The old one is not an “old one” though. It’s heavily modified with huge tires and suspension. A true old one would have a wheel airborne, no lockers and spun helplessly. Not really a true comparison. That said, I agree, new one does fight trail (with tech).
gmultimedio it absolutely correct, ("The new defender fights against the trail. The old one is in his natural environment.") and I'd like to add that the old Defender fights against the highway at 70 MPH. Now that said if you are going to run trails like this all day long and have it in your backyard or on a trailer to the trails, the older solid axle Rovers are the best choice. But if you're going to drive from Denver to the Baja for 2 weeks of overlanding I'd choose the new one. 2 amazing vehicles and it was great to see them both on a difficult trail together thanks TFL for putting this together.
For someone who doesn't know a lot about offroading, it seems counterintuitive at first that solid axels are an advantage over independent suspension. I understand it now but a video that demonstrates it would be a great idea I think.
It's not all that advantageous I've got fully independent suspension on my rig and it goes anywhere I want it to. Really what its all about is the ability to put traction where it's needed to go - and having a triple locked axle arrangement means that all you need is one tire to have grabby and it'll go up and over, no matter how much articulation you have.
I own, wheel, and drive both. Solid axles excel in large articulating rock obstacles. Independent Suspension is light year ahead on road. Great news here is the New Defender is fully capable and this one doesn’t even have a locker, sliders, or smaller rims with a better tire choice. We’re building just such a Defender now... stay tuned!
Yes the old one is way better because it has four wheel drive and you don't care if you bust something because it's made of steel and cheap parts I think
The original Defender has diff locks which it should have as standard. The new "so called" Defender has a lot of technology which doesnt seem to work that well: lots of wheelspin (even no torsen diff's??) and lots of 3-wheeling because of rock hard airsuspension... 🤔🤔🤔
Car Los the old defender was crap to drive , no proper heating or cooling , crap driving position & cramped . I could go on about it being ,what’s the word .. that’s it ,crap.
@@scotiajinker8392 I have a '86 Range Rover Classic, from which the real Defender has the chassis and suspension from and it behaves quite well. Of course the driving postion is much better in a RRC. I only miss the diff locks... 😁 Today's standards are different of course. We need a lot of crap in our cars which we think we can't without. 😉
Interesting idea! I was at my Land Rover mechanic the other day and he had ten or twelve old defenders in his yard and not a single one was stock 😂 many owners see them as a form of adult automotive Mechano which is partly why the parts aftermarket for them is so extensive.
@@je1966 But the new ohne is way more expensive if you compare the stock ones, so see it as a comparison in price. In my opinion it would be interesting Andrea fair to compare fully tuned new one vs fully tuned old one
From a Land Rover owner Is a long depate about solid Axle vs independent suspension. In my experience solid Axle is by far the best for rock crawling and independent win on Mud and Sand .. Independent suspension is better on urban and driving City and solid Axle win the trophy on Flex but at the end no matter what type of AWD system you get .. with out lockers no make any difference.
Well said. This new defender doesn’t have the available locker. I love my old defenders but there isn’t comparison to ride quality over more varied terrain between them and my Range Rover. I can imagine it’s the same with the new defender.
Look at Timestamp 9:00 there you can See the ultimate disadvantage off a normal streetcar style intependend axle like a MC pherson ore similar like the New One has, compared to a solid axle, or an offroad style intependend axle like pinzgauer: See the bouncing an jumping auf the New One, compared to the smooth ride of the old One. This bouncing is poison for the traction, durability and safety in off road...
Gregor Schiller yes I agree I would have like to see an off road oriented independent suspension and screw the on road manners, there are enough other models of Land Rovers with great on road manners and decent off road chops
Hard to compare. The old one is heavily modded with huge offroad tires. To compare, fit the new ones with the same tires. Also the new one does not have the optional locking rear diff. Even if it’s electronic gimmickry, you could see it could have made a difference at 0:58. I think ‘out of the box’, the new one still is better. Looking forward to seeing them modded! This said, tho old one is incredibly cool and probably better as is.
Agreed. The 20” rims are dismal off road. We are now building our P400S with 33x12.5r18 Toyo Open Country MT’s - much better tire with significantly more sidewall allowing us to air down more as well. This one is locked with off road pkg, adding sliders and a 2” lift. Stay tuned!
To me, it looks like the new Defender traction control spins the wheels and chews up the path much more than the old, mechanical, diff locks do (or the diff locks on a Mercedes G-wagon). It might not matter once, but a track driven dozens of times over a season adds up to some significant erosion. For off-roaders, being green is more than just having eco- engine modes and emission controls, it needs to minimise the physical impact on the natural environment too. This Defender doesn't look like it does that well. Put another way, if you can afford one of these, it might be your own track that's being broken up and then washes away the next time big rains come.
This new defender in this didn’t have the locking center and rear diff which was why it was producing a bit more spin. If you’re going to do anything reasonable, the locking doffs are essential.
The 20” rims are the issue. We’re building a locked P400S HSE now with 33x12.5r18 Toyo Open Country MT’s... much better tire and significantly more sidewall. This one is gettting sliders and 2” lift... stay tuned!
It's a clear cut fact that the old hardened defender dudes won't like the new one simply because of the paradigm shift in the shape and tech, but for most of us we're glad that we have a new defender in land Rover lineups. Plus the former category makes a very small proportion of our population.... So no worries.. Go get the new 2020 defender without any hesitation
@@Denis-hk8he exactly! I think there's one more variant about to be launched by the fall or begining of 2021... Let's hope we figure out some cheaper aftermarket for the 2020 variant
@@afonsonobrega4337 the 70 series isn't that good off road. Poor articulation, leaf springs, poor starter motor location, underpowered in stock form and if you tune it you need to upgrade the clutch, manual hub lockers... I thought about buying one last year but they are a total rip off for what you get for money.
Two major issues with the new Defender on this terrain. One is independent suspension and the other is air suspension. On the old Defender, when you hit a bump the coil springs absorb quickly and smoothly and you roll up and over the bump without sacrificing too much momentum. You can see when the new Defender hits the same bumps, it shudders to a halt and can't move. Defenders have long been legendary for their ability to keep moving over bumps where other vehicles come to a halt, simply because the design of the suspension works spectacularly well (until you're on a road). Similarly, thanks to independent suspension, you have a lot of square edged points under the suspension to get you hooked up as we saw in the video. With an axle, everything is fairly curved and if you don't bang into it, you'll generally scrape over it fairly easily. On a downside though, damage to an axle is more serious. In relation to having axles, the old Defender has a lot of stiffness between the two wheels on each side. While much has been played about the new Defender chassis being much stiffer than the old Defender chassis, it is nowhere near as stiff as a solid axle. As such, when one wheel loses grip, you get a lot of bounce through the entire chassis and other wheels start to lose grip. This is similar to what happens on heavy goods vehicles when they lose grip and the chassis starts to flex because of the vehicle length. You get what is known as "axle tramp" as the grip shifts back and forth from one side to the other. You get a lot of bouncing about but no real progress. In a similar way you can see that the new Defender does this crazy bouncing because the chassis is having to deal with the slipping wheel rather than a solid axle providing a solid link across to the other tire which is firmly on the ground, and the harder air suspension does nothing to absorb and everything to transmit the bounce. The new Defender is on an even level with a Discovery, Range Rover or Range Rover Sport. It may have some slight advantages but it is very much the same breed. For the vast majority of what people will use the new Defender for, it is absolutely ideal. It is however a significant drop in off-road capability in comparison to the last of the older models which had traction control systems to help them overcome cross-axle loss of drive without requiring all round lockers. We can pretend our way around it all we want, but the Defender as a great "out of the box" off-roader is no longer.
Very, very unfair of Tommy not to give some context. Apparently this particular Defender does NOT have a rear diff lock. What is it’s off road specs ? Does it have any factory off road options, which r available ? What version of Terrain Response does it have ?
In this edit for off-road it may not be in there. But in the main video they explained multiple times that the launch edi6isnt available with the rear locker
cascivic while this one doesn’t have it, it’s incorrect that it can’t be ordered with it. You can get the active rear diff package on the first edition.
cascivic this was one of the first 300 launch units to hit the US so no rear locker on this one. We’re currently up-fitting an HSE P400 with off road pkg and rear locker with 33x12.5r18 KM3’s, sliders, and 2” lift... stay tuned! 18” rims, tires, and much better tires will unlock even more capability👍🏽
Steve Burt fantastic stuff Steve. This spec is awesome. Looking forward to the video on this Defender. Its very poor form of so many ‘experts’ to make unfair comments about the Defenders off road ability. 🤷🏻♂️🤷🏻♂️
once again the new defender looks nice but it is not really a defender anymore it is a disguised discovery 4 :( i love my old defender 110 and discovery 2 would not buy one of these new ones for sure, Grenadier here i come.
If you compare the two one has to understand that there is significant mods done to the old Defender .It more than likely has lower diff ratios and gear ratios which in this situation would be a huge advantage over the new Defender stock. The old one is set up for crawling ,so you have a stock new Defender competing against a purpose built crawl machine albiet with highway ratios in high range .to compensate the low ratio diffs.Its like a boat .it all comes down to the degrees of pitch and gearbox ratios.If you compare the two without bias the new one hands down .
Yeah.. It sure does slip a lot before the computer steps in to help... There should be a switch which will make the "slip sensor" much more sensitive, that way as soon as it slips it would react by grabbing the brakes----- Like immediately. Not after spinning its wheels for 6 full rotations and it still hasn't reacted.
@@calholli there is a switch where you can decide how much wheel spin. The driver Steve who has other videos of the new defender has stated that he likes more wheel spin.
I have owned both, and the biggest problem with the old Def is the open diffs and loss of traction - either in an axle-twister or when the vehicle is on an extreme side slope. This is not a fair comparison as the old Def has ARB lockers, as well as oversized tyres. At 9:05, the old Def would have been stuck without those mods.
Agreed - as stock, the new Def would win. With difflocks and extended articulation the old would win. But let me throw something else in - I took my new Defender down to the Atlas Mountains and the Sahara, a 3000 mil round trip.. This would have been very difficult with an old Devender. The 2020 was brilliant, off and on road.
Guys - thanks for the real world look. Gotta say very disappointed in what I saw from the new defender but I have to ask - what mode was the traction control in? I have an LR4 and have never had anything close to that much wheel spin. In fact, in rock crawl mode, wheel spin is almost imperceptible so that video just looked baffling. Maybe they’ve totally jacked their new traction control or the whole rear locker thing but that was painful to watch. It really looked like their old original traction control on the first D2s with no center diff lock.
Man I CAN’T WAIT for the Bronco vs Defender vs Wrangler videos next year. I just hope a generous Bronco owner loans you their car so TFL can make one too 😂
I’m impressed overall. The fact that he’d take a brand new Defender off road is great. I did this exact trail a few days before this in an H1 Hummer. There are plenty of rocks to bang up the bottom of that new vehicle.
a pleasure to watch the old Defenders suspension working over the Rocks! The new Defender? no comment ha ha ha! You know how often air suspension sensores in the Range and Disco failed? Often!
I really think the new defender would have done better if the dropped the height setting a bit. It was bouncing around all over and had almost no wheel travel. But if you drop it just a bit, the suspension is soft enough to work better.
Please stop referring to a Johnson Rod TRICK as a lifted. It still has the same ride height as every other defender when off road. Aero becomes normal, normal becomes OR1, OR1 becomes OR2 and OR2 does nothing. You guys have been describing this incorrectly since you bought the LR3. It allows larger tires because it stops lowering so low.
@@TFLclassics It's only a lift to the next setting, the highest setting does nothing because it's already there when selecting OR1 or normal depending on the johnson rod length. A rod tricking a sensor is not going to make the air strut increase its overall length. A lift would actually gain you ground clearance in all settings, but that would require a spacer on top of the air strut. Your only ground clearance increase is from larger tires.
I always wonder why LR didn't cut the Def in two and stuck 4-5" in the middle. They could have made it 10x more comfortable and safe without losing the essence of the vehicle. Didn't they do that with the Morris Minor?
WARNING BEFORE WATCHING: the old one is modified. this is not a proper comparison. however, it is a decent video to see the new defender’s capabilities off road.
I wonder if in the new defender they are using the 'configurable terrain response' setting where they can change the amount of slip. Seems to be a lot of wheel spinning and grabbing from the brakes.
Even a stock old defender would've moonwalked through that trail. The new defender is showing us the same old story with airbag rovers. On their tippy toes nervously bouncing around and losing traction.
The new Defender was developed as a new Discovery and then they changed the name. It has showed in this and previous videos (with non off-road tires as well) that it seems pretty weak off-road for the money.
How can you compare it to something that never rolled off the production line with any of that special on it!? Pimp up a new Defended and run the test again...
That’s a fair call, but having driven a non modded old model there are driving techniques and tricks that can mostly get around the short comings of a stock original. But I agree that the AUD$120k new model is better out of the box than the AUD$55k old model, but only just. However, with $10k of mods the old model will far and away out perform the new model - off-road only though as on road the old model has always been a death trap.
My 97 Isuzu Rodeo would definitely go on that Trail and keep up fairly easy. 5 speed and has 4 low also.. manual transfer case, but with shift on the fly auto locking front hubs. No diff locks anywhere. Its a tough little set up. I"ve had it off road quite a bit and it's never broke on me.. At 280k miles the engine finally spun a crank bearing. I put another engine in it from a used $500 rodeo that I bought that had a bad auto transmission-- which only had 150k miles. Drove it daily for a couple years and then the timing belt crapped out on me on the swapped engine-- So as soon as I get a new belt put on, its gonna be ready to kick the trails yet again..
The old Defender, or just Defender, has more much motricity and wheel teavel. Instead of that the new one with air suspension in higher position doesn't let the suspension travel as it should do. Looks a modern Humpy Dumpty...
The "new" one's airsuspension is pumped up high on its baloons so it doesn't hit to much. Drawback is that the suspension is much to hard and doesnt folllow the terrain well, result: wheelspin. It seems to have terrible small wheel too.. 🤔
The fact this thing doesn't have lockers is absurd. What was their slogan? "Best 4x4xfar??". Yeah, not even close. The thing is lifting and spinning tires all over the place. I'll take a bronco at half the cost
The new Defender didn't look very controllable in the rock crawling sections. The traction control system appears to need a lot of revs for it to activate.
On rocky terrain of course solid axles win, but as they said, that was modified vs almost stock (those tyres came from factory). Trust me, the new defender is a very capable vehicle and I do believe that with the right mods it'd be unstoppable while also being comfortable and luxurious.
Very interesting vid👍new Defender is struggling with electric 4WD aid but wondering if Land Rover try make Defender not just off road but good on road? Would adding weight at each end would improve off road or modify crawl ratios? Be interesting to see Bronco vs Defender on same trail.
Bit confused. Your using a standard new defender VS a heavily modified old defender? Take a standard old defender up there and see what happens? Not really a fair comparison.
New one with no direct locker makes it a hand full imo! If the wheels would actually lock instead of a visco or whatever their using now would make it a better off roader! Like in everything now is yuppyised!
W W hey, you dropped this: 👑 You are absolutely right. I am a newbie, and to be fair I never did a real off-road adventure, ever. I’m planning on doing it asap. But the RRS with the terrain response is so good for me. Just a tiny patience and you are out of a lot of really tricky situations, without being an expert. Just imagine what a car that capable could do in the right hands.
@@WW-wf8tu Didn't the old defender left less damage on the trails and tires? Tires weren't spinning as much as on the new one and the old had a way easier time.
It’s not a viscous diff, it’s traction control through wheel speed sensors and braking. You can get a true electronic rear locking differential but this one does not have that option
Denis Yes but the old defender was upgraded and tuned for that specific reason. So it’s not a fair comparison. If you take a stock defender vs a stock new defender, the new defender I think will be easier to ride on.
Solid axle, coil springs and lockers is such a hard combination to beat. The new defender looks nice but THAT design should have been the new Discovery. the Defender certainly doesn't look like an outback tourer any more and those airbags look so exposed. poke a stick through that in the middle of nowhere and youre boned.
Its a bit unfair with suspension al the way up on the new def... That the old is not stock is OK, the new DEF is a much bigger problem as you can't add anything to it... even a winch is an issue and needs to be done at LR.. And just wait till one of the air suspension sensors on the new DEF gets hit by a rock... Then its game over for the new Def... So, guys wait till the Grenadier is out and hang on to you old DEF. I have one and will keep it TD5 110
Great episode the yellow NAS cool 😎 👍 it would be great to see a standard 1960’s jeep and landrover against the new defender to see if the technology in the new vehicle can be better off road. Of course the new vehicle is better on tarmac but I think the older vehicles would keep up with it and it’s gadgets in the dirt.
we already see an older yellow defender and a brand new defender and the results are clear that the new defender sucks. so why go through anymore trouble
@@healthyamerican Because this is newdefender doesn't have the rear diff option and has been modified to significantly reduce the performance by making it look 'lifted'
@@blaises1748 i dont understand your point. they didnt lift this defender for looks, they lifted it for more ground clearance. How can you say that it impeded its performance? If it didnt have the added clearance it would have done even more poorly
@@healthyamerican Looks like you've never been off road... Geometry is hardly the limiter in most off road situations. Suspension articulation is seriously hindered with the lift rods, meaning you don't really have a suspension and can't keep the tires on the ground. Notice how the wheels never tuck into the arches...
@@blaises1748 you're saying the defender would have cleared those rocks better if there was less ground clearance. Thats a new one. Please forward your idea to tflc. See ya
The new defender fights againt the trail. The old one is in his natural environment.
The old one is not an “old one” though. It’s heavily modified with huge tires and suspension. A true old one would have a wheel airborne, no lockers and spun helplessly. Not really a true comparison. That said, I agree, new one does fight trail (with tech).
Old Defender for life
I can not help a feeling, that this crossover on steroids was little bit suffering here ....
gmultimedio
it absolutely correct, ("The new defender fights against the trail. The old one is in his natural environment.") and I'd like to add that the old Defender fights against the highway at 70 MPH. Now that said if you are going to run trails like this all day long and have it in your backyard or on a trailer to the trails, the older solid axle Rovers are the best choice. But if you're going to drive from Denver to the Baja for 2 weeks of overlanding I'd choose the new one. 2 amazing vehicles and it was great to see them both on a difficult trail together thanks TFL for putting this together.
For someone who doesn't know a lot about offroading, it seems counterintuitive at first that solid axels are an advantage over independent suspension. I understand it now but a video that demonstrates it would be a great idea I think.
@@WW-wf8tu I just thought it would be an interesting video for them to present.
It's not all that advantageous I've got fully independent suspension on my rig and it goes anywhere I want it to. Really what its all about is the ability to put traction where it's needed to go - and having a triple locked axle arrangement means that all you need is one tire to have grabby and it'll go up and over, no matter how much articulation you have.
@@nothingtoseaheardammit ifs and solid are pretty much of a muchness when it comes straight ability it's just that the solid is more durable over time
I own, wheel, and drive both. Solid axles excel in large articulating rock obstacles. Independent Suspension is light year ahead on road. Great news here is the New Defender is fully capable and this one doesn’t even have a locker, sliders, or smaller rims with a better tire choice. We’re building just such a Defender now... stay tuned!
@@kirbycairo there is one on TH-cam by that Australian off roader guy... He has like millions of views in each of his videos. Just search it
In the new defender the lift kit decreases off-road performance, in my opinion. It has no more travel and has to use traction control every second.
Yes the old one is way better because it has four wheel drive and you don't care if you bust something because it's made of steel and cheap parts I think
@@neilmurphy845 and also the old one going up in value
@@moisescastillo217 that's good
How can you compare these 2 ? The old one has been heavily modified
yes and the new one costs 70,000 euros at the entry level ...
The new one is packed with top notch tech. Defender has none. Equally unfair.
The original Defender has diff locks which it should have as standard.
The new "so called" Defender has a lot of technology which doesnt seem to work that well: lots of wheelspin (even no torsen diff's??) and lots of 3-wheeling because of rock hard airsuspension... 🤔🤔🤔
Car Los the old defender was crap to drive , no proper heating or cooling , crap driving position & cramped . I could go on about it being ,what’s the word .. that’s it ,crap.
@@scotiajinker8392 I have a '86 Range Rover Classic, from which the real Defender has the chassis and suspension from and it behaves quite well. Of course the driving postion is much better in a RRC. I only miss the diff locks... 😁
Today's standards are different of course. We need a lot of crap in our cars which we think we can't without. 😉
It would be nice to do a stock old vs stock new comparison !
Agreed
Agreed it’s not a fair fight
Agree, because this is not a valid comparison!
Interesting idea! I was at my Land Rover mechanic the other day and he had ten or twelve old defenders in his yard and not a single one was stock 😂 many owners see them as a form of adult automotive Mechano which is partly why the parts aftermarket for them is so extensive.
@@je1966 But the new ohne is way more expensive if you compare the stock ones, so see it as a comparison in price. In my opinion it would be interesting Andrea fair to compare fully tuned new one vs fully tuned old one
Go and get a stock classic defender 110 and do it again
and the clasic defender 110 will still beat it
@@t3ddy148 don t think so it was quite a disaster at standard
@Ricky keep it chill I love the original defender. But it was far from perfect 😉
@Ricky no doubt about that man. Keep it chill.
@@t3ddy148 no, no, imposible
From a Land Rover owner
Is a long depate about solid Axle vs independent suspension. In my experience solid Axle is by far the best for rock crawling and independent win on Mud and Sand .. Independent suspension is better on urban and driving City and solid Axle win the trophy on Flex but at the end no matter what type of AWD system you get .. with out lockers no make any difference.
Well said. This new defender doesn’t have the available locker. I love my old defenders but there isn’t comparison to ride quality over more varied terrain between them and my Range Rover. I can imagine it’s the same with the new defender.
Look at Timestamp 9:00 there you can See the ultimate disadvantage off a normal streetcar style intependend axle like a MC pherson ore similar like the New One has, compared to a solid axle, or an offroad style intependend axle like pinzgauer: See the bouncing an jumping auf the New One, compared to the smooth ride of the old One. This bouncing is poison for the traction, durability and safety in off road...
Gregor Schiller yes I agree I would have like to see an off road oriented independent suspension and screw the on road manners, there are enough other models of Land Rovers with great on road manners and decent off road chops
Hard to compare. The old one is heavily modded with huge offroad tires. To compare, fit the new ones with the same tires. Also the new one does not have the optional locking rear diff. Even if it’s electronic gimmickry, you could see it could have made a difference at 0:58. I think ‘out of the box’, the new one still is better. Looking forward to seeing them modded! This said, tho old one is incredibly cool and probably better as is.
There’s one thing that needs to be the same in tests..... and that’s tyres!
Agreed. The 20” rims are dismal off road. We are now building our P400S with 33x12.5r18 Toyo Open Country MT’s - much better tire with significantly more sidewall allowing us to air down more as well. This one is locked with off road pkg, adding sliders and a 2” lift. Stay tuned!
I love the old gal, she don’t seem to think a lot about what she’s doing, she just does it, 180 k on her what?👍👍👍
That old 1 is a beast, the new 1 you can keep.
Even a stock ‘old’ defender would walk over that trail like a walk in the park.
Yeah nah. It wouldn't.
@@scottlampe70 Yea it really would
@@t3ddy148 you would have broken an axle trying to get over that difficult rock.
@@scottlampe70 you really wouldn't, you would more likely damage the new defenders air suspension than damage an old defenders axle
@@t3ddy148 I broke like 3 when I was in the army. When the wheel spins in low range and then gets a good grip the axles just go bang.
To me, it looks like the new Defender traction control spins the wheels and chews up the path much more than the old, mechanical, diff locks do (or the diff locks on a Mercedes G-wagon).
It might not matter once, but a track driven dozens of times over a season adds up to some significant erosion.
For off-roaders, being green is more than just having eco- engine modes and emission controls, it needs to minimise the physical impact on the natural environment too. This Defender doesn't look like it does that well.
Put another way, if you can afford one of these, it might be your own track that's being broken up and then washes away the next time big rains come.
This new defender in this didn’t have the locking center and rear diff which was why it was producing a bit more spin. If you’re going to do anything reasonable, the locking doffs are essential.
Next locked build will be done soon... stay tuned!
Just so painful to watch that new Defender in skateboard mode.
Agreed - it doesn’t look like it would be comfortable at all to bounce around in that thing,
Agreed as well ; it seems to be suffering each inch of the trail.The old one on the other hand is at home. No comparaison.
@@fredmarghem2120 the old one is nowhere near stock like the new one
The 20” rims are the issue. We’re building a locked P400S HSE now with 33x12.5r18 Toyo Open Country MT’s... much better tire and significantly more sidewall. This one is gettting sliders and 2” lift... stay tuned!
Chalen the new one is packed with high tech offroad gizmos. Equally unfair.
Man I couldn’t imagine off-roading where the vehicle doesn’t respond directly to throttle input.
It's a clear cut fact that the old hardened defender dudes won't like the new one simply because of the paradigm shift in the shape and tech, but for most of us we're glad that we have a new defender in land Rover lineups. Plus the former category makes a very small proportion of our population.... So no worries.. Go get the new 2020 defender without any hesitation
Yea but the price is ridiculous and if you break something while offloading it's gonna cost a fortune.
@@Denis-hk8he exactly! I think there's one more variant about to be launched by the fall or begining of 2021... Let's hope we figure out some cheaper aftermarket for the 2020 variant
ahhh great. more disasters from 2020
I want to see an Ineos Grenadier against a heavily modded Classic Defender then we will see if there’s a suitable replacement.
The Ineos looks like it is coming with diff locks as standard and 16" rims so they are starting off right.
Just buy a 70 series lc. Still being manufactured today.
@@afonsonobrega4337 Check out Toyota forums and you will find they not as good as you think !
@@afonsonobrega4337 yes toyota is great... But the model and the shape of the design...zero..if you compare to something like defender...
@@afonsonobrega4337 the 70 series isn't that good off road. Poor articulation, leaf springs, poor starter motor location, underpowered in stock form and if you tune it you need to upgrade the clutch, manual hub lockers...
I thought about buying one last year but they are a total rip off for what you get for money.
1:13 that's what I worry about the new defender.
I've driven pass a few new defender owners and not a SINGLE one even waved back. That says enough about the type of owners that buy the new defender.
Two major issues with the new Defender on this terrain. One is independent suspension and the other is air suspension.
On the old Defender, when you hit a bump the coil springs absorb quickly and smoothly and you roll up and over the bump without sacrificing too much momentum. You can see when the new Defender hits the same bumps, it shudders to a halt and can't move. Defenders have long been legendary for their ability to keep moving over bumps where other vehicles come to a halt, simply because the design of the suspension works spectacularly well (until you're on a road). Similarly, thanks to independent suspension, you have a lot of square edged points under the suspension to get you hooked up as we saw in the video. With an axle, everything is fairly curved and if you don't bang into it, you'll generally scrape over it fairly easily. On a downside though, damage to an axle is more serious.
In relation to having axles, the old Defender has a lot of stiffness between the two wheels on each side. While much has been played about the new Defender chassis being much stiffer than the old Defender chassis, it is nowhere near as stiff as a solid axle. As such, when one wheel loses grip, you get a lot of bounce through the entire chassis and other wheels start to lose grip. This is similar to what happens on heavy goods vehicles when they lose grip and the chassis starts to flex because of the vehicle length. You get what is known as "axle tramp" as the grip shifts back and forth from one side to the other. You get a lot of bouncing about but no real progress. In a similar way you can see that the new Defender does this crazy bouncing because the chassis is having to deal with the slipping wheel rather than a solid axle providing a solid link across to the other tire which is firmly on the ground, and the harder air suspension does nothing to absorb and everything to transmit the bounce.
The new Defender is on an even level with a Discovery, Range Rover or Range Rover Sport. It may have some slight advantages but it is very much the same breed. For the vast majority of what people will use the new Defender for, it is absolutely ideal. It is however a significant drop in off-road capability in comparison to the last of the older models which had traction control systems to help them overcome cross-axle loss of drive without requiring all round lockers.
We can pretend our way around it all we want, but the Defender as a great "out of the box" off-roader is no longer.
Also they lost the amazing looks
You should ask that guy if he would buy the new Defender. As someone who actually goes offroad I bet his answer would be a resounding NO
Very, very unfair of Tommy not to give some context. Apparently this particular Defender does NOT have a rear diff lock. What is it’s off road specs ? Does it have any factory off road options, which r available ? What version of Terrain Response does it have ?
In this edit for off-road it may not be in there. But in the main video they explained multiple times that the launch edi6isnt available with the rear locker
cascivic while this one doesn’t have it, it’s incorrect that it can’t be ordered with it. You can get the active rear diff package on the first edition.
cascivic this was one of the first 300 launch units to hit the US so no rear locker on this one. We’re currently up-fitting an HSE P400 with off road pkg and rear locker with 33x12.5r18 KM3’s, sliders, and 2” lift... stay tuned! 18” rims, tires, and much better tires will unlock even more capability👍🏽
Corey Anderson Correct... but not on the initial 300 units for the US that we’re spec’d by Land Rover.
Steve Burt fantastic stuff Steve. This spec is awesome. Looking forward to the video on this Defender. Its very poor form of so many ‘experts’ to make unfair comments about the Defenders off road ability. 🤷🏻♂️🤷🏻♂️
Maybe a new 2 door when available would be one to compare in the future..
We plan to!
once again the new defender looks nice but it is not really a defender anymore it is a disguised discovery 4 :( i love my old defender 110 and discovery 2 would not buy one of these new ones for sure, Grenadier here i come.
If you compare the two one has to understand that there is significant mods done to the old Defender .It more than likely has lower diff ratios and gear ratios which in this situation would be a huge advantage over the new Defender stock. The old one is set up for crawling ,so you have a stock new Defender competing against a purpose built crawl machine albiet with highway ratios in high range .to compensate the low ratio diffs.Its like a boat .it all comes down to the degrees of pitch and gearbox ratios.If you compare the two without bias the new one hands down .
wish that new Defender came with lockers.
First Edition does not have them but the new Defenders with a locking diff come later in the fall.
and different diff ratios.
Yeah.. It sure does slip a lot before the computer steps in to help... There should be a switch which will make the "slip sensor" much more sensitive, that way as soon as it slips it would react by grabbing the brakes----- Like immediately. Not after spinning its wheels for 6 full rotations and it still hasn't reacted.
@@calholli there is a switch where you can decide how much wheel spin. The driver Steve who has other videos of the new defender has stated that he likes more wheel spin.
Stay tuned.... building our locked P400S HSE now with 33x12.5r18’s, sliders, off road pkg, 2” lift👍🏽
I thought the new one had a rock crawl mode where the centre diff and rear diff are permanently locked? The disco 5 has.
I think it's an option you have to add. My friend was telling me he was at the dealer and the one left didn't have it
Ha haaa, this man did some homework and got some series doors for his 90 😁👍👍
just curious how much of the new defender's off-road tech wizardry was employed. Did the driver have an understanding of how to drive it off-road?
I have owned both, and the biggest problem with the old Def is the open diffs and loss of traction - either in an axle-twister or when the vehicle is on an extreme side slope. This is not a fair comparison as the old Def has ARB lockers, as well as oversized tyres. At 9:05, the old Def would have been stuck without those mods.
Agreed - as stock, the new Def would win. With difflocks and extended articulation the old would win. But let me throw something else in - I took my new Defender down to the Atlas Mountains and the Sahara, a 3000 mil round trip.. This would have been very difficult with an old Devender. The 2020 was brilliant, off and on road.
Guys - thanks for the real world look. Gotta say very disappointed in what I saw from the new defender but I have to ask - what mode was the traction control in? I have an LR4 and have never had anything close to that much wheel spin. In fact, in rock crawl mode, wheel spin is almost imperceptible so that video just looked baffling. Maybe they’ve totally jacked their new traction control or the whole rear locker thing but that was painful to watch. It really looked like their old original traction control on the first D2s with no center diff lock.
I'd like to know how the new Defender compares to that 4Runner I saw in that group.
The 4runner was basically there to make sure they make it back down safely
they both are overrated off road
We wheel our 4 Jeeps, 4Runner and now this New Defender. The 4Runner and the New Defender are very similar off road.
What about the 4Runner? Im sure there's way more people interested in seeing that 4R get through that trail than the over priced yellow farm vehicle.
And at the end of the trial the new Defender had 46 fault codes to clear !
Man I CAN’T WAIT for the Bronco vs Defender vs Wrangler videos next year. I just hope a generous Bronco owner loans you their car so TFL can make one too 😂
Stay tuned 😎👍
I’m impressed overall. The fact that he’d take a brand new Defender off road is great. I did this exact trail a few days before this in an H1 Hummer. There are plenty of rocks to bang up the bottom of that new vehicle.
a pleasure to watch the old Defenders suspension working over the Rocks! The new Defender? no comment ha ha ha! You know how often air suspension sensores in the Range and Disco failed? Often!
I really think the new defender would have done better if the dropped the height setting a bit. It was bouncing around all over and had almost no wheel travel. But if you drop it just a bit, the suspension is soft enough to work better.
ALOT of driver error with the new defender. I also think it would have done better with a better driver
Please stop referring to a Johnson Rod TRICK as a lifted. It still has the same ride height as every other defender when off road. Aero becomes normal, normal becomes OR1, OR1 becomes OR2 and OR2 does nothing. You guys have been describing this incorrectly since you bought the LR3. It allows larger tires because it stops lowering so low.
It is, for all intensive purposes, a lift. Especially for those who are accustomed to standard springs.
@@TFLclassics It's only a lift to the next setting, the highest setting does nothing because it's already there when selecting OR1 or normal depending on the johnson rod length. A rod tricking a sensor is not going to make the air strut increase its overall length. A lift would actually gain you ground clearance in all settings, but that would require a spacer on top of the air strut. Your only ground clearance increase is from larger tires.
While I much prefer the old one, I'm honestly impressed with how well the new one did
I want to love the new one but the more I see it in action the less I like it, which is sad and disappointing.
was the lift on the new defender just rods to jack up the suspension, or a real subframe lift? former doesn't count as a lift in my book...
Why didn't you lock the diff on the original defender?
The defender is a decent vehicle but it should be called discovery not defender.
Chris McBurney Yes it should, get yourself an Ineos Grenadier if you want back to basics.
I always wonder why LR didn't cut the Def in two and stuck 4-5" in the middle.
They could have made it 10x more comfortable and safe without losing the essence of the vehicle. Didn't they do that with the Morris Minor?
Does anyone know if you can now export the old defenders to the US or are they still off limits?
Awesome content as always, guys! Thank you. Are those 20s or 19s on the new defender?
WARNING BEFORE WATCHING: the old one is modified. this is not a proper comparison. however, it is a decent video to see the new defender’s capabilities off road.
What is the rectangular box that is attached to RR upper Quarter of new Defender?
To hold wet cargo... I highly DON’T recommend it. Can’t see out that window and it just brushes against trees in the trail.
I wonder if in the new defender they are using the 'configurable terrain response' setting where they can change the amount of slip. Seems to be a lot of wheel spinning and grabbing from the brakes.
I think the driver isn't doing a propper job.
How can u compare modified n stock model?
With a video on TFL, that's how. Duh...
You must change the title of this video. It s the new stock vs a fully tuned old defender. Which performed better... what a surprise.
Even a stock old defender would've moonwalked through that trail. The new defender is showing us the same old story with airbag rovers. On their tippy toes nervously bouncing around and losing traction.
You're making fun of a stock vehicle bro... if you only care about one feature, then enjoy hauling it to the trailhead in your Cybertruck.
Without lockers? NOPE
Wow, that 2020 Defender really struggled. Where's the progress in this? Such a shame...
Cheers
The new Defender I believe was the stock standard and did not have the optional rear diff lock.
The new Defender was developed as a new Discovery and then they changed the name. It has showed in this and previous videos (with non off-road tires as well) that it seems pretty weak off-road for the money.
Ain't he the nice guy? "A formidable rig"..
Against what, Nathan's Samurai?! Hahaha.
How can you compare it to something that never rolled off the production line with any of that special on it!? Pimp up a new Defended and run the test again...
From England I wont be getting rid of my Defender 90 any time soon Land Rover have just built another SUV.
Go and get a standard 110 for a comparison not a highly modified 90
That’s a fair call, but having driven a non modded old model there are driving techniques and tricks that can mostly get around the short comings of a stock original. But I agree that the AUD$120k new model is better out of the box than the AUD$55k old model, but only just. However, with $10k of mods the old model will far and away out perform the new model - off-road only though as on road the old model has always been a death trap.
The new Land rover pretender...
The least graceful way to go off road.
I'd rather have a fiat panda 4x4.
Why so much tire slippage on the 2020?
My 97 Isuzu Rodeo would definitely go on that Trail and keep up fairly easy. 5 speed and has 4 low also.. manual transfer case, but with shift on the fly auto locking front hubs. No diff locks anywhere. Its a tough little set up. I"ve had it off road quite a bit and it's never broke on me.. At 280k miles the engine finally spun a crank bearing. I put another engine in it from a used $500 rodeo that I bought that had a bad auto transmission-- which only had 150k miles. Drove it daily for a couple years and then the timing belt crapped out on me on the swapped engine-- So as soon as I get a new belt put on, its gonna be ready to kick the trails yet again..
Good to see some "Driving Finesse". Not just "Bash and Barge".
Would it be possible to install a front locker on the new Defender?
The old Defender, or just Defender, has more much motricity and wheel teavel.
Instead of that the new one with air suspension in higher position doesn't let the suspension travel as it should do. Looks a modern Humpy Dumpty...
live axles have better wheel articulation
How’d the 4Runner do?
please, no more electronicons with Fake locks in Fake Axles , it makes me nauseous.... :)
The "new" one's airsuspension is pumped up high on its baloons so it doesn't hit to much.
Drawback is that the suspension is much to hard and doesnt folllow the terrain well, result: wheelspin.
It seems to have terrible small wheel too.. 🤔
The fact this thing doesn't have lockers is absurd. What was their slogan? "Best 4x4xfar??". Yeah, not even close. The thing is lifting and spinning tires all over the place. I'll take a bronco at half the cost
The new Defender didn't look very controllable in the rock crawling sections. The traction control system appears to need a lot of revs for it to activate.
lol one of these is having a much easier time than the other
On rocky terrain of course solid axles win, but as they said, that was modified vs almost stock (those tyres came from factory). Trust me, the new defender is a very capable vehicle and I do believe that with the right mods it'd be unstoppable while also being comfortable and luxurious.
you guys have to do a defender vs touareg video!
Very interesting vid👍new Defender is struggling with electric 4WD aid but wondering if Land Rover try make Defender not just off road but good on road? Would adding weight at each end would improve off road or modify crawl ratios? Be interesting to see Bronco vs Defender on same trail.
A three inch tall rock literally held the new one up twice. It gets hung up on everything and always has a tire in the air lmao
Why leaving the flat easy terrain and chose the rocky one if not needed?
Because they wanted to test the car. If they would go on easy flat terrain it would be boring.
the new one did great for having no lockers. tons of moments when the wheel is off the ground and it barely stuttered
Bit confused. Your using a standard new defender VS a heavily modified old defender? Take a standard old defender up there and see what happens? Not really a fair comparison.
New one with no direct locker makes it a hand full imo! If the wheels would actually lock instead of a visco or whatever their using now would make it a better off roader! Like in everything now is yuppyised!
Yup, but that system gets the job done anyways. Just be a bit patient
W W hey, you dropped this: 👑
You are absolutely right. I am a newbie, and to be fair I never did a real off-road adventure, ever. I’m planning on doing it asap.
But the RRS with the terrain response is so good for me. Just a tiny patience and you are out of a lot of really tricky situations, without being an expert.
Just imagine what a car that capable could do in the right hands.
@@WW-wf8tu Didn't the old defender left less damage on the trails and tires? Tires weren't spinning as much as on the new one and the old had a way easier time.
It’s not a viscous diff, it’s traction control through wheel speed sensors and braking. You can get a true electronic rear locking differential but this one does not have that option
Denis Yes but the old defender was upgraded and tuned for that specific reason. So it’s not a fair comparison.
If you take a stock defender vs a stock new defender, the new defender I think will be easier to ride on.
Landrover: 21st century adventures dont need solid axles.
New one struggles
Aha! The cars are not equal!! The old Defender has been prepared for off-road trails. So, this VIDEO IS INVALID!! 👹👹👹👹👹👹
Well the new stock defender can compete with a highly modified old defender so...
BTW you mentioned the old defender being expensive, thats because you are in the US. they are much cheaper in the EU.
Please try your tough T and this new defender. Thanks a lot.
Solid axle, coil springs and lockers is such a hard combination to beat. The new defender looks nice but THAT design should have been the new Discovery. the Defender certainly doesn't look like an outback tourer any more and those airbags look so exposed. poke a stick through that in the middle of nowhere and youre boned.
The video shows something different than what the audio part says.
Thank god you brought a 4Runner when things get tough.
As wonderful the new Defenders are with the technology, I'd still go with the D90 and a few mods with a good driver, it'll always surpass the new.
That is not a new defender but a new discovery. The real defender is just like John Rambo. Defender don't worry its the LAST BLOOD
Its a bit unfair with suspension al the way up on the new def... That the old is not stock is OK, the new DEF is a much bigger problem as you can't add anything to it... even a winch is an issue and needs to be done at LR.. And just wait till one of the air suspension sensors on the new DEF gets hit by a rock... Then its game over for the new Def... So, guys wait till the Grenadier is out and hang on to you old DEF. I have one and will keep it TD5 110
Thanks for the video, would be nice to include an LR4 to see how it does :)
the new defender is an Lr4. only with a defender badge
Of course the old Defender is the winner!💪💪
I won't be surprised if the old one does better
New defender needs Explorer Package
Great episode the yellow NAS cool 😎 👍 it would be great to see a standard 1960’s jeep and landrover against the new defender to see if the technology in the new vehicle can be better off road. Of course the new vehicle is better on tarmac but I think the older vehicles would keep up with it and it’s gadgets in the dirt.
we already see an older yellow defender and a brand new defender and the results are clear that the new defender sucks. so why go through anymore trouble
@@healthyamerican Because this is newdefender doesn't have the rear diff option and has been modified to significantly reduce the performance by making it look 'lifted'
@@blaises1748 i dont understand your point. they didnt lift this defender for looks, they lifted it for more ground clearance. How can you say that it impeded its performance? If it didnt have the added clearance it would have done even more poorly
@@healthyamerican Looks like you've never been off road... Geometry is hardly the limiter in most off road situations. Suspension articulation is seriously hindered with the lift rods, meaning you don't really have a suspension and can't keep the tires on the ground. Notice how the wheels never tuck into the arches...
@@blaises1748 you're saying the defender would have cleared those rocks better if there was less ground clearance. Thats a new one. Please forward your idea to tflc. See ya