I installed a Gates kit on my STi. I was only aware of their reputation for quality and didn't look deeper at things. The tensioner failed at 800km and destroyed a rebuilt engine. Broke the piston in the number 4 cylinder. Gates stopped replying after I sent them photos of the tensioner. Unfortunately for me I had purchased the kit over a year earlier. I am now getting ready to install another engine and this one has a factory Subaru tensioner on it. Unless the Chinese have someone looking over their shoulder the whole time they will cut corners and make crap.
That's what I hear from people who have personally worked with Chinese manufacturing. They *can* make quality stuff, but like you said, you have to be constantly looking over their shoulder, almost to the point that you may as well just do the job yourself in order to get good stuff out of them. If you specify m12x1.25 threads, they'll create those threads, but they'll use the dullest, crappiest tap they have in the shop and a proper bolt won't thread in smoothly. Then you tell them that their threads suck, and they will reply with something along the lines of, "oh, you want CLEAN m12x1.25 threads? That'll cost you extra.
Happens all the time. As long as something in the box was made in Japan they say it's ok. Got a scoop shovel once. 60.00 metal scoop. Made in USA all over it. Sticker on scoop with big US flag and made in USA in big letters. Another cardboard piece on Handel saying the same. Turn over and its stamped CHINA. Called manufacturer. After hanging up on me 3 times, they finally said the wooden Handel was made in USA. And I'm sure the work was done by an automated lathe. Then boxed by another machine.
As an older guy who is NOT a mechanic I'm impressed with you, as a young man, having the awareness AND more importantly the integrity to refuse to install the parts in question. If it was an alternator belt or a spark plug maybe it wouldn't be as big a deal if there was a failure sometime down the road but with these timing belt related parts the potential damage that could be done could be catastrophic in terms of what that damage might cost to fix AND the length of time the vehicle could be disabled while going through repairs. I'm old school and grew up in a different time. If this exact scenario took place 50 years ago I'm almost certain that the Gates Rep would have stood on his head in a corner to make things right with you, the customer, in order not to lose you as a customer. The fact that he was so indifferent when you said you would never buy Gates stuff again is the kind of thing I can just never get used to because I've faced this type of thing countless times with different kinds of products and services I've had problems with in my later years. This VERY scenario is a good illustration and symptom of the problems this country faces and the thing is that as older people fade into the background and younger people raised in a different age take over "the system" they just fail to see the warning signs of a system that is starting to fail. Another sign is that most young people who read my post here will just dismiss it out of hand as the nonsense ramblings of an older person who is out of touch. They have no interest in anyone's time earned wisdom. They haven't been raised to see the value in it and as time passes they will pay a higher price because of this blindness then I ever will. It's just like the story of the boiled frog! (look it up.) Great video! Thank You!
Wonderful comment, I agree with you 100% that so much knowledge and human dignity is being lost!! The system will have to correct itself eventually, and many will suffer as a result!
It is an iteresting point but the reality is that the parts are no longer made in japan(where we want them to be made) because we trust japan more than china. (Gates cant get the parts from japan at a good price. But they cam make them probably almost as good or better acording to gates in china. So now you can pay 300 for the Aisin kit with genuine japanese parts or 200 for the gates kit with a few chinese swap outs that are suposed to be trust worthy.
Both customer services gave very bad service I don't know about other parts of the world but where I am info on the packaging is legally required to be accurate. I am an engineer and have had a number of instances where Chinese bearings have been responsible for significant downtime and a huge loss of revenue for my company that far outweighed the cheaper cost and in almost all cases they were passed off as higher quality items from other countries. I will draught a recommendation for group consideration that they cease to use Gates parts immediately. Many thanks Ivan for the heads up.
im not even mad that its made in china, but what pisses me off is that they wrote on the box where each individual part is made. thats false advertisement.
I have done a couple Subaru's with the Aisin Kits. With these kits the tensioners use the same bearings as OEM, the belt is a Mitsuboshi which is also OEM. the water pumps are Aisin brand and are nicer made than OEM, afterall Aisin is a OEM for toyota. Seriously worth checking out if your doing these...
One very important thing that needs to be said about the new Gates kits is regarding the belt tensioner. I have used the old "made in Japan" tensioners and OEM Subaru tensioners. Most of them have had bleed down issues before the engine has even run. We used to install an aluminum wedge to prevent the belt jumping during shipping. It should noted that I have built hundreds of Subaru engines over the last 20 years. For the record, there were more issues with the OEM tensioners than the Gates. While everyone seems to focus on the Chinese bearings in the pulleys, the fact that the new tensioners are Canadian made and are very robust design, with a much thicker plunger, and better seal design. When using the Canadian made tensioner, I am able to turn the engine backwards immediately after installation with no deflection. Best course is to replace the top right idler with OEM and just replace the bearings in the toothed idler with quality bearings (cheap at most supply houses).
2004 Subaru Forester, exactly what happened to me on a Gates kit. Belt jumped on the Gates tensioner turning it by hand. And it felt weak. I put the Subaru tensioner back on and it was fine to 280k miles.
Depending on how long Gates has been doing this, it could very likely be considered fraud; especially if Gates knew or had reason to have known that consumers relied on Gates to provide OE components. This could amount to a class-action suit if Gates purposefully kept making boxes for these kits which continued to have the marking of "made in Japan," although made elsewhere. If this video gets some traction, Gates might start scrambling.
As a DYI'er I was hearing Gates timing belt kits were not the quality they once where. I bought an Aisin timing belt kit with water pump for my 2011 Honda Odyssey recently and was very pleased.
Been installing Gate timing kits in customer's vehicles for years and haven't had any issues. The only things we get dealer are cam/crank seals and the hydraulic tensioners.
+Discretesignals The switch to Chinese parts in the Gates kits seems to be a recent change. As motoYam82 pointed out even the boxes still say "made in Japan" on them so Gates is still using up old packaging inventory. Have you installed a Gates kit recently?
I had a similar problem with a Cloyes timing chain kit several years back, which included a non-OEM tensioner assembly with a flawed design, which resulted in chain slap at idle. Unlike that Gates rep, the Cloyes tech took the time to troubleshoot with me to find the problem, then overnighted me an entire new kit at no cost, which he personally hand-picked and inspected prior to shipping. Needless to say, I buy a lot of Cloyes products whenever I can!
Thanks for taking the time to make this video. I have used Gates products and Aisen on my Subs....but no more Gates. That is false advertising, and underhanded, and deceptive like you stated in the video. I work on cars all the time and refuse to use Chinese products/parts even though some are decent. Gates get the picture....you lost a customer.
Yeah, they are also on my radar. I've heard a lot of good things. I will probably see if I can get it from Amazon. Their returns process is stupid easy.
Aisin FTW! I did SO MUCH research to figure out what brands would be good aftermarket/oem timing belt kits. You helped SO MUCH in making my decision to avoid Gates. I'm sorry you had to go through this and hats off to you for refusing to install questionable parts.
Great video, thanks for posting... What I have learned from this is that I need to work on my people skills, I think that I would have been rather toxic on the phone, which wouldn't have gotten me any further. I admire your composure.
A timing belt job is usually something you have time to plan ahead for. Order Subaru components from one of the dealers that have online store fronts. You will pay a little more, but for a job you may only do once or twice on the life of the car, its worth the extra.
Nice catch? its customer service problems like this that trash a once trusted reputation.... i will never buy a gates kit again because of how this man was treated and neither will any of my friends boo on you!!!
Hey Ivan, thanks for making all these videos! I was just about to buy a Gates kit for my Impreza but after seeing this I went with the Aisin TKF-001 kit instead. Haven't installed it yet but based on the contents I can recommend it. All parts have made in Japan stamped on them (except belt made in USA): Aisin WPF-002 water pump (includes gasket) NTN ATU106J-1 tensioner (This is identical to the one in your Gates kit. I can see from the video that although the castings don't match, the small part number written around the tensioner cylinder is the same between this one and the OEM one you took out) NSK ZA-59TB0515 toothed idler NSK ZA-60TB0693 smooth idler Koyo IF-001K smooth idler Mitsubishi CD304 belt Just sharing if anyone is wondering what else is available :)
I just did a 1998 Subaru Forester head gasket and replaced timing belt and tensioner also a couple of idler pulleys, I picked up the oem parts on ebay at a good price, I just made sure they had good pictures that showed the oem part numbers on them before ordering. You really have to do your research before ordering parts now days. Great Video
Thanks for posting this; luckily, I saw this early in my research to replace my timing belt and did more digging. I ended up getting an Aisin kit to avoid any shenanigans.
Great videos. I followed up with Gates today. They are now putting an "n" as last digit as in tck304n to denote all componenets made in japan. The "n" denoted kits do cost more. So the tck304n kit costs more than the tck304 kits. They said that the non "n" denoted kits have two of four components oem and two made in China.I think the oem components were the idle and one of the non toothed pulleys. So apparantly its not an sourcing isssue, its to have to price points on their kits.
Are the n kits available for sale? I've never seen one... EDIT: I just checked on RockAuto...sure enough there it is! I will be trying that one out next time :)
Installed a Gates timing belt kit in my son's 2006 Forester at 196,000 miles, because the tensioner had failed. The kit included everything except the water pump. Two weeks ago at 226,000, the car overheated, and my son pulled over and we checked it out. When we tried to start it, it sounded like it had a box of rocks banging around, so we assumed that the timing belt had failed and the pistons were hitting valves. We pulled the timing belt cover, and it turned out that the belt had not failed - one of the idler bearings (the one to the upper left of the crankshaft) had failed completely, the balls were all over the place, the bearing was all burned, and there were spots of burned belt on all of the other bearings. We were amazed that the belt had not snapped (and it had not slipped any teeth) - so I can't say anything negative about the Gates belt, but the bearings (they are Chinese) are obviously sub-standard. Anyway, after doing some TH-cam research, Mr. Subaru states that Aisin is the ONLY timing belt kit he can recommend - it has all Japanese parts. We got lucky, and I will NEVER buy another Gates kit. This could have cost several thousand dollars if the engine had been ruined.
if you started not buying chinese made parts for your cars then you will be off the road very soon , take your time go over new car available and find something not made in china
Great posting! You were too kind to the Gates & Rockauto customer service people. Thanks for pulling the curtain back on both Gates & Rockauto. I purchase from my my indie parts shop. You do pay more sometimes but they will try and match prices when they can. Personalized service of a human being wins every time when compared to the heartless phone customer service guy.
I work on lots of Subaru's and have been very suspicious of these kits . This is typical of Gates .The bait and switch technique is a time honored tradition in mass marketing . Gates has lost me as a customer as has NAPA for Japanese timing kits . Chinese bearings are crap .Do not install any Chinese bearings .Auto Zone pulls this as well with Subaru front wheel bearings claiming to warranty the bearings doe not include labor so the mechanic eats the loss for come back repairs . Thanks for posting this video exposing the fraud of these corporations with false advertising ! Ebay markets some all Japanese timing kits but beware of fraud there too.
The Rock Auto rep didn't understand the complaint. The fact is, the box lists all the components by part number. Those parts are then listed as made in Japan. Absolutely no ambiguity whatsoever. Mislabeled by Gates. They are trying to pass cheaper components in their "made in Japan" kits. Luckily you noticed.
They have been pulling this crap for awhile. I did a timing belt on a customer's car 2009 Impreza and didn't pay attention to this and installed it all with a new OEM pump I got from a Subaru dealer. Belt failed prematurely due to locked up bearing. Ruined the heads on the vehicle. Tried to first blame my customer for going to an unqualified tech who installed it wrong. So I e-mailed my copy of the receipt to them and the copy of my Subaru certifications (I am a legitimately certified Subaru tech). Then they tried to blame the break on the water pump because we didn't send it back with the claim. I then e-mailed them and confirmed the water pump was re-installed on the repaired engine and has been running fine without any issue since then. In the end, after I re-inspected the components and found some of the "OEM" components were made in China, I had to get pretty blunt with them. In the end we had to get a lawyer to get them to pay out the claim.
Wow man that really sucks! The Chinese bearing company "Taide" was established in 2001...so basically there has not been enough time to establish a reputation of quality for the aftermarket. Now if OEM suppliers get on board and start using those bearings in brand new vehicles and they last, then I might become a believer. Until then, it's too risky of an experiment to install unproven parts, especially those that can lead to catastrophic engine damage like in your case.
i just got this kit about a month ago for my womans 05 outback,,, i did the "air bleed" on the tensioner ,and so far, over 2000 miles and it hasnt gone slack or anything amiss,,,, everything seems to be in working order,,, altho i will post here again with an update if it would fail or have a problem
False advertising by Gates, it's good you recorded this. The only way to get their attention is to withhold your money. Find another source, and return their fraudulent product. If it were a dual cam, it wouldn't be a freewheeler, and losing a belt on an interference motor is not an option. Even though it's a single cam, I won't put my customer through that, the tow bill would exceed the cost of the kit.
Hi James, the 2.5L SOHC Subaru engine is indeed interference! That is why I would NEVER install these junky Gates components on a Subaru. My 1996 Mercury Mystique 2.0 DOHC on the other hand is a freewheeler, so no worries ;)
As of 2022: Gates kits currently ship with an "improved" tensioner - they have increased the diameter of the piston versus OEM so it aligns better with the part it pushes against. The one in my package is made in Canada and actually looks like a fairly quality part. Canadian bearing. Cogged pulley is the same Taide bearing Chinese part. Upper pulley is the same Taide bearing Chinese part. Lower pulley is a Canadian part with a Canadian bearing. Water pump is unknown. The packaging now lists a huge number of countries the non-belt parts may come from. The belt is still made in the US.
I agree the box is misleading and they should have slapped another sticker over the top rather than substituting parts. What a lot of people refuse to believe is that there are quality Chinese parts. The issue is that there's copious amounts of crap Chinese parts and it can be hard to distinguish between them, especially on a bearing. There's a couple options to consider in your case; slap the old parts on (would be my last choice), put on the new Chinese parts (I'd research the bearing manufacturer), or use the old parts but press in new quality bearings such as SKF. The last option is probably the best, you get know good tolerance parts with new quality bearings. The OEM pulleys are probably fine to re-use but at a point they will fail, maybe 3 belt changes? You don't want to risk smoking a belt because of that. If I used the Chinese parts, I'd probably bring the service interval sooner.
I agree with Nate here. Have you had a bad experience with this particular Chinese manufacturer of these bearings previously, Ivan? if so I understand, if not then I don't....not everything that is made in China is crap!
I'm late to the party but Nate has a good point. I used to work with a Chinese kid in the shop and he'd say the same thing because he'd get pissed about people saying "China makes crap." But Moto also makes a very good valid point about not wanting to risk it. It was good to see him call Gates out on it though. Hopefully more manufacturers start seeing things like what Moto did.
Gates give 60,000 miles as the most you want to use their kits. OEM is 100,000 Miles, The dealer told me they never replace the water pump unless it is leaking.
Since my Legacy has a "B" on the 4th digit of the VIN, to the Gates TCK307 was the correct kit. I just put one on tonight. In the Gates TCK-307: Belt - USA Upper Idler - Japan Lower Idler - Japan Toothed Idler - Japan Tensioner - Canada
When replacing your Subaru timing belt, Mitsuboshi belt and NTN bearings only if you're going to use aftermarket parts. Japanese made water pump, usually good. I highly recommend an Subaru thermostat or equivalent O.E. design style. Do all of them at once and you're good for another 105,000 miles. Plain and simple. I've been a Subaru tech. for 20 years. Original Equipment quality and a few bucks cheaper than what you get from the dealer.
HND HND I just did Toyota 1mzfe timing belt/water pump & got the mitsuboshi belt...glad I marked the original because the other one didn't have alignment marks...spent 20min counting teeth on the belt between alignment marks lol. All worked out fine (it was the right belt)...but will check the listing description more closely next time... even if it says OEM. :)
That's too bad. I've always liked gates hoses and belts but I'll be keeping an eye out from now on. Thanks for bringing that to our attention. It was nice to meet you at the meet up Ivan.
If you buy a box of Cheerios and it says Cheerios on the box and you open it to find Rice Crispies, you'd get your money back. You wouldn't have to call up Cheerios only to have them tell you they can't guarantee you will get Cheerios in the box, just that you'll get cereal.
I have had similar experience with gates timing belt kits. I am a toyota and Honda guy and I try and get Aisin kits as much as possible and I am always thrilled with the quality.
Unfortunately gates seems to be outsourcing alot of their parts. Even the accessory drive belts are made in Mexico now. Alot of the accessory belt drive tensioners are Chinese. They do not seem to be as quality as the USA parts (of course) Rock auto's service is going down the tubes too. I will not buy anything from them any longer.
I agree 110%, I've ran into several Gates and Rock Auto trash. Especially kits. Gates belts i still buy just because i get a good discount. Happy wrenching!!!
I ordered a Gates kit and did the install myself. The kit first off did not come with any gaskets(I blame Rock auto for this). The belt tensioner failed and I thought it was rod knock any my engine was toast. Luckily I just needed to replace the kit, so I got all OEM subaru parts instead. The accessory belts were the wrong widths as well.
I bought brake shoes etc for my dump run/Lowe's pickup truck from Rock Auto partially because there was a little American flag by the items indicating that it was American made stuff. ALL the boxes said "made in China". Yeah I put the stuff on, and haven't had any problems but I did feel ripped off. Somewhere down the road, my trusty, garage kept, daily driver '97 will be scheduled for the timing belt deal. Who can I trust? I can't absorb a trashed motor because of shambolic belt or tensioner. For instance, Moog is junk now. The lower ball joints have failed AGAIN on the previously mentioned truck! These lowers have led a pampered life! l You wouldn't think that buying parts for your car would be like a damn minefield! Is paying the high price of the dealership the only way to get reasonable quality stuff? Can I even trust the steelership anymore?
Well, thanks for the video! I received my Gates timing belt kit for $119 from Amazon yesterday for my Toyota. I saw your video yesterday and decided to file a return ( I chose reason not as described , I said the water pump was different, from what I read from reviews the Gates doesn’t have a weeping hole, so that wasn’t necessary untrue for my reason for the return, so I won’t be charged for shipping on the return) and spend the extra $37 and ordered the Aisin. So when it gets delivered tomorrow, UPS will be taking away the Gates kit. I have nothing really against the Chinese stuff, but if I wanted Chinese parts I would have ordered the off brand kit for $65. For Gates to use there name to sell an over priced kit is disgraceful, I know the whole kit wasn’t probably Chinese, but I didn’t even break the plastic to find out, your video was enough. Especially for parts like this, it’s not a good idea to take the cheap way out. Somethings are fine for playing the odds, for example if I were to buy a Chinese alternator for $50 rather than a non Chinese for $200, I would most likely get the Chinese. 2 MAIN THINGS TO CONSIDER when trying to save a buck, 1, how long will the job take to do (in my case hours), 2, what kind of damage could the part cause if it fails.
At least you did not have to push 1 for English. Seems to be a lot of that cheap parts swaping going on anymore . I believe they sourced the price , and not that real ones were not available . They had to know they were miss labeling it . I believe they knew they were being dishonest .
Happy to see someone has brought this to the attention of the public. My Gates parts for the same model vehicle failed after 18 months and 6, 000 miles. It cost $2000 to repair.
I installed a Gates TCK304 kit on my 02 Impreza engine. Idlers were Koyo & NSK. Tensioner was NTN. Within the first year and not too many miles I started the engine one morning and noticed an unusual vibration. Turned it off right away and decided to look at the timing belt. Timing had jumped a few teeth and I found the toothed NSK idler had collapsed and was slightly nicking the engine. Contacted Gates by email but never heard back. Warranty outside the US even for Canada - good luck. Aisin next time.
Impressed ROC actually called Gates but the attitude from both companies rankled me especially as the advertising on the box is clearly misleading. No apology from either company for wasting your time and money. You're more patient than me and that is an intended compliment
Was tempted to purchase another gates... After appardntly a tensioner failed and blew my 2007 legacy turbo... Thanks for posting this video... Saved me another headache...
Way to bust some chops. Made in China is not in any stretch OEM quality. Watch a Chinese car crash test and tell me that something Chinese made that looks okay is going to perform okay.
i put a gates kit in same car last year. i did not notice or even think of looking where it was made. the purchase decision for the gates was based on $ and reviews. the oem part from the factory new only lasted 6yrs. so i think where ever its made its got a shelf life, it wont last forever. but now i will definitely be on the look out for the small print made in china or wherever, especially if i am over paying for an oem part from the dealer.
In a world flooded with cheap shoddy Chinese copies the 'made in Japan' label is valued as a guarantee of quality. By misrepresenting its sources of supply Gates deserves to be kicked to the curb. Eric O at SMA made a recent video in which he paid top dollar for OEM bearings from a US car manufacturer only to find that he was supplied with stuff made in, you guessed it, China!
All the big three are buying from China and Ford was the first so the bailout is not relevant. Who will be the first to bring us a "Made in China car" will probably be Geely. Your bias regarding GM has clouded your mind and made you resistant to facts. We (the USA) buy from China because of costs and profits. ALL are guilty. Personally, I'm sick of all the junk (Chinese or otherwise) in the parts stores and the overpricing of parts from the auto manufacturers.
rvz77 so they make the parts in China, send them to japan to get packaged as a kit, so they can say the “kit” ( not the components of the kit) was made in Japan.??
i think you misunderstood my statement. I was s saying, just because all the ( chinese made) parts are put in a box in Japan and are ma few a lot there & shipped to the U.S does not constitute "made in Japan" . I don't know why you feel the need to "Horseshit" on me..
@@paulsz6194 sorry for not being clearer. I was agreeing with you. What you described sounds like a horseshit maneuver by Gates to find a cheaper alternative for sake of profit. I went with the Aisin kit. Stamped made in Japan parts.
Did you really expect those phone calls to go any different?? "Sure we'll refund your money in a week or two." But that doesn't help you when you have a customers car torn apart with no reputable local parts source to obtain an Aisin kit quickly. You were too nice to these half ass employees that didn't offer any kind of real resolution.
Putting a different country of origin is on the box downright deceptive. Thank you for the heads up I will never buy their products again. The second guy you spoke to on the phone also had an attitude issue but you are a gentleman, my New York temper would not have been as cordial.Thank you for the great info.I wish I had a mechanic as good as you close by.
few days ago I put in INAS Subaru timing belt kit (Belt was made in Slovenia and Pulleys in Japan)... so much whine and whistle that i thought i have installed a turbo charger by mistake. replaced it with OEM and all problems went away. not buying any aftermarket stuff ever again.
When aftermarket manufacturers can b sued is when the quality will increase. iPhones r made in China and they r the best in the world. They make what u specify. Notice the China part had the Gates logo. Not the tensioner casting but the bearing. Try buying any cam or crank sensor from Standard. IF THEY WORK AT ALL U R LUCKY. OEM works perfect all the time.. How much did the faulty ignition switches cost GM. Ya think the Ceo noticed a few billion? Congress will not hold aftermarket feet to the fire. Takata's feet r burning. If channels with 50,000 subscribers get on this and talk about it at a meet up. And everybody starts refusing to buy the junk things might change. Plaintiff attorneys might smell some blood if a few people die from stalls on the freeway. But right now quality is racing to the bottom.. U get what pay for. That's not even true anymore
Some things to ponder... I'm old enough to remember when "Made in Japan" was an item to stay far away from...Like the first Honda I saw at a local Ford dealer... The exhaust manifold was even rough from being sand cast... And when this "Honda" hit a berm the front end parts were NOT available for nine months ... The first attempts by KIA in the US market were lousy but then came their second attempts (KIA Spectras) showed that they were able to produce a great quality car... My family owns 3 KIA Spectras (2006~2009) and various Hyundais (1 Tiburon, 1 Accent, 2 Sedonas) and in my 67 years I have never had a better car brand.... I CAN'T say that about the numerous US cars I have owned over the years Let's take TVs... Toshibas, Sonys , Hitachis, Sanyos, Panasonics are ALL now made in China or South Korea.... So the "name brands" are not what they represent in the names.... I'm wearing shoes that I found that were made in Vietnam...(our deadly foe in the 60s and 70s)... My very reliable 10 year old "Toshiba" laptop was also made in China.... It's a fact of life that today's market is a "Global" one... I'd bet that the Subaru you are working on has a fairy high amount of Chinese parts that were used in it's original assembly.... Yes... some items coming out of China are junk....BUT....some parts meet or exceed tough ISO 9004 specs.... BTW.... China has been portrayed as "outside" of Asia... Last time I checked it is a great portion of it.... I'm not saying that GATES or Rockauto are correct in their representation of the products that they sell but can any of you know or can state that these parts are truly defective? Only a standards testing lab can.... Gates was wrong in mislabelling...but even that was probably from boxes all ready printed and in inventory at the time of packing.... Yes...we should be wary of products from emerging countries but the "brand name" on the box or product should offer some sense of security.... You might ask GATES if they have quality checked these parts... Just trying to be fair.... Dave
What does iPhone or Apple have to do with any of this? FWIW my "utter garbage" 9 year old iphone still works, is used daily, and the battery still holds a day or better worth of charge. It's never been to any repair shop, not even once. So what you call garbage, I call quality to live up to.
it's luck, nothing more. i had my iphone 3gs to the end of his possible life. swiched to new iphone and it died after 3 months of normal use. Switched to samsung... so far 2 years and it's holding. so it's all about Quality control and luck :)
Bill Rimmer I take that challenge. iPhone isn't the best. The camera is, but the rest of it is garbage. Camera made in Japan, rest of the device made in China.
Only use OEM parts on a Subaru. That Red-colored lower idler pulley will be the first to go bad, its got a much smaller bearing in it than the upper idler pulley. so I always swap out the lower idler pulley with a 2nd new upper idler pulley.
There is the lying "can't" "We can't guarantee that" -- Oh yes you can; you DONT WANT TO. Why is it that so often lies are told in business: "We Can't" when it is "We don't want to"?
Same experience on Gates Kit for the Subaru Forester XT 2006 Kit Number "TCK328" (Do not buy it). I am doing a Headgasket job on my Forester 2006 (right now Juli 2019), and because of your video I double checked the Pulleys from Gates I have Installed 2 years ago/ 30-40.000 KM ago Two Wheels have sounds in the wheel bearing when you wiggle it, and the one wheel is worn out, and don't turn around easy any more, and has been colored and taken blue paint from The Cosworth timing belt, (when I did the Timing belt job, the belt was bought seperately from Cosworth and the rest from Gates) Wheels are made in China, just like in your video, and I did like "Trashhauler" and trusted Gates for good quality :-( Thank You, for your, wery important video, as I wrote above, I just did a head job (Including Machine shop Head rebuilt) and other important things, for an 315.000km / (200.000 miles) engine service. So I am changing all Gates "china" components same time. Best Regards David From Denmark Tip for Subaru: My bolts for the CamPulley was (Exhaust hardest one) really hard to break loose, after 13-14 years, and I broke the old timing belt trying to do same thing in another youtube video, in my video you can see the plummer tool in the background from another video. But in my way, work takes short time (what takes in the video) and is cheap, and private people can get the tools easyly th-cam.com/video/CjlOG90rKwI/w-d-xo.html th-cam.com/video/Gha3lxBY4q0/w-d-xo.html "DO NOT BUY GATES"!
I don't see an issue unless you paid OEM price for it? I would assume taking the car to a certified Subaru mechanic and have them do a OEM Job paying OEM prices. Most things all round the world are made in china.
a little tip was sealed bearings play is one thing but knowing how much grease is in the barracks if the bearing spins really easy and freely it takes a long time to stop is an indication there's no grease but if you spit it slows down quickly there's plenty of grease in it as long as there's no play with it stops quickly your bearings are perfectly fine just the tip
I was going to say the same! In the 1960's, "Made in Japan" was a fate worse than death. Pertaining to cars, I only use parts from the dealer on 'valve bender' engines. Cost a little more but you know the quality is good and you can get individual parts instead of a kit. I'm willing to be a little more risky on non-valve benders.
Watched this video when it came out. Watching again because I just got an '03 Forester. It was advertised as needing head gaskets. Condition of timing belt and water pump mileage are unknown, so I'm shopping for a replacement kit and stumped on your videos again. Reading through the comments, it looks like Aisin may be the way to go.
"we don't guarantee where the parts are manufactured?" Baloney. They sold you a package that said Japan; so they are responsible. They made a false statement to you. He should have just offered you your money back & sent you a UPS pickup label or like Amazon send UPS to get it with the label.
Those are both subaru oem tensioners ... But one is the original equiment at production (the one you are questioning) and the second (the one you grab from the engine bay) is the updated tensioner .
DISCLAIMER FOR EVERYONE Timing belt kit part# TCKWP304AN You will actually receive Japanese OE product. I paid $250 canadian plus taxes from Rock auto.
Yes the Subaru parts cost a little more but in the end they are designed to last twice as long as the maintenance schedule calls for. That gates kit with shipping from rock auto was within 20 bucks us dollars. There's times that we find the manufacturers wear parts such as belts hoses pumps and coil over plugs to be competitively priced. Calling the dealership with your vin. Number only takes a few minutes. And you might be surprised.
I highly suggest watching the video we just released, it’s not only a follow up to this video, it clarifies 100% about the misinformation and controversy around the tensioner and BOTH the gates timing kits. I’m certain had you asked the right questions when you had gates on the phone, you would’ve gotten this information much earlier. This is very important, YOUR video is giving gates a bad name and your information is highly misleading. YOU BOUGHT THE CHEAPEST KIT, this isn’t gates fault. We hope to be able to clear this up for you and everyone else. If you make another video about it, please make sure to credit us for breaking the information. We spent a lot of time making this happen, we did credit you in our video. Had you not made this, we wouldn’t have made ours. And the information would still be buried.
No matter what kit he bought, it still said made in Japan on the box. How long have you been a fangirl of gates. Now explain to the people why gates water pumps have a high rate of failure no matter which box you buy.
I'll chime in. I put this kit on my 06 WRX. I thought it was OEM like you but found Chinese bearings. Not sure about tensioner, but this was around 1.5-2 years ago. I've put 45k on the kit, just popped the timing cover off yesterday. Everything looks fine. I was worried about the smallest roller, but it has held up. I was very, very careful when I compressed my tensioner
I just finished a timing belt job on 04 subaru forester. Afterwards my engine was slightly rumbling. Come to find out, the auto tensioner (China) was never filled with hydraulic fluid!! Throwing off my timing and potentially ruining my engine!! Do not buy, WTF!
Pine Hollow Auto Diagnostics Yeah man, I found your video after inspecting the old parts and I had the gut feeling on installing them that something was just not right. Thank you for the video, I'll be reusing all the Japanese parts. Good eye, good eye!
You handled that professionally with the people on the phone. Some people would of complained to the person on the phone,but they don't build the parts, they just work at the company. If i buy timing kits at the parts store,i also look to see where the parts are made. If i don't like them (made in china) i return them the same day. I will not order those kits online because it takes a week or more and a lot of wasted time. If the vehicle is old and on it's last leg,then i'll order the cheapest kit. Newer vehicles i buy parts from the dealer. It may cost double the price,but i don't want someones engine failing because i wanted to save a hundred bucks. Very good video.
my take on this is that you should replace all the parts in the kit on to the car, if a component of the kit fails you have a claim with gates, if you mix the old and new and a old100k mile part fails. This will be your fault. and you will end up repairing the car out of your wallet . CHINA parts do not = Cheese. Gates will have done there best to include quality parts as they have to pay up in the event of a claim, A new part must be better than a part that has 100k on it. Put the whole kit on, thats what the customer is paying for.
unsure how familiar you are with auto repair. many cheaper parts fail, that means ivan is working for free and the customer is out of their vehicle. this is not to be taken lightly with internal engine components. sure it is just maintenance... however they can cause some really nasty broken parts to fly around and possibly damage pistons, rods, crankshaft and that adds up very rapidly. personally i would not try to put a big corporation on the hook, i would however let the customer make the choice. an informed consumer is a wise and thoughtful consumer.
Retired automotive tooling engineer with a long history with Chinese manufacturing. The only way I would trust Chinese parts is that I would be there, in China, and inspect every part. When you are a small shop owner the only warranty given is yours, no one else's. No parts supplier and I mean none will step up and do the right thing with a small shop owner. Replace a defective part, sure. Replace an engine, no freeking way! "you have a claim with gates" good luck with that.
Very interesting. I'm with you in your decision not to use the chinese junk. And I don't buy the bit about how they needed to go to a secondary source, the truth is it's all about profit margins. They make more by selling the cheaper product.
+motoYam82 Ivan sorry for the off topic question here but Eric was telling me you and him made transducers that are identical to a wps500? He also said you could make me a high pressure transducer that could read over 8000 psi, if you don't have time can you give me the part numbers? Thanks. I sent you an invite on LinkedIn by the way. Take care Ivan.
I too ran into the same issue. I found it more cost efficient to buy the idlers from Koyo and NSK. I found the following information online. Included is the Subaru part number and the supplier equivalent part number. Tensioner = Subaru:13033AA042 NTN:ATU006J-45 Black Idler = Subaru:13073AA142 KOYO:PU306030FRR9H Red Idler = Subaru:13073AA190 NSK:60TB0693 Tooth Idler = Subaru:13085AA101 NSK: 59TB0515 Timing belt =Subaru:13028AA231
Recently had a Gates timing kit installed on my 03 forester 2.5x (EJ251). It has been roughly 500 miles since installation by a trusted subaru mechanic. I have noticed a rythmic knocking on startup the last 3 mornings. No not piston slap. Today on the way home this knocking got louder and louder. I limped her home with progressively worse knocking and beginning to misfire. Between 2 and 3000 rpm stumbled badly. Upon arriving home I left it running and grabbed a timing light. All 4 plug wires at the coil were showing mildly erratic spark patterns. I then began to probe with a stethoscope for the source of the knocking. Not Bottom end, not cams, not alternator or AC compressor. I pulled the DS timing cover inspection port, clearly louder. I creeped behind the cover until the end of the mechanics stethoscope was on the casting of the tensioner....thwack..thwack...thwack. Bearing is toast. I then shut the car off, belt feels below normal tension. I pop the passenger side rubber inspection plug and rotate the crank...Cam pulleys are out of phase, 1 tooth I am guessing. Any more and I'd expect a kaboom. That explains stumbing, misfire and knocking. I will tear it down this weekend and I am guessing I will find a made in china marking on the tensioner. Searching youtube for info on the other chinese components in the kit. Might as well replace those too. The one time I pay to have work done, busy and ski season approaching, this happens.
Wow, that sucks! Hopefully there wasn't too much damage. Keep us updated on what component actually failed. For a new component to fail in 500 miles is truly unreal!
things like this will continue until people speak up and say we will go else where,but you did a good thing always stay classy ivan. thats why I am a fan
Thanks for this video. Fitted a gates timing belt kit to a1.6 hdi psa engine and idler pully failed after 300 miles. Pully clearly broke up. Thankfully engine still intact. Got a replacement kit and one look at the new idler pully shocked me. It had flat spots and was oval. Left footing the bill for a tow truck, replacement belt kit (not gates won't ever touch one again) and labour. Gates are obviously in a race to the bottom to increase profit. I won't be joining them.
bought yokohama tyres here in thailand and asked them if they were actually made in japan.....got told that a japanese person worked in the factory here in thailand......very much buyer beware these days......great video BTW
In many cases the belt pulleys can be re-used as long as they are smooth rolling with no leakage or wobble. I have used the Chinese parts with no problems but I wonder about the longevity of the product. Water pump is another option, I have and have not replaced the pump....
Hey I live right outside State Collage, PA! I installed one of those tensioners and it failed after 8,000 miles it destroyed my rebuilt engine. Never ever use a NON-Subaru Tensioner or idler pulleys also make sure you bleed the tensioner prior to install to ensure no air bubbles in the cylinder, You can actually use the NSK(made in Japan) idler pulleys direct from NSK on Amazon you can get all 3 there… they are the exact same pulleys. Subaru buys them from NSK and ups the price about 3 times. However, the tensioner that, MUST be bought from Subaru it’s in an in-house only part. I get mine from Subaru Parts Direct off their site or eBay store they are a dealership in Washington, Oregon that usually has the cheapest OEM parts anywhere.
I purchased the Aisin TKF-006 for $207.30 including taxes and shipping on Ebay for my 2009 Subaru Forester. It has all the original OEM Japanese made timing belt, bearings, tensioner and water pump.
I'm having a noise issue...this was right on time....I bought the gates kit about 20 k ago and at start up I have a metallic noice that goes away after warm up (5-6) minutes.....I was afraid it was piston slap or a tensioner.....I'm going to get the original parts on the parts you referenced first...I have a feeling it's gonna solve this issue.... thanks for the video....this may save me $$ if not a major repair....its getting hard to trust anything...
There are also negative reviews about the Gates timing belt kit on Amazon. Some of them report that the Chinese tensioner doesn't offer enough resistance to prevent the belt from slapping, producing an engine knock. Thank you for bring this issue to light. I'm ordering a kit to install while replacing head gaskets. I will avoid Gates.
always use an OEM tensioner with these timing kits. The ones that come in the kits are known for failing. the gates Belt, water pump, and pulleys (from japan) are safe to use.
Nason Timing kits are also mainly Taiwanese components with the exact same tensioner. Possibly with Russian bearings in some cases. They put some NTN bearings on the tensioner, and ship a real NTN pulley with the kit, as it has NTN Japan written on them to try and convince you that you're getting quality.. They also ship an Optibelt timing belt with the kit. "Production start at Romanian site 2008 Inauguration of production site in China 2007 Production of finished polyurethane timing belts 2003 " 2 items in the kit are NTN and they are fairly cheap bearings with maybe $50. The rest is all weird ass parts from wherever, with unknown quality control.
Dude, you just validated my decision to pay a shop extra money for a genuine Subaru Timing belt kit and installation for my wife's 2010 Forester. I was looking at buying a Gates timing belt kit from Rock Auto but decided to go with the shop with the genuine Subaru kit where I got a 36 K mile/ 3 year warranty. Thanks Bro.
One thing to keep in mind about Amazon is that when you have something like a water pump fail, you can't warranty it through Amazon. I just ran into this on an '05 Grand Prix, 3.8L. They told me to go back to Gates directly and they require an online retailer warranty form you have to fill out and send in for a refund. Waaaaaaaaay too much trouble compared to Amazon returns. I couldn't return it since it was past their return time window. I just bought another one, but from ACDelco through RockAuto. it was only about $25, so not worth my time to deal with Gates. The Gates pump was Chinese too I believe. Bottom line: buy from somewhere that you can return it under warranty if you think you might ever have to, especially if it's expensive.
I installed a Gates kit on my STi. I was only aware of their reputation for quality and didn't look deeper at things. The tensioner failed at 800km and destroyed a rebuilt engine. Broke the piston in the number 4 cylinder. Gates stopped replying after I sent them photos of the tensioner. Unfortunately for me I had purchased the kit over a year earlier. I am now getting ready to install another engine and this one has a factory Subaru tensioner on it.
Unless the Chinese have someone looking over their shoulder the whole time they will cut corners and make crap.
That is so sad and unfortunate. Definitely worth it to get Japanese made NSK/NTN bearings in any timing components!
1Howdy1 find my comment. You are dead nuts spot on jimmy on the trigger buddy. Very refreshing comment
No offence but I don't feel bad for you.
That's what I hear from people who have personally worked with Chinese manufacturing. They *can* make quality stuff, but like you said, you have to be constantly looking over their shoulder, almost to the point that you may as well just do the job yourself in order to get good stuff out of them. If you specify m12x1.25 threads, they'll create those threads, but they'll use the dullest, crappiest tap they have in the shop and a proper bolt won't thread in smoothly. Then you tell them that their threads suck, and they will reply with something along the lines of, "oh, you want CLEAN m12x1.25 threads? That'll cost you extra.
@@1Howdy1 when was the last time you bought a Chinese car? That should say it all.
File a complaint with the Federal Trade Commission, include a link to this video and we'll see what gates has to say then.
Rebuilt Subaru engines
Now they call it "oem equivilent" instead of oem
No one cares
Made in China and put in the box in Japan... hmmm
South Main Auto Repair I've heard those Japanese boxes are worth it though.
Happens all the time. As long as something in the box was made in Japan they say it's ok. Got a scoop shovel once. 60.00 metal scoop. Made in USA all over it. Sticker on scoop with big US flag and made in USA in big letters. Another cardboard piece on Handel saying the same. Turn over and its stamped CHINA. Called manufacturer. After hanging up on me 3 times, they finally said the wooden Handel was made in USA. And I'm sure the work was done by an automated lathe. Then boxed by another machine.
How to identify original Gates PowerGrip timing belt kits
www.gatestechzone.com/en/product-info/counterfeit-protection
Pretty nifty technology to avoid counterfeiting. Thank you.
Lol that was some funny shit there.
As an older guy who is NOT a mechanic I'm impressed with you, as a young man, having the awareness AND more importantly the integrity to refuse to install the parts in question. If it was an alternator belt or a spark plug maybe it wouldn't be as big a deal if there was a failure sometime down the road but with these timing belt related parts the potential damage that could be done could be catastrophic in terms of what that damage might cost to fix AND the length of time the vehicle could be disabled while going through repairs.
I'm old school and grew up in a different time. If this exact scenario took place 50 years ago I'm almost certain that the Gates Rep would have stood on his head in a corner to make things right with you, the customer, in order not to lose you as a customer. The fact that he was so indifferent when you said you would never buy Gates stuff again is the kind of thing I can just never get used to because I've faced this type of thing countless times with different kinds of products and services I've had problems with in my later years.
This VERY scenario is a good illustration and symptom of the problems this country faces and the thing is that as older people fade into the background and younger people raised in a different age take over "the system" they just fail to see the warning signs of a system that is starting to fail.
Another sign is that most young people who read my post here will just dismiss it out of hand as the nonsense ramblings of an older person who is out of touch. They have no interest in anyone's time earned wisdom. They haven't been raised to see the value in it and as time passes they will pay a higher price because of this blindness then I ever will.
It's just like the story of the boiled frog! (look it up.)
Great video!
Thank You!
Wonderful comment, I agree with you 100% that so much knowledge and human dignity is being lost!! The system will have to correct itself eventually, and many will suffer as a result!
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics Thank you sir! Keep up the good or rather, great work.
Wise
Very wise comment, proof is in the COVID crisis
It is an iteresting point but the reality is that the parts are no longer made in japan(where we want them to be made) because we trust japan more than china. (Gates cant get the parts from japan at a good price. But they cam make them probably almost as good or better acording to gates in china. So now you can pay 300 for the Aisin kit with genuine japanese parts or 200 for the gates kit with a few chinese swap outs that are suposed to be trust worthy.
Both customer services gave very bad service I don't know about other parts of the world but where I am info on the packaging is legally required to be accurate. I am an engineer and have had a number of instances where Chinese bearings have been responsible for significant downtime and a huge loss of revenue for my company that far outweighed the cheaper cost and in almost all cases they were passed off as higher quality items from other countries. I will draught a recommendation for group consideration that they cease to use Gates parts immediately. Many thanks Ivan for the heads up.
im not even mad that its made in china, but what pisses me off is that they wrote on the box where each individual part is made. thats false advertisement.
I have done a couple Subaru's with the Aisin Kits. With these kits the tensioners use the same bearings as OEM, the belt is a Mitsuboshi which is also OEM. the water pumps are Aisin brand and are nicer made than OEM, afterall Aisin is a OEM for toyota. Seriously worth checking out if your doing these...
100% the Aisin stuff is nicer.
One very important thing that needs to be said about the new Gates kits is regarding the belt tensioner. I have used the old "made in Japan" tensioners and OEM Subaru tensioners. Most of them have had bleed down issues before the engine has even run. We used to install an aluminum wedge to prevent the belt jumping during shipping. It should noted that I have built hundreds of Subaru engines over the last 20 years. For the record, there were more issues with the OEM tensioners than the Gates.
While everyone seems to focus on the Chinese bearings in the pulleys, the fact that the new tensioners are Canadian made and are very robust design, with a much thicker plunger, and better seal design. When using the Canadian made tensioner, I am able to turn the engine backwards immediately after installation with no deflection.
Best course is to replace the top right idler with OEM and just replace the bearings in the toothed idler with quality bearings (cheap at most supply houses).
im in Canada . can you say who makes a sells the Canadian made tensioner|?
2004 Subaru Forester, exactly what happened to me on a Gates kit. Belt jumped on the Gates tensioner turning it by hand. And it felt weak. I put the Subaru tensioner back on and it was fine to 280k miles.
@@awister7814 yeah china
Depending on how long Gates has been doing this, it could very likely be considered fraud; especially if Gates knew or had reason to have known that consumers relied on Gates to provide OE components. This could amount to a class-action suit if Gates purposefully kept making boxes for these kits which continued to have the marking of "made in Japan," although made elsewhere. If this video gets some traction, Gates might start scrambling.
I always get Aisin kits. A little more but always use the proper NTN/Koyo parts.
As a DYI'er I was hearing Gates timing belt kits were not the quality they once where. I bought an Aisin timing belt kit with water pump for my 2011 Honda Odyssey recently and was very pleased.
yeah always pick Aisin or OEM, Gates can't be trusted
Been installing Gate timing kits in customer's vehicles for years and haven't had any issues. The only things we get dealer are cam/crank seals and the hydraulic tensioners.
I never use gates belts either. Bando or continental belts are the best.
+Discretesignals The switch to Chinese parts in the Gates kits seems to be a recent change. As motoYam82 pointed out even the boxes still say "made in Japan" on them so Gates is still using up old packaging inventory. Have you installed a Gates kit recently?
I had a similar problem with a Cloyes timing chain kit several years back, which included a non-OEM tensioner assembly with a flawed design, which resulted in chain slap at idle. Unlike that Gates rep, the Cloyes tech took the time to troubleshoot with me to find the problem, then overnighted me an entire new kit at no cost, which he personally hand-picked and inspected prior to shipping. Needless to say, I buy a lot of Cloyes products whenever I can!
Had great experience with Cloyes as well.
Thanks for taking the time to make this video. I have used Gates products and Aisen on my Subs....but no more Gates. That is false advertising, and underhanded, and deceptive like you stated in the video. I work on cars all the time and refuse to use Chinese products/parts even though some are decent. Gates get the picture....you lost a customer.
I think they lost more than one customer...
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics damn straight!
Thank you for sharing your experience. I used to fix my own cars very often. The Gate brand was one of my favor but it won't be anymore.
Dang, was all set to buy a Gates timing belt kit for my Subaru. Just removed it from my Amazon shopping list. Thanks motoYam82!
You and me both. Good catch Ivan.
get Aisin instead
Yeah, they are also on my radar. I've heard a lot of good things. I will probably see if I can get it from Amazon. Their returns process is stupid easy.
WOW SAME HERE
Buy the ITM kit from rockauto.com it comes with Japanese parts.
*BAIT AND SWITCH* (Non-refundable if you open the plastic and see how deceitful we are)
China has it's hands in everything even tomato sauce 😢
Aisin FTW! I did SO MUCH research to figure out what brands would be good aftermarket/oem timing belt kits. You helped SO MUCH in making my decision to avoid Gates. I'm sorry you had to go through this and hats off to you for refusing to install questionable parts.
i always thought gates was equal to oem from their reputation. things change. thanks ivan
Great video, thanks for posting... What I have learned from this is that I need to work on my people skills, I think that I would have been rather toxic on the phone, which wouldn't have gotten me any further. I admire your composure.
A timing belt job is usually something you have time to plan ahead for. Order Subaru components from one of the dealers that have online store fronts. You will pay a little more, but for a job you may only do once or twice on the life of the car, its worth the extra.
3 people watching this video work for Gates . Nice catch Ivan
5*😉
8*
16 now - it's the whole inbound-call department. :D
Nice catch? its customer service problems like this that trash a once trusted reputation.... i will never buy a gates kit again because of how this man was treated and neither will any of my friends boo on you!!!
Hey Ivan, thanks for making all these videos! I was just about to buy a Gates kit for my Impreza but after seeing this I went with the Aisin TKF-001 kit instead. Haven't installed it yet but based on the contents I can recommend it. All parts have made in Japan stamped on them (except belt made in USA):
Aisin WPF-002 water pump (includes gasket)
NTN ATU106J-1 tensioner (This is identical to the one in your Gates kit. I can see from the video that although the castings don't match, the small part number written around the tensioner cylinder is the same between this one and the OEM one you took out)
NSK ZA-59TB0515 toothed idler
NSK ZA-60TB0693 smooth idler
Koyo IF-001K smooth idler
Mitsubishi CD304 belt
Just sharing if anyone is wondering what else is available :)
I wish they sold the Aisin kit without the water pump...
I just did a 1998 Subaru Forester head gasket and replaced timing belt and tensioner also a
couple of idler pulleys, I picked up the oem parts on ebay at a good price, I just made sure
they had good pictures that showed the oem part numbers on them before ordering. You really have to do your research before ordering parts now days. Great Video
Thanks for posting this; luckily, I saw this early in my research to replace my timing belt and did more digging. I ended up getting an Aisin kit to avoid any shenanigans.
Great videos. I followed up with Gates today. They are now putting an "n" as last digit as in tck304n to denote all componenets made in japan. The "n" denoted kits do cost more. So the tck304n kit costs more than the tck304 kits. They said that the non "n" denoted kits have two of four components oem and two made in China.I think the oem components were the idle and one of the non toothed pulleys. So apparantly its not an sourcing isssue, its to have to price points on their kits.
Are the n kits available for sale? I've never seen one...
EDIT: I just checked on RockAuto...sure enough there it is! I will be trying that one out next time :)
Cool. Keep up the great videos. Really enjoy them. You and South Main Auto are two of my favorite channels.
Great info and huge kudos to motoYam82 for exposing this. Maybe update the description ?
So" true that "we say downunder Nuck Chorris , hope you guys in the US wake to yourselfs quickly about chinese junk!
I was wondering what that meant. Mine is a TK307, But the TK307N cost more and I couldn't figure out why.
Yeah that's really sad that companies do that when I order OEM I expect OEM. i'm glad you called them out on it
Installed a Gates timing belt kit in my son's 2006 Forester at 196,000 miles, because the tensioner had failed. The kit included everything except the water pump. Two weeks ago at 226,000, the car overheated, and my son pulled over and we checked it out. When we tried to start it, it sounded like it had a box of rocks banging around, so we assumed that the timing belt had failed and the pistons were hitting valves. We pulled the timing belt cover, and it turned out that the belt had not failed - one of the idler bearings (the one to the upper left of the crankshaft) had failed completely, the balls were all over the place, the bearing was all burned, and there were spots of burned belt on all of the other bearings. We were amazed that the belt had not snapped (and it had not slipped any teeth) - so I can't say anything negative about the Gates belt, but the bearings (they are Chinese) are obviously sub-standard. Anyway, after doing some TH-cam research, Mr. Subaru states that Aisin is the ONLY timing belt kit he can recommend - it has all Japanese parts. We got lucky, and I will NEVER buy another Gates kit. This could have cost several thousand dollars if the engine had been ruined.
Made it easy for me to narrow down my options when buying auto parts! Gates eliminated 👎!
if you started not buying chinese made parts for your cars then you will be off the road very soon , take your time go over new car available and find something not made in china
I agree with you Ivan ! I have Toyotas and Will not compromise on parts for my car and truck ! Bravo for calling them out on this.
Great posting! You were too kind to the Gates & Rockauto customer service people. Thanks for pulling the curtain back on both Gates & Rockauto. I purchase from my my indie parts shop. You do pay more sometimes but they will try and match prices when they can. Personalized service of a human being wins every time when compared to the heartless phone customer service guy.
Not sure Rock coulda done anymore than they did dude.. Rock didn't make it, but yeah F Gates!
FYI, Gates now makes the "N" variant kits which do include the Japanese components: TCK304N
I work on lots of Subaru's and have been very suspicious of these kits . This is typical of Gates .The bait and switch technique is a time honored tradition in mass marketing . Gates has lost me as a customer as has NAPA for Japanese timing kits . Chinese bearings are crap .Do not install any Chinese bearings .Auto Zone pulls this as well with Subaru front wheel bearings claiming to warranty the bearings doe not include labor so the mechanic eats the loss for come back repairs . Thanks for posting this video exposing the fraud of these corporations with false advertising ! Ebay markets some all Japanese timing kits but beware of fraud there too.
leftcoastdane alot of people stoped using napa
The Rock Auto rep didn't understand the complaint. The fact is, the box lists all the components by part number. Those parts are then listed as made in Japan. Absolutely no ambiguity whatsoever. Mislabeled by Gates. They are trying to pass cheaper components in their "made in Japan" kits. Luckily you noticed.
They have been pulling this crap for awhile. I did a timing belt on a customer's car 2009 Impreza and didn't pay attention to this and installed it all with a new OEM pump I got from a Subaru dealer. Belt failed prematurely due to locked up bearing. Ruined the heads on the vehicle. Tried to first blame my customer for going to an unqualified tech who installed it wrong. So I e-mailed my copy of the receipt to them and the copy of my Subaru certifications (I am a legitimately certified Subaru tech). Then they tried to blame the break on the water pump because we didn't send it back with the claim. I then e-mailed them and confirmed the water pump was re-installed on the repaired engine and has been running fine without any issue since then.
In the end, after I re-inspected the components and found some of the "OEM" components were made in China, I had to get pretty blunt with them. In the end we had to get a lawyer to get them to pay out the claim.
Wow man that really sucks! The Chinese bearing company "Taide" was established in 2001...so basically there has not been enough time to establish a reputation of quality for the aftermarket. Now if OEM suppliers get on board and start using those bearings in brand new vehicles and they last, then I might become a believer. Until then, it's too risky of an experiment to install unproven parts, especially those that can lead to catastrophic engine damage like in your case.
i just got this kit about a month ago for my womans 05 outback,,, i did the "air bleed" on the tensioner ,and so far, over 2000 miles and it hasnt gone slack or anything amiss,,,, everything seems to be in working order,,, altho i will post here again with an update if it would fail or have a problem
False advertising by Gates, it's good you recorded this. The only way to get their attention is to withhold your money. Find another source, and return their fraudulent product.
If it were a dual cam, it wouldn't be a freewheeler, and losing a belt on an interference motor is not an option. Even though it's a single cam, I won't put my customer through that, the tow bill would exceed the cost of the kit.
Hi James, the 2.5L SOHC Subaru engine is indeed interference! That is why I would NEVER install these junky Gates components on a Subaru. My 1996 Mercury Mystique 2.0 DOHC on the other hand is a freewheeler, so no worries ;)
As of 2022:
Gates kits currently ship with an "improved" tensioner - they have increased the diameter of the piston versus OEM so it aligns better with the part it pushes against. The one in my package is made in Canada and actually looks like a fairly quality part. Canadian bearing.
Cogged pulley is the same Taide bearing Chinese part.
Upper pulley is the same Taide bearing Chinese part.
Lower pulley is a Canadian part with a Canadian bearing.
Water pump is unknown.
The packaging now lists a huge number of countries the non-belt parts may come from. The belt is still made in the US.
I agree the box is misleading and they should have slapped another sticker over the top rather than substituting parts. What a lot of people refuse to believe is that there are quality Chinese parts. The issue is that there's copious amounts of crap Chinese parts and it can be hard to distinguish between them, especially on a bearing. There's a couple options to consider in your case; slap the old parts on (would be my last choice), put on the new Chinese parts (I'd research the bearing manufacturer), or use the old parts but press in new quality bearings such as SKF. The last option is probably the best, you get know good tolerance parts with new quality bearings. The OEM pulleys are probably fine to re-use but at a point they will fail, maybe 3 belt changes? You don't want to risk smoking a belt because of that. If I used the Chinese parts, I'd probably bring the service interval sooner.
I agree with Nate here. Have you had a bad experience with this particular Chinese manufacturer of these bearings previously, Ivan? if so I understand, if not then I don't....not everything that is made in China is crap!
Would you take the risk of having a "bad experience" by installing unproven parts on a customer's car, or even your own car? Heck no!
I'm late to the party but Nate has a good point. I used to work with a Chinese kid in the shop and he'd say the same thing because he'd get pissed about people saying "China makes crap." But Moto also makes a very good valid point about not wanting to risk it. It was good to see him call Gates out on it though. Hopefully more manufacturers start seeing things like what Moto did.
Gates give 60,000 miles as the most you want to use their kits. OEM is 100,000 Miles, The dealer told me they never replace the water pump unless it is leaking.
@@bobproxmire3637 thanks for proving the point, they cut the service interval almost in half... Sounds like quality stuff😒
Since my Legacy has a "B" on the 4th digit of the VIN, to the Gates TCK307 was the correct kit.
I just put one on tonight. In the Gates TCK-307:
Belt - USA
Upper Idler - Japan
Lower Idler - Japan
Toothed Idler - Japan
Tensioner - Canada
When replacing your Subaru timing belt, Mitsuboshi belt and NTN bearings only if you're going to use aftermarket parts. Japanese made water pump, usually good. I highly recommend an Subaru thermostat or equivalent O.E. design style. Do all of them at once and you're good for another 105,000 miles. Plain and simple. I've been a Subaru tech. for 20 years. Original Equipment quality and a few bucks cheaper than what you get from the dealer.
HND HND I just did Toyota 1mzfe timing belt/water pump & got the mitsuboshi belt...glad I marked the original because the other one didn't have alignment marks...spent 20min counting teeth on the belt between alignment marks lol. All worked out fine (it was the right belt)...but will check the listing description more closely next time... even if it says OEM. :)
That's too bad. I've always liked gates hoses and belts but I'll be keeping an eye out from now on. Thanks for bringing that to our attention. It was nice to meet you at the meet up Ivan.
If you buy a box of Cheerios and it says Cheerios on the box and you open it to find Rice Crispies, you'd get your money back. You wouldn't have to call up Cheerios only to have them tell you they can't guarantee you will get Cheerios in the box, just that you'll get cereal.
LOL that's a perfect analogy!
I'm hungry now
jake ounce
Would you like Cheerios or Rice Krispies?
I have had similar experience with gates timing belt kits. I am a toyota and Honda guy and I try and get Aisin kits as much as possible and I am always thrilled with the quality.
I also feel you did the right thing. Those Japanese bearings I trust even with a load of miles on them more then the chinese bearings.
Unfortunately gates seems to be outsourcing alot of their parts. Even the accessory drive belts are made in Mexico now. Alot of the accessory belt drive tensioners are Chinese. They do not seem to be as quality as the USA parts (of course) Rock auto's service is going down the tubes too. I will not buy anything from them any longer.
I agree 110%, I've ran into several Gates and Rock Auto trash. Especially kits. Gates belts i still buy just because i get a good discount. Happy wrenching!!!
I ordered a Gates kit and did the install myself. The kit first off did not come with any gaskets(I blame Rock auto for this). The belt tensioner failed and I thought it was rod knock any my engine was toast. Luckily I just needed to replace the kit, so I got all OEM subaru parts instead. The accessory belts were the wrong widths as well.
manlymanmanman. did you bleed the tenstioner?
trump gawn be makin the jobs cum bak from the commies
I bought brake shoes etc for my dump run/Lowe's pickup truck from Rock Auto partially because there was a little American flag by the items indicating that it was American made stuff. ALL the boxes said "made in China". Yeah I put the stuff on, and haven't had any problems but I did feel ripped off.
Somewhere down the road, my trusty, garage kept, daily driver '97 will be scheduled for the timing belt deal. Who can I trust? I can't absorb a trashed motor because of shambolic belt or tensioner.
For instance, Moog is junk now. The lower ball joints have failed AGAIN on the previously mentioned truck! These lowers have led a pampered life! l You wouldn't think that buying parts for your car would be like a damn minefield!
Is paying the high price of the dealership the only way to get reasonable quality stuff? Can I even trust the steelership anymore?
Well, thanks for the video! I received my Gates timing belt kit for $119 from Amazon yesterday for my Toyota. I saw your video yesterday and decided to file a return ( I chose reason not as described , I said the water pump was different, from what I read from reviews the Gates doesn’t have a weeping hole, so that wasn’t necessary untrue for my reason for the return, so I won’t be charged for shipping on the return) and spend the extra $37 and ordered the Aisin. So when it gets delivered tomorrow, UPS will be taking away the Gates kit. I have nothing really against the Chinese stuff, but if I wanted Chinese parts I would have ordered the off brand kit for $65. For Gates to use there name to sell an over priced kit is disgraceful, I know the whole kit wasn’t probably Chinese, but I didn’t even break the plastic to find out, your video was enough. Especially for parts like this, it’s not a good idea to take the cheap way out. Somethings are fine for playing the odds, for example if I were to buy a Chinese alternator for $50 rather than a non Chinese for $200, I would most likely get the Chinese. 2 MAIN THINGS TO CONSIDER when trying to save a buck, 1, how long will the job take to do (in my case hours), 2, what kind of damage could the part cause if it fails.
At least you did not have to push 1 for English. Seems to be a lot of that cheap parts swaping going on anymore . I believe they sourced the price , and not that real ones were not available . They had to know they were miss labeling it . I believe they knew they were being dishonest .
Happy to see someone has brought this to the attention of the public. My Gates parts for the same model vehicle failed after 18 months and 6, 000 miles. It cost $2000 to repair.
In the UK this is called false advertising! BAD gates!!!
same here too
I installed a Gates TCK304 kit on my 02 Impreza engine. Idlers were Koyo & NSK. Tensioner was NTN. Within the first year and not too many miles I started the engine one morning and noticed an unusual vibration. Turned it off right away and decided to look at the timing belt. Timing had jumped a few teeth and I found the toothed NSK idler had collapsed and was slightly nicking the engine. Contacted Gates by email but never heard back. Warranty outside the US even for Canada - good luck. Aisin next time.
Thank you for sharing, Wayne! Glad the damage wasn't catastrophic.
Wow, the good old days when rock auto had customer service!
Impressed ROC actually called Gates but the attitude from both companies rankled me especially as the advertising on the box is clearly misleading. No apology from either company for wasting your time and money. You're more patient than me and that is an intended compliment
So does anyone know where to get legit made in Japan kit besides OEM?
I heard Aisin, Contitech have the right parts but no confirmation
even genuine is made in china now , labour rates too high any where else
Was tempted to purchase another gates... After appardntly a tensioner failed and blew my 2007 legacy turbo...
Thanks for posting this video...
Saved me another headache...
Way to bust some chops. Made in China is not in any stretch OEM quality. Watch a Chinese car crash test and tell me that something Chinese made that looks okay is going to perform okay.
Hey Brian! Yeah I wasn't buying that load of crap from the Gates rep either lol...they sold out plain and simple. For shame, Gates!
Whose chops were busted? Accepting that you paid for something that you didn't receive, by saying that you won't buy something else is a non-threat.
Volvo, Buick, Cadillac and Ford already have or will have new models built in China, on American roads. They are already here boys.
49s13
🙆MG VOLVO TOO, NOOOOOOOOOO
i put a gates kit in same car last year. i did not notice or even think of looking where it was made. the purchase decision for the gates was based on $ and reviews. the oem part from the factory new only lasted 6yrs. so i think where ever its made its got a shelf life, it wont last forever. but now i will definitely be on the look out for the small print made in china or wherever, especially if i am over paying for an oem part from the dealer.
In a world flooded with cheap shoddy Chinese copies the 'made in Japan' label is valued as a guarantee of quality. By misrepresenting its sources of supply Gates deserves to be kicked to the curb. Eric O at SMA made a recent video in which he paid top dollar for OEM bearings from a US car manufacturer only to find that he was supplied with stuff made in, you guessed it, China!
That US car manufacturer was none other than General Motors, recipient of a massive taxpayer bailout.
That's why I respect Ford for not taking our money.
Relevant, how?
GM took taxpayer money but it's going to be the first company to sell us a Made in China car. Lots of Chinese parts are going into GM cars now.
All the big three are buying from China and Ford was the first so the bailout is not relevant. Who will be the first to bring us a "Made in China car" will probably be Geely. Your bias regarding GM has clouded your mind and made you resistant to facts. We (the USA) buy from China because of costs and profits. ALL are guilty. Personally, I'm sick of all the junk (Chinese or otherwise) in the parts stores and the overpricing of parts from the auto manufacturers.
I am about to install the Gate kit on my son’s 2007 Subaru Impreza. Thanks for this Beware Gate video.
"Made in Japan means it was packaged in Japan",................hmmmmm,................NOT!
HE IS full of SHIT!!
rvz77 so they make the parts in China, send them to japan to get packaged as a kit, so they can say the “kit” ( not the components of the kit) was made in Japan.??
@@paulsz6194 HORSESHIT!! I
Bought the AISIN KIT.
i think you misunderstood my statement. I was s saying, just because all the ( chinese made) parts are put in a box in Japan and are ma few a lot there & shipped to the U.S does not constitute "made in Japan" . I don't know why you feel the need to "Horseshit" on me..
@@paulsz6194 sorry for not being clearer. I was agreeing with you.
What you described sounds like a horseshit maneuver by Gates to find a cheaper alternative for sake of profit.
I went with the Aisin kit. Stamped made in Japan parts.
Thanks for the honest review and I'll be making sure all the parts are made in Japan before picking up my kit.
Did you really expect those phone calls to go any different?? "Sure we'll refund your money in a week or two." But that doesn't help you when you have a customers car torn apart with no reputable local parts source to obtain an Aisin kit quickly. You were too nice to these half ass employees that didn't offer any kind of real resolution.
Putting a different country of origin is on the box downright deceptive. Thank you for the heads up I will never buy their products again. The second guy you spoke to on the phone also had an attitude issue but you are a gentleman, my New York temper would not have been as cordial.Thank you for the great info.I wish I had a mechanic as good as you close by.
I would think that is Bait and Switch.
few days ago I put in INAS Subaru timing belt kit (Belt was made in Slovenia and Pulleys in Japan)... so much whine and whistle that i thought i have installed a turbo charger by mistake. replaced it with OEM and all problems went away. not buying any aftermarket stuff ever again.
When aftermarket manufacturers can b sued is when the quality will increase. iPhones r made in China and they r the best in the world. They make what u specify. Notice the China part had the Gates logo. Not the tensioner casting but the bearing. Try buying any cam or crank sensor from Standard. IF THEY WORK AT ALL U R LUCKY. OEM works perfect all the time.. How much did the faulty ignition switches cost GM. Ya think the Ceo noticed a few billion? Congress will not hold aftermarket feet to the fire. Takata's feet r burning. If channels with 50,000 subscribers get on this and talk about it at a meet up. And everybody starts refusing to buy the junk things might change. Plaintiff attorneys might smell some blood if a few people die from stalls on the freeway. But right now quality is racing to the bottom.. U get what pay for. That's not even true anymore
Some things to ponder... I'm old enough to remember when "Made in Japan" was an item to stay far away from...Like the first Honda I saw at a local Ford dealer... The exhaust manifold was even rough from being sand cast... And when this "Honda" hit a berm the front end parts were NOT available for nine months ...
The first attempts by KIA in the US market were lousy but then came their second attempts (KIA Spectras) showed that they were able to produce a great quality car... My family owns 3 KIA Spectras (2006~2009) and various Hyundais (1 Tiburon, 1 Accent, 2 Sedonas) and in my 67 years I have never had a better car brand.... I CAN'T say that about the numerous US cars I have owned over the years
Let's take TVs...
Toshibas, Sonys , Hitachis, Sanyos, Panasonics are ALL now made in China or South Korea.... So the "name brands" are not what they represent in the names....
I'm wearing shoes that I found that were made in Vietnam...(our deadly foe in the 60s and 70s)...
My very reliable 10 year old "Toshiba" laptop was also made in China....
It's a fact of life that today's market is a "Global" one...
I'd bet that the Subaru you are working on has a fairy high amount of Chinese parts that were used in it's original assembly....
Yes... some items coming out of China are junk....BUT....some parts meet or exceed tough ISO 9004 specs....
BTW.... China has been portrayed as "outside" of Asia... Last time I checked it is a great portion of it....
I'm not saying that GATES or Rockauto are correct in their representation of the products that they sell but can any of you know or can state that these parts are truly defective? Only a standards testing lab can.... Gates was wrong in mislabelling...but even that was probably from boxes all ready printed and in inventory at the time of packing....
Yes...we should be wary of products from emerging countries but the "brand name" on the box or product should offer some sense of security....
You might ask GATES if they have quality checked these parts...
Just trying to be fair....
Dave
What does iPhone or Apple have to do with any of this? FWIW my "utter garbage" 9 year old iphone still works, is used daily, and the battery still holds a day or better worth of charge. It's never been to any repair shop, not even once. So what you call garbage, I call quality to live up to.
it's luck, nothing more. i had my iphone 3gs to the end of his possible life. swiched to new iphone and it died after 3 months of normal use. Switched to samsung... so far 2 years and it's holding. so it's all about Quality control and luck :)
Bill Rimmer I take that challenge. iPhone isn't the best. The camera is, but the rest of it is garbage. Camera made in Japan, rest of the device made in China.
Kia Spectra engine is ok not great. 2002 Spectra at under 150000 miles is falling apart. My Camry with 220000 doesn't have any issues.
Only use OEM parts on a Subaru. That Red-colored lower idler pulley will be the first to go bad, its got a much smaller bearing in it than the upper idler pulley. so I always swap out the lower idler pulley with a 2nd new upper idler pulley.
There is the lying "can't" "We can't guarantee that" -- Oh yes you can; you DONT WANT TO. Why is it that so often lies are told in business: "We Can't" when it is "We don't want to"?
Same experience on Gates Kit for the Subaru Forester XT 2006 Kit Number "TCK328" (Do not buy it).
I am doing a Headgasket job on my Forester 2006 (right now Juli 2019), and because of your video I double checked the Pulleys from Gates I have Installed 2 years ago/ 30-40.000 KM ago
Two Wheels have sounds in the wheel bearing when you wiggle it, and the one wheel is worn out, and don't turn around easy any more, and has been colored and taken blue paint from The Cosworth timing belt, (when I did the Timing belt job, the belt was bought seperately from Cosworth and the rest from Gates)
Wheels are made in China, just like in your video, and I did like "Trashhauler" and trusted Gates for good quality :-(
Thank You, for your, wery important video, as I wrote above, I just did a head job (Including Machine shop Head rebuilt) and other important things, for an 315.000km / (200.000 miles) engine service.
So I am changing all Gates "china" components same time.
Best Regards David From Denmark
Tip for Subaru:
My bolts for the CamPulley was (Exhaust hardest one) really hard to break loose, after 13-14 years, and I broke the old timing belt trying to do same thing in another youtube video, in my video you can see the plummer tool in the background from another video. But in my way, work takes short time (what takes in the video) and is cheap, and private people can get the tools easyly
th-cam.com/video/CjlOG90rKwI/w-d-xo.html
th-cam.com/video/Gha3lxBY4q0/w-d-xo.html
"DO NOT BUY GATES"!
I don't see an issue unless you paid OEM price for it? I would assume taking the car to a certified Subaru mechanic and have them do a OEM Job paying OEM prices. Most things all round the world are made in china.
a little tip was sealed bearings play is one thing but knowing how much grease is in the barracks if the bearing spins really easy and freely it takes a long time to stop is an indication there's no grease but if you spit it slows down quickly there's plenty of grease in it as long as there's no play with it stops quickly your bearings are perfectly fine just the tip
I remember when "Made in Japan" was considered junk. Am I getting old?
I was going to say the same! In the 1960's, "Made in Japan" was a fate worse than death.
Pertaining to cars, I only use parts from the dealer on 'valve bender' engines. Cost a little more but you know the quality is good and you can get individual parts instead of a kit. I'm willing to be a little more risky on non-valve benders.
@Jack Cleary I agree
Watched this video when it came out. Watching again because I just got an '03 Forester. It was advertised as needing head gaskets.
Condition of timing belt and water pump mileage are unknown, so I'm shopping for a replacement kit and stumped on your videos again. Reading through the comments, it looks like Aisin may be the way to go.
"we don't guarantee where the parts are manufactured?" Baloney. They sold you a package that said Japan; so they are responsible. They made a false statement to you. He should have just offered you your money back & sent you a UPS pickup label or like Amazon send UPS to get it with the label.
But they will guarantee that your money will go to their banks account. A bunch of fat rats doing shity business.
Those are both subaru oem tensioners ... But one is the original equiment at production (the one you are questioning) and the second (the one you grab from the engine bay) is the updated tensioner .
DISCLAIMER FOR EVERYONE
Timing belt kit part# TCKWP304AN
You will actually receive Japanese OE product. I paid $250 canadian plus taxes from Rock auto.
Yes the Subaru parts cost a little more but in the end they are designed to last twice as long as the maintenance schedule calls for. That gates kit with shipping from rock auto was within 20 bucks us dollars. There's times that we find the manufacturers wear parts such as belts hoses pumps and coil over plugs to be competitively priced. Calling the dealership with your vin. Number only takes a few minutes. And you might be surprised.
I highly suggest watching the video we just released, it’s not only a follow up to this video, it clarifies 100% about the misinformation and controversy around the tensioner and BOTH the gates timing kits. I’m certain had you asked the right questions when you had gates on the phone, you would’ve gotten this information much earlier. This is very important, YOUR video is giving gates a bad name and your information is highly misleading. YOU BOUGHT THE CHEAPEST KIT, this isn’t gates fault.
We hope to be able to clear this up for you and everyone else. If you make another video about it, please make sure to credit us for breaking the information. We spent a lot of time making this happen, we did credit you in our video. Had you not made this, we wouldn’t have made ours. And the information would still be buried.
where was this 2 years ago 🤦🏻♂️
I second this
Spread this like wildfire.
Thanks for finding out the truth for us, and I don't even own a Subaru lol
No matter what kit he bought, it still said made in Japan on the box. How long have you been a fangirl of gates. Now explain to the people why gates water pumps have a high rate of failure no matter which box you buy.
I'll chime in.
I put this kit on my 06 WRX. I thought it was OEM like you but found Chinese bearings. Not sure about tensioner, but this was around 1.5-2 years ago.
I've put 45k on the kit, just popped the timing cover off yesterday.
Everything looks fine.
I was worried about the smallest roller, but it has held up.
I was very, very careful when I compressed my tensioner
Hopefully it lasts another 60k before the next change!
I just finished a timing belt job on 04 subaru forester. Afterwards my engine was slightly rumbling. Come to find out, the auto tensioner (China) was never filled with hydraulic fluid!! Throwing off my timing and potentially ruining my engine!! Do not buy, WTF!
Wow that is just terrible...
Pine Hollow Auto Diagnostics
Yeah man, I found your video after inspecting the old parts and I had the gut feeling on installing them that something was just not right. Thank you for the video, I'll be reusing all the Japanese parts. Good eye, good eye!
You handled that professionally with the people on the phone. Some people would of complained to the person on the phone,but they don't build the parts, they just work at the company. If i buy timing kits at the parts store,i also look to see where the parts are made. If i don't like them (made in china) i return them the same day. I will not order those kits online because it takes a week or more and a lot of wasted time. If the vehicle is old and on it's last leg,then i'll order the cheapest kit. Newer vehicles i buy parts from the dealer. It may cost double the price,but i don't want someones engine failing because i wanted to save a hundred bucks. Very good video.
my take on this is that you should replace all the parts in the kit on to the car, if a component of the kit fails you have a claim with gates, if you mix the old and new and a old100k mile part fails. This will be your fault. and you will end up repairing the car out of your wallet .
CHINA parts do not = Cheese.
Gates will have done there best to include quality parts as they have to pay up in the event of a claim,
A new part must be better than a part that has 100k on it.
Put the whole kit on, thats what the customer is paying for.
unsure how familiar you are with auto repair. many cheaper parts fail, that means ivan is working for free and the customer is out of their vehicle. this is not to be taken lightly with internal engine components. sure it is just maintenance... however they can cause some really nasty broken parts to fly around and possibly damage pistons, rods, crankshaft and that adds up very rapidly. personally i would not try to put a big corporation on the hook, i would however let the customer make the choice. an informed consumer is a wise and thoughtful consumer.
chris, i am a Uk IMI qualified Master Tech with 20 years in the job
+andrew davis I like your credentials but obviously you're a fool. I'm sure Gates will step right up and pay for an engine and damages, right!
Sven ... What do you do for a living ???
Retired automotive tooling engineer with a long history with Chinese manufacturing. The only way I would trust Chinese parts is that I would be there, in China, and inspect every part. When you are a small shop owner the only warranty given is yours, no one else's. No parts supplier and I mean none will step up and do the right thing with a small shop owner. Replace a defective part, sure. Replace an engine, no freeking way! "you have a claim with gates" good luck with that.
Thank you man, your loss saved a lot of us.
Very interesting. I'm with you in your decision not to use the chinese junk. And I don't buy the bit about how they needed to go to a secondary source, the truth is it's all about profit margins. They make more by selling the cheaper product.
Not if people stop buying it...
+motoYam82 Ivan sorry for the off topic question here but Eric was telling me you and him made transducers that are identical to a wps500? He also said you could make me a high pressure transducer that could read over 8000 psi, if you don't have time can you give me the part numbers? Thanks. I sent you an invite on LinkedIn by the way. Take care Ivan.
hmmm the cheaper versions go as high as 2500psi. 8000psi is available, but costs quite a bit. I'll have to do some research on that.
I too ran into the same issue. I found it more cost efficient to buy the idlers from Koyo and NSK. I found the following information online. Included is the Subaru part number and the supplier equivalent part number.
Tensioner = Subaru:13033AA042 NTN:ATU006J-45
Black Idler = Subaru:13073AA142 KOYO:PU306030FRR9H
Red Idler = Subaru:13073AA190 NSK:60TB0693
Tooth Idler = Subaru:13085AA101 NSK: 59TB0515
Timing belt =Subaru:13028AA231
Ha Ha that's it for Gates quality
Recently had a Gates timing kit installed on my 03 forester 2.5x (EJ251). It has been roughly 500 miles since installation by a trusted subaru mechanic. I have noticed a rythmic knocking on startup the last 3 mornings. No not piston slap. Today on the way home this knocking got louder and louder. I limped her home with progressively worse knocking and beginning to misfire. Between 2 and 3000 rpm stumbled badly. Upon arriving home I left it running and grabbed a timing light. All 4 plug wires at the coil were showing mildly erratic spark patterns. I then began to probe with a stethoscope for the source of the knocking. Not Bottom end, not cams, not alternator or AC compressor. I pulled the DS timing cover inspection port, clearly louder. I creeped behind the cover until the end of the mechanics stethoscope was on the casting of the tensioner....thwack..thwack...thwack. Bearing is toast. I then shut the car off, belt feels below normal tension. I pop the passenger side rubber inspection plug and rotate the crank...Cam pulleys are out of phase, 1 tooth I am guessing. Any more and I'd expect a kaboom. That explains stumbing, misfire and knocking. I will tear it down this weekend and I am guessing I will find a made in china marking on the tensioner. Searching youtube for info on the other chinese components in the kit. Might as well replace those too. The one time I pay to have work done, busy and ski season approaching, this happens.
Wow, that sucks! Hopefully there wasn't too much damage. Keep us updated on what component actually failed. For a new component to fail in 500 miles is truly unreal!
One word Aisin
things like this will continue until people speak up and say we will go else where,but you did a good thing always stay classy ivan. thats why I am a fan
“Chyna Virus.” -YouKnowWho
Thanks for this video. Fitted a gates timing belt kit to a1.6 hdi psa engine and idler pully failed after 300 miles. Pully clearly broke up. Thankfully engine still intact. Got a replacement kit and one look at the new idler pully shocked me. It had flat spots and was oval. Left footing the bill for a tow truck, replacement belt kit (not gates won't ever touch one again) and
labour. Gates are obviously in a race to the bottom to increase profit. I won't be joining them.
bought yokohama tyres here in thailand and asked them if they were actually made in japan.....got told that a japanese person worked in the factory here in thailand......very much buyer beware these days......great video BTW
In many cases the belt pulleys can be re-used as long as they are smooth rolling with no leakage or wobble. I have used the Chinese parts with no problems but I wonder about the longevity of the product. Water pump is another option, I have and have not replaced the pump....
Hey I live right outside State Collage, PA!
I installed one of those tensioners and it failed after 8,000 miles it destroyed my rebuilt engine. Never ever use a NON-Subaru Tensioner or idler pulleys also make sure you bleed the tensioner prior to install to ensure no air bubbles in the cylinder, You can actually use the NSK(made in Japan) idler pulleys direct from NSK on Amazon you can get all 3 there… they are the exact same pulleys. Subaru buys them from NSK and ups the price about 3 times. However, the tensioner that, MUST be bought from Subaru it’s in an in-house only part. I get mine from Subaru Parts Direct off their site or eBay store they are a dealership in Washington, Oregon that usually has the cheapest OEM parts anywhere.
I purchased the Aisin TKF-006 for $207.30 including taxes and shipping on Ebay for my 2009 Subaru Forester. It has all the original OEM Japanese made timing belt, bearings, tensioner and water pump.
I wont be using a Gates kit on any of my Subarus. Misleading at best and at worst completely dishonest. Glad to find this out. Thanks for sharing.
I'm having a noise issue...this was right on time....I bought the gates kit about 20 k ago and at start up I have a metallic noice that goes away after warm up (5-6) minutes.....I was afraid it was piston slap or a tensioner.....I'm going to get the original parts on the parts you referenced first...I have a feeling it's gonna solve this issue.... thanks for the video....this may save me $$ if not a major repair....its getting hard to trust anything...
There are also negative reviews about the Gates timing belt kit on Amazon. Some of them report that the Chinese tensioner doesn't offer enough resistance to prevent the belt from slapping, producing an engine knock. Thank you for bring this issue to light. I'm ordering a kit to install while replacing head gaskets. I will avoid Gates.
always use an OEM tensioner with these timing kits. The ones that come in the kits are known for failing. the gates Belt, water pump, and pulleys (from japan) are safe to use.
Nason Timing kits are also mainly Taiwanese components with the exact same tensioner. Possibly with Russian bearings in some cases. They put some NTN bearings on the tensioner, and ship a real NTN pulley with the kit, as it has NTN Japan written on them to try and convince you that you're getting quality.. They also ship an Optibelt timing belt with the kit.
"Production start at Romanian site 2008
Inauguration of production site in China 2007
Production of finished polyurethane timing belts 2003
"
2 items in the kit are NTN and they are fairly cheap bearings with maybe $50. The rest is all weird ass parts from wherever, with unknown quality control.
Dude, you just validated my decision to pay a shop extra money for a genuine Subaru Timing belt kit and installation for my wife's 2010 Forester. I was looking at buying a Gates timing belt kit from Rock Auto but decided to go with the shop with the genuine Subaru kit where I got a 36 K mile/ 3 year warranty. Thanks Bro.
One thing to keep in mind about Amazon is that when you have something like a water pump fail, you can't warranty it through Amazon. I just ran into this on an '05 Grand Prix, 3.8L. They told me to go back to Gates directly and they require an online retailer warranty form you have to fill out and send in for a refund. Waaaaaaaaay too much trouble compared to Amazon returns. I couldn't return it since it was past their return time window. I just bought another one, but from ACDelco through RockAuto. it was only about $25, so not worth my time to deal with Gates. The Gates pump was Chinese too I believe. Bottom line: buy from somewhere that you can return it under warranty if you think you might ever have to, especially if it's expensive.
Great video, Ivan, thanks for posting it and alerting people out there to this problem.