[RESULTS!] Provent 200 Catch Can - does it stop manifold gunk?? 40,000km road test!
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 27 ก.ค. 2022
- Does the Provent 200 catch can ACTUALLY stop your manifold gunking up?? If you're thinking of buying a catch can to stop manifold gunk, this is essential viewing!
This is a follow-up video to a test I did at 18,000km on the same set-up, showing what's changed in the manifold after another 20,000km and how effectively the catch can's working at getting rid of oil. - แนวปฏิบัติและการใช้ชีวิต
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Thank you for taking the time for conducting the tests and for sharing the results. I look forward to seeing the other tests you mentioned 👍
No problems Tony, glad it was helpful! Yep I'll be just as interested to see what actually works!
Catch can isn’t for carbon catching as the carbon comes from the exhaust through the EGR. The oil comes from blowby that is vented back into the air intake. Another problem with a catchcan is if it becomes blocked or restricted hose size, then it will put pressure in the engine and can cause top end valve leaks. So be sure to have a catchcan that allows for pressure to escape if filter is too blocked.
I actually use a plastic bottle at the base of my catchcan hose so that if pressure builds in the catchcan it can also just vent out straight through the hose at the base.
The plastic bottle is clear and easy to see when fall. Just old plastic coke bottle. But if you had excessive blowby you could use a 1.5 litre bottle.
The next issue is the carbon and EGR. Many just put a resistor on the blue/black wire of the MAF to trick the EGR to stay closed and not allow any exhaust gas to be sent into the manifold. Now this means the combustion chamber runs with more oxygen constantly and gets a full burn at hotter always.
With the EGR it means that usually under 2000 rpm the EGR is open and the combustion chamber is reduced of oxygen and therefore burns cooler, but importantly it also needs less fuel to actually combust. Then when you throttle above 2000rpm the EGR fully closes and you get more fuel in with greater oxygen and therefore hotter and bigger combustion that leads to faster pistons movement.
Interesting that if you delete the EGR or block it, then at idle you I’ll find it actually idles faster. This is because the amount of oxygen is greater. So it combust faster and hotter. But in reality it uses more fuel to do this. But not more. The thing is most people think that putting a EGR delete improves economy. Whilst yes it does if you got carbon and oil sludge buildup and therefore your EGR isn’t working properly and also other systems in the manifold and even in the combustion chamber are getting dirty, then for sure, by deleting the EGR you will find better fuel economy and power.
However, you definitely are going to be getting your pistons running hotter. Now not because the EGR cools them down from blowing exhaust gas onto them. But because this exhaust gas reduces the amount of oxygen and therefore “explosion” taking place in the combustion chamber. You see even whilst cruising the highway the EGR will be open. The combustion chamber doesn’t require a big hot explosion to cruise. It just requires a small cooler burn, and this too reduces N02, to protect the environment.
So for all those who run their engines over long distances with EGR closed, you may actually be reducing the life of the engine in the lower end in a bid to try protect the upper end from soot and oil.
Most mechanics will tell you that EGR delete should be a off-road thing, as it improves engine response, especially in the lower end. But they caution against fully block EGR for regular driving, especially highway. Not because blocking the EGR is actually environmentally illegal, but because extra heat in the combustion chamber is not a good thing in any engineering book!
So if you want to do it, please keep up your oil changes and use a full synthetic if possible that will hopefully make up for that extra heat. Also, try get a scan gauge before you do the modification and see how it effects running temperatures.
Next but not least. Put a Engine Guard on your head!!! Too many people really got no idea how hot the head is getting and usually cook it whilst hammering in the deep stuff. The engine guard will send you an alarm to wake you up!
Good luck. The common rail non DPF Pajero is about the best diesel motor on the 4wd market that is reliable and powerful with huge torque and towing capacity. The EGR problem is the most common problem with them. Once you sort that and dirty fuel, you got half the problems done.
Lots of good points there Scott, thanks for sharing! I have not done an EGR block yet and I don't think I will. Yes the 4M41 non-DPF I have has proven very reliable! Cheers!
Good stuff .🤗 can't wait to see how the cleaner works . THANKS .
My pleasure Peter, thanks for watching!
Thanks for the followup. Very interesting findings.
Glad you enjoyed it! Cheers!
Great stuff - my NS SWB is at 160km and will be getting a full intake + EGR at 180. Your findings will 100% influence what brands and approach I go with here.
Brilliant! I could hope for no better outcome! Stay tuned for the next few!
Cheers,
Greg
Hi Greg, great videos mate.. I just wanted to make a comment on the Provent 200. It's an Oil Separation system designed to collect as much oil from the blow by gases as possible. I personally think it's the best in class as it is always collecting oil. I have one on my 2018 Pajero Sport since new and it does exactly what it's designed to do.
Thanks for the comment Steve. Yes it certainly does capture oil properly. The trouble is they are advertised as a solution to diesel manifold gunk which is why many people go shopping for them - even Western Filters describes it as a solution to the problem of oil mixing with soot and creating manifold sludge. Maybe the issue is what it's advertised as doing rather than its effectiveness at its originally designed task.
Great video straight to the point and informative. 👍
Glad you found it helpful. Thanks!
Interesting findings Greg.
Glad you enjoyed it, stay tuned for future video updates!
Well done Greg with your experiments. Looks like build up of soot will always be there grrr. Cheers mate👍
Thanks mate. Yeah maybe so but it will be interesting to see what effect EGR modifications have as that's where the soot side of the equation comes from.
Very good and honest review! Thank you!
Glad it was helpful mate! Please share it on your social media to help your friends and help my channel - personal recommendations are worth their weight in gold! 🥇👍
The plot thickens, great work
Thanks, stay tuned!
Interesting to see the results. I've got the same one on my Ranger. EGRs seem to be a real problem with quite a few cars. So, the mod makes it better but still a problem in the long run. Thanks for the vids. I'll look out for the next ones. Cheers PP
Yeah I was a bit surprised to see that much buildup, like I said at the end of the 18000km video I thought the catch can would have dealt with the problem completely. I'm as interested as you you see the results of the next test, still waiting for the product to arrive!
@@TheMusingGreg Thanks for the replies. I'd be interested once you've investigated it, whether you think manually cleaning them is still the answer and, if so, how often? I'm thinking it might still be the best option, be a nice addition to your videos, based on your experiences. Good luck! PP
Yeah my gut is telling me the same, as far as it's worth cleaning the manifold anyway. In the very first Liqui-Moly video I did mention that the build-up doesn't affect performance or economy at least on modern turbo diesels, but I still prefer the intake to be open and free flowing so the turbo's not having to work so hard to feed the engine the air it needs. But I'm also just really interested seeing if any of these products actually work!
I'll note your suggestion for the next video, thanks!
Cheers!
Very well explained. Well, I am also disappointed, that the manifold intake still is not clean.
Thanks, yeah I felt the same. I'll be looking at EGR mods soon so stay subscribed!
Thanks Greg, a lot have been waiting for your testing, thank you for taking the time and effort to do this for all of us to learn... I have been waiting for this to maybe install my catch can. I also just recently purchased a EGR blank with a 7mm hole, what's your thought on these along with the catch can ?? be interested in knowing your thoughts, this combo might sort this build up issue ??
Hi mate yeah sorry it took a bit to get it posted! When I found the sticky buildup I felt I needed to pull the upper manifold off to find how much was actually inside - and just as well I did!
I would get your manifold clean and then install what you've got and see how things go since you've already got it. It's easily reversible if you find it doesn't work or want to try a different solution like the resistor mod later. I expect you'll still get some buildup like I have, but with a smaller hole there will be less than I got.
I recall something about possibly needing a hole in the throttle body plate in the Pajero if you block the EGR to prevent throwing an engine fault code, but I don't recall if that was relevant if you had a hole in the plate. Probably worth checking that.
Good luck!
Great video sir. Very informative.👍
Glad you liked it! Please share on your social media!
Looking forward for your all tests outcome. I have 2014NX with same catch can and resistor mod since I purchased it (115kkm). Now it has 205kkm and I never looked inside manifold. Maybe I should one day but didn't notice any issues at the moment. My idea was that that (old) build-up should be now dry enough to get pulled in to cylinder but watching this video I'm starting to think that maybe moisturizing it by fumes would work better. So in fact resistor mod and no catch can could have worked better. But then what about oil collected in IC? Anyway... waiting for your outcomes.
Hi mate yeah I don't think the old build-up is going to get pulled through unfortunately. I've not tested it yet, but if I was in your situation I would be doing a physical removal and clean of the manifold now because I think you've got enough bits in place to prevent it building up again. But I'll have more data on that down the track.
Your thinking in your last sentence is along exactly the same lines as mine, which is part of why I'm open-ended as to how many more videos I might need to make as I want to test all these things out.
Cheers and stay tuned!
Hi Greg , been following your updates for some time now and really appreciate the effort you put in these experiments for us to see. There is another thing that i have been looking into lately and that is water-methanol injection. This has been a game changer in the petrol engines and especially in the DI (direct injection) engines as they were notorious for carbon build up on the intake valves. After installing the water-methanol injection it keeps everything spotless. and ofc it also has other performance advantages. However I've been thinking if this is something that could be a benefit for diesel engines too. For example having a water-methanol port injection before the EGR valve in the intake and see if it will help stop the soot build up in the intake. I assume if it does help it will probably be most effective when starting with a clean intake manifold.
Well that was my two cents, let me know if you have any experience with this and if it's any interest of you to try it out and see if we can find solutions to stop the soot build up while keeping EGR still in function. Thanks again and hope to see more.
Interesting thought mate. I don't have any experience with that, however I have previously thought about having something that would periodically spray a bit of Liqui Moly intake cleaner into the manifold. However anything after the turbo obviously has to be able to withstand boost pressure so I didn't think about it any further. What you've suggested could work, although I would be concerned about the methanol contributing to detonation in a diesel engine due to the higher compression ratio. It's also possible a simple water spray or Seafoam, in moderation, might do the job, but I've not tested this.
I ordered a replacement M+H provent 200 filter for my 08 Jeep CRD and it came with a conversion kit which relocates the vent spring from top of lid to bottom of filter. It now recirculates to the return hose rather than venting to atmosphere. Just a heads up for those who are expecting the old style filter and vent to atmosphere setup.
Thanks for sharing that experience. Yes that's one of the key differences between those versions. Venting to return is better environmentally than venting to atmosphere.
310,000kms on my diesel, Provent 200 from new. Intake is slightly oily each full disassembly, from turbo seal leakage. Incredible device, just change the filters once they get completely soaked, cleaning them doesn't really work. I hobbled the EGR from new FYI.
Cheers!
Great video!!!
Thanks Mike!
Thank u for ur honesty
My pleasure 😊
Good review.
Thanks, glad you enjoyed it! Please share on your socials!
Have the exact same catch can and like you I was expecting a better result. The emission systems before 2017 we're mostly garbage from what I've read, sadly. The diesel emissions saga continues which makes me want to buy a petrol. I'm very interested in what products you test and how you test them. Thank you 👍
Thanks for the comment mate, yeah it's a bit of a disappointment it didn't make a bigger difference, but at least it provides an interesting test bed to see if anything DOES actually work. Glad you're enjoying the videos!
Hi Greg, interesting video. I just had the same provent in my 2020 3.2 pajero after having the egr removed and cleaned, the intake butterfly was stuck partially open caused by the the build up of gunk in the egr. The car was not running right and the warning light came on. I was surprised that this happened so soon as it's only got 55.000kms on it and I've had since new. I don't go off road and no towing except for a small tinny and I do a bit of highway driving, I also use Fuel Doctor, not sure if that helps. Anyway I've had it sorted out, not by mitsubishi but by a very good diesel mechanic, not sure if warranty would have covered that but I'd rather pay and get it done promptly and properly.
Thanks for the comment John, it's surprising to hear that from such a late model vehicle. I presume you mean the EGR valve was partially stuck open, not the intake throttle butterfly? I don't think Fuel Doctor would have affected it; according to the SDS fueldoctors.com.au/wp-content/uploads/images/Fuel-Doctor-MSDS-20.12.16.pdf the vast majority of Fuel Doctor is a mixture of different alcohols which would help to displace moisture and clean oily deposits in the fuel system. I wouldn't expect that's going to make a significant difference to the composition of the exhaust post-combustion.
I'm in the process of doing the tests I promised at the end of that video, and (spoiler alert) in that video I'll be showing that I felt the need to check the amount of build-up on a 2020 Pajero with 75,000kms on the clock and was very surprised how much gunk there was in the upper manifold. I can well imagine the EGR valve getting a bit hesitant to work under those conditions.
@@TheMusingGreg Thanks for your reply Greg, will look forward to that test.
Hi Greg, thanks for posting these videos. I might be getting confused here but are you emptying the can at 7,000k and then 10,000k intervals? In one video it looks like you are draining 150ml of oil in one go which is a lot. I thought that the cans should be drained at around 3000 - 5000k intervals to optimise efficiency?
Hi mate, in the initial video I emptied it at 7000kms and then 10000kms later. In this video I collected 150ml of oil over 10000km in a combination of city driving and country towing before I emptied it. Because of the distances I travel when we're on the road, it's easy to clock up 5000-10000kms pretty quickly and I don't always have perfect conditions / time available to empty it which is why the intervals vary.
I don't think 3000-5000 is necessary though and I don't think it would affect the efficiency - any oil the filter collects just drains down into the hose so it doesn't really matter how often it's emptied so long as it's emptied before the whole drain hose fills up with oil and it starts clogging up the filter. For most people if it's done every 10-15000kms at the regular services it would be often enough. Let me know if anything's unclear.
Cheers,
Greg
You bloody legend. Thankyou
My pleasure mate, glad it was helpful!
I have a 2016 79 series Landcruiser with the V8 diesel. at 35,000 kilometers I installed a Provent 200. like your videos it definitely catch's blow by oil. Now after putting more than 50,000 kilometers with a catch can, carbon is still building up in the inlet manifolds as you describe. to me this seems abrasive and as these engines are known to wear badly due to dusting I'm concerned that dry powdery carbon could be as bad as dust. I am seriously thinking of removing the catch can and returning to a stock setup as this will stop the carbon being powdery and the blow by oil would help lubricate the inlet valves, besides most of the oil would get burned off as I tend to use this vehicle for long runs. for me I would rather remove the intercooler, egr valves and intake manifolds and clean it every, say 150k
Yeah you could well be right. I'm thinking of doing a test with no catch can and with the resistor mod stopping EGR soot getting through and seeing how that works out. I think the oil in the intercooler would still be a problem without the catch can but it would be interesting to see what effect that has so we can make informed choices.
Cheers,
Greg
@@TheMusingGreg You've done 35k without a catch can ,how much oil and crap do you think you've accumulated before putting on the catch can ...put one on when you buy it !!!
@@ktmkaos My testing has showed that a catch can on its own doesn't stop build-up. It just slows the build-up and changes its composition from oily and claggy to dry and gritty. Putting a catch can on when it was new wouldn't change any of that.
Have removed the Exhaust Gas Recirculation on a A4 B8 3L diesel. My intake is as clean as a freshly mopped floor despite haven driven 70.000km after the removal. Only thing I am struggling with now is oil going to the intake manifolds. Hope a catch can can reduce it a lot or even remove it completely.
Sounds a pretty good result! Was it that clean before you removed the EGR? This catch can certainly seems to be effective at removing oil from the intake so definitely give that a go!
Hey, just to note about the EGR , you can " remove" the codes with a custom engine tune. This means all you need to do is unclip the EGR valve and keep driving.
It is valuable,
Catch cans, Im reserved of oil in the intake, bad or good I dont know - however EGR soot is horrible.
Plus having a custom engine tune is perfect for the paj, they are absolute weapons. - before putting my Roof top tent on, with new rack and 33's I was able to do 0-100kph in 8.1 seconds. pretty quick for a mild tune.
Cant wait to see your next test with the intake with an EGR stop.
Thanks for the comment mate. Yes a custom tune is certainly a way to achieve this, though a more expensive one than the options I'm looking at. I tend to agree re the oil - I would rather see no oil in the intake and no soot, but with soot my feeling is the oil is a slight advantage as it keeps it soft enough to potentially be removed with an external cleaning product if used regularly
Stay tuned!
@@TheMusingGreg totally I would rather see oil in the intake than soot anyday . Oil still has a benefit just not when it's mixed with the problem ( spot) I a company called all Aussie tuning down on the Gold coast Qld .
with the EGR unblocked, diesel particle buildup is completely expected, you need both catch can and EGR block installed to make a real difference...or the OEM get thier act together, and run the EGR input after the DPF.....
Yes that's correct. I'm doing these tests because catch cans are advertised as being a solution to manifold build up, which clearly they aren't on their own. But your suggestion about taking the EGR source after the DPF is a really good one! I doubt it will get off the ground because of the extra plumbing involved, but it would certainly prevent manifold buildup and might be a good aftermarket project.
Hi Greg, my first youtube coment ever 😅. My idea is that your catch can doesnt hold much oil by design, it fills up to the out port and some oil goes to the intake, i would attach the under drain tube to a collecting bottle of some some sorts just to be sure. Cheers
Hi mate, welcome to the world of comments, great to have your input! That would be correct, except these catch cans have a drain port in the bottom. This runs into a long drain hose with a tap on the end, so it basically acts like the collection bottle you've described and has to be emptied periodically. You wouldn't want oil filling up to the output port because then as you said you'd get oil going back into the engine which would defeat the purpose of the catch can.
Dont know how much ml it takescto fill up, but just thought that the oil you collected was more than that tube and bottom of can capacity and oil level would be up to out port, venturi effect would suck some oil into intake
That's a good thought, I haven't actually measured the hose capacity but I think it would take a few hundred mls. But if it did fill up to the output port then what you're saying would be correct. Next time I empty it I'll check if there's any in the bottom of the catch can first.
Pondering the egr delete on my mq triton. I think my manifold is pretty blocked up, yet to pull it open and look. Really Interested to see how it effects yours
Cool, stay tuned! You might want to try the screwdriver test I did just to get some idea of what's in your upper manifold. Chances are it's pretty gunked up by now!
If your inlet it still coated with soot n' suff but less oil in it or drier than it mean the catch can is working as intented as it is trapping down the oil from the vapor and passing up the cleaner air into the intake. Travelling in outbacks with huge temp variation before day and night might cause condensation in these metal pipings which might create a moist enviorment at time which allows dirt and soot to stick to the walls maybe?
You're right mate that the catch can is largely doing its job of stopping oil, it's just that this doesn't actually solve the problem of the manifold gunking up, which is often what these products are sold to fix. It's possible the desert temperature changes could contribute to it, but just cooling down to 20-25 would be cool enough for the oil vapour to condense.
The problem is that catch cans aren't designed to prevent build up in diesel intakes. They were designed to prevent oil entering the intake of petrol vehicles and reducing the effective RON of the fuel. Diesel is much more oily and thus when it burns it still has a moisture content. Nothing will stop this from coating the inside of an intake other that stopping the exhaust gasses actually entering the intake. EGR deletes are illegal but are the only way to prevent the sooty build up.
Yes that's what this series is attempting to explain with hard data and tests. I suspect you're right, but I'll reserve my judgement until the final test results are in. Cheers!
Thanks man, you are 100% right
Great video and very in depth! Question from a completely non-mechanical guy though...is it worth me fitting one of these to my Ford Ranger (2.0 SiT engine)? They cost approximately 800 AUD where I am (South Africa), so the price is not insignificant. I'm trying to work out if there's actually a benefit to having one fitted that justifies that cost. Thank you.
Glad you enjoyed the video! I wouldn't bother for that price. You still get build-up due to the EGR carbon, it's just a hard build-up rather that soft oily build-up which you currently get - and while the cleaning products I've tested aren't very good, they're more effective on wet build-up.
If you're wanting to maintain a clean intake I think you need the catch can in conjunction with an EGR block / delete, which is illegal. Your alternative is a full manifold removal and clean every 50-100,000km or so. None are great options unfortunately!
Hope this helps!
@@TheMusingGreg ok great, thank you very much for clearing things up for me! Cheers
I have an 20 mr triton.Before provent 200 i had huge oil fume circulation which was topping arounf the ic hose and oil was dipping from the corner of my ic.After installing the provent they both stopped.Even cc doesnt stop carbon build up it definitely stops the shitty oil fumes cloaking in the components esp. Ic.Thats alone a good reason for me to keep cc on my car.
Yeah there's no doubt it catches oil nicely so I'd believe that, especially if the hose clamps are a bit loose. Might pay to tighten them up a bit if you're getting dribbling.
@@TheMusingGreg changed the hose o ring as well.Keep up the good work bro👏👏👏
Forbey4diesel does a video where a EGR blanking plate with a 7mm hole greatly reduces soot build up in the intake manifold.
Yeah thanks, I'm looking at EGR options in a future video. Stay tuned!
@The Musing Greg I'm very interested in what options you choose and how well it works out and I will be definitely following your feedback from what you do with your findings.
Cheers!
Hi Greg. Ive been on fence with catch cans for a while but this video solidified my decision. Thanks for you videos! Im not a mechanic but as a scientist, I really appreciate your experiments. It's very easy to get caught up in the misinformation as a lot of these devices are great at separating oil as they are intended but people are misguided in spreading assumptions that the gunk will be eliminated as the carbon needs the oil to stick to in order to build up.
I have an idea for a video if you'll entertain it. Does your Pajero have the ability to read EGTs via an OBD2 tool or a sensor?
Hi mate, thanks for the comment and glad to hear you enjoyed the video! I don't currently have an egt readout although it would be possible to install one. I'm always open to ideas for new videos of you're willing to share, although can't guarantee if I'll be able to do it but happy to hear the idea!
@TheMusingGreg I was just thinking that the build up is obviously carbon from the EGR, which ideally you need to 'eliminate' but the opposing argument (by those promoting catch cans mainly) to that is ...manufacturers have developed the system to utilise the EGR & cooler to keep combustion temps down and should not be modified. So my thought is, would this not manifest into higher EGTs?
So would it be a good video to get a 4wd that has an EGT gauge & see what temps you get at idle (likely when EGR valve is open most), low rpm, under load, etc. Then repeat the test using an EGR delete module. I know the legalities of using a module to test are questionable but thought it would she'd some light on the argument of EGR deletes.
That's a good idea! I'll put it on the list! Cheers
@@TheMusingGregsweet! You're definitely going above & beyond with these tests. There is just too much misinformation being spread...., so would be great to see something that will settle the debate & I've been sharing your videos cause you need more exposure. Good luck! I'll keep an eye out for the EGT vid mate 🍻
Not a blanking plate but a 9mm hole, I also used a bottle diesel power extreme in my Pajero seems to make better fuel economy
Yes a small hole would certainly let less egr through. Which product exactly did you use? Is it a fuel additive that claims to clean injectors and the post-combustion path, or an air intake additive which might do the intake manifold?
Hi Greg. I'm definitely no expert and haven't attempted to take the manifold system apart from my MY17 colorado, but are the inside of these manifolds smooth or a rough die-cast texture? Just thinking outside the box a bit, but if it was smooth or honed out similar to what they do with petrol engines, the oily residue may glide more freely.
Your thoughts, please.
Hi Colin, good question. The inside of my Pajero is a little rough which is how I remember the inside of the manifold on my VL Calais. I assume then most manifolds are the same.
A port and polish is often done to improve performance. I haven't got any hard data to say how it would affect build-up; my guess is that it would have to make some difference, but I expect it would still build up eventually so overall it may not be worth the considerable effort to get everything smooth. Really good question though, I'd be interested to hear if you ever do anything like this!
@The Musing Greg
Thanks for the response.
I'm probably not likely to do something like that. As you said, it would be a bit of work and an expensive exercise but boy, it certainly it quite a big talking point.
Really like your video, good work.
Cheers mate, glad you found it useful!
if you want to remove the soot you must relocate the pcv. Plug the inlet for the intake FROM the pcv then reroute it to your airbox BEFORE the filter. Delete the egr
Whoa no way! Sorry mate but that won't work. EGR delete I agree may well work, but reroute the PCV before the air box like that and you'll be pumping oil fumes through the air filter and air flow meter and gunking both those up in no time! I guess the air filter will initially act like a catch can and hold some of the oil fumes until it clogs up completely, but whatever gets through will just follow the same path as it does already into the manifold, so I don't see how that's going to help much. In any case as the video has shown, even if you take all the PCV oils out of the system (via the catch can in my case) the manifold still gets gunked up purely with EGR soot, so I can't see how simply plumbing the same fumes back into the intake in a different spot is going to change anything.
What is your thinking behind running the PCV fumes through the air box and how do you think that will prevent manifold build-up?
Do you have your EGR blocked off? The gunk in the manifold looks like soot not oil.
No I don't at this stage anyway, and you're right there's a good amount of soot in there. Given its technically illegal I wanted to see the effectiveness of just a catch can first.
Where are the new vids with EGR delete install and results from that!!! I cant wait any longer hahaa
I'm actually trying to do a bit more with the catch can still installed first before doing any EGR mods.
It is possible, that what you are affecting with catch can is not only the build up in the intake - i guess that is mainly an EGR caused thing, but you are most likely getting less carbon build up in the combustion chamber as you are getting less oily mist in the intake itself, but thats just what im thinking, anyway, good video.
Yes that could be true, it would be hard to tell for sure but you could be right.
Did you do something with egr
I haven't so far mate, because I've been testing other cleaning products. I need it to still generate build up so there's something for the products to clean off.
Try a low-pressure water injection prior to turbo.after maf sensor. Will help keep buildup from happening.
Interesting idea Steve. Could you explain how that would help reduce soot?
@@TheMusingGreg its steam cleans intake i sprayed my bt50 with water injection for 6 months i never checked it but fitted catch can as well at 107000, its bit tired now i just upgraded to dmax it has catch can but i think ill remove it and just do do egr delete ,
Did you block of the EGR?
No this was just a test of the catch can. EGR would be the next step, and from the results it seems EGR is really what needs addressing.
Are you sure you have the pipes the right way around? My inlet from rocker cover goes to lower connection of catch can and upper connection goes to manifold inlet tube. I get loads of gunge and dirty water in catch can, perhaps the atmosphere is more humid here. And no, l am not loosing water from the radiator.
I wasn't positive off the top of my head but I just checked. The instructions for mine says that the lower hose goes back to the air intake, ie cleaned air out, and the upper hose goes to the outlet of the crankcase i.e. the rocker cover dirty air in. See steps 9 and 10 on www.westernfilters.net.au/content/pdfs/wf_provent-installation_prov-08_mitsubishi-pajero_nw_d-id_from-2010_2020-1a.pdf
While the physical installation part of this guide would be specific for a Pajero, the plumbing of the catch can itself would be the same for any vehicle. You might want to check the installation instructions for yours and make sure that's correct.
@@TheMusingGreg Yes, you are correct, l looked on TH-cam after l left the comment. I used clear tubing and the tube from the rocker cover to the catchcan is dirty and the tube going to the inlet is clear, so it must be doing its job. I had an internal look in catchcan and there is a diaphragm and a spring valve which does not seem to work in either direction. I would have thought it would be best to keep the inlet and the crud at the bottom of the catchcan rather than letting it drop through the filter and blocking it. I am pleased with the functioning of my catchcan, the way it works now. Thanks for your reply.
how long do you change the new filter？
Hi mate, they recommend 40,000km however I've got a video coming on that subject soon so make sure you've subscribed as it may save you the cost of a new filter!
Your oil catch can did it's intended job, which is to capture blow by gasses and turn them from vapor back into liquid state. The "dry stuff" is carbon build up a.k.a. soot from EGR. Intake tube will still get dirty from soot build up from EGR unless deleted which is not recommended. This is obviouslya diesel engine problem. Petrol engines woulgave a clean intake manifold only with a really thin layer of brownish build up that looks like varnish. I've tried this on 30,000 miles after intake manifold cleaning and no issues
Yep you're correct. The trouble is that catch cans are advertised as being a solution to manifold build up, which from these tests clearly isn't the whole solution
For too much build Unwanted dirt in your manifold try to AGR valve conect after DPF filter and send almost clean exhaust gases to intake manifold and after that catch can have sense. That is what must manifactures of cars done but than there is no too much meet on bones for service net.
Can you clarify what you mean? Which side of the EGR valve is connected to the exhaust pipe after the DPF? I don't quite follow how it works as you described
@@TheMusingGregit shoul be conected after DPF filter but manufactures connect directly to exhaust manifold and that cloging intake manifold.
Oh right I get you. Yeah I can't see why that wouldn't work, although I don't have a DPF so couldn't be done for me.
I do believe that the catch can is doing the job it is designed for..... to stop oil or reduce it getting into the intake system, depending on how good your motor is.
Diesels will always create that black sooty buildup no matter what.
The only true way to stop both build ups in the intake is to catch can the oil side an block off or turn off the egr side.
You're probably right mate in terms of their original purpose. However these days catch cans are being advertised as the solution to manifold gunk, and as I'm finding that's not the whole picture.
@@TheMusingGreg People say and do anything when money is involved.
@@NoOne56488 Exactly. That's why it's so important to test those claims!
It seems to me that the catch can is removing the blowby oil just fine. The soot is from the EGR system and a simple catch can will never be able to reduce that.
Yes you're right it seems to be doing it's job. However catch cans are sometimes billed as being a fix to manifold gunk which is what this video is checking. I think the idea is that since manifold buildup is a combination of oil and soot, if you remove the oil the soot will just get blown through and wouldn't build up. What this video is showing however is that the EGR soot continues to build up even without the oil, and that's useful data to know.
Cheers,
Greg
250,000km thats a lot of kms. Have you used low sulphur low soot diesel? And catch can doesnt block ALL oil, some will still go by, i dont know if you can put a 2nd stage catch can, likely towing is causing more blow by? Interesting videos nontheless
No mate, we just use whatever diesel we've got here in Australia and when you're out back you just have to take whatever is available. We don't actually have low sulphur diesel here anyway even in the cities. I think the small amount of oil vapour that's got through the catch can has helped the soot to not get too dry, so it's probably actually beneficial having a small amount of leakage as it were.
So to clean it out, you’re going to put the moisture back. It would appear that for a diesel the catch can is a waste even undesirable.
Only temporarily to dissolve the carbon. But I agree that a catch can, broadly, seems counterproductive, especially if the EGR isn't dealt with.
We really need those petrol+diesel engines with diesel direct injection and petrol port injection. The petrol just cleans the valves perfectly.
Yeah petrol is great like that! Would be nice if a diesel had a slight petrol spray into the manifold every so often to keep it clean too!
The soot build up comes from the EGR, not the catch can. You have to do both for a clean intake manifold. If you only do one, do EGR delete. It works much better than the catchcan. For me, catchcan doesn't worth the money. If you block egr, all the soot will be blocked. Your intake manifold will have oil but clean, not oil mixed with the soot so its safe for the engine
Yep that's what I expect but it's something I'll be testing in future videos. Stay tuned!
Not me, I prefer the catchcan.
Not me, I prefer the catchcan because deleting the EGR is considered ILLEGAL
@@RichardJoashTan catch can just reduce the oil, not prevent and the soot still mix to the oil
@@RichardJoashTan not delete, just block it by a resistor at MAF sensor. You can take it out of the car anytime you want.
I'm considering to get a catch can for my HJ60 with the N/A 2H engine, i know that these cans are ment for turbo engines.
The reason that i'm thinking of this because every now and then there is a small amount of oil in the governor housing where the diaphragm is located and as i understand that is pretty normal for the 2H engine, i'm going to change the diaphragm soon and clean the housing.
Would it do any good at all or would it cause problems?.
Hi mate,
A catch can will work with non turbo engines too, it's just that you'll probably get less blowby than on a turbo engine on account of the higher combustion chamber pressures with a turbo, so a catch can will be somewhat less useful on a NA engine. But you'll still get some blowby on yours, so if your crankcase ventilation is plumbed back into the intake a catch can should still prevent whatever fumes you have from getting back into your manifold.
Whether that helps with the governor issue I can't say, unfortunately I'm not familiar with the governor on your engine. However I can't see it causing any problems.
I hope that helps in some way, sorry I can't be more definitive.
Diesel will Always have the "Sooty Powder" being that unless you can get a Complete Clean Combustion in the Engine, it'll be the bit of Unburnt Carbon Deposits. EGR Modification to stop it operating correctly is also not legal in Aus (as is the Modification of Any Emission Systems).
Unfortunate, but correct!
Mate you installed it after you vehicle had already done moon mileage ,what would be the result if you installed on day one ?
Probably no different to this. The only way engine age would affect the amount of manifold build-up would be how much blow-by the engine's producing. But these two videos th-cam.com/video/aKb1Nwewy6A/w-d-xo.html and th-cam.com/video/BXUnbrvVAwI/w-d-xo.html show the amount my car had was comparable to that of a new vehicle.
@@TheMusingGreg Your intercololer lines etc would be full of oily crap from pre catch can.Unless you fully cleaned everything prior to the catch can your results and your theory are somewhat flawed
@ktmkaos You're right that there would likely be some oil in the plumbing when the catch can is first put on, but remember this is the second video in the series. The first one after 18,000kms found the build-up was already dry. This means if there was any any excess oil in the plumbing it's no longer contaminating the intake air, otherwise the build-up would still have been oily.
Have you seen the Revive review th-cam.com/video/DFemreqYqUI/w-d-xo.html yet? I put a borescope camera down inside the intercooler after having had a catch can on for about 40,000km so you can see what's left inside, and also how much that affects the manifold build-up. There was still oil down there but it's not causing oily build-up in the manifold, so I think whatever's left in the intercooler is just sitting there without contaminating the air. And fair enough, if you had a smear of oil at the bottom of a ribbed intercooler, you wouldn't expect it to contaminate air blowing along the top of it.
Thanks for the input!
The reason EGR exists, particularly with diesel is to reduce NOX. It does this by reducing combustion temperature. My BT50 needed a new head (soft and warped ) at 200,000 km. Im the only driver, not chippped or ever overheated, pretty easy life. Mmmm long term consequence of no EGR ?
Hmm that's interesting. You're right about the purpose of EGR; whether it's the cause of your head problem I couldn't say. I would note though that the engine's going to get hottest under heavy driving, and my EGR valve at least only opens under light throttle conditions; as soon as you tromp it the valve closes, presumably to prevent sapping engine power when it's needed. I'm pretty sure most engines would work the same. So they would only reduce exhaust temperature under light load and temperature, not under peak load conditions. It might be worth checking if the BT works the same way; if so I'm not sure it would be the culprit, maybe just unlucky if the head issue isn't a common problem?
Always drill a small 2mm hole in the mechanic thermostat, lifetime solution for overheating warped heads and blown gaskets, my previous mondy mk4 2.0tdci had blanked egr from 100.000km onwards 0 probs till 350.000km when i sold it. Never had any probs wit the dpf also after the blanking. And yes of course i drilled 2mm hole in the thermostat, i do that on every car i buy.
What I've learnt from the videos so far is, might be obvious to most.
The catch is for oil period. So the manifold has less oil but the build up remians cause there's nothing to catch the build up carbon.
If there was a system for carbon collection, there will no build of carbon in the manifold.
So, if there was system for collecting oil and build up. The problem will be solved.
Or find the root cause of carbon and work on that to reduce it
Thanks for the summary, yep I think that's on point. I'm hoping the resistor mod in the forthcoming video will help deal with the carbon, because it's coming from the EGR circuit which the resistor mod will close off. Stay tuned!
I have a 2018 Ford F-150 with a 3.5 eco-boost engine…
Open the find a cure?
What I do is place marvel, mystery oil in my oil, and in my fuel, hoping that that would stop the viscosity of that old oil through the engine ...
Hi mate,
Do I understand correctly here: you're trying to using Marvel Mystery Oil to increase the viscosity of the engine oil (i.e. make it thicker), and you're hoping with thicker engine oil there'll be less oil getting past the piston rings so you get less blow-by oil fumes and thus less manifold build-up? Is that the idea?
I've not used Marvel Mystery Oil so I can't say definitively if it'll work or not, but from my research it looks to be about the consistency of regular engine oil. I know they claim it improves compression, but I'm not sure how it does that if it's no thicker than the oil it replaces. That being the case, I'm not sure how it's going to reduce the blow-by fumes. A catch can will certainly do that more effectively in my view, although my testing thus far suggests you need to get rid of the EGR soot to completely remove manifold build-up.
Let me know if I've misunderstood the question.
Cheers,
Greg
@@TheMusingGreg
Hello Greg ,
From marvel mystery oil actually is a penetrating oil thinner…
And I was hoping that it would break up and thin out bypass thicker oil…
Let me know your thoughts thanking no need for the oil can ?
Thinning soot viscosity.
Hi @gregorycoogle7621, thanks yeah it seemed the product worked more as a thinner, which is why I was confused.
OK so remember I've not used the product but this is just my analysis of the theory of how things should work: Manifold build-up is caused by two components - 1) exhaust soot and 2) blow-by fumes the crankcase.
1) I can't see MMM reducing exhaust soot in any significant way; maybe through helping improve combustion efficiency when it's added to the fuel tank e.g. if you had blocked injectors. But once they're clean they should stay that way for a while. So let's assume it doesn't help the exhaust soot side of the equation.
2) As far as the blow-by goes, if MMM thins the oil it will more readily get past the rings and make less of a seal, which should slightly increase blow-by slightly if anything. But again I think that effect would be minimal given you only use it at a 1:5 ratio max.
So on both counts, I can't see how Marvel Mystery Oil is going to help reduce manifold build-up in any significant way. If it's a solvent / thinner it would probably be good at cleaning injectors, unblocking oil galleries, removing engine sludge and other related tasks, but I can't see how its properties are going to reduce blow-by or exhaust soot, which are the two components of manifold gunk.
I stand to be corrected if someone has done objective testing, because again I have not so far and this is a theoretical analysis only.
Cheers,
Greg
@@TheMusingGreg
I don’t think you oil can is the solution …
I see the solution is a chemical remedy …
If you break up the sludge then you have no soot buildup!
That intern stops and solves the problem … any particles of the carbon buildup gets trapped in your oil filter.
That’s how I see things ?
The catch can certainly isn't stopping the manifold build-up, as I've touched on in the two catch can videos so far. I'm still getting manifold build-up, it's just dry and carbony now rather than oily. So I agree with you on that. I think you'd have to get rid of the EGR circuit to stop the build-up, so as long as you have exhaust soot going back into the manifold I think you're going to get manifold build-up. I'm not sure if there's a chemical solution to that problem unless somehow the composition of the exhaust is completely changed so it doesn't generate soot. If you can solve that problem you're probably going to be a milionaire!
The idea of manifold cleaner solutions like this is the chemical remedy you refer to - they attempt to dissolve the oil and soot and blow it through the engine, leaving a clean manifold behind. As these tests are showing, they're not that effective a lot of the time.
I'm not sure is what you mean by 'sludge' - can you clarify? I assumed you mean manifold build-up, but when you say "If you break up the sludge then you have no soot buildup" I guess you must mean something else.
If you continue to use the catch can and operation of EGR, your intake valve clearance will need to be checked more frequently! I have disconnected the EGR in my 4N15 and did not install any catch can, clearance is ok after 90000km. I don’t see a benefit from a catch can, EGR is the main source of soot build up and intake restriction.
Interesting! What's the correlation between valve clearances and EGR soot without a catch can? Do you just mean dry soot building up on the back of the valves?
Oil is used to lubricate things therefore it's not bad for the engine (even if a small quantity is going through the inlet manifold). The best way to clean the parts is to remove it and then use a brush with water based aircraft cleaning chemicals designed to remove carbon and other deposits...
You're right the oil vapour isn't an issue for the engine in those small quantities. The problem is that it mixes with the EGR soot which eventually clogs the manifold. A while ago I did the full manifold remove and clean, I used oven cleaner and a pressure washer, worked well. But what you've suggested would probably work well too.
Catch Can filters must be replaced in a service.
The filters are sometimes more expensive then the whole unit, that's why nobody will do it.
At the end of the day, catch cans are for people who look for problems and aftermarket sales targets them.
Yes that's what they recommend. Interesting though, as the 'filter' isn't actually a 'filter', it's a coalescence medium. It's just there to snatch the oil droplets out of the air and give them a surface to stick to, so it doesn't really 'block up' over time like an oil filter does. I tested this a while ago but needed to source some different equipment to prove it conclusively which is why there's no video on this yet.
I have seen tests conducted by a French fellow on TH-cam regarding crankcase pressure with a catch can. The Provent with a new filter has very little effect on crankcase pressure, something which cannot be said for other catch cans. The testing did not measure pressure rise with a dirty can filter though, so that would be something to keep in mind regards efficiency and pressure build up.
See the link below.
th-cam.com/video/fiAs52P7Qwg/w-d-xo.htmlsi=m6wbnD5o0bMOepOw
Thanks mate. I've got some tests coming on crankcase pressure using this catch can so stay tuned for those!
So 1 table spoon of oil per 1000km into the engine - is it so bad ? Would it be like lubricating the ring like a 2 stroke - there is a school of thought that stopping the soot is more important- as it is dry and abrasive and if it no longer stick to the manifold, it will go in your combustion chamber and sand your cylinder wall… legality aside blocking , reducing or filtering soot seem to be of higher importance
I am surprised no one has yet to come out a “ catch can “ for EGR soot - I would buy that instead a catch can.
You're right that the dry soot is probably more of an issue. If I had to have soot I would probably take oil with it. The oil isn't an issue for the engine or the manifold really, it's only when it mixes with EGR soot that you start getting blockages. Yeah I agree an EGR catch can would be a good idea if a way could be thought of to capture hot, dry, powdery carbon in a high temperature gas flow.
@@TheMusingGreg agree!
Maybe that build up is from the EGR system.
Yep it is which is why it only starts at the EGR valve. The question's been whether removing the oil via the catch can stops the exhaust soot building up without oil to stick it together, and it seems it still does. The next video in the series builds on this.
If blanking the EGR is illegal, programming it to stay shut would also be illegal. Either way you're defeating the emissions reduction.
Yeah you're probably right there Alan, I didn't think of that at the time so may just give that a miss.
try recirculating the trapped oil back into the oil pan
You can, and Mann+Hummel actually show that in a video. But I've already read a recommendation, from Western Filters possibly, that you don't do that as the blow-by contains water, soot and other contaminants that are better off not in your oil. Of course without a catch can they would get back to the sump anyway, but I guess collecting this would reduce oil contamination slightly and keep it clean a bit longer.
I placed my catch can low, the bottom of the head to be exact does pretty well without a baffle. you may want to look into aig oil seperator.
Why don’t you just check the output hose of the catch can for moisture and oil layer
That's a good idea actually, not sure why I didn't think of that! I've got the catch can disconnected at the moment for another test but I'll check that out next time I have it back in.
@@TheMusingGreg
So you checked it?
@@gheorghinacov6008 I haven't reconnected the catch can yet, it'll be off for another few months while I gunk up the manifold to do another cleaning product test.
I think you are missing the point of the catch can it prevents or cuts down oil going back into the intake and gets into the inter cooler which can effect running temps its never going to stop the carbon gunk building up from the EGR valve that's a problem really not associated with PCR Valve or line
That's true; but for diesels, catch cans are advertised as being a solution to manifold gunk. So this series is as much about finding out what doesn't work as what does.
I guess it's better to vent it out to the atmosphere? it's kinda legal in the philippines lol
Well better for the engine I guess, but not so great for the air we all breathe, regardless of what local rules might allow, it affects us all. So I wouldn't be venting it to atmosphere. Better to use a catch can or just let it run into the engine
I think u should change it every 30k so maybe on the 30k it was clean maybe the last 10k it got dirty ?
Nah if you check the first video th-cam.com/video/dSmd-hu3nu4/w-d-xo.html you'll see the oil and filter got black oil quite early. There are different figures out there on how long the filters last, but 40,000km seems to be the most common. Berrima Diesel www.berrimadiesel.com/provent-200-replacement-filter says they last 50,000kms
@@TheMusingGreg my bad
@@sphinx5101 Not at all, there's conflicting info out there which definitely makes it confusing. Cheers!
Well, that is disappointing. I'm glad I saw this video before making a purchase.
Research continues.
I agree! Stay tuned for updates!
Du musst dein AGR deaktivieren, dann ist die Ansaugung auch sauber
Ja das wird wahrscheinlich helfen. Vielen Dank!
Unfortunately you'll have to remove your EGR system to get a clean manifold.
Yeah it seems so! Cheers!
You must have installed it wrong- I have a $30 catch can that has completely stopped buildup. A catch can should have a cold-plate baffle, (NOT a filter) and should be placed in a cool-airflow area in front of the radiator.
Well I bought it as a kit specific for my vehicle and followed the directions, so it's done correctly as far as how the kit was designed. However you're right that a cooler installation point should help with oil condensation within the catch can, as my kit has the catch can quite close to the turbo.
I know some catch cans use a baffle however this design uses a coalescence medium instead (it's not actually a filter because it's not filtering anything out, it's just a surface for the oil mist to condense onto. But it's often called a filter).
That all said, the issue with the continued build up seems to be more EGR soot rather than blowby oil.
Mate thats EGR gunk not blow by. Anything before your swirl valve will be clean now but clearly you have not blocked your EGR. Its all well and good to pull your car apart but you should really know what your pulling apart first.
Hi mate, yes that is correct. Respectfully, I do know what I'm pulling apart and I do know I don't have an EGR block , in fact I mentioned an EGR block is something I may be looking at in a future video. I specifically did this testing on a vehicle without an EGR block because catch cans are advertised as being a solution to manifold gunk, so I wanted to check if that was right or not on a vehicle that was in 'normal' configuration for most users. Clearly from my testing, a catch can is not the whole answer, which is important if someone with a regular EGR-operating diesel was considering a catch can to fix manifold gunk.
Cheers,
Greg
Blanking the egr is the only solution for the carbon - gunk buildup
Yeah that's how it's looking to me.
You can please the avoid the pollution junky in you or vent it, no sud in your engine to worry about. Or you can get a water gargler let the sud, oil and vapors out of the crank case fumes. Choose wisely one not so legal.
Any suggestions for the water gargler?
@@TheMusingGreg use the catch can. Adapt the inlet with plastic tube to bottom inside the wster and the outlet free flow out. The water will catch impurities. Or use a water filter container (no filter) same comcept the water is your filter. Dump water as necessary.
That's just going to do exactly the same as what the catch can already does which is separate out the oil and return clean air back to the intake. It's just using a different method. How would the water gargler provide any benefit over the existing catch can ?
@@TheMusingGreg the results are cleaner plus some water vapors for the valves and intake
Ah ok fair enough 👍
Only way to stop build up is EGR blocking. These catch cans are not worth it in the long run and can case crack case pressures to increase if they're poorly designed or gets blocked. Then you will be in for a world of hurt as it can lead to oil leaks and blown seals. EGR blocking is the best way to stop build up
How i miss port injection, direct injection and EGR is the worst thing coming out from the greenies with all this insane and not worth it emissions controls.
You're probably right about the build-up and I'll be testing that in future videos. As far as the risk of blowing crankcase seals, that very much depends on the design of the catch can. Provents are well respected and designed with this in mind, so providing the filter doesn't block up or the catch can fill up through failing to drain the oil, I wouldn't expect problems.
I'm actually going to be looking at something related to the Provent and crankcase pressure in an upcoming video so make sure you're subscribed.
This test is not correct as they say 30k so after 30k filter was holding to much oil
There are different figures out there, but 40,000km seems to be the most common. Berrima Diesel www.berrimadiesel.com/provent-200-replacement-filter says they last 50,000kms
I would say most of your buildup is due to EGR
Yep you're right there mate. That's one of the things I was trying to work out - removing oil on its own definitely isn't the whole answer!
Vent the dog to atmosphere fuck it can’t be worse than mining for electric cars and chances of the police pulling you over a so minimal if it’s a standard car they won’t look under the bonnet if you run. Lifted 4wd your asking for trouble
We can't control what others do, we can only control our own choices, however small the impact. I guess it comes down to whether we want to all do our bit for the planet or not.
@@TheMusingGreg it’s all a a scam mate worked in oil and gas and working in mining at the moment I know which has less impact I’d rather nuclear and oil and gas all day than battery bull shit and a bit of oil vapour to atmosphere is f all
I agree one vehicle's blowby isn't going to make much difference. It's just of a million people all think that then it will make more of a difference. But I also agree there are much bigger polluters!