Good one. Although I have to point out: I was on a business trip to Norway last year; my first trip to this country. I spent time in Tonstad, Agder and there were three or four different churches in this town of 800 people. And I slept at the only place where you could rent little huts to be self sufficient in the area, the Tonstadli Ferie, Kurs og Misjonssenter. At first I did not really recognize anything, but on the third day there came a youth group and they worshipped and prayed all over the place. A friend had met a Norwegian woman, married her and moved to Norway and since I had to go to a bigger center anyhow to apply for a Norwegian tax number, I visited them in Kristiansand and told them about this. Her reply: „AAAAAh …. you are living in THAT area.“ She called it the Norwegian bible belt.
@@Kref3: We do have a bible belt, but based on what you've told me, that conclusion was hasty. I am a very strong anti-theist, because the theists wants you do believe in people rather than divinities or the gifts they may have given us. I only care about the gift and not the giver. I worship the gift, I don't need to know where it came from. I can speak for Jesus Christus, Muhammed, Samson, Robin Hood or Hallvard Vebjørnsson. My job is to solve problems for the children. What other people say or feel, is of no concern of mine.
Hi Asthon, as a non-religious German who has been to the USA a number of times, I noticed that the way of living faith is different. In Germany, it is the basic religious values that we try to incorporate into our culture. That is why many social institutions, such as hospitals or kindergartens, are church-based. In the US, on the other hand, I have the feeling that it is more about practicing the rituals on a daily basis and following the written rules exactly. Another big difference is that science beats religion. In Germany you will find almost no one who denies the Big Bang or evolution and who really believes that God did it all in seven days. I experienced that differently in the USA, which frightened me quite a bit.
i guess it also comes from the two sides of view, from European one the Pilgrims of the Mayflower where Religious extremists at their time, from the point of American view there where ejected cause of their faith and for me i think the truth is somewhere in the middle. and from this point of "schism" both are developed differently...
@@All_in_for_JESUS Quite a strange statement, since science cannot be an object of belief. Hence, one cannot "believe" (or not believe) in science. Science is a system in which rationally acceptable, empirically or theoretically testable knowledge can be gained. This is pretty much the opposite of merely uncritically accepting any "truth" in the form of a religion.
@@SirHeinzbond Pilgrims were Puritans. They were the ISIS of 17th century Europe, led by Cromwell. Responsible for eliminating 40 % of Ireland's population in 4 years. English kicked them out and brought back the king!
As a German the idea of a daily pledge of allegiance is just completely crazy to me. If someone proposed children should start doing that here, I think most people would assume they are some kind of Nazi.
Why would you say that? As you know Adolf Hitler was a traitor to the Fatherland, he got a lot of Germans killed in World War II. Germany would have been in a lot better shape had Hitler not entered politics, there would have been no East Bloc or Cold War had it not been for Hitler. The Berlin Wall would not have been built had Hitler never rose to power. How do you come to the conclusion that Hitler was a patriot?
@@daniby9894 Italy lost the Roman Empire, and now we have the Russian Empire going into decline all because Communism ruined it. Why would Italy be interested in following in the footsteps of a declining empire. Communism led to Putin, and it's as simple as that, Russia isn't even good at conquering neighboring countries anymore, all they can do is commit random acts of murder and destruction with their long range weapons.
The difference being is in America, when we recite The Pledge of Allegiance, we are pledging our loyalty to our nation and to our compatriots. It isn't a pledge to a political party or to a leader. "I Pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands. One nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
@@thunderwalker2000 and that's called a nationalist or nationalism. And that's just the beginning. You need to do more research on the pledge and how is was implemented etc. Not all Americans will stand with you on your pledge.
From a newcomer, American Christian: I was raised as a Christian from two caring parents, but I left the church young and I was never truly old enough to understand what I was being taught. I knew God was love though, because it was what I was taught. So it always stuck with me that God is love. That Jesus loved. That we are to love, and forgive. But when I looked around, I saw a "Christian nation" that left human beings to starve on the streets, stepping over them like they were trash. I watched countless couples divorce, cheat on each other and lie to each other. I saw these supposed "Christians" praise our leaders and our military for every bomb dropped on another country, and I saw pure apathy for the countless poor souls across our planet who desperately needed help. I saw them happy to buy big houses and nice cars, and feel superior over people who couldn't. I often saw everything in people, besides Christ himself. It was later I realized, the image of Christ and his holiness had become nothing more than a status symbol for some people. They'd go to church or read a passage or two just to simply say they did. To feel that they were a part of this light, and others were not. Wearing God on your neck to some people here, may as well be like wearing a Gucci or Balenciaga bag. It is not what we say, but what we do that truly exposes our faith and our heart. Because of this very nature in America, I didn't want to believe what I was seeing was truly God. So I went searching myself for what these kinds of folk must have forgotten. John 13:34: "I give you a new commandment: love one another. Just as I have loved you, you must also love one another".
Thank you for your Belief. Lord Comfort and Bless you. Even on a Topic of Religion one could think there would be some light but you show light where you can Yes with Love! I'm Born Again.. The word Religious is too Ambiguous... Apparently The Lord does not have to be in that-sad... His Character is Key...The Christ. We are less afraid the more we Study His Book. As He submitted to The father we know how valuable Humility and Kindness are:)
So, your picture of God is framed by the actions of sinners ( which we all are according to the scriptures). Do yourself a favor, and don't walk into the Church doors with just your emotions, and leaving your brain in the jar beside the door.
Read some Scripture Mark...it's good for you Matthew 11:28-32...or 1 Corinthians 13:4-8. It's not who goes to "church" but HE created The Church which are those that Believe and Follow Him. He is The Backbone and I hardly knew till I was Born Again! John Chapter 3 HE exhorts Priest Nicodemus to follow Him. The Character of God is way above us. Emotion is fleeting. If your aim is to be divisive That is cruel or maybe funny to you but dying with our knowing Jesus Christ is far from funny. Lord Bless you Mark! He knows our every step to protect.
As a German, I look at it this way: The US seems to take Christianity very seriously, but only as long as it doesn't conflict with their other major religion - Capitalism. That's why there are no Sunday closings, religious holidays or church taxes.
You nailed it. Capitalism is the religion here. Despite the fairly liberal policies in the Bible (the early christians shared all things in common, or when Jesus plainly states that you cannot serve both God and money, or even the old testament teaching of the Jubilee), christians here are almost universally assumed to be conservatives. Christianity is hardly more than a wedge used to separate people by our political hacks or as an instrument of exclusion and oppression.
Many businesses choose not to be open on Sunday, as is their right. Chik-Fil-et drive throughs being one example. That's their right and their choice to be open or not for business. True freedom of religion. As for Capitalism, that too is a choice. It becomes a choice of what matters most, I suppose. Money or belief. Chik-Fil-et can make millions more on one day , (Sunday), if they stayed open for that day, but they made a belief choice choice in running their business not to do so. Just like when they chose not to hire homosexuals. It's their company and business. It's them taking the risk of losing or making money based upon what they feel is the correct thing to do. They either make money or not, based on their beliefs. If a Government says, "You must hire people that believe (in any controversial thing) and open your doors on a day you feel is a day of rest, then you can not do business here. That is against freedom of religion. Forcing a person, (or company), to adhere to the Government mandated non-religious philosophy and forcing them to do a thing that they do not believe is is tyrannical.
The thing to remember about courses on religion in European schools (in some countries at least) is that they are not courses on Christianity but on multiple religions.
That's what I was immediately wondering, since we had a class Levensbeschouwing in the Netherlands which basically is teaching you about different religions and philosophies
When I went to school (30 years ago) in Sweden religion was on the curriculum, and all major religions and some smaller was part of it, but if memory serves me right it was leaning more to christianity.
As an atheist German who grew up in the East and only moved to the South in his late twenties, I was astonished to actually meet (a handful of) people there who openly admitted to believing in God. It shook me, as I was convinced (from personal experience) that religion had been dead since WW2. When I then visited the USA for a few months in my thirties, I was blown away again by co-workers sharing religious psalms on facebook (where it was almost mandatory to "befriend" anyone you met in real life immediately) and even hearing them talk loudly about how abortion is sin, non-hetero-love is sin, not going to church on Sundays is sin etc.; Where I am from, this would cost you your job, or at least it would make you an outcast in any work setting. I like the amount of research and post-production you put into this video, thanks for that. I felt that you presented the American system way too chaste, though. From my experience, admitting to not believing in God is almost synonymous with committing societal suicide in the USA, definitely if you're a politician. That's surely the main reason why almost all Congressmen and Presidents have identified as Christian. On the German part, I barely recognized my country, but that may be just the difference in our respective points of view. Church holidays have almost no meaning to the average German, and besides Christmas and Eastern I bet that 90% could not even correctly explain what is being celebrated. Mostly those are traditional days off, where you use the free day to barbequeue and drink beer with friends, not even once thinking about anything religious. The church buildings themselves, to me, are exactly the same as the old castles. Historical heritage sites we need to preserve for their cultural and historical worth, not because they serve any function in today's world. I also felt that you overplayed the role of church tax in Germany. Only half the population is a member of one of the churches eligible for tax, and of those only a smaller part is still in the work age group. And even for them, church tax is quite limited, amounting to just 50-100 Euros a month on average. Yes, that's some money, but if you would tithe in church every Sunday, that would just amount to about 12-25 USD per person. Personally, if I was a church member, I would rather pay that than actually have to sit through an hour of sermon every Sunday. What I felt you missed in this video was the church bells. Many Americans told me they found it strange that even today, church bells would ring regularily at least once per hour, sometimes even four times per hour, in almost all German cities and villages. This is something I took for granted, even though for us it was purely for time keeping purposes. Still, a very well made video, and great handling of a potentially explosive topic.
I agree with a lot of what you said. I'm from Northern Germany and the idea that people nowadays are actually religious and would openly talk about believing in God didn't exist to me until I was a teenager who heard a Muslim girl talk about praying. The number of people who pray daily that she mentioned in the video actually kind of shocked me in how big it was. I also distinctly remember going to Southern Germany for the first time and thinking there had been a lot of tragic car accidents because of all the roadside crosses. I know that on paper, the separation between church and state sounds insufficient in Germany, but no politician, not even in the literal Christian party that ruled our country for years, would ever argue with Bible quotes or talk about God outside of strictly religious contexts. I also feel like the point that at a funeral, you'd be asked if you paid your taxes, was a bit overstated. Church membership does count for something, and that means paying the taxes, but there are a lot of things in daily life you can participate in that are church organised where noone asks about your official affiliations. There's no such thing as an ID showing your legal religion. This was such an informative and fascinating video on an interesting and complex topic.
@@mikefay5698 Well driving a car and cutting the grass are still much more sensible things to do than going to church; that's a serious waste of time !
My Canadian perspective is so different, I was in school in the 1950’s to 70’s, my kids from 70’s to 90’s and grand kids for the last 15 years. Not once has any of us taken a religious course of any sort in public schools in 2 provinces. Back in my day we did sing God save the Queen in assemblies and some sort of prayer for Remembrance Day assemblies. Politicians usually keep religious affiliations private and the majority of Canadians like it that way.
But I guess there are ethics classes in Canada, are there? Religion and personal beliefs shaped many societies to this day and therefore it is important to understand which ideas and theories are behind. This is what religion class in europe is all about. no one would ever ask you to say a prayer in this classes. this would be a reason to complain about the teacher, because it would just be wrong. they have to treat the topic of belief systems in a scientific way, just like a sociologist would do.
@ As far as Europe is concerned, it would be impossible to acquire any proper grasp of our history without some understanding of the religious divisions which have shaped it, and over which major wars have been fought. Instruction in a particular religion (unless you attend a specifically religiously affiliated, generally private, school) is a matter for "Sunday school", and organized by churches, synagogues and mosques themselves, not part of the public school curriculum.
To be fair, a lot of Americans say they “believe in the god of the bible”, then proceed to not know anything that’s written in the bible, except some popular verses.
@@zwojack7285 I didn’t really encounter a whole lot of issues. It might be different in the bible belt. But in Wisconsin most people just countered with “well, you aren’t a scholar, are you?”
er, that phrase may not be what you think it is... It's intended to clarify which god they follow. There are all sorts of people who claim to practice some sort of ethical belief system, yet the god they follow is clearly Bael. And expecting everyone to have memorized the entire bible word for word, as proof of their piety, is you applying very poor logic! 🤨 to something that you clearly do not understand at all.
@@jaspermartin7444 "I don't believe in Gott, Dio, Yah, Dios, Dieu, Allah, Yahweh, El or Jehovah. I believe in God, the one true God: the God that introduced Himself by that name in the American language." - Daniel (who, in a foreign tongue, was known as Belteshazzar)
A small perspective as a Frenchman that lives in Germany (North) for 10 years. I am a teacher so I can give a small perspective on the school aspect. I come from a culture (France) that has a hard separation between church and state. First of all, I am still very surprised and almost shocked at how widespread the church is in... everything, like the Kitas. I am always wary of the church. However the "religion" subject at school is another topic. It is not "bible school" at all. The teachers that do that had religious studies behind them and bring an academic understanding of religion as their main background. Of course, especially the catholic side, the church still controls partly who can become such a teacher, but all young teachers I met see this as a unwanted element that needs to go. The course itself, if done right, is very very far from a church sponsored catechism as it can be. I was surprised at how enriching a well made religion course is, and it has nothing to do with your personal faith. It is a course where students learn about religions in general and about associated ethics. I am definitely less opposed to that now that I saw it "in action" and it is important to understand that this really isn't catechism, it is a course about religion in general with an academic background of the teachers.
yes, precisely. It gives the children a base knowledge of the religion (mainly the one, that it is focused on, but other religions are discussed as well). But the religion is in no way forced on the children. The focus is on knowledge, not believe.
This is extremely important to understand. German "religion class" teachers have to study theology at a state university for several years. Theology is a scientific subject. You cannot compare that to the US at all where in rural Alabama a "religion class" in school would mean that some batshit crazy preacher from the local church with zero actual education on religious theory would come and preach in front of little children.
There is a strange "wrinkle" in the religious classes. The mandatory "trade schools" that every apprentice has to attend also have religious classes. However, it is completely voluntarily and your final marks at the end of school are calculated with religion or without it if you didn't participate. What that means is, if you get a D or worse in your religious class there is absolutely no incentive to stay in the class because it hurts your final mark. That leads to the teacher usually handing out Cs or better marks even if the person attending isn't doing anything in class whatsoever besides being there. Otherwise nobody would be there, making his class basically obsolete and his job.
Great video! I have to point out though that the church tax only applies if you are a member of a church and not just a citizen of Germany. A lot of people identify as Christian but don't want to pay for the dubious institutions of churches. Also the religion classes are not really worship based but more educational about what religions are about, what they want to teach, their history etc. So even as an agnostic I did enjoy those classes before I chose to switch them for ethics classes
Indeed, less than half of the German population is stil a member of the church and pays those church taxes. In fact an increasing number of Germans leave the church every year - in 2022 more than 900.00 alone (catholics and protestants combined).
Also notable that for many people, the church acts more like a social institution and/or service provider than an actual religion. People like to have a group they can identify with, moral guidance, and pastoral care, but that doesn't necessarily mean they genuinely believe the church's teachings, especially not literally. The notion of god as a divine being is more and more replaced by a much more abstract concept, something people "believe" into when it has some benefit for them.
One important detail: you can opt out of the general church tax in Germany, if you are not religious / atheist etc., or for example "exit" your church (as in excommunication as a catholic). However, a large part of the general taxes every citizen, no matter their religious affiliation (or lack thereof) pays, still goes to the churches regardless. The "church tax" as declared on your tax statements is just a small part of what the church actually receives from the state.
"Sometimes living in the United States feels like living in a bubble" Yeah this is interesting as (in my oppinion as a european) europeans of the 21st century are extreamly close-minded and unable to see things outside of their own experience. Lots of us europeans have simply replaced religion with secularism and lgbtq+ idiology. If you're raised in a conservative and/or religious community it's seen as "close-minded" or "in a bubble", but if you're raised in an equally close minded community where disagreement is seen as evil blasphemy but the bibles are replaced with rainbow-flags then that's 100% fine and not "bubbled" at all, just modern and progressive. Thoughts?
I don't know where you're getting the idea of LGBT+ acceptance being a cult. It's scientifically clear that being gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender, asexual etc is biologically natural and we can make life a lot better for everyone by accepting them for who they are without harming anyone.
I think there is one important issue that you missed, that't privacy. In Germany, it is very uncommon and truly regarded as inapporpriate to talk about your religious beliefs. You simply do not ask, question or quizz people's religion or religious beliefs. Debates on what you believe or should believe are unthinkable. Whilst the church has a strong role in public life, you hardly find priest on the TV arguing a particular religious point of view. Public advertisement for religion is nonexistent. Asking a friend or colleague to come join you for church service at "your" church is about as appropriate as suggesting to join his preferred swinger club. To me, the public pervasiveness of (basically Christian) religion and the open competition-style promotion of one's own religious views are the most striking cultrural differnces between Germany and the US.
Well, I find the more religious a person is, the more likely they are going to ask about it. Still remember a colleague of my mother visiting Bavaria and getting asked by the boarding house owner what religion she has, when she arrived. She answered that she doesn't have one and the owner was like "How can you not have a religion?!". I always though to myself that I would have picked up my belongings and left for another boarding house or hotel, as it wasn't the owner's damn business. I also have colleagues that are religious, believing in a god but in their own way, not necessarily being part of a specific church. Everytime they are telling me stories and hinting at their believes, it makes me feel uncomfortable as I don't really want to start telling them that I don't believe in magic man. Especially odd when you have professors in scientific fields that require logic, that believe in something so illogical. Btw, I saw poster ads for "Bibel TV" or something like this near where we lived before. So there as some religious advertisements in Germany after all. Not man though.
Maybe. But it's also that we just don't care about religion. If someone asked me join them at their church I have to assume it's a crazy person that wants me to become a member of a cult.
As a naturalized citizen in the USA (originally from the Netherlands) I’ve become more anti religion over time as a result of the in your face religiousness that exists here. Many people here will point out the religious extremism that exists in other parts of the world, but don’t seem to have a clue that the same goes on here. The hypocrisy is rather mind blowing. As time goes on, I appreciate the secular societies more and more! One more thing….the “under god” in the pledge of allegiance was something that was added during the 1950s when the red scare was on full tilt display.
"They hate religious extremism in other parts of the world but are hypocrites because the same thing happens here!!!" Oh sorry, I didn't realize radical Christians are driving around in trucks with turrets mounted in the bed, walking the streets with AK47s, and starting insurgency wars with local and national authorities. But according to you, that's happening.
From a German perspective the American religious practice is really "jumping into the face". Here in Germany anybody telling you unasked about his god is just seen as an annoying oddball and most people don't discuss the topic at all, because telling each other about how little they care doesn't make an interesting conversation. Because of this, the idea of public prayer not only feels strange, but even like forcing the believe onto others.
We do not say, "jumping into the face". We say in your face or hits you (square) in the face or is really in your face. Because in Germany, everyone has become agnostic/atheist, your nation has abandoned the basis of European civilization and greatness, post ancient Rome and Greece.
@@richardlahan7068 ...see, thats the second problem I have with many religious. They too often seem to reply to their own assumtions, rathen then to what is actually said..
When, years ago, I lived in a Bavarian city, I suffered a serious personal crisis. My own religion had shunned me but I found solace in attended mass in the local cathedral. I understood some German and I was impressed by the singularity of the message I heard there. Everything focused on Jesus and his preaching. Not politics, not psychology, not entertainment. Today 45 years later I belong to a Protestant church in the USA. I think the presence of a formal church in Germany contributed.
Thank you for sharing. I think it's very interesting that you believe that Jesus was not political and that his teaching is not relevant to politics, psychology, or art today. As a Catholic I don't understand how anyone who studies Christianity could reach such a conclusion, including in Bavaria. I hope that your new church is enriching for you in other ways though. God bless!
As a Christian German I am always astounded by how much religion is used as an argument point in political discussions in the US. Take the very recent change in abortion law for example, there were very loud voices from the religious community bringing their beliefs in as arguments. I have also seen this in other discussions in the US, but very rarely in Germany. Which is astounding to me, because as you said you have a separation of state and government and we don't. Nevertheless even as a Christian in German I would never use my personal beliefs to argue a side in a political discussion, because I realise that my beliefs can't be the reason everybody is forbidden or allowed to do something. And I don't mean to imply that American Christians don't share this standpoint but there is (or at least appears to be) a (maybe small I don't know) group of very loud and seemingly very influencing Christians leading public political discussions. And that's something that's far quieter in Germany in my experience, even though we have a Christian party (CDU) - I actually have never seen them use the bible as an argument, though. If other Germans disagree, please correct me, I certainly don't live in the most religious parts of the country so I might not have seen it for that reason, also I'm only one person and of course can only offer my perspective (which might be inconclusive).
I agree, you describe this very well. Its funny, how during lunch its no problem at all to discuss politics and still enjoy each others company and viewpoints here in Germany. In the US this was almost not possible, because people were afraid to hurt other peoples feelings.
"Nevertheless even as a Christian in German I would never use my personal beliefs to argue a side in a political discussion, because I realise that my beliefs can't be the reason everybody is forbidden or allowed to do something." I don't think that that perspective holds water, because in liberal democracies, people vote to forbid and allow things based on beliefs that they know their fellow citizens do not hold, all the time, if it were otherwise, then unanimous consent would be required to forbid or allow something, which is not how any liberal democracy works as far as I know.
@@Sewblon I disagree. Most other choices, votes etc I decide on personal beliefs, yes, but those are, at least for me, based on scientific research. When I decide my political position regarding climate change, economics or social politics, sure those are my personal beliefs, but founded on the belief that we need a planet in 50 years or that everyone should have food and shelter. I think that's a big difference to basing decisions on the will of an entity I believe exists but have no actual proof on.
Scientific research is subject to interpretation, so unless you're actually *the* bigbrain scientist yourself running all the equations and doing the interpreting that is then broadcast by the media apparatus, yeah, you are functionally still operating on what you believe to be legitimate.
@@Pheephy27 Proof isn't what defines science. Not unless you are talking about mathematics. The theory of general relativity is science. But, its also likely to be incorrect, because it can't explain how gravity works at the sub atomic scale. So its clearly not proven or verified. The idea that everyone should have food and shelter, is really not accessible to proof or scientific investigation in any way that the idea that God exists is not accessible to proof or scientific investigation. We can prove that everyone should have food and shelter or that god exists if we just assume all the necessary assumptions. Scientific investigation could easily illuminate the truth or falsehood of any of those assumptions in either case. So, I think that you are drawing the line between science and non-science in a way that does not hold up under scrutiny.
I’m French and visited the US in May. Three guys in the streets of Chicago stopped me to ask me if I believe in God, then when I said no they tried to give me arguments to reconsider my belief. It wasn’t rude or anything and very interesting, but you wouldn’t never see that in France.
@@ShomoGoldburgler I've never known Muslims to proselytize in quite the same way as Christians. Religion also isn't a very public matter for most people in a lot of countries other than the US, so it is very weird to come up to someone in public and start talking about religion. In Canada a lot of people are religious but there are a lot of different religions and we consider it to be generally a private matter that you are free to practice but we accept that everyone is different and religion is not a matter of debate so we don't usually talk about it.
@@DevynCairns Islam is being proselytized in schools, libraries etc. Imams and faithful are looking for new converts. More French people have accepted Mohammed over Jesus in their lives in the last 10 years. They may not be with the cardboard signs in the streets, but they still look for converts.
Walking down a main street of Paris one afternoon I was touched in a sexual way three different times in like two hours! We often notice the things that are different that we don't like.
Thank you for giving us this unique perspective of the contrast betwe the religious culture in the US and Germany. As a colombian, the latin american perspective on christianity, generally speaking, is also a different world from what christianity means in other parts of the World.
I'm a German living in Greece. I grew up catholic, but very liberal. My parents both had taken some distance from the catholic church before I was born, even though my mother had studied catholic theology and had worked for the catholic church some years. - Or maybe because of that? I think in Germany religious education in schools plays a big role in secularism in Germany. Because we're taught about religion in an academic way we also encounter critical thoughts about our religion and we learn about other religions, too and can compare. We're not taught to follow the book, we're encouraged to help others, to be generous, honest, brave and forgiving in our actions no matter who the other person is. We're not threatened with hell or promised to be rewarded by paradise. Instead we're taught that God is love. So I think German kids grow up with much less fear and shame connected to faith, which makes it easier to doubt the religious institutions themselves, even though you might believe in God. I think another thing about Germany is, we're not isolated in certain communities. We grow up with children that have a different religion or are atheist. And they are our friends. So I think there's less social pressure than in certain areas in the US that are culturally more homogeneous.
Good points. I wonder if Ashton found any current statistics on this topic: US citizens who actually believe in hell or satan or the "BAD". At least when watching movies you always hear about damnation, being saved, going to hell and similar concepts that could be heard in Germany maybe in the 1950s by some old people but not today.
@@anitapenkert389 yep. In our religion course, we talked about the concepts of heaven and hell and how one may theologically interpret them. It was quite the revelation (haha) to see that hell would be living as distant and removed from god as possible while heaven would be the opposite - a really clore "relationship" with the divine, leading to a feeling of stability and security next to a "good shepherd". Take that compared to the fearmongering people who spread the belief that hell means literally burning soul for eternity and being tortured by satan. And did I mention that "religionskritik" (criticizing religion, especially christian religion) was part of the curriculum?
Agree Helga. I add as we lernt the origin that involve geography and history, we can think in a critical way, more we learn and recherche, more we take our own decisions. In Spain is similar, we decide to pay or not taxes but we're still in our own little bubble. youngs are changing that, even my mother did it. We used to go...At the moment that you think on your own you change into be good, respect, and help, that's all. Why to spend time and give money? Spain is full with properties even castles, when they lost interest, they sold. The last time I went was enough for me, It was winter, I was sitting, after few min I realized that they had put a lot of heat machines even up in both sides on the walls and columns just for the them. They were warm and was chilling. Enough is enough. Apart other things we know in Europe for sure not in US.
LOL! A god who doesn't punish sin or reward faithfulness, doesn't require you to be faithful to Him or require you to live righteously is NOT a god of love. He is basically Satan.
@@beatlesrgear a God who is love doesn't need to punish. People punish themselves when they don't live in love but in hatred, because they live in misery. Love is the key. A mother would give her life for her child out of love, not out of fear. Love is the strongest feeling, we have and hatred is the desire to experience love when we're unable to do so. So God is love and hatred is Satan. Whoever thinks God/Love needs to inquire Fear to exist in a person's heart, has not experienced the gift of unconditional, true love. Instead he's corrupted by Satan, who made him believe that violence and hatred lead to Love.
I am Italian, and not 100% familiar with the German system, but we used to have mandatory religion classes in Italy as well. In the beginning, they were taught only by priests and really intended to teach Catholicism in school, but nowadays they are mostly taught by non-affiliated teachers and they cover the topic of religion and religious beliefs much more broadly. Also, like in Germany, we can opt out. Oh, and we used to have a mandatory "church tax" as well, but now we are able to choose whether we want to give to money to the Catholic church or other religious or non-religious entities, such as NGOs.
Yeah in Germany religion classes are basically handled the same way. As in, a non-affiliated teacher talks about various religions and religious beliefs. Although depending on the teacher there can be quite the Christian bias (Which is probably not too surprising).
Here in Finland we have classes about religion in all schools, too, but nowadays they are, like you say in Italy, not supposed to promote belief into any particular god. But because they *used* to be for indoctrinating kids into Christian values and the teacher were the same before and after the law changed it has taken some time for it to become actual reality.
@tHe0nLyNeXuS could you still have your children baptized or marry in a church after not paying church tax anymore? Because in Germany you can also choose to not pay church tax, but that automatically means that you cannot be involved in or do any church related "activities" such as baptism or church weddings.
@@patriciarehermann6625In Italia, there is the otto per mille that means eight on one thousand of your Irpef (personal income tax) could go to a church, but it is not mandatory and people could also not express that preference or express the preference for the Italian State. In fact it is just a fiscal option expressed in your tax declaration. No one would be excluded anytime and anyway by Catholic organisations or from a religious function or service if this contribution is not paid. It would be unthinkable to exclude someone just for not having paid that amount.
Prague is the perfect example of how most (especially young) Europeans see religion today. There is a church on every corner in Prague while Prague being the capital city of the LEAST religious country in the world. Europeans see churches and religion in general as part of our culture and history but not necessarily something we need to keep practicing/following. It's kind of the same as castles. We do take care of them because they are part of our history but we don't follow or worship the leaders/royal families who built those castles
Born in 1946 into a very Catholic environment in Cologne, religion was an important part of life. For my parents it was normal that I had to visit Catholic schools, and church attendant at least on Sundays was a duty. Both churches had a big influence on people's life. In the mid 1960's this started to change. More and more people officially left the church, mainly to safe paying the church tax. I have lived in Germany for 50 years, and in my memory 'church' and 'fun' were mutually exclusive. Church was always serious. For me, religion and normal life were two completely unconnected different things. In 1996 I moved to the UK, and there I realized a very different behaviour (mainly Church of England). Going to church seemed to be for most people something like a social event. Most of the congregation knew each other, and after the service they had a meeting with tea and cake. The minister said good bye to everyone in person. And the church buildings are used for other purposes as well, like concerts, bazaars, antique fairs etc.; something unthinkable in Germany. In 2005 I moved to Cyprus. Here the situation is still very different. Most Cypriots see themselves as full members of the Orthodox church. But services are completely different. At the front are the priests and one 'representative' of the people. They perform their rites in a singing way, and that can go on for hours. The 'normal' visitors of the church don't really understand what is going on around the altar, and they don't care. They talk to each other, and go out and then come back in again. It is not unusual to be on the mobile phone or have a cigarette in the church. In my view (and with my background) this seems quite lacking some respect. From the US - I have been there only for about 3 weeks in the Boston area - I don' t know anything from experience and only what I have seen on TV. There are services with the people singing and dancing, like in a disco. And there are the 'professional' preachers, for whom this is a business. Both I find quite shocking.
It should not be forgotten that in the 17th century many people who were unable to live out their religious beliefs in Europe emigrated to North America and made up a relatively high proportion of the settlers there. Seen in this light, it is not surprising that the proportion of deeply religious communities in North America is significantly higher than in Europe.
The European states' historical discrimination of religious minorities is also a reason why Americans are opposed to the idea of any influence of the state regarding their religious communities. They'd typically disapprove of religious education in public schools and the state meddling in church finances.
@@skayt35 fun-fact, the only Founding Father who was Catholic, Charles Carroll of Carrollton, was the driving force behind adding Freedom of Religion to the Bill of Rights. Anti-Catholicism runs very deep in American history. Before the establishment of the First Amendment protection for religious liberty, it was illegal to build Catholic churches in most states. If you want to learn more about the long history of bigotry against Catholics in the US I would recommend "Anti-Catholicism in America: The Last Acceptable Prejudice" by Mark Massa.
Visiting relatives in the US for the first time as a 12-year old my biggest culture shock was being invited to go to church. I asked if there was a funeral, because to my mind that was the only reason anybody under 65 or so would ever go to church (it was a summer holiday, so I was pretty sure it wasn't Easter or Christmas). I grew up in the Netherlands, not in one of the small areas where church attendance is socially mandatory. My grandparents regularly attended, and people of their generation were, to my knowledge, the only people I knew who did. Yet still most of the adults I knew would still describe themselves as Christians. In fact, so did my parents, yet we didn't have a bible in the home. Christianity, in large parts of the Netherlands, has very little direct impact on the lives of most people, its presence is indirect. Many norms and values preached by the church(es) for centuries have become secularized social values held by self-described Christians, non-religious people and people following different religions from Christianity alike. As such, Christianity is influential still, despite secularization, despite official separation between church and state.
Believing in God and going to church don't really have anything to do with each other. For my part, I can live my faith better without having to have a pastor in church give me advice every Sunday on topics that have nothing to do with him and about which he has little knowledge. How do I get there? In the early 1980s, our pastor needed to clearly point out in his sermon which cross he would expect from a "good" Christian in the next election. Since then I have had nothing to do with the church institution and left as soon as I could. That is my experience and I know many people who attribute their leaving the churches to similar “expressions of opinion”. In addition, I do not support certain attitudes of the church on, for example, abortion, euthanasia and many other things and do not want to finance more than is absolutely necessary.
When I was a child in a catholic region, we'd have fish fingers on Fridays instead of meat, but I never even realized why until much later when I had already stopped believing. We mostly went to church on Christmas eve and for weddings and funerals. I went to a catholic school because it was across the street from our house. The catholic part consisted of one morning prayer which was a hail Mary or Our father, depending on the teacher's preference. We practiced for first communion in the school gym a few weeks before the event and had our priest show up for one hour each week to tell us about Bible stories. Add going to church with the whole class on good Friday and that was the totality of the catholic experience in that school. Nobody cared if you went to church or not. To be honest, I think that comes a lot closer to how Jesus is supposed to have told his followers to worship than what I see from US habits. But then I have also heard that priests who put the bits about giving to others in their sermons were told that that sort of commie propaganda had no place in a church 🤦
There are no norms and values preached by the church that became secularized. Church was against equal rigths men and women, against equality betwenn noblesse & clergy men versus peasants. Church was against public schools, against everything our modern life is worth living.
@@cr55872 How can you be a follower of Christ if you do not know who Christ is? And how could you know who Christ apart from his body, the Church through whom the Bible was canonized and by whom God works for mutual encouragement onto right worship? I should point out Hebrews 10:24-25 as one example of many that illustrates the essential role community has in Christian practice. From the early days, Christians have been meeting together as the Church. When reading your comment, I can't help but grieve inwardly. It's clear you had a bad experience with a pastor, perhaps a whole congregation. I would ask though, that you not pin the folly of this one onto the whole Church and that you not give up, but bear with us others in love. (Ephesians 4:2) As for how to find a good Church, my advice would be this: seek a Church that preaches the Gospel as in the Bible, not for one that necessarily agrees with you politically, but one whose first political word is love and honest dialog. Also, no less importantly, don't just show up on Sundays for the sermon and leave as soon as service ends. Join a small group, get to know some people, and find a community that will encourage you. I apologize if this comes across as a lecture. I truly want what is best for you and having grown up in a Church that has nourished me toward godliness my whole life, having read Paul's letters and the book of Acts wherein the Church is clearly described as a central part of the Christian life, I cannot help but reach out to you with a ridiculously long comment on TH-cam of all places. If you have read 2 Corinthians 10, it is in that spirit that I write to you, though of course, I wouldn't claim Paul's apostolic authority. If you've read, thank you for bearing with a little foolishness. May the God of all παρακλησις, the παρακλητος, lead you into all truth and into communion with him as I too am with him.
I had religion class in school as a Catholic in Germany. First we just looked at the bible, but later on religion class was more looking at other religions and learning about them. Also we were also discussing a lot of topics like death penalty and similar topics
Being a Christian, a Lutheran, but neither American nor German, but Swedish, I think I can add even more confusion by relating what happended in Sweden (please delete if you find it irrelevant). Sweden (which did not really exist then) was christened by Ansgar, a monk sent out from Bremen in what was eventually to become Germany, around AD 1 000, to Birka, then a settlement on an island in Mälaren. He was - of course - a Catholic, so Sweden became Catholic. Enter, on 23 June 1523 (500 years ago!) king Gustav Wasa, the first king of what is now and has been ever since, Sweden. One of his followers was a clergyman, Olaus Petri, who set about to translate the Bible from latin to "Swedish", thus making God´s word avaliable to the people, following the example of Luther. Olaus Petri came in handy as far as getting rid of the Papal dominance. So Gustav confiscated whatever the church posessed. He needed the money and took it. Ever since till 2020 the Swedish Lutheran Church, is "free". There is no ministry of eccleciastics anymore. But after 1 000 years the bonds are still there. There are thousands upon thosands of churches, many of them medieval, not being religious edifices only. but part of Swedish history. Thus, the state pays (not nearly enough) for the upkeep of the treasures of churches around the country. As to finances: There is no longer a "church tax". But membership fees to the Church of Sweden is collected via the state tax system. In my parish the fee is 0.87 SEK per 100 sek earned. Apart from that, a "funeral fee" must be paid by everyone with a taxable income, be you a Christian, a Muslim, a Buddist, a Shintoist, an Ateist or whatever. Hans Strömberg, Stockholm, Sweden
I'm neither American or German, I'm Canadian, and I just wanted to comment that most Canadians are amazed, and not in a positive way, at how much religion affects most aspects of America.
I cannot help myself but to highlight that even a Canadian is referring to the US as "America" - considering that Canada is a part of teh same (even sub) continent😄
stick to Canada Eh? No one cares how secular Canada is. America was FOUNDED upon religious freedom...So why is it a shock it's a religious nation? It's founders described us as a Judeo Christian nation. This entire thread and video only provides proof how far to the left and secularized America has become in the last 50 years from where it was.
@@cheswick617 I'm so glad to see you're such a proud believer in your country's own prized first amendment constitutional rights. Which, by those very rights lets me tell you to shut your ignorant mouth.
religious education in germany is about religion itself, it's nature. it's not there to convert children into christians or any other religion. you learn there about the bible and such, but also about other religions like hinduism, buddhism, judaism or islam. and it goes even further and educates about the dangers of religions. about the fanatism that can be spread by every religion.
Since when? When i was in school we had catholic or evangelic religon class and at least the teacher for the catholic class had to be approved by the church. I was forced into the catholic class and we had to read the bible up and down, it wasnt education about religion in general, it was intoctrination to be a "good" catholic sheep
We learned primarily about christianity, but it was a normal, albeit enthusiastic teacher. But also remember visiting a mosque, so there's that. But even if it was christianity-tinted, it was a place for discussions, and oh boy did we discuss. Most fun classes were listening to the teacher and a student (who was strongly atheistic) argue about religion. And the student COULD argue well, so it got pretty heated, but I love that it was a good place for discussion. Also note it was a christian school, not a public school, so that might be part of it (they usually are a bit higher quality, even though both are free)
As a German pastor (with quite some international experience) I found this very interesting. My 2 cents: The global influence of (primarily evangelical) USAmerican Christianity can hardly be overestimated, be it in terms of theology and church practice - and politics. For better or worse we have been influenced by the likes of Billy Graham, Bill Hybels or - Mike Pence. Even the "other side" like Nadia Bolz-Weber, post-Evangelicals or the "New Small Church" movement is largely dominated by USAmericans. That's just how it is. The two things that is rather disconcerting to most of us outside the USA are: 1. How irreconcilable the two political factions are, especially when it comes to faith based moral convictions (or what people might consider so). Is it even fathomable to be "pro-life" and "pro public health system" at the same time? 2. The religious nationalism, to the point of seeing the USA as the one divinely chosen nation (chosen for whatever purpose?). Can they even think the thought that all that might be is narcissism?
The U.S. is a very proud nation, a fact that I, as a citizen who is a devout Christian, is not proud of but rather mourns, because God RESISTS the proud, but gives grace to the humble. The other thing to understand, and I can say this definitively as a citizen descended from the enslaved Africans who built the fundamental capital here: U.S. Christendom is hopelessly compromised on the institutional level, which is why it behaves in a narcissist manner, having NEVER set itself apart from that strain of thinking that the vast majority of human beings are just chattel to be used up for profit. U.S. Christendom boasts of 1620, but refuses to acknowledge 1607 and 1619. So, of course one can be pro-life but not for pro public health system: the hypocrisy is baked in. Of course one can read the U.S. into every prophecy in Scripture, never mind that the country is too young to be in there, and if in there, would be condemned clear through from the prophets to Revelation 18: the pride is baked in. This is not to say that there are not Christians serving the Lord and one another and getting past the common quarrels to live a quiet and peaceful life here -- there are many, but we are by no means the ones that get the attention, and increasingly, we are being called out of the institution in terms of how we live and serve.
@@hymnodyhands When I read your comment including the reference to Rev 18, something (maybe the Holy Spirit?) made me think you might be interested in this fascinating book: Reading Revelation responsibly by Michael J. Gorman. I think you will like and be intrigued by how Gorman reads the book of Revelation in regard to USAmerican culture.
God has smiled upon US for nearly 250 years. We founded three military branches while beating back, twice the world's most formidable fighting force at the time. In fact, one of our Founding Fathers said the following: "Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." - John Adams. Furthermore, my Nation... the United States of America was founded by Europeans for said at a time when the majority were for of Christain. So, it should be no surprise that religion and patriotism are so intertwined on the Chridtian Left and Right.
This isn't anything new. Capitalism also plays a heavy role. As far back as at least the 1910/1920s in America, capitalism in many places was thought of as being as the biggest Christian virtue imaginable. There were people literally claiming the Jesus was the first capitalist. Being a good businessman and making lots of money was through a very impressive feat of mental gymnastics conflated with being a good Christian. Which is like _literally_ the opposite of what Jesus said. I mean if you can convince people of that, then you can really convince them of anything. If you understand this long tradition then people like the televangelists and megachurch leaders make a whole lot more sense.
I am Christian, conservative, and vehemently against the idea of a Church Tax. Firstly, note the way Paul talks about charity in 2 Corinthians 8-9, one of my favorite passages: "For they gave according to their means, as I can testify, and beyond their means, of their own accord, begging us earnestly for the favor of taking part in the relief of the saints-and this, not as we expected, but they gave themselves first to the Lord and then by the will of God to us... Each one must give as he has decided in his heart, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver." -2 Corinthians 8:3-5 and 9:7, ESV Secondly, God, and therefore we his ambassadors, (2 Cor 5:20) do not seek mere service-financial, ritual, or anything else. We seek the heart, to capture every mind. (2 Cor 10:5) Commanding money from the masses, even by the most democratic tyranny, the tyranny of the majority, is not right, just as God has shown it not to be right to command our resources to himself by any means besides voluntary acts of love and worship. If mere appearances were what God loved, David's brother, whose name I don't even remember, would have been the great king of Israel. If appearances were what God praised, Christ would not have called the religious leaders of his day "whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and everything unclean". (Matt 23:27) As Christ also says, "Woe to you Pharisees! For you tithe mint and rue and every herb, and neglect justice and the love of God. These you ought to have done, without neglecting the others." (Luke 11:42) Now, a Christian might read all this and still think that a Church Tax, whatever its impurity, is exactly the tool we need to effectively carry out the Great Commission with which we've been tasked to carry out in this less than perfect world. Idealism, empty piety, and foolishness will not work in the real world. To that I have two responses, one symbolic and the other scriptural. This foolishness derided, this impotency trampled is the same that hung that man of sorrows, the lamb of God, on his cross. His death, his weakness as the spiritual powers must have considered it, became by resurrection the life that he now has and that we have in him. Many Martyrs throughout the Church's history testify to this same power. For my second point, I will let Paul speak: "Therefore, having this ministry by the mercy of God, we do not lose heart. But we have renounced disgraceful, underhanded ways. We refuse to practice cunning or to tamper with God’s word, but by the open statement of the truth we would commend ourselves to everyone’s conscience in the sight of God." -2 Corinthians 4:1-2, ESV And also: "Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things." -1 Corinthians 13:7, ESV Obviously, this is a long comment. I would love to hear your thoughts as well, especially those of you who live in a country that already has a Church Tax.
I am shocked that a church tax exists anywhere. Everybody knows that you don't bite the hand that feeds you. By taking tax money, churches are tying themselves to that source. If the government decides that the church needs to do something in order to continue receiving funds, the church has to decide whether to stay true to its values or be beholden to a government that may or may not have it's best interests at heart.
Church tax is definitely needed given the billions of dollars religious organisations (Catholic Church and Orthodox church) have. It has nothing to do with your personal beliefs just a monetary thing.
@@brianimpecoven3270 It doesn't work that way. The German "IRSs" collect church taxes and pass them on to the respective churches and charge them for these services rendered. Should the state impose something on the churches they don't like they always can terminate their agreement with the state and collect the taxes themselves. But there are quite some funds churches receive from taxpayers' money: in some states, bishops are paid for by the state. And - contrary to what is said in the video - 95% of social institutions (kindergartens, hospitals, retirement homes etc.) are paid for by general taxes. Church taxes only pay for the small chapels in these institutions.
Thank you very much for taking up that topic! Religion is always hot to handle and I guess that's why most of the vlogs of US-imigrants in germany don't talk a lot about that. But it is a big issue in our cultural differences. I am a lutheran christian from Germany and honestly, when I look at the US I somehow feel very uncomfortable with that mixture of nationalism and christianity growing in the US. Sometimes it seems like even though both sides confess to the Christ they don't share the same values. My church has services for same sex marriage, we actively do take care for the enviorment and climate change, and we give asylum to refugees. And this all is related with faith and the bible, but it seems US and German christians have different ways of reading the bible. I would love to see more videos from you about that. Especially on topics like: "Kirchenasyl" or "Trauung für gleichgeschlechtliche Paare" or "ökofaire Gemeinde" Thanks for all the work! Your videos are always amazing!
The contrast between how much help Christian church communities are offering to refugees (most of them Muslims) and the anti-refugee stance of German political parties with "Christian" in their name is so striking.
It depends a lot on Christian denomination and even local congregation. Which Synod of Lutheran would likely make a difference. ELCA or ASNA (have not been Lutheran for years and not sure of current recombinations) would likely agree with you and the Episcopal Church, most Methodists and (UPC). Presbyterians, American Baptist Convention, and UCC. However the more conservative wing of each flavor of Christianity would disagree…Lutheran CWS,LCMS; most Southern Baptist Convention, many non-denominational churches and Very Reformed Churches. Many Anglican and Episcopal churches that left TEC over ordination of women and LGBTI some years ago. Charismatic/Pentecostal churches can also be theologically conservative but sometimes more liberal. Orthodox churches I think vary. Every group brought their own faith and then divisions arose!
I lived in the US for a year as a teenager and was part of a pentacostal church and you might be able to understand the culture shock I got, growing up as a german 'catholic' (going to church a few times every year). The music, the prayers, the band, the... devotion of everyone. I was... shocked. Beyond shocked. That was a long time ago and over the years I've come to the conclusion that when we talk about "religion" americans and germans mean quite different things. Or at least it has a very, very different taste to it. I always had the impression that over here in Germany it is treated more like a philosophy: Religion might be a compass in questions of morale, a metaphor to learn from, old stories giving counsel. You can discuss them with your neighbour and you can disagree or pick different aspects and you'll still drink you beer together and sleep through the church bells on sundays. Celebrate the holidays, be a part of the parade, play an instrument, go to the service on christmas, ignore the rest. ;-) In the US I had quite a different experience. Religion seemed to be private in the sense that you should rather not discuss yours with anyone for fear of offending anyone or getting in a fight. Faith was measured in how well you believed the pastor's interpretation of bible verses. It seemed very rigid to me, the bible reduced to rules and mindsets you had to live by, leaving no room for discussion among the people themselves. To me (coming from a relaxed 'might or might not be true' kind of faith) this seemed extreme and dogmatic. SO when americans are so shocked that we have a class in school called "religion" I can understand their horror - but they can't know that it is more often like english class would be or like philosphy maybe. We compared parts of the bible to older greek stories, we learned about buddhism and islam and judaism, we compared, we discussed - it was far from bible study. In fact, I think if the US-School system had anything like it, there'd be a lot less tension between atheists and christians (and others). To me it seemed that the trenches were quite deep between my christian friends and classmates and my atheist friends. Like they would politely talk to each other but no more than that. ((side note, when I went to elementary school our teachers DID lead us in prayer every morning and there was a cross in every classroom... bavaria... not sure if that's still a thing. My cousins in northern germany were shocked :D)) Church taxes... are (expecially as a catholic with all the "recent discoveries") VERY frustrating. But - unlike in megachurches - the money doesn't go directly to the priests and they become super rich. This money pays for KiTas, Hospitals, Hospices, care-institutions and... the pope?! I guess?! So that's nice, because then I don't have to pay my hospital bill, or KiTa or whatever... Now, don't get me wrong, there's this weird idea that if the state simply took all that public care stuff back into their hands and pays for it with our normal taxes, we wouldn't at the same time fund old and dusty, power-abusing institutions - I know, I know. And I'm all for this new idea. But seeing as we still pay reparations from 200 years ago, I have little hope that this new idea will come through.
As far as I know the Christian social Institutions Like Kitas und Hospitals are still mostly funded by state or municipal subsidies. Only the Administration is paid by the church itself. But don't quote me on that😉
Regarding the church taxes. You have the choice in Germany to pay or not pay church taxes. Just go to the Rathaus (City Hall) and declare that you are not affiliated with a church and you pay no church taxes.
It's because of different approach on bible. I'm born again Catholic in Indonesia, and this is what I learned between Catholic and Evangelical: Evangelical may follow Bible to the words literally. (The interpretation of Bible depends on the church leaders. Sometimes different from each other). Catholic interpret Bible contextually. This is why you feel that Evangelical more rigid than Catholic.
Yes european religious education would get huge pushback in the us. From rightwing evangelicals. European style re classes, teach about what multiple religions believe, in an unbiased way. The history and culture. Even about lack of religiosity. Nothing that cannot be proven is taught as fact.i am from the uk, it's rare to meet anyone under 40 who is a christian. My local church got converted into a cafe, because of a lack of attendees.
My parents are baptists, once as a kid I found a book my dad had about a fathers role in raising kids in a godly way (according to thier sect of christianity). I was very confused about why it said to pull kids out of any lesson on world religion, my mom said its to keep us from converting to another religion. Luckily they never followed through on that, but my mom was pretty pissed that I learned about the muslim population in China cuz my school didnt demonize them.
@@pertoor i will give them I was like 8 or 9 when this happened, and my mom is now far more open with her beliefs around creationism and is probably the only reason I never got the 'dinosaurs were faked by satan' talk. My parents are both young earth creationists but at least my mom does her research, whether or not I believe it I can respect that
In Northern Germany, growing up in the 80s/90s, we had a choice between Religion and Ethics as a class, but basically the two were almost the same. In Religion class, we were actually taught about Religions, not about our belief and catechism. I had some great teachers who taught as a lot about Judaism, Buddism and the history of our church and I don't regret taking part in it, despite having been agnostic all of my life. I don't recall ever being taught actual "bible truths" and being expected to believe them.
Ethics as a class is also supposed to teach you everything about all religions. Their history, their beliefs and their traditions. But it is not supposed to take a side.
@@dnocturn84 Religious classes don't really take a side either, unless you are taught at a religious school or by a really old-school catholic teacher. Most of those teachers spend a lot of time discussing all aspects of Christianity, including the more questionable aspects of it. Frankly, as someone who had both Religion and Philosophy at different points, there wasn't much of a difference in those classes, except that Philosophy had less history in it.
@@klamin_original Really? Is that true? Maybe things have changed today (I'm pretty sure they did), but Religion as a subject, back in my school days (1990-2000), was taught by a teacher, who also was a priest, who was approved by the church. Sure, my classmates did also learn about other religions out there, during these lessons. But their emphasis was definitely on Christian belief. I had multiple substitution hours with this teacher (propably because there was no one else available), even though I choose Ethics class and being Atheist, and all of them turned into hardcore Christian teaching lessons, including forcing us to pray. I remember leaving this classroom at some point during all of his lessons, because this wasn't ok. Later I had a girlfriend, whose aunt was a Religion teacher and priest as well. She just lectured at different schools, so I never met her in my school. And she basically did the same. She even directly stated, that her mission is, to bring the young ones to their belief. And that she would use any chance to do that, within the restrictions of our rules. She is still out there today, working at 3 (or 4) schools right now.
@@dnocturn84 Must have been a catholic religion class... - In the 1970s, before Ethics as a course alternative appeared, the protestantic religion class covered a wide range of topics of social life, history (including Christian), Christian and other religions. The teacher had to have a degree in divinity, be member of the church and had to be approved by the church, but nothing else - no priest. I remember we discussed topics like the influence of the space age on working life and society. DISCUSSED. More than in any other course.
The biggest culture shock for me with respect to religion was moving to Virginia (from various Midwestern states) where I first experienced Christian Fundamental Religiosity. My partner said: " What is the deal with all the Jesus stuff everywhere?" The most shocking was how pervasive Christianity was in the work place. Our work place was biotechnology and pharmaceutical companies. It was kinda wierd. P.S. "One Nation Under God " was not part of the original poem. It was added during the "communist" scare during the McCarthy trial.
@@kimkaragiannis848 I've worked with Muslims, Buddhists, others. Religion, politics, finances are not appropriate topics of conversation in the work place. Major corporations have guide lines regarding this. The companies in Virginia do too, they were just ignored them and made for VERY inappropriate and uncomfortable situations (They also ignored FDA government regulations regarding drug research and manufacture - but that's another story.) With family/ friends talk about anything. If Christians are being hassled in the work place talk to Human Resources. Giving folks a hard time about Religion, politics, sexual orientation, and finances in the work place is illegal. I am not Christian. Not everyone is. At work no one needs to know personal beliefs.
@@kimkaragiannis848 at work? Or generally? I'm what way? Examples? How come the great majority always seems to feel like the underdogs? Christianity is privileged in the US, no doubt about that. It even says so on your money, so I'm really curious in what way Christianity was suppressed...
I doubt the US founders were religious but the constitution is excellent. Addled beyond belief never knew the God insert was part of Mc Arthyism. McArthie was Catholic and reactionary they go together and Truman was a Klansman when stated that he didn't go to meeting much since he had "Catholic" friends?! His wife hated Jews and he would never have dropped A Bombs on Germany since they had his thinking! Jap's well? As a boy I thought him a nice man. Only the USA would have a Prezzie singing Happy Birthday to the wife of King. Who's class had King killed by the FBI with Jifka and Bobby! Not forgetting John Lennon! The make Al Capone kinda sweet! At least Capone would remember the names of who he killed!
Concerning the "religion" classes in school, we also have those in Sweden. It's not christianity-classes though, we learn about all the major religions and beliefs. School is supposed to supply us with the information to understand the world, and since religion is part of that I think it's meaningful. As a personal aside; growing up atheist and learning about Christianity alongside other religions in school, it only cemented my atheistic worldview.
From my personal experience, this is somewhat different in Germany. In elementary school, I was actually taught bible stories. This might not be common in more progressive parts of the country. However, at least where I live, Religion teachers have to belong to the protestant church (or I guess the catholic church for catholic schools?).
@@FridgeEating Now that you mention it, we did learn some bible stories in earlier grades when we didn't yet have actual "classes". I have a hard time remembering that time now, but it definitely wasn't framed as "fact", more like short stories we could discuss afterwards. I only remember this because I have a drawing that 8 year old me made of Abraham pointing a dagger at Isaac in front of an altar 😆. The bible probably shouldn't be read to kids.
@@FridgeEating I went to school in NRW starting nearly forty years ago and I read Bible stories to learn how to read them and understand the meaning behind them. I also learned the basics of the „world religions“. It helped me learn, that I appreciate the basic understanding all of these religions had and that I don’t want to follow any religion. My „religion“ is now the Grundgesetz.
There are so many TH-cam Channels with culture shocks, but it is the first time I see a video with the religious theme. Very interesting !!! Thank You ! Viele liebe Grüße
It is shocking that people who have spent so many years in public school are shocked that other people act in a different way than themselves. Or maybe it's not so shocking when you know what the goal is with public schools.
What an amazingly honest and fascinating video. Can I comment? Apologies, I'm neither American nor German. I'm English. But I can still give a European v. USA perspective. The internet is awash recently with irritating short videos in which somebody stops somebody else in the street and asks them random general knowledge questions - mostly in the USA. I saw one recently filmed in Manchester, UK in which young people were asked to identify the flags of various countries. They were actually really successful. The comments were FULL of Americans saying Americans would never be able to identify those flags and were all berating the education system in American schools. But the thing is we don't really systematically learn flags in British schools either. We learn them because of international sports like football, rugby, cricket, the Commonwealth Games, the Olympic Games etc and from the news and from travel. This, perhaps, is what is lacking in the USA. Your most popular sports don't involve playing international matches, your news doesn't tell much about other countries and people don't travel much. I don't know if it's true but I read once that American TV coverage of the Olympic Games tends to concentrate very much on just what American competitors do. We can't really do that or there wouldn't be much to watch!
So true. To the media in the US, the rest of the world doesn't exist -- until there's a sizable body count involved. And this would be funny if it weren't so true.
@Barry You are very correct! The US are far more inward oriented than other parts of the world. But there is also a big difference in social layers, the higher the education degree, the more they know about the 'outside' world. While in Europe the less educated know all the best beaches around the world, while educated know about musea and culture sites. So even with less money, people will travel and see other countries and meet other people. Even those in Europe who stay at home, and only watch football, know where the best clubs in the world are and which players are excellent. In the US they are only interested in their own sports, that are hardly played anywhere else. Even the world cup is an internal US affair in most branches of their sports.
Not shying away from a divisive topic. I respect it. Your channel has been putting out quality content for many months now and the number of subscribers does not reflect the level of production value on display here. Keep goin’!
To be honest it’s not a divisive topic in Europe. It’s always weird that people from the country of free speech without limits tend to avoid topics like politics or religion yet we Germans like to discuss all of it without any hesitation
Yes, but there is some objective point in the other videos. Just to claim without any reflection that Republicans supporting the death penalty can be „devout Christians“ is much below the usual good level of this Channel.
@@klamin_original Divisive does not mean that people won't like to talk about it. Quite the opposite. The importance or unimportance of religion or church, faith and God and how you can have one without the other can still be the source of great conversations if done in a respectful way. However, the notion that "we Germans like to discuss politics or religion without any hesitation" is questionable and does not reflect my experience.
@@oneworld1160 It's true, though. They don't seem to see the obvious contradiction. In fact, my impression is that when Americans let their religion influence their politics, they usually mean what's in the old testament, not the newer parts that are actually specifically Christian. There are exceptions, of course. And many seem to know the bible only from what someone told them, or from reading short passages and not really trying to figure out the context.
This is the first of your videos I have listened to, TH-cam suggestion I suppose, great informative video. You are a great researcher/teacher. Thanks for doing this. I just saw your brief bio, teacher and PhD architectural historian, so you are a professor, now it all makes sense. I love TH-cam, I can get a college lecture in my living room.
The church tax in Germany and the tax exemption in the US accomplish the same thing: Providing funding to the church. Germany just does it directly, whereas the US does it while claiming it doesn't. Many in the US also "claim" to be religious or Christian, while their actions and voting patterns certainly indicate otherwise.
What is the voting pattern of the millions of Germans who vote for neo-nazi members of the afD? There are about 100 of them in the German parliament. Given the not glorious past of Germany...
Interesting. In Australia there is no tax exemption for donations to churches, except in limited cases where they qualify as charities or as "war memorials". Tithes, offerings and other donations are all usually after-tax expenditures in Australia, and of course we have a fairly comprehensive social safety net (though less now than when I was younger). So taxes cover some of the things (poor relief) that the Old Testament tithe was meant to handle. BTW, not all Christians consider tithing to be a Christian doctrine. Religion here is considered a private personal affair, not something for public display. Public religiosity is thought "peculiar". Nevertheless some recent Prime Ministers have been practising Christians on both sides of politics -- e.g. Tony Abbott and Kevin Rudd. But some have identified as non-believers. Government-run schools do tend to have one "scripture" lesson a week, I think, where representatives of local churches teach students about their particular denomination. Parents can opt their children out. Overall, religion is seen as a minority, private interest. The overall society and culture is secular. Churches often run charities, and may be respected if they do that well (e.g. the "Sallies" -- Salvation Army).
As a Brit, I don't actually know anyone who has told me they go to Church. Even my parents, who believe, go may be a few times a year. Personally I the US appears no different to some fundamentalist countries in the middle east, just with a different religion. As for the bible, the English bible is often derived from the King James bible and it was translated in order to suit his politics of the time. I find it highly ironic, that the UK, thanks to Henry VIII has an 'official' state religion and the US doesn't, but the US is far far more religious than the UK and mentions god all the time where as a British Politician wouldn't if they wanted to be re-elected.
Agreed, and there's something else which marks out a difference in mindset. At 2:14, Type Ashton casually uses the phrase "..during our daily pledge of allegience". I guess for an American there doesn't seem to be anything odd there, but as a non-American that really jars. It sounds like a cult red flag, or maybe something a totalitarian state would do. Replace the word "flag" with "dear leader" and you'll get what I mean.
@@chriscope2724defenitely sounds cultish. The god bless americas, the so hear me gods, the god bless yous commonly heard in movies are also baffling to me.
Care to actually name those "fundamentalist countries"? And which part of them were you referring to? Their governments/regimes? The majority of their population? The loudest minority? Those you hear about in the media of your country the most? The ones you travelled to?
@ferocious_r my wife who grew up in communist Romania, as well as several other friends of mine from ex-communist countries have shared memories of school-room indoctrination where the class swears loyalty to the dear leader at the beginning of every school day. I understand this is still common practice in North Korea today. The US is the only western country I know of where school days involve swearing loyalty to an authority figure.
@@chriscope2724 Eh, they DO swear to flag and state, not some individual or office. With "God" smuggled in there by christian fundies nearly fifty years later to set them off against "godless" commies. And originally associated with a raised right arm gesture, only dicontinued when the german Nazis stole that stance for their own nationalist indoctrination, in ´42. But even if its not to a specific party or person, its still a creepy cultish thing to make kids do every day for all of their school career. Funnily enough inventend and publicized by an early american socialist, no less. One of the people who that very republic with "liberty and justice for all" later should stomp out, incarcerate and unjustly remove from their jobs and take their freedom for their political thought during McCarthyism.
I absolutely LOVED Religion classes back in school! We had it for 2 years in middle school (realschule), with the first year being mandatory and the second year was voluntary. We learned a lot about Bhuddism, the differences between Sunni and Shia schools of Islam, we even looked at some indigenous religions, build our own little totem, talked about similarities between all religion (especially christianity and islam) and just really cool shit all around :D Also i think it its important to mention that paying church tax is "optional", you do by default but you can opt out of it (for a fee of i think like 30 euros)
There is no way we would see genuine "religion", which sound to me like a college class we offer called Comparative Religion, class in the US. The politics of that would be crazy. I think the politics of having an optional class in Christianity would be too hot to handle. There would be the obvious outrage about using public space and time for the class. But there would be other significant outrage about whether the instructor had a Catholic bent or a Protestant bent. The numerous denominations would fight over this and the public school would drop the whole thing.
@@eddarby469 My kids had something that was called Ethiks. You could opt for Catholic, Evangelic or Ethics. The Muslim faith has only been taught in Mosques at that time and place. Ethics was taught by teachers of the Humanist Society. They taught a bit of the religions, but did not limit it to that. They would also have themes like disabilities, how conflicts are made and dissolved, values etc. I think this could be a class that could be taught in the US as well.
@@dagmarbubolz7999 I was only the last year in Ethik, but i really enjoyed it. We discussed for example the ethical aspects of fighter drones or self driving cars.
Hi Aston. I‘m an American and have lived in Germany for the past 41 years. The last 31 of those were working in Germany, paying taxes here, and becoming vested in the German retirement system. Shortly after I started working here I noticed the church tax on my pay slip. Yipes! I found out you can opt out of paying this tax, and I did that years ago. That has consequences, but none that‘ll impact me (I don’t think.). Where I‘m eventually buried, that some church affiliated care facilities might not be available to me, etc. But, as someone who is completely not religious, I can put my money to many other well deserving charitable causes.
I'm from Scotland and lived most of my adult life in Germany plus 10 years in the USA. Your videos are so well-researched and presented that I find myself learning a lot every time about both countries. Thank you for this sensitively presented video on a potentially controversial subject. Your presentation and production values are extremely professional.
This is highly interesting. Coming from Finland, I have visited both the US and Germany ( actually lived there..) .. I would say in both countries, a lot depends on the region, and local community.. I have known very secular Americans, Christian Americans, the same for Germans on both ends of the spectrum.. I would say in Europe there is more personal choice and involvement, versus following traditional family values in America ..
Very intelligent and balanced comment. It's a comment that is too mature for most of the audience of these kinds of childish comparison videos. I'm French BTW.
@Eric Perez The Europeans have increasingly rejected the idea that God exists and that morals come from Him and thus from a true absolute moral compass. Instead they have been increasingly making up their own. And as to whether I know the meaning of the word, here it is from Oxford Language Dictionary. Read and decide for yourself: ni·hil·ism /ˈnīəˌlizəm,ˈnēəˌlizəm noun the rejection of all religious and moral principles, in the belief that life is meaningless.
I am a republican and a devout Catholic and I completely oppose the church tax There is an element of mistrust of the government, but more importantly, I think that one of the primary virtues of giving to your church is the personal choice to sacrifice into contribute financially to a good cause I think being text in that way, detects from the personal discipline and and overall expression of love for God and your fellow man as Christians were not actually bound to ties, but we should give, and it should be freely down of our own choice.
I lived in the Bible Belt of the USA south and the restrictions are severe. No school prom, only school banquets. No public dancing (in many rural counties) It promotes inappropriate behavior. No selling alcohol on Sundays. Nudity is censored and shunned. In southern Germany where I lived: The churches owned and ran the breweries. Nudity was very common and not considered a sexual display, in many public places. Very natural. These two places who claimed to be based on Christian beliefs couldn't have been more different. The Coptics of Egypt are Christian, but there is no Hell in their teachings. Most of what I've learned is that cultures are different in the same countries and even more diverse in different countries. So, be respectful, and when in Rome, do as the Romans do. God bless you!
@@476f7474I’m confused, don’t Mormons believe in Jesus Christ? Wouldn’t that make them Christian? If they aren’t Christian, what are they? And what is a real Christian?
Given the whole "Christ is wine" thing and the fact that you can just buy your alcohol on Saturday to drink on Sunday, hardline rules about not selling alcohol on Sundays makes me roll my eyes. And yeah. That Christian puritanism regarding nudity is pretty rough. There's nothing quite like growing up and seeing women as objects, sex as a commodity, and your body as something to be ashamed of to the point of mental illness.
@@davespanksalot8413 If you start praying to Buddha, it doesn't make you a Buddhist. If you start praying to Jesus Christ, it doesn't make you Christian. It only makes you very uneducated about the respective faith. Christians pray to God. Jesus is the ultimate example to follow. You can mention the son as part of the holy trinity of the father, the son and the holy spirit but that's also only what catholics do. Lutherans pray only to God. Mormons pray to Jesus Christ and I assume that in the context of the book of Mormon that somehow makes sense. Otherwise, christians don't pray to Jesus but they pray to God through Christ. Jesus was a human that God chose as his vessel. This made him Christ which is God within man. That again makes him a leader of faith, a messia even - but not God in any sense that would warrant praying to Jesus Christ. Christianity is much more about "what would Jesus do" than about praying to Jesus. You are a Christian if Christ is your ultimate guide and God is your ultimate purpose. If you pray to Jesus, you're in a cult that's drawing thematically from Christianity to fly under the radar.
@@476f7474 thanks for the detailed explanation. It’s always worthwhile finding out other people’s beliefs. For myself, I think I view it from a more secular historical perspective, insofar as modern Christianity originated from a breakaway apocalyptic messianic Jewish sect. I find your perspective on what today constitutes a genuine Christian believer informative.
Growing up without religion, the first time i met an actual believing and practicing Christian was at the age of 25. I doubt that would be possible in the US. 😄
Having been to the bible belt (southern regions of US), it is probably not possible to live a single day without seeing or meeting a practicing christian in that region.
Same. When I started university at 20, I made friends with someone who identified strongly as a Christian and I was REALLY confused there were grown adults who actually believe in those “fairytale stories” I was told as a kid.
I am mostly agnostic. The reason why I don't say that I'm an atheist is because as a kid I kept talking to what I learned to call God. I usually don't have that kind of one-sided communication anymore (never got a response, but also never expected one), unless I find myself in traumatic or devastating circumstances which is rare. I don't know if I caught this habit in Kindergarden or early school of if this is something built-in, but since it also does not really interfere with my rational thinking processes, I just kept that as an open question and a connection to people who are dedicated believers. Since this is a more agnistic thread, do you guys have similar reminiscence of religion and how do you understand them? Is this something you reject as indoctrination and how does it relate to your rationalism?
I am actually quite impressed how civil the comments are, given this controversial and for some for sure also emotional topic. Cudos to you for sharing and to all who comment and share in a respectful way.
When my family moved to the States when I was 9, the first thing my 50+ neighbor asked if was if I had been saved. I had no idea what she was talking about. I'm glad that I came back to Germany where religion is your own business.
Go away right wing. Weil ihr Rechten es ja auch so schwer habt. Über Twitter, Telegram oder hier dürft ihr eure Fake News über Corona und die Ukraine verbreiten, und heult dann rum, wenn jemand euren Haßreden widersprechen will und schreit rum eure Freiheit würde eingeschränkt.
The main difference between Germany and the US is that we see religion more from an ethics perspective and that’s also what gets taught at school. We’re also often still members of the two largest churches (Protestant and Catholic) even thought we don’t believe in god simply because they often run Kindergardens and schools or nursery homes (without any religious indoctrination, they just run it) and the church tax is more like a donation to society for many members.
@Phillip Banes It's seen as one. It works as one. And you can always choose to unregister from your church, so you only pay it when you're a member. And since I don't even believe in God but am still a member of the protestant church (I'm from the countryside, in villages you simply get baptized and have your confirmation with 14, it's tradition) I see it as a donation. I get an annual report from the church how church tax is used within the protestant church and I'm ok with that. So I see it as a donation. Besides that I always get some money back through my tax return, there are a lot of things you can deduct from your income tax through your voluntary tax declaration.
@@klamin_original I had the same view for years until I left. I was never really religious but was baptized because its more a societal thing not a religious thing in the countryside. I stayed because I wanted to support the charity work they do. As you said: Donation. But the more I learned about the role of organized religion in the struggle of queer people I dropped out.
@@nashatalniemandskind3430 That's not really the case with the German protestant church (EKD) though. A quote from their website: "The Evangelical Church in Germany (EKD) has reaffirmed its liberal stance on dealing with homosexuality. According to the EKD Instagram account, she rejects any form of discrimination based on sexual orientation or identity for theological and ethical reasons: "This applies regardless of all court decisions." to shape their partnership based on the biblical commandment to love”." Another article from 2022 says, quote: "The Central German state bishop Friedrich Kramer has apologized on behalf of his church to all people who have experienced injustice in the past because of their sexual orientation or gender identity. The Evangelical Church in Central Germany (EKM) announced on Monday in Erfurt that he apologized "for all the suffering that the church has caused and tolerated to this day". So what you said basically just applies to the catholic church these days but even the German catholic church openly and publicly talks about splitting from the Vatican because they think a lot of these old church laws are outdated and are discriminating people.
@@klamin_original What they state on their website is not worth a penny as long as they dont take any actions. There is a reason especially the catholic church is struggling so much with loosing members. From their discriminatory employment rules to cover up for pedophiles and denying queer people basic respect. That this discussion is taking so long and that they consider these topics even worth being discussed is enough for me to not support them.
@@nashatalniemandskind3430 Protestant church, PROTESTANT. They ARE doing everything they say, there is no exclusion of non heterosexual people I don't know in which reality you live in or have lived in but I live in Germany and the protestant church is a completely liberal church that has nothing to do with the Catholic church.
This is a very good description of a complicated topic. It has been amusing to me in Germany that the Germans have so many religious holidays, churches and Christmas events and so little God.
thats so disturbing if you whatch US olitics. Actually as a european it would seem ridicoulous, if it would´nt be so frightening. Just like seeing the speech of a religious leader in Iran or Afghanistan.
As someone from northern Germany, I gotta agree with a lot of other people in that your statements about religion in Germany feel overstated to me in several aspects. It might be the difference between north (or east) and the southern parts of Germany, but I don't know anyone who is openly Christian here nor cares about it. I've never come across church owned land here aside from the churches itself and even when it comes to the churches, anyone I know just regards them the same way they would historical buildings. That is, if they're even historical buildings and not just a tiny modern house with a cross in a cute glass window. Actually, I was shocked when I saw a Catholic priest in a collar the other day on a full train in my state's capital, it was the first time I saw one irl here actually. Public displays of Christianity are just not really a thing where I live and even someone wearing a necklace with a little cross on it is unusual to me and sticks out. The fact that you mentioned religion class in public school along with the US ban for teachers leading prayers in public schools also rubbed me the wrong way as you did then completely skip over what these classes actually entail. The way you mentioned them together did create a narrative of religion class being akin to worship or prayer, especially Christian ones, when it isn't comparable to that at all. At least from my experience/the experience of classmates of mine (as I personally decided to choose philosophy class), was that it was teaching about different kinds of religions, their belief systems and some basic principles like ethics. It is NOT worship or prayer or even solely Christian focused. The way you presented that, or rather the lack thereof, while mentioning it in the same breath of separation of church and state/leading prayer by teachers felt like a misrepresentation to me. It was also not so much an "opt out" thing here as you had to choose either a religion or philosophy course similar to how I had to choose between French or Latin as a second foreign language. You were NOT forced into a religion class that you then had to manually opt out of here, it was simply another freely choose-able class in an educational setting. But hey, maybe in southern Germany that could be wildly different, but in that case I would've loved either more research to give a better general perspective or to just make it about southern Germany in particular as seems to be your main talking point/perspective for this video when talking about Germany.
I'm from north gernany. So far north that Hamburg belongs to the south for me^^ I have the same experiences as you. I know one Person in my age group that is relegios. My Patents and even my grand Patents never gone to Church.
From Stuttgart hieeer y0. With the exemption of foreigners (Who are predominantly Muslim, only a few foreigners I met who were Christian[mostly the ones whose parents came from Greek or Italy]), I too know of nobody who is actually religious beyond superficial reasoning, with the exception of ONE guy who just so happened to believe in the magical healing properties of certain crystals and stones and decorated his entire room with them for weird reasonings(basically just a nut case). @@dulgon8135
I think if you go back and listen again you WILL find that Ashton did indeed say that the religious courses in German schools was about different religions. Also, the use of the phrase "opt out" signifies that there were other choices available. I am not sure why you seem so offended by what was clearly stated as one persons observations. It makes you come across as one of those "snobby Germans" we hear about so often; and that ruins the reputation of those who are truly nice.
@@judiclark1012 "(...)Ashton did indeed say that the religious courses in German schools was about different religions" Yes, and my comment does not contradict that as that wasn't my critique. I wrote several times that it was the comparative nature of the presentation that presents an image by association that is not accurate to the reality depending on where in Germany you live. "I am not sure why you seem so offended by what was clearly stated as one persons observations." So is mine. In fact, I stated that many times during my comment both by mentioning locations and several phases that make it clear that I'm speaking from my own personal observation. Difference is that I'm not trying to present my personal regional anecdotes as Germany in general. "It makes you come across as one of those "snobby Germans" we hear about so often; and that ruins the reputation of those who are truly nice." So you misread my comment by making up a straw man only to insult me and call me snobby? Okay. I never insulted anyone, so idk why you felt the need to, but go off I guess.
@SunnyAmaterasu This American woman ( I am also a Yank ) is relying on polls and charts to support her point of view . The real accurate view is much more nuanced . Ja -- having religion taught in school does not mean teaching the history and beliefs of only ONE religion -- ( which is preaching ) . Unfortunately she is oversimplifing -- ( typical Yank ).
Hi Ashton, interesting video about a potentially controversial topic. "God as described in the bible." See, that's one of the main problems here. I'm an atheist and my girlfriend is a university-studied protestant theologian, which works great because we learn from each other and have tolerance for each other. When she has to deal with American people from the same "business", she has culture shocks too, mainly regarding to how shallow and ideological their education in their seminars often is and how literally many of them take the words of their ENGLISH bible. She has more than once complained about how little they scratch the surface of the history and the genesis of those texts, which have derived from at least half a dozen or so of old languages with differing cultural norms, with different geographical background, even with different fauna and flora, which play a significant role in some of the stories, just to mention the apple which never was one. Even I, who doesn't really care for such things but have a certain interest in history have encountered people who I had to set right about certain details in what they themselves would tell me was the most important book in their life. Regarding the religion classes in school, they are very, very different from what people elsewhere think they are. As some have already pointed out, this has not even remotely to do with bible studies in American church groups. Of course, there are variations in the 16 states who have the authority on education. They range from pure ethics classes to religion classes with the main stress on a certain faith. But even in Catholic Bavaria, the consensus is more that this has to be lessons about not only one religion but also about the main world religions and also that this has to be lessons about ethics in general. The neutrality of the state must be upheld even in these classes, despite of some efforts by politicians like especially in Bavaria. If you want to dive deeper into the understanding of how the churches are different especially in Germany, one interesting aspect is the concept of Rhine capitalism, which is partly based on catholic social teachings which have fundamentally changed in the 19th century during the industrialisation of the Rhine/Ruhr area. There is a long history of that which seemingly never made it across the pond. And even today, compare the attitude of the majority of the Catholic bishops in Germany to the extremely conservative ways of the American bishop conference. Look at the "Synodaler Weg" and how progressive that is in comparison to Roman or American Catholicism, despite the fact that there were and are drawbacks like only recently in their last convention. Regarding your question, what bothers me most about American religiousness are two things. The influence that often ideologically religious stand points have on politics and even on people who don't share this ideology. Keywords abortion, women's rights, or LGBTQ rights. Also, the end-of-days beliefs that make people believe that it doesn't matter whether we preserve our planet because all that matters for them is their rapture. And what disgusts me every time are missionaries, not only Americans but predominantly Americans, who come here to preach their backward-oriented ideology and who always find those weak-minded victims they are looking for. Religion is a private matter in Europe, and it should stay that way. The often hypocritical in-your-face ways of religious expression in America are not very well received in these parts. Just let me recall one of the most egregious examples for that. Remember that image of the former POTUS surrounded by "religious leaders" touching him and "praying". Nobody can tell me that a single one of those people cared even a tiny little bit for their faith or any ethical values. That was probably the most disgusting political photo of the last decade... Take care!
Completely agreed. I also must say I didn't like the video. Because while it was neutral in terms of statistics and all... there was this overwhelming impression that she didn't talk to a lot of Germans about that topic herself before making the video. And still she stated mostly everything as facts. And that especially comes out when she talks about religion as a part of curriculum as if it were this 'pushing beliefs onto the students'-kind of thing instead of clearifing after that it is not about one religion but giving understanding and knowledge about the many different religions that exist and how things can be seen/interpreted and discussions about the morals we in our daily lives can understand and follow even if we are not religious. And she really horribly glossed over about what church taxes is used for. It was like: look how much money they make from the poor people... sure they keep money (about a third) to pay for their workers and stuff but basically no one becomes rich through that and the rest (the majority) is used for education, health ect. But I think that steams from knowing of people like Kenneth Copeland, T.D. Jakes, Joyce Meyer and Co? Pastors who have millions on ther bank account/in private holdings. I could continue endlessly. Probably better if I don't watch anymore from this channel. (I did try one video before but it was similar in that it appeared like American mindset applicated to German statistics without the impression of reflection 'why') Statistics are important of course... but it's equally if not more important that statistics don't represent everything and can only give an estimate about something and to truly understand something you have to do more than a superficial research (meaning there are facts but no effort made to research how these facts came to be). Sorry about ranting... I had to get that out of my system... if a student delivered something like this I'd give it a 4- probably... not because I don't like what was said (which as I said, I don't) but because analysis or argumentation is not done at all nevermind applicated in any way... Btw. If I just look at the US judge system and the supreme court and how devout some of them are and how they conduct themselves. NO ONE CAN TELL ME that their religion doesn't have a HEAVY influence on the laws in the US. They might officially have it serperated but... that's on paper. While in Germany even CDU wouldn't really try to influence the laws in regards to religion.
@@natsukiilluna6324 I agree, the video could have been a bit clearer about the religion classes and about the church tax, as a number of commenters show who clearly misunderstood both concepts. But I wouldn't be so harsh in my judgement. I think it was a good start that asks for a second part with deeper information. Maybe a little interview with somebody who teaches religion and ethics in school, or somebody from university. That should be very interesting. ;-)
Ok you miss a huge important distinction. Religion in class teaches you about all world religions, their origins and stories. It's not some prayer thing which you make it sound like.
I myself had "Reli" for eight years in school. In elementary school it was a voluntarily additional course and later in Gymnasium you had to choose between religion and ethics. I chose religion because I had it the last 4 years anyway and the lessons were always relaxed. So it was the following 4 years. We learned about Judaism, Islam, little bit Buddism, we "celebrated" shabbat with bread and grape juice, visited a mosque and a synagogue in Berlin and watched many many films and documentaries xD We also talked about sects, I even gave a presentation about Scientology, where we discussed the differences between american and german law for religion. Religion classes in Germany, at least in East Germany, are exactly like it sounds... school lessons about religions in Germany and the world and their influences and histories. It's not doctrination. The same goes for german politics classes as well btw
It was part of World History in a High school I taught in in New Mexico (SW US), doubt this would be done in the Bible belt. But it was taught similarly, I'd say with a lot of films and so on. We didnt' have any kinds of hands on experiences or field trips (field trips in the US are now rare--due to legalistic/logistics concerns, ime).
@@sheireland3737 Did anyone tell you they were all lying their heads off for money and political control. No Priest ever died in the great Irish Potato famine! No one went to heaven either!
@@mikefay5698 You obviously have issues with the Church. Your comment is totally off topic. This is a discussion about how religion is currently taught in schools and how religious people are generally. The church is only as relevant to your life as you allow it to be. Personally I have no idea what you are talking about because I don’t listen to or read such things - my energy and brain space is applied elsewhere. I couldn’t care less.
I'm an American who was raised non-religious by non-religious parents, and I have since junior high school self-identified as atheist. As such, just going through the nominally-secular public schools was a constant uphill battle. Every religious toad in school would seemingly take it as a personal affront that I didn't share their personal mythology, and subjected me to ongoing harassment and bullying. Now these same bullies and pontificating jerks are in elected office, because the other sanctimonious jerks voted them in. Despite the first amendment guarantees of separation of church and state, local and state officials are constantly forcing religion on the entire public using taxpayer money. Between the holiday nativity displays, decalogue monuments at courthouses, requiring the display of "in god we trust" in schools, license plates, currency, to name just a few, it frankly feels like a siege. I would like to have seen more about how German society at large engages with religion - Does it affect political candidacies? What about water cooler chit-chat? Are there Giant megachurches there? Is the prosperity gospel in Germany? How are self-identified christian Germans lives affected by their belief? How many christian Germans believe and practice their religion in a way Americans would recognize?
1. We have politicians who are Christians, but also Muslims or Jews. We even have a party that has Christian in it‘s name, but it’s members aren’t all Christians. 2. Faith normally is something private, nothing we discuss with colleagues. 3. Less than 50% of the population are Christians, about half of them Protestants, the other roughly half are Catholics. Add to these some orthodox, old catholic and evangelical (1-3% of the population) Christians. 4. Of those Catholics and Protestants about 8% attend a Sunday service. 5. No megachurches, no prosperity gospel, which derives from the pilgrim fathers. People who consider themselves Christians live like everyone else. Some do voluntary work in their parishes or lay organizations. But Germans overall are quite prone to voluntary work, like firefighters (80% of our firefighters are volunteers), rescue, caring for others, hospice groups etc.
I can attempt to answer a few of those. - yes but the more in the south and the more rural the area the more likely you are to find religious parties in Power (CDU = Christian Democratic union Merkels party; CSU Christan social union) They do have influence on a larger scale. Although they don't really care what type of Christian (catholic, protestant, orthodox, ...) as long as you are one (That's also how most welfare organisations put their faith based criteria btw.). -No giant mega churches, people go to their areas historic church, if you live in a small village then church is going to be very important for the community and even if you're a different religion you'll attend the parties and get togethers, kids events and so on. -No one just casually discusses religious belief they might ask if you mention you attended idk a Confirmation if you're Protestant but after a yes or no that convo is over. You might get more questions if you're Muslim, Jew, Hindu, etc. because it is much more unusual and people ask what holidays you celebrate (if you tell them you're an Atheist they might also ask you that). But you'd only get into the thick of it with very close friends. -No clue about prosperity gospel but we don't have all of those TV preachers and Ive personally never encountered that so I'd tend towards no if it does exist then very few people believe it (we do have Mormons though so anything is possible) - How much it affects your life is kinda different for each person most younger people just do holidays and school services plus religious studies, see the crosses in official buildings and they might get a few advantages when it comes to flats, scholarships etc. bc churches offer a lot of support. Some also volunteer as camp counslers, youth group leaders etc.. Older people often attend church Sundays, pray before meals and also volunteer in some way and are generally a lot more involved in the planning. But it doesn't really influence your decicions daily (if you're a part of the mainstream denominations we also have a ton of cults and sects). Church in general is more a Club you go to to meet people or have fun no one requires you believe the stuff or learn verses by heart. I attended an all girls private catholic school (as a baptized lutheran and Atheist) and our religion class was pretty good at staying somewhat objective and not making it a bible study. - The vast majority of German Christians would probably not be considered Christian by Americans (many don't consider themselves believers and just go for traditions sake or like me are a non believer that helps with kids activities and takes advantage of the welfare perks bc my neighboorhood church is pretty cool), Religion is usually a rather private and personal thing that you dont talk about that deeply. And the bible is not taken literally in any way it's seen more as a story book with some moral lessons along the way. Add on: Sorry this got a bit long and I edited it a few times to add after thoughts
Religious affiliation is irrelevant for political office and how people view you. Sexuality has largely become irrelevant too. Race is only still relevant for a minority. Many politicians are atheists, many are divorced, some openly gay.
I am an American and an atheist. I live juuuust above the colored in section that you represented as the "Bible Belt," in a majority Christian part of the country. I feel like there are at least as many local churches as there are McDonald's franchises. Many of the local hospitals are religiously affiliated, as well. For example, there are Jewish and Catholic hospitals. I don't really understand the ins and outs of how that works, to be honest. I know I was born in a Catholic hospital and that, because they thought I would die, they christened me. I am grateful that I didn't die and I don't really care that they sprinkled some water on my head. There are also religiously affiliated schools, including colleges and universities, in the area. Most hospitals, hospices, and colleges and universities have a chaplain and a chapel. When I was a child, my main exposure to religion came from either hospitals or from being invited as a guest to my friends' homes or places of worship or hearing from friends about their experiences. For example, one friend had a Catholic mother and a Jewish father. Her parents let her decide, at around 12 or 13, which religious community to be a part of. Another friend was Hindu, and I accidentally touched a shrine that she had in her room. I had another friend whose mother was originally Catholic, but who had converted to Islam when she married my friend's dad. My friend wasn't allowed to come to a lot of school dances and parties and she said there was a bit of tension with her grandparents, who felt like their daughter had betrayed them when she left the Catholic church. I had friends who went to a Catholic school even though they lived right next door to me. I had a friend who practiced Wicca, which... meant, to me, that she had some interesting looking crystals and stuff hanging around her house and was very into nature conservation. I also had friends who were Evangelical Christians of various denominations. These were the friends who would invite me to church or Bible camp or youth group or volunteer events like Habitat for Humanity or cleaning up strips of highway. Some churches were big and loud, and seemingly well funded, with lots of music and singing. Some were small and quiet. The youth events didn't seem that different from secular youth-oriented events except for when they'd stop and pray. Looking back, though, I can definitely see that those events were recruitment tools. My non-Evangelical friends never invited me to join in. I also definitely sat in on some sermons that were very political - with clergy telling the congregation how they should vote. I did not like that one bit. Later, as an adult, I attended some weddings in religious houses. I think I've attended more weddings that took place outdoors, though, in parks and lakes and gazebos and the like. In my experience, funerals are usually held in funeral homes, although I've been to a few in houses of worship. Surprisingly, school was my other introduction to religion. In school, we learned about world religions in sort of a general way - the features of many of the major world religions and how they had shaped history and policy. I also took a classic literature class in high school in which parts of the Bible were read and studied as ancient literature, in the same vein as, say, the Epic of Gilgamesh or the Bhagavad Gita or The Odyssey. Later, in college, I took electives that provided a baseline understanding of both the major "Eastern" traditions and the major "Western" traditions. Other classes sometimes touched on the ways religion has shaped society. For example, in a class about film and censorship, we learned about the Catholic League and their influence on the Hays Code. So, I guess, my experience of religion has always been as sort of as an outsider looking in. I definitely feel like the church's power in the U.S. is less easy to trace than in Germany, thanks to the division of church and state, but it is sometimes really terrifying. As a woman, I hate that religious folks' religious view have such an outsized influence on what my experience of sex education in schools might be or in whether or not my employer's health insurance or my pharmacist can interject their religion into my reproductive healthcare. As a bisexual person who lived in California during the Prop 8 era, it was really frightening how much money religious organization funneled into that effort. I remember encountering counter-protestors who yelled slurs and held up signs saying "God doesn't love you as you are." It's very scary to be the object of hate from people who want to strip you of your rights (and succeeded, in that case, temporarily) just because they think a sky deity told them so. Honestly? It sounds... insane. I really don't understand why I'm supposed to not only respect folks' right to engage in a mass delusion, but also NOT feel threatened when they let their religion determine MY rights. Do you know that George Bush (senior, not W) thought that atheists shouldn't be citizens? I read that quote when I went to visit his presidential library. Do you know how frightening it is to find out that a president doesn't think you deserve citizenship - based solely on religion? Religious people and religious institutions in the U.S. have a lot of power and they shape a lot of our laws and policies in ways that, frankly, I find terrifying and personally threatening. I think I'd prefer Germany's system, in which the influence at least seems more transparent. Often, in the U.S., I feel like the "separation of church and state" is, in practice, far too narrow. Somehow, it feels like the church still gets to influence the state quite a bit. I mean, there are prayers at presidential inaugurations and congress has a chaplain! I feel like the separation really just benefits the religious institutions by letting them avoid taxes and government interference. Religion is baked into our schools, our hospitals, our charity institutions, our policies, and our laws. The separation just seems like a convenient smokescreen.
@@truthprevails5173 why should that be difficult? It's only a matter of the will to do so, and aquiring the relevant competence to get it right. There's nothing wrong with humans, even if a subsection of the population strongly believes humans are inherently flawed, and constantly tries to prove that.
It was the Church which molded the western society to a very great extent. The Ten Commandments acted as the corner stone. The great institutions of learning came up mainly due to the Church, not exclusively by Govt. Same is the case of hospitals and other health institutions. The overall participation of Church benefitted the whole society, not Christians alone. Compare it with the contributions of atheists and their works! Hardly any positive points! Mostly it was destructive through out the world. Look at the atheist communism and the mass killings carried out in Cambodia, China, USSR, eastern Europe! Absolutely sickening! Atheist China killed millions of people through out the world, thanks to their deceptive dealings of Chinese Flu (COVID -19). Even UN helped them to cover up their crimes. Now look at the atheist model nation of N. Korea! People don't have sufficient food to eat, but the rulers are busy in developing missiles and bombs! So much on goodness and positive influence of atheism! Now look at Europe and see how atheist ideologies are ruining once prosperous western society! One thing I am sure: absolutely nothing positive can come from atheism and it's bi products! Slowly the western society and rest of the world will realise. Thanks to atheist influence, UK, Germany, Belgium, France, Sweden etc are on a collective journey to become model nations in the order of Afghanistan, Somalia and Pakistan!
I had many of the same experiences with religion and am also an atheist. I appreciate the statements on how delusional people can determine others rights, based on their beliefs. It's very disturbing and frightening and I worry for our country (the US).
For me, the culprit is organized religion. If you want to sit in your home and talk to a wall, that's your thing and I have no issue with it. Once you try to make me do the same thing, that's what I have problems with.
@@davidjanbaz7728 True, but depending on where you are, you could be ostrasized from local society due to being an atheist or any other religion than christian
I was on a business trip in the US and was invited to a church in SC, the difference to a German church was huge. In the US, church was more of a public event, like a concert or show. When we walked in it looked like a theater or cinema with screens to read what was going on in the 'show of the day'. They had a pinano and guitars. In Germany it is more of a sacred act in an often very old building with an organ. The age of the visitors was maybe two to three times that in the USA. I could imagine you in a church in the US, but in Germany you are in the right age when your hairs become grey.
That's not the normal experience. Very different from my Catholic parish. That's more of a mega-church experience. They are Christians, but different style/beliefs compared to midwest Catholic.
Many Christian evangelical churches in the US lure in people with Christian Rock bands, revivalism, and theatrical entertainment. I don't think younger Americans would sit for an hour without being entertained. I truly think it's the only way they can keep people coming back.
More of a baptist or evangelical experience. Or some mega church. Most churches aren't like that. They're lucky to have a half decent pianist, much less an organ.
For me, being from one of the most (if not the most) atheist regions in Germany, Berlin, I already heavily struggle with the presence of church influence and religiosity in Southern and Western Germany - no to speak of the US. PS: What I really, really love about your videos that you always do your research and look at real data, unlike most other "compare my new country x to my home country y" channels. This is truly a unique and well appreciated quality of yours.
The most atheist region in the world is often said to be eastern Germany, but I think the city of Berlin is more religious than the surrounding countryside, due to the fact that former West Berlin has a higher percentage of religious people.
@@xaverlustig3581 I will have to look up numbers, but having been born and grown in the rather conservative South-West of Berlin in the 70/80, I can say: Religion was always virtually non-existent in my social environment.
Berlin was the Capitol of Prussia I recall, and Prussians were Protestant. But you know maybe there is a God or perhaps an afterlife, ever hear of simulation theory? Basically the idea is the whole world we experience is just a computer simulation. Who created German history anyway, was it really your ancestors? What about the Russians, what do they exist for? Russians and Germans are what we call heavies, they drive the plot on the world stage cause wars and create challenges fornthe heroes to fight, or at least that was Germany in the first half of the 20th century, the Russians are fulfilling a similar role today, a lot of Russians disagree with this, yet they march, follow orders and they shoot, just like the Germans did during the World Wars. I wonder why I don't have a more prominent role in this story, it seems I am here just as an observer, I don't affect historical events very much, I just watch them on television. So what is it, do you think, I am supposed to do? It must be very boring for someone watching me, am I supposed to entertain them or something? Maybe I should run for President, but I don't think I'd win, mostly due to lack of name recognition I suppose.
When I first visited the United States in 1970, I stayed with a middle class family for two weeks. I was shocked when at the dinner table I saw them holding hands and saying grace. I had never seen this in France, where I lived at the time. One Sunday, they asked me to go to church with them. I accepted out of curiosity to see how churches were in the US. One of the congregants who realized that I was new, asked me to which church I belonged. Being non- religious, I answered that I don't belong to any church. He admonished me that I should go to church. After this, I told my host family that I will not go to church with them. Since then, I have noted the extreme religiosity of many Americans, which permeates to every facet of life. As you mentioned, praying at start of games,, inserting God in the pledge of allegiance, on the currency and now even on car license plates is unique to this country. In Western Europe, these things are completely unheard of. Another obsession in the US is displaying the flag everywhere and at every occasion as well as singing the national anthem at football games. These are a type of civic religion. You never see these in Europe.
@mahmoudloghman-adham9040 I`m sure you saw the hypocrisy also . The " christians " in the US are the most bigoted people and the flag wavers don`t care about my freedom -- only theirs . And evey politician has a flag pin on the lapel . It is all just theatre and means nothing.
and Denmark and maybe Norway. Most people here in Denmark see a flag as a national symbol and nice to have when we celebrate even the smallest events. The flag becomes an objekt like candles. When used political it is often problematic.
When I was going to state-owned high school in Germany in the 1980ies, we held the Lord's prayer every morning. Even me as an atheist was told to rise, and stay silent. We had religion as a subject, taught separated by one's confession. Which I didn't attend, I stayed in the library. Every classroom was equipped with crucifix, and still is. In Italy, the situation is quite similar. When given the choice, I'd much prefer the American way of allegiance to the flag and keeping religious education a private thing done in your personal time on weekends, separate from public school. The French way appeals to me even more. (Strangely though, some French condemn the U.S. yet seem to be oblivious of practices of their neighbouring countries Germany and Italy. Or about Nordic countries outperforming the U.S. in flags.) My experience as a exchange student staying with an American family in the Midwest didn't shock me. A short moment of thankfulness at home before starting to eat is more appropriate than allegiance to religion in a public school. We drove to their Baptist Church every Sunday, yet I was never bothered by anyone. The Americans I met were some of the most decent and polite people that I ever met. Many were open and interested to learn about Germany. I felt no condescendance towards me or Europeans. I observe condescendance from many Europeans towards Americans though. It's not our best trait.
Having grown up in Germany and now having lived in the U.S. for decades, I can see the differences on how religion is practiced and taught. I must say as a pragmatic German, I felt uncomfortable and in some cases shocked, at the different approach to Christianity, in particular Evangelicals. In the U.S. it definitely feels more like indoctrination, and taking the bible verbatim (although it was often subject to personal interpretation and agendas), as the end all of how you should live your life, especially in the bible belt and/or rural areas. What becomes more and more disconcerting now, is that these beliefs and interpretations creep into politics, and wield a surprising amount of power over deciding state or federal policies, when we are supposed to have separation of church and state. I have been to areas, where the first question asked was not "How are you?" but "What church do you go to or do you attend church?" It was off putting and felt invasive and judgemental. If they had religion class in the schools where I live now, it would most likely not teach about different world religions or ethics. After having lived here a while, I decided not to attend church anymore (although it was mostly sporadic anyway) because I saw so much hypocrisy and judgement inside the church community. I now consider myself an agnostic, and I still manage to live a decent life. I feel comfortable in my skin and do not worry about any kind of doctrine that espouses to be THE ONLY way to live your life. Also, in Germany you can forego church taxes by leaving the church in an official declaration.
Same here as to having grown up in Germany (Hamburg) and now living in the US. I completely agree. I was quite shocked when one of my professors asked me if I 'had found my church home yet'. And that was a highly educated man who had been on sabbaticals abroad. Yet it apparently had never crossed his mind that someone might not be looking for a church to belong to. Many respondents here comment on kindergardens run by the church in Germany. True, but those places are open to all kids, Christian, Muslim, atheist or whatever, and there will be no religious indoctrination. Totally different in the US; here parents send their kids to church run preschools because they want that indoctrination, even though they obviously won't call it that. So if you're atheist or non-religious, you have to be very careful. The separation of church and state nominally exists in both countries, but it works very differently. In Germany you pay church tax (if you are a church member) to the state who then distributes it to the respective churches. That gives the state some oversight into church finances and is part of the reason why, for example, the scientologists cannot be accepted as a church there as they are not willing to open their finances to any external oversight. Here that kind of meddling of the state in church affairs would never fly. Unfortunately, that does not hold true the other way around. The state here uses taxpayer money, of all taxpayers, not just church members, to pay the churches to provide social services. The result is that, let's say, a person hoping to spend the night in a homeless shelter, will have to sit through a church service first. Or that families get vouchers funded by taxpayer money to send their kids to religious schools where they may not learn much about science etc,, all while public schools get starved for resources, even though they have to take all kids, while the private ones can cherry-pick the kids they want to educate (e.g. not many special ed classrooms in private schools). Yes, and the growing influence of especially very right wing evangelical beliefs in politics is truly frightening.
Phillip, you just proved a point I made, perfectly. There are many ways to lead your life successfully, decently and productive w/o any religion or a different religion, and it has nothing to do with what you term as being anti-American. So, while you were at it, you threw in "my" type of immigration and canceling citizenships, deportation and illegals? To be frank, I can't follow those mental gymnastics. My final word for you is, please reflect on what you just wrote here, because it doesn't make sense.
One thing I have internalised is to never talk to Americans about either politics or religion at all if I don‘t know them really well. Both topics tend to be a case of black or white with no shades of grey for many of them. I like the more critical approach to both topics, even though I am an actual churchgoer and active member of our protestant congregation. I guess that the higher level of devotion and adherence to the bible‘s written word as the exact truth in part stems from the Puritan immigrants who left Europe because there people were getting too „lax“ in their religious practices for their liking or they were actually persecuted for it. That‘s probably also why we hear a lot less from the US about Catholic matters than Evangelical/Protestant, I suppose the majority of Christians are part of one of the Evangelical (as in non-Catholic) faiths. I guess they stuck to it more steadfastly since it was their common ground and reason for leaving their homes in the first place. So I can understand where they‘re coming from very easily, even while wondering how an enlightened people in this day and age would still stick to the bible verbatim without questioning it or at least acknowledging other approaches.
Well put! Yes, you are probably right. Different kinds of Protestants emigrated precisely because they wished to create communities of true believers, like my own Mormon relatives, who emigrated in 1862 and 1893. From the foundation of the Moravian Church (Die Herrnhuter Brüdergemeinde) in the mid-1400s, to the Pentecostal movement, Protestants have had a very black and white view on Right and Wrong. Catholics didn't escape to the Americas due to religious persecution.
I was raised with the concept never engage in politics or religion with people. Just walk away. In my household, either of those are forbidden subjects. I wish peace and tranquility in my house not heated debate with so called know it alls. (I have to put myself in that same category, "so called know it all"). In the US we are so divided on things that things can get violent, ugly, lose family members or friends over the ridiculous.
All these comments paint an illuminated picture of past and present Christian faith in Europe. From the beginning (1st century) faith in Christ has been an experience for each person between Christ Himself and those that seek forgiveness for sins and final reconciliation with the Father. The effect "should" be a life changed for the better, "all the "fruit of the Spirit", " love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control." People like that should make the lives around them better. No one suddenly becomes perfect and liked by everyone. People are people and can still be jerks. But their faith allows God to work these things out of a persons life, hence, the body of Christ, daily personal prayer, Bible study and trusting in God's providence when faced with an awesome challenge. Some people struggle against the terrible life they had lived before faith in Christ. Some slip back into their "old ways" while still professing Christ. If they don't overcome this crisis of faith they appear to others as hypocrites or worse. We always have free will where God is concerned. However if their "transformation" to faith in Christ was real God gives each believer a powerful edge to "help" them overcome the "world", the flesh and the Devil. This is where devotion to Christ comes in and trusting in the Word of God. You expressed a concern at the end of your comment: "...how an enlightened people in this day and age would still stick to the bible verbatim without questioning it or at least acknowledging other approaches." Do you have an example of sticking to the Bible verbatim without questioning?
@@donaldboomer6313 Well, since you ask - there is the topic of same-sex relationships for example. People suffer persecution, even torture or death, because of who they love. More often than not because their version of the Christian faith doesn‘t condone same-sex relationships. „It says so in the Bible“, doesn‘t it? However, looking at when and in what context the different texts were written, there is a logic to that „rule“ that may have been helpful then but isn‘t anymore. So even if „the Bible says so“, it just does not apply to present day people. Another example: How do you explain that there are schools in the US teaching kids only Genesis aka creation and no science? There is a lot more to the creation story than „this is how it must have happened because the Bible says so“, but it certainly is not how this planet/earth/world actually came into being. There is a lot in the Bible that simply isn‘t „true“ as far as the real world is concerned. If a person is convinced that they can only be a true Christian if they believe it all to be true as it is written, they have not understood even one iota of what that concept of „faith“ is all about. And that is putting aside the fact that at least in our German or English Bibles nothing is „as it is written“ anyway, because the whole book wasn‘t written in our native languages. In a nutshell, Jesus said: Be humble, be kind, be helpful. Telling other people how to live their lives based on one’s own beliefs rarely is helpful, nor kind, nor humble.
@@maikek.76 doubt never helped anyone. Doubt is usually destructive and makes things worse. Jesus never said it’s ok to doubt or question God! Having faith and believing has always been the problem with people. As far as gays go they have been the least persecuted people. Purveyors of Homosexuality have always had a free hand in most societies. It’s Christians who are widely persecuted around the world and throughout history. Western civilization was built on Christianity with their rational viewpoint of a creator who revealed Himself to mankind to reconcile them back to God.
I am a European atheist. I have travelled a lot in the USA and like the country and the people. I want to relate an experience that I had in Florida that felt foreign to me and something that would never happen where I live. I was in Florida with my disabled son who uses a wheelchair. At Kennedy Space Center, I was chatting with the guide about all kinds of things. Just the usual friendly chatter. He inquired about my son and his future prospects. I do not mind talking about it and I told him the disability was permanent. No problem. His response was that he would pray for him. That surprised me. No one has ever said something like that to me or my son. No one would ever do so here. For a second I got slightly angry. How dare he impose his religion on me? Religion is a private thing. I cooled down quickly and I don't think he even noticed it. Obviously I shouldn't impose my culture on him and I am sure that it was simply a statement of compassion. But to me it was weird.
@@Claudia-hr5ei It's not just cultural. If there is some big tragedy, such as a school shooting or a devastating hurricane, many people seem to think that "sending thoughts and prayers" is a substitute for doing anything that would actually either help current victims or prevent future ones.
Thank you for sharing such a private story. Many Americans don't think about this being perceived negatively or imposing their religion on someone else. Many Americans think that this is just the right (and nice) thing to say. But, it's certainly a huge cultural difference.
It's the same mentality that gave us Americans the contemptible, cliched "thoughts & prayers" response after every school shooting. 🤬🤬🤬🤬 "thoughts & prayers"!
I (American) would oppose any compulsory church tax. Religion should be supported by its adherents or by other donations freely contributed by individuals, whether believers or not.
It's the US that's the outlier in the world when it comes to religion. It's a culture shock simply coming from Canada. Also, I have a hard time believing that those in the US are truly religious. It's more similar to a fan base of a band than anything internally meaningful.
School courses in Religion in Germany are often more about learning about religion in a scientific way. Not necessarily To make you actually believe in it but To educate you about it and that is important as it will broaden your knowledge. It‘s fundamentally different in its INTENTION. Unfortunately you didn‘t dive into that. It‘s basically a Common understanding here that you should know about ways and means of Religion but at the same time Most people agree on Not taking it seriously at all in a literal way.
I dropped out of church at the age of 23 thats ~45 years ago. And since then, i haven't paid any church taxes. I left the religous classes when i was 14 years old. That was 1968 and a little scandal :-) in the village i grew up. It was and is possible because at the age of 14 there is free choice of religion. If you think of the churches as owning lots of properties - never forget the historical background. The churches own that land, that buildings etc. since ages. And like a lot of people here already mentioned, the Kitas, the hospitals etc. are run by the churches and are not a place to infiltrate with some religous ideas. My wife is sometimes voluntarily working at the 'La Strada'(named after the great Fellini movie) a place were prostitutes, male and woman, can drop in, warm up, get food and condoms. They even get medical help and legal advice! It is run by the 'Caritas' a catholic organisation! And i really think that 90% of the priest, even the catholic ones, don't doubt science. Even the theory of the 'Big Bang' was developed by Lemaître, a catholic priest and later a 'Domestic Prelate' (a very high rank) - search at Wikipedia. He refused to call this as a proof of gods Genesis. I see it that way: - in USA is religion and state diveded by constitution, but has a much higher impact in daily life, education and science. - in Europe there is the seperation not that strict, but there is almost no minfluence in the daily life and education. And no way, that the churches have influence on science
"Charitas is a catholic organisation".... well, 2%. Wikipedia isn't always the best source, but in this case it is pretty reliable "Der Anteil von Kirchengeldern in der Finanzierung aller Tätigkeiten von Caritas und Diakonie beträgt insgesamt etwa zwei Prozent". They do like to tell people, how generous the churches are, and that it is wholly funded by nice christians, but this is a lie. if you aren't christian and want to work there you will have a REALLY hard time getting employed, it is unconstitutional GG Art. 3 "Niemand darf wegen seines Geschlechtes, seiner Abstammung, seiner Rasse, seiner Sprache, seiner Heimat und Herkunft, seines Glaubens, seiner religiösen oder politischen Anschauungen benachteiligt oder bevorzugt werden. Niemand darf wegen seiner Behinderung benachteiligt werden." but nobody seems to care.
@@GGysar I agree with you. Also in my opinion the status of the churches is a violation of our Grundgesetz. The problem is the so called Konkordat, a contract from 1933! with the Deutsche Reich and the catholic church which regulates a couple of things. Mostly in favour of the church. The Nazis wanted to silence the church for some time. Because the German Bundesverfassungsgericht decided that this contract is still in in order. Ok, that was as far as i remember somewhen in the 50ties. And i still think that this is not correct, because there are articles in it which counter the the Grundgesetz: The mentioned Article 3 says also: (1) Alle Menschen sind vor dem Gesetz gleich. (2) Männer und Frauen sind gleichberechtigt. Der Staat fördert die tatsächliche Durchsetzung der Gleichberechtigung von Frauen und Männern und wirkt auf die Beseitigung bestehender Nachteile hin. (3) Niemand darf wegen seines Geschlechtes, seiner Abstammung, seiner Rasse, seiner Sprache, seiner Heimat und Herkunft, seines Glaubens, seiner religiösen oder politischen Anschauungen benachteiligt oder bevorzugt werden. Niemand darf wegen seiner Behinderung benachteiligt werden.
With 14 i wasn't ready to leave the church. Still got the idea in mind "if everyone follows there might be something to it". 🥴 However, it wasn't that big a deal anymore when i finally left the church. Just a small fee for the municipal paperwork. The priest didn't even try to contact me and convince me otherwise.
Ashton, you are brilliant! I've been an ex-pat (UK) living in Germany for 30 years. My daughter was born and grew up in Germany (and then moved to San Diego). So I understand the German system entirely, so I thought, but I still learn so much from you.
I lost my faith really early at about 10. I had a nice priest as religion teacher who didn't mind that at all. Every time there is a scandal here in Germany the church loses more members. Which is a good thing. I'm not sure if the church employees like in a hospital are now allowed to get a divorce or not. I've seen videos about American religious extremists advocating to dissolve the separation of state and church. That scared me a lot.
Thanks, Ashton, for another well researched and informative video! I grew up in Germany as a faithful catholic and even served as altar boy and went to a catholic high-school (Gymnasium), were we started school with a prayer each morning. Yet, I found the German school curriculum very open minded to develop free thinkers and problem solvers and science played a big part in my academic path, so I learned a lot about the atrocities of the church from the inquisition to the crusades to turning a blind eye to the holocaust during the Third Reich. After I emigrated to Canada in my late 20s I learned about the horrifying methods of “christianizing” as a tool for colonizing the indigenous population and many crimes of child abuse, I became a non-believer and feel quite liberated. I still value the teachings of the New Testament, instilled good values in my children who we took to the liberal-minded Untied (protestant) church as a family to keep an open-mind approach (it did not last, none of my kids go to church any longer), I still donate to charitable organizations, church-related or not, but I remain very sceptical about organized religion, especially the fundamentalist and extremist followers, as there are many in the US, alarmingly!
Mr German, you are alarmed by Christian fundamentalists in a foreign country the USA at the other end of the world who have killed anybody in your country Germany, but you are not alarmed by muslims in your country even if this religion has caused several deaths in your country. And I'm not even talking of the jihadists in your country. Is that not some kind of hypocrisy? BTW, do you know that there are Christian fundamentalists in Germany. I grew up in Strasbourg I know what I'm talking about. Stunning how Germans want to desperately prove they are better than others especially than Americans. Hidden inferiority complex?
@@Prime72 Naivety is one of the greatest dangers facing the West. The most extreme "Christian fundamentalists" are way holier than the most moderate muslims. Why ? Because the so-called Christian fundamentalists never give births to Christian fundamentalists. Even moderate do give birth to children that become jihadists. And fanatical moslems almost always give birth to children that are or stay or become fanatical moslems.
I am a Dane living in Germany for the last 15 years, since I was 52. In Denmark I was baptized (evangelic as all the rest then) but only once or twice attended a service in a church until I was 13 and was about to confirm my religious belief. That was difficult for me. Although both of my parents were members of the church, they never attended any service that I know of, and we never prayed at home. In fact my father was an atheist and my mother just non-religious, but both of them supported the church with church-tax (0,5-1% of the gross income) because they liked the +2000 mostly old churches (half of them dating back 8-900 years). In kindergarten we often had to pray because the leader was very religious, and the same thing happened in school. From 3rd to 7th grade, I struggled to learn by heart religious verses from the many Danish psalms (one verse per week). My brother could look at a verse for two minutes in the morning and repeat it “by heart” in the lesson that day - I used sometimes hours, because they never made any sense to me. When I was 11 or so I was very ill (burst appendix) and had to stay in hospital for 5 weeks because I almost died. In the week before the correct diagnose was made I lost my faith in a god and I told my parents that if I had to live like this I would rather die. Religious belief of any sort has never returned, but I performed my confirmation (which included 5 times we should attend a service), because I would not miss the presents that usually followed. Now I find it funny that I can quote most Danish psalms by heart, but I can quote thousands of pop songs as well. In 10th to 12th grade, we were also taught religion and here by a real Danish priest, but the scope of this education was to understand Christianity and Christian belief and culture - and to some extent other religions as well. He was very good doing that I think. During that time I had a girlfriend and of course we had sex. Sex before marriage is no issue in Denmark - we just do it if we can. When I met my now wife, she was 21 and had left the church at the age of 18. For some nostalgic reason I did not leave the church until I was 45 or so. Until then I gladly paid 0,6 % tax for the church. We planned to move to another area where the tax would be 1,3 % which was very much for Danish conditions. We did not seal our relationship with a civil marriage until I was 50 (she 48) and we left to live in Luxembourg. It was a practical thing that makes a lot of legal stuff easier. Our daughter was never baptized, and neither is her children, but they had a civil marriage when their first child was 2 or 3 years - for practical and tax reasons. We find the American approach to religion very strange and when it comes to abortion, we are very much for it - until the 12th week like in Denmark or maybe to the 16th week of pregnancy, but of course you should do all to protect yourself from getting pregnant (or getting a woman pregnant) if you don’t want to. Avoiding sex is not an option. In the south of Germany people greet you with “Grüß Gott”. Every time I hear it, I almost jump because I really don’t want to say it, being an atheist, but I usually greet back: “Grüß Gott”. In Denmark we have no such common Christian greeting. On the other hand I certain don’t like “Servus” any better (I am your slave/servant) but even that greeting can be heard from me answering back.
My wife and I married in Japan; there the only thing that counts legally is the registration at the city office; weddings of any kind have no legal significance, although people are free to have them if they wish.
You are overthinking the "Grüß Gott" and "Servus" lmfao. I am originally from Stuttgart (now Japan), and you are getting too confused about language here. Servus might mean slave in Latin but very few speak Latin and barely anyone would know that that's what it means in Latin beyond a party gag (not like they would be pronouncing it correctly either way, only similarity is the spelling). If I am very frank with you, having grown up around Stuttgart I had not once in my life have I noticed that "Grüß Gott" is supposed to be spelled with two words or that it even contains the word god, since literally just a very friendly welcome. Maybe it's a generational thing though, idk but I would be surprised if anyone actually knows that haha
You have forgot to mention that you can opt out of the church tax. In northern germany only a small percentage pay those taxes. And the religious classes in school handles all religions, not only christianity. 19:41
I can't recall any priest in Germany having a private jet nor would a priest here clame that Jesus has spoken to him personally and gave him oders which strongly deviate from the old bible. This isn't describing a Christian priest, but a cult leader. Religion here isn't radical and fuel for hatred like we see in the USA. Makes me wonder if Americans really read the original bible and the ten commandments in it. I had a friend in AR who was raped violently at an age of 16 and even some of the visible scars she will carry into her grave. Her dad was very involved in the local church. Years later and not having married yet, her dad told her that if he should ever find out that she is a lesbian, he would put a bullet in her forehead. What a Christian this man must have been.
you really need to do some more research on the Catholic Church if you think this is an American issue. I mean just in 2019 the pope talked about a relgious order in France that was being closed for sexual slavery of nuns. The child sex scandal involved 5% of total catholic priests according to some reports and had priests in pretty much every country with a decent catholic presence. As for hatred, look at any heavily religious population for any faith and you will find some who use it to fuel hatred. Humans will use almost anything people feel passion for to drive hatred. There is a huge overlap between what cult leaders prey on and what churches provide, its why many people fall into cults when looking for a spiritual connection.
Hello! Swedish fan here who loves your thorough research! In regard to german religious classes, are these strictly classes in christianity then? In Sweden we also have religious classes, but they serve more as a cursory overview of the major religions in the world and their effect on culture and society. A way to help young people orient themselves and understand how people may hold or prioritize different values than themselves. The phrase 'religious classes' feels fairly loaded, so I figure a somewhat more thorough explanation might help diffuse that a bit! Cheers! Erik
as far as i remember religious classes were divided in the two parts catholic and protestants, and classes would be better named hours, cause it was at my school time one school hour (45 min) a week. later came the third one which was so called ethic hour. i guess today there will be in the cities with higher Islamic percentage also some Islamic hour too, but as far as i remember there is still some controversy about it. Mostly which Islamic group is sending teachers, are the teachers from the government/Bundesland are real Islam or something else. But for me first religous hour and later ethic feeled a bit like a alternative history lesson...
It's really more of an ethics class. Even in my primary school days in the early 2000s it was kind of like that. Later on in your high school equivalent it straight up just becomes an ethics class. Experiences may vary of course
Hi Erik, the way it works is that if parents (and their children) are religiously inclined, they can opt to have their children take Catholic or Protestant (I believe in some areas, they can now also get Muslim) classes (depending on how many children they have that want/need such classes), which will mostly focus on overwies of world religions, church stories and basic catechism for their religious practice, but even those will mostly focus on the ethics behind it (consequences of being good vs. bad, society-oriented activism, fundamental ethics, e.g. is the death penalty moral etc.). Parents who opt their children out, agree to send their children to an alternative ethics class, which solely focuses on ethical principles without the respective religious indoctrination and baggage.
Hi Eric, Boris Martin has answered your question already. If you can't find his text: religious classes in Germany are pretty similar to those in Sweden.
During my time in school in Lower Saxony in the 1980/90s we had two (later three) religious classes: one for catholics and one for protestants and "Werte und Normen" for whose who did not want to the first two (but this was only available in higher classes). As far as I remember the two muslims students in my class had to take "Werte und Normen" but the sole member of a free church did not take any of these classes.
Great video. However I think you missed the question why? I think the difference in church attendance is because in Germany we have a much higher rate of church criticism than in the US. This comes mainly from our general political discussion culture. Being in the middle of several pilitical systems and ideologies we developed a much more critical attitude towards authorities like churches. In Germany it is quite common to actually talk about church, believe and politics at the dinner table. There is currently even a major effort underway in the German Catholic Church to reform major rules like women priesthood. This is called the "Synodaler Weg" and could actually lead to a seperation of the German Carholic church from Rome. Germans in general want a more 21th cenntury church that fits to our current ways of living and that's why only few actually attend mass which is not very modern or close to the people even if they still associate with being christian and pay the church tax. However the scandals around pedophilia have shifted this a lot towards leaving church altogether.
Do you actually think that these pedophilia issues are a major factor in the decline of participation in the church? I am aware that there also have been such scandals in Germany, but I had the impression that these were rare cases, not a systemic issue. I might well be wrong, but it didn't register as such in my mind.
The scandals actually were one of the driving factors. The church is doing a lot to prevent those crimes in the future but there are still individuals like the bishop from Cologne who is mentioned in the press every few weeks and because nobody seems to be able to just remove him every little scandal drives people away. On the other hand the "Synodaler weg" actually created valuable options to reform the Church - however every time it gets slapped down by the institutionalized church or Rome simply ignores it we will see anothe wave of people leaving the church. That does not mean that Germans are not religious but they are very critical of the formal churches. I actually expect either a seperation of some sort and radical reform or leaving members to a point where they need to sell some of the churches (buildings).
They're not less or more religious; they just practice and think of Christianity as an idea differently, causing discrepancies in polls like this. I live in South Carolina and most people I talk to IRL claim they're nonreligious.
Excellent video as always. I would like to mention (and it probably already has been) that church tax in Germany is not mandatory. You can 'resign' your membership of the church or, as in my case, never was a member. This is noted on your payslip and you don't pay the tax. 1.) The American experience: I am always astounded by the blind faith exhibited by many US citizens particularly away from the big cities. Not in a negative way at all, in fact I admire this even though I don't really understand it. I rather like the idea of a regulated Sunday; Church then Denny's then mowing the back yard. 🙂 2.) The German experience: A lot of the points you raised are (obviously) based on history. Many of the states in the HRE were ruled by Bishops or Arch Bishops. The church had a leading role in the governance of the empire and even though Napoleon tried to put an end to it, the lands and towns still owed taxes (tithes) and allegiance to that diocese. This never really disappeared but was just organized differently. As you live in Freiburg, it might by interesting for you to see how often the coat of arms of Archdiocese of Freiburg appear around your area. Coats of arms have very important meanings going back to the middle ages when few could read or write but a "picture" was always recognizable.
Germany has a very big culture of voluntary work (Ehrenamt). Most firefighters, the THW (technical aid), Red cross, Tafeln (food supplies) sport clubs (Vereine) and many more, work as volunteers without payment. So there are a lot of possibilities to engage socially without having churches or religion envolved.
Many, if not most, German societies for social welfare have a historical background in the church. Of the six major welfare organisations in Germany, one is based in the union structure (AWO), one is somewhat leftist in origin (Der Paritätische), one is political neutral (Red Cross) and three are clearly religious in background (Caritas, Diakonie, ZWST). One reason is that the religious groups had organizational structures for centuries, so it was easy to extend that. Individual projects or societies may exist under that umbrella without being "devoted".
@@joergsonnenberger6836 Another reason may be that paranoid rulers in earlier centuries did not want their subjects meeting together, for fear that they might be plotting their overthrow, but they could not ban religious gatherings. So a lot of early trade guilds and suchlike started out in religious guise as a group of bakers, or surgeons, or whatever, who had come together to celebrate a particular saint's day at the cathedral, and built their other activities around that link. Hospitals often had an explicit religious affiliation for that reason, not because all of those who wished to build one thought they were thereby saving their souls. In earlier times, before company law developed, it was easier to set up a religious fraternity than a secular voluntary association.
I am a German (Catholic listed, but not practising) who spent some years in the U.S. Bible belt. I found religion and society just as confusing in the US as in Germany. U.S. public schools are supposed to be completely secular, but at the same time teachers and students alike were openly devoutly Christian. Being not devoutly Christian or having another religion all together could quickly make you an outsider. In Germany I attended a Catholic convent school. We had prayer sessions every morning, mass and religious studies as a mandatory subject. At the same time the overall environment was a very liberal and tolerant one. The school was open to everyone regardless of their religious affiliation. Muslim girls were allowed to wear head scarves. The curriculum followed the state's standard curriculum including sex education and evolution theory. Of course there were also downsides. As the school was bound to Catholic Church law it was compelled to fire homosexual teachers once these officially got married (previously the same rule applied to divorcees) Neither the school nor the student body were too much in favour of this rule. Personally I am not a practising Catholic as I don't agree with the teachings of the church. However I am an active member by means of voluntary work. I am a youth leader and member of the city's volunteer squad. Still, like many of my friends and colleagues, you won't find me in church on a Sunday.
@@xela6349 In the village where I grew up in Southwestern Germany, the Protestants were the biggest bunch of bigots you can imagine, with many of their beliefs seeming to still dwell in Medieval times… In our area, the Catholic minority were the tolerant, modern ones.
@@Aine197 that doesn't reflect my experience at all. With Protestants even women can become priests, our priests can marry and much more. I'd call that öeagues more progressive than the catholics.
You seemed to imply that most people pay the Kirchensteuer, but anyone can opt out of it. That just means that you can’t get married or buried by the church. Or does it also affect other church services such as day care centers?
I grew up in the East of Germany, which is even less religious than what the average tells you. So coming to Western Germany for my job, I had a bit of a culture shock even within Germany (I am not religious in the slightest). That being said, you specifically asked if being religious is a stereotype we have of Americans, and yes, that is very much the case. For me, personally, religion in America seems to be more... hm... on the offensive? For lack of a better word? In Germany, it most often feels like a live-and-let-live approach, which seems very different to the US. I've not been to America myself, yet, so I don't have personal experience (yet?). But things I've seen in (American) documentaries made me pretty uncomfortable even from my home thousands of miles away.
Was religion driven underground in the former DDR? I know that it was in the USSR and most Eastern bloc countries where churches had to be registered so they could be controlled by the government and being a member of an unregistered church was illegal. Poland remained openly Catholic though. Religion seems to have resurfaced in Eastern Europe since the fall of communism especially in Russia with the Orthodox church there.
@Phillip Banes Except there are still a lot of American military personnel in Germany. The US still has around 40 military facilities there. The giant Ramstein air base in southwest Germany has over 50,000 US service members. It's probably hard for the locals to completely ignore what these heavily armed foreigners think.
@Phillip Banes Not having the right to bear arms means you can go to school or about your business without the fear of a mass shooting atrocity. There is freedom of speech in Germany as there is in other EU member states.
@Phillip Banes Complete BS! You can actually legally own an AR15 in Germany. And you can use it where it is safe to do so. There are severe legal hoops to jump through but it's possible - most of us just don't see any need to bother with a gun as we rarely plan mass shootings, have a lot less violent crime and a capable police force. And FYI - we have freedom of speech in article 5, pretty much at the top, of our constitution. It's not just an amendment. Do some factchecking on the BS you guys are fed over there.
As a Germany living in America, and particularly in a small town in the bible belt, I can say that I was shocked how much religion is shaping the daily life here. I lived in Denver before, and there I felt a lot more at home in terms of religion, as it was much more comparable to Germany, where religion is very much a private matter and is almost never talked about. When we moved to our current town, almost immediately when people heard that we just had moved here, the first question was about whether we had chosen our church yet. What strikes me as the most jarring difference to Germany is the amount of different denominations you find in the US, and how many people are literalists when it comes to the bible. I have met so many Young Earth Creationists (YECs) here in the US, it was quite surprised by how prevalent this believe is particularly in the rural communities here. I grew up in East Germany and I am non-religious. In general I would expect the number of non-religious people in former East Germany to be much higher than in former West Germany. To be honest I was not aware of the amount of money collected for the churches in Germany, I find this completely unjustified, and I would like to see this changed, or at least tied to stipulations on how the churches are required to spend this money. I would completely support forcing the churches to divest large amounts of the property holdings they posses in Germany if they are not directly linked to their religious or charitable work, and also mandate that pretty much all of the money collected has to be spend on essential items like charitable work and other services the church provides to their members (i.e. daycare centers etc).
Churches are businesses and their CEOs are extremely well paid. When people die there is no way to demand a refund, so it’s foolproof for the religious money printing machine.
I’m sure there is waste. But seizure of church property in England hurt the poor people because many charities and land used by the poor fell into the hands of the King and Nobles who made life many times worse for the serfs while enriching themselves. It was outright thievery and looting. What Europe need is a spiritual transformation of their hearts ♥️ to the Creator though Christ. They never let go of paganism and war which in turn destroyed them many times over. The heart is deceitful and wicked, but God tests their hearts. Europe needs a gigantic change of their minds and hearts though Holy Spirt conviction. A true Christian revival will make a change that will last!
I lived in Mannheim for 2 years in1990-92 while serving in the US Army. Having grown up in a religious faith in America I was intrigued by the difference between US and German perceptions of Religion. I think you laid it out very well and would suggest that Americans need to convert from public to private religion, and religion should be less partisan. God Bless!
Hi. I’m American (upper Midwest) but have lived in Bavaria the past 13 years. I was raised in a very Pentecostal, evangelical Baptist family, but realized at a very early age that it was not at all for me. As an adult (now 58) I have not associated with any religion and don’t intend to ever. So when I moved here, I found the idea of a church tax really strange and until I understood it thought it was some sort of a legalized mafia shakedown. But honestly, once i understood it, I don’t really consider it a “tax” at all. Taxes are not voluntary. You don’t have a choice, it’s just taken from you by force whether you like it or not. (Don’t believe it, try not paying your taxes). Church tax on the other hand is more like a fixed fee for voluntary participation that happens to be collected by the government. You are free to declare you are a non believer and therefore opt out of paying the fee, and no one from the Finanzamt is going to arrest you. Just don’t try to have a church wedding, funeral or anything like that. So in that sense, I think it is totally fair, even the portion the state keeps as it’s handling fee. As long as we are on the subject of taxes, I would love to see a video about how as an American citizen living and earning 100% abroad for years, we still have to file US income tax every year. Something that Germans living in the US would not have to do, like most of the rest of the civilized world.
_All_ of the rest of the civilised world, I think. I don't think anywhere but the US has this strange idea that taxes are still owed even if you've lived in another country for decades.
Hindu or Muslim would never be any high post in US, like prime minister of UK now, without getting demonized for his beliefs by Christians there. It would simply won’t happen.
"Church tax on the other hand is more like a fixed fee for voluntary participation that happens to be collected by the government. You are free to declare you are a non believer and therefore opt out of paying the fee, and no one from the Finanzamt is going to arrest you. Just don’t try to have a church wedding, funeral or anything like that. So in that sense, I think it is totally fair, even the portion the state keeps as it’s handling fee." But, there is a way to have a church baptism, wedding, and funeral, and not have to pay the tax: Just say that you are an Orthodox Christian. So it sounds like those people are getting a better deal than other German Christians.
That was a very good one! Compliment I life in Switzerland and opt out of chirch as early as I can remember. I heard that in USA the kinds got the "School Prayer" at the morning or salute to the flag no matter their believe or origin. Totally sick in my opinion!! In my "believe" religion people are the stupidest and the smartest among them abuse it for their agenda (Politics!). I am so happy to not be an (North) American or life there, so I am "allowed" to have my own Opinion and Believes :-D
I think that much of what you call religion is actually a mix of religion and culture. If you understand Christianity as a mind set that determines how people think and act and then why, the differences are probably not all that big. Religion in Germany and Europe has been much more pervasive in society than it ever was in the USA. You can see that if you read books like "Unter dem Rad" of Hermann Hesse. When these ties were untangled, the church lost a lot of its religious and cultural meaning, arguably because of these ties. The USA inherited a lot of what is called the protestant church in Germany. The USA never had a strong church integrated into the state. Instead it was a safe haven for many religious splinter groups emigrating from Europe which led to these strange but in a way also awesome religious islands. Imagine to be a child visiting a catholic church service. This is so far removed from anything meaningful, that I always found it surprising that one or two kids in my class actually went to church regularly. Services in the USA are entirely different, even from protestant German traditions. If I would live in Jamaica, I would attend services if for no other reason than the entertainment value. I have the impression that Germans are pretty much not religious in terms of everything that is procedural or mystic. On the other hand, if you look at the philosophy of Christianity, Germans might generally live more by these standards than even US evangelists. I think the reason for the differences is more than anything else a result of the church being more of a political institution than a religion over a period of many centuries. In the USA, this is a rather recent role and even today, there is no such thing as "a church".
The protestant church of Germany of today is completely different from American protestant churches though. I think the American protestant churches compare much more to what we in Germany would call "free churches". The American protestants probably even call themselves the same as one the 20 protestant churches that are part of the German protestant church synod (yet in reality there are no differences between these 20 churches anymore, they all act as one entity) but they don't act like any of the German protestant churches. Free churches however are always seen as a bit weird from my experience, their members tend to be much more religious or "holy" in their behavior yet that's still not the same as some American churches. Take the Baptist church for example, it also exists in Germany but there are just 82,000 members. And some parts of society say they're like a cult or sect, so everything apart from the catholic church and the official protestant church, although there being 20 protestant churches that form the German protestant church organization but ultimately do, preach and teach the same with the same iconography and the same rituals, is seen as a bit weird, too religious one might say.
@@klamin_original I was not so much referring to the protestant church, but more to the various groups such as calvinists, all the precursors of the US mormons and also the lutherian and of course the anglican church. In Europe and especially in Germany, most protestant groups were pressed into a single group by the conflict with the catholic church and eventually mostly integrated into the lutherian stream, that's at least my understanding. Many who did not fit in emigrated to the USA or dissolved over time. There are many fundamental culteral differences between the US and continental Europe that seem to have their foundations in these distinct protestant groups, such as f.e. the concept that I call 'retrospective merit' for lack of a better term. By that I mean that wealth is often considered to be a kind of divine approval in the US and in itself is a sign of merit, while in Europe people are much more critical of this concept. No European would ever claim that Elon Musk is doing Gods work. Instead Europeans would immediately ask what would qualify a car and rocket manufacturer to make the rules of the town square we had to abide by. I don't know how conscious this is, but wealth is a quality beyond question for many Americans, that's at least how I interpret this. Whether this really is a consequence of Calvinism, I'm not sure, but considering that this is one of the few cultural departures between the US and Europe, it is convincing to me. Christian splinter groups in Germany are in my books pretty much sects, mostly because the big two churches have been so deeply integrated in society that a small splinter group defies the concept of traditional religions. And of course groups like Jehowas witnesses actually check all the points you would look for in a sect, in the more abusive sense. Their teachings are mostly the same, but considering how very political small departures are, these distinctions often lead to strange effects (Like why would Christianity preclude modern healing methods, when Jesus did wonders to heal people). I'm currently living in a Muslim country, where about 98% of the population are Muslims and I see the Mosques being filled with practicing Muslims every friday and still active every day. I don't have numbers about how many are actually practicing, but this is very unoppressive. People, especially younger generations, are drinking alcohol openly, are rather promiscuous, undogmatic and very tolerant. To my best knowledge, religion was never much of a decisive factor in politics here, except for the aftermath of the Arab Spring in which an Islamic party got to power and tried to establish a connection between politics and religion, with moderate success. This seems to be a situation that is somewhere in between Germany and the USA. People are actively religious but that is more of a private matter that does not spill over much into society, despite the conformity. As long as you don't marry into families with diverging practices, religion is not much of a topic in daily live as long as you don't touch personal sensibilities. Pretty much how its supposed to be. Yet another aspect that might be different is that Germany (as well as much of continental Europe) had its enlightenment based on a Christian philosophy. That added secular values that were mostly compatible with religious values with the most prominent feature that it did not necessarily require divine ascension. Kant's categorical imperative is pretty much the same as the Christian dogma, but it's based on its functional benefit and not justified as message from Jesus. So people could do the right thing either because they believe that this is God's will or just because it's reasonable. This process of coming to terms with morals in that ambivalent view port is something that occupied European societies for a long time but is not really part of US culture and not even that of the UK which had a parallel evolution that, though similar in many aspects was always distinct from the continental process. In Germany you will often find an assumption that if something is reasonable it can't really be in conflict with religion. You will find that attitude often in people who are non-practicing believers (by believer I mean those who actually believe, not those who categorise themselves as Christians, which is not quite the same group).
@@nonnoyobisnis8705 Republicans use religion as part of their southern strategy. Their problem is that demography favours Democrats and both parties are so similar in their profile that Republicans were pretty much out of options to preserve their role as one of the two parties. The only feasible choice for the Republicans was to polarise the voter pool and adopt more and more fringe topics to preserve their base. The vast majorities of topics that are currently considered traditional conservative positions are actually not at all part of the classical conservative canon in the US. Most of them have been adopted recently. If you consider that despite all the creative manipulations like excessive gerrymandering, hyper-opportunistic hypocrisy and all that, Republicans can barely get a majority in the popular vote, it's easy to see why this new craziness is pretty much a necessity. I don't see that Republicans and Religion are really connected, other than that they found a very effective way to cooperate for very profane reasons. But you find the same hypocrisy with Democrats, they just pay much more attention to decorum. I consider this two party system in the US as completely dysfunctional. That's not only the responsibility of the Republicans, even though they are particularly ugly in recent times.
I am from Argentina, half Italian and half German (with close cultural bonds to both), and non-religious. Further I am very familiar with American culture, having visited on business a couple of hundred times, from coast to coast. That said, I find the United States the most religious country in the world, neck to neck with India. No Western or rich country remotely comes close. And the explanation lies in history: a land of people seeking religious freedom. So religious independence and separation of church and state is strong to this day. Nowhere else have sects flourished like in the USA, mostly XIXth century (mormons, Christian Science, etc). Germany is also special and different to the rest of Europe, and today's situation derives from the Reformation and importantly the bloody wars of religion (which didn't much touch southern Europe). Nowhere else do you have 2 denominations of roughly equal size. And what has kicked in on both sides of the Atlantic (and elsewhere) is secularism. People are giving up on all religions in droves. Increasingly larger and larger groups view of themselves as cultural christians, jews, etc. Yet religions will not disappear altogether. Some people need them to carry on with their lives. If 90 years of firebrand communist atheism did not stamp out orthodoxy from Russia, I suppose nothing will. Yet strangely just 50 years of marxism succeded in bringing down religions in East Germany to 10% of the population. The difference is remarkable.
Notice all the combatents in that insane war in Ukraine are all Christians and sickeningly rich Bourgeois. Like WW1 sending the workers and peasantry to their deaths to expand their loot. Sadly their is no Hell for the Geriatrics and no chance of buying everlasting life. Maybe like the Jonestown Horror they want to take us all with them. They all live long lives like Pope Benedict ex Hitler Youth! Putin expects cannonisation as a direct descendent of Stalin being painted as an Ikon by Orthodoxy! Candles all the way!
I have never really understood Culture. Ther was an old lady who explained culture in one of those talk shows here in New Zealand who stated that culture was the icing on the cake and the cake was customs which I understand. Mainly culture in my view is emotions long quickly sequestered by religion who monopolise emotions. Only they having humanity!
I read a paper once that argued (and showed statistics to prove it) that some of the differences we see today between the East and the West in Germany can already be seen in 1920ies/30ies Germany. For instance church attendance was already lower. So the basic religiosity in East Germany and Russia was very different when they met „Marxism“.
From what I have heard communism in Russia tried to stamp out religion there, but after some time they realized that they can use it to improve status of leader of their party, so that is maybe explanation of why religion stayed there. Maybe also fact that poor exUSSR countries usually rebounced back into religion after regime fell, with richer countries not so much it seems, why? Hard to say for sure.
I met an American woman in Germany who was shocked when I casually mentioned that I did not believe in God. No English person would even have raised an eyebrow
There's a joke in Norway; paranoia is when you're seated at the front row in church and think there's someone behind you.
Ohhh! 😮😂
Good one. Although I have to point out: I was on a business trip to Norway last year; my first trip to this country.
I spent time in Tonstad, Agder and there were three or four different churches in this town of 800 people. And I slept at the only place where you could rent little huts to be self sufficient in the area, the Tonstadli Ferie, Kurs og Misjonssenter.
At first I did not really recognize anything, but on the third day there came a youth group and they worshipped and prayed all over the place.
A friend had met a Norwegian woman, married her and moved to Norway and since I had to go to a bigger center anyhow to apply for a Norwegian tax number, I visited them in Kristiansand and told them about this. Her reply: „AAAAAh …. you are living in THAT area.“
She called it the Norwegian bible belt.
@@Kref3: We do have a bible belt, but based on what you've told me, that conclusion was hasty. I am a very strong anti-theist, because the theists wants you do believe in people rather than divinities or the gifts they may have given us. I only care about the gift and not the giver. I worship the gift, I don't need to know where it came from. I can speak for Jesus Christus, Muhammed, Samson, Robin Hood or Hallvard Vebjørnsson. My job is to solve problems for the children. What other people say or feel, is of no concern of mine.
@@jeschinstad In the end just respect everyone. It makes the world better
I heard that Norwegians dont like their own relatives, the Germans. Very bizarre.
Hi Asthon, as a non-religious German who has been to the USA a number of times, I noticed that the way of living faith is different. In Germany, it is the basic religious values that we try to incorporate into our culture. That is why many social institutions, such as hospitals or kindergartens, are church-based. In the US, on the other hand, I have the feeling that it is more about practicing the rituals on a daily basis and following the written rules exactly. Another big difference is that science beats religion. In Germany you will find almost no one who denies the Big Bang or evolution and who really believes that God did it all in seven days. I experienced that differently in the USA, which frightened me quite a bit.
i guess it also comes from the two sides of view, from European one the Pilgrims of the Mayflower where Religious extremists at their time, from the point of American view there where ejected cause of their faith and for me i think the truth is somewhere in the middle. and from this point of "schism" both are developed differently...
Thats true. Although I am a German who doesn't believe in science. I believe in what the Bible says. Thats why I like "the american way" better.
@@All_in_for_JESUS danke für den witz
@@All_in_for_JESUS Quite a strange statement, since science cannot be an object of belief. Hence, one cannot "believe" (or not believe) in science. Science is a system in which rationally acceptable, empirically or theoretically testable knowledge can be gained. This is pretty much the opposite of merely uncritically accepting any "truth" in the form of a religion.
@@SirHeinzbond Pilgrims were Puritans. They were the ISIS of 17th century Europe, led by Cromwell. Responsible for eliminating 40 % of Ireland's population in 4 years. English kicked them out and brought back the king!
As a German the idea of a daily pledge of allegiance is just completely crazy to me. If someone proposed children should start doing that here, I think most people would assume they are some kind of Nazi.
Why would you say that? As you know Adolf Hitler was a traitor to the Fatherland, he got a lot of Germans killed in World War II. Germany would have been in a lot better shape had Hitler not entered politics, there would have been no East Bloc or Cold War had it not been for Hitler. The Berlin Wall would not have been built had Hitler never rose to power. How do you come to the conclusion that Hitler was a patriot?
I'm Italian, so fascism I the first thing that comes to mind and right after that comunism...
@@daniby9894 Italy lost the Roman Empire, and now we have the Russian Empire going into decline all because Communism ruined it. Why would Italy be interested in following in the footsteps of a declining empire. Communism led to Putin, and it's as simple as that, Russia isn't even good at conquering neighboring countries anymore, all they can do is commit random acts of murder and destruction with their long range weapons.
The difference being is in America, when we recite The Pledge of Allegiance, we are pledging our loyalty to our nation and to our compatriots. It isn't a pledge to a political party or to a leader.
"I Pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands. One nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
@@thunderwalker2000 and that's called a nationalist or nationalism. And that's just the beginning. You need to do more research on the pledge and how is was implemented etc. Not all Americans will stand with you on your pledge.
From a newcomer, American Christian:
I was raised as a Christian from two caring parents, but I left the church young and I was never truly old enough to understand what I was being taught. I knew God was love though, because it was what I was taught. So it always stuck with me that God is love. That Jesus loved. That we are to love, and forgive.
But when I looked around, I saw a "Christian nation" that left human beings to starve on the streets, stepping over them like they were trash.
I watched countless couples divorce, cheat on each other and lie to each other. I saw these supposed "Christians" praise our leaders and our military for every bomb dropped on another country, and I saw pure apathy for the countless poor souls across our planet who desperately needed help.
I saw them happy to buy big houses and nice cars, and feel superior over people who couldn't.
I often saw everything in people, besides Christ himself.
It was later I realized, the image of Christ and his holiness had become nothing more than a status symbol for some people. They'd go to church or read a passage or two just to simply say they did. To feel that they were a part of this light, and others were not. Wearing God on your neck to some people here, may as well be like wearing a Gucci or Balenciaga bag.
It is not what we say, but what we do that truly exposes our faith and our heart.
Because of this very nature in America, I didn't want to believe what I was seeing was truly God.
So I went searching myself for what these kinds of folk must have forgotten.
John 13:34: "I give you a new commandment: love one another. Just as I have loved you, you must also love one another".
Thank you for your Belief. Lord Comfort and Bless you. Even on a Topic of Religion one could think there would be some light but you show light where you can Yes with Love! I'm Born Again.. The word Religious is too Ambiguous... Apparently The Lord does not have to be in that-sad... His Character is Key...The Christ. We are less afraid the more we Study His Book. As He submitted to The father we know how valuable Humility and Kindness are:)
So, your picture of God is framed by the actions of sinners ( which we all are according to the scriptures). Do yourself a favor, and don't walk into the Church doors with just your emotions, and leaving your brain in the jar beside the door.
@@markwellsfry9843 nope
Read some Scripture Mark...it's good for you Matthew 11:28-32...or 1 Corinthians 13:4-8. It's not who goes to "church" but HE created The Church which are those that Believe and Follow Him. He is The Backbone and I hardly knew till I was Born Again! John Chapter 3 HE exhorts Priest Nicodemus to follow Him. The Character of God is way above us. Emotion is fleeting. If your aim is to be divisive That is cruel or maybe funny to you but dying with our knowing Jesus Christ is far from funny. Lord Bless you Mark! He knows our every step to protect.
As a German, I look at it this way: The US seems to take Christianity very seriously, but only as long as it doesn't conflict with their other major religion - Capitalism. That's why there are no Sunday closings, religious holidays or church taxes.
You nailed it. Capitalism is the religion here. Despite the fairly liberal policies in the Bible (the early christians shared all things in common, or when Jesus plainly states that you cannot serve both God and money, or even the old testament teaching of the Jubilee), christians here are almost universally assumed to be conservatives. Christianity is hardly more than a wedge used to separate people by our political hacks or as an instrument of exclusion and oppression.
Many businesses choose not to be open on Sunday, as is their right. Chik-Fil-et drive throughs being one example. That's their right and their choice to be open or not for business. True freedom of religion. As for Capitalism, that too is a choice. It becomes a choice of what matters most, I suppose. Money or belief. Chik-Fil-et can make millions more on one day , (Sunday), if they stayed open for that day, but they made a belief choice choice in running their business not to do so. Just like when they chose not to hire homosexuals. It's their company and business. It's them taking the risk of losing or making money based upon what they feel is the correct thing to do. They either make money or not, based on their beliefs. If a Government says, "You must hire people that believe (in any controversial thing) and open your doors on a day you feel is a day of rest, then you can not do business here. That is against freedom of religion. Forcing a person, (or company), to adhere to the Government mandated non-religious philosophy and forcing them to do a thing that they do not believe is is tyrannical.
@@johnclayton2101Going by that argument, you must oppose any kind of regulation, is that so?
@@davidlarue727 Nonsense. They are evolved beings, from billions of years of natural selection and other processes. Just as you are.
@@davidlarue727 You go on believing that all you want. I, however, demand evidence, and your fantasy has none.
The thing to remember about courses on religion in European schools (in some countries at least) is that they are not courses on Christianity but on multiple religions.
That's what I was immediately wondering, since we had a class Levensbeschouwing in the Netherlands which basically is teaching you about different religions and philosophies
Not in germany, theres catholic and protestant religion class and a secular ethics class
When I went to school (30 years ago) in Sweden religion was on the curriculum, and all major religions and some smaller was part of it, but if memory serves me right it was leaning more to christianity.
@@kritan84 that's very close to the British religious studies/religious education of 20ish years ago.
Meanwhile in Poland it's literally just catholic religion classes or how i saw it in high school one hour less in school (as it isn't required class)
As an atheist German who grew up in the East and only moved to the South in his late twenties, I was astonished to actually meet (a handful of) people there who openly admitted to believing in God. It shook me, as I was convinced (from personal experience) that religion had been dead since WW2. When I then visited the USA for a few months in my thirties, I was blown away again by co-workers sharing religious psalms on facebook (where it was almost mandatory to "befriend" anyone you met in real life immediately) and even hearing them talk loudly about how abortion is sin, non-hetero-love is sin, not going to church on Sundays is sin etc.; Where I am from, this would cost you your job, or at least it would make you an outcast in any work setting.
I like the amount of research and post-production you put into this video, thanks for that. I felt that you presented the American system way too chaste, though. From my experience, admitting to not believing in God is almost synonymous with committing societal suicide in the USA, definitely if you're a politician. That's surely the main reason why almost all Congressmen and Presidents have identified as Christian.
On the German part, I barely recognized my country, but that may be just the difference in our respective points of view. Church holidays have almost no meaning to the average German, and besides Christmas and Eastern I bet that 90% could not even correctly explain what is being celebrated. Mostly those are traditional days off, where you use the free day to barbequeue and drink beer with friends, not even once thinking about anything religious. The church buildings themselves, to me, are exactly the same as the old castles. Historical heritage sites we need to preserve for their cultural and historical worth, not because they serve any function in today's world. I also felt that you overplayed the role of church tax in Germany. Only half the population is a member of one of the churches eligible for tax, and of those only a smaller part is still in the work age group. And even for them, church tax is quite limited, amounting to just 50-100 Euros a month on average. Yes, that's some money, but if you would tithe in church every Sunday, that would just amount to about 12-25 USD per person. Personally, if I was a church member, I would rather pay that than actually have to sit through an hour of sermon every Sunday.
What I felt you missed in this video was the church bells. Many Americans told me they found it strange that even today, church bells would ring regularily at least once per hour, sometimes even four times per hour, in almost all German cities and villages. This is something I took for granted, even though for us it was purely for time keeping purposes.
Still, a very well made video, and great handling of a potentially explosive topic.
Well if I posted psalms on Facebook no one would bother or even think of firing me. I wouldn't post them on linkedin though.
I agree with a lot of what you said. I'm from Northern Germany and the idea that people nowadays are actually religious and would openly talk about believing in God didn't exist to me until I was a teenager who heard a Muslim girl talk about praying. The number of people who pray daily that she mentioned in the video actually kind of shocked me in how big it was. I also distinctly remember going to Southern Germany for the first time and thinking there had been a lot of tragic car accidents because of all the roadside crosses. I know that on paper, the separation between church and state sounds insufficient in Germany, but no politician, not even in the literal Christian party that ruled our country for years, would ever argue with Bible quotes or talk about God outside of strictly religious contexts.
I also feel like the point that at a funeral, you'd be asked if you paid your taxes, was a bit overstated. Church membership does count for something, and that means paying the taxes, but there are a lot of things in daily life you can participate in that are church organised where noone asks about your official affiliations. There's no such thing as an ID showing your legal religion.
This was such an informative and fascinating video on an interesting and complex topic.
P
Good letter Herr Paladin from New Zealand. A land that believes in nothing but grass cutting and car driving!
@@mikefay5698 Well driving a car and cutting the grass are still much more sensible things to do than going to church; that's a serious waste of time !
My Canadian perspective is so different, I was in school in the 1950’s to 70’s, my kids from 70’s to 90’s and grand kids for the last 15 years. Not once has any of us taken a religious course of any sort in public schools in 2 provinces. Back in my day we did sing God save the Queen in assemblies and some sort of prayer for Remembrance Day assemblies. Politicians usually keep religious affiliations private and the majority of Canadians like it that way.
But I guess there are ethics classes in Canada, are there? Religion and personal beliefs shaped many societies to this day and therefore it is important to understand which ideas and theories are behind. This is what religion class in europe is all about. no one would ever ask you to say a prayer in this classes. this would be a reason to complain about the teacher, because it would just be wrong. they have to treat the topic of belief systems in a scientific way, just like a sociologist would do.
@ As far as Europe is concerned, it would be impossible to acquire any proper grasp of our history without some understanding of the religious divisions which have shaped it, and over which major wars have been fought.
Instruction in a particular religion (unless you attend a specifically religiously affiliated, generally private, school) is a matter for "Sunday school", and organized by churches, synagogues and mosques themselves, not part of the public school curriculum.
To be fair, a lot of Americans say they “believe in the god of the bible”, then proceed to not know anything that’s written in the bible, except some popular verses.
And they get very mad when you actually read the bible
@@zwojack7285 I didn’t really encounter a whole lot of issues. It might be different in the bible belt. But in Wisconsin most people just countered with “well, you aren’t a scholar, are you?”
er, that phrase may not be what you think it is... It's intended to clarify which god they follow. There are all sorts of people who claim to practice some sort of ethical belief system, yet the god they follow is clearly Bael. And expecting everyone to have memorized the entire bible word for word, as proof of their piety, is you applying very poor logic! 🤨 to something that you clearly do not understand at all.
@@jaspermartin7444 "I don't believe in Gott, Dio, Yah, Dios, Dieu, Allah, Yahweh, El or Jehovah. I believe in God, the one true God: the God that introduced Himself by that name in the American language." - Daniel (who, in a foreign tongue, was known as Belteshazzar)
Mormon?
A small perspective as a Frenchman that lives in Germany (North) for 10 years. I am a teacher so I can give a small perspective on the school aspect.
I come from a culture (France) that has a hard separation between church and state. First of all, I am still very surprised and almost shocked at how widespread the church is in... everything, like the Kitas. I am always wary of the church.
However the "religion" subject at school is another topic. It is not "bible school" at all. The teachers that do that had religious studies behind them and bring an academic understanding of religion as their main background. Of course, especially the catholic side, the church still controls partly who can become such a teacher, but all young teachers I met see this as a unwanted element that needs to go.
The course itself, if done right, is very very far from a church sponsored catechism as it can be. I was surprised at how enriching a well made religion course is, and it has nothing to do with your personal faith. It is a course where students learn about religions in general and about associated ethics. I am definitely less opposed to that now that I saw it "in action" and it is important to understand that this really isn't catechism, it is a course about religion in general with an academic background of the teachers.
It’s ethics basically. Often religious class is replaced with ethics in upper class levels or schools without a designated religious class
yes, precisely. It gives the children a base knowledge of the religion (mainly the one, that it is focused on, but other religions are discussed as well). But the religion is in no way forced on the children. The focus is on knowledge, not believe.
A nice perspective. Thank you.
This is extremely important to understand. German "religion class" teachers have to study theology at a state university for several years. Theology is a scientific subject.
You cannot compare that to the US at all where in rural Alabama a "religion class" in school would mean that some batshit crazy preacher from the local church with zero actual education on religious theory would come and preach in front of little children.
There is a strange "wrinkle" in the religious classes. The mandatory "trade schools" that every apprentice has to attend also have religious classes. However, it is completely voluntarily and your final marks at the end of school are calculated with religion or without it if you didn't participate. What that means is, if you get a D or worse in your religious class there is absolutely no incentive to stay in the class because it hurts your final mark. That leads to the teacher usually handing out Cs or better marks even if the person attending isn't doing anything in class whatsoever besides being there. Otherwise nobody would be there, making his class basically obsolete and his job.
Great video! I have to point out though that the church tax only applies if you are a member of a church and not just a citizen of Germany. A lot of people identify as Christian but don't want to pay for the dubious institutions of churches. Also the religion classes are not really worship based but more educational about what religions are about, what they want to teach, their history etc. So even as an agnostic I did enjoy those classes before I chose to switch them for ethics classes
Indeed, less than half of the German population is stil a member of the church and pays those church taxes. In fact an increasing number of Germans leave the church every year - in 2022 more than 900.00 alone (catholics and protestants combined).
Thank you for this clarification!
Also notable that for many people, the church acts more like a social institution and/or service provider than an actual religion. People like to have a group they can identify with, moral guidance, and pastoral care, but that doesn't necessarily mean they genuinely believe the church's teachings, especially not literally. The notion of god as a divine being is more and more replaced by a much more abstract concept, something people "believe" into when it has some benefit for them.
One important detail: you can opt out of the general church tax in Germany, if you are not religious / atheist etc., or for example "exit" your church (as in excommunication as a catholic). However, a large part of the general taxes every citizen, no matter their religious affiliation (or lack thereof) pays, still goes to the churches regardless. The "church tax" as declared on your tax statements is just a small part of what the church actually receives from the state.
@@maltemalone5444 The churches receive money for providing non-religious services like hospitals.
"Sometimes living in the United States feels like living in a bubble"
Yeah this is interesting as (in my oppinion as a european) europeans of the 21st century are extreamly close-minded and unable to see things outside of their own experience.
Lots of us europeans have simply replaced religion with secularism and lgbtq+ idiology.
If you're raised in a conservative and/or religious community it's seen as "close-minded" or "in a bubble", but if you're raised in an equally close minded community where disagreement is seen as evil blasphemy but the bibles are replaced with rainbow-flags then that's 100% fine and not "bubbled" at all, just modern and progressive.
Thoughts?
I don't know where you're getting the idea of LGBT+ acceptance being a cult. It's scientifically clear that being gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender, asexual etc is biologically natural and we can make life a lot better for everyone by accepting them for who they are without harming anyone.
I think there is one important issue that you missed, that't privacy. In Germany, it is very uncommon and truly regarded as inapporpriate to talk about your religious beliefs. You simply do not ask, question or quizz people's religion or religious beliefs. Debates on what you believe or should believe are unthinkable. Whilst the church has a strong role in public life, you hardly find priest on the TV arguing a particular religious point of view. Public advertisement for religion is nonexistent. Asking a friend or colleague to come join you for church service at "your" church is about as appropriate as suggesting to join his preferred swinger club. To me, the public pervasiveness of (basically Christian) religion and the open competition-style promotion of one's own religious views are the most striking cultrural differnces between Germany and the US.
Well, I find the more religious a person is, the more likely they are going to ask about it. Still remember a colleague of my mother visiting Bavaria and getting asked by the boarding house owner what religion she has, when she arrived. She answered that she doesn't have one and the owner was like "How can you not have a religion?!".
I always though to myself that I would have picked up my belongings and left for another boarding house or hotel, as it wasn't the owner's damn business.
I also have colleagues that are religious, believing in a god but in their own way, not necessarily being part of a specific church. Everytime they are telling me stories and hinting at their believes, it makes me feel uncomfortable as I don't really want to start telling them that I don't believe in magic man. Especially odd when you have professors in scientific fields that require logic, that believe in something so illogical.
Btw, I saw poster ads for "Bibel TV" or something like this near where we lived before. So there as some religious advertisements in Germany after all. Not man though.
@@moomah5929 It seems there is Germany, and then there is Bavaria. Let's settle on: Bavaria is just different.
Maybe. But it's also that we just don't care about religion. If someone asked me join them at their church I have to assume it's a crazy person that wants me to become a member of a cult.
Even Jehovas Witnesses had to give up their house visits.
I find "as described in the bible" funny. The interpretations of what the bible says vary extremely.
As a naturalized citizen in the USA (originally from the Netherlands) I’ve become more anti religion over time as a result of the in your face religiousness that exists here. Many people here will point out the religious extremism that exists in other parts of the world, but don’t seem to have a clue that the same goes on here. The hypocrisy is rather mind blowing. As time goes on, I appreciate the secular societies more and more! One more thing….the “under god” in the pledge of allegiance was something that was added during the 1950s when the red scare was on full tilt display.
yes but the pledge of allegiance was also written by a socialist so it all balances out.
Riiiight, and you know it all? Good job on proving my point.
@@bartwensink6445 Exactly. You know exactly where the religious nuts can go.
"They hate religious extremism in other parts of the world but are hypocrites because the same thing happens here!!!"
Oh sorry, I didn't realize radical Christians are driving around in trucks with turrets mounted in the bed, walking the streets with AK47s, and starting insurgency wars with local and national authorities. But according to you, that's happening.
@@jesusdios9809 Lmao
From a German perspective the American religious practice is really "jumping into the face". Here in Germany anybody telling you unasked about his god is just seen as an annoying oddball and most people don't discuss the topic at all, because telling each other about how little they care doesn't make an interesting conversation. Because of this, the idea of public prayer not only feels strange, but even like forcing the believe onto others.
Imagine somebody preaching at a street corner in Berlin or Cologne. My first reaction would be: high, drunk or mental health issues?
There are a couple things you don't ask people in Germany: Their salary, their political affiliation, and their religious beliefs.
@@andreabartels3176 In Bremen the answeris Jejovas witnesses.
@@neoncyberia Nobody cares if you're both Christian. For every other combination, people do care.
We do not say, "jumping into the face". We say in your face or hits you (square) in the face or is really in your face.
Because in Germany, everyone has become agnostic/atheist, your nation has abandoned the basis of European civilization and greatness, post ancient Rome and Greece.
As an American Christian, I'm struck by how many Europeans are shocked and frightened that Americans take their faith seriously.
You've got that wrong.
The shoking part is the ignorance and hatefulness of many of these religious people....
@RoninTF2011 Not every person of faith is ignorant and hateful. Judging a group of people by the actions of a few is unfair.
@@richardlahan7068 did I say that?
@@richardlahan7068 ...see, thats the second problem I have with many religious. They too often seem to reply to their own assumtions, rathen then to what is actually said..
When, years ago, I lived in a Bavarian city, I suffered a serious personal crisis. My own religion had shunned me but I found solace in attended mass in the local cathedral. I understood some German and I was impressed by the singularity of the message I heard there. Everything focused on Jesus and his preaching. Not politics, not psychology, not entertainment. Today 45 years later I belong to a Protestant church in the USA. I think the presence of a formal church in Germany contributed.
Thank you for sharing. I think it's very interesting that you believe that Jesus was not political and that his teaching is not relevant to politics, psychology, or art today. As a Catholic I don't understand how anyone who studies Christianity could reach such a conclusion, including in Bavaria. I hope that your new church is enriching for you in other ways though. God bless!
As a Christian German I am always astounded by how much religion is used as an argument point in political discussions in the US. Take the very recent change in abortion law for example, there were very loud voices from the religious community bringing their beliefs in as arguments. I have also seen this in other discussions in the US, but very rarely in Germany. Which is astounding to me, because as you said you have a separation of state and government and we don't. Nevertheless even as a Christian in German I would never use my personal beliefs to argue a side in a political discussion, because I realise that my beliefs can't be the reason everybody is forbidden or allowed to do something. And I don't mean to imply that American Christians don't share this standpoint but there is (or at least appears to be) a (maybe small I don't know) group of very loud and seemingly very influencing Christians leading public political discussions. And that's something that's far quieter in Germany in my experience, even though we have a Christian party (CDU) - I actually have never seen them use the bible as an argument, though.
If other Germans disagree, please correct me, I certainly don't live in the most religious parts of the country so I might not have seen it for that reason, also I'm only one person and of course can only offer my perspective (which might be inconclusive).
I agree, you describe this very well. Its funny, how during lunch its no problem at all to discuss politics and still enjoy each others company and viewpoints here in Germany. In the US this was almost not possible, because people were afraid to hurt other peoples feelings.
"Nevertheless even as a Christian in German I would never use my personal beliefs to argue a side in a political discussion, because I realise that my beliefs can't be the reason everybody is forbidden or allowed to do something." I don't think that that perspective holds water, because in liberal democracies, people vote to forbid and allow things based on beliefs that they know their fellow citizens do not hold, all the time, if it were otherwise, then unanimous consent would be required to forbid or allow something, which is not how any liberal democracy works as far as I know.
@@Sewblon I disagree. Most other choices, votes etc I decide on personal beliefs, yes, but those are, at least for me, based on scientific research. When I decide my political position regarding climate change, economics or social politics, sure those are my personal beliefs, but founded on the belief that we need a planet in 50 years or that everyone should have food and shelter. I think that's a big difference to basing decisions on the will of an entity I believe exists but have no actual proof on.
Scientific research is subject to interpretation, so unless you're actually *the* bigbrain scientist yourself running all the equations and doing the interpreting that is then broadcast by the media apparatus, yeah, you are functionally still operating on what you believe to be legitimate.
@@Pheephy27 Proof isn't what defines science. Not unless you are talking about mathematics. The theory of general relativity is science. But, its also likely to be incorrect, because it can't explain how gravity works at the sub atomic scale. So its clearly not proven or verified. The idea that everyone should have food and shelter, is really not accessible to proof or scientific investigation in any way that the idea that God exists is not accessible to proof or scientific investigation. We can prove that everyone should have food and shelter or that god exists if we just assume all the necessary assumptions. Scientific investigation could easily illuminate the truth or falsehood of any of those assumptions in either case. So, I think that you are drawing the line between science and non-science in a way that does not hold up under scrutiny.
I’m French and visited the US in May. Three guys in the streets of Chicago stopped me to ask me if I believe in God, then when I said no they tried to give me arguments to reconsider my belief. It wasn’t rude or anything and very interesting, but you wouldn’t never see that in France.
You'd be asked if you believe in Mohammed in France 😂
C'est vrai non?
@@ShomoGoldburgler I've never known Muslims to proselytize in quite the same way as Christians.
Religion also isn't a very public matter for most people in a lot of countries other than the US, so it is very weird to come up to someone in public and start talking about religion. In Canada a lot of people are religious but there are a lot of different religions and we consider it to be generally a private matter that you are free to practice but we accept that everyone is different and religion is not a matter of debate so we don't usually talk about it.
@@DevynCairns
Islam is being proselytized in schools, libraries etc. Imams and faithful are looking for new converts. More French people have accepted Mohammed over Jesus in their lives in the last 10 years.
They may not be with the cardboard signs in the streets, but they still look for converts.
I used to live in Chicago. Both the panhandling and the street preaching were super annoying.
Walking down a main street of Paris one afternoon I was touched in a sexual way three different times in like two hours! We often notice the things that are different that we don't like.
Thank you for giving us this unique perspective of the contrast betwe the religious culture in the US and Germany. As a colombian, the latin american perspective on christianity, generally speaking, is also a different world from what christianity means in other parts of the World.
I'm a German living in Greece. I grew up catholic, but very liberal. My parents both had taken some distance from the catholic church before I was born, even though my mother had studied catholic theology and had worked for the catholic church some years. - Or maybe because of that?
I think in Germany religious education in schools plays a big role in secularism in Germany. Because we're taught about religion in an academic way we also encounter critical thoughts about our religion and we learn about other religions, too and can compare. We're not taught to follow the book, we're encouraged to help others, to be generous, honest, brave and forgiving in our actions no matter who the other person is. We're not threatened with hell or promised to be rewarded by paradise. Instead we're taught that God is love. So I think German kids grow up with much less fear and shame connected to faith, which makes it easier to doubt the religious institutions themselves, even though you might believe in God.
I think another thing about Germany is, we're not isolated in certain communities. We grow up with children that have a different religion or are atheist. And they are our friends. So I think there's less social pressure than in certain areas in the US that are culturally more homogeneous.
Good points. I wonder if Ashton found any current statistics on this topic: US citizens who actually believe in hell or satan or the "BAD". At least when watching movies you always hear about damnation, being saved, going to hell and similar concepts that could be heard in Germany maybe in the 1950s by some old people but not today.
@@anitapenkert389 yep. In our religion course, we talked about the concepts of heaven and hell and how one may theologically interpret them. It was quite the revelation (haha) to see that hell would be living as distant and removed from god as possible while heaven would be the opposite - a really clore "relationship" with the divine, leading to a feeling of stability and security next to a "good shepherd". Take that compared to the fearmongering people who spread the belief that hell means literally burning soul for eternity and being tortured by satan.
And did I mention that "religionskritik" (criticizing religion, especially christian religion) was part of the curriculum?
Agree Helga. I add as we lernt the origin that involve geography and history, we can think in a critical way, more we learn and recherche, more we take our own decisions. In Spain is similar, we decide to pay or not taxes but we're still in our own little bubble. youngs are changing that, even my mother did it. We used to go...At the moment that you think on your own you change into be good, respect, and help, that's all. Why to spend time and give money? Spain is full with properties even castles, when they lost interest, they sold. The last time I went was enough for me, It was winter, I was sitting, after few min I realized that they had put a lot of heat machines even up in both sides on the walls and columns just for the them. They were warm and was chilling. Enough is enough. Apart other things we know in Europe for sure not in US.
LOL! A god who doesn't punish sin or reward faithfulness, doesn't require you to be faithful to Him or require you to live righteously is NOT a god of love. He is basically Satan.
@@beatlesrgear a God who is love doesn't need to punish. People punish themselves when they don't live in love but in hatred, because they live in misery.
Love is the key. A mother would give her life for her child out of love, not out of fear. Love is the strongest feeling, we have and hatred is the desire to experience love when we're unable to do so. So God is love and hatred is Satan.
Whoever thinks God/Love needs to inquire Fear to exist in a person's heart, has not experienced the gift of unconditional, true love. Instead he's corrupted by Satan, who made him believe that violence and hatred lead to Love.
I am Italian, and not 100% familiar with the German system, but we used to have mandatory religion classes in Italy as well. In the beginning, they were taught only by priests and really intended to teach Catholicism in school, but nowadays they are mostly taught by non-affiliated teachers and they cover the topic of religion and religious beliefs much more broadly. Also, like in Germany, we can opt out.
Oh, and we used to have a mandatory "church tax" as well, but now we are able to choose whether we want to give to money to the Catholic church or other religious or non-religious entities, such as NGOs.
Yeah in Germany religion classes are basically handled the same way. As in, a non-affiliated teacher talks about various religions and religious beliefs.
Although depending on the teacher there can be quite the Christian bias (Which is probably not too surprising).
Here in Finland we have classes about religion in all schools, too, but nowadays they are, like you say in Italy, not supposed to promote belief into any particular god.
But because they *used* to be for indoctrinating kids into Christian values and the teacher were the same before and after the law changed it has taken some time for it to become actual reality.
@tHe0nLyNeXuS could you still have your children baptized or marry in a church after not paying church tax anymore? Because in Germany you can also choose to not pay church tax, but that automatically means that you cannot be involved in or do any church related "activities" such as baptism or church weddings.
@@patriciarehermann6625 I am not entirely sure. I haven't been living in Italy for quite some time, now...
@@patriciarehermann6625In Italia, there is the otto per mille that means eight on one thousand of your Irpef (personal income tax) could go to a church, but it is not mandatory and people could also not express that preference or express the preference for the Italian State. In fact it is just a fiscal option expressed in your tax declaration. No one would be excluded anytime and anyway by Catholic organisations or from a religious function or service if this contribution is not paid. It would be unthinkable to exclude someone just for not having paid that amount.
Prague is the perfect example of how most (especially young) Europeans see religion today. There is a church on every corner in Prague while Prague being the capital city of the LEAST religious country in the world. Europeans see churches and religion in general as part of our culture and history but not necessarily something we need to keep practicing/following. It's kind of the same as castles. We do take care of them because they are part of our history but we don't follow or worship the leaders/royal families who built those castles
If you know anything of European history, you know that both castle and church represent the powers that brought us endless war and endless sorrow.
are you sure of that?
@@CvfdsxYes, this is why we (mostly) stopped having kings and made their castles into tourist attractions. ;)
Actually, Estonia is the least religious country on Earth.
NOT Czechia.
People like you would destroy culture and heritage. @@Cvfdsx
Born in 1946 into a very Catholic environment in Cologne, religion was an important part of life. For my parents it was normal that I had to visit Catholic schools, and church attendant at least on Sundays was a duty. Both churches had a big influence on people's life.
In the mid 1960's this started to change. More and more people officially left the church, mainly to safe paying the church tax.
I have lived in Germany for 50 years, and in my memory 'church' and 'fun' were mutually exclusive. Church was always serious. For me, religion and normal life were two completely unconnected different things.
In 1996 I moved to the UK, and there I realized a very different behaviour (mainly Church of England). Going to church seemed to be for most people something like a social event. Most of the congregation knew each other, and after the service they had a meeting with tea and cake. The minister said good bye to everyone in person. And the church buildings are used for other purposes as well, like concerts, bazaars, antique fairs etc.; something unthinkable in Germany.
In 2005 I moved to Cyprus. Here the situation is still very different. Most Cypriots see themselves as full members of the Orthodox church. But services are completely different. At the front are the priests and one 'representative' of the people. They perform their rites in a singing way, and that can go on for hours. The 'normal' visitors of the church don't really understand what is going on around the altar, and they don't care. They talk to each other, and go out and then come back in again. It is not unusual to be on the mobile phone or have a cigarette in the church. In my view (and with my background) this seems quite lacking some respect.
From the US - I have been there only for about 3 weeks in the Boston area - I don' t know anything from experience and only what I have seen on TV. There are services with the people singing and dancing, like in a disco. And there are the 'professional' preachers, for whom this is a business. Both I find quite shocking.
It should not be forgotten that in the 17th century many people who were unable to live out their religious beliefs in Europe emigrated to North America and made up a relatively high proportion of the settlers there. Seen in this light, it is not surprising that the proportion of deeply religious communities in North America is significantly higher than in Europe.
Most of the US population is made up of Economic migrants.
We basically exported religious extremists and now are wondering what went wrong. 😅
@@NeovanGoth Explains a lot about Australia doesn't it?
The European states' historical discrimination of religious minorities is also a reason why Americans are opposed to the idea of any influence of the state regarding their religious communities. They'd typically disapprove of religious education in public schools and the state meddling in church finances.
@@skayt35 fun-fact, the only Founding Father who was Catholic, Charles Carroll of Carrollton, was the driving force behind adding Freedom of Religion to the Bill of Rights. Anti-Catholicism runs very deep in American history. Before the establishment of the First Amendment protection for religious liberty, it was illegal to build Catholic churches in most states. If you want to learn more about the long history of bigotry against Catholics in the US I would recommend
"Anti-Catholicism in America: The Last Acceptable Prejudice" by Mark Massa.
Visiting relatives in the US for the first time as a 12-year old my biggest culture shock was being invited to go to church. I asked if there was a funeral, because to my mind that was the only reason anybody under 65 or so would ever go to church (it was a summer holiday, so I was pretty sure it wasn't Easter or Christmas). I grew up in the Netherlands, not in one of the small areas where church attendance is socially mandatory. My grandparents regularly attended, and people of their generation were, to my knowledge, the only people I knew who did. Yet still most of the adults I knew would still describe themselves as Christians. In fact, so did my parents, yet we didn't have a bible in the home. Christianity, in large parts of the Netherlands, has very little direct impact on the lives of most people, its presence is indirect. Many norms and values preached by the church(es) for centuries have become secularized social values held by self-described Christians, non-religious people and people following different religions from Christianity alike. As such, Christianity is influential still, despite secularization, despite official separation between church and state.
Believing in God and going to church don't really have anything to do with each other.
For my part, I can live my faith better without having to have a pastor in church give me advice every Sunday on topics that have nothing to do with him and about which he has little knowledge.
How do I get there?
In the early 1980s, our pastor needed to clearly point out in his sermon which cross he would expect from a "good" Christian in the next election. Since then I have had nothing to do with the church institution and left as soon as I could.
That is my experience and I know many people who attribute their leaving the churches to similar “expressions of opinion”.
In addition, I do not support certain attitudes of the church on, for example, abortion, euthanasia and many other things and do not want to finance more than is absolutely necessary.
When I was a child in a catholic region, we'd have fish fingers on Fridays instead of meat, but I never even realized why until much later when I had already stopped believing. We mostly went to church on Christmas eve and for weddings and funerals. I went to a catholic school because it was across the street from our house. The catholic part consisted of one morning prayer which was a hail Mary or Our father, depending on the teacher's preference. We practiced for first communion in the school gym a few weeks before the event and had our priest show up for one hour each week to tell us about Bible stories. Add going to church with the whole class on good Friday and that was the totality of the catholic experience in that school. Nobody cared if you went to church or not. To be honest, I think that comes a lot closer to how Jesus is supposed to have told his followers to worship than what I see from US habits. But then I have also heard that priests who put the bits about giving to others in their sermons were told that that sort of commie propaganda had no place in a church 🤦
There are no norms and values preached by the church that became secularized.
Church was against equal rigths men and women, against equality betwenn noblesse & clergy men versus peasants.
Church was against public schools, against everything our modern life is worth living.
There is a saying that people in Sweden dont go to church they go to the forrest to comunicate with a higher force/god.
@@cr55872 How can you be a follower of Christ if you do not know who Christ is? And how could you know who Christ apart from his body, the Church through whom the Bible was canonized and by whom God works for mutual encouragement onto right worship? I should point out Hebrews 10:24-25 as one example of many that illustrates the essential role community has in Christian practice. From the early days, Christians have been meeting together as the Church.
When reading your comment, I can't help but grieve inwardly. It's clear you had a bad experience with a pastor, perhaps a whole congregation. I would ask though, that you not pin the folly of this one onto the whole Church and that you not give up, but bear with us others in love. (Ephesians 4:2)
As for how to find a good Church, my advice would be this: seek a Church that preaches the Gospel as in the Bible, not for one that necessarily agrees with you politically, but one whose first political word is love and honest dialog. Also, no less importantly, don't just show up on Sundays for the sermon and leave as soon as service ends. Join a small group, get to know some people, and find a community that will encourage you.
I apologize if this comes across as a lecture. I truly want what is best for you and having grown up in a Church that has nourished me toward godliness my whole life, having read Paul's letters and the book of Acts wherein the Church is clearly described as a central part of the Christian life, I cannot help but reach out to you with a ridiculously long comment on TH-cam of all places. If you have read 2 Corinthians 10, it is in that spirit that I write to you, though of course, I wouldn't claim Paul's apostolic authority.
If you've read, thank you for bearing with a little foolishness. May the God of all παρακλησις, the παρακλητος, lead you into all truth and into communion with him as I too am with him.
I had religion class in school as a Catholic in Germany. First we just looked at the bible, but later on religion class was more looking at other religions and learning about them. Also we were also discussing a lot of topics like death penalty and similar topics
Being a Christian, a Lutheran, but neither American nor German, but Swedish, I think I can add even more confusion by relating what happended in Sweden (please delete if you find it irrelevant).
Sweden (which did not really exist then) was christened by Ansgar, a monk sent out from Bremen in what was eventually to become Germany, around AD 1 000, to Birka, then a settlement on an island in Mälaren. He was - of course - a Catholic, so Sweden became Catholic.
Enter, on 23 June 1523 (500 years ago!) king Gustav Wasa, the first king of what is now and has been ever since, Sweden. One of his followers was a clergyman, Olaus Petri, who set about to translate the Bible from latin to "Swedish", thus making God´s word avaliable to the people, following the example of Luther.
Olaus Petri came in handy as far as getting rid of the Papal dominance. So Gustav confiscated whatever the church posessed. He needed the money and took it.
Ever since till 2020 the Swedish Lutheran Church, is "free". There is no ministry of eccleciastics anymore.
But after 1 000 years the bonds are still there. There are thousands upon thosands of churches, many of them medieval, not being religious edifices only. but part of Swedish history.
Thus, the state pays (not nearly enough) for the upkeep of the treasures of churches around the country.
As to finances: There is no longer a "church tax". But membership fees to the Church of Sweden is collected via the state tax system. In my parish the fee is 0.87 SEK per 100 sek earned.
Apart from that, a "funeral fee" must be paid by everyone with a taxable income, be you a Christian, a Muslim, a Buddist, a Shintoist, an Ateist or whatever.
Hans Strömberg, Stockholm, Sweden
I'm neither American or German, I'm Canadian, and I just wanted to comment that most Canadians are amazed, and not in a positive way, at how much religion affects most aspects of America.
I cannot help myself but to highlight that even a Canadian is referring to the US as "America" - considering that Canada is a part of teh same (even sub) continent😄
Me too. I see it in my Facebook newsfeed a lot.
stick to Canada Eh? No one cares how secular Canada is. America was FOUNDED upon religious freedom...So why is it a shock it's a religious nation? It's founders described us as a Judeo Christian nation. This entire thread and video only provides proof how far to the left and secularized America has become in the last 50 years from where it was.
@@marcelwin6941 It's the United states of AMERICA...Not the United states...Not the US... America is a part of the Name.
@@cheswick617 I'm so glad to see you're such a proud believer in your country's own prized first amendment constitutional rights. Which, by those very rights lets me tell you to shut your ignorant mouth.
religious education in germany is about religion itself, it's nature. it's not there to convert children into christians or any other religion. you learn there about the bible and such, but also about other religions like hinduism, buddhism, judaism or islam. and it goes even further and educates about the dangers of religions. about the fanatism that can be spread by every religion.
yeah we dont teach religion, we teach about religion
Since when? When i was in school we had catholic or evangelic religon class and at least the teacher for the catholic class had to be approved by the church.
I was forced into the catholic class and we had to read the bible up and down, it wasnt education about religion in general, it was intoctrination to be a "good" catholic sheep
We learned primarily about christianity, but it was a normal, albeit enthusiastic teacher. But also remember visiting a mosque, so there's that.
But even if it was christianity-tinted, it was a place for discussions, and oh boy did we discuss. Most fun classes were listening to the teacher and a student (who was strongly atheistic) argue about religion. And the student COULD argue well, so it got pretty heated, but I love that it was a good place for discussion.
Also note it was a christian school, not a public school, so that might be part of it (they usually are a bit higher quality, even though both are free)
Actually it is not. That's what ethics classes are about.
@@frankoptis ethic classes have religion as one of many topics.
As a German pastor (with quite some international experience) I found this very interesting. My 2 cents:
The global influence of (primarily evangelical) USAmerican Christianity can hardly be overestimated, be it in terms of theology and church practice - and politics. For better or worse we have been influenced by the likes of Billy Graham, Bill Hybels or - Mike Pence. Even the "other side" like Nadia Bolz-Weber, post-Evangelicals or the "New Small Church" movement is largely dominated by USAmericans. That's just how it is.
The two things that is rather disconcerting to most of us outside the USA are: 1. How irreconcilable the two political factions are, especially when it comes to faith based moral convictions (or what people might consider so). Is it even fathomable to be "pro-life" and "pro public health system" at the same time? 2. The religious nationalism, to the point of seeing the USA as the one divinely chosen nation (chosen for whatever purpose?). Can they even think the thought that all that might be is narcissism?
The U.S. is a very proud nation, a fact that I, as a citizen who is a devout Christian, is not proud of but rather mourns, because God RESISTS the proud, but gives grace to the humble. The other thing to understand, and I can say this definitively as a citizen descended from the enslaved Africans who built the fundamental capital here: U.S. Christendom is hopelessly compromised on the institutional level, which is why it behaves in a narcissist manner, having NEVER set itself apart from that strain of thinking that the vast majority of human beings are just chattel to be used up for profit. U.S. Christendom boasts of 1620, but refuses to acknowledge 1607 and 1619. So, of course one can be pro-life but not for pro public health system: the hypocrisy is baked in. Of course one can read the U.S. into every prophecy in Scripture, never mind that the country is too young to be in there, and if in there, would be condemned clear through from the prophets to Revelation 18: the pride is baked in.
This is not to say that there are not Christians serving the Lord and one another and getting past the common quarrels to live a quiet and peaceful life here -- there are many, but we are by no means the ones that get the attention, and increasingly, we are being called out of the institution in terms of how we live and serve.
because it is chosen but not in the way they believe they were th-cam.com/video/_DrJ8_i7giU/w-d-xo.html
@@hymnodyhands When I read your comment including the reference to Rev 18, something (maybe the Holy Spirit?) made me think you might be interested in this fascinating book: Reading Revelation responsibly by Michael J. Gorman. I think you will like and be intrigued by how Gorman reads the book of Revelation in regard to USAmerican culture.
God has smiled upon US for nearly 250 years. We founded three military branches while beating back, twice the world's most formidable fighting force at the time.
In fact, one of our Founding Fathers said the following: "Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." - John Adams.
Furthermore, my Nation... the United States of America was founded by Europeans for said at a time when the majority were for of Christain. So, it should be no surprise that religion and patriotism are so intertwined on the Chridtian Left and Right.
This isn't anything new. Capitalism also plays a heavy role. As far back as at least the 1910/1920s in America, capitalism in many places was thought of as being as the biggest Christian virtue imaginable. There were people literally claiming the Jesus was the first capitalist. Being a good businessman and making lots of money was through a very impressive feat of mental gymnastics conflated with being a good Christian. Which is like _literally_ the opposite of what Jesus said. I mean if you can convince people of that, then you can really convince them of anything. If you understand this long tradition then people like the televangelists and megachurch leaders make a whole lot more sense.
I am Christian, conservative, and vehemently against the idea of a Church Tax. Firstly, note the way Paul talks about charity in 2 Corinthians 8-9, one of my favorite passages:
"For they gave according to their means, as I can testify, and beyond their means, of their own accord, begging us earnestly for the favor of taking part in the relief of the saints-and this, not as we expected, but they gave themselves first to the Lord and then by the will of God to us... Each one must give as he has decided in his heart, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver." -2 Corinthians 8:3-5 and 9:7, ESV
Secondly, God, and therefore we his ambassadors, (2 Cor 5:20) do not seek mere service-financial, ritual, or anything else. We seek the heart, to capture every mind. (2 Cor 10:5) Commanding money from the masses, even by the most democratic tyranny, the tyranny of the majority, is not right, just as God has shown it not to be right to command our resources to himself by any means besides voluntary acts of love and worship.
If mere appearances were what God loved, David's brother, whose name I don't even remember, would have been the great king of Israel. If appearances were what God praised, Christ would not have called the religious leaders of his day "whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and everything unclean". (Matt 23:27) As Christ also says, "Woe to you Pharisees! For you tithe mint and rue and every herb, and neglect justice and the love of God. These you ought to have done, without neglecting the others." (Luke 11:42)
Now, a Christian might read all this and still think that a Church Tax, whatever its impurity, is exactly the tool we need to effectively carry out the Great Commission with which we've been tasked to carry out in this less than perfect world. Idealism, empty piety, and foolishness will not work in the real world. To that I have two responses, one symbolic and the other scriptural.
This foolishness derided, this impotency trampled is the same that hung that man of sorrows, the lamb of God, on his cross. His death, his weakness as the spiritual powers must have considered it, became by resurrection the life that he now has and that we have in him. Many Martyrs throughout the Church's history testify to this same power.
For my second point, I will let Paul speak:
"Therefore, having this ministry by the mercy of God, we do not lose heart. But we have renounced disgraceful, underhanded ways. We refuse to practice cunning or to tamper with God’s word, but by the open statement of the truth we would commend ourselves to everyone’s conscience in the sight of God." -2 Corinthians 4:1-2, ESV
And also:
"Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things."
-1 Corinthians 13:7, ESV
Obviously, this is a long comment. I would love to hear your thoughts as well, especially those of you who live in a country that already has a Church Tax.
I am shocked that a church tax exists anywhere. Everybody knows that you don't bite the hand that feeds you. By taking tax money, churches are tying themselves to that source. If the government decides that the church needs to do something in order to continue receiving funds, the church has to decide whether to stay true to its values or be beholden to a government that may or may not have it's best interests at heart.
Church tax is definitely needed given the billions of dollars religious organisations (Catholic Church and Orthodox church) have. It has nothing to do with your personal beliefs just a monetary thing.
@@brianimpecoven3270 It doesn't work that way. The German "IRSs" collect church taxes and pass them on to the respective churches and charge them for these services rendered. Should the state impose something on the churches they don't like they always can terminate their agreement with the state and collect the taxes themselves.
But there are quite some funds churches receive from taxpayers' money: in some states, bishops are paid for by the state. And - contrary to what is said in the video - 95% of social institutions (kindergartens, hospitals, retirement homes etc.) are paid for by general taxes. Church taxes only pay for the small chapels in these institutions.
@@baonemogomotsi7138No non-profitable organization should be taxed.
Thank you very much for taking up that topic! Religion is always hot to handle and I guess that's why most of the vlogs of US-imigrants in germany don't talk a lot about that. But it is a big issue in our cultural differences. I am a lutheran christian from Germany and honestly, when I look at the US I somehow feel very uncomfortable with that mixture of nationalism and christianity growing in the US. Sometimes it seems like even though both sides confess to the Christ they don't share the same values. My church has services for same sex marriage, we actively do take care for the enviorment and climate change, and we give asylum to refugees. And this all is related with faith and the bible, but it seems US and German christians have different ways of reading the bible. I would love to see more videos from you about that. Especially on topics like: "Kirchenasyl" or "Trauung für gleichgeschlechtliche Paare" or "ökofaire Gemeinde" Thanks for all the work! Your videos are always amazing!
The contrast between how much help Christian church communities are offering to refugees (most of them Muslims) and the anti-refugee stance of German political parties with "Christian" in their name is so striking.
Same sex marriage? Why does the church allows it?
@@sysyphenf8ewtfr603 Higher-ups in the churches don't have as much control over the local communities as they would like.
@@faultier1158
“I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”
― Mahatma Gandhi
It depends a lot on Christian denomination and even local congregation. Which Synod of Lutheran would likely make a difference. ELCA or ASNA (have not been Lutheran for years and not sure of current recombinations) would likely agree with you and the Episcopal Church, most Methodists and (UPC). Presbyterians, American Baptist Convention, and UCC. However the more conservative wing of each flavor of Christianity would disagree…Lutheran CWS,LCMS; most Southern Baptist Convention, many non-denominational churches and Very Reformed Churches. Many Anglican and Episcopal churches that left TEC over ordination of women and LGBTI some years ago. Charismatic/Pentecostal churches can also be theologically conservative but sometimes more liberal. Orthodox churches I think vary. Every group brought their own faith and then divisions arose!
I lived in the US for a year as a teenager and was part of a pentacostal church and you might be able to understand the culture shock I got, growing up as a german 'catholic' (going to church a few times every year). The music, the prayers, the band, the... devotion of everyone. I was... shocked. Beyond shocked.
That was a long time ago and over the years I've come to the conclusion that when we talk about "religion" americans and germans mean quite different things. Or at least it has a very, very different taste to it. I always had the impression that over here in Germany it is treated more like a philosophy: Religion might be a compass in questions of morale, a metaphor to learn from, old stories giving counsel. You can discuss them with your neighbour and you can disagree or pick different aspects and you'll still drink you beer together and sleep through the church bells on sundays. Celebrate the holidays, be a part of the parade, play an instrument, go to the service on christmas, ignore the rest. ;-)
In the US I had quite a different experience. Religion seemed to be private in the sense that you should rather not discuss yours with anyone for fear of offending anyone or getting in a fight. Faith was measured in how well you believed the pastor's interpretation of bible verses. It seemed very rigid to me, the bible reduced to rules and mindsets you had to live by, leaving no room for discussion among the people themselves. To me (coming from a relaxed 'might or might not be true' kind of faith) this seemed extreme and dogmatic.
SO when americans are so shocked that we have a class in school called "religion" I can understand their horror - but they can't know that it is more often like english class would be or like philosphy maybe. We compared parts of the bible to older greek stories, we learned about buddhism and islam and judaism, we compared, we discussed - it was far from bible study. In fact, I think if the US-School system had anything like it, there'd be a lot less tension between atheists and christians (and others). To me it seemed that the trenches were quite deep between my christian friends and classmates and my atheist friends. Like they would politely talk to each other but no more than that. ((side note, when I went to elementary school our teachers DID lead us in prayer every morning and there was a cross in every classroom... bavaria... not sure if that's still a thing. My cousins in northern germany were shocked :D))
Church taxes... are (expecially as a catholic with all the "recent discoveries") VERY frustrating. But - unlike in megachurches - the money doesn't go directly to the priests and they become super rich. This money pays for KiTas, Hospitals, Hospices, care-institutions and... the pope?! I guess?! So that's nice, because then I don't have to pay my hospital bill, or KiTa or whatever... Now, don't get me wrong, there's this weird idea that if the state simply took all that public care stuff back into their hands and pays for it with our normal taxes, we wouldn't at the same time fund old and dusty, power-abusing institutions - I know, I know. And I'm all for this new idea. But seeing as we still pay reparations from 200 years ago, I have little hope that this new idea will come through.
As far as I know the Christian social Institutions Like Kitas und Hospitals are still mostly funded by state or municipal subsidies. Only the Administration is paid by the church itself. But don't quote me on that😉
Thanks for your thoughtful comments. They mirror my experiences to a large degree.
You describe the differences very well, especially religion as a school subject here in Germany. It is NOT bible study.
Regarding the church taxes. You have the choice in Germany to pay or not pay church taxes. Just go to the Rathaus (City Hall) and declare that you are not affiliated with a church and you pay no church taxes.
It's because of different approach on bible. I'm born again Catholic in Indonesia, and this is what I learned between Catholic and Evangelical:
Evangelical may follow Bible to the words literally. (The interpretation of Bible depends on the church leaders. Sometimes different from each other).
Catholic interpret Bible contextually.
This is why you feel that Evangelical more rigid than Catholic.
Yes european religious education would get huge pushback in the us. From rightwing evangelicals. European style re classes, teach about what multiple religions believe, in an unbiased way. The history and culture. Even about lack of religiosity. Nothing that cannot be proven is taught as fact.i am from the uk, it's rare to meet anyone under 40 who is a christian. My local church got converted into a cafe, because of a lack of attendees.
Same for the religion classes in Germany, mine also had a lot of moral topics, critical analysis of bible stories etc - we had a good teacher imo.
My parents are baptists, once as a kid I found a book my dad had about a fathers role in raising kids in a godly way (according to thier sect of christianity). I was very confused about why it said to pull kids out of any lesson on world religion, my mom said its to keep us from converting to another religion. Luckily they never followed through on that, but my mom was pretty pissed that I learned about the muslim population in China cuz my school didnt demonize them.
I did my oral exams for my finals in religious education. The topic being "criticism of God". Lots of Kant and Feuerbach. Got an A (14 Points) for it.
@@mattrose99 Wow, that hurts dude. It tells a lot if your parents are mad at your school for teaching you things that actually exist in this world.
@@pertoor i will give them I was like 8 or 9 when this happened, and my mom is now far more open with her beliefs around creationism and is probably the only reason I never got the 'dinosaurs were faked by satan' talk. My parents are both young earth creationists but at least my mom does her research, whether or not I believe it I can respect that
watching it again, because it really is very well made and full of valuable info. The comments too are very informative.
In Northern Germany, growing up in the 80s/90s, we had a choice between Religion and Ethics as a class, but basically the two were almost the same. In Religion class, we were actually taught about Religions, not about our belief and catechism. I had some great teachers who taught as a lot about Judaism, Buddism and the history of our church and I don't regret taking part in it, despite having been agnostic all of my life. I don't recall ever being taught actual "bible truths" and being expected to believe them.
Ethics as a class is also supposed to teach you everything about all religions. Their history, their beliefs and their traditions. But it is not supposed to take a side.
@@dnocturn84 Religious classes also didn't take any sides since we rarely even spoke about "religion".
@@dnocturn84 Religious classes don't really take a side either, unless you are taught at a religious school or by a really old-school catholic teacher. Most of those teachers spend a lot of time discussing all aspects of Christianity, including the more questionable aspects of it. Frankly, as someone who had both Religion and Philosophy at different points, there wasn't much of a difference in those classes, except that Philosophy had less history in it.
@@klamin_original Really? Is that true? Maybe things have changed today (I'm pretty sure they did), but Religion as a subject, back in my school days (1990-2000), was taught by a teacher, who also was a priest, who was approved by the church. Sure, my classmates did also learn about other religions out there, during these lessons. But their emphasis was definitely on Christian belief. I had multiple substitution hours with this teacher (propably because there was no one else available), even though I choose Ethics class and being Atheist, and all of them turned into hardcore Christian teaching lessons, including forcing us to pray. I remember leaving this classroom at some point during all of his lessons, because this wasn't ok. Later I had a girlfriend, whose aunt was a Religion teacher and priest as well. She just lectured at different schools, so I never met her in my school. And she basically did the same. She even directly stated, that her mission is, to bring the young ones to their belief. And that she would use any chance to do that, within the restrictions of our rules. She is still out there today, working at 3 (or 4) schools right now.
@@dnocturn84 Must have been a catholic religion class... - In the 1970s, before Ethics as a course alternative appeared, the protestantic religion class covered a wide range of topics of social life, history (including Christian), Christian and other religions. The teacher had to have a degree in divinity, be member of the church and had to be approved by the church, but nothing else - no priest. I remember we discussed topics like the influence of the space age on working life and society. DISCUSSED. More than in any other course.
The biggest culture shock for me with respect to religion was moving to Virginia (from various Midwestern states) where I first experienced Christian Fundamental Religiosity. My partner said: " What is the deal with all the Jesus stuff everywhere?" The most shocking was how pervasive Christianity was in the work place. Our work place was biotechnology and pharmaceutical companies. It was kinda wierd.
P.S. "One Nation Under God " was not part of the original poem. It was added during the "communist" scare during the McCarthy trial.
Free masons 🤪
@@kimkaragiannis848 I've worked with Muslims, Buddhists, others. Religion, politics, finances are not appropriate topics of conversation in the work place. Major corporations have guide lines regarding this. The companies in Virginia do too, they were just ignored them and made for VERY inappropriate and uncomfortable situations (They also ignored FDA government regulations regarding drug research and manufacture - but that's another story.) With family/ friends talk about anything. If Christians are being hassled in the work place talk to Human Resources. Giving folks a hard time about Religion, politics, sexual orientation, and finances in the work place is illegal. I am not Christian. Not everyone is. At work no one needs to know personal beliefs.
@@kimkaragiannis848 at work? Or generally?
I'm what way?
Examples?
How come the great majority always seems to feel like the underdogs?
Christianity is privileged in the US, no doubt about that. It even says so on your money, so I'm really curious in what way Christianity was suppressed...
@@kimkaragiannis848 As a Christian in Berlin Germany, it makes me want to move to Virginia. I am from California ;-)
I doubt the US founders were religious but the constitution is excellent. Addled beyond belief never knew the God insert was part of Mc Arthyism. McArthie was Catholic and reactionary they go together and Truman was a Klansman when stated that he didn't go to meeting much since he had "Catholic" friends?!
His wife hated Jews and he would never have dropped A Bombs on Germany since they had his thinking! Jap's well? As a boy I thought him a nice man.
Only the USA would have a Prezzie singing Happy Birthday to the wife of King. Who's class had King killed by the FBI with Jifka and Bobby! Not forgetting John Lennon!
The make Al Capone kinda sweet! At least Capone would remember the names of who he killed!
Concerning the "religion" classes in school, we also have those in Sweden. It's not christianity-classes though, we learn about all the major religions and beliefs. School is supposed to supply us with the information to understand the world, and since religion is part of that I think it's meaningful.
As a personal aside; growing up atheist and learning about Christianity alongside other religions in school, it only cemented my atheistic worldview.
From my personal experience, this is somewhat different in Germany. In elementary school, I was actually taught bible stories. This might not be common in more progressive parts of the country. However, at least where I live, Religion teachers have to belong to the protestant church (or I guess the catholic church for catholic schools?).
@@FridgeEating Now that you mention it, we did learn some bible stories in earlier grades when we didn't yet have actual "classes". I have a hard time remembering that time now, but it definitely wasn't framed as "fact", more like short stories we could discuss afterwards. I only remember this because I have a drawing that 8 year old me made of Abraham pointing a dagger at Isaac in front of an altar 😆. The bible probably shouldn't be read to kids.
In Germany it depends on where you live. In Hamburg at school I learned about all the major world religions and how they look at different issues.
@@FridgeEating I went to school in NRW starting nearly forty years ago and I read Bible stories to learn how to read them and understand the meaning behind them.
I also learned the basics of the „world religions“.
It helped me learn, that I appreciate the basic understanding all of these religions had and that I don’t want to follow any religion. My „religion“ is now the Grundgesetz.
@@98Zai Isaacs sacrifice is one of the better stories. The bible also contains descriptions of torture.
The US Constitution does not recognize the separation of church and state. It basically states that there should be no state-sponsored church.
There are so many TH-cam Channels with culture shocks, but it is the first time I see a video with the religious theme.
Very interesting !!!
Thank You !
Viele liebe Grüße
Look up "The Norden" about religion here on TH-cam.
It is shocking that people who have spent so many years in public school are shocked that other people act in a different way than themselves. Or maybe it's not so shocking when you know what the goal is with public schools.
Thanks so much for watching! 😊
Yes, it is a "dangerous" topic especially for Americans ... so kudos to Ashton to take this up.
What an amazingly honest and fascinating video. Can I comment? Apologies, I'm neither American nor German. I'm English. But I can still give a European v. USA perspective.
The internet is awash recently with irritating short videos in which somebody stops somebody else in the street and asks them random general knowledge questions - mostly in the USA. I saw one recently filmed in Manchester, UK in which young people were asked to identify the flags of various countries. They were actually really successful. The comments were FULL of Americans saying Americans would never be able to identify those flags and were all berating the education system in American schools. But the thing is we don't really systematically learn flags in British schools either. We learn them because of international sports like football, rugby, cricket, the Commonwealth Games, the Olympic Games etc and from the news and from travel. This, perhaps, is what is lacking in the USA. Your most popular sports don't involve playing international matches, your news doesn't tell much about other countries and people don't travel much. I don't know if it's true but I read once that American TV coverage of the Olympic Games tends to concentrate very much on just what American competitors do. We can't really do that or there wouldn't be much to watch!
So true. To the media in the US, the rest of the world doesn't exist -- until there's a sizable body count involved. And this would be funny if it weren't so true.
From experience I can tell you you are spot on.
@Barry You are very correct! The US are far more inward oriented than other parts of the world. But there is also a big difference in social layers, the higher the education degree, the more they know about the 'outside' world.
While in Europe the less educated know all the best beaches around the world, while educated know about musea and culture sites. So even with less money, people will travel and see other countries and meet other people.
Even those in Europe who stay at home, and only watch football, know where the best clubs in the world are and which players are excellent. In the US they are only interested in their own sports, that are hardly played anywhere else.
Even the world cup is an internal US affair in most branches of their sports.
That's a really excellent point.
Fair point. Isolationism is so deeply ingrained in the American psyche that they don't even realise they're doing it.
Not shying away from a divisive topic. I respect it. Your channel has been putting out quality content for many months now and the number of subscribers does not reflect the level of production value on display here. Keep goin’!
To be honest it’s not a divisive topic in Europe.
It’s always weird that people from the country of free speech without limits tend to avoid topics like politics or religion yet we Germans like to discuss all of it without any hesitation
Yes, but there is some objective point in the other videos. Just to claim without any reflection that Republicans supporting the death penalty can be „devout Christians“ is much below the usual good level of this Channel.
@@klamin_original Divisive does not mean that people won't like to talk about it. Quite the opposite. The importance or unimportance of religion or church, faith and God and how you can have one without the other can still be the source of great conversations if done in a respectful way. However, the notion that "we Germans like to discuss politics or religion without any hesitation" is questionable and does not reflect my experience.
@@RobTheWatcher what topic hasn't been divisive on this channel? I think this is one of the least divisive topics handled?
@@oneworld1160 It's true, though. They don't seem to see the obvious contradiction. In fact, my impression is that when Americans let their religion influence their politics, they usually mean what's in the old testament, not the newer parts that are actually specifically Christian. There are exceptions, of course. And many seem to know the bible only from what someone told them, or from reading short passages and not really trying to figure out the context.
This is the first of your videos I have listened to, TH-cam suggestion I suppose, great informative video. You are a great researcher/teacher. Thanks for doing this. I just saw your brief bio, teacher and PhD architectural historian, so you are a professor, now it all makes sense. I love TH-cam, I can get a college lecture in my living room.
thanks for watching! Glad you enjoyed.
The church tax in Germany and the tax exemption in the US accomplish the same thing: Providing funding to the church. Germany just does it directly, whereas the US does it while claiming it doesn't. Many in the US also "claim" to be religious or Christian, while their actions and voting patterns certainly indicate otherwise.
What is the voting pattern of the millions of Germans who vote for neo-nazi members of the afD? There are about 100 of them in the German parliament. Given the not glorious past of Germany...
Interesting. In Australia there is no tax exemption for donations to churches, except in limited cases where they qualify as charities or as "war memorials". Tithes, offerings and other donations are all usually after-tax expenditures in Australia, and of course we have a fairly comprehensive social safety net (though less now than when I was younger). So taxes cover some of the things (poor relief) that the Old Testament tithe was meant to handle. BTW, not all Christians consider tithing to be a Christian doctrine.
Religion here is considered a private personal affair, not something for public display. Public religiosity is thought "peculiar". Nevertheless some recent Prime Ministers have been practising Christians on both sides of politics -- e.g. Tony Abbott and Kevin Rudd. But some have identified as non-believers.
Government-run schools do tend to have one "scripture" lesson a week, I think, where representatives of local churches teach students about their particular denomination. Parents can opt their children out.
Overall, religion is seen as a minority, private interest. The overall society and culture is secular. Churches often run charities, and may be respected if they do that well (e.g. the "Sallies" -- Salvation Army).
Many? Try nearly everyone claiming to be christian.
@@scottlemiere2024how so??
@@okami425 I would like to know as well! We have christians on both sides of the aisle even christian socialists
As a Brit, I don't actually know anyone who has told me they go to Church. Even my parents, who believe, go may be a few times a year. Personally I the US appears no different to some fundamentalist countries in the middle east, just with a different religion. As for the bible, the English bible is often derived from the King James bible and it was translated in order to suit his politics of the time. I find it highly ironic, that the UK, thanks to Henry VIII has an 'official' state religion and the US doesn't, but the US is far far more religious than the UK and mentions god all the time where as a British Politician wouldn't if they wanted to be re-elected.
Agreed, and there's something else which marks out a difference in mindset. At 2:14, Type Ashton casually uses the phrase "..during our daily pledge of allegience". I guess for an American there doesn't seem to be anything odd there, but as a non-American that really jars. It sounds like a cult red flag, or maybe something a totalitarian state would do. Replace the word "flag" with "dear leader" and you'll get what I mean.
@@chriscope2724defenitely sounds cultish. The god bless americas, the so hear me gods, the god bless yous commonly heard in movies are also baffling to me.
Care to actually name those "fundamentalist countries"? And which part of them were you referring to? Their governments/regimes? The majority of their population? The loudest minority? Those you hear about in the media of your country the most? The ones you travelled to?
@ferocious_r my wife who grew up in communist Romania, as well as several other friends of mine from ex-communist countries have shared memories of school-room indoctrination where the class swears loyalty to the dear leader at the beginning of every school day. I understand this is still common practice in North Korea today. The US is the only western country I know of where school days involve swearing loyalty to an authority figure.
@@chriscope2724 Eh, they DO swear to flag and state, not some individual or office.
With "God" smuggled in there by christian fundies nearly fifty years later to set them off against "godless" commies.
And originally associated with a raised right arm gesture, only dicontinued when the german Nazis stole that stance for their own nationalist indoctrination, in ´42.
But even if its not to a specific party or person, its still a creepy cultish thing to make kids do every day for all of their school career.
Funnily enough inventend and publicized by an early american socialist, no less.
One of the people who that very republic with "liberty and justice for all" later should stomp out, incarcerate and unjustly remove from their jobs and take their freedom for their political thought during McCarthyism.
I absolutely LOVED Religion classes back in school! We had it for 2 years in middle school (realschule), with the first year being mandatory and the second year was voluntary. We learned a lot about Bhuddism, the differences between Sunni and Shia schools of Islam, we even looked at some indigenous religions, build our own little totem, talked about similarities between all religion (especially christianity and islam) and just really cool shit all around :D Also i think it its important to mention that paying church tax is "optional", you do by default but you can opt out of it (for a fee of i think like 30 euros)
Hey Nick, its also important to mention that this fee is imposed by the church for the paperwork and not the financial authorities.
There is no way we would see genuine "religion", which sound to me like a college class we offer called Comparative Religion, class in the US. The politics of that would be crazy.
I think the politics of having an optional class in Christianity would be too hot to handle. There would be the obvious outrage about using public space and time for the class. But there would be other significant outrage about whether the instructor had a Catholic bent or a Protestant bent. The numerous denominations would fight over this and the public school would drop the whole thing.
@@eddarby469 My kids had something that was called Ethiks. You could opt for Catholic, Evangelic or Ethics. The Muslim faith has only been taught in Mosques at that time and place. Ethics was taught by teachers of the Humanist Society. They taught a bit of the religions, but did not limit it to that. They would also have themes like disabilities, how conflicts are made and dissolved, values etc. I think this could be a class that could be taught in the US as well.
The fee is different from Bundesland to Bundesland. Here in BaWü i think its 29€
@@dagmarbubolz7999 I was only the last year in Ethik, but i really enjoyed it. We discussed for example the ethical aspects of fighter drones or self driving cars.
Hi Aston. I‘m an American and have lived in Germany for the past 41 years. The last 31 of those were working in Germany, paying taxes here, and becoming vested in the German retirement system. Shortly after I started working here I noticed the church tax on my pay slip. Yipes! I found out you can opt out of paying this tax, and I did that years ago. That has consequences, but none that‘ll impact me (I don’t think.). Where I‘m eventually buried, that some church affiliated care facilities might not be available to me, etc. But, as someone who is completely not religious, I can put my money to many other well deserving charitable causes.
Well researched and presented. Thanks for the good work. This is quite informative.
I'm from Scotland and lived most of my adult life in Germany plus 10 years in the USA. Your videos are so well-researched and presented that I find myself learning a lot every time about both countries. Thank you for this sensitively presented video on a potentially controversial subject. Your presentation and production values are extremely professional.
This is highly interesting. Coming from Finland, I have visited both the US and Germany ( actually lived there..) .. I would say in both countries, a lot depends on the region, and local community.. I have known very secular Americans, Christian Americans, the same for Germans on both ends of the spectrum.. I would say in Europe there is more personal choice and involvement, versus following traditional family values in America ..
Very intelligent and balanced comment. It's a comment that is too mature for most of the audience of these kinds of childish comparison videos. I'm French BTW.
Narniant well said.
@Eric Perez And have for a long time. A kind of nihilism.
@Eric Perez The Europeans have increasingly rejected the idea that God exists and that morals come from Him and thus from a true absolute moral compass. Instead they have been increasingly making up their own. And as to whether I know the meaning of the word, here it is from Oxford Language Dictionary. Read and decide for yourself:
ni·hil·ism
/ˈnīəˌlizəm,ˈnēəˌlizəm
noun
the rejection of all religious and moral principles, in the belief that life is meaningless.
Suomi perkele. Joo samaa mieltä sun kanssa.
I am a republican and a devout Catholic and I completely oppose the church tax There is an element of mistrust of the government, but more importantly, I think that one of the primary virtues of giving to your church is the personal choice to sacrifice into contribute financially to a good cause I think being text in that way, detects from the personal discipline and and overall expression of love for God and your fellow man as Christians were not actually bound to ties, but we should give, and it should be freely down of our own choice.
I lived in the Bible Belt of the USA south and the restrictions are severe.
No school prom, only school banquets.
No public dancing (in many rural counties) It promotes inappropriate behavior.
No selling alcohol on Sundays.
Nudity is censored and shunned.
In southern Germany where I lived:
The churches owned and ran the breweries.
Nudity was very common and not considered a sexual display, in many public places. Very natural.
These two places who claimed to be based on Christian beliefs couldn't have been more different.
The Coptics of Egypt are Christian, but there is no Hell in their teachings.
Most of what I've learned is that cultures are different in the same countries and even more diverse in different countries.
So, be respectful, and when in Rome, do as the Romans do.
God bless you!
None of that is even Christian. It's mormonism but you call it Christianity falsely.
@@476f7474I’m confused, don’t Mormons believe in Jesus Christ? Wouldn’t that make them Christian? If they aren’t Christian, what are they? And what is a real Christian?
Given the whole "Christ is wine" thing and the fact that you can just buy your alcohol on Saturday to drink on Sunday, hardline rules about not selling alcohol on Sundays makes me roll my eyes.
And yeah. That Christian puritanism regarding nudity is pretty rough. There's nothing quite like growing up and seeing women as objects, sex as a commodity, and your body as something to be ashamed of to the point of mental illness.
@@davespanksalot8413 If you start praying to Buddha, it doesn't make you a Buddhist. If you start praying to Jesus Christ, it doesn't make you Christian. It only makes you very uneducated about the respective faith. Christians pray to God. Jesus is the ultimate example to follow. You can mention the son as part of the holy trinity of the father, the son and the holy spirit but that's also only what catholics do. Lutherans pray only to God. Mormons pray to Jesus Christ and I assume that in the context of the book of Mormon that somehow makes sense. Otherwise, christians don't pray to Jesus but they pray to God through Christ. Jesus was a human that God chose as his vessel. This made him Christ which is God within man. That again makes him a leader of faith, a messia even - but not God in any sense that would warrant praying to Jesus Christ. Christianity is much more about "what would Jesus do" than about praying to Jesus. You are a Christian if Christ is your ultimate guide and God is your ultimate purpose. If you pray to Jesus, you're in a cult that's drawing thematically from Christianity to fly under the radar.
@@476f7474 thanks for the detailed explanation. It’s always worthwhile finding out other people’s beliefs. For myself, I think I view it from a more secular historical perspective, insofar as modern Christianity originated from a breakaway apocalyptic messianic Jewish sect. I find your perspective on what today constitutes a genuine Christian believer informative.
Growing up without religion, the first time i met an actual believing and practicing Christian was at the age of 25. I doubt that would be possible in the US. 😄
Having been to the bible belt (southern regions of US), it is probably not possible to live a single day without seeing or meeting a practicing christian in that region.
Same. When I started university at 20, I made friends with someone who identified strongly as a Christian and I was REALLY confused there were grown adults who actually believe in those “fairytale stories” I was told as a kid.
Eastern Germany?
@@rickcorleone989 Südhessen.
I am mostly agnostic. The reason why I don't say that I'm an atheist is because as a kid I kept talking to what I learned to call God. I usually don't have that kind of one-sided communication anymore (never got a response, but also never expected one), unless I find myself in traumatic or devastating circumstances which is rare. I don't know if I caught this habit in Kindergarden or early school of if this is something built-in, but since it also does not really interfere with my rational thinking processes, I just kept that as an open question and a connection to people who are dedicated believers.
Since this is a more agnistic thread, do you guys have similar reminiscence of religion and how do you understand them? Is this something you reject as indoctrination and how does it relate to your rationalism?
You pulled this quite challenging topic off with your non-condescending approach and friendly tone. Learning a lot of things from you. Keep up!
The good thing in Germany is that you CAN practice any religion you want, but there is no propaganda war to get you into Christianity.
I am actually quite impressed how civil the comments are, given this controversial and for some for sure also emotional topic. Cudos to you for sharing and to all who comment and share in a respectful way.
♥️♥️♥️♥️♥️♥️
It's true, there does seem to be a terrific shortage of zealots.
When my family moved to the States when I was 9, the first thing my 50+ neighbor asked if was if I had been saved. I had no idea what she was talking about. I'm glad that I came back to Germany where religion is your own business.
Will not in the future with young Talibans arrived in the last 15 years😂
@@M.Đ-z4u he is talking about the real situation in Germany not about right wing fairy tales.
@@bildfluss well enjoy left wing policies then
@@bobbytookalook LOL😁🤣!
Go away right wing.
Weil ihr Rechten es ja auch so schwer habt. Über Twitter, Telegram oder hier dürft ihr eure Fake News über Corona und die Ukraine verbreiten, und heult dann rum, wenn jemand euren Haßreden widersprechen will und schreit rum eure Freiheit würde eingeschränkt.
The main difference between Germany and the US is that we see religion more from an ethics perspective and that’s also what gets taught at school. We’re also often still members of the two largest churches (Protestant and Catholic) even thought we don’t believe in god simply because they often run Kindergardens and schools or nursery homes (without any religious indoctrination, they just run it) and the church tax is more like a donation to society for many members.
@Phillip Banes It's seen as one. It works as one. And you can always choose to unregister from your church, so you only pay it when you're a member. And since I don't even believe in God but am still a member of the protestant church (I'm from the countryside, in villages you simply get baptized and have your confirmation with 14, it's tradition) I see it as a donation. I get an annual report from the church how church tax is used within the protestant church and I'm ok with that.
So I see it as a donation.
Besides that I always get some money back through my tax return, there are a lot of things you can deduct from your income tax through your voluntary tax declaration.
@@klamin_original I had the same view for years until I left. I was never really religious but was baptized because its more a societal thing not a religious thing in the countryside. I stayed because I wanted to support the charity work they do. As you said: Donation. But the more I learned about the role of organized religion in the struggle of queer people I dropped out.
@@nashatalniemandskind3430 That's not really the case with the German protestant church (EKD) though.
A quote from their website:
"The Evangelical Church in Germany (EKD) has reaffirmed its liberal stance on dealing with homosexuality. According to the EKD Instagram account, she rejects any form of discrimination based on sexual orientation or identity for theological and ethical reasons: "This applies regardless of all court decisions." to shape their partnership based on the biblical commandment to love”."
Another article from 2022 says, quote:
"The Central German state bishop Friedrich Kramer has apologized on behalf of his church to all people who have experienced injustice in the past because of their sexual orientation or gender identity. The Evangelical Church in Central Germany (EKM) announced on Monday in Erfurt that he apologized "for all the suffering that the church has caused and tolerated to this day".
So what you said basically just applies to the catholic church these days but even the German catholic church openly and publicly talks about splitting from the Vatican because they think a lot of these old church laws are outdated and are discriminating people.
@@klamin_original What they state on their website is not worth a penny as long as they dont take any actions. There is a reason especially the catholic church is struggling so much with loosing members. From their discriminatory employment rules to cover up for pedophiles and denying queer people basic respect. That this discussion is taking so long and that they consider these topics even worth being discussed is enough for me to not support them.
@@nashatalniemandskind3430 Protestant church, PROTESTANT. They ARE doing everything they say, there is no exclusion of non heterosexual people
I don't know in which reality you live in or have lived in but I live in Germany and the protestant church is a completely liberal church that has nothing to do with the Catholic church.
This is a very good description of a complicated topic. It has been amusing to me in Germany that the Germans have so many religious holidays, churches and Christmas events and so little God.
What I find most disturbing is the huge role religion plays in US politics, it is crazy.
I find your lack of faith disturbing
@@IMGsmereka So you don't believe in religious freedom or the separation between church and state?
Do you feel that way about the role of Judaism or Freemason beliefs or Satanists in US politics? Or are your concerns only for Christianity?
@@IMGsmereka I find you faith disgusting so what now
thats so disturbing if you whatch US olitics. Actually as a european it would seem ridicoulous, if it would´nt be so frightening. Just like seeing the speech of a religious leader in Iran or Afghanistan.
As someone from northern Germany, I gotta agree with a lot of other people in that your statements about religion in Germany feel overstated to me in several aspects. It might be the difference between north (or east) and the southern parts of Germany, but I don't know anyone who is openly Christian here nor cares about it. I've never come across church owned land here aside from the churches itself and even when it comes to the churches, anyone I know just regards them the same way they would historical buildings. That is, if they're even historical buildings and not just a tiny modern house with a cross in a cute glass window. Actually, I was shocked when I saw a Catholic priest in a collar the other day on a full train in my state's capital, it was the first time I saw one irl here actually. Public displays of Christianity are just not really a thing where I live and even someone wearing a necklace with a little cross on it is unusual to me and sticks out.
The fact that you mentioned religion class in public school along with the US ban for teachers leading prayers in public schools also rubbed me the wrong way as you did then completely skip over what these classes actually entail. The way you mentioned them together did create a narrative of religion class being akin to worship or prayer, especially Christian ones, when it isn't comparable to that at all. At least from my experience/the experience of classmates of mine (as I personally decided to choose philosophy class), was that it was teaching about different kinds of religions, their belief systems and some basic principles like ethics. It is NOT worship or prayer or even solely Christian focused. The way you presented that, or rather the lack thereof, while mentioning it in the same breath of separation of church and state/leading prayer by teachers felt like a misrepresentation to me. It was also not so much an "opt out" thing here as you had to choose either a religion or philosophy course similar to how I had to choose between French or Latin as a second foreign language. You were NOT forced into a religion class that you then had to manually opt out of here, it was simply another freely choose-able class in an educational setting. But hey, maybe in southern Germany that could be wildly different, but in that case I would've loved either more research to give a better general perspective or to just make it about southern Germany in particular as seems to be your main talking point/perspective for this video when talking about Germany.
I'm from north gernany. So far north that Hamburg belongs to the south for me^^
I have the same experiences as you.
I know one Person in my age group that is relegios. My Patents and even my grand Patents never gone to Church.
From Stuttgart hieeer y0.
With the exemption of foreigners (Who are predominantly Muslim, only a few foreigners I met who were Christian[mostly the ones whose parents came from Greek or Italy]), I too know of nobody who is actually religious beyond superficial reasoning, with the exception of ONE guy who just so happened to believe in the magical healing properties of certain crystals and stones and decorated his entire room with them for weird reasonings(basically just a nut case).
@@dulgon8135
I think if you go back and listen again you WILL find that Ashton did indeed say that the religious courses in German schools was about different religions. Also, the use of the phrase "opt out" signifies that there were other choices available. I am not sure why you seem so offended by what was clearly stated as one persons observations. It makes you come across as one of those "snobby Germans" we hear about so often; and that ruins the reputation of those who are truly nice.
@@judiclark1012
"(...)Ashton did indeed say that the religious courses in German schools was about different religions"
Yes, and my comment does not contradict that as that wasn't my critique. I wrote several times that it was the comparative nature of the presentation that presents an image by association that is not accurate to the reality depending on where in Germany you live.
"I am not sure why you seem so offended by what was clearly stated as one persons observations."
So is mine.
In fact, I stated that many times during my comment both by mentioning locations and several phases that make it clear that I'm speaking from my own personal observation. Difference is that I'm not trying to present my personal regional anecdotes as Germany in general.
"It makes you come across as one of those "snobby Germans" we hear about so often; and that ruins the reputation of those who are truly nice."
So you misread my comment by making up a straw man only to insult me and call me snobby? Okay. I never insulted anyone, so idk why you felt the need to, but go off I guess.
@SunnyAmaterasu This American woman ( I am also a Yank ) is relying on polls and charts to support her point of view .
The real accurate view is much more nuanced . Ja -- having religion taught in school does not mean teaching the history and beliefs of only ONE religion -- ( which is preaching ) . Unfortunately she is oversimplifing -- ( typical Yank ).
Hi Ashton, interesting video about a potentially controversial topic.
"God as described in the bible."
See, that's one of the main problems here. I'm an atheist and my girlfriend is a university-studied protestant theologian, which works great because we learn from each other and have tolerance for each other. When she has to deal with American people from the same "business", she has culture shocks too, mainly regarding to how shallow and ideological their education in their seminars often is and how literally many of them take the words of their ENGLISH bible. She has more than once complained about how little they scratch the surface of the history and the genesis of those texts, which have derived from at least half a dozen or so of old languages with differing cultural norms, with different geographical background, even with different fauna and flora, which play a significant role in some of the stories, just to mention the apple which never was one.
Even I, who doesn't really care for such things but have a certain interest in history have encountered people who I had to set right about certain details in what they themselves would tell me was the most important book in their life.
Regarding the religion classes in school, they are very, very different from what people elsewhere think they are. As some have already pointed out, this has not even remotely to do with bible studies in American church groups. Of course, there are variations in the 16 states who have the authority on education. They range from pure ethics classes to religion classes with the main stress on a certain faith. But even in Catholic Bavaria, the consensus is more that this has to be lessons about not only one religion but also about the main world religions and also that this has to be lessons about ethics in general. The neutrality of the state must be upheld even in these classes, despite of some efforts by politicians like especially in Bavaria.
If you want to dive deeper into the understanding of how the churches are different especially in Germany, one interesting aspect is the concept of Rhine capitalism, which is partly based on catholic social teachings which have fundamentally changed in the 19th century during the industrialisation of the Rhine/Ruhr area. There is a long history of that which seemingly never made it across the pond. And even today, compare the attitude of the majority of the Catholic bishops in Germany to the extremely conservative ways of the American bishop conference. Look at the "Synodaler Weg" and how progressive that is in comparison to Roman or American Catholicism, despite the fact that there were and are drawbacks like only recently in their last convention.
Regarding your question, what bothers me most about American religiousness are two things. The influence that often ideologically religious stand points have on politics and even on people who don't share this ideology. Keywords abortion, women's rights, or LGBTQ rights. Also, the end-of-days beliefs that make people believe that it doesn't matter whether we preserve our planet because all that matters for them is their rapture.
And what disgusts me every time are missionaries, not only Americans but predominantly Americans, who come here to preach their backward-oriented ideology and who always find those weak-minded victims they are looking for. Religion is a private matter in Europe, and it should stay that way. The often hypocritical in-your-face ways of religious expression in America are not very well received in these parts. Just let me recall one of the most egregious examples for that. Remember that image of the former POTUS surrounded by "religious leaders" touching him and "praying". Nobody can tell me that a single one of those people cared even a tiny little bit for their faith or any ethical values. That was probably the most disgusting political photo of the last decade...
Take care!
excellent comment, 100% agree.
Btw, from a roman cathlic....
Well said
Completely agreed.
I also must say I didn't like the video.
Because while it was neutral in terms of statistics and all... there was this overwhelming impression that she didn't talk to a lot of Germans about that topic herself before making the video. And still she stated mostly everything as facts.
And that especially comes out when she talks about religion as a part of curriculum as if it were this 'pushing beliefs onto the students'-kind of thing instead of clearifing after that it is not about one religion but giving understanding and knowledge about the many different religions that exist and how things can be seen/interpreted and discussions about the morals we in our daily lives can understand and follow even if we are not religious.
And she really horribly glossed over about what church taxes is used for. It was like: look how much money they make from the poor people... sure they keep money (about a third) to pay for their workers and stuff but basically no one becomes rich through that and the rest (the majority) is used for education, health ect.
But I think that steams from knowing of people like Kenneth Copeland, T.D. Jakes, Joyce Meyer and Co? Pastors who have millions on ther bank account/in private holdings.
I could continue endlessly.
Probably better if I don't watch anymore from this channel. (I did try one video before but it was similar in that it appeared like American mindset applicated to German statistics without the impression of reflection 'why')
Statistics are important of course... but it's equally if not more important that statistics don't represent everything and can only give an estimate about something and to truly understand something you have to do more than a superficial research (meaning there are facts but no effort made to research how these facts came to be).
Sorry about ranting... I had to get that out of my system... if a student delivered something like this I'd give it a 4- probably... not because I don't like what was said (which as I said, I don't) but because analysis or argumentation is not done at all nevermind applicated in any way...
Btw. If I just look at the US judge system and the supreme court and how devout some of them are and how they conduct themselves. NO ONE CAN TELL ME that their religion doesn't have a HEAVY influence on the laws in the US. They might officially have it serperated but... that's on paper.
While in Germany even CDU wouldn't really try to influence the laws in regards to religion.
Very well said!
@@natsukiilluna6324 I agree, the video could have been a bit clearer about the religion classes and about the church tax, as a number of commenters show who clearly misunderstood both concepts. But I wouldn't be so harsh in my judgement. I think it was a good start that asks for a second part with deeper information. Maybe a little interview with somebody who teaches religion and ethics in school, or somebody from university. That should be very interesting. ;-)
Ok you miss a huge important distinction. Religion in class teaches you about all world religions, their origins and stories. It's not some prayer thing which you make it sound like.
It was for my wife who grew up in rural Bavaria in primary school. The local priest was their teacher and they had to attend church.
I myself had "Reli" for eight years in school. In elementary school it was a voluntarily additional course and later in Gymnasium you had to choose between religion and ethics. I chose religion because I had it the last 4 years anyway and the lessons were always relaxed. So it was the following 4 years. We learned about Judaism, Islam, little bit Buddism, we "celebrated" shabbat with bread and grape juice, visited a mosque and a synagogue in Berlin and watched many many films and documentaries xD We also talked about sects, I even gave a presentation about Scientology, where we discussed the differences between american and german law for religion.
Religion classes in Germany, at least in East Germany, are exactly like it sounds... school lessons about religions in Germany and the world and their influences and histories. It's not doctrination. The same goes for german politics classes as well btw
Political Parties really!
It was part of World History in a High school I taught in in New Mexico (SW US), doubt this would be done in the Bible belt. But it was taught similarly, I'd say with a lot of films and so on. We didnt' have any kinds of hands on experiences or field trips (field trips in the US are now rare--due to legalistic/logistics concerns, ime).
Same in Ireland. Religion classes educate about all religions - the different beliefs traditions and histories.
@@sheireland3737 Did anyone tell you they were all lying their heads off for money and political control. No Priest ever died in the great Irish Potato famine! No one went to heaven either!
@@mikefay5698 You obviously have issues with the Church. Your comment is totally off topic. This is a discussion about how religion is currently taught in schools and how religious people are generally. The church is only as relevant to your life as you allow it to be. Personally I have no idea what you are talking about because I don’t listen to or read such things - my energy and brain space is applied elsewhere. I couldn’t care less.
I'm an American who was raised non-religious by non-religious parents, and I have since junior high school self-identified as atheist. As such, just going through the nominally-secular public schools was a constant uphill battle. Every religious toad in school would seemingly take it as a personal affront that I didn't share their personal mythology, and subjected me to ongoing harassment and bullying. Now these same bullies and pontificating jerks are in elected office, because the other sanctimonious jerks voted them in. Despite the first amendment guarantees of separation of church and state, local and state officials are constantly forcing religion on the entire public using taxpayer money. Between the holiday nativity displays, decalogue monuments at courthouses, requiring the display of "in god we trust" in schools, license plates, currency, to name just a few, it frankly feels like a siege.
I would like to have seen more about how German society at large engages with religion - Does it affect political candidacies? What about water cooler chit-chat? Are there Giant megachurches there? Is the prosperity gospel in Germany? How are self-identified christian Germans lives affected by their belief? How many christian Germans believe and practice their religion in a way Americans would recognize?
1. We have politicians who are Christians, but also Muslims or Jews. We even have a party that has Christian in it‘s name, but it’s members aren’t all Christians.
2. Faith normally is something private, nothing we discuss with colleagues.
3. Less than 50% of the population are Christians, about half of them Protestants, the other roughly half are Catholics. Add to these some orthodox, old catholic and evangelical (1-3% of the population) Christians.
4. Of those Catholics and Protestants about 8% attend a Sunday service.
5. No megachurches, no prosperity gospel, which derives from the pilgrim fathers.
People who consider themselves Christians live like everyone else. Some do voluntary work in their parishes or lay organizations. But Germans overall are quite prone to voluntary work, like firefighters (80% of our firefighters are volunteers), rescue, caring for others, hospice groups etc.
I can attempt to answer a few of those.
- yes but the more in the south and the more rural the area the more likely you are to find religious parties in Power (CDU = Christian Democratic union Merkels party; CSU Christan social union) They do have influence on a larger scale. Although they don't really care what type of Christian (catholic, protestant, orthodox, ...) as long as you are one (That's also how most welfare organisations put their faith based criteria btw.).
-No giant mega churches, people go to their areas historic church, if you live in a small village then church is going to be very important for the community and even if you're a different religion you'll attend the parties and get togethers, kids events and so on.
-No one just casually discusses religious belief they might ask if you mention you attended idk a Confirmation if you're Protestant but after a yes or no that convo is over. You might get more questions if you're Muslim, Jew, Hindu, etc. because it is much more unusual and people ask what holidays you celebrate (if you tell them you're an Atheist they might also ask you that). But you'd only get into the thick of it with very close friends.
-No clue about prosperity gospel but we don't have all of those TV preachers and Ive personally never encountered that so I'd tend towards no if it does exist then very few people believe it (we do have Mormons though so anything is possible)
- How much it affects your life is kinda different for each person most younger people just do holidays and school services plus religious studies, see the crosses in official buildings and they might get a few advantages when it comes to flats, scholarships etc. bc churches offer a lot of support. Some also volunteer as camp counslers, youth group leaders etc.. Older people often attend church Sundays, pray before meals and also volunteer in some way and are generally a lot more involved in the planning. But it doesn't really influence your decicions daily (if you're a part of the mainstream denominations we also have a ton of cults and sects). Church in general is more a Club you go to to meet people or have fun no one requires you believe the stuff or learn verses by heart. I attended an all girls private catholic school (as a baptized lutheran and Atheist) and our religion class was pretty good at staying somewhat objective and not making it a bible study.
- The vast majority of German Christians would probably not be considered Christian by Americans (many don't consider themselves believers and just go for traditions sake or like me are a non believer that helps with kids activities and takes advantage of the welfare perks bc my neighboorhood church is pretty cool), Religion is usually a rather private and personal thing that you dont talk about that deeply. And the bible is not taken literally in any way it's seen more as a story book with some moral lessons along the way.
Add on: Sorry this got a bit long and I edited it a few times to add after thoughts
Religious affiliation is irrelevant for political office and how people view you. Sexuality has largely become irrelevant too. Race is only still relevant for a minority. Many politicians are atheists, many are divorced, some openly gay.
Depends on whether or not Bavaria can be considered a part of Germany 😂
@@henricomonterosa4534 Good question. 😉
I am an American and an atheist. I live juuuust above the colored in section that you represented as the "Bible Belt," in a majority Christian part of the country. I feel like there are at least as many local churches as there are McDonald's franchises. Many of the local hospitals are religiously affiliated, as well. For example, there are Jewish and Catholic hospitals. I don't really understand the ins and outs of how that works, to be honest. I know I was born in a Catholic hospital and that, because they thought I would die, they christened me. I am grateful that I didn't die and I don't really care that they sprinkled some water on my head. There are also religiously affiliated schools, including colleges and universities, in the area. Most hospitals, hospices, and colleges and universities have a chaplain and a chapel.
When I was a child, my main exposure to religion came from either hospitals or from being invited as a guest to my friends' homes or places of worship or hearing from friends about their experiences. For example, one friend had a Catholic mother and a Jewish father. Her parents let her decide, at around 12 or 13, which religious community to be a part of. Another friend was Hindu, and I accidentally touched a shrine that she had in her room. I had another friend whose mother was originally Catholic, but who had converted to Islam when she married my friend's dad. My friend wasn't allowed to come to a lot of school dances and parties and she said there was a bit of tension with her grandparents, who felt like their daughter had betrayed them when she left the Catholic church. I had friends who went to a Catholic school even though they lived right next door to me. I had a friend who practiced Wicca, which... meant, to me, that she had some interesting looking crystals and stuff hanging around her house and was very into nature conservation. I also had friends who were Evangelical Christians of various denominations. These were the friends who would invite me to church or Bible camp or youth group or volunteer events like Habitat for Humanity or cleaning up strips of highway. Some churches were big and loud, and seemingly well funded, with lots of music and singing. Some were small and quiet. The youth events didn't seem that different from secular youth-oriented events except for when they'd stop and pray. Looking back, though, I can definitely see that those events were recruitment tools. My non-Evangelical friends never invited me to join in. I also definitely sat in on some sermons that were very political - with clergy telling the congregation how they should vote. I did not like that one bit. Later, as an adult, I attended some weddings in religious houses. I think I've attended more weddings that took place outdoors, though, in parks and lakes and gazebos and the like. In my experience, funerals are usually held in funeral homes, although I've been to a few in houses of worship.
Surprisingly, school was my other introduction to religion. In school, we learned about world religions in sort of a general way - the features of many of the major world religions and how they had shaped history and policy. I also took a classic literature class in high school in which parts of the Bible were read and studied as ancient literature, in the same vein as, say, the Epic of Gilgamesh or the Bhagavad Gita or The Odyssey. Later, in college, I took electives that provided a baseline understanding of both the major "Eastern" traditions and the major "Western" traditions. Other classes sometimes touched on the ways religion has shaped society. For example, in a class about film and censorship, we learned about the Catholic League and their influence on the Hays Code.
So, I guess, my experience of religion has always been as sort of as an outsider looking in. I definitely feel like the church's power in the U.S. is less easy to trace than in Germany, thanks to the division of church and state, but it is sometimes really terrifying. As a woman, I hate that religious folks' religious view have such an outsized influence on what my experience of sex education in schools might be or in whether or not my employer's health insurance or my pharmacist can interject their religion into my reproductive healthcare. As a bisexual person who lived in California during the Prop 8 era, it was really frightening how much money religious organization funneled into that effort. I remember encountering counter-protestors who yelled slurs and held up signs saying "God doesn't love you as you are." It's very scary to be the object of hate from people who want to strip you of your rights (and succeeded, in that case, temporarily) just because they think a sky deity told them so. Honestly? It sounds... insane. I really don't understand why I'm supposed to not only respect folks' right to engage in a mass delusion, but also NOT feel threatened when they let their religion determine MY rights. Do you know that George Bush (senior, not W) thought that atheists shouldn't be citizens? I read that quote when I went to visit his presidential library. Do you know how frightening it is to find out that a president doesn't think you deserve citizenship - based solely on religion? Religious people and religious institutions in the U.S. have a lot of power and they shape a lot of our laws and policies in ways that, frankly, I find terrifying and personally threatening. I think I'd prefer Germany's system, in which the influence at least seems more transparent. Often, in the U.S., I feel like the "separation of church and state" is, in practice, far too narrow. Somehow, it feels like the church still gets to influence the state quite a bit. I mean, there are prayers at presidential inaugurations and congress has a chaplain! I feel like the separation really just benefits the religious institutions by letting them avoid taxes and government interference. Religion is baked into our schools, our hospitals, our charity institutions, our policies, and our laws. The separation just seems like a convenient smokescreen.
Well said!
Seperation of State and Church is difficult. After all we are human beings.
@@truthprevails5173 why should that be difficult? It's only a matter of the will to do so, and aquiring the relevant competence to get it right. There's nothing wrong with humans, even if a subsection of the population strongly believes humans are inherently flawed, and constantly tries to prove that.
It was the Church which molded the western society to a very great extent. The Ten Commandments acted as the corner stone. The great institutions of learning came up mainly due to the Church, not exclusively by Govt. Same is the case of hospitals and other health institutions. The overall participation of Church benefitted the whole society, not Christians alone.
Compare it with the contributions of atheists and their works! Hardly any positive points! Mostly it was destructive through out the world. Look at the atheist communism and the mass killings carried out in Cambodia, China, USSR, eastern Europe! Absolutely sickening! Atheist China killed millions of people through out the world, thanks to their deceptive dealings of Chinese Flu (COVID -19). Even UN helped them to cover up their crimes.
Now look at the atheist model nation of N. Korea! People don't have sufficient food to eat, but the rulers are busy in developing missiles and bombs! So much on goodness and positive influence of atheism! Now look at Europe and see how atheist ideologies are ruining once prosperous western society! One thing I am sure: absolutely nothing positive can come from atheism and it's bi products! Slowly the western society and rest of the world will realise. Thanks to atheist influence, UK, Germany, Belgium, France, Sweden etc are on a collective journey to become model nations in the order of Afghanistan, Somalia and Pakistan!
I had many of the same experiences with religion and am also an atheist. I appreciate the statements on how delusional people can determine others rights, based on their beliefs. It's very disturbing and frightening and I worry for our country (the US).
15:53 isn’t Thankgiving rooted in Christianity? The German equivalent, „Erntedankfest“ certainly is
My position has always been: everyone needs something to believe in, but nobody needs religion.
For me, the culprit is organized religion. If you want to sit in your home and talk to a wall, that's your thing and I have no issue with it. Once you try to make me do the same thing, that's what I have problems with.
@@glennjanot8128 Even organized Religion isn't forcing you to do anything ! If you live here in the US !
@@davidjanbaz7728 True, but depending on where you are, you could be ostrasized from local society due to being an atheist or any other religion than christian
I was on a business trip in the US and was invited to a church in SC, the difference to a German church was huge. In the US, church was more of a public event, like a concert or show. When we walked in it looked like a theater or cinema with screens to read what was going on in the 'show of the day'. They had a pinano and guitars. In Germany it is more of a sacred act in an often very old building with an organ. The age of the visitors was maybe two to three times that in the USA.
I could imagine you in a church in the US, but in Germany you are in the right age when your hairs become grey.
That's not the normal experience. Very different from my Catholic parish. That's more of a mega-church experience. They are Christians, but different style/beliefs compared to midwest Catholic.
Many Christian evangelical churches in the US lure in people with Christian Rock bands, revivalism, and theatrical entertainment. I don't think younger Americans would sit for an hour without being entertained. I truly think it's the only way they can keep people coming back.
More of a baptist or evangelical experience.
Or some mega church.
Most churches aren't like that. They're lucky to have a half decent pianist, much less an organ.
As long as that isn't the priest's organ
It depends on the denomination.
For me, being from one of the most (if not the most) atheist regions in Germany, Berlin, I already heavily struggle with the presence of church influence and religiosity in Southern and Western Germany - no to speak of the US.
PS: What I really, really love about your videos that you always do your research and look at real data, unlike most other "compare my new country x to my home country y" channels. This is truly a unique and well appreciated quality of yours.
I agree!
@@sonjagatto9981 so do I
The most atheist region in the world is often said to be eastern Germany, but I think the city of Berlin is more religious than the surrounding countryside, due to the fact that former West Berlin has a higher percentage of religious people.
@@xaverlustig3581 I will have to look up numbers, but having been born and grown in the rather conservative South-West of Berlin in the 70/80, I can say: Religion was always virtually non-existent in my social environment.
Berlin was the Capitol of Prussia I recall, and Prussians were Protestant. But you know maybe there is a God or perhaps an afterlife, ever hear of simulation theory? Basically the idea is the whole world we experience is just a computer simulation. Who created German history anyway, was it really your ancestors? What about the Russians, what do they exist for? Russians and Germans are what we call heavies, they drive the plot on the world stage cause wars and create challenges fornthe heroes to fight, or at least that was Germany in the first half of the 20th century, the Russians are fulfilling a similar role today, a lot of Russians disagree with this, yet they march, follow orders and they shoot, just like the Germans did during the World Wars. I wonder why I don't have a more prominent role in this story, it seems I am here just as an observer, I don't affect historical events very much, I just watch them on television. So what is it, do you think, I am supposed to do? It must be very boring for someone watching me, am I supposed to entertain them or something? Maybe I should run for President, but I don't think I'd win, mostly due to lack of name recognition I suppose.
When I first visited the United States in 1970, I stayed with a middle class family for two weeks. I was shocked when at the dinner table I saw them holding hands and saying grace. I had never seen this in France, where I lived at the time. One Sunday, they asked me to go to church with them. I accepted out of curiosity to see how churches were in the US. One of the congregants who realized that I was new, asked me to which church I belonged. Being non- religious, I answered that I don't belong to any church. He admonished me that I should go to church. After this, I told my host family that I will not go to church with them. Since then, I have noted the extreme religiosity of many Americans, which permeates to every facet of life. As you mentioned, praying at start of games,, inserting God in the pledge of allegiance, on the currency and now even on car license plates is unique to this country. In Western Europe, these things are completely unheard of. Another obsession in the US is displaying the flag everywhere and at every occasion as well as singing the national anthem at football games. These are a type of civic religion. You never see these in Europe.
@mahmoudloghman-adham9040
I`m sure you saw the hypocrisy also . The " christians " in the US are the most bigoted people and the flag wavers don`t care about my freedom -- only theirs . And evey politician has a flag pin on the lapel . It is all just theatre and means nothing.
Except Russia because Russia is based.
and Denmark and maybe Norway. Most people here in Denmark see a flag as a national symbol and nice to have when we celebrate even the smallest events. The flag becomes an objekt like candles. When used political it is often problematic.
With all due respect, when you were "admonished" for not being a church member, was it really just the guy saying "You should come out more!"?
When I was going to state-owned high school in Germany in the 1980ies, we held the Lord's prayer every morning. Even me as an atheist was told to rise, and stay silent. We had religion as a subject, taught separated by one's confession. Which I didn't attend, I stayed in the library. Every classroom was equipped with crucifix, and still is. In Italy, the situation is quite similar.
When given the choice, I'd much prefer the American way of allegiance to the flag and keeping religious education a private thing done in your personal time on weekends, separate from public school. The French way appeals to me even more. (Strangely though, some French condemn the U.S. yet seem to be oblivious of practices of their neighbouring countries Germany and Italy. Or about Nordic countries outperforming the U.S. in flags.)
My experience as a exchange student staying with an American family in the Midwest didn't shock me. A short moment of thankfulness at home before starting to eat is more appropriate than allegiance to religion in a public school. We drove to their Baptist Church every Sunday, yet I was never bothered by anyone. The Americans I met were some of the most decent and polite people that I ever met. Many were open and interested to learn about Germany. I felt no condescendance towards me or Europeans. I observe condescendance from many Europeans towards Americans though. It's not our best trait.
Having grown up in Germany and now having lived in the U.S. for decades, I can see the differences on how religion is practiced and taught. I must say as a pragmatic German, I felt uncomfortable and in some cases shocked, at the different approach to Christianity, in particular Evangelicals. In the U.S. it definitely feels more like indoctrination, and taking the bible verbatim (although it was often subject to personal interpretation and agendas), as the end all of how you should live your life, especially in the bible belt and/or rural areas. What becomes more and more disconcerting now, is that these beliefs and interpretations creep into politics, and wield a surprising amount of power over deciding state or federal policies, when we are supposed to have separation of church and state. I have been to areas, where the first question asked was not "How are you?" but "What church do you go to or do you attend church?" It was off putting and felt invasive and judgemental. If they had religion class in the schools where I live now, it would most likely not teach about different world religions or ethics. After having lived here a while, I decided not to attend church anymore (although it was mostly sporadic anyway) because I saw so much hypocrisy and judgement inside the church community. I now consider myself an agnostic, and I still manage to live a decent life. I feel comfortable in my skin and do not worry about any kind of doctrine that espouses to be THE ONLY way to live your life. Also, in Germany you can forego church taxes by leaving the church in an official declaration.
Same here as to having grown up in Germany (Hamburg) and now living in the US. I completely agree. I was quite shocked when one of my professors asked me if I 'had found my church home yet'. And that was a highly educated man who had been on sabbaticals abroad. Yet it apparently had never crossed his mind that someone might not be looking for a church to belong to.
Many respondents here comment on kindergardens run by the church in Germany. True, but those places are open to all kids, Christian, Muslim, atheist or whatever, and there will be no religious indoctrination. Totally different in the US; here parents send their kids to church run preschools because they want that indoctrination, even though they obviously won't call it that. So if you're atheist or non-religious, you have to be very careful.
The separation of church and state nominally exists in both countries, but it works very differently. In Germany you pay church tax (if you are a church member) to the state who then distributes it to the respective churches. That gives the state some oversight into church finances and is part of the reason why, for example, the scientologists cannot be accepted as a church there as they are not willing to open their finances to any external oversight. Here that kind of meddling of the state in church affairs would never fly. Unfortunately, that does not hold true the other way around. The state here uses taxpayer money, of all taxpayers, not just church members, to pay the churches to provide social services. The result is that, let's say, a person hoping to spend the night in a homeless shelter, will have to sit through a church service first. Or that families get vouchers funded by taxpayer money to send their kids to religious schools where they may not learn much about science etc,, all while public schools get starved for resources, even though they have to take all kids, while the private ones can cherry-pick the kids they want to educate (e.g. not many special ed classrooms in private schools).
Yes, and the growing influence of especially very right wing evangelical beliefs in politics is truly frightening.
Phillip, you just proved a point I made, perfectly. There are many ways to lead your life successfully, decently and productive w/o any religion or a different religion, and it has nothing to do with what you term as being anti-American. So, while you were at it, you threw in "my" type of immigration and canceling citizenships, deportation and illegals? To be frank, I can't follow those mental gymnastics. My final word for you is, please reflect on what you just wrote here, because it doesn't make sense.
Jesus said "I Am the Way, the truth and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
One thing I have internalised is to never talk to Americans about either politics or religion at all if I don‘t know them really well. Both topics tend to be a case of black or white with no shades of grey for many of them. I like the more critical approach to both topics, even though I am an actual churchgoer and active member of our protestant congregation.
I guess that the higher level of devotion and adherence to the bible‘s written word as the exact truth in part stems from the Puritan immigrants who left Europe because there people were getting too „lax“ in their religious practices for their liking or they were actually persecuted for it. That‘s probably also why we hear a lot less from the US about Catholic matters than Evangelical/Protestant, I suppose the majority of Christians are part of one of the Evangelical (as in non-Catholic) faiths. I guess they stuck to it more steadfastly since it was their common ground and reason for leaving their homes in the first place. So I can understand where they‘re coming from very easily, even while wondering how an enlightened people in this day and age would still stick to the bible verbatim without questioning it or at least acknowledging other approaches.
Well put!
Yes, you are probably right.
Different kinds of Protestants emigrated precisely because they wished to create communities of true believers, like my own Mormon relatives, who emigrated in 1862 and 1893.
From the foundation of the Moravian Church (Die Herrnhuter Brüdergemeinde) in the mid-1400s, to the Pentecostal movement, Protestants have had a very black and white view on Right and Wrong.
Catholics didn't escape to the Americas due to religious persecution.
I was raised with the concept never engage in politics or religion with people. Just walk away. In my household, either of those are forbidden subjects. I wish peace and tranquility in my house not heated debate with so called know it alls. (I have to put myself in that same category, "so called know it all"). In the US we are so divided on things that things can get violent, ugly, lose family members or friends over the ridiculous.
All these comments paint an illuminated picture of past and present Christian faith in Europe. From the beginning (1st century) faith in Christ has been an experience for each person between Christ Himself and those that seek forgiveness for sins and final reconciliation with the Father. The effect "should" be a life changed for the better, "all the "fruit of the Spirit", " love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control." People like that should make the lives around them better. No one suddenly becomes perfect and liked by everyone. People are people and can still be jerks. But their faith allows God to work these things out of a persons life, hence, the body of Christ, daily personal prayer, Bible study and trusting in God's providence when faced with an awesome challenge. Some people struggle against the terrible life they had lived before faith in Christ. Some slip back into their "old ways" while still professing Christ. If they don't overcome this crisis of faith they appear to others as hypocrites or worse. We always have free will where God is concerned. However if their "transformation" to faith in Christ was real God gives each believer a powerful edge to "help" them overcome the "world", the flesh and the Devil. This is where devotion to Christ comes in and trusting in the Word of God. You expressed a concern at the end of your comment: "...how an enlightened people in this day and age would still stick to the bible verbatim without questioning it or at least acknowledging other approaches." Do you have an example of sticking to the Bible verbatim without questioning?
@@donaldboomer6313 Well, since you ask - there is the topic of same-sex relationships for example. People suffer persecution, even torture or death, because of who they love. More often than not because their version of the Christian faith doesn‘t condone same-sex relationships. „It says so in the Bible“, doesn‘t it? However, looking at when and in what context the different texts were written, there is a logic to that „rule“ that may have been helpful then but isn‘t anymore. So even if „the Bible says so“, it just does not apply to present day people.
Another example: How do you explain that there are schools in the US teaching kids only Genesis aka creation and no science? There is a lot more to the creation story than „this is how it must have happened because the Bible says so“, but it certainly is not how this planet/earth/world actually came into being.
There is a lot in the Bible that simply isn‘t „true“ as far as the real world is concerned. If a person is convinced that they can only be a true Christian if they believe it all to be true as it is written, they have not understood even one iota of what that concept of „faith“ is all about. And that is putting aside the fact that at least in our German or English Bibles nothing is „as it is written“ anyway, because the whole book wasn‘t written in our native languages.
In a nutshell, Jesus said: Be humble, be kind, be helpful. Telling other people how to live their lives based on one’s own beliefs rarely is helpful, nor kind, nor humble.
@@maikek.76 doubt never helped anyone. Doubt is usually destructive and makes things worse. Jesus never said it’s ok to doubt or question God! Having faith and believing has always been the problem with people. As far as gays go they have been the least persecuted people. Purveyors of Homosexuality have always had a free hand in most societies. It’s Christians who are widely persecuted around the world and throughout history. Western civilization was built on Christianity with their rational viewpoint of a creator who revealed Himself to mankind to reconcile them back to God.
I am a European atheist. I have travelled a lot in the USA and like the country and the people.
I want to relate an experience that I had in Florida that felt foreign to me and something that would never happen where I live. I was in Florida with my disabled son who uses a wheelchair. At Kennedy Space Center, I was chatting with the guide about all kinds of things. Just the usual friendly chatter. He inquired about my son and his future prospects. I do not mind talking about it and I told him the disability was permanent. No problem.
His response was that he would pray for him. That surprised me. No one has ever said something like that to me or my son. No one would ever do so here. For a second I got slightly angry. How dare he impose his religion on me? Religion is a private thing. I cooled down quickly and I don't think he even noticed it. Obviously I shouldn't impose my culture on him and I am sure that it was simply a statement of compassion. But to me it was weird.
@@Claudia-hr5ei It's not just cultural. If there is some big tragedy, such as a school shooting or a devastating hurricane, many people seem to think that "sending thoughts and prayers" is a substitute for doing anything that would actually either help current victims or prevent future ones.
@@KaiHenningsen exactly, at the school shooting in Texas, most of the commentators sent thoughts and prayers AND the recommendation to arm teachers.
Thank you for sharing such a private story. Many Americans don't think about this being perceived negatively or imposing their religion on someone else. Many Americans think that this is just the right (and nice) thing to say. But, it's certainly a huge cultural difference.
In parts of Europe, Atheïst/atheism isn't used. Since the majority is without religion. The ones with religion are named the religious
It's the same mentality that gave us Americans the contemptible, cliched "thoughts & prayers" response after every school shooting.
🤬🤬🤬🤬 "thoughts & prayers"!
I (American) would oppose any compulsory church tax. Religion should be supported by its adherents or by other donations freely contributed by individuals, whether believers or not.
I’m with you there.
It's the US that's the outlier in the world when it comes to religion. It's a culture shock simply coming from Canada. Also, I have a hard time believing that those in the US are truly religious. It's more similar to a fan base of a band than anything internally meaningful.
School courses in Religion in Germany are often more about learning about religion in a scientific way. Not necessarily To make you actually believe in it but To educate you about it and that is important as it will broaden your knowledge. It‘s fundamentally different in its INTENTION. Unfortunately you didn‘t dive into that. It‘s basically a Common understanding here that you should know about ways and means of Religion but at the same time Most people agree on Not taking it seriously at all in a literal way.
I dropped out of church at the age of 23 thats ~45 years ago. And since then, i haven't paid any church taxes. I left the religous classes when i was 14 years old. That was 1968 and a little scandal :-) in the village i grew up. It was and is possible because at the age of 14 there is free choice of religion.
If you think of the churches as owning lots of properties - never forget the historical background. The churches own that land, that buildings etc. since ages. And like a lot of people here already mentioned, the Kitas, the hospitals etc. are run by the churches and are not a place to infiltrate with some religous ideas.
My wife is sometimes voluntarily working at the 'La Strada'(named after the great Fellini movie) a place were prostitutes, male and woman, can drop in, warm up, get food and condoms. They even get medical help and legal advice! It is run by the 'Caritas' a catholic organisation!
And i really think that 90% of the priest, even the catholic ones, don't doubt science. Even the theory of the 'Big Bang' was developed by Lemaître, a catholic priest and later a 'Domestic Prelate' (a very high rank) - search at Wikipedia. He refused to call this as a proof of gods Genesis.
I see it that way:
- in USA is religion and state diveded by constitution, but has a much higher impact in daily life, education and science.
- in Europe there is the seperation not that strict, but there is almost no minfluence in the daily life and education. And no way, that the churches have influence on science
"Charitas is a catholic organisation".... well, 2%. Wikipedia isn't always the best source, but in this case it is pretty reliable "Der Anteil von Kirchengeldern in der Finanzierung aller Tätigkeiten von Caritas und Diakonie beträgt insgesamt etwa zwei Prozent". They do like to tell people, how generous the churches are, and that it is wholly funded by nice christians, but this is a lie. if you aren't christian and want to work there you will have a REALLY hard time getting employed, it is unconstitutional GG Art. 3 "Niemand darf wegen seines Geschlechtes, seiner Abstammung, seiner Rasse, seiner Sprache, seiner Heimat und Herkunft, seines Glaubens, seiner religiösen oder politischen Anschauungen benachteiligt oder bevorzugt werden. Niemand darf wegen seiner Behinderung benachteiligt werden." but nobody seems to care.
@@GGysar I agree with you. Also in my opinion the status of the churches is a violation of our Grundgesetz.
The problem is the so called Konkordat, a contract from 1933! with the Deutsche Reich and the catholic church which regulates a couple of things. Mostly in favour of the church. The Nazis wanted to silence the church for some time.
Because the German Bundesverfassungsgericht decided that this contract is still in in order. Ok, that was as far as i remember somewhen in the 50ties. And i still think that this is not correct, because there are articles in it which counter the the Grundgesetz:
The mentioned Article 3 says also:
(1) Alle Menschen sind vor dem Gesetz gleich.
(2) Männer und Frauen sind gleichberechtigt. Der Staat fördert die tatsächliche Durchsetzung der Gleichberechtigung von Frauen und Männern und wirkt auf die Beseitigung bestehender Nachteile hin.
(3) Niemand darf wegen seines Geschlechtes, seiner Abstammung, seiner Rasse, seiner Sprache, seiner Heimat und Herkunft, seines Glaubens, seiner religiösen oder politischen Anschauungen benachteiligt oder bevorzugt werden. Niemand darf wegen seiner Behinderung benachteiligt werden.
With 14 i wasn't ready to leave the church. Still got the idea in mind "if everyone follows there might be something to it". 🥴
However, it wasn't that big a deal anymore when i finally left the church. Just a small fee for the municipal paperwork. The priest didn't even try to contact me and convince me otherwise.
Ashton, you are brilliant! I've been an ex-pat (UK) living in Germany for 30 years. My daughter was born and grew up in Germany (and then moved to San Diego). So I understand the German system entirely, so I thought, but I still learn so much from you.
I lost my faith really early at about 10. I had a nice priest as religion teacher who didn't mind that at all. Every time there is a scandal here in Germany the church loses more members. Which is a good thing. I'm not sure if the church employees like in a hospital are now allowed to get a divorce or not.
I've seen videos about American religious extremists advocating to dissolve the separation of state and church. That scared me a lot.
Your not American not your country none of your business.
Thanks, Ashton, for another well researched and informative video! I grew up in Germany as a faithful catholic and even served as altar boy and went to a catholic high-school (Gymnasium), were we started school with a prayer each morning. Yet, I found the German school curriculum very open minded to develop free thinkers and problem solvers and science played a big part in my academic path, so I learned a lot about the atrocities of the church from the inquisition to the crusades to turning a blind eye to the holocaust during the Third Reich. After I emigrated to Canada in my late 20s I learned about the horrifying methods of “christianizing” as a tool for colonizing the indigenous population and many crimes of child abuse, I became a non-believer and feel quite liberated. I still value the teachings of the New Testament, instilled good values in my children who we took to the liberal-minded Untied (protestant) church as a family to keep an open-mind approach (it did not last, none of my kids go to church any longer), I still donate to charitable organizations, church-related or not, but I remain very sceptical about organized religion, especially the fundamentalist and extremist followers, as there are many in the US, alarmingly!
Mr German, you are alarmed by Christian fundamentalists in a foreign country the USA at the other end of the world who have killed anybody in your country Germany, but you are not alarmed by muslims in your country even if this religion has caused several deaths in your country. And I'm not even talking of the jihadists in your country. Is that not some kind of hypocrisy?
BTW, do you know that there are Christian fundamentalists in Germany. I grew up in Strasbourg I know what I'm talking about.
Stunning how Germans want to desperately prove they are better than others especially than Americans. Hidden inferiority complex?
@@Prime72 Naivety is one of the greatest dangers facing the West. The most extreme "Christian fundamentalists" are way holier than the most moderate muslims. Why ? Because the so-called Christian fundamentalists never give births to Christian fundamentalists. Even moderate do give birth to children that become jihadists. And fanatical moslems almost always give birth to children that are or stay or become fanatical moslems.
I am a Dane living in Germany for the last 15 years, since I was 52. In Denmark I was baptized (evangelic as all the rest then) but only once or twice attended a service in a church until I was 13 and was about to confirm my religious belief. That was difficult for me. Although both of my parents were members of the church, they never attended any service that I know of, and we never prayed at home. In fact my father was an atheist and my mother just non-religious, but both of them supported the church with church-tax (0,5-1% of the gross income) because they liked the +2000 mostly old churches (half of them dating back 8-900 years).
In kindergarten we often had to pray because the leader was very religious, and the same thing happened in school. From 3rd to 7th grade, I struggled to learn by heart religious verses from the many Danish psalms (one verse per week). My brother could look at a verse for two minutes in the morning and repeat it “by heart” in the lesson that day - I used sometimes hours, because they never made any sense to me.
When I was 11 or so I was very ill (burst appendix) and had to stay in hospital for 5 weeks because I almost died. In the week before the correct diagnose was made I lost my faith in a god and I told my parents that if I had to live like this I would rather die. Religious belief of any sort has never returned, but I performed my confirmation (which included 5 times we should attend a service), because I would not miss the presents that usually followed. Now I find it funny that I can quote most Danish psalms by heart, but I can quote thousands of pop songs as well.
In 10th to 12th grade, we were also taught religion and here by a real Danish priest, but the scope of this education was to understand Christianity and Christian belief and culture - and to some extent other religions as well. He was very good doing that I think. During that time I had a girlfriend and of course we had sex. Sex before marriage is no issue in Denmark - we just do it if we can.
When I met my now wife, she was 21 and had left the church at the age of 18. For some nostalgic reason I did not leave the church until I was 45 or so. Until then I gladly paid 0,6 % tax for the church. We planned to move to another area where the tax would be 1,3 % which was very much for Danish conditions.
We did not seal our relationship with a civil marriage until I was 50 (she 48) and we left to live in Luxembourg. It was a practical thing that makes a lot of legal stuff easier. Our daughter was never baptized, and neither is her children, but they had a civil marriage when their first child was 2 or 3 years - for practical and tax reasons.
We find the American approach to religion very strange and when it comes to abortion, we are very much for it - until the 12th week like in Denmark or maybe to the 16th week of pregnancy, but of course you should do all to protect yourself from getting pregnant (or getting a woman pregnant) if you don’t want to. Avoiding sex is not an option.
In the south of Germany people greet you with “Grüß Gott”. Every time I hear it, I almost jump because I really don’t want to say it, being an atheist, but I usually greet back: “Grüß Gott”. In Denmark we have no such common Christian greeting. On the other hand I certain don’t like “Servus” any better (I am your slave/servant) but even that greeting can be heard from me answering back.
My wife and I married in Japan; there the only thing that counts legally is the registration at the city office; weddings of any kind have no legal significance, although people are free to have them if they wish.
@@alanjameson8664it is the same in Germany. The church will only marry you if you have been to the "Standesamt".
You are overthinking the "Grüß Gott" and "Servus" lmfao. I am originally from Stuttgart (now Japan), and you are getting too confused about language here.
Servus might mean slave in Latin but very few speak Latin and barely anyone would know that that's what it means in Latin beyond a party gag (not like they would be pronouncing it correctly either way, only similarity is the spelling).
If I am very frank with you, having grown up around Stuttgart I had not once in my life have I noticed that "Grüß Gott" is supposed to be spelled with two words or that it even contains the word god, since literally just a very friendly welcome. Maybe it's a generational thing though, idk but I would be surprised if anyone actually knows that haha
The right answer to "Grüss Gott" is " If a See him I 'll do "😅
You have forgot to mention that you can opt out of the church tax. In northern germany only a small percentage pay those taxes. And the religious classes in school handles all religions, not only christianity. 19:41
I can't recall any priest in Germany having a private jet nor would a priest here clame that Jesus has spoken to him personally and gave him oders which strongly deviate from the old bible. This isn't describing a Christian priest, but a cult leader. Religion here isn't radical and fuel for hatred like we see in the USA. Makes me wonder if Americans really read the original bible and the ten commandments in it. I had a friend in AR who was raped violently at an age of 16 and even some of the visible scars she will carry into her grave. Her dad was very involved in the local church. Years later and not having married yet, her dad told her that if he should ever find out that she is a lesbian, he would put a bullet in her forehead. What a Christian this man must have been.
you really need to do some more research on the Catholic Church if you think this is an American issue. I mean just in 2019 the pope talked about a relgious order in France that was being closed for sexual slavery of nuns. The child sex scandal involved 5% of total catholic priests according to some reports and had priests in pretty much every country with a decent catholic presence.
As for hatred, look at any heavily religious population for any faith and you will find some who use it to fuel hatred. Humans will use almost anything people feel passion for to drive hatred.
There is a huge overlap between what cult leaders prey on and what churches provide, its why many people fall into cults when looking for a spiritual connection.
Hello! Swedish fan here who loves your thorough research!
In regard to german religious classes, are these strictly classes in christianity then?
In Sweden we also have religious classes, but they serve more as a cursory overview of the major religions in the world and their effect on culture and society. A way to help young people orient themselves and understand how people may hold or prioritize different values than themselves. The phrase 'religious classes' feels fairly loaded, so I figure a somewhat more thorough explanation might help diffuse that a bit!
Cheers!
Erik
as far as i remember religious classes were divided in the two parts catholic and protestants, and classes would be better named hours, cause it was at my school time one school hour (45 min) a week. later came the third one which was so called ethic hour. i guess today there will be in the cities with higher Islamic percentage also some Islamic hour too, but as far as i remember there is still some controversy about it. Mostly which Islamic group is sending teachers, are the teachers from the government/Bundesland are real Islam or something else.
But for me first religous hour and later ethic feeled a bit like a alternative history lesson...
It's really more of an ethics class. Even in my primary school days in the early 2000s it was kind of like that. Later on in your high school equivalent it straight up just becomes an ethics class.
Experiences may vary of course
Hi Erik, the way it works is that if parents (and their children) are religiously inclined, they can opt to have their children take Catholic or Protestant (I believe in some areas, they can now also get Muslim) classes (depending on how many children they have that want/need such classes), which will mostly focus on overwies of world religions, church stories and basic catechism for their religious practice, but even those will mostly focus on the ethics behind it (consequences of being good vs. bad, society-oriented activism, fundamental ethics, e.g. is the death penalty moral etc.). Parents who opt their children out, agree to send their children to an alternative ethics class, which solely focuses on ethical principles without the respective religious indoctrination and baggage.
Hi Eric, Boris Martin has answered your question already.
If you can't find his text: religious classes in Germany are pretty similar to those in Sweden.
During my time in school in Lower Saxony in the 1980/90s we had two (later three) religious classes: one for catholics and one for protestants and "Werte und Normen" for whose who did not want to the first two (but this was only available in higher classes). As far as I remember the two muslims students in my class had to take "Werte und Normen" but the sole member of a free church did not take any of these classes.
Great video. However I think you missed the question why? I think the difference in church attendance is because in Germany we have a much higher rate of church criticism than in the US. This comes mainly from our general political discussion culture. Being in the middle of several pilitical systems and ideologies we developed a much more critical attitude towards authorities like churches. In Germany it is quite common to actually talk about church, believe and politics at the dinner table. There is currently even a major effort underway in the German Catholic Church to reform major rules like women priesthood. This is called the "Synodaler Weg" and could actually lead to a seperation of the German Carholic church from Rome. Germans in general want a more 21th cenntury church that fits to our current ways of living and that's why only few actually attend mass which is not very modern or close to the people even if they still associate with being christian and pay the church tax. However the scandals around pedophilia have shifted this a lot towards leaving church altogether.
Well said
Very interesting points!
Do you actually think that these pedophilia issues are a major factor in the decline of participation in the church? I am aware that there also have been such scandals in Germany, but I had the impression that these were rare cases, not a systemic issue. I might well be wrong, but it didn't register as such in my mind.
@@michaelutech4786 They were very much a systemic issue, especially the suppression of reports and investigations
The scandals actually were one of the driving factors. The church is doing a lot to prevent those crimes in the future but there are still individuals like the bishop from Cologne who is mentioned in the press every few weeks and because nobody seems to be able to just remove him every little scandal drives people away. On the other hand the "Synodaler weg" actually created valuable options to reform the Church - however every time it gets slapped down by the institutionalized church or Rome simply ignores it we will see anothe wave of people leaving the church. That does not mean that Germans are not religious but they are very critical of the formal churches. I actually expect either a seperation of some sort and radical reform or leaving members to a point where they need to sell some of the churches (buildings).
They're not less or more religious; they just practice and think of Christianity as an idea differently, causing discrepancies in polls like this. I live in South Carolina and most people I talk to IRL claim they're nonreligious.
Excellent video as always.
I would like to mention (and it probably already has been) that church tax in Germany is not mandatory. You can 'resign' your membership of the church or, as in my case, never was a member. This is noted on your payslip and you don't pay the tax.
1.) The American experience: I am always astounded by the blind faith exhibited by many US citizens particularly away from the big cities. Not in a negative way at all, in fact I admire this even though I don't really understand it. I rather like the idea of a regulated Sunday; Church then Denny's then mowing the back yard. 🙂
2.) The German experience: A lot of the points you raised are (obviously) based on history. Many of the states in the HRE were ruled by Bishops or Arch Bishops. The church had a leading role in the governance of the empire and even though Napoleon tried to put an end to it, the lands and towns still owed taxes (tithes) and allegiance to that diocese. This never really disappeared but was just organized differently.
As you live in Freiburg, it might by interesting for you to see how often the coat of arms of Archdiocese of Freiburg appear around your area.
Coats of arms have very important meanings going back to the middle ages when few could read or write but a "picture" was always recognizable.
Germany has a very big culture of voluntary work (Ehrenamt). Most firefighters, the THW (technical aid), Red cross, Tafeln (food supplies) sport clubs (Vereine) and many more, work as volunteers without payment. So there are a lot of possibilities to engage socially without having churches or religion envolved.
Many, if not most, German societies for social welfare have a historical background in the church. Of the six major welfare organisations in Germany, one is based in the union structure (AWO), one is somewhat leftist in origin (Der Paritätische), one is political neutral (Red Cross) and three are clearly religious in background (Caritas, Diakonie, ZWST). One reason is that the religious groups had organizational structures for centuries, so it was easy to extend that. Individual projects or societies may exist under that umbrella without being "devoted".
@@joergsonnenberger6836 Another reason may be that paranoid rulers in earlier centuries did not want their subjects meeting together, for fear that they might be plotting their overthrow, but they could not ban religious gatherings.
So a lot of early trade guilds and suchlike started out in religious guise as a group of bakers, or surgeons, or whatever, who had come together to celebrate a particular saint's day at the cathedral, and built their other activities around that link.
Hospitals often had an explicit religious affiliation for that reason, not because all of those who wished to build one thought they were thereby saving their souls.
In earlier times, before company law developed, it was easier to set up a religious fraternity than a secular voluntary association.
Volunteerism is also big in the USA. A beautiful thing wherever IMHO.
I am a German (Catholic listed, but not practising) who spent some years in the U.S. Bible belt. I found religion and society just as confusing in the US as in Germany. U.S. public schools are supposed to be completely secular, but at the same time teachers and students alike were openly devoutly Christian. Being not devoutly Christian or having another religion all together could quickly make you an outsider. In Germany I attended a Catholic convent school. We had prayer sessions every morning, mass and religious studies as a mandatory subject. At the same time the overall environment was a very liberal and tolerant one. The school was open to everyone regardless of their religious affiliation. Muslim girls were allowed to wear head scarves. The curriculum followed the state's standard curriculum including sex education and evolution theory. Of course there were also downsides. As the school was bound to Catholic Church law it was compelled to fire homosexual teachers once these officially got married (previously the same rule applied to divorcees) Neither the school nor the student body were too much in favour of this rule.
Personally I am not a practising Catholic as I don't agree with the teachings of the church. However I am an active member by means of voluntary work. I am a youth leader and member of the city's volunteer squad. Still, like many of my friends and colleagues, you won't find me in church on a Sunday.
keep up the good work. 👏😎 I also am nominally Roman Catholic and have major differences of belief .
My recommendation: Switch to the protestants, we're a pretty liberal bunch.
@@xela6349 Thanks - I'll give it some thought.
@@xela6349 In the village where I grew up in Southwestern Germany, the Protestants were the biggest bunch of bigots you can imagine, with many of their beliefs seeming to still dwell in Medieval times… In our area, the Catholic minority were the tolerant, modern ones.
@@Aine197 that doesn't reflect my experience at all. With Protestants even women can become priests, our priests can marry and much more. I'd call that öeagues more progressive than the catholics.
You seemed to imply that most people pay the Kirchensteuer, but anyone can opt out of it. That just means that you can’t get married or buried by the church. Or does it also affect other church services such as day care centers?
Come to Australia, we just tend not to give a toss about formalised religion and usually roll our eyes at those that do.
Nicht cool
Way to go!
I grew up in the East of Germany, which is even less religious than what the average tells you. So coming to Western Germany for my job, I had a bit of a culture shock even within Germany (I am not religious in the slightest). That being said, you specifically asked if being religious is a stereotype we have of Americans, and yes, that is very much the case. For me, personally, religion in America seems to be more... hm... on the offensive? For lack of a better word? In Germany, it most often feels like a live-and-let-live approach, which seems very different to the US. I've not been to America myself, yet, so I don't have personal experience (yet?). But things I've seen in (American) documentaries made me pretty uncomfortable even from my home thousands of miles away.
Was religion driven underground in the former DDR? I know that it was in the USSR and most Eastern bloc countries where churches had to be registered so they could be controlled by the government and being a member of an unregistered church was illegal. Poland remained openly Catholic though. Religion seems to have resurfaced in Eastern Europe since the fall of communism especially in Russia with the Orthodox church there.
@@lemsip207 It was "driven underground" if you wanted a government job in the DDR, but otherwise was much closer to the Polish situation.
@Phillip Banes Except there are still a lot of American military personnel in Germany. The US still has around 40 military facilities there. The giant Ramstein air base in southwest Germany has over 50,000 US service members. It's probably hard for the locals to completely ignore what these heavily armed foreigners think.
@Phillip Banes Not having the right to bear arms means you can go to school or about your business without the fear of a mass shooting atrocity. There is freedom of speech in Germany as there is in other EU member states.
@Phillip Banes Complete BS! You can actually legally own an AR15 in Germany. And you can use it where it is safe to do so. There are severe legal hoops to jump through but it's possible - most of us just don't see any need to bother with a gun as we rarely plan mass shootings, have a lot less violent crime and a capable police force. And FYI - we have freedom of speech in article 5, pretty much at the top, of our constitution. It's not just an amendment.
Do some factchecking on the BS you guys are fed over there.
As a Germany living in America, and particularly in a small town in the bible belt, I can say that I was shocked how much religion is shaping the daily life here. I lived in Denver before, and there I felt a lot more at home in terms of religion, as it was much more comparable to Germany, where religion is very much a private matter and is almost never talked about. When we moved to our current town, almost immediately when people heard that we just had moved here, the first question was about whether we had chosen our church yet. What strikes me as the most jarring difference to Germany is the amount of different denominations you find in the US, and how many people are literalists when it comes to the bible. I have met so many Young Earth Creationists (YECs) here in the US, it was quite surprised by how prevalent this believe is particularly in the rural communities here.
I grew up in East Germany and I am non-religious. In general I would expect the number of non-religious people in former East Germany to be much higher than in former West Germany. To be honest I was not aware of the amount of money collected for the churches in Germany, I find this completely unjustified, and I would like to see this changed, or at least tied to stipulations on how the churches are required to spend this money. I would completely support forcing the churches to divest large amounts of the property holdings they posses in Germany if they are not directly linked to their religious or charitable work, and also mandate that pretty much all of the money collected has to be spend on essential items like charitable work and other services the church provides to their members (i.e. daycare centers etc).
Why did you decide to leave germany for the US. As an American I'd rather live in Germany
Churches are businesses and their CEOs are extremely well paid. When people die there is no way to demand a refund, so it’s foolproof for the religious money printing machine.
@@adamferencszi797👍
I’m sure there is waste. But seizure of church property in England hurt the poor people because many charities and land used by the poor fell into the hands of the King and Nobles who made life many times worse for the serfs while enriching themselves. It was outright thievery and looting. What Europe need is a spiritual transformation of their hearts ♥️ to the Creator though Christ. They never let go of paganism and war which in turn destroyed them many times over. The heart is deceitful and wicked, but God tests their hearts. Europe needs a gigantic change of their minds and hearts though Holy Spirt conviction. A true Christian revival will make a change that will last!
@@donaldboomer6313 you're delusional
I lived in Mannheim for 2 years in1990-92 while serving in the US Army. Having grown up in a religious faith in America I was intrigued by the difference between US and German perceptions of Religion. I think you laid it out very well and would suggest that Americans need to convert from public to private religion, and religion should be less partisan. God Bless!
Hi. I’m American (upper Midwest) but have lived in Bavaria the past 13 years. I was raised in a very Pentecostal, evangelical Baptist family, but realized at a very early age that it was not at all for me. As an adult (now 58) I have not associated with any religion and don’t intend to ever. So when I moved here, I found the idea of a church tax really strange and until I understood it thought it was some sort of a legalized mafia shakedown. But honestly, once i understood it, I don’t really consider it a “tax” at all. Taxes are not voluntary. You don’t have a choice, it’s just taken from you by force whether you like it or not. (Don’t believe it, try not paying your taxes). Church tax on the other hand is more like a fixed fee for voluntary participation that happens to be collected by the government. You are free to declare you are a non believer and therefore opt out of paying the fee, and no one from the Finanzamt is going to arrest you. Just don’t try to have a church wedding, funeral or anything like that. So in that sense, I think it is totally fair, even the portion the state keeps as it’s handling fee.
As long as we are on the subject of taxes, I would love to see a video about how as an American citizen living and earning 100% abroad for years, we still have to file US income tax every year. Something that Germans living in the US would not have to do, like most of the rest of the civilized world.
_All_ of the rest of the civilised world, I think. I don't think anywhere but the US has this strange idea that taxes are still owed even if you've lived in another country for decades.
Hindu or Muslim would never be any high post in US, like prime minister of UK now, without getting demonized for his beliefs by Christians there. It would simply won’t happen.
"Church tax on the other hand is more like a fixed fee for voluntary participation that happens to be collected by the government. You are free to declare you are a non believer and therefore opt out of paying the fee, and no one from the Finanzamt is going to arrest you. Just don’t try to have a church wedding, funeral or anything like that. So in that sense, I think it is totally fair, even the portion the state keeps as it’s handling fee." But, there is a way to have a church baptism, wedding, and funeral, and not have to pay the tax: Just say that you are an Orthodox Christian. So it sounds like those people are getting a better deal than other German Christians.
That was a very good one! Compliment
I life in Switzerland and opt out of chirch as early as I can remember.
I heard that in USA the kinds got the "School Prayer" at the morning or salute to the flag no matter their believe or origin. Totally sick in my opinion!!
In my "believe" religion people are the stupidest and the smartest among them abuse it for their agenda (Politics!).
I am so happy to not be an (North) American or life there, so I am "allowed" to have my own Opinion and Believes :-D
@@Sewblon I doubt that you would get an orthodox wedding if you're not actually orthodox.
I think that much of what you call religion is actually a mix of religion and culture. If you understand Christianity as a mind set that determines how people think and act and then why, the differences are probably not all that big.
Religion in Germany and Europe has been much more pervasive in society than it ever was in the USA. You can see that if you read books like "Unter dem Rad" of Hermann Hesse. When these ties were untangled, the church lost a lot of its religious and cultural meaning, arguably because of these ties.
The USA inherited a lot of what is called the protestant church in Germany. The USA never had a strong church integrated into the state. Instead it was a safe haven for many religious splinter groups emigrating from Europe which led to these strange but in a way also awesome religious islands.
Imagine to be a child visiting a catholic church service. This is so far removed from anything meaningful, that I always found it surprising that one or two kids in my class actually went to church regularly. Services in the USA are entirely different, even from protestant German traditions. If I would live in Jamaica, I would attend services if for no other reason than the entertainment value.
I have the impression that Germans are pretty much not religious in terms of everything that is procedural or mystic. On the other hand, if you look at the philosophy of Christianity, Germans might generally live more by these standards than even US evangelists.
I think the reason for the differences is more than anything else a result of the church being more of a political institution than a religion over a period of many centuries. In the USA, this is a rather recent role and even today, there is no such thing as "a church".
The protestant church of Germany of today is completely different from American protestant churches though. I think the American protestant churches compare much more to what we in Germany would call "free churches". The American protestants probably even call themselves the same as one the 20 protestant churches that are part of the German protestant church synod (yet in reality there are no differences between these 20 churches anymore, they all act as one entity) but they don't act like any of the German protestant churches.
Free churches however are always seen as a bit weird from my experience, their members tend to be much more religious or "holy" in their behavior yet that's still not the same as some American churches.
Take the Baptist church for example, it also exists in Germany but there are just 82,000 members. And some parts of society say they're like a cult or sect, so everything apart from the catholic church and the official protestant church, although there being 20 protestant churches that form the German protestant church organization but ultimately do, preach and teach the same with the same iconography and the same rituals, is seen as a bit weird, too religious one might say.
@@klamin_original I was not so much referring to the protestant church, but more to the various groups such as calvinists, all the precursors of the US mormons and also the lutherian and of course the anglican church. In Europe and especially in Germany, most protestant groups were pressed into a single group by the conflict with the catholic church and eventually mostly integrated into the lutherian stream, that's at least my understanding. Many who did not fit in emigrated to the USA or dissolved over time.
There are many fundamental culteral differences between the US and continental Europe that seem to have their foundations in these distinct protestant groups, such as f.e. the concept that I call 'retrospective merit' for lack of a better term. By that I mean that wealth is often considered to be a kind of divine approval in the US and in itself is a sign of merit, while in Europe people are much more critical of this concept. No European would ever claim that Elon Musk is doing Gods work. Instead Europeans would immediately ask what would qualify a car and rocket manufacturer to make the rules of the town square we had to abide by. I don't know how conscious this is, but wealth is a quality beyond question for many Americans, that's at least how I interpret this. Whether this really is a consequence of Calvinism, I'm not sure, but considering that this is one of the few cultural departures between the US and Europe, it is convincing to me.
Christian splinter groups in Germany are in my books pretty much sects, mostly because the big two churches have been so deeply integrated in society that a small splinter group defies the concept of traditional religions. And of course groups like Jehowas witnesses actually check all the points you would look for in a sect, in the more abusive sense. Their teachings are mostly the same, but considering how very political small departures are, these distinctions often lead to strange effects (Like why would Christianity preclude modern healing methods, when Jesus did wonders to heal people).
I'm currently living in a Muslim country, where about 98% of the population are Muslims and I see the Mosques being filled with practicing Muslims every friday and still active every day. I don't have numbers about how many are actually practicing, but this is very unoppressive. People, especially younger generations, are drinking alcohol openly, are rather promiscuous, undogmatic and very tolerant. To my best knowledge, religion was never much of a decisive factor in politics here, except for the aftermath of the Arab Spring in which an Islamic party got to power and tried to establish a connection between politics and religion, with moderate success. This seems to be a situation that is somewhere in between Germany and the USA. People are actively religious but that is more of a private matter that does not spill over much into society, despite the conformity. As long as you don't marry into families with diverging practices, religion is not much of a topic in daily live as long as you don't touch personal sensibilities. Pretty much how its supposed to be.
Yet another aspect that might be different is that Germany (as well as much of continental Europe) had its enlightenment based on a Christian philosophy. That added secular values that were mostly compatible with religious values with the most prominent feature that it did not necessarily require divine ascension. Kant's categorical imperative is pretty much the same as the Christian dogma, but it's based on its functional benefit and not justified as message from Jesus. So people could do the right thing either because they believe that this is God's will or just because it's reasonable. This process of coming to terms with morals in that ambivalent view port is something that occupied European societies for a long time but is not really part of US culture and not even that of the UK which had a parallel evolution that, though similar in many aspects was always distinct from the continental process. In Germany you will often find an assumption that if something is reasonable it can't really be in conflict with religion. You will find that attitude often in people who are non-practicing believers (by believer I mean those who actually believe, not those who categorise themselves as Christians, which is not quite the same group).
@@nonnoyobisnis8705 Republicans use religion as part of their southern strategy. Their problem is that demography favours Democrats and both parties are so similar in their profile that Republicans were pretty much out of options to preserve their role as one of the two parties. The only feasible choice for the Republicans was to polarise the voter pool and adopt more and more fringe topics to preserve their base. The vast majorities of topics that are currently considered traditional conservative positions are actually not at all part of the classical conservative canon in the US. Most of them have been adopted recently. If you consider that despite all the creative manipulations like excessive gerrymandering, hyper-opportunistic hypocrisy and all that, Republicans can barely get a majority in the popular vote, it's easy to see why this new craziness is pretty much a necessity.
I don't see that Republicans and Religion are really connected, other than that they found a very effective way to cooperate for very profane reasons.
But you find the same hypocrisy with Democrats, they just pay much more attention to decorum.
I consider this two party system in the US as completely dysfunctional. That's not only the responsibility of the Republicans, even though they are particularly ugly in recent times.
Religion is a form of culture.
I am from Argentina, half Italian and half German (with close cultural bonds to both), and non-religious. Further I am very familiar with American culture, having visited on business a couple of hundred times, from coast to coast. That said, I find the United States the most religious country in the world, neck to neck with India. No Western or rich country remotely comes close. And the explanation lies in history: a land of people seeking religious freedom. So religious independence and separation of church and state is strong to this day. Nowhere else have sects flourished like in the USA, mostly XIXth century (mormons, Christian Science, etc). Germany is also special and different to the rest of Europe, and today's situation derives from the Reformation and importantly the bloody wars of religion (which didn't much touch southern Europe). Nowhere else do you have 2 denominations of roughly equal size. And what has kicked in on both sides of the Atlantic (and elsewhere) is secularism. People are giving up on all religions in droves. Increasingly larger and larger groups view of themselves as cultural christians, jews, etc. Yet religions will not disappear altogether. Some people need them to carry on with their lives. If 90 years of firebrand communist atheism did not stamp out orthodoxy from Russia, I suppose nothing will. Yet strangely just 50 years of marxism succeded in bringing down religions in East Germany to 10% of the population. The difference is remarkable.
Notice all the combatents in that insane war in Ukraine are all Christians and sickeningly rich Bourgeois. Like WW1 sending the workers and peasantry to their deaths to expand their loot.
Sadly their is no Hell for the Geriatrics and no chance of buying everlasting life. Maybe like the Jonestown Horror they want to take us all with them. They all live long lives like Pope Benedict ex Hitler Youth! Putin expects cannonisation as a direct descendent of Stalin being painted as an Ikon by Orthodoxy! Candles all the way!
I have never really understood Culture. Ther was an old lady who explained culture in one of those talk shows here in New Zealand who stated that culture was the icing on the cake and the cake was customs which I understand.
Mainly culture in my view is emotions long quickly sequestered by religion who monopolise emotions. Only they having humanity!
I read a paper once that argued (and showed statistics to prove it) that some of the differences we see today between the East and the West in Germany can already be seen in 1920ies/30ies Germany. For instance church attendance was already lower. So the basic religiosity in East Germany and Russia was very different when they met „Marxism“.
From what I have heard communism in Russia tried to stamp out religion there, but after some time they realized that they can use it to improve status of leader of their party, so that is maybe explanation of why religion stayed there. Maybe also fact that poor exUSSR countries usually rebounced back into religion after regime fell, with richer countries not so much it seems, why? Hard to say for sure.
I met an American woman in Germany who was shocked when I casually mentioned that I did not believe in God. No English person would even have raised an eyebrow
God doesn't believe in you.