or maybe it's a rouse to get parasocial chatters to think they're actually smarter than they are/smarter than her, thus solidifying their parasocialtoxic relationship?
Something something horror from beyond the stars like refrigerators, anything from the deep ocean and anything else H.P. Lovecraft disliked in New England...
@@riskvideosthe one thing I can never forget about cdawg VA is when he was talking about him starting streaming and it wasn't going well at first and he thought it might be the first thing he ever failed at, because he has never failed at anything he put his mind to
You clearly don't know many engineers. A lot are pretty clueless aside from what they specialize in. I'm of the generalist variety; a bit less on the spectrum than many for better and worse.
4:17 - Lumi, literally the _ENTIRE_ story & setting of *_Dune_* is 100% based completely around space travel. That's what the Spice is and the whole reason why Arrakis is so important: If Spice production stops literally _everything_ about the multi-planetary civilization that Humanity has managed to establish totally falls apart, because they won't be able to navigate through hyperspace and the limitations of relativistic spacetravel at those immense distances just doesn't work to maintain a single multi-system civilization. Even things like the ways that the Shield technology in *_Dune_* works so that air can still pass through them, but projectiles can't makes their knife-fighting combat styles what they are, as well as why they can't shoot beam weapons at each other without it causing a nuclear chain reaction. Even the genetic mutations of things like the Harkonens are because humans have gradually mutated by living on alien worlds. It's FAR more science than just simple fiction on another planet. *_Star Wars_* is 100% a Space Fantasy, but *_Dune_* is absolutely a Science Fiction.
The focus is on intrigue and politics. She wants it to somehow be about the technology itself, which wouldn't retain more than a percent of the readers.
The shields in dune are still dumb. The average velocity of an air molecule is the speed of sound in its particular medium, so you should suffocate with one on. Also the beam weapon interaction is more dumb and both violates the laws of physics and would pretty much be the only interaction that matters in all military matters.
@@bort6414 That's just splitting hairs between Hard Sci-Fi Vs. Soft Sci-Fi - which isn't relevant as a counter-argument, as _it's still science fiction either way._
dune is not science fiction, there is as much science in it as flash gordon. The ecology in dune doesn't make any sense. The technology used in the universe is stupid. Ohhhh somehow almost all the water is gone on the surface of the planet? why not just mine some asteroids and comets, they are literally full of ice. You dont need ftl for that, just patient. You worry the water will evaporate again? Just use a fucking greenhouse. You can easily bribe the fremen and gain their fealty by offering them as much water as they want and a steady supply of food. the book is more philosophical and methaphorical, it is awesome, dont get me wrong. But calling it scifi is like calling 300 a documentary
I didn't want to bring up the accursed show, but the lemon has forced my hand. In the Big Bang Theory, Mr. Bazinga Man constantly makes fun of the engineer in the friend group as if he's a moron. Hearing this take from Ms. Engineering Background, I now understand.
Damn you Lemon woman... Philip K. Dick is like the premier Sci-Fi Author, he wrote "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?", and the story is about Rick Deckard and how the science advancements of the story affects him and everyone else around him (like the wife). It is a personal story, that happens to be in a science fiction setting.
So many words leave Loomi's mouth, and yet she says so little. I think the problem with how she's presenting her perspective here is that 1) everything she says feels disjointed, like she just kind of jumps from point to point without expanding on it, and 2) she's not defining her terms, or even thinking about definitions, like at around 4:30 when she's asked to define Sci-Fi, and she doesn't really have a good, concrete answer, or how she only nebulously talks about what "scale" means. I also feel like she's trying to put things too neatly into boxes; a work of fiction can have elements of multiple genres. Idk man she's just being contrarian for no reason. "It's not about science it's about a personal journey" what the fuck does that even mean? Is Ender's Game not a personal journey, while also very much being a Sci-Fi story? Huh?????? Now, because of this video, I hate all women. Thanks, Loomi.
If someone is being contrarian, the usual reason for it is to pat themselves on the back for being unique and special. Though I totally agree with your analysis of her ramblings 100%. She doesn't clarify anything she says, seems to be trying to exclude basically everything to the point that it feels like she's denying that Sci-Fi is a thing at all, and consistently contradicts herself throughout. Sadly, I've heard similar ramblings before, usually from people who don't understand what story genres are but think they do.
Lumi wants hard Sci-Fi. But she hates how repetitive realistic Sci-Fi is. Luckily, there's a lot of Sci-Fi in the Romance genre, so it's got the beep boops and the emotional connections between people. Although don't you dare call it Sci-Fi.
There is literary almost no sci-fi as she wishes. If I remember right I hate this kind of sci-fi and avoid it like the plague, mars is the most famous book/movie of the particular category. The whole Dune hexalogy is space opera at it's fines. The current most popular one that had a TV adaptation is Expanse it's sort of space opera hard sci-fi, with a ttrpg feel to it. I think the books were inspired by the authors TTRPG game they had. Lets say she would like the main books in revelation space, but the books is sort of a time paradox/loop. Where at the end of the books they send the tech for space exploration to the past so humans can get ready to fight the machines that exterminate all life in the galaxy. Or she could like Bobivers, basically budy comedy sci-fi, where a dude is turned into AI and sent to nearest star to "explore" the slow way and build more copies of itself with space stations to take in humans. But humanity wipes itself out while he is on the way there.
@@hurrdurrmurrgurr To me it seems Lumi's idea of sci-fi is that it needs to be centered on science fiction ideas. i.e. I, Robot is about sentient robots, Alien is about contact with extraterrestrial life, Space Odyssey is about a rogue AI, etc.
@@daznis the issue is that she doesn't understand the differences between the various subgenres of scifi, though I'd argue the subgenres themselves rarely have hard delineations and you can often find a "hard" story delve into "soft" issues, or have the issues in "soft" stories involve "hard" things. And really, what keeps science fiction from science fantasy? Again you have things spanning the line. You basically have chat showing her that in the clip (Hunger Games and Fallout have elements of SciFi, Frankenstien is technically SciFi). TLDR Lumi doesn't actually understand the difference between Sci-fi, Sci-Fan, and Space-Fantasy, let alone the various subgenres, but still wants to (autistically) have things solidly categorized.
Bruh "interpersonal conflict" is what drives many stories... it's what they call "Man vs Man", and the other options are basically just "Man vs Self", "Man vs Society", "Man vs Nature", and "Man vs Fate/Supernatural". That's every story ever (substitute "Man vs..." for "Protagonist vs... " if you want). I agree that a truly space-spanning story tends not to be very interesting unless it goes the space opera route, but that's a personal preference. For the sake of the gimmick, you could relatively easily make something that's basically Star Wars but with all the Force stuff swapped out with technology and "future science" that has an in-universe explanation. It's possible, just probably not very appealing to most people, because the more pressing concern is having compelling characters, competent worldbuilding, and an engaging plot. The strict adherence to "science" tends to be secondary. Even something like Interstellar, which follows the Lemon Woman's rules set forth here, is only as good as it is because of the focus on characters' relationships. Also nobody should ever be accused of enjoying Divergent. Some insults go too far.
Eh, first of all, man versus nature/supernatural isn’t interpersonal conflict. Also, there have been stories that aren’t really conflict based in hard sci-fi novels, like the original Rama story by Arthur C Clarke. They just tend not to be made into movies.
I wouldn't call it rage bait, so much as probably (90 to 95%) just engagement bait. "Tolkien is boring" has been used so much, it doesn't even work, no one is going to click on that thumbnail. "Sci-fi is boring" works much better, because there is just enough truth in it (try to read any sci-fi from N.K. Jemisin or Ann Leckie, I double-dare you) to make the charge sound plausible.
I am horrified to engage in a conversation with a woman who thinks she knows how to define something, but then fails to settle on any actual definition while talking about nothing ad nauseum… there’s a real life horror novella in the making
>lemon woman talks about science fiction >immediately starts of in space >ignores many of the other facets that fill the genre >talks about colors >holder of a STEM degree This is why Phase is the best organization. Nowhere else will you find someone who fits the stereotype of the engineer to an absolute tee (hyper focused on minutia, pedantic, collector of details), but somehow misses the plot entirely. Never change, Loomi. Also, for the obvious 'big angry' part of the comment: you can be science fiction and not go to space. In fact, long ago, there was so much space related sci-fi and nothing else, that it was its own genre until it just got re-lumped back into sci-fi. Steampunk is science fiction; even most fantasy is science-fiction, but fantasy die-hards will lose their minds if you don't pretend their concept of 'mana' or 'magick' is completely and totally separate from the idea of 'genetic superhuman abilities', i.e. science fiction.
Not a chance. Literature majors, remember? The conclusion was that layperson terminology was unhelpful and that most of what was called 'Sci-Fi' did not have science as a main focus of the plot or setting and therefore was in fact 'Space-opera' or 'space-fantasy' or 'techno-fantasy' and should thus be distinguished from hard SF like Red Mars or The Martian or Frankenstein where the science and its ramifications were central to the narrative.
I've read maybe 10-20 novellas or novels in the last decade, and I know shes missing or flat or not reading much of or any Scifi if that's her opinion. There alot of interesting stuff that raises interesting questions about the human or non-human condition.
@@Theonixco Yeah exactly. There are some great anthologies with very original stories and thought provoking ideas out there. The Hyperion Cantos is one of the greatest t stories I have ever read and it is mostly character development.
This is why Clio would never be in phase, she is way way too blunt to be cohesive with phase, and why she's perfect in a give no shits aussie Vershion.
so her arguement is that the setting of the story doesnt equal what the of theme of the story is. starwars is fantasy cause it revolves around magic cosmic space wizards even though there is spaceships and laser guns.
I think she would argue that Ender's Game would be sci-fi not because it is in space but because all the plot points involve winning a war using technology.
I would argue that Star Wars isn’t sci-fi. Just because they use space ships doesn’t make it science fiction, nothing they do in space or with their space ships deals with ANYTHING related to actual space travel. There’s no concern about distance, they just fly to different planets like they’re driving to the next town over. Hyperspace is just a hand wave, even in Star Trek, where they have warp drives and can go ftl, distance and time to get somewhere is still a factor (even at 10x the speed of light it would take about five months to get to the nearest star), they don’t ever do anything with gravity or weightlessness, they fly through densely packed meteor fields that don’t exist in real life… they might as well be flying magic chariots to magical lands around the stars. Science fiction, even soft sci-fi, needs to have SOME tether to science.
i would say star wars is more "science fantasy" it blends elements of both sci fi and fantasy. maybe a hot take but i would also say warhammer 40k is science fantasy too
One word rebuttal to this entire video: Hyperion. That four-book series is flat-out amazing, just outstanding story-telling - there's a reason Dan Simmons won the Hugo Award twice and should have won all four times the series was up for it (and this was back in the 90s, when winning a Hugo actually meant something). I will agree, though, that a lot of sci-fi, especially older sci-fi like DUNE, can be kind of dry, especially the "hard sci-fi" that insists on being strictly accurate, down to the lats detail.
That's... not really an argument, though. "Hyperion is great, therefore saying Divergent/HG aren't Sci-Fi is wrong" has about as much sense as saying "Crime and Punishment is great, therefore 50SoG is a deep psychological narrative." Hyperion can be great... and not be Sci-Fi. HG can be awful... and _also_ not be Sci-Fi. I believe (mostly because I have a friend who argues the exact same thing as Lumi) that what she understands as "Sci-Fi", is Lem and the like. Because it deals with hard science, and not some weird "hyperspace polarizations" that mean jack s., and could be easily replaced with "Magical Crystal of Elendil" and it would make pretty much the same amount of sense. Personally, I'd argue there are two definitions of SciFi - the OG old one, which is what Lumi seems to be talking about, and the new "Pop" one - which means pretty much anything dealing with technology that isn't straight up defined as "magic".
@@Xoruam I have no take on Divergent/HG beyond them being YA that just happened to port in elements, I would never bring them up in a discussion about Sci-fi (so that was kind of weird for me to see). I I absolutely agree that there are lots of Sci-fi "flavors" that make any sweeping take on the field kind of pointless. Fantasy goes through these things very regularly ("Is is this epic fantasy or sword and sorcery? Is Romantasy an actually sub-genre or just a marketing gimmick? Are hard magic and soft magic systems actually two different types of fantasy? etc., etc., etc..." ) I enjoy discussions about specific works vs. talking about a genre or field of writing, for all the reasons you point out above. You kinda have to approach each book on their own merits, in the end.....
If Mad Max isn't sci fi because 'muh tech regression' then neither is Planet of the Apes. If Hunger Games used laser domes to segregate people instead of giant metal walls, she'd say it was sci-fi. For Lummi it's about an aesthetic.
isnt the whole point directly connected with the biosphere of the planet? Btw the whole point of dune is that it needs to look magical, with a science undertone, so that the perspective of the messiah can work
Interpersonal relationships in media is more of a thing that women care about Sure, it can add to a story, but in dramas made for ladys the Interpersonal BS is the bulk of the movie
You act like guys don't care about it either, Games of Thrones is all about interpersonal relationships but in terms of kingdoms and land. Like even the most action movie you can tell aka The Matrix is all about personal struggle and being one with your self with OTHERS helping to realize your potential. Most anime are super boring without that "interpersonal relationships" like would you care about why pikolo and goku don't like each other without their hated for each other from ... a frendamy relationship?
@cimozjen2167 yea but in dbz the interpersonal relationships aren't the absolute peak main points of the story, the combat is where the climaxing is You also act like I didn't say "it can add to the story" and that in media aimed at women, the interpersonal relationships are the climax - they are the main focus. Ever watch a soap opera? Where as in something like dbz relationships are part of it, but combat is a very large part of the franchise
@@cimozjen2167 I agree, stuff like Interpersonal relationships is what makes my favorite science fiction media my favorite (along with worldbuilding, which I think is best dispersed through dialogue in said relationships)
@@VetriVadewith all due respect to DBZ and its author. His work is great and its beloved by many inculding me. That said DBZ is an absolutely flat, power scaling, turn your brain off, action fantasy. There is no substance there outside of combat and stakes being upped constantly just for the sake of extending the story. Im not saying there is no drama there but I'd say the spread is like 90-10 for the action. Once again, I do enjoy me some DBZ. I think better example makes JJK and Chainsaw-Man. JJK is a full on dark power fantasy that pulls in a lot of interpesonal story beats but its main focus is still action. Chainsaw-Man on the other hand is a dark drama that involves a lot of fantasy and action elements but its main focus are interpersonal relationships. Both are important. It depends on the story and taste
@@VetriVade The combat is set dressing for the character relationships. The Saiyan saga is about Goku's people returning, the Frieza saga is about a tyrant abusing lesser people, the Cell saga is about Goku and Dr Gero's legacy. The only saga where combat is more important than characters is the tournament of power and everyone agrees Jiren is a shitty antagonist because of it.
Scifi is the extrapolation on what future technology would create. It's Fiction based on possible (if possible realitic) Science. The best scifi ever written is Asimov Robot saga. The guy not only invented the concept of Robot and AI, before computers were even a thing, but he also wrote about the impact on society these robot and AI would have. With the current rise of AI his writing have never been so prophetic. THIS is scifi. These days, Scifi, just like fantasy, is an aesthetic choice based on vague popculture understanding on what the original works meant.
I'd probably define "sci-fi" as a fiction story with a "fictional" technological/scientific development that shapes a universe similar to our own (for instance: star trek is scifi because of the development of warp travel - instead of moving through space faster the ships curve space more, while something more fantastical like star wars is less likely to be considered scifi because the universe it presents is fundamentally different to our own in terms of its makeup - star wars has a magical "force" which isn't measureable, that being said there are still scifi concepts within star-wars and non scifi concepts in star-trek but it is "less" scifi than something like "Foundation" or Star-Trek.) I don't think the definition matters though, art is art and pushing boundaries regardless of whether a story is strictly "scifi" or just has "scifi" concepts within it doesn't really impact the quality of the story it tells - and I think the best scifi isn't about the technological differences between our universe and its fictional universe but instead about characters reactions and experiences when faced with these differences - a scifi story without characters would be pretty dull imo.
The sci-fi is just setting and world building, not what the story set within that setting is about. Good sci-fi is people centered, with good world building sure, but good sci-fi puts the personal stories of the characters within that world building front and center.
Scifi, science fiction, is one of the most vast and varied genres in all of fiction. Narrowing it to just space related scifi does the genre an incredible disservice.
The definition of sci-fi is technology that doesn't exist yet. Meanwhile, magic could be called science we haven't figured out yet. Alice in Wonderland could be considered sci-fi. When definitions are too loose, they lose all meaning.
Sorry guys and Lumi fans, I don't get it. Dune literally tells about the world of the future, in which the war with artificial intelligence ended and its further development fell under the ban, as a result of which people began to genetically improve themselves. The main focus of the story is on political games, but the scientific layer on which the events take place is huge. How can this even NOT be considered sci-fi?
All Tomorrows is technically sci-fi and it's far from uniform or bland. The issue is that for the longest time people are trying to copy star trek and have a beautiful, prosperous, united society. The reality is that the chances of that happening approach zero, so going into a different direction, with different human factions, body modification due to different environments, etc could be far more interesting.
7:39 That’s where supernatural sci-fi comes in Magic based on pseudo-science, folklore/myth, and theory crafting on the limits of natural laws as we know them is peak
Animatrix was an interesting watch back in the day, I always enjoyed the one about the runner who breaks a world record and pushes beyond his limits which begins to desync him with the matrix. Also I always had a soft spot for the one about the girl looking for her cat and discovering an anomaly in an abandoned building with a group of kids, the colours is that one are great and the overall experience of a “real life” glitch and how you would interact with it.
So like pure sci-fi can be pretty rare and typically deals with futuristic technology, such as what would be required for space travel. But unless that's the whole story, then you can just say it's in a sci-fi setting. Like, if Fallout being sci-fi is uncomfortable to you, then it's a survival story in a sci-fi setting. Lots of stories are like this. But in defense of Fallout specifically, I think it is pure sci-fi. I mean, the whole story is about the consequences of an Age of the Atom future (that was really big in the 50s) that only sort-of actually happened.
Okay she grew up on golden age hard SF. The kind where people expected the author to run calculations to determine how long it would take a ship accelerating at 1 g to move between mars and jupiter based on where those planets should be at the stated year. That's fine, but its not the only SF.
The term both she and chat are looking for is "Speculative Fiction." A lot of the best sci-fi is speculative, but it's not mandatory. -and to be fair, the root concept of Divergent is neat; it just doesn't do anything interesting with it.
before Sci-Fi, before High Fantasy.... it was all just 'Pulp Fiction'. Dune & Lord of the Rings are technically both Pulp Fiction. however, Lord of the Rings set the standard for High Fantasy. and Dune set the standard for 'Space Sci-fi' (however you want to define it).
I partially agree with her that Mad Max isn't Scifi, it's entirely based on existing technology in a regressed post-Apocalypse, but something like Fallout is both Post-Apocalypse AND Scifi. The Hunger Games I can't speak on because I've never read or seen it, but certainly the fact it's in the future seems largely irrelevant, so maybe it's not Scifi? But Lumi really seems to be under the mistaken impression that the only Scifi that is "Scifi" is the very specific subset of "Hard Science Fiction" that was common mostly in the mid-20th century. Even a modern 'hard' Scifi like The Expanse wouldn't be Scifi by her definition. In general, Scifi is absolutely an extremely broad "genre", just like Romance and Fantasy. There's a reason there's hundreds of different subcategories within the "Scifi" umbrella. But "being set in the future" isn't enough - nor is it exclusive, as Star Wars is undeniably Scifi-Fantasy but is explicitly set in the past, not to mention any other Scifi story that takes place in a fictional advanced Space Past, like Halo's Forerunner stories. The understood definition of Scifi, really, is stories where a setting is different to our own through _some_ notable change in technology or the like that is strictly within the realms of science (fictional or otherwise) such as FTL travel, Alien Visitors, Sentient Robots, Time Travel et al, rather than the difference being purely magical or fundamentally fantastical, IE Fantasy. That's why Star Wars, with FTL drives and the Force, is both, but Star Trek, where all the "magic" is accepted to simply be science we don't _yet_ understand, is decidely Scifi. This is also why Alternate History is often considered Scifi even if there's no elements like Aliens or Time Travel, because it's just "What if real world, but different?"
Lumi doesn't actually understand the difference between Sci-fi, Sci-Fan, and Space-Fantasy, let alone the various subgenres, or that things can have genre crossover, but still wants to have things solidly categorized. I find it funny that she views everyone in chat as wanting slop when for her sci-fi has to be in space.
It sounds like lumi has a problem with space opera rather than sci fi but also only sees space opera as the one true Sci fi. This is why lumi is our favorite
Cultural classic milestones of the genre like Terminator, Planet of the Apes, Alien, The Matrix, Back to the Future, and others went through a revolving door of being considered sci-fi and then not, like, a minimum of three times over the course of 12 minutes. I hope she never leaves entertainment for the sake of the patience and mental well-being of the fellow engineers that would have to suffer the constant contradictions and cognitive dissonance in whatever project they were working on.
Indeed, Sci-fi has to include advances in science as the main catalyst for the story. For this reason I do not consider Star Wars sci-fi. Scope doesn't matter. Space doesn't matter. Science does.
@@JohnDoe11VII It isn't. What does the movies scientifically explain about the Death Star? Only that the core has importance, but not how. What does the movies focus on more, the building of the Death Star or The Force? Sci-fi doesn't have magic. SW is fantasy.
Something can be sci fi without telling a story that needs to be sci fi. Its like how you can have a story set in new york without the statue of liberty.
I think the cringey part is when she decides to react to the single chat comment that agrees with her instead of everyone else who is saying she's wrong. The definition of selective reading.
With regards to making space sci-fi interesting to read, there are plenty of books that make it work that aren't "fantasy" by Lumi's definition. (And by fantasy, I mean leaning more towards hard scifi, where mostly real science is used or extrapolated from, differentiated from soft scifi, where the technology is advanced enough that it can be viewed as magic.) Ender's Game (the first book at least), leans more towards the harder side, with the exception of some technology (notably their communication system, which is extrapolated from reality, and their weapons, which can also be hypothesized from real physics), and yet it has compelling characterization and a deep story. The Expanse leans even further into realistic science depictions, but I haven't read it yet, so I can't comment on how effectively the storytelling side is. (The large numbers of fans seem to indicate it's decent enough, at least. But depending on how futuristic you want to make your technology, at some point you'll have to step out of the realms of extrapolating from real science, because otherwise you wouldn't be able to delve into some of the other philosophical questions that only make sense in a scifi setting. Believe it or not, Star Trek (up to around DS9 or so) is surprisingly grounded in real physics, though they throw in unexplained science to spice up the story and introduce new concepts. The Culture series, by Iain Banks also steps into the fantastical, but while some technologies are glossed over (like FTL travel), it allows for focus on other technologies that are grounded in reality (their use of AI and the ethics surrounding that). One can make a similar case for Vernor Vinge's Zones of Thought series, which changes the rules of the universe to facilitate his story. But even if you stick with the "dry" approach to the story, with less of a focus on characterization and more of a focus on the science, you can still end up with an interesting story. Stephen Baxter's Xeelee Sequence and Manifold series are both grounded in hard scifi, and are quite dry reads, but are still quite interesting. Not every story needs to be character driven to be good. Also note that much of the technology that is casually tossed into scifi is based on real-world research that has become such common knowledge that we take it for granted. (And admittedly water-down, as fewer writers look at the original concepts and just base their works on pre-established fiction.) Wormholes are a good example, as there have been many science papers devoted to that realm of study. Also, some of those concepts aren't always completely valid, as new research has disproven old theories, but they've become ingrained into fiction to such a degree that they have remained and become fantastical according to our current scientific knowledge. Again, wormholes, which we've come to realize would work quite differently from what we hypothesized even 30 years ago. In the end, I'd argue that Fantasy would be the genre that tends to be more "boring" and "same-y," simply because well written scifi gives such a great variety of material to work with, and questions to answer. The challenge is writing it well, and actually putting deliberate thought into how the science aspects are incorporated into the story, something that all the works I've mentioned here do well. (The ones I've read, at least.)
She said dune isn't "space fantasy" that is different from science fiction, example. Pretty much everything by Asimov is science fiction. Pretty much everything referred to as "modern military sci-fi" is space fantasy.
Maybe Lumi tryin to say sometimes you could tell the same story in different genres,like for instance we have Robocop which is cyberpunk,but you could also tell it in a fantasy setting (think D&d) but the main character is now a warforged paladin.....
You know I ragged on this without context on Twitter but I'd rather throw Dune away than claim The Hunger Games as a sci-fi series. And to be fair her point about "it needs to have science" is a valid one and I wholeheartedly agree with it - but I'm a sci fi writer and obsessive sci-fi nerd so I'm probably biased in that regard. Disqualifying anything that throws personal journeys out is a certified Lumi take though.... Also also, the first person who tries to qualify the *space opera* that is Star Wars as a sci-fi series in my replies is getting shipped off to Siberia. Don't you dare.
If you're getting rid of Dune because it's science is fantastical then you need to get rid of Star Trek and most of the genre as well. The Hunger Games has nothing of substance we don't have today (or when it was written to be more correct) except for a few structural political changes whereas Dune has interstellar travel, forcefields and societies based off genetic manipulation. Once you're through with the disqualifiers Lumi tacks on to decide what is not sci-fi all you're left with are thesis papers on string theory for science fiction.
In the beginning of Sci Fi as a genere there was distinct emphasis on the scientific aspect (e.g. how society would look like if we had discovered this or that machine). The science was used to extrapolate from current knowledge what was possible to do in the (far) future with current scientific discoveries (e.g. laser, some kind of theoretical way to traverse traverse space, etc.). Later this part of Sci Fi was categorized as a Hard Sci Fi. I'm not sure what is definition of general Sci Fi now, but it seems to be that anything that uses Sci Fi gadgets gets this label automatically. I don't think Hunger Games would be Sci Fi just because it happens in the future because they don't use gadgets that much and it seems to be places in near future. It's more about how a society can change, but without any scientific impulse (just strait up extrapolation of the divide of people to the haves, and have-nots). Still there is Foundation series of Isaac Asimov that is pretty close to that description (though it happens in the far future) and I would argue that it is one of the best Sci Fi series written. I think that the difference there is that series assumes that social science got to a point where it's possible to predict large social movements like raise and fall of empires on the macro scale and while it didn't give characters ability to avoid tragedies, it let them to prepare for them and lessen the negative aspects of the future. It has the vastness of space, but it is concerned mostly with the politics of the setting and how characters resolve current crisis using political mechanisms. Still doesn't pass the Lemon woman test, but I like it.
Not only Dune is clearly a sci-fi, but it's also on a surprisingly hardish side of it. Most of things there deliberately made look bizarre, but fundamentally aren't that impossible. And even more magical stuff like FTL is more grounded, they even still use nukes as a "no u" button. Even their space wizards are possibly least wizardly in a history of space wizardry. And then there's ecology which is just Herbert's main specialty and done with great care. There's just no way to spin Dune as non sci-fi without being laughed out of the room. And concerning hunger games, I don't really know. I haven't really watched it, but from tidbits I've seen I can't really remember anything that technological tbh. Like, maybe a camera drones flying around? Doesn't really cut it for me. I dunno, were there at least flying cars or something?
Dune is classic Science Fiction because it fully extrapolates from the genesis "what if" that so many of the old Sci-Fi stories did... "What if we lived on a planet that was one gigantic desert?" And everything flows from there. However because of the scope, I think that it better fits into the "science fantasy" genre because modern sci-fi does not hand itself the same way that it did generations ago.
She seems to have forgotten the fiction part of science fiction
Lumi in a nutshell: She's smart enough to say dumb things regularly.
or maybe it's a rouse to get parasocial chatters to think they're actually smarter than they are/smarter than her, thus solidifying their parasocialtoxic relationship?
@@housemana*ruse, but yes
@@razorknight92 She's not just playing 3D chess, she's playing N-dimensional hypergeometric non-Euclidean backgammon.
@@grafzeppelin4069 ...underwater. lolz
This is one of the things I genuinely enjoy about her. I find it entertaining and humorous.
Lumi (woman) doesn't realize that the realistic sifi she wants turns into cosmic horror very quickly.
Yeah, that’s just Warhammer 40K
Something something horror from beyond the stars like refrigerators, anything from the deep ocean and anything else H.P. Lovecraft disliked in New England...
I am constantly shocked every time lumis engineer background gets brought up
The lemon woman is a repeated reminder that a degree is just an expensive piece of paper.
@@ffwast yeah. I was surprised CDawg had a background in engineering too. You wouldn't guess these goofballs would.
Did we ever learn what kind of engineer lumi is?
@@riskvideosthe one thing I can never forget about cdawg VA is when he was talking about him starting streaming and it wasn't going well at first and he thought it might be the first thing he ever failed at, because he has never failed at anything he put his mind to
@@ramelband Basket weaving
Anything explained by an engineer that can't park a truck and forgets the difference between a helicopter and a plane rings hollow to me
You clearly don't know many engineers. A lot are pretty clueless aside from what they specialize in. I'm of the generalist variety; a bit less on the spectrum than many for better and worse.
Why would an engineer need to be able to park a truck?
@seneca983 When they need to stop driving it?
@@asumazilla I don't think engineers (generally) need to drive trucks at all.
Didn't she apply to Lockheed Martin????
This clip is a lot funnier if you slowly start decreasing the volume around a minute in and then close the tab.
Slow it to 75% so she sounds drunk.
@Leastmachine you're right. Doing both is extremely funny.
Ah, married for 10 years experience.
lol
99.9% of the time when people argue about the definitions of genres is just an excuse to exclude things they don't like, lmao
This clip turned me into a mysoginist.
Average reaction after 5 minutes of lemon.
Women ☕️
Based. She sounds dumb af.
Yeah lumi does that
This clip turned me on
4:17 - Lumi, literally the _ENTIRE_ story & setting of *_Dune_* is 100% based completely around space travel.
That's what the Spice is and the whole reason why Arrakis is so important: If Spice production stops literally _everything_ about the multi-planetary civilization that Humanity has managed to establish totally falls apart, because they won't be able to navigate through hyperspace and the limitations of relativistic spacetravel at those immense distances just doesn't work to maintain a single multi-system civilization.
Even things like the ways that the Shield technology in *_Dune_* works so that air can still pass through them, but projectiles can't makes their knife-fighting combat styles what they are, as well as why they can't shoot beam weapons at each other without it causing a nuclear chain reaction. Even the genetic mutations of things like the Harkonens are because humans have gradually mutated by living on alien worlds. It's FAR more science than just simple fiction on another planet.
*_Star Wars_* is 100% a Space Fantasy, but *_Dune_* is absolutely a Science Fiction.
Nah it's space fantasy
The focus is on intrigue and politics. She wants it to somehow be about the technology itself, which wouldn't retain more than a percent of the readers.
The shields in dune are still dumb. The average velocity of an air molecule is the speed of sound in its particular medium, so you should suffocate with one on. Also the beam weapon interaction is more dumb and both violates the laws of physics and would pretty much be the only interaction that matters in all military matters.
@@bort6414 That's just splitting hairs between Hard Sci-Fi Vs. Soft Sci-Fi - which isn't relevant as a counter-argument, as _it's still science fiction either way._
dune is not science fiction, there is as much science in it as flash gordon. The ecology in dune doesn't make any sense. The technology used in the universe is stupid.
Ohhhh somehow almost all the water is gone on the surface of the planet? why not just mine some asteroids and comets, they are literally full of ice. You dont need ftl for that, just patient. You worry the water will evaporate again? Just use a fucking greenhouse.
You can easily bribe the fremen and gain their fealty by offering them as much water as they want and a steady supply of food.
the book is more philosophical and methaphorical, it is awesome, dont get me wrong. But calling it scifi is like calling 300 a documentary
Jurasic park is Sci-Fi
Also it's part of the horror genre.
It features drama between people, therefore not sci-fi according to lemon logic.
@@hurrdurrmurrgurrSci-Fi is when no people…
@@williethenerfherder2193 It was to 7 year old me.
So, to lumi sci-fi is when you write an essay about a laser rifle and how it's being used to colonize the smarfendop planet
Xeelee Sequence
And that's why it is based, the opposite of this 🍋
I didn't want to bring up the accursed show, but the lemon has forced my hand.
In the Big Bang Theory, Mr. Bazinga Man constantly makes fun of the engineer in the friend group as if he's a moron. Hearing this take from Ms. Engineering Background, I now understand.
It's cute how she tries to put a single label on a box containing multiple things.
Damn you Lemon woman... Philip K. Dick is like the premier Sci-Fi Author, he wrote "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?", and the story is about Rick Deckard and how the science advancements of the story affects him and everyone else around him (like the wife). It is a personal story, that happens to be in a science fiction setting.
5:20 Gaslight, 6:24 Gatekeep,
10:24 Girlboss
So many words leave Loomi's mouth, and yet she says so little. I think the problem with how she's presenting her perspective here is that 1) everything she says feels disjointed, like she just kind of jumps from point to point without expanding on it, and 2) she's not defining her terms, or even thinking about definitions, like at around 4:30 when she's asked to define Sci-Fi, and she doesn't really have a good, concrete answer, or how she only nebulously talks about what "scale" means. I also feel like she's trying to put things too neatly into boxes; a work of fiction can have elements of multiple genres. Idk man she's just being contrarian for no reason. "It's not about science it's about a personal journey" what the fuck does that even mean? Is Ender's Game not a personal journey, while also very much being a Sci-Fi story? Huh?????? Now, because of this video, I hate all women. Thanks, Loomi.
Maybe that's her master plan. To make us all misogynistic. And we are falling right into it. Diabolical
TRUE!
The average Lemon woman experience.
If someone is being contrarian, the usual reason for it is to pat themselves on the back for being unique and special. Though I totally agree with your analysis of her ramblings 100%. She doesn't clarify anything she says, seems to be trying to exclude basically everything to the point that it feels like she's denying that Sci-Fi is a thing at all, and consistently contradicts herself throughout. Sadly, I've heard similar ramblings before, usually from people who don't understand what story genres are but think they do.
Lumi wants hard Sci-Fi. But she hates how repetitive realistic Sci-Fi is. Luckily, there's a lot of Sci-Fi in the Romance genre, so it's got the beep boops and the emotional connections between people. Although don't you dare call it Sci-Fi.
Shes a woman. She always wants the opposite of what she says.
There is literary almost no sci-fi as she wishes. If I remember right I hate this kind of sci-fi and avoid it like the plague, mars is the most famous book/movie of the particular category. The whole Dune hexalogy is space opera at it's fines. The current most popular one that had a TV adaptation is Expanse it's sort of space opera hard sci-fi, with a ttrpg feel to it. I think the books were inspired by the authors TTRPG game they had. Lets say she would like the main books in revelation space, but the books is sort of a time paradox/loop. Where at the end of the books they send the tech for space exploration to the past so humans can get ready to fight the machines that exterminate all life in the galaxy. Or she could like Bobivers, basically budy comedy sci-fi, where a dude is turned into AI and sent to nearest star to "explore" the slow way and build more copies of itself with space stations to take in humans. But humanity wipes itself out while he is on the way there.
Even hard sci-fi is about people living in these future scenarios. Lumi's idea of sci-fi is a list of readouts from the voyager space probe.
@@hurrdurrmurrgurr To me it seems Lumi's idea of sci-fi is that it needs to be centered on science fiction ideas. i.e. I, Robot is about sentient robots, Alien is about contact with extraterrestrial life, Space Odyssey is about a rogue AI, etc.
@@daznis the issue is that she doesn't understand the differences between the various subgenres of scifi, though I'd argue the subgenres themselves rarely have hard delineations and you can often find a "hard" story delve into "soft" issues, or have the issues in "soft" stories involve "hard" things.
And really, what keeps science fiction from science fantasy? Again you have things spanning the line.
You basically have chat showing her that in the clip (Hunger Games and Fallout have elements of SciFi, Frankenstien is technically SciFi).
TLDR Lumi doesn't actually understand the difference between Sci-fi, Sci-Fan, and Space-Fantasy, let alone the various subgenres, but still wants to (autistically) have things solidly categorized.
Suddenly, I'm getting extremely angry.
Bruh "interpersonal conflict" is what drives many stories... it's what they call "Man vs Man", and the other options are basically just "Man vs Self", "Man vs Society", "Man vs Nature", and "Man vs Fate/Supernatural". That's every story ever (substitute "Man vs..." for "Protagonist vs... " if you want). I agree that a truly space-spanning story tends not to be very interesting unless it goes the space opera route, but that's a personal preference. For the sake of the gimmick, you could relatively easily make something that's basically Star Wars but with all the Force stuff swapped out with technology and "future science" that has an in-universe explanation. It's possible, just probably not very appealing to most people, because the more pressing concern is having compelling characters, competent worldbuilding, and an engaging plot. The strict adherence to "science" tends to be secondary. Even something like Interstellar, which follows the Lemon Woman's rules set forth here, is only as good as it is because of the focus on characters' relationships.
Also nobody should ever be accused of enjoying Divergent. Some insults go too far.
Eh, first of all, man versus nature/supernatural isn’t interpersonal conflict.
Also, there have been stories that aren’t really conflict based in hard sci-fi novels, like the original Rama story by Arthur C Clarke. They just tend not to be made into movies.
Ah, so Dune? The book is actually way more focused on the technology, geology and biology of Arrakis, and is actually very intelligent about it
This has to be rage bait, right?
Nah shes just a famale.
no, she's just female
I wouldn't call it rage bait, so much as probably (90 to 95%) just engagement bait. "Tolkien is boring" has been used so much, it doesn't even work, no one is going to click on that thumbnail. "Sci-fi is boring" works much better, because there is just enough truth in it (try to read any sci-fi from N.K. Jemisin or Ann Leckie, I double-dare you) to make the charge sound plausible.
Lumi's entire character is being rage bait.
No unfortunately some people criticize things without first understanding what they are or why they are enjoyed.
Genre police never heard of space operas
I am horrified to engage in a conversation with a woman who thinks she knows how to define something, but then fails to settle on any actual definition while talking about nothing ad nauseum… there’s a real life horror novella in the making
Disrespectfully disagree with the yellow woman.
She calls herself a trad for a reason
>lemon woman talks about science fiction
>immediately starts of in space
>ignores many of the other facets that fill the genre
>talks about colors
>holder of a STEM degree
This is why Phase is the best organization. Nowhere else will you find someone who fits the stereotype of the engineer to an absolute tee (hyper focused on minutia, pedantic, collector of details), but somehow misses the plot entirely. Never change, Loomi.
Also, for the obvious 'big angry' part of the comment: you can be science fiction and not go to space. In fact, long ago, there was so much space related sci-fi and nothing else, that it was its own genre until it just got re-lumped back into sci-fi. Steampunk is science fiction; even most fantasy is science-fiction, but fantasy die-hards will lose their minds if you don't pretend their concept of 'mana' or 'magick' is completely and totally separate from the idea of 'genetic superhuman abilities', i.e. science fiction.
Instantly transported back to my 401 English class where we spent a full week on this exact debate.
What was the conclusion? Hopefully better than the L take by lemon woman here.
Not a chance. Literature majors, remember?
The conclusion was that layperson terminology was unhelpful and that most of what was called 'Sci-Fi' did not have science as a main focus of the plot or setting and therefore was in fact 'Space-opera' or 'space-fantasy' or 'techno-fantasy' and should thus be distinguished from hard SF like Red Mars or The Martian or Frankenstein where the science and its ramifications were central to the narrative.
A woman of many opinions and none of them are right.
Do women just lose 50 iq points selectively?
At least.
On the regular
IQ means next to nothing, yet the fact you are taking this ragebait seriously speaks volumes about how low yours is :")
"Fallout isn't sci-fi"
Phase Disconnect bringing you only the hottest lava takes.
She is really just admitting she hasn't read much.
Please be patent, she is a woman.
Other than vampire smut books
I've read maybe 10-20 novellas or novels in the last decade, and I know shes missing or flat or not reading much of or any Scifi if that's her opinion. There alot of interesting stuff that raises interesting questions about the human or non-human condition.
@@Theonixco Yeah exactly. There are some great anthologies with very original stories and thought provoking ideas out there. The Hyperion Cantos is one of the greatest t stories I have ever read and it is mostly character development.
she's so cooked bros :(
Juiced lemon
Welcome to Loombi's radical skedaddical magical yapping power hour.
It’s all amazing to me how smart people loop right back around to being stupid just because of their ego .
Fachidiot is the term I believe.
it's amazing how you think she's not ragebait farming and is actually giving a take. sounds like your ego is the thing blind here lol
Seems to me Lumi's ideal science fiction novel is just a physics textbook.
Lumi: I want my sci-fi all about space, and technology and all that science stuff!
Also Lumi: most space-sci-fi is boring
I love this woman
she basically contradicts herself every 3 minutes. no consistency.
Check Clio's comment at 10:16 lol
Clio being based as usual
This is why Clio would never be in phase, she is way way too blunt to be cohesive with phase, and why she's perfect in a give no shits aussie Vershion.
My Aussie Tomboy Can't Be This Cute! Oi! Oi! Oi!
It's just the grandfather of most sci-fi along with Starship Troopers, no big deal.
so her arguement is that the setting of the story doesnt equal what the of theme of the story is. starwars is fantasy cause it revolves around magic cosmic space wizards even though there is spaceships and laser guns.
And she's wrong. Science Fiction is a setting descriptor, not a theme.
I think she would argue that Ender's Game would be sci-fi not because it is in space but because all the plot points involve winning a war using technology.
Star wars is science fantasy
I would argue that Star Wars isn’t sci-fi. Just because they use space ships doesn’t make it science fiction, nothing they do in space or with their space ships deals with ANYTHING related to actual space travel. There’s no concern about distance, they just fly to different planets like they’re driving to the next town over. Hyperspace is just a hand wave, even in Star Trek, where they have warp drives and can go ftl, distance and time to get somewhere is still a factor (even at 10x the speed of light it would take about five months to get to the nearest star), they don’t ever do anything with gravity or weightlessness, they fly through densely packed meteor fields that don’t exist in real life… they might as well be flying magic chariots to magical lands around the stars.
Science fiction, even soft sci-fi, needs to have SOME tether to science.
i would say star wars is more "science fantasy" it blends elements of both sci fi and fantasy. maybe a hot take but i would also say warhammer 40k is science fantasy too
One word rebuttal to this entire video: Hyperion. That four-book series is flat-out amazing, just outstanding story-telling - there's a reason Dan Simmons won the Hugo Award twice and should have won all four times the series was up for it (and this was back in the 90s, when winning a Hugo actually meant something).
I will agree, though, that a lot of sci-fi, especially older sci-fi like DUNE, can be kind of dry, especially the "hard sci-fi" that insists on being strictly accurate, down to the lats detail.
That's... not really an argument, though.
"Hyperion is great, therefore saying Divergent/HG aren't Sci-Fi is wrong" has about as much sense as saying "Crime and Punishment is great, therefore 50SoG is a deep psychological narrative."
Hyperion can be great... and not be Sci-Fi. HG can be awful... and _also_ not be Sci-Fi.
I believe (mostly because I have a friend who argues the exact same thing as Lumi) that what she understands as "Sci-Fi", is Lem and the like. Because it deals with hard science, and not some weird "hyperspace polarizations" that mean jack s., and could be easily replaced with "Magical Crystal of Elendil" and it would make pretty much the same amount of sense.
Personally, I'd argue there are two definitions of SciFi - the OG old one, which is what Lumi seems to be talking about, and the new "Pop" one - which means pretty much anything dealing with technology that isn't straight up defined as "magic".
@@Xoruam I have no take on Divergent/HG beyond them being YA that just happened to port in elements, I would never bring them up in a discussion about Sci-fi (so that was kind of weird for me to see). I
I absolutely agree that there are lots of Sci-fi "flavors" that make any sweeping take on the field kind of pointless. Fantasy goes through these things very regularly ("Is is this epic fantasy or sword and sorcery? Is Romantasy an actually sub-genre or just a marketing gimmick? Are hard magic and soft magic systems actually two different types of fantasy? etc., etc., etc..." )
I enjoy discussions about specific works vs. talking about a genre or field of writing, for all the reasons you point out above. You kinda have to approach each book on their own merits, in the end.....
If Mad Max isn't sci fi because 'muh tech regression' then neither is Planet of the Apes. If Hunger Games used laser domes to segregate people instead of giant metal walls, she'd say it was sci-fi. For Lummi it's about an aesthetic.
im genuinely so fucking mad
If Lumi was a man I'd be fuming but she's not so water of a duck's back
@handrew4813 women
Totally didn't cheat on the RAADS-R
isnt the whole point directly connected with the biosphere of the planet?
Btw the whole point of dune is that it needs to look magical, with a science undertone, so that the perspective of the messiah can work
My favorite Sci-Fi movie was Flubber
Lumi probably thinks The Time Machine isn't sci-fi.
Asuka
Tardgineer*
Interpersonal relationships in media is more of a thing that women care about
Sure, it can add to a story, but in dramas made for ladys the Interpersonal BS is the bulk of the movie
You act like guys don't care about it either, Games of Thrones is all about interpersonal relationships but in terms of kingdoms and land. Like even the most action movie you can tell aka The Matrix is all about personal struggle and being one with your self with OTHERS helping to realize your potential. Most anime are super boring without that "interpersonal relationships" like would you care about why pikolo and goku don't like each other without their hated for each other from ... a frendamy relationship?
@cimozjen2167 yea but in dbz the interpersonal relationships aren't the absolute peak main points of the story, the combat is where the climaxing is
You also act like I didn't say "it can add to the story" and that in media aimed at women, the interpersonal relationships are the climax - they are the main focus. Ever watch a soap opera?
Where as in something like dbz relationships are part of it, but combat is a very large part of the franchise
@@cimozjen2167 I agree, stuff like Interpersonal relationships is what makes my favorite science fiction media my favorite (along with worldbuilding, which I think is best dispersed through dialogue in said relationships)
@@VetriVadewith all due respect to DBZ and its author. His work is great and its beloved by many inculding me.
That said DBZ is an absolutely flat, power scaling, turn your brain off, action fantasy. There is no substance there outside of combat and stakes being upped constantly just for the sake of extending the story. Im not saying there is no drama there but I'd say the spread is like 90-10 for the action.
Once again, I do enjoy me some DBZ.
I think better example makes JJK and Chainsaw-Man.
JJK is a full on dark power fantasy that pulls in a lot of interpesonal story beats but its main focus is still action.
Chainsaw-Man on the other hand is a dark drama that involves a lot of fantasy and action elements but its main focus are interpersonal relationships.
Both are important. It depends on the story and taste
@@VetriVade The combat is set dressing for the character relationships. The Saiyan saga is about Goku's people returning, the Frieza saga is about a tyrant abusing lesser people, the Cell saga is about Goku and Dr Gero's legacy. The only saga where combat is more important than characters is the tournament of power and everyone agrees Jiren is a shitty antagonist because of it.
Scifi is the extrapolation on what future technology would create.
It's Fiction based on possible (if possible realitic) Science.
The best scifi ever written is Asimov Robot saga.
The guy not only invented the concept of Robot and AI, before computers were even a thing, but he also wrote about the impact on society these robot and AI would have.
With the current rise of AI his writing have never been so prophetic.
THIS is scifi.
These days, Scifi, just like fantasy, is an aesthetic choice based on vague popculture understanding on what the original works meant.
I'd probably define "sci-fi" as a fiction story with a "fictional" technological/scientific development that shapes a universe similar to our own (for instance: star trek is scifi because of the development of warp travel - instead of moving through space faster the ships curve space more, while something more fantastical like star wars is less likely to be considered scifi because the universe it presents is fundamentally different to our own in terms of its makeup - star wars has a magical "force" which isn't measureable, that being said there are still scifi concepts within star-wars and non scifi concepts in star-trek but it is "less" scifi than something like "Foundation" or Star-Trek.)
I don't think the definition matters though, art is art and pushing boundaries regardless of whether a story is strictly "scifi" or just has "scifi" concepts within it doesn't really impact the quality of the story it tells - and I think the best scifi isn't about the technological differences between our universe and its fictional universe but instead about characters reactions and experiences when faced with these differences - a scifi story without characters would be pretty dull imo.
Tell me you’ve never seen Treasure Planet or Titan A.E. Without telling me.
Wow she is objectively wrong. It's like saying first contact isn't Sci-Fi because it' Picard's personal journey.
The sci-fi is just setting and world building, not what the story set within that setting is about. Good sci-fi is people centered, with good world building sure, but good sci-fi puts the personal stories of the characters within that world building front and center.
"I like this thing, so something I don't like can't be classified as this thing because then I would like it". That's some Twitter-tier logic.
The longer the clip went on, the harder I stared at my screen in slack-jawed disbelief.
Sigh, this lemon.
Every good sci-fi is people-based. That fact doesnt make it not-scifi.
Being "people-based" doesnt turn sci-fi into fantasy.
Tell me you haven't watched _Planetes_ without telling me you haven't watched _Planetes._
"Most spaceship related stories, they're just dry to me."
The Last Angel
Think, like, Dead Space
But the Marker is unironically the good guys.
Scifi, science fiction, is one of the most vast and varied genres in all of fiction. Narrowing it to just space related scifi does the genre an incredible disservice.
The definition of sci-fi is technology that doesn't exist yet. Meanwhile, magic could be called science we haven't figured out yet. Alice in Wonderland could be considered sci-fi.
When definitions are too loose, they lose all meaning.
Sorry guys and Lumi fans, I don't get it. Dune literally tells about the world of the future, in which the war with artificial intelligence ended and its further development fell under the ban, as a result of which people began to genetically improve themselves. The main focus of the story is on political games, but the scientific layer on which the events take place is huge. How can this even NOT be considered sci-fi?
She is just being a tard, she does that sometimes, don't worry
This is cruel and unusual punishment
All Tomorrows is technically sci-fi and it's far from uniform or bland. The issue is that for the longest time people are trying to copy star trek and have a beautiful, prosperous, united society.
The reality is that the chances of that happening approach zero, so going into a different direction, with different human factions, body modification due to different environments, etc could be far more interesting.
This is one of my favorite Lumi clips. Lumi lumening, the Lumi faced train shirt, the Wiishop track... 👌
I know I stopped watching her streams for a reason
7:39 That’s where supernatural sci-fi comes in
Magic based on pseudo-science, folklore/myth, and theory crafting on the limits of natural laws as we know them is peak
Showing 'divergent' movie poster had the same feeling of revulsion in me as an exorcist to a demon
She most likely gravitates towards space operas.
In any case, the first matrix was great sci-fi. The anime anthology too.
Animatrix was an interesting watch back in the day, I always enjoyed the one about the runner who breaks a world record and pushes beyond his limits which begins to desync him with the matrix. Also I always had a soft spot for the one about the girl looking for her cat and discovering an anomaly in an abandoned building with a group of kids, the colours is that one are great and the overall experience of a “real life” glitch and how you would interact with it.
@DMAN99 yeah. Those were cool. 2nd renaissance was nuts too.
The Expanse was a great sci-fi series
So like pure sci-fi can be pretty rare and typically deals with futuristic technology, such as what would be required for space travel. But unless that's the whole story, then you can just say it's in a sci-fi setting. Like, if Fallout being sci-fi is uncomfortable to you, then it's a survival story in a sci-fi setting. Lots of stories are like this.
But in defense of Fallout specifically, I think it is pure sci-fi. I mean, the whole story is about the consequences of an Age of the Atom future (that was really big in the 50s) that only sort-of actually happened.
4:56 If saw it in the SciFi channel as a kid then it’s Science Fiction as far as I’m concerned.
Like the classic Godzilla movies.
Note that the "future" definition of scifi excludes Star Wars since it takes place in the past. ("A *long* *time* *ago* in a galaxy far, far away...")
Okay she grew up on golden age hard SF. The kind where people expected the author to run calculations to determine how long it would take a ship accelerating at 1 g to move between mars and jupiter based on where those planets should be at the stated year.
That's fine, but its not the only SF.
Project Hail Mary, best near future hard SF in space in decades.
So basically Lumi is into Man after Man and All Tomorrows.
If there’s magic it’s fantasy, if there’s no magic then it’s Scifi.
Correct; it's a space opera.
No amount of star(d) yap will change the fact that Herbert sent the inial serials into a sci-fi magazine to be published.
The term both she and chat are looking for is "Speculative Fiction." A lot of the best sci-fi is speculative, but it's not mandatory.
-and to be fair, the root concept of Divergent is neat; it just doesn't do anything interesting with it.
before Sci-Fi, before High Fantasy.... it was all just 'Pulp Fiction'. Dune & Lord of the Rings are technically both Pulp Fiction.
however, Lord of the Rings set the standard for High Fantasy. and Dune set the standard for 'Space Sci-fi' (however you want to define it).
I partially agree with her that Mad Max isn't Scifi, it's entirely based on existing technology in a regressed post-Apocalypse, but something like Fallout is both Post-Apocalypse AND Scifi. The Hunger Games I can't speak on because I've never read or seen it, but certainly the fact it's in the future seems largely irrelevant, so maybe it's not Scifi? But Lumi really seems to be under the mistaken impression that the only Scifi that is "Scifi" is the very specific subset of "Hard Science Fiction" that was common mostly in the mid-20th century. Even a modern 'hard' Scifi like The Expanse wouldn't be Scifi by her definition.
In general, Scifi is absolutely an extremely broad "genre", just like Romance and Fantasy. There's a reason there's hundreds of different subcategories within the "Scifi" umbrella. But "being set in the future" isn't enough - nor is it exclusive, as Star Wars is undeniably Scifi-Fantasy but is explicitly set in the past, not to mention any other Scifi story that takes place in a fictional advanced Space Past, like Halo's Forerunner stories.
The understood definition of Scifi, really, is stories where a setting is different to our own through _some_ notable change in technology or the like that is strictly within the realms of science (fictional or otherwise) such as FTL travel, Alien Visitors, Sentient Robots, Time Travel et al, rather than the difference being purely magical or fundamentally fantastical, IE Fantasy. That's why Star Wars, with FTL drives and the Force, is both, but Star Trek, where all the "magic" is accepted to simply be science we don't _yet_ understand, is decidely Scifi. This is also why Alternate History is often considered Scifi even if there's no elements like Aliens or Time Travel, because it's just "What if real world, but different?"
Lumi doesn't actually understand the difference between Sci-fi, Sci-Fan, and Space-Fantasy, let alone the various subgenres, or that things can have genre crossover, but still wants to have things solidly categorized.
I find it funny that she views everyone in chat as wanting slop when for her sci-fi has to be in space.
Wonder if Lumi would consider Dead Space to be true science fiction.
It sounds like lumi has a problem with space opera rather than sci fi but also only sees space opera as the one true Sci fi. This is why lumi is our favorite
she really went “erm ackshually” on us
As a Jules Verne reader as a child, I get her "angle". However, it is still☕
Cultural classic milestones of the genre like Terminator, Planet of the Apes, Alien, The Matrix, Back to the Future, and others went through a revolving door of being considered sci-fi and then not, like, a minimum of three times over the course of 12 minutes.
I hope she never leaves entertainment for the sake of the patience and mental well-being of the fellow engineers that would have to suffer the constant contradictions and cognitive dissonance in whatever project they were working on.
Tell me you haven't read the expanse without telling me you haven't read the expanse
Indeed, Sci-fi has to include advances in science as the main catalyst for the story. For this reason I do not consider Star Wars sci-fi. Scope doesn't matter. Space doesn't matter. Science does.
I think...Star Wars has an advancement in technology with the Death Star, a planet killer, the point the whole plot revolves around.
@@JohnDoe11VII It isn't. What does the movies scientifically explain about the Death Star? Only that the core has importance, but not how. What does the movies focus on more, the building of the Death Star or The Force?
Sci-fi doesn't have magic. SW is fantasy.
but dune is like full of psychics and shit
Something can be sci fi without telling a story that needs to be sci fi. Its like how you can have a story set in new york without the statue of liberty.
I think the cringey part is when she decides to react to the single chat comment that agrees with her instead of everyone else who is saying she's wrong. The definition of selective reading.
With regards to making space sci-fi interesting to read, there are plenty of books that make it work that aren't "fantasy" by Lumi's definition. (And by fantasy, I mean leaning more towards hard scifi, where mostly real science is used or extrapolated from, differentiated from soft scifi, where the technology is advanced enough that it can be viewed as magic.) Ender's Game (the first book at least), leans more towards the harder side, with the exception of some technology (notably their communication system, which is extrapolated from reality, and their weapons, which can also be hypothesized from real physics), and yet it has compelling characterization and a deep story. The Expanse leans even further into realistic science depictions, but I haven't read it yet, so I can't comment on how effectively the storytelling side is. (The large numbers of fans seem to indicate it's decent enough, at least.
But depending on how futuristic you want to make your technology, at some point you'll have to step out of the realms of extrapolating from real science, because otherwise you wouldn't be able to delve into some of the other philosophical questions that only make sense in a scifi setting. Believe it or not, Star Trek (up to around DS9 or so) is surprisingly grounded in real physics, though they throw in unexplained science to spice up the story and introduce new concepts. The Culture series, by Iain Banks also steps into the fantastical, but while some technologies are glossed over (like FTL travel), it allows for focus on other technologies that are grounded in reality (their use of AI and the ethics surrounding that). One can make a similar case for Vernor Vinge's Zones of Thought series, which changes the rules of the universe to facilitate his story.
But even if you stick with the "dry" approach to the story, with less of a focus on characterization and more of a focus on the science, you can still end up with an interesting story. Stephen Baxter's Xeelee Sequence and Manifold series are both grounded in hard scifi, and are quite dry reads, but are still quite interesting. Not every story needs to be character driven to be good.
Also note that much of the technology that is casually tossed into scifi is based on real-world research that has become such common knowledge that we take it for granted. (And admittedly water-down, as fewer writers look at the original concepts and just base their works on pre-established fiction.) Wormholes are a good example, as there have been many science papers devoted to that realm of study. Also, some of those concepts aren't always completely valid, as new research has disproven old theories, but they've become ingrained into fiction to such a degree that they have remained and become fantastical according to our current scientific knowledge. Again, wormholes, which we've come to realize would work quite differently from what we hypothesized even 30 years ago.
In the end, I'd argue that Fantasy would be the genre that tends to be more "boring" and "same-y," simply because well written scifi gives such a great variety of material to work with, and questions to answer. The challenge is writing it well, and actually putting deliberate thought into how the science aspects are incorporated into the story, something that all the works I've mentioned here do well. (The ones I've read, at least.)
Dan Simmons has some BANGER science fiction. The Hyperion Cantos and Illium & Olympus are fantastic sci fi books
She said dune isn't "space fantasy" that is different from science fiction, example.
Pretty much everything by Asimov is science fiction.
Pretty much everything referred to as "modern military sci-fi" is space fantasy.
I want to know what the book of the people changing their body structure she mentioned is called.
Maybe Lumi tryin to say sometimes you could tell the same story in different genres,like for instance we have Robocop which is cyberpunk,but you could also tell it in a fantasy setting (think D&d) but the main character is now a warforged paladin.....
This is peak catlady
Does Lumi realize what Sci-fi stands for?
You know I ragged on this without context on Twitter but I'd rather throw Dune away than claim The Hunger Games as a sci-fi series. And to be fair her point about "it needs to have science" is a valid one and I wholeheartedly agree with it - but I'm a sci fi writer and obsessive sci-fi nerd so I'm probably biased in that regard. Disqualifying anything that throws personal journeys out is a certified Lumi take though....
Also also, the first person who tries to qualify the *space opera* that is Star Wars as a sci-fi series in my replies is getting shipped off to Siberia. Don't you dare.
A thing can be more than one thing at once.
If you're getting rid of Dune because it's science is fantastical then you need to get rid of Star Trek and most of the genre as well. The Hunger Games has nothing of substance we don't have today (or when it was written to be more correct) except for a few structural political changes whereas Dune has interstellar travel, forcefields and societies based off genetic manipulation.
Once you're through with the disqualifiers Lumi tacks on to decide what is not sci-fi all you're left with are thesis papers on string theory for science fiction.
In the beginning of Sci Fi as a genere there was distinct emphasis on the scientific aspect (e.g. how society would look like if we had discovered this or that machine). The science was used to extrapolate from current knowledge what was possible to do in the (far) future with current scientific discoveries (e.g. laser, some kind of theoretical way to traverse traverse space, etc.). Later this part of Sci Fi was categorized as a Hard Sci Fi. I'm not sure what is definition of general Sci Fi now, but it seems to be that anything that uses Sci Fi gadgets gets this label automatically. I don't think Hunger Games would be Sci Fi just because it happens in the future because they don't use gadgets that much and it seems to be places in near future. It's more about how a society can change, but without any scientific impulse (just strait up extrapolation of the divide of people to the haves, and have-nots).
Still there is Foundation series of Isaac Asimov that is pretty close to that description (though it happens in the far future) and I would argue that it is one of the best Sci Fi series written. I think that the difference there is that series assumes that social science got to a point where it's possible to predict large social movements like raise and fall of empires on the macro scale and while it didn't give characters ability to avoid tragedies, it let them to prepare for them and lessen the negative aspects of the future. It has the vastness of space, but it is concerned mostly with the politics of the setting and how characters resolve current crisis using political mechanisms. Still doesn't pass the Lemon woman test, but I like it.
Not only Dune is clearly a sci-fi, but it's also on a surprisingly hardish side of it. Most of things there deliberately made look bizarre, but fundamentally aren't that impossible. And even more magical stuff like FTL is more grounded, they even still use nukes as a "no u" button. Even their space wizards are possibly least wizardly in a history of space wizardry. And then there's ecology which is just Herbert's main specialty and done with great care. There's just no way to spin Dune as non sci-fi without being laughed out of the room.
And concerning hunger games, I don't really know. I haven't really watched it, but from tidbits I've seen I can't really remember anything that technological tbh. Like, maybe a camera drones flying around? Doesn't really cut it for me. I dunno, were there at least flying cars or something?
What do you answer to the statement that sci-fi is kinda dead?
Lumi would like Old Man's War.
Wait, so she’s ignoring Star Wars ,Star Trek and Stargate ?
Dune is classic Science Fiction because it fully extrapolates from the genesis "what if" that so many of the old Sci-Fi stories did... "What if we lived on a planet that was one gigantic desert?" And everything flows from there. However because of the scope, I think that it better fits into the "science fantasy" genre because modern sci-fi does not hand itself the same way that it did generations ago.