Thanks for the demonstrations between the cast and prototype parts. It really inspires me to consider making fabricated parts when a casting is just too far gone.
Option 3, hands down. I would research the different types of steel available to you. The prototype fork looks a little soft to me, compared to its cast counterpart. I'm sure with your skill and attention to detail, the part you make will be much better than the prototype.
This is the way to go making a jig. It is otherwise close to impossible to make the correct replacement. Making the sturdy jig is more work than the part itself. Than you could take the original broken and wrongly fixed part apart and properly fix it using stick or TIG welding. This is more than enough material for a video.
After watching a bunch of other machine restorations, I so appreciate your technique and the effort you put into your restoration. Please keep up yout great work.
Option #3. If you've got the confidence in your own skills to fab up a brand new 2-3 fork from scratch, DO IT. The original prototype 2-3 fork was hand-fabbed to start with, so it would be more true to the prototype spirit of the tractor to fab up a brand-new 2-3 fork from scratch that will work with the production 2-3 rail. As for adding the reinforcements from the production version to such a a piece, I would think that depends on how often do you think its going to be running in 2nd and 3rd as a parade cruiser?
Toby, I'd vote for building a fork as well. Here's why. If you build a fork for the production rail, and it doesn't work, or you hate it, you haven't modified any prototype or production parts in your attempt. You can also take the opportunity to add support where the prototype lacks it and it was added to the production part. Welding on cast especially in such a high load area isn't advisable in my opinion, you're just asking for that welded cast shift lug to break off and absolutely TRASH your beautiful new transmission, it might even scratch some sealing paint that you've worked to hard to protect (The horror!). Because of all of those reasons I firmly believe that reproducing the prototype fork to slide on a production rail is by far the best and I'd almost argue only option. Great video, always appreciate your systematic approach to compare and contrast prototype vs production parts and examine their suitability for reuse and verifying function. Keep up the good work! Would love to see a start up video of your two ancient IH power units this year!
Option four. Take the production fork, cut down the tab and make that part of the fork round, make a new tab that slides outside of the cut down area of the fork, and braze them together. That extra tab part can even extend to the rear a bit, to give it extra strength.
Mr. Curly hat , you are the man. You can build the new fork, just make sure you let us watch! If you don't there's going to be be a couple ticked off boys here in northern Alberta.
I like the looks of the cast production forks but since you would have to change so many visible parts I feel # 3 is the way to go. Like others have said it would make a terrific video too.
Hmm! The old shifter rod is bent - the old fork is twisted and cracked - the production rod is OK, but the fork has the roll pin in the wrong place: so, as so much of the prototype tractor is made from fabricated parts, it seems that with your skills it is entirely appropriate to fabricate a new fork, drilling the roll pin hole in the right spot to go with the production rod. Your videos never fail to engage the mind and please the senses - thanks!
I think it would be a good idea, to remake both the fork and shaft from scratch, that way you don't have to use the production shaft, to get the prototype gearbox working, just reinforce the fork with the extra bracing, the production version has to prevent the fork from breaking, And Thank You, for the informative and entertaining rebuild and restore video.
You could modify the production fork by adding weld metal to the front of the area that contacts the shifter and then grind/file/remove material on the back side of the fork so that all the fork shift tabs are all in line. It seems that the production one is in good condition and you could save a lot of time by modifying it compared to starting over. I’m not sure however how weld warping and heat could affect fitment and hardening of the fork. Good luck! Enjoy the videos. I’ve got a Cat RD-7 that I need to get working and seeing you work on your crawlers has helped a lot with the general knowledge of how they are put together.
With your skills and the tools on hand i think a new fork would be the best. As a plus you will not have to worry about it coming apart and killing that transmission. Love the old black and white photo of when it was new,the color picture when you get it finished will be awesome
I think it would be best in this case to use the production parts, even though the shift tabs lined up they still look pretty beat up. I have a feeling that the production shift assembly will be longer lasting and probably have a more solid feel. I was also thinking you should make a see through resin wall plaque with all the x parts in it to go with the tractor.
I'd weld up the hole in the production shaft then turn it down to the correct diameter in your lathe. Then I would position the parts back into the transmission and using a transfer punch, martk the position of thenew hole in the production shaft then remove it and drill it using the old fork as a guide. Thaks for the great videos.
Building a new prototype replacement part would make great video and its probably the most correct repair! The parts were hand made originally and I'm sure you're up to the task!
Since I just found your channel I am going thru old series. I know I'm a year behind and the produuct is finalized but after scanning through the comments I didn't see this one. Using the engineering on the go vein of thought like the fluid trough being a temporary fix. Use the production parts rotate the rod in the fork 90 degrees and drill out the fork housing to line up with neutral. That keeps X231 rolling with a production note.
Making a new fork is best. It will allow you to build in the tolerances required resulting from age and wear. And I believe your talents will result in the new fork made the way the original artists would have made it but better! Your videos and clear explanations are as robust as your mechanical talents. You attack your work with vigor and enthusiasm only a true artist can muster. Your current employer is so fortunate to have you working on transmissions. To quote Tony the Tiger, "You're Greeeeat". Can't wait till you pour in a couple of gallons of Lube!!!!
I think I'd either disassemble the prototype fork and rebuild it, which would take a lot of work and ideally some TIG welding rather than gas or MIG, or alternately just build a new fork from scratch to the same basic dimensions. As someone else mentioned I'd be inclined to add the reinforcing rib, but that may not be required considering this isn't going to be pulling a plow. I'd also personally be inclined to straighten the original shift rod, and if necessary do a little weld or braze buildup and remachine the grooves. That shouldn't be too hard with a form tool in the lathe.
Option 4, turn a new rail on the lathe. You already have a lathe, mild steel shaft stock turns easy, only a few grooves need to be cut, and that way you can add the corrections for the detent location they were trying to achieve.
My vote would be to fab a new fork. It looks pretty straight forward. The whole thing makes me wonder what trial and error went into making it all work in the first place. Imagine the fit-up, making each gear work like it needed to. I almost think they would have left some material in place, and then ground or filed the fit to make them right... Craftsmen, just what we lack today...
I'd definitely work up a new fork to match the production shaft. Having watched many of thise series episodes I have absolutely no doubt that you have the expertise and ability to do so and have it turn out as good as any part the factory produced back when those tractors were in production.
Hi If it was mine I'd go for the fun project making the new fork to fit the production selector shaft. Then when I'd done it, I'd get the letter stamps and add your initials and the date to it. It would be cool for somebody to find your inscription in 50 years if it was ever taken apart again for some reason. Thanks for the video. Take care.
Option5 drill a complete new hole in both to align the shift tabs. using the prototype fork and production shaft, you would have to assemble all shifters to line everything up, you could clamp the shift tabs to a piece of 1/2” square stock to keep them aligned then somehow lock that fork in position and drill through both parts locked together, or firstly drill the top hole in the fork for guidance put shaft in position and then drill shaft and bottom hole infork in one go, being careful not to drill near the existing holes in the shaft making it weak in that area, if you left the existing holes alone. I wish you well in what option you choose cause it has to be spot on.
Thank you for the video. I really hesitated to offer this advice-I am not in your league as a mechanic.But you asked.The challenge of making the part and making it work properly seems like it'd be really interesting and satisfying but not so complicated that it would be drudgery.
Great video and enjoy the series on the X231. Installing production parts takes away from the prototype restoration. I would make a new fork and add the gusset like the production for strength and if possible a new shaft to match the prototype.
Original 10X shift fork appears to have had at least one but possibly several issues that lead(s) to its current condition. I like the idea of fabricating a new one based overall on the Production fork with the specs needed to sync with X231.
Very very cool to have what seems a complete prototype engine. And also to be able to compare the prototype and final production. Very cool!! I think you should dig a bit deeper to find the reason of the broken fork. It could be a problem with the gears or that the prototype fork was to thick for its space and got stuck because of temperature differences. You can straight that bend drive pin. You als must make sure that the new or repaired fork is on a 90 degree angle and not twisted. Turn all the fork to protrude to the top to get an idea how they align into the gears. It would be interesting to take measurements using a dial indicator to see how true these forks are. Use a mill to make sure the the gear contact surface and bushing are correctly aligned
I feel bad now. I had a 445 I bought simply for the front axle. Yes, it was cheaper to buy a whole tractor than to buy a new spindle for my jetstar 3. I sold a few pieces from the 445 then scrapped the rest. I think that was a slight mistake as I think I needed the Sprague too. It was tough having room and time while I was working. Retired now. Luckily, I kept the engine.
Hi, my reconstructive Idea would be for you to fabricate a prototype copy of the damaged gear shifter. Your a pretty good engineering/ mechanical professional type of fellow,, so your just adding your prototype part to this project. Just for your information, I'm viewing your Chanel in Cambodia where I live, but have good memories of Minneapolis, Minnetonka, Duluth, St Paul's. Being an English guy l like a drop of beer, and boy l certainly got my fill in Minnesota.
I think I would plug the holes on the production fork and drill new holes if the fork is not hardened at the rail bore. The old holes can be welded or sealed with a tapered threaded plug and it will be solid
Option 3, I believe the spirit of prototyping is building one off parts. You will best honor your obvious desire to do the right thing by adding your own fab skills. ;-)
Use the production shaft, by drilling a new roll pin hole in the correct position at 90 degrees apart from the factory hole. Mount the production shift fork and you're good to go. Braze up the original hole if it makes you feel more comfortable.
Could you use the production fork as a mold pattern and build up the front side of the shifter tab area. After it is cast you could machine the rear area of the tab and you would have the strength benefits of the cast in webbing of the production piece with the proper alignment of the experimental ones. You could then use the production shaft on a new experimentalish fork.
Go with option three. That'll give you a good fork, one that you know is correct and will keep true with all the one off touches the tractor already has. Great videos!
I am learning so much from your videos. At 47 who says you can’t learn new things. If you can make the fork and the shift tab one piece go for number 3. Can you fill the hole on the shift rail then drill out a new hole on the shift rail. Would the heat of doing the filling risk bending of the shift rail. Or spin the shift rail 90 degrees and just drill a new hole for the shift fork. Sorry just talking out loud.
Option 5: Get Abom79 to make you a new shaft, the guy is up for youtube collaborations and his machining is next level. It would be cool to watch Adam making a replacement shaft for an old US tractor on one of his old US lathes.
"Fork it". Trash the prototype fork. Either fill the roll pin hole on the production rail and re-drill a new hole or turn a new rail ( wouldn't that be easier than making a new fork?) End up with a modified production rail or new rail and the production fork. I know you want to use prototype parts if at all possible but sometimes you just have to compromise and since the prototype parts are unusable either way it's going to be a different rail and a different fork. I love the channel, and really enjoy your "person to person" style, please keep up the good work.
I would make the new fork. Wall art the old one. I would also see what it took to reproduce the prototype slide rail vs a production one. Should be a straightforward lathe project. The only issue I would wonder, is did they have the travel issue (regrind on the detent) from day one and does it need refinement in dimensions. Thanks for sharing
I think playing the MM engineer by making a new fork could be fun, and I still insist you bend the oil channel at 7:11 so it fits flush with the side of the transmission.
It is okay to build a new fork but one should consider the material type. I believe mild steel may be too soft and would provide a poor wear surface at the yolk where the wear surface gets narrow. Harder, higher carbon steel is more appropriate and more challenging to weld, but it can be done. I would favor E309 stainless welding rod for the job.
I would weld to the face of the tab on the production 2nd and 3rd gear fork, then grind to alignment. It would save you a considerable amount of work, and solve the problem nicely.
Its all mild steel, I would put a cutting disk right through that fork and redo the repair properly, maybe even add in that extra support to match the production casting. Grind out the crack and weld up, including the dents. Quick hit on the flap wheel. Maybe keep the break repair weld for history? As for the rail I think straighten it in the press, plug weld the existing hole and then rotate it to a fresh detent position and redrill. All original, jobs a good one.
Awesome another video I got a issue on my 4:45 there is so much slop in the shifter that I cannot get the shift into 3rd 4th and 5th high or low. Cannot find anything that shows the pictures and how that shifter works on that and it is a 1958 445 Minneapolis Moline we just purchased the tractor and it runs good except for the shifting
Repair the protype fork, it could be cut reset and welded, fill the worn ears, it was what someone hand made for that unique tractor. Yes it would be a bit of work but ultimately it saves a special and unique part that exists.
When you talk about fabricating a new shift fork, I think you're saying that you'd make one with a tab in the right spot to align with the other prototype forks but also with the roll pin hole in the right spot for the production shaft. If so, that sounds good. One question, though: Why did that fork and rail fail to begin with? And does it run the risk of failing again, even on parade duty?
P.S. Reading the other comments, I'm reminded of you saying (in another video) something to the effect of "other people telling me how to spend my money." Here people are telling what they think you should do as though you were a retired (i.e., nothing better to do) lottery winner (i.e., bottomless funds). Personally, if you were to go with production forks, rails, top cover, and shifter, I wouldn't fault you for it. Cheers....
My thing would be what would be a (lack of better words here) less stressful repair. No matter what way you do it is gonna be a bit of a pain. Makeing a new fork does seem in light easier from the key board warrior side of me. Maybe this a good option 5, but maybe not. What about makeing a new shift rail to use the production fork? But you could drill the hole where ever need be to get the rails lined up. And coping the detent locations. You have a lathe which makes that a semi easy repair I think as long as the rails are a semi standard size to buy. Just a thought ;)
Is filling the rail and re-drilling it for the new hole not an option as well? Obviously wouldn't be able to use a weld due to possible warping, maybe filling with a JB-Weld? It's not like the hole itself takes any strain- it'd be the roll pin's job. As long as you got a proper fitting roll pin I can't see a reason why it'd be unfavorable? Seems like an alternative way rather than making a new fork, less measuring that needs to be done.
Here is a another option , ... grind/cut the shift pin off the production one, grind a groove around the shift fork where the new shift pin should go, then make a small fork with the new shift pin on top so that it slides over the freshly grooved collar and brace/weld in in place, should be much stronger than just welding a new pin on top, but much less work than making and fitting a whole new assembly, hope my explanation makes sense without a sketch .... Btw... got some NOS CAT 8N9803 strainer/filters which i have no use for, if you want them, drop me a message (email address in my channel about section, could not find your's), i'll send it to you foc.
Weld up the hole in the production rail, use the production fork but re-position to provide your alignment and re- drill the rail to accept the split pin
The entire project is a great restoration and at times things have be made with new parts. The 2 -3 fork is just 1/4 " steel, Just lay the design out and bend it. Add the gusset from the 15° bend surface to the boss and add strength. Weld the ne boss on but do not drill the roll pin hole till it's all dry fitted together to get the best location.
Nice work. I'd lean towards making a new fork. While I'm at it a new rail as well that is similar to the prototype geometry since the goal here seems to be to keep the tractor as prototype as possible. If the detent needs to be moved back a bit, then do that on the new rail too.
Imagine what they would have done. They wanted to get that running, so the bad attempt to fix the rail. That kind of worked for them with a WTF-attitude. But you want it to work perfectly. So use a production fork and rail, weld (or let weld) a new tab. Keep the old rail and fork as a show and tell piece to demonstate that things can get wrong on prototypes.
well you asked. i would just weld up the hole and re drill it. it fast simple and well keep's things moving along. there more work to getting everything lined up than one might think the 10x one has all ready "fit" it self to the gears so i don't any great amount of wear happen form hear on out. keep up the good work
I've got an option 5... But making a new shifter fork is still probably a better option. You could tap the original hole in the production rail, thread a bolt into it with loc-tite and turn it smooth with the shaft... Then, drill your new roll pin hole in the production shaft so that the fork is in alignment with the others. If I am looking correctly, the new drilled hole would be in contact with the bolt-filled hole in the shaft. The roll pin would prevent the fill-bolt from turning out - similar to the stitching method in repairing cracks in cast.... Not the most correct option, but another fairly simple option? Just a thought that may not have been thought of yet..... Instead of filling with a bolt, too... You could fill with a small chunk of bolt, then plug weld it and turn it smooth. Then re-drill your roll pin hole, if you were extremely concerned.... I guess that would be option 6? Lol. Love the videos, Squatch!
@@squatch253 Yup! I was thinking of that when I saw you dry fit the items and the holes weren't quite lined up.. I shouted "use the old fill-n-stitch method!"... I stand behind you no matter your choice. Making a new fork wouldn't be THAT tough, but would definitely take some time AND would probably be the most correct. Look forward to the next video.
If you ever plan to work this MM I would go #4 plan ,if you plan to trailer it around , do a parade with it then go #3 . Weld up the ex. Shaft lathe it back to size then make a new fork . Then keep it out of the field and no load on 2nd gear , long live MM ( Mans Machine ) well that's what I call mine .
Isn't the point of a prototype that the builders were testing theories and then improving on the design and then test those? You said, and are leaning toward making a new steel fork. Consider making a new rail as well taking into consideration where the past builders were grinding and brazing to properly locate the shift point. In the spirit of prototyping, build the next iteration of this shift rod/fork assembly learning from the past attempts.
If I was you (which I'm not but if I had your ability and knowhow) I'd go with #3 and just make a new one. Problem solved. But which one you go with will work. No shoddy work here. Thanks, Toby and Hi, Pop!
Make a new fork. It would be a great fabricating experience and awesome video!!
Make a new fork gets my vote. Fantastic restoration series! Keep up the great work. Always looking forward to the next video.
I'd probably lean towards option 3, but I'd try to mimic the production shift fork and add the extra support to keep the fork from bending again.
Thanks for the demonstrations between the cast and prototype parts. It really inspires me to consider making fabricated parts when a casting is just too far gone.
Option 3, hands down. I would research the different types of steel available to you. The prototype fork looks a little soft to me, compared to its cast counterpart. I'm sure with your skill and attention to detail, the part you make will be much better than the prototype.
This has to be my favorite series on youtube! I really enjoy the component by component breakdown. Engineering archeology at its finest.
Make a jig using the production part to get everything lined up good and make a new one. Add that little brace like the production one has..
This is the way to go making a jig. It is otherwise close to impossible to make the correct replacement. Making the sturdy jig is more work than the part itself. Than you could take the original broken and wrongly fixed part apart and properly fix it using stick or TIG welding. This is more than enough material for a video.
I'd say make both the rail and the fork new for the sake of keeping like a prototype
I second that option make a real job of it.
@@ajam6010 Third
I'm going to join you guys. Make both new.
Yup. Turn a new rail and fab up a new fork.
Forth
After watching a bunch of other machine restorations, I so appreciate your technique and the effort you put into your restoration. Please keep up yout great work.
An enjoyable Sunday treat I watched with Sawyer.
Option #3. If you've got the confidence in your own skills to fab up a brand new 2-3 fork from scratch, DO IT. The original prototype 2-3 fork was hand-fabbed to start with, so it would be more true to the prototype spirit of the tractor to fab up a brand-new 2-3 fork from scratch that will work with the production 2-3 rail. As for adding the reinforcements from the production version to such a a piece, I would think that depends on how often do you think its going to be running in 2nd and 3rd as a parade cruiser?
Toby, I'd vote for building a fork as well. Here's why. If you build a fork for the production rail, and it doesn't work, or you hate it, you haven't modified any prototype or production parts in your attempt. You can also take the opportunity to add support where the prototype lacks it and it was added to the production part. Welding on cast especially in such a high load area isn't advisable in my opinion, you're just asking for that welded cast shift lug to break off and absolutely TRASH your beautiful new transmission, it might even scratch some sealing paint that you've worked to hard to protect (The horror!). Because of all of those reasons I firmly believe that reproducing the prototype fork to slide on a production rail is by far the best and I'd almost argue only option. Great video, always appreciate your systematic approach to compare and contrast prototype vs production parts and examine their suitability for reuse and verifying function. Keep up the good work! Would love to see a start up video of your two ancient IH power units this year!
Option four. Take the production fork, cut down the tab and make that part of the fork round, make a new tab that slides outside of the cut down area of the fork, and braze them together. That extra tab part can even extend to the rear a bit, to give it extra strength.
Mr. Curly hat , you are the man. You can build the new fork, just make sure you let us watch! If you don't there's going to be be a couple ticked off boys here in northern Alberta.
I like the looks of the cast production forks but since you would have to change so many visible parts I feel # 3 is the way to go. Like others have said it would make a terrific video too.
Hmm! The old shifter rod is bent - the old fork is twisted and cracked - the production rod is OK, but the fork has the roll pin in the wrong place: so, as so much of the prototype tractor is made from fabricated parts, it seems that with your skills it is entirely appropriate to fabricate a new fork, drilling the roll pin hole in the right spot to go with the production rod.
Your videos never fail to engage the mind and please the senses - thanks!
I think it would be a good idea, to remake both the fork and shaft from scratch, that way you don't have to use the production shaft, to get the prototype gearbox working, just reinforce the fork with the extra bracing, the production version has to prevent the fork from breaking, And Thank You, for the informative and entertaining rebuild and restore video.
You could modify the production fork by adding weld metal to the front of the area that contacts the shifter and then grind/file/remove material on the back side of the fork so that all the fork shift tabs are all in line. It seems that the production one is in good condition and you could save a lot of time by modifying it compared to starting over.
I’m not sure however how weld warping and heat could affect fitment and hardening of the fork.
Good luck! Enjoy the videos. I’ve got a Cat RD-7 that I need to get working and seeing you work on your crawlers has helped a lot with the general knowledge of how they are put together.
With your skills and the tools on hand i think a new fork would be the best. As a plus you will not have to worry about it coming apart and killing that transmission. Love the old black and white photo of when it was new,the color picture when you get it finished will be awesome
I think it would be best in this case to use the production parts, even though the shift tabs lined up they still look pretty beat up. I have a feeling that the production shift assembly will be longer lasting and probably have a more solid feel. I was also thinking you should make a see through resin wall plaque with all the x parts in it to go with the tractor.
Option 3!!!! Let your fab skills shine!!!!
Make the new fork. This way we all learn how its done and apply the lessons to our projects. Thanks for the great videos enjoy watching.
I'd weld up the hole in the production shaft then turn it down to the correct diameter in your lathe. Then I would position the parts back into the transmission and using a transfer punch, martk the position of thenew hole in the production shaft then remove it and drill it using the old fork as a guide. Thaks for the great videos.
Building a new prototype replacement part would make great video and its probably the most correct repair! The parts were hand made originally and I'm sure you're up to the task!
You know your going to build it , and I can't wait to see it
Since I just found your channel I am going thru old series. I know I'm a year behind and the produuct is finalized but after scanning through the comments I didn't see this one. Using the engineering on the go vein of thought like the fluid trough being a temporary fix. Use the production parts rotate the rod in the fork 90 degrees and drill out the fork housing to line up with neutral. That keeps X231 rolling with a production note.
I would make a new fork. You have the expertise and willingness to keep your crawler original. I have faith in you.! go with option 3.
Making a new fork is best. It will allow you to build in the tolerances required resulting from age and wear. And I believe your talents will result in the new fork made the way the original artists would have made it but better! Your videos and clear explanations are as robust as your mechanical talents. You attack your work with vigor and enthusiasm only a true artist can muster. Your current employer is so fortunate to have you working on transmissions. To quote Tony the Tiger, "You're Greeeeat". Can't wait till you pour in a couple of gallons of Lube!!!!
I think I'd either disassemble the prototype fork and rebuild it, which would take a lot of work and ideally some TIG welding rather than gas or MIG, or alternately just build a new fork from scratch to the same basic dimensions. As someone else mentioned I'd be inclined to add the reinforcing rib, but that may not be required considering this isn't going to be pulling a plow.
I'd also personally be inclined to straighten the original shift rod, and if necessary do a little weld or braze buildup and remachine the grooves. That shouldn't be too hard with a form tool in the lathe.
Option 3 sounds best. Great video!
Option 4, turn a new rail on the lathe. You already have a lathe, mild steel shaft stock turns easy, only a few grooves need to be cut, and that way you can add the corrections for the detent location they were trying to achieve.
My vote would be to fab a new fork. It looks pretty straight forward. The whole thing makes me wonder what trial and error went into making it all work in the first place. Imagine the fit-up, making each gear work like it needed to. I almost think they would have left some material in place, and then ground or filed the fit to make them right... Craftsmen, just what we lack today...
The quality of the work you do, makeing a new fork is the best solution even if you had a machine shop CNC it then bend it
I've rebuilt a Manuel transmission before but it still great to see this much detail explanation in how it works
I too would agree with making a new one, you can all ways use the experience. What ever you choose will be a good decision
I'd definitely work up a new fork to match the production shaft.
Having watched many of thise series episodes I have absolutely no doubt that you have the expertise and ability to do so and have it turn out as good as any part the factory produced back when those tractors were in production.
Hi If it was mine I'd go for the fun project making the new fork to fit the production selector shaft. Then when I'd done it, I'd get the letter stamps and add your initials and the date to it. It would be cool for somebody to find your inscription in 50 years if it was ever taken apart again for some reason. Thanks for the video. Take care.
Fab a new fork. Not only would this solve your issue but it would stay true to the story of this tractor with the hand made prototype parts !
Option5 drill a complete new hole in both to align the shift tabs. using the prototype fork and production shaft, you would have to assemble all shifters to line everything up, you could clamp the shift tabs to a piece of 1/2” square stock to keep them aligned then somehow lock that fork in position and drill through both parts locked together, or firstly drill the top hole in the fork for guidance put shaft in position and then drill shaft and bottom hole infork in one go, being careful not to drill near the existing holes in the shaft making it weak in that area, if you left the existing holes alone. I wish you well in what option you choose cause it has to be spot on.
Thank you for the video. I really hesitated to offer this advice-I am not in your league as a mechanic.But you asked.The challenge of making the part and making it work properly seems like it'd be really interesting and satisfying but not so complicated that it would be drudgery.
Great video and enjoy the series on the X231. Installing production parts takes away from the prototype restoration. I would make a new fork and add the gusset like the production for strength and if possible a new shaft to match the prototype.
From what I have seen, you certainly have the skill to make a new fork, and that's why I,m recommending you make a new fork.
Original 10X shift fork appears to have had at least one but possibly several issues that lead(s) to its current condition. I like the idea of fabricating a new one based overall on the Production fork with the specs needed to sync with X231.
Very very cool to have what seems a complete prototype engine. And also to be able to compare the prototype and final production. Very cool!!
I think you should dig a bit deeper to find the reason of the broken fork. It could be a problem with the gears or that the prototype fork was to thick for its space and got stuck because of temperature differences. You can straight that bend drive pin. You als must make sure that the new or repaired fork is on a 90 degree angle and not twisted. Turn all the fork to protrude to the top to get an idea how they align into the gears. It would be interesting to take measurements using a dial indicator to see how true these forks are. Use a mill to make sure the the gear contact surface and bushing are correctly aligned
I am confidant that you will make the right decision, your knowledge and experience is un-matched, will whatch and see what you decides
It's interesting that you mention 3rd gear jumping out because mine does that also on my production 445 and I know others that do as well
I feel bad now. I had a 445 I bought simply for the front axle. Yes, it was cheaper to buy a whole tractor than to buy a new spindle for my jetstar 3. I sold a few pieces from the 445 then scrapped the rest. I think that was a slight mistake as I think I needed the Sprague too. It was tough having room and time while I was working. Retired now. Luckily, I kept the engine.
New fork.... Wow, the exact measurements needed for success are going to be a great vid.
I will just say I agree 100% with Andy Fromm & Jason Whitler
Hi, my reconstructive Idea would be for you to fabricate a prototype copy of the damaged gear shifter.
Your a pretty good engineering/ mechanical professional type of fellow,, so your just adding your prototype part to this project.
Just for your information, I'm viewing your Chanel in Cambodia where I live, but have good memories of Minneapolis, Minnetonka, Duluth, St Paul's.
Being an English guy l like a drop of beer, and boy l certainly got my fill in Minnesota.
I think I would plug the holes on the production fork and drill new holes if the fork is not hardened at the rail bore. The old holes can be welded or sealed with a tapered threaded plug and it will be solid
Option #3 will be fun to see you fabricate it!
Option 3, I believe the spirit of prototyping is building one off parts. You will best honor your obvious desire to do the right thing by adding your own fab skills. ;-)
New ;you got the talent!
Use the production shaft, by drilling a new roll pin hole in the correct position at 90 degrees apart from the factory hole. Mount the production shift fork and you're good to go. Braze up the original hole if it makes you feel more comfortable.
I vote 3. Good to see your fab and machine skills. I have faith in you.
Could you use the production fork as a mold pattern and build up the front side of the shifter tab area. After it is cast you could machine the rear area of the tab and you would have the strength benefits of the cast in webbing of the production piece with the proper alignment of the experimental ones. You could then use the production shaft on a new experimentalish fork.
It looks to me like fabricating a new fork is the obvious choice. Cool video opportunity too. Have at it!
Go with option three. That'll give you a good fork, one that you know is correct and will keep true with all the one off touches the tractor already has. Great videos!
Make a new fork and a new new shaft ... love what you do really enjoying the channel
Remake that fork! Another great video on the surprises X231 has
I am learning so much from your videos. At 47 who says you can’t learn new things. If you can make the fork and the shift tab one piece go for number 3. Can you fill the hole on the shift rail then drill out a new hole on the shift rail. Would the heat of doing the filling risk bending of the shift rail. Or spin the shift rail 90 degrees and just drill a new hole for the shift fork. Sorry just talking out loud.
Option 5: Get Abom79 to make you a new shaft, the guy is up for youtube collaborations and his machining is next level. It would be cool to watch Adam making a replacement shaft for an old US tractor on one of his old US lathes.
"Fork it". Trash the prototype fork. Either fill the roll pin hole on the production rail and re-drill a new hole or turn a new rail ( wouldn't that be easier than making a new fork?) End up with a modified production rail or new rail and the production fork.
I know you want to use prototype parts if at all possible but sometimes you just have to compromise and since the prototype parts are unusable either way it's going to be a different rail and a different fork.
I love the channel, and really enjoy your "person to person" style, please keep up the good work.
I am with the Option #3 mind set. It is the closest to the prototype, you can add the support. This gives the tractor the best of reliability.
New Fork here. "There's Your Dinner"! LOL
Nothing wrong with making a new fork, add the gusset, really enjoy watching this progress good luck buddy
I would make the new fork. Wall art the old one. I would also see what it took to reproduce the prototype slide rail vs a production one. Should be a straightforward lathe project. The only issue I would wonder, is did they have the travel issue (regrind on the detent) from day one and does it need refinement in dimensions. Thanks for sharing
You're went this far new fork sounds good.!!!
You make this look so easy. I suspect its not. Brilliant series of films. As are the caterpillar items.
I'm really enjoying this series, keep up the awesome work! You should just make a new fork, that would probably be the best option.
I think playing the MM engineer by making a new fork could be fun, and I still insist you bend the oil channel at 7:11 so it fits flush with the side of the transmission.
It is okay to build a new fork but one should consider the material type. I believe mild steel may be too soft and would provide a poor wear surface at the yolk where the wear surface gets narrow. Harder, higher carbon steel is more appropriate and more challenging to weld, but it can be done. I would favor E309 stainless welding rod for the job.
I would weld to the face of the tab on the production 2nd and 3rd gear fork, then grind to alignment. It would save you a considerable amount of work, and solve the problem nicely.
Its all mild steel, I would put a cutting disk right through that fork and redo the repair properly, maybe even add in that extra support to match the production casting. Grind out the crack and weld up, including the dents. Quick hit on the flap wheel. Maybe keep the break repair weld for history? As for the rail I think straighten it in the press, plug weld the existing hole and then rotate it to a fresh detent position and redrill. All original, jobs a good one.
Awesome another video I got a issue on my 4:45 there is so much slop in the shifter that I cannot get the shift into 3rd 4th and 5th high or low. Cannot find anything that shows the pictures and how that shifter works on that and it is a 1958 445 Minneapolis Moline we just purchased the tractor and it runs good except for the shifting
Could you weld the hole in the production fork, and re-drill that one? If not, reproduce the fork to match the original!
Repair the protype fork, it could be cut reset and welded, fill the worn ears, it was what someone hand made for that unique tractor. Yes it would be a bit of work but ultimately it saves a special and unique part that exists.
Option 3 is my vote.
I agree, new fork.
When you talk about fabricating a new shift fork, I think you're saying that you'd make one with a tab in the right spot to align with the other prototype forks but also with the roll pin hole in the right spot for the production shaft. If so, that sounds good. One question, though: Why did that fork and rail fail to begin with? And does it run the risk of failing again, even on parade duty?
P.S. Reading the other comments, I'm reminded of you saying (in another video) something to the effect of "other people telling me how to spend my money." Here people are telling what they think you should do as though you were a retired (i.e., nothing better to do) lottery winner (i.e., bottomless funds). Personally, if you were to go with production forks, rails, top cover, and shifter, I wouldn't fault you for it. Cheers....
My thing would be what would be a (lack of better words here) less stressful repair. No matter what way you do it is gonna be a bit of a pain. Makeing a new fork does seem in light easier from the key board warrior side of me. Maybe this a good option 5, but maybe not. What about makeing a new shift rail to use the production fork? But you could drill the hole where ever need be to get the rails lined up. And coping the detent locations. You have a lathe which makes that a semi easy repair I think as long as the rails are a semi standard size to buy. Just a thought ;)
Is filling the rail and re-drilling it for the new hole not an option as well? Obviously wouldn't be able to use a weld due to possible warping, maybe filling with a JB-Weld? It's not like the hole itself takes any strain- it'd be the roll pin's job. As long as you got a proper fitting roll pin I can't see a reason why it'd be unfavorable? Seems like an alternative way rather than making a new fork, less measuring that needs to be done.
Here is a another option , ... grind/cut the shift pin off the production one, grind a groove around the shift fork where the new shift pin should go, then make a small fork with the new shift pin on top so that it slides over the freshly grooved collar and brace/weld in in place, should be much stronger than just welding a new pin on top, but much less work than making and fitting a whole new assembly, hope my explanation makes sense without a sketch .... Btw... got some NOS CAT 8N9803 strainer/filters which i have no use for, if you want them, drop me a message (email address in my channel about section, could not find your's), i'll send it to you foc.
Build it! It will be a great video.
Weld up the hole in the production rail, use the production fork but re-position to provide your alignment and re- drill the rail to accept the split pin
Great video as always thanks. I don't know any about transmission. But as good as you are with your machine skills
I will say build a new one.
The entire project is a great restoration and at times things have be made with new parts.
The 2 -3 fork is just 1/4 " steel,
Just lay the design out and bend it. Add the gusset from the 15° bend surface to the boss and add strength.
Weld the ne boss on but do not drill the roll pin hole till it's all dry fitted together to get the best location.
Build a new fork. Can’t wait to see video of it
Nice work. I'd lean towards making a new fork. While I'm at it a new rail as well that is similar to the prototype geometry since the goal here seems to be to keep the tractor as prototype as possible. If the detent needs to be moved back a bit, then do that on the new rail too.
Imagine what they would have done.
They wanted to get that running, so the bad attempt to fix the rail. That kind of worked for them with a WTF-attitude. But you want it to work perfectly. So use a production fork and rail, weld (or let weld) a new tab.
Keep the old rail and fork as a show and tell piece to demonstate that things can get wrong on prototypes.
My opinion would be a new fork and rail to match the prototype ones. Then you can make the pin holes where you need them. Thanks for the videos.
well you asked. i would just weld up the hole and re drill it. it fast simple and well keep's things moving along. there more work to getting everything lined up than one might think the 10x one has all ready "fit" it self to the gears so i don't any great amount of wear happen form hear on out. keep up the good work
I've got an option 5... But making a new shifter fork is still probably a better option. You could tap the original hole in the production rail, thread a bolt into it with loc-tite and turn it smooth with the shaft... Then, drill your new roll pin hole in the production shaft so that the fork is in alignment with the others. If I am looking correctly, the new drilled hole would be in contact with the bolt-filled hole in the shaft. The roll pin would prevent the fill-bolt from turning out - similar to the stitching method in repairing cracks in cast.... Not the most correct option, but another fairly simple option? Just a thought that may not have been thought of yet..... Instead of filling with a bolt, too... You could fill with a small chunk of bolt, then plug weld it and turn it smooth. Then re-drill your roll pin hole, if you were extremely concerned.... I guess that would be option 6? Lol. Love the videos, Squatch!
@@squatch253 Yup! I was thinking of that when I saw you dry fit the items and the holes weren't quite lined up.. I shouted "use the old fill-n-stitch method!"... I stand behind you no matter your choice. Making a new fork wouldn't be THAT tough, but would definitely take some time AND would probably be the most correct. Look forward to the next video.
If you ever plan to work this MM I would go #4 plan ,if you plan to trailer it around , do a parade with it then go #3 . Weld up the ex. Shaft lathe it back to size then make a new fork . Then keep it out of the field and no load on 2nd gear , long live MM ( Mans Machine ) well that's what I call mine .
Isn't the point of a prototype that the builders were testing theories and then improving on the design and then test those? You said, and are leaning toward making a new steel fork. Consider making a new rail as well taking into consideration where the past builders were grinding and brazing to properly locate the shift point. In the spirit of prototyping, build the next iteration of this shift rod/fork assembly learning from the past attempts.
If I was you (which I'm not but if I had your ability and knowhow) I'd go with #3 and just make a new one. Problem solved. But which one you go with will work. No shoddy work here. Thanks, Toby and Hi, Pop!
Neighbor's Minni always kicked out of third. What a ride if you were pointed downhill with a baler and wagon on behind.
Considering all the curve balls that tractor has given you, I'd hang the 5th fork on the wall as a trophy and do all production.
What ever you think is best to give you peace of mind