Ryan - The 08-502-8 cam should be fine installed dot to dot. Degreeing the cam is just to make sure that the dots on the timing set are in exactly the right spot and the cam grind is correct. It's really just a more precise way to install a camshaft. We do recommend that customers degree the cam, but it is not absolutely necessary. Thank you.
We are glad you were able to get some good information from this video. You only have to check the events on cylinder #1 to make sure the cam is phased properly to the crankshaft. Thanks for watching!
For those unsure of doing this, it really is just basic math. Just print out a step by step you can read off of, and you'll be fine. One thing that should be mentioned for radical lift cams, is to check valve to piston clearance while your degreeing. I have seen a few people fail to do this a regret it later.
At 3:17 into the video, he shows removing the PPS tool. DO NOT yet remove the PPS tool !!!!! Instead, move your wire pointer (or move the degree wheel) as to accommodate for the error. As shown at 3:43 into the video he moves the degree wheel as to align the ZERO with the wire pointer. At that point, you should once again rotate the crankshaft in either direction for your final "stop" check. Once an equal split has been accurately established, now you can safely remove the PPS tool. When the crankshaf is now rotated so that the ZERO aligns with the wire pointer, you will have located your TRUE # 1 TDC. Don't take short cuts..... shoot for accuracy, even if it takes you a bit longer.
Never put zero at max lift; zero should be at the base circle. The guy doe not understand that max lift is actually the center line so would be just that but is not possible to measure with accuracy.
@@TheReverb1 Just to add a bit of clarity; TDC for each cylinder can be found twice during 4 engine cycles. When setting up for true # 1 TDC (for camshaft indexing or ignition timing), we are targetting TDC C/S. (c/s = compression stroke) TDC C/S places both intake and exhaust cam lobes at bottom of base circle.
Because COMP camshafts are manufactured with such high precision you can typically install them on the stock timing marks without any further checking. however, if you wish to check and verify valve timing, we recommend the Intake Centerline Method for degreeing the cam. Thank you.
I would guess any cam you mass produce can go dot to dot without any trouble. The only time I have seen people have a cam timing issue is with custom grind cams.
It depends on what type of engine you are working on. In most cases, you will need an adjustable timing set, so you can make the intake centerline where it is supposed to be. In Chevy applications, an offset degree bushing can be used instead of an adjustable timing set. Hope this helps. Thank you.
I bought a comp cam to go with my gt40s about 5 years ago, now I think I can install with confidence. this is the only complete video I have seen, Should I do every valve in/out? thanks so much for this tutorial!
Great video! Assuming the person degreeing the cam is awesome and makes no mistakes, what do you do if it's not matching up with the cam card? Wrong cam card? Bad camshaft? How often does a camshaft not match up with it's cam card?
So, I've been building engines for a day or two now. I keep hearing about "degreeing" the cam, see it over and over again on hot rod shows, where for some reason or another they are advancing the cam by xyz degrees and they really never explain it either. I've always wondered why one would need to do so if the cam is properly manufactured and properly keyed for the camshaft sprocket and crank sprocket. If what I just watched is correct, the whole purpose of all of this is simply to ensure that the cam was ground and set up as described by the manufacturer? So doesn't Comp Cams have a quality control program to verify all of that has been done properly before they put it in the box?
Exactly my point! Unless you dyno every cam timing adjustment you make, it's not for dialing in power.... It's only to check against the grind quality. Having those tools to check piston to valve clearance is important tho!
Some cam grinders grind a certain amount of advance into the cam to offset timing chain slack. Depending on the cam card and the grinder, the specs may or may not line up regarding the "zero" mark on the gears. IE, put it at zero and you find your cam advanced by 3-4 degrees according to the card. Depending on what you're trying to achieve, advancing or retarding the cam timing can make a giant performance change. A change large enough to be seen in cranking compression test. Advancing the cam timing closes the exhaust valve sooner and will increase bottom end performance (because the cylinder pressure is higher, sooner) and retarding the timing will usually extended the max HP into higher RPM ranges. Where the ILC ends up is necessary information. Putting it where you want it is crucial. Until you start building things that are pretty edgy, lining up the dots is usually good enough. When you start racing, and trying to make HP within a given set of engine rules for a specific purpose, you're definitely going to want to understand this is greater detail.
Once you get one cam that's off, you'll never not degree again. I got bit, now I do it. Hundreds of thousands of cams go out every year, something is going to get messed up sooner or later. Stamped and boxed wrong, could be anything
It's because he's talking at a speed and in a way that assumes the listener is a seasoned mechanic and has rebuilt an engine before. So pretty poor for a novice or first time builder/cam installer.
Do not feel to bad , i am a professional and even we can second guess ourselves and need a refresher! I have built and repaired my share of engines and i have found videos like this to help out but the way i learn is to dig in and practice.
every time I see someone degree a cam they get exactly what the card says so whats the point you order something from a reputable company but then double check there work i don't get it
Because what do you prefer? Spend a little time verifying the specs? Or putting it altogether only to have to pull it apart again because your timing was off? Oh and that is if you realize your drive ability concern is due to incorrect cam phasing. Most cases, the individual will be chasing their tail for hours before they start to suspect cam timing. Fiddling with ignition and fuel systems until they are out of ideas. So yes, degree your damn cam. It is what separates the professional builds from the amateur ones.
I wouldn't buy a product from a company that sells an expensive kit just to double check their quality control. Do I need to buy another kit to check the hardness of the cam surface?
Is your crankshaft keyway exact?? Is your timing set exactly cut? It seems as though you know almost nothing about engine building. A little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing.
Thanks for watching! The video just focuses on the intake side as an example, but when checking the duration on the exhaust you would still take into effect the rocker ratio.
Hey Comp Cams, I bought your degree wheel kit years ago around 1993 from Summit Racing. The kit had a VHS video with the degree wheel kit that had an excellent classroom tutorial with a "Teacher" using a chalk board. Can you upload that very informative and thorough original video on degreeing a cam? Thanks Chris
Great video! Why wasn't the rocker ratio taken into consideration on the exhaust side for taking the intake center line like it was on the intake side?
Thanks for watching! If the cam is not matching up with the cam card, you would simply use your adjustable timing set to bring it back into spec. If it was so far out that it could not be brought into spec then either the cam is bad, the timing set is bad or there is user error. For any additional questions feel free to call our CAM HELP line at 1.800.999.9853.
Thank you for the message. Please contact our techs at camhelp@compcams.com. They will have some questions about your engine and overall setup, and will then be able to provide you with some recommendations for your engine. We hope this helps, thank you.
So dot to dot on a fuel injected car is not enough I should also degree the cam? I got a 280 xfi cam for my 5.7L. I re-used the old timing chain since the motor only has 20k miles on it. If it's off can't the pcm be adjusted to the difference through timing?
Hi, nice video!!! I have a question: I've seen that degrading the engines that are not an interference engine such as the one you're using everyone uses them as an example, but if I'm going to downgrade an interference engine like 2000 dodge durango 4.7, am I supposed to degrade all the cams (block and heads) or only the block? or do all the engines degrade the same way? May you please clear my doubts sir.
Just checked a comp cam for a sbc I'm putting together. It's not even close to spec! Lift is off .018, center line is 110 should be 102! That is why you should always check.
How did he just change the valve spring without the valve dropping in the engine? I didn't see an attachment in the number one sparkplug hole for compressed air.
Your best option may be to give our CAM HELP line a call at 1.800.99.0853. The techs will be happy to answer any questions you have or help you with any issues related to degreeing. Thank you.
Feed a cotton rope into the spark plug hole and roll the piston up...to hold the valves.... Don't lose the rope inside !!!! A lot simpler than messing with air and TDC dwell. I learned this in the 50s... It was common.
I wanna build my l31 and the cam degree is confusing ..if the two timing marks are pointed to each other then that would be tdm so by degreing the cam will that give you a second timing mark to go of ?
Why wouldnt you just put the dial indicator on the pushrod? Then you wouldn't even need the rocker arms or the test springs. You also wouldn't have to multiply .050 x 1.52. You could just look for .050" lift directly?
I think it has to do with the way the tool is designed. you can get other cam degree kits that go right into lifter bore. that way you get true cam measurements and not have to do all that math
This video loses me when it comes to the rocker ratio. I don't think my OEM for my 6.4L Gen III Hemi has a rocker ratio that I noted anywhere. Do I just skip that step/calculation, and why?
Perhaps I am an idiot, but you didn't say at what orientation to install the degree wheel on the crankshaft. Is this just random or perhaps it doesn't matter? For example, what happens if I install the wheel with the label inverted? Two, does it matter how deep the piston stop goes into the chamber? (Lets say I didn't purchase your kit) Three, during the critical aspects of measurement and calculation you go way too fast. (Keep in mind that only Novices would need to view this video in the first place). Thanks for posting. It did provide a rudimentary understanding of the process. Still have questions though.
At first, it doesn't matter regarding the orientation of the degree wheel. After you find TDC, then you will re-orient the wheel where it is supposed to be. It also does not matter how deep the piston stop goes into the chamber, it just has to be deep enough to contact the piston before it gets to the top of the cylinder. Hope this helps!
Does anybody EVER consider chain stretch and wear???? What happens when there is 2* of slack after 3,000 miles? What good does degreeing do when the chain stretches? Think....
I just don't understand why these video makers feel they have to always use this annoying and unnecessary porno music throughout a tech video. It is totally not needed and distracting, also it makes it difficult to understand the instructor, especially if we are from another country ! What is wrong with just the instructor talking? Are you trying to be 'hip' and 'cool' by putting brainless music in there? This combined with the fact that it is going along too quickly for rank beginners to follow easily. This is just another case of sheep following sheep, as most other technical , How-To videos do it also, so everyone seems to think it is a good idea to put stupid music in the video so they do it also. So thumbs down for that.
The S197 Mustang GT should be a 3-valve, 4.6L engine. Since those engines have VVT, it is not required to degree them in. Simply install everything at the factory timing marks. Hope this helps, sorry for the extreme delay, your message just popped up. Thanks for watching!
Why not line up the dots and be done with it? Are the cams mis-ground? Is the slop in the system enough to cause such a degradation in power? Truly why must this be done?
Seems like every degree wheel "how to"...the cam was good with the dots on the timing set...this is akin to loading your own ammo, off the shelf stuff will do 99.9% of the time, unless you just wanna play with precision instruments .
I'm gonna trust that comp cams has all of their math correct. Assuming so, I'm just gonna set my valve lash and timing while y'all are still playing with anal airplane tools.
This kit is disappointing. What a waste. Could have made a true universal kit with with a magnetic base for the dial indicator and included different alignment washers for the wheel. This kit only works for most domestic engines
Good video shame about the stupid background music. You're trying to produce informative video, so ask yourself what value or additional information would adding stupid background music provide to the viewers? If you don't know then drop the music.
The first 30 seconds you explained “WHY” it needs to be degreed.🔥🔥🔥🔥 finally I found a video.
Ryan - The 08-502-8 cam should be fine installed dot to dot. Degreeing the cam is just to make sure that the dots on the timing set are in exactly the right spot and the cam grind is correct. It's really just a more precise way to install a camshaft. We do recommend that customers degree the cam, but it is not absolutely necessary. Thank you.
We are glad you were able to get some good information from this video. You only have to check the events on cylinder #1 to make sure the cam is phased properly to the crankshaft. Thanks for watching!
For those unsure of doing this, it really is just basic math. Just print out a step by step you can read off of, and you'll be fine. One thing that should be mentioned for radical lift cams, is to check valve to piston clearance while your degreeing. I have seen a few people fail to do this a regret it later.
At 3:17 into the video, he shows removing the PPS tool.
DO NOT yet remove the PPS tool !!!!!
Instead, move your wire pointer (or move the degree wheel) as to accommodate for the error.
As shown at 3:43 into the video he moves the degree wheel as to align the ZERO with the wire pointer.
At that point, you should once again rotate the crankshaft in either direction for your final "stop" check.
Once an equal split has been accurately established, now you can safely remove the PPS tool.
When the crankshaf is now rotated so that the ZERO aligns with the wire pointer, you will have located your TRUE # 1 TDC.
Don't take short cuts..... shoot for accuracy, even if it takes you a bit longer.
Never put zero at max lift; zero should be at the base circle. The guy doe not understand that max lift is actually the center line so would be just that but is not possible to measure with accuracy.
@@TheReverb1 Just to add a bit of clarity; TDC for each cylinder can be found twice during 4 engine cycles. When setting up for true # 1 TDC (for camshaft indexing or ignition timing), we are targetting TDC C/S. (c/s = compression stroke)
TDC C/S places both intake and exhaust cam lobes at bottom of base circle.
Because COMP camshafts are manufactured with such high precision you can typically install them on the stock timing marks without any further checking. however, if you wish to check and verify valve timing, we recommend the Intake Centerline Method for degreeing the cam. Thank you.
I would guess any cam you mass produce can go dot to dot without any trouble. The only time I have seen people have a cam timing issue is with custom grind cams.
It depends on what type of engine you are working on. In most cases, you will need an adjustable timing set, so you can make the intake centerline where it is supposed to be. In Chevy applications, an offset degree bushing can be used instead of an adjustable timing set. Hope this helps. Thank you.
I bought a comp cam to go with my gt40s about 5 years ago, now I think I can install with confidence. this is the only complete video I have seen, Should I do every valve in/out?
thanks so much for this tutorial!
I wanted to say thank you for the tips and how to get the numbers to work out as they are on the cam card. Thank you
Thank you! Unfortunately though we do not make anything for the Dodge 4.7L engine. We appreciate your watching!
Finally a good video on degreeing a cam! thank you!
Great video! Assuming the person degreeing the cam is awesome and makes no mistakes, what do you do if it's not matching up with the cam card? Wrong cam card? Bad camshaft? How often does a camshaft not match up with it's cam card?
So, I've been building engines for a day or two now. I keep hearing about "degreeing" the cam, see it over and over again on hot rod shows, where for some reason or another they are advancing the cam by xyz degrees and they really never explain it either. I've always wondered why one would need to do so if the cam is properly manufactured and properly keyed for the camshaft sprocket and crank sprocket. If what I just watched is correct, the whole purpose of all of this is simply to ensure that the cam was ground and set up as described by the manufacturer? So doesn't Comp Cams have a quality control program to verify all of that has been done properly before they put it in the box?
Exactly my point!
Unless you dyno every cam timing adjustment you make, it's not for dialing in power.... It's only to check against the grind quality.
Having those tools to check piston to valve clearance is important tho!
Some cam grinders grind a certain amount of advance into the cam to offset timing chain slack. Depending on the cam card and the grinder, the specs may or may not line up regarding the "zero" mark on the gears. IE, put it at zero and you find your cam advanced by 3-4 degrees according to the card. Depending on what you're trying to achieve, advancing or retarding the cam timing can make a giant performance change. A change large enough to be seen in cranking compression test. Advancing the cam timing closes the exhaust valve sooner and will increase bottom end performance (because the cylinder pressure is higher, sooner) and retarding the timing will usually extended the max HP into higher RPM ranges. Where the ILC ends up is necessary information. Putting it where you want it is crucial. Until you start building things that are pretty edgy, lining up the dots is usually good enough. When you start racing, and trying to make HP within a given set of engine rules for a specific purpose, you're definitely going to want to understand this is greater detail.
Once you get one cam that's off, you'll never not degree again. I got bit, now I do it. Hundreds of thousands of cams go out every year, something is going to get messed up sooner or later. Stamped and boxed wrong, could be anything
While this guy talks to me, all I can hear is "Pay a professional, you incompetent knucklehead!"
It's because he's talking at a speed and in a way that assumes the listener is a seasoned mechanic and has rebuilt an engine before. So pretty poor for a novice or first time builder/cam installer.
Do not feel to bad , i am a professional and even we can second guess ourselves and need a refresher! I have built and repaired my share of engines and i have found videos like this to help out but the way i learn is to dig in and practice.
6:45 Should the 0.050" be multiplied by 1.52?
So I just bought a 08-502-8 comp cam. Do I need to degree my camshaft or do I simply install it for to dot? And i assume that's at TDC correct?
every time I see someone degree a cam they get exactly what the card says so whats the point you order something from a reputable company but then double check there work i don't get it
Whats the whole point for this
Because what do you prefer? Spend a little time verifying the specs? Or putting it altogether only to have to pull it apart again because your timing was off?
Oh and that is if you realize your drive ability concern is due to incorrect cam phasing. Most cases, the individual will be chasing their tail for hours before they start to suspect cam timing. Fiddling with ignition and fuel systems until they are out of ideas. So yes, degree your damn cam. It is what separates the professional builds from the amateur ones.
I don't trust these Chinese-sourced Comp Cams either....
I wouldn't buy a product from a company that sells an expensive kit just to double check their quality control. Do I need to buy another kit to check the hardness of the cam surface?
Is your crankshaft keyway exact??
Is your timing set exactly cut?
It seems as though you know almost nothing about engine building.
A little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing.
"A little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing."
Poorly made engine components aren't inspiring, the cat's out of the bag?.
@346ls6camd Glad you liked it, thanks for watching!
Thanks so much for watching, we look forward to working with you!
Thanks for watching! The video just focuses on the intake side as an example, but when checking the duration on the exhaust you would still take into effect the rocker ratio.
No. There is a difference between valve timing and ignition timing. You should be perfectly fine with the dots lined up.
Hey Comp Cams, I bought your degree wheel kit years ago around 1993 from Summit Racing. The kit had a VHS video with the degree wheel kit that had an excellent classroom tutorial with a "Teacher" using a chalk board. Can you upload that very informative and thorough original video on degreeing a cam?
Thanks
Chris
7 years later.. **crickets**
Great video! Why wasn't the rocker ratio taken into consideration on the exhaust side for taking the intake center line like it was on the intake side?
Thanks for watching! If the cam is not matching up with the cam card, you would simply use your adjustable timing set to bring it back into spec. If it was so far out that it could not be brought into spec then either the cam is bad, the timing set is bad or there is user error. For any additional questions feel free to call our CAM HELP line at 1.800.999.9853.
Hallo, why do you not respect the rocker arm ratio when measuring the centerline?
Thank you for the message. Please contact our techs at camhelp@compcams.com. They will have some questions about your engine and overall setup, and will then be able to provide you with some recommendations for your engine. We hope this helps, thank you.
Great video but when you first put the degree wheel on which way does it go zero pointing up or down or does it matter
At first, it doesn't matter. After you find TDC, then you will re-orient the wheel where it is supposed to be. Hope this helps, thanks for watching!
COMP Cams Thanks for replying i have installed many cams and never degreed them i will try this next time
So dot to dot on a fuel injected car is not enough I should also degree the cam? I got a 280 xfi cam for my 5.7L. I re-used the old timing chain since the motor only has 20k miles on it. If it's off can't the pcm be adjusted to the difference through timing?
Seek help
Hi, nice video!!!
I have a question: I've seen that degrading the engines that are not an interference engine such as the one you're using everyone uses them as an example, but if I'm going to downgrade an interference engine like 2000 dodge durango 4.7, am I supposed to degrade all the cams (block and heads) or only the block? or do all the engines degrade the same way? May you please clear my doubts sir.
Just checked a comp cam for a sbc I'm putting together. It's not even close to spec! Lift is off .018, center line is 110 should be 102! That is why you should always check.
and the gwhat gwhat what?? O.0 in tresting nice work but im so confused lol good work man!!!
i have to dial in on this :)
Yes do you show anything on retiming a 2.7 total that is an interference engine that's 180 out do you have to remove the twin cams or not
How did he just change the valve spring without the valve dropping in the engine? I didn't see an attachment in the number one sparkplug hole for compressed air.
new valve seals
How does degree work if crank timing gear is set 2°advanced making the cam 1°advanced?
Your best option may be to give our CAM HELP line a call at 1.800.99.0853. The techs will be happy to answer any questions you have or help you with any issues related to degreeing. Thank you.
It is best to use compressed air to hold the valves up when swapping valve springs with the heads still on the engine.
Feed a cotton rope into the spark plug hole and roll the piston up...to hold the valves.... Don't lose the rope inside !!!!
A lot simpler than messing with air and TDC dwell.
I learned this in the 50s... It was common.
sir....if the dial indicator is not align with valve retainer will i get wrong reading for cam duration also or for lift only??please reply sir
I wanna build my l31 and the cam degree is confusing ..if the two timing marks are pointed to each other then that would be tdm so by degreing the cam will that give you a second timing mark to go of ?
Why wouldnt you just put the dial indicator on the pushrod? Then you wouldn't even need the rocker arms or the test springs. You also wouldn't have to multiply .050 x 1.52. You could just look for .050" lift directly?
I think it has to do with the way the tool is designed. you can get other cam degree kits that go right into lifter bore. that way you get true cam measurements and not have to do all that math
wow, i actually understand! thanks!
This video loses me when it comes to the rocker ratio. I don't think my OEM for my 6.4L Gen III Hemi has a rocker ratio that I noted anywhere. Do I just skip that step/calculation, and why?
tanks for te help i watch te video like tree times to anderstand a buy comp cams degree kit and i am workin on a 289 engine see you
I'm guessing probably the cam cannot be trusted if installing straight up doesn't hit spec. Some dyno results advice for "what if" would be helpful.
Perhaps I am an idiot, but you didn't say at what orientation to install the degree wheel on the crankshaft. Is this just random or perhaps it doesn't matter? For example, what happens if I install the wheel with the label inverted? Two, does it matter how deep the piston stop goes into the chamber? (Lets say I didn't purchase your kit) Three, during the critical aspects of measurement and calculation you go way too fast. (Keep in mind that only Novices would need to view this video in the first place). Thanks for posting. It did provide a rudimentary understanding of the process. Still have questions though.
At first, it doesn't matter regarding the orientation of the degree wheel. After you find TDC, then you will re-orient the wheel where it is supposed to be. It also does not matter how deep the piston stop goes into the chamber, it just has to be deep enough to contact the piston before it gets to the top of the cylinder. Hope this helps!
Thanks so much for watching!
Ok we need to see what needs to be done when cams do not degree correctly. Why degree if everything is good.
Does anybody EVER consider chain stretch and wear????
What happens when there is 2* of slack after 3,000 miles?
What good does degreeing do when the chain stretches?
Think....
How do you correct a situation where your numbers do not come into specs?
nice vid thanks for posting....
I honestly don't think most people can do all this.
Bro no kidding...I’m lost
I just don't understand why these video makers feel they have to always use this annoying and unnecessary porno music throughout a tech video. It is totally not needed and distracting, also it makes it difficult to understand the instructor, especially if we are from another country ! What is wrong with just the instructor talking? Are you trying to be 'hip' and 'cool' by putting brainless music in there? This combined with the fact that it is going along too quickly for rank beginners to follow easily. This is just another case of sheep following sheep, as most other technical , How-To videos do it also, so everyone seems to think it is a good idea to put stupid music in the video so they do it also. So thumbs down for that.
u can rewind pause as u go
I agree the music is unnecessary
I have an S197 Mustang GT with just the Mutha Thumpr cams do they need to be degreed?
The S197 Mustang GT should be a 3-valve, 4.6L engine. Since those engines have VVT, it is not required to degree them in. Simply install everything at the factory timing marks. Hope this helps, sorry for the extreme delay, your message just popped up. Thanks for watching!
ARRRRH. Just line the bloody dots up....JEEZ!!!
I dunno, can we trust comp cams machining or maybe just a commercial for a nice degree wheel?
Why not line up the dots and be done with it? Are the cams mis-ground? Is the slop in the system enough to cause such a degradation in power? Truly why must this be done?
Seems like every degree wheel "how to"...the cam was good with the dots on the timing set...this is akin to loading your own ammo, off the shelf stuff will do 99.9% of the time, unless you just wanna play with precision instruments .
You left out indexing the Crank to Cam angles. Or all this is for nothing....
Piston stop might be easy but it ain't as accurate. Otherwise a nice presentation.
Thanks!
im a mechanic and my head is hurting right now lol
i had builder do it for meh!
I'm gonna trust that comp cams has all of their math correct. Assuming so, I'm just gonna set my valve lash and timing while y'all are still playing with anal airplane tools.
Mini Barrett and the guy that takes the time to degree his cam to spec gets 3mpg better than you do and beats you at the strip as well
Who the hell's going to have all the tools just to degree a cam???
You do if you want to do the job correctly.
This kit is disappointing. What a waste. Could have made a true universal kit with with a magnetic base for the dial indicator and included different alignment washers for the wheel. This kit only works for most domestic engines
Yeah, 30 years after I started working on cars, all that is just babble in my ears like Charlie Brown's teacher.
Good video shame about the stupid background music. You're trying to produce informative video, so ask yourself what value or additional information would adding stupid background music provide to the viewers? If you don't know then drop the music.
im the 1st