a S.A. 3 speed, and it’s in 2nd (direct drive) 98% of the time. That’s a 42t to a 17t cog. And it does 30mph on flat ground with a fresh battery. Then it drops to 28 and stays there. 52v 20ah Bike weighs 60lbs with dropper and Maxxis DHF’s.
I.m also a commuter doing around 40km back and forth from work. Does it make sense to get the cyc or an m620 for long distance commute with slight hills on the way? I'll be running mostly top speed all the time, I'm hoping any of these 2 can do 45+ km\h
Either of these will net you 45kph. The 620 has more power over a sustained period especially when its hot. If you are carrying much cargo. More power. It's bigger though and the torque sensor is not as good. The 620 is a mature platform and the cyc while more fancy is new and it's reliability is unproven outside of engineering tests. Let me know what you go for.
@@HighVoltageKits thanks for the input. I asked dengfu and they will be releasing a new frame in a few weeks. Which collides with the launch of the new m630 motor and the automatic IGH. I'm planning to use this pair
I think you could easily hit 80 down a hill. Up a hill the max is about 30 and with the gearing it does build heat. If you gear down you are going slower.
@@HighVoltageKits you have your current fat bike set up with a bbhsd . Would you also recommend this photon with that type of bike. I am on the fence, which to use for my fat bike with 100mm bottom brkt.
Does the CYC system need a gear sensor? (less torque on bike chain when shifting into other gears)? And how does this system compare to the Bafang Mid Motors
I'm 46 and I say fuck Transportation regulations. People need to get places! Paying yearly fees just to go to the grocery store or see a friend is wearing thin with free minded people. Here in America travel without molestation is an actual law. If you pay attention to cars around you and local laws it shouldn't matter what you are riding or driving to do you daily life. The levels of Governmental control are coming to an end in this world! I've been forced to ride bikes in my late 30's because of where I live, but thankfully I've always been an cyclist and can endure anything especially the bullshit Large governments oppose on common people just trying to live their lives. I mean shit, I finish vehicles for a living yet I'm not allowed to drive because of court payments. I run from the cops all the time on my bike. Aim it and go when the lights come on. I "obey" traffic laws but most police are out to get the people they are supposed to protect.
I have seen a few videos on the Audit channels with people standing their ground with the law against officious police officers. Its harder on a bike because you have no protection from them. I quite agree.
In regards to Trek they are a massive rip off even if you arent buying a e-bike. Giant contracts for a lot of bike companies and then those other bike companies slam high prices on top. merida is a good well priced brand and Norco isnt shabby either, going to do a e bike conversion to my norco Fluid HT as yeah age and injuries are catching up.
If you get stopped by the police.. What happens? I would loose my car license for 6 months and have to pay a fine:( If i loose my car license i loose my job.. :(
I don't think anyone would bother me on this bike where I live. You can restrict them for street legal power. It depends on where you live I guess. If you think you would lose your license for 6 months for riding an ebike you must live in a pretty harsh place.
@@HighVoltageKits I live in Norway:) If you ride a e-scooter over 20km/h you will get a fine for $500 and the police will destroy your "unregistered vehicle". :( it sucks long hairy donkey balls
Yeah. If it becomes popular enough then perhaps there will be places more local you can do that. My big fear with it is that people will just use them till they become unrideable and then just chuck them.
@@HighVoltageKits The other risk is that there will be legislation that hits unservicable products. EU just passed law (votes 500 to 10) to prevent glued in smart phone batteries and there is a LOT of discussion against "self destructing" BMS systems that are hard to service are environmentally unsustainable. I don't think it's far off to think EU could pass a law that would prevent locally unservicable ebike motors to be sold. They could be very fast to act if an environmentally unsustainable product is in direct competition with EU produced one. Those that think this is a joke or no big deal can see the effects in few months when ALL major manufactures have made a smart phone with replacable battery just to please the EU markets.
I was going to get this motor....but the inability to repair yourself is disgusting. Too much in our world is like this, I can't have a DIY bike conversion kit be locked down! Sad
@@HighVoltageKits I just watched your 72V ride with the toseven DM01. I am not saying i would be going 72vv right away, but would you say the torque sensing on that motor is good enough? It's like half the price of the photon!
Riding as fast as shown in this video, its no wonder that non-eBike riders, pedestrians and law enforcement dislike eBikers so much. All the new legislation we are seeing are directly related to eBikes speeding on roads and on bike trails. Soon ALL e-bikes will all be limited to 18 mph. Just because you can does not mean you should. Give it some thought and wear a GOOD helmet.
Anyone who is fit can ride a pedal bike faster than the stated laws and they are not being penalized. Anyone who is unfit can ride a bike down the hill where I hit 60kph just as fast if they wanted to. Legally as well. I dunno how far you watched into it but as soon as I hit mutli use paths the speed came right off. I have never put a pedestrian at risk using my bike and never intend to. That has nothing to do with legislation its just being a good rider. There are plenty of assholes driving cars. The only difference is that we are not restricting cars to 100kph because of the actions of a minority. I dunno why when its acceptable to drive a car that can do 200mph in a school zone its not ok to have an ebike that is powerful enough to mix with traffic safely at 50kph and go uphills at a decent pace. Thanks for your concern regarding my safety. I wear a full face, reflective gear and ride defensively. Cheers
Count me as one of those that don't like long videos of people talking but your idea to use a voice over paired with this excellent touring video of your area had me captivated! It helped to keep me entertained while i listened to you. Having your bike display kept me intrigued as far as your ebike performance as you rode around, especially seeing you reach such high speeds (that I would never dare attempt)! Thank you, again!
You are most welcome and glad you liked the video. I am lucky I have lots of attractive places to ride. Cheers
Many thanks for this brilliant review / guide. The unbiased advice you give, based on your wide knowledge and experience, is invaluable to anyone considering a DIY build. A great piece of work!😊
Much appreciated! Thanks
A year ago I fitted a Photon to a cheap old Marin full-sus MTB for exercise purposes, new cassette and new brakes, and now I weigh 25kg/55lb less! Agree with your review points. Had to put the 48V 20Ah battery on a saddle-stem-mounted rear rack which leaves space for a mid-mounted kiddie seat for my 5YO grandson! I can ride pedal assist for 2-3 hours, maybe 35-40 miles, without getting tired, with no sore backside and still have more than 50% battery left. 😀
Awesome build. Glad it’s working for you!
Your review was a polished piece of work. Being an owner of a photon I agreed with everything you covered. Especially the concern about serviceability. With the current supply issues I worry about the need to send in for repair. If it is taking months to fulfill new orders will parts be available for quick turnaround if service is required.
The only issue I have encountered is getting the brake sensors working. You can order a cable that includes a pair of magnetic sensors that uses a small magnet mounted to the brake lever. I just couldn't get it to work. So I opted to go with new integrated brake levers with built in switch cutoff. Again the three pin connector is not compatible with most master levers. I finally gave up and removed the extra cables .
Another thing I would like is shift sensors. In 2000watt mode my cassette is taking a beating when shifting.
Because of the high torque I find I primarily ride in 7, 8th and 9th gear. Never a need to for the lower gears. I am shopping for a more robust cassette as I pretty much killed 9th. Jumps over the teeth under high demand.
But that's a problem I really like. The response and torque are very good.
I also very much agree with your assessment of the torque sensor. It is as good as my bosch motor on my 12 thousand dollar reise and muller homage. Bosch has a superb torque sensor but the photon's is adjustable in a variety of ways to custom tune the feel.
The adjustment of the riding profile using the phone app is remarkable. I strongly wish I could set different profiles or at least be able to save a profile. Once I accidentally reset the app and lost an hours worth of custom settings. There is over 30 custom settings from throttle to torque to battery management to set. Out of the box it works nice. You do have to set your battery voltage and low cut-off.
A word of advice in selecting a proper battery. You need to buy a premium battery that is capable of sustained 40amp output. The photon can use 52 volt 40amp output. I use a 52v battery rated at 20ah. My full charge is 58v.. I put 48 miles of mostly throttle and quite a bit of high speed runs and only drained it down to 52v. Super impressed.
I never hear it run.
I love this motor.
Thanks for the comment. The brake thing sounds pretty frustrating. I tend to pedal lightly when shifting gears. There is not a point on the harness for a gear cutoff but I think you can add one by using the brake cuttoff and either an extension or wire it in higher up. Check the pin out though as it might not be the same as the one from Bafang. Another thing you could try is to have the power ramp up slower on the pedal assist. This would give more time to shift with lower power. Worth a shot. Cheers
@@HighVoltageKits Alternatively but also costly would be to go with an internal gear hub like a Rohloff as you can stop pedaling and shift gears.
I'm planning on building an e-bike with this motor and definitely using a IGH.
A SCHWINN IGH run about 200 bucks
Great, comprehensive and considered review, I think you covered pretty much everything very well. !00% in agreement about the target market - that's me exactly.
Thanks! Much appreciated.
Thank you for the Photon.
Would greatly appreciate more detailed video on the CYC app. Both Bluetooth and Ride Control apps.
In, as you alluded to, a setting and result format.
Once again, thank you.
You are welcome. I will see what I can fit in the next little while.
Thank you so much for your time and effort that you put into making this video. I can't imagine a better, more concise or informative video being made on the subject. You really are a blessing for the community!
Thanks for the kind words. Very much appreciated.
I don't know if you read your comments or not, but CYC is setting up a "repair/warranty" facility in Austin, Texas. This should be this year if what Jon told me is correct. That will cut down on any shipping times if work needs to be done on your Photon. As a side note, CYC is coming out with a BBSHD killer called the Proton, and it can do 3000 watts. I'm guessing that will make you happy.
Yeah I heard about something being setup in Texas. It would be a good move. Dealers will struggle with the workload. I terms of the Proton. We will see. It's not much bigger than the Photon so it won't take 3kw for long in the same way that the Photon can't do more than 750 sustained in hot weather. It's good to have these motors though. It's definitely stired things up. Bafang finally put a ts in the bbshd and rumor of the 02. There are also new motors from To7 and a company called truck run. Should be a good year!
Holy community interaction Batman!
Great Review Capt!
Thanks Dave. Appreciated the support.
Converted a Trek Marlin 5 2022 (Large frame) with this motor (38t chainring). 200 lbs rider nearly 60 years old. US profile loaded in race mode, assist lvl 1= barely getting any workout, like 1 of 10. Battery seems to like it because it's still at 51% (50.6V), 107 kms later (52V 17.5AH Samsung 35E cells) Now on Canada preset, street mode, for legality and will see how far I go.
Sounds like a great build. Its nice that you can use those cells on it as you get the extra capacity for less overall battery size and weight. That's impressive range. I think stock that its pulling 250watts at level one but you can check that in the ride app. Cheers
I'm generally in agreement with your comments, but would point out that wide range rear 50-10 cassettes are very often used with 1x front chainrings, and on Boost frames 34T may be the max size that will fit.
Good point. I will do some investigating. I will see if I can get something to fit. Not a priority though.
Since 12 speed 50-10 cassettes have large gear steps then there is no other choice but to use modified close ration 34-12 cassete and 42t chainring for selecting comfortable cadence on flats and false flats while riding with the motor turned off for less noise and more natural feeling, reserving the motor for hills only. For really steep hills using walk assist mode is another option since on long tours occasional walking is good for leg recovery. Short commutes with steep hills aren't ridable in this case. Future option for 2x chainring would be needed since I'm not sure if somehow bolting on smaller chainring would be possible due to reports of original 34t chainring having threads instead of splines which get stripped.
@HighVoltageKits the CYC 34T chainring fits perfectly, with perfect chainline and maybe 2mm of clearance on my example. The issue is that Boost frames have a slightly wide rear thru axle and with a narrow BB the rear stays have to flare out to accommodate the rear tire. That step out conflicts with using larger chainrings, these bikes were never intended for them. The default 38T chainring isn't always an option so builders should be aware of this.
@uvwuvw-ol3fg not my experience at all. Almost all decent trail and enduro MTBs have Boost frames and 1x BBs and are intended to be used with small 30-34T chainrings. On these bikes you aren't as interested in maintaining cadence because the terrain determines your speed, so gear spacing does not matter. Additionally there tends to be larger spacing in the lower gears because your focus is just getting up that hill. No need to get off and walk, with the Photon my bike can get up any hill I can keep traction on. In general these bikes are not intended for road use or touring and are probably wasted if used that way.
@uvwuvw-ol3fg can you clarify the last part of your comment? My 34T chainring has the same splines as the others so I must be misunderstanding your comment.
Hey, just discovered this new project called freebeat Morph 2-in-1 e-Bike after watching your video. Gotta say, I'm impressed by the outstanding features this e-bike offers. The fact that it can be charged indoors is a game-changer! The brushless 750W motor and 80Nm torque ensure a powerful and exhilarating ride. The 80mm front suspension and puncture-resistant fat tires guarantee a smooth journey on any terrain. Plus, the Smart Saddle Detection+ feature and the ability to convert calories into CO2-free miles really caught my attention. Definitely putting my support behind this project! Keep up the great work!
What is unique about the bike that let's you charge it more safely than any other ebike inside?
very interesting and useful review, covering basically all the questions i have about the photon. tremendously informative. would in addition really appreciate appreciate your thoughts on how the cyc photon compares to the other torque sensing mid drive currently available, the tsdz2, especially with osf, and what in the build quality, anticipated reliability, and user experience, might induce a rider to pay the nearly doubled price? as a standalone yours is truly a superlative review and very helpful. i just wondered if, given the torque sensor capabilties of the photon and tsdz2, a comparison of those motors might be useful. many many thanks, jeff
I have never ridden the Tong Shen but its taking a battering on the forums. Very easy to break. Its very cheap but not by any means reliable. There are a bunch of new TS motors this year though so it may well be a comparison that gets easier later this year. Right now its the only thing in its category. It is quite expensive though.
Very informative... was on the fence between the Pro and Photon, but now going with Photon based on ALL that I have learned from watching all 31:10 of this video 😆. Thanks for taking the time for such detail
Thanks for making it to the end. There have been a few issues with the Photon which I did a video on my experiences. But that it a CYC thing in general. Modern design but not always the most reliable.
Here's an idea... how about installing some grease fittings so you can add a little new grease in
At this stage I just want it to work lol. The only issue with this idea is the old stuff is left in there. I’d prefer they just made the thing more serviceable to start with.
Heyyy!!! My Hometown. Pulling onto Columbia like that caught me off guard.
Lol. It's a pretty nice place to ride
Fantastic and exhaustive video. As an older former road rider I have been disappointed with the majority of e-bikes on offer for exactly the reasons you cite in this video. I would love an e-bike that rides like a bike but has the capability to allow weak riders to ride with fully doped pros. It might even be interesting to have endurance races with mixed fields where the balance of weight / power / battery / physiology all come into play in covering a given course in a winning time. I think it would be cool to resurrect Paris Brussels Paris with mixed fields of pros & ebikes. Now that I look like one of the old duffers who used to ride the dernies, maybe I could even participate with a powerful enough e-bike.
It's a really nice feel to ride and pedal like I used to again. I'll be able to keep up with the kids!
John,
I removed my most recent comment because of your fair response. I wrote a comparison of the Bafang mid drive to the new Photon only highlighting some of the considerations in my original post. I couldn't understand why it was deleted because I thought it was even handed.
If you said you didn't delete it, I take you at your word.
Best to let others decide what is best for them.
Good luck in all your R&D efforts and safe riding to those that love high performance ebikes. Great to have competition in the market place that only refines options available to the consumer.
I appreciate that Luke. I actually found the comment which had been filtered out for some reason along with replies to it by the TH-cam algorithm. I usually check messages set to review by YT and it had slipped my mind. Apologies about that. It seems to block some comments for no real reason at times. I could see nothing wrong with it. I generally try to reply to all comments I get. Thanks for the kind words of support.
Yea, I think this video has pushed me over the edge. Going to get one for my 2021 stumpjumper. Not sure on battery mount though.
The battery is always the hard thing to get right with the DH bikes. There is not usually much of a triangle space to work with. I think electrify bike has some compact options.
@@HighVoltageKits thanks, I’ll check them out.
Would you do the new mid drive Toseven DM01 and DM02 ?
There are some on the way. I have been working quietly with their Western representative. I should be getting information from Eurobike next week. Lots to be excited about there. I should have samples of the motors to play with in the near future. We will get one on the dyno and see what it can do!
Great review. I really would like to know if it can be disabled, so that opportunistic theft can be denied motor assist, maybe enabling the owner a small possibility of grabbing the bike before it's gone, probably forever. In any case, I'm thinking of using a small padlock around the chain to drag the chain off the sprocket, so he'd have to push it away...
There is not an anti theft like that built in unfortunately. The chain idea is good. You could also hide an airtag. Maybe a kill switch in there.
Thx.I thought I read in the online manual that there's a password function... doesn't explain what that's for. Wondering if there is there such a thing as an inline keyed switch for the battery cabling?
I have the DS103 display and it allows you to have a password. You have to first enter the default password 0000 and then you can set your own.
@@mattdeeney1169 Ahh thx, ok that might be where read it. My Photon is coming early July (was early June) and I did choose the DS103 display option.
@@Delton05 Nice. I’ve loved my Photon. It’s my first e-bike and it’s been so fun. I ordered another one for my wife’s bike!
This was exceptionally informative. I think this is the kit for me.
Thanks. Glad you enjoyed the video.
Great review! I can tell you put in the time ti learn about the motor and really get a feel for it. These motors are meant forDIY people, right? So why not make it repairable by the owners? You said they're gambling with that, and time will tell, but i think ultimately they're going to lose. From what I've read so far, their customer service does not seem to be on par with what you would expect from a successful warranty/repair service. I wasn't going to buy the photon anyways, but if i was considering it, that would deter me for sure. I'll stick to my HV BBSHD thank you very much 😉
Once you HV the motor it's just a beast! No besting that. I do think it's a gamble. Reputation is everything and in order to keep that you would need rapid turnaround on repairs. That means dedication of staff and resources away from sales. I think they have time to put it right. But if next year people are waiting months to get a regrease or for repairs... If they sell enough then there would be a case for local businesses to take on repair. It will take significant planning and organization.
@@HighVoltageKits that's kind of my point. I just don't see CYC being able to roll out a repair program like that, but we will see! And you're right- no besting it 😁
This is a really good review, so comprehensive.
I should probably stop recommending the bbs02 for a wham bam thank you mam conversion as the cadence sensor is pretty weak.
Thanks. The 02 can be had for much cheaper on Ali but the cadence based PAS is no where near as nice.
No you shouldn't. What you say about Bafang cadence sensing is simply untrue. Some will prefer it to any torque sensor. A BBS02 costs 1/2 of a CYC Photon motor, parts are ubiquitous, inexpensive and motors are easy to rebuild. Further, the jury is out on the Photon as to its reliability. Great review by John of this channel and thanks for that.
For many, for $200 more than the BBS02, the BBSHD I believe bang for buck is the best ebike motor in the industry. But for many the BBS02 is fine and can even take 35 amps for big miles with an aftermarket controller...perhaps even better than the Photon due to more limited armature mass aka heat sink.
Beauty of Bafang cadence sensing is their reliability compared to conventional torque sensors and their programmability. One can create great granularity with non linear power increments at lower power settings with the Bafang configuration tool. Because power relative to speed is an exponential function, one can program for much higher gradations of power assist at higher speed....and much smaller gradations at lower speeds.
I am not dissing the Photon. Competition is always good in the marketplace. The Photon however is a $1K motor. Many will prefer torque sensing. and therefore welcome the Photon, CYC finally creating a quiet motor. I come from a bike racing background. Cadence versus Torque sensing doesn't matter to me, likely because of what level rider I am. I can easily find the sweet spot of rider watt input to the bike relative to motor watt contribution and do so daily. I also ride to heart rate. For training, in some ways, cadence sensing is better because motor assist does not increase with human assist unlike torque sensing which provides a better workout for the rider at a given motor power level because the rider is pushing against a harder limit of motor assist.
In summary, the conversation is nuanced and not cut and dried. Right now I prefer to stick with the Bafang BBSHD and honestly the Photon because of its heat sensitivity and the power level and speed I prefer, I still believe for 'my usage' the BBSHD is a much better value proposition. Othes may feel different and good to have options like the Photon for others with a different usage model.
The video mentions Bafang Torque Sensor? Is this new? I was only aware of the cadence sensor.
Awsome review, thanks
You are most welcome
Great review Captain, very thorough. 👍
Cheers Monty!
Good review. One point that should be stressed is that even if thermally limited to ~750 watts that will allow most of us who are cyclists to spin out at top speed allowed by our bike's gearing, other than for short bursts at very high pedaling RPM as you noted. That surely was one factor that CYC considered in their motor design choices. This doesn't appeal to the throttle jockeys who want to go that fast all day without pedaling but that is not the target user group for Photon.
I am about 300 miles into my 1 month old Photon on an old Cannondale F1000 hardtail set up for street and path riding and I am loving it. No issues so far except a display that won't allow me to change wheel size to match what I have on my bike, so the data it shows are off. The serviceability issue has me worried as I am usually a total DIY'er for all things mechanical. Hopefully this will change going forward or at least the authorized CYC service will turn out to be fast and reasonably cheap. I have a second Photon on order for another build which will be a very nice bike indeed.... ti frame gravel bike. I'd have liked that to be a Proton but have no idea when that will be offered... maybe I'll have to upgrade when it comes available.
You make very good points. I think it is very well made for its target market. Funny why the display won't let you change that. Are you using the larger one or the SW102?
@@HighVoltageKits I have SW102. Here is a video short showing the problem. The display is just stuck on 29. th-cam.com/users/shortsNY_idODSkBE
Loads of helpful info as usual. Many thanks
You are welcome!
Another comment I'll add is that I had the same experience with the cranks - my left one worked loose. We're probably not the only ones this has happened to.
I think it was the left that was with mine as well. It seems like a pretty common thing. Something to keep in mind like retorquing wheel nuts after 100kms
this also happened to me - left non-drive crank came use.
@wendyatkinson1 I think there must be some flex and that is the side that will work loose. I added blue loctite the pre-applied thread lock might not be working well enough. Definitely something to monitor.
A brilliant review, all the stuff I wanted to know, thanks.
You are very welcome. Glad it was helpful!
i live in austria, i got the bbshd for 550€ on pswpower, and the photon would cost me 1300€ on fasterbikes, or around 1200€ if i order directl on cyc, so for me its def not a replacement
Yeah you can definitely get them cheaper from the direct China places. The ebike places factor in things like warranty which will be harder to get. Thats a really good price though. Not seen one that low for a while.
Best video I've seen on the CYC Photon, and I've watched many so far.
Thanks Larry! Appreciate the kind words.
@@HighVoltageKits What do you know about CYC addressing the heat dissipation problem with the Photon? It runs hot as hell.
Thanks for the thorough, all things considered review. I think it's great that Bafang has some competition, but for now I remain in the BBSHD camp as its hot most of the year where I ride, and a cherished reward for my daily cardio work out includes some exciting pinned throttle action. Sadly, I don't think much can be done to lighten a HD, big magnets and a strong copper rich field inevitably lead to higher mass. I don't have a big problem with the cadence PAS either now that it is dialed to my needs. After seeing some promo materials for the X1 Proton, I have some concerns that it may be the noisy X1 motor, and it seems to hang far low. For me the search continues for creating a sub 22Kg mid-travel trail ripper with 48v/17.5 Ah that has enough torque to pull 50kph plus on the intertidal beaches as well. But in the meantime, I'm having a ball.
You are welcome. There will always be a place for the BBSHD! Its that mass that makes it work to a large extent as all the heat can soak into it. Once dialed cadence based PAS can be pretty nice as well. For on beaches you need fat tires I would think. What about one of the Super 73 style frames. You probably want Chromalloy if possible. What is the budget. If there are no limits you could get one of those Titanium fatbike frames! I would love one of those one day! I am not sure beaches would be good with the two chains of the CYC. There is also salt to consider which plays havock with mechanicals. Lots of good fenders and regular greasing / spraying off. That sounds like a challenging build. I doubt there is anything comercial. You are welcome on our discord group. We have a pimp my ride section where I saw a cool ebike recently that had a surfboard rack on it! Cheers
Hey Voltage - Thanks for the awesome review. This was actually the reason I ended up putting a Photon on order!!
Quick question for you as I just finished installing the motor last night - should I expect a bit more resistance now when pedaling vs. when having no motor? I would not say I am seeing a ton more resistance now, but the pedals definitely do not spin freely either. Curious if I potentially tightened something too much like the spindle lock ring, but I backed it off and resistance was about the same.
I think there is an issue with the tolerance on the machining on the bearing cup for the non drive side. I have a video for this week to explain what I think is going on. But yeah its going to be a bit stiffer than with a cartridge bearing BB. It should not affect use as you have all that power though. I think they do need to fix it though.
I've been riding a converted Giant Farrago for about 3 years with an open-source firmware Tong Sheng TSDZ2 motor. Mostly street riding, some easy trails, moderately hilly terrain. It's been great so far - no mechanical issues, but I don't abuse it. 750 Watt motor, 52V battery. It has a similar motor construction and size as the Photon and the same heat issue. The open-source version allows for a lot of configuration. The torque sensor works well and provides a natural riding feel. Generally the heat is manageable and the conrtoller rarely has to reduce current except on very long steep hills (160F max before reduction). I'd love to try out the Photon but am wondering how much real-world improvement it would offer over the Tong Sheng. Has anybody out there used both?
I have not used the Tong Shen but I heard lots of stories. You likely did not encounter issues by not pushing it. There are some new motors coming out from TOSEVEN that are more in line with the Tong Shen. The Photon is a joy to ride. Especially unrestricted. Great torque sensor. It's longevity is unknown to some extent.
Yeah, the Tong Sheng has one plastic gear that's probably intended to act like a fuse to prevent damage to any of the other drive train components. I bought a spare but haven't had to use it yet. You can also replace the plastic gear with a metal gear. I'll tear it down this winter for a detailed evaluation of the bearings and gears, replacing anything that needs it. Parts are widely available. I'll probably buy the Photon to try out because it does seem more capable than the Tong Sheng. @@HighVoltageKits
Excellent review, thanks!
Cheers mate
Fantastic review and information, thank you 👍
You are welcome Stevo, Cheers
Fantastic Video Cap,,, 😁,,, y really Nailed in this Video 10/10👍💯😎 greatings DS 🇩🇪
Thanks DS, glad you enjoyed it.
Comprehensive information. Thanks.
Thanks!
Photon not being serviceable has stopped me buying one yet. I have needed to pull apart 3 ebike hub motors, and mid drives from what have read need some maintenance and repairs.
It will put some people off for sure. I think I will push to open mine up if I get any issues for science of course lol
Still on the original Cyclone 3k and I can't decide if these new generations are an upgrade or a downgrade. Maybe it's just a sign that I should start building a new bike. :)
Its always time to build a new bike!!!!
Chris,
Cyclone 3K is a very different motor from the new Photon. Word is there will be a high performance motor called the Proton which is based upon Photon design language....like a beefier version. Knock on bigger Cyclone motors...or I would own a bike with one...is the noise. CYC answered this concern with the Photon but it is a lower power offering. High RPM...just like the Sur-Ron and even high RPM hot rodded BBSHD exposes more noise of course because turning very RPM creates a resonance that sounds a bit like a shriek. For me, as a BBSHD lover, a higher performance version of the Photon maybe of greater interest.
If you are good with the noise signature of the larger CYC motors, they are dam good now that many of the early bugs have been resolved.
@@lukewalker1051 Thanks for this. I haven't been paying much attention to the new stuff because my old cyclone is still running perfectly, though a bit whiney sounding as they all are. One thing I definitely want is the newer software, the old BT app isn't very good at all. 3k is also more power than I need, by quite a bit, but I still love hitting the gas every time. :)
Always happy to come across another Cyclone 3K user. Over 5 years on mine and she's never let me down. Looks kinda clunky? Sure, but so much fun! It's the Millenium Falcon of ebikes! 😂 Wish SickBikeParts and Luna still sold them. Just glad I stocked up on parts - hope to keep her going for decades!
Is there any new information regarding to current production bottlenecks affecting shipping. Someone on endless sphere said there is some additional testing needed due to delay in controller supply. Not sure if this that's up to date or is it the same thing repeated from previous delay. Still for some shipping takes 4 weeks only and for others beyond 11 weeks. Others said they didn't receive any shipment confirmation, the motor suddenly just turned up one day without warning.
Eco Cycles has stock in USA. I think there are production delays. I have no inside info on anything.
@@HighVoltageKits Currently other European distributors say it's available in 45 working days, so there is no other choice but to take it as a true estimate.
Hello 👋, I plan remake my BBsHD to torque sensor , becouse that motor is serviceable , and 160N.m could filling great for torque, now I have idea how to do this , but may be you guys have some similar projects? Could be interesting looking how can do it more experience team . Anyway thank you for video , good luck
Check Eurobike this week. Supposed to be some BBSHD news.
would love to know how you can add a torque sensor on a bbshd!
Can you do a tutorial how to utilize the magnetic brake sensor kit to attach it to a relay to power a 12v brake light using an external 12v mini battery?
You need a replay that will take 5 volts on one side that you can wire the 12 volt into the other side. The just connect up the relay. There will be some trickery though as the relay will need to close when you activate the brake. The brake voltage is 5 volts close and then activated when it drops to less than one volt. Wheras the relay would need the opposite. I don't think I can commit to a video right now but its definitely the project that discord was made for. I suggest figure it out on there and we can then make a video later once there is more to go on.
Thanks for the Photon review. I would not buy it due to the repairability issue alone.
Appreciate the donation 🙏 It's going to put off a few people for sure.
@@HighVoltageKits Not putting me off, at all, mine coming in July.
I'm buying for the torque sensing, quietness, and more than adequate power and ease of switching to street mode. Your video reviews, High Voltage, sold me. Thank you.
You need to purchase everything at your LBS if serviceability/warranty repairs is your uppermost consideration. Very few high tech and compact items are servicable any longer. It is a replacement world my friend. We must thank Apple for that.
Does the engine have problems with the chain when starting?
Do you have to program the motor?
There is an app you can tweak it with but there are not that many changes you need to make. More adjust to what feels right. I have not had problems with the chain when starting.
I don't understand did you have a video of you installing this kit??? Newer heard of this kit, don't know anything about it... don't know where you got it...odd, never heard of grease in a electric motor...
Here is an installation link. I have had a warranty claim on it after 1000kms. th-cam.com/video/P1dkKFwUAYI/w-d-xo.html
If 55 km/h is difficult to maintain for a long time, what is the speed at which you can run for a long time while maintaining it in general?
I think it very much depends on conditions and how much human power you want to contribute in terms of how long. But 35-40kph should be something that is doable. The excased nature if the motor means that it struggles to cool even in winter.
Ya know, about the noise, my BBSHD seems quieter with the now Luna Eclipse (42t) than the Lekkie 40t. The Luna is much less resonant, deader than the thinner Lekkie. What’s a couple of ounces on an ebike ? And the the teeth are replaceable on the Luna at half the cost, and more, of a new chainring. Or you could replace with Chinese...but I digress...
Motor sounds more of a dull buzz compared to a faint whine.
Whatever, I must be.....?
That's interesting to hear. I have seen those Luna ones break fast as well. Sounds like you have your setup very well dialed in. Which is probably why it's quiet. Good job! Cheers
How do you feel about the splined bottom bracket on the CYC vs. the square taper all other brands have? Seems like a big benefit of CYC.
I'm not a serious enough cyclist to worry top much about splines and things like q factor. I talk about them because people want to know. I have square taper on the bbshd and isis on cyc. I have never had my cranks creak or come loose on either. But some people swear by one or the other. The issue with CYC for me has always been quality and reliability.
Can you tell if this motor would fit on a bike with ISCG 03 mounting holes on the frame?
I think people generally have to grind those off to fit a mid drive. You are welcome to post on our Discord with frame photos etc.
I don't think that set up is better than a Fabulous Road Warrior X2 with a 60V 24 ah system and dual 750 watt motors cranking out 200 Nm of torque. Climb up mountains and rest at high speeds of 65 kph not even pedaling. But if you enjoy pedaling the Road Warrior has a torque sensor system also. Under $3k USD.
That's a pretty bold claim to suggest that 3 grands worth of prebuilt bike is better than using a Photon kit and battery with a high spec donor bike! Are you a representative from the company? If you want to send me a dual drive bike I will be happy to put it through its paces on the terrain around here. The bike I built has Shimano XT brakes with a 203 rotor on the front. It has Shimano air suspension on the front and a seat suspension. It has a light but very strong frame from Salsa. The rear mech is SRAM x9. The wheels and Hub are DT Swiss which is pretty much the gold standard. Let me know if you are interested. Happy to do a comparison.
Strange, i had the same issue with my traditional throttle versus the one that the Sine Wave KT controllers require - quite bizarre I hope I have not burned anything sigh
Post it on discord maybe?
i want to buy one but people on forums cant get past the fact that im putting it on a $300 bike to answer questions haha. i get it, but is it really that bad to use it on a relatively cheap bike? its only temporary until i get something better. im done showing up to work soaked ;n
Do what you want, there is nothing wrong with using what you have. You can always swap the motor onto a different bike. You are welcome to join our discord community. highvoltagekits.com/discord
I really like this motor and I've commented before but I plan on buying one some time in the future. I bought a used bike for the conversion, a 2019 Trek Marlin 7 but I'm having trouble figuring out gearing. It has a max chainring of 32t recommended for 1x but I'm trying out a 40t. I can use the granny gears but it makes noise mostly on the chainring when in the biggest 2 granny gears on the cassette. Chainring is narrow wide and seems like a good recreation of what it will look like with the photon but I'm concerned that I will damage the chain/chainring and cassette with this terrible chain line. Are there any mountain bikes that I can put a 40t chainring on that will have a good chainline even through all the granny gears? I bought a box components three prime 9 groupset (11-50t cassette) and I'm hoping that might help (maybe I can rearrange the cassette?). Any recommendations are appreciated.
Sorry I missed this. Maybe post this on our Discord. It's free to join. You will likely get more advice there. You can also post pictures which will help a lot.
Thanks for the great review and footage! One question: CYC claims there's very little rolling resistance from the motor when it's off. My BBSHD was pointless to pedal with a flat battery. Can you confirm the Photon is easy to pedal without power?
No it sucks as much as the bbshd. Maybe a bit less but not much.
Will I experience noticeable drag pedaling with the assist off? On hills, I'm pushing my pulse rate too high for my 77 years. So I would like a boost only on the steep climbs. I can buy a small battery to keep the weight down. The bike will be a 21 lb cross bike.
Yes there is drag. The way around is to have it so that level 1 is just enough to overcome it. Say 25 watts of power. Then you can have a couple of other levels. Each level can be configured so maybe a 250 watts for moderate hills and a 500 for steep hills. There is an option to have a road and offroad so you could also then have one that is set even higher if you even found yourself totally out of gas or injured and needed to get home. It's a great motor for keeping you going riding for longer. Although the long term reliability of it is a bit questionable based on my current experience. I will update on that and you can find more information if you look at my video history.
What about the break sensor option when you go to order the photon? Is the brake sensor necessary? Why not or why would you order the break sensor?
I think its not needed. The sensor is very responsive to when you stop pedaling and it can be adjusted as needed. If you use the brake sensor you cut power. The same with the gear sensor. If you change gear and pedal lightly it will change very smoothly. Just like on a normal bike when you would do the same. I have not missed a brake cut off and I like that there is less clutter on the bars.
Great video, have you any update on durability/reliability?
Would be suitable on an old 700c road bike?
I think it would. I was going to do a follow up. I have hit problems though. I'll do a full update when I learn more. th-cam.com/video/jnloLVfKxGw/w-d-xo.html
If you only ran this in the normal 750 W mode do you think it would last a long time?
Great review.
Can the chain ring be adjusted with spacers?? to change the chain line if it was being used with a rohloff rear hub?
Thanks
The motor can be spaced a bit. The chain ring no. Its locked in the one place by design.
@@HighVoltageKits Thanks for the response.
Just joined
Much appreciated. Welcome
Great review but still on the fence, for my fat bike
Thanks! There should be lots more cool stuff at Eurobike this year!
I live in Colorado so this motor will heat up pretty quickly so I'm going to pass on buying this one. Wish they had addressed the heating issues.
It does but at that point you have a 600-750 watt motor. So it depends on the kind of riding you will be doing. If you need more than that power assist for your rides continuously then its probably not the best option. They will have a more powerful Proton out so potentially that one will be able to sustain higher power continuously.
Hi, where is the motor temperature measured from? inside the motor or on the outer case?.... I have got a bbshd up to 55°C on the outer case and was wondering how much heat can it take before it burns out. any ideas?
It's from inside right on the rotor coils.
Thanks for this review. I've killed/cooked a couple of TSDZ2 s due to climbing 500m over 15k commute with average gradients of 5 to 7% with ramps reaching 20% depending on route. In summer will have temps in the mid 30s... Though I won't go the 20% ramp route those days. I've ridden Shimano, Yamaha and Bosch motors and I don't really need or want more power than they provide but I would like to adjust speed limits. I don't use a throttle. Would this motor fit this criteria?
With those conditions and temps based on what I have seen here with mine in similar you will throttle the motor pretty fast if you run it unrestricted. At 750 watts of assist though it should be able to maintain that level of power. The longevity of the motor is not guaranteed as it is a new product although it feels well made. I also have some videos about some new motors from TOSEVEN which are also Torque sensing. They could be really good if they iron out some of the kinks.
@@HighVoltageKits I'm watching reviews of the ToSeven too, the 02 is of interest to me... I prefer the idea of the lighter motor as long as it couples with my 48v batteries. Thanks for your time and work.
how many assist levels are there? on display screen looked like nine? (there were nine bars, number fluctuating throughout the video.) if there are nine assist levels, is rider able to program desired motor assistance in each assist level? on endless sphere discussion is that in reality there are only three levels, and that choosing to have more than those three simply results in duplicate motor assist as you work your way through the nine -- so that from the nine you get only three assist levels, the rest being dupes of those three. great video. i've watched many times and each time pick up something new.
Appreciate the kind words. Thanks. There are three. That's just the way they did the graphic. You can specify each of these levels for example 250,750 and 1500 (if unrestricted). You are right tho its kind of confusing. I am not aware of a way to make it to 9 levels and if there is then it probably does do that and duplicate it. The app only has three and there is no way to make it more. In reality its all you need as its a torque system. 9 levels of power is like a hangover from magnet based cadence sensors.
Thank you for the excellent video. Can the photon be used with a 72v battery ?
You are welcome. Its 36-52 volts only. The speed at the cranks would be too high at 72 volts.
@@HighVoltageKits thanks! So you used a 52v for your testing? If you legs are maxed out on cadence, can the throttle and motor make the bike go faster? If you selected the 38T chainring and 11 to 32 cassette for example, and using your legs you could reach say for example 50kmph , is the motor able to rev higher than the chainring and pedals? Another way of explaining what I am saying is , is the motor able to power the bike without the pedals moving?
Thanks very much
hey boss. im looking to mount one of these to a 2017 santa cruz chameleon for single track riding. sustained climbs (~1 hour) followed by downhill. i live in ca so mild climate. would heat be an issue for this application?
I think you will be fine as long as you do not expect more than 750-1000 watts sustained.
nope id be content with the 750 at 52v@@HighVoltageKits
My current bike has a single 30t main sprocket. Would you recommend going with the 34t to keep the geometry as close as possible?
Depends on hills. Well and top speed. If you think you won't ride very steep stuff I'd go a bit higher for a more comfortable cadence at higher speeds. If you don't want much speed it will be fine.
Not sure if it's the best way, but there are adapters that able you to fit larger cassettes like 42T in the back.
Was almost sure going to buy a Photon.. just because its not from china.. but now that you mentioned repairability.. but then again bafang is locking down their motors, so something newer than the bbshd is out of discussion hmm
There will be some more options soon. I am being sent some to play with.
where are you? beautiful place.
Kamloops BC in Canada
As an outrunner, might be a good candidate for statorade?
I'm not 100% sure how it would work with this. I would have thought cyc would have it like that from stock. I can ask them though.
I was thinking the same thing. Grin (and probably others as well) sells the oil. If I remember correctly the oil is magnetic and transfers the heat to the outer heat sink.
About the gearing...and how does 750 watt do 40 something mph ! Tall gears I guess AND pedaling ? The gearing, I run a S.A. 3 speed, and it’s in 2nd (direct drive) 98% of the time. That’s a 42t to a 17t cog. And it does 30mph on flat ground with a fresh battery. Then it drops to 28 and stays there. 52v 20ah
Bike weighs 60lbs with dropper and Maxxis DHF’s.
1500 watts. The 750 is the rated power. In hot weather it throttles to this level tho
Can you travel on an airline with this battery?
I very much doubt it.
I haven't seen a link of your install. Did you do one? I have installed a photon on my Sunseeker Fat Tad . Still working out some issues
I found your install video. Thanks for your excellent presentation. Where did you find the blue anodized socket and the chain whip? Great tools!
The chain whip I got from Amazon and the socket is from Park Tool. They make the gold standard of bike tools although can be expensive.
bafang ultra all the way
Get the UART version. Good motor though.
I.m also a commuter doing around 40km back and forth from work. Does it make sense to get the cyc or an m620 for long distance commute with slight hills on the way? I'll be running mostly top speed all the time, I'm hoping any of these 2 can do 45+ km\h
Either of these will net you 45kph. The 620 has more power over a sustained period especially when its hot. If you are carrying much cargo. More power. It's bigger though and the torque sensor is not as good. The 620 is a mature platform and the cyc while more fancy is new and it's reliability is unproven outside of engineering tests. Let me know what you go for.
@@HighVoltageKits thanks for the input. I asked dengfu and they will be releasing a new frame in a few weeks. Which collides with the launch of the new m630 motor and the automatic IGH. I'm planning to use this pair
video location?!
Kamloops
Brada everything ,but not top speed ((( how come ? ....
71 on video ,so you think it can do 80 from hill ?
I think you could easily hit 80 down a hill. Up a hill the max is about 30 and with the gearing it does build heat. If you gear down you are going slower.
@@HighVoltageKits thanx man!!
@@HighVoltageKits and by the way! What a race was just minutes ago 🏁 amazing track in Canada 🇨🇦 👏 👌 🙌
Would you put this on your fat bike with only 52volt 16wh battery ? Or would you prefer your bbhsd with same battery?
I'm not I sure I understand the question. Sorry. Can you rephrase it.
@@HighVoltageKits you have your current fat bike set up with a bbhsd . Would you also recommend this photon with that type of bike. I am on the fence, which to use for my fat bike with 100mm bottom brkt.
Does the CYC system need a gear sensor? (less torque on bike chain when shifting into other gears)? And how does this system compare to the Bafang Mid Motors
Bafang stuff can tend to need one more. They are not my favorite things. I prefer a button or cutoff. Not missing one on the Photon
I'm 46 and I say fuck Transportation regulations. People need to get places! Paying yearly fees just to go to the grocery store or see a friend is wearing thin with free minded people. Here in America travel without molestation is an actual law. If you pay attention to cars around you and local laws it shouldn't matter what you are riding or driving to do you daily life. The levels of Governmental control are coming to an end in this world! I've been forced to ride bikes in my late 30's because of where I live, but thankfully I've always been an cyclist and can endure anything especially the bullshit Large governments oppose on common people just trying to live their lives. I mean shit, I finish vehicles for a living yet I'm not allowed to drive because of court payments. I run from the cops all the time on my bike. Aim it and go when the lights come on. I "obey" traffic laws but most police are out to get the people they are supposed to protect.
I have seen a few videos on the Audit channels with people standing their ground with the law against officious police officers. Its harder on a bike because you have no protection from them. I quite agree.
Where's a good place to get CYC motor parts,, besides CYC..
If you know the part number you can get a few things like bearings online. But for the most part it's just CYC.
whats your average watt-hour per kilometer ?
I think its about 12. Check this video with some range testing on it th-cam.com/video/hOlGnPOuVgg/w-d-xo.html
😃
Cheers Bob
In regards to Trek they are a massive rip off even if you arent buying a e-bike. Giant contracts for a lot of bike companies and then those other bike companies slam high prices on top. merida is a good well priced brand and Norco isnt shabby either, going to do a e bike conversion to my norco Fluid HT as yeah age and injuries are catching up.
Great bikes Norcos. Good luck with your build. You are welcome on our Discord
If you get stopped by the police.. What happens?
I would loose my car license for 6 months and have to pay a fine:(
If i loose my car license i loose my job.. :(
I don't think anyone would bother me on this bike where I live. You can restrict them for street legal power. It depends on where you live I guess. If you think you would lose your license for 6 months for riding an ebike you must live in a pretty harsh place.
@@HighVoltageKits I live in Norway:)
If you ride a e-scooter over 20km/h you will get a fine for $500 and the police will destroy your "unregistered vehicle".
:( it sucks long hairy donkey balls
Sending DIY motor to a periodic maintenance? I would rather send my whole bike to get serviced than removing and reinstalling the motor.
Yeah. If it becomes popular enough then perhaps there will be places more local you can do that. My big fear with it is that people will just use them till they become unrideable and then just chuck them.
@@HighVoltageKits The other risk is that there will be legislation that hits unservicable products. EU just passed law (votes 500 to 10) to prevent glued in smart phone batteries and there is a LOT of discussion against "self destructing" BMS systems that are hard to service are environmentally unsustainable. I don't think it's far off to think EU could pass a law that would prevent locally unservicable ebike motors to be sold. They could be very fast to act if an environmentally unsustainable product is in direct competition with EU produced one. Those that think this is a joke or no big deal can see the effects in few months when ALL major manufactures have made a smart phone with replacable battery just to please the EU markets.
I was going to get this motor....but the inability to repair yourself is disgusting. Too much in our world is like this, I can't have a DIY bike conversion kit be locked down! Sad
It’s hard to trouble shoot it. Mine is still not functioning after sending it in once already.
@@HighVoltageKits I just watched your 72V ride with the toseven DM01. I am not saying i would be going 72vv right away, but would you say the torque sensing on that motor is good enough? It's like half the price of the photon!
Riding as fast as shown in this video, its no wonder that non-eBike riders, pedestrians and law enforcement dislike eBikers so much. All the new legislation we are seeing are directly related to eBikes speeding on roads and on bike trails. Soon ALL e-bikes will all be limited to 18 mph. Just because you can does not mean you should. Give it some thought and wear a GOOD helmet.
Anyone who is fit can ride a pedal bike faster than the stated laws and they are not being penalized. Anyone who is unfit can ride a bike down the hill where I hit 60kph just as fast if they wanted to. Legally as well. I dunno how far you watched into it but as soon as I hit mutli use paths the speed came right off. I have never put a pedestrian at risk using my bike and never intend to. That has nothing to do with legislation its just being a good rider. There are plenty of assholes driving cars. The only difference is that we are not restricting cars to 100kph because of the actions of a minority. I dunno why when its acceptable to drive a car that can do 200mph in a school zone its not ok to have an ebike that is powerful enough to mix with traffic safely at 50kph and go uphills at a decent pace. Thanks for your concern regarding my safety. I wear a full face, reflective gear and ride defensively. Cheers