@@NoName-OG1 Oh, there is a video of someone testing nuts as nuts and falling in them. Somehow I would be more comfortable doing that than falling on an ATC-nut
Honestly, that was some garbage response from petzl. Yes that might be the underlying message, but the answer to your customer could have been along the lines of: "we have no way of telling you concisely how this was tested" not, "We're not obligated by law to tell you anything". At that point why even have a technical question service?
17:05 🤣 …”any _thoughts_ Bobby?” “..can we go eat?” Thank you for putting in so much effort and HOURS into testing the strengths of these things! I’m not an avid climber myself, just watching to learn and maybe know for future climbs. Big love from Australia 🖤💛❤️
Yessss Ryan please do this. FLIR attachments for phones are pretty cheap these days. Doesn't have to be fancy. You could watch in real time where the heat originates and how it propagates through the various components being tested.
Stumbled upon your slack line videos a while ago and I gotta say it never gets old. You’re always finding new rabbit holes that I didn’t think existed. Always gives us something important to think about when we’re engaged in these risky sports. I wonder how many lives you’ve actually saved?
You guys are really the best. I've been watching all these tests with baited breath, they have really allowed me to be much more confident in gear, generally speaking. Thank you. ATC 26 KN. Hmm. Lower than I though in the Petzl.
That email from Petzl is hysterical and oh so reassuring. Not gonna tell you… “Thanks for your trust”, but just in case “All the best”. They may want to rethink their customer comms strategy.
"How does a climber get 4, maybe 5 kN and I can hang on just fine?" The rope *should* slip through a bit in a fall. That reduces the peak force of the shock load. F=ma, a=dv/dt, by increasing dt (time of the change in velocity) due to the slip the acceleration drops, and thus the force drops.The same thing is why dynamic ropes stretch.
And most likely rarely received all the load the climber gets themselves. I reckon the rope drag makes some of the load transfer through the quickdraws thus reducing load on the belayer.
I also want to Thank You Most Generously for helping me teach me fiance. I just showed her what you were doing with holding the line on the ATC at 2.58KN, and reminded her of the various techniques I was teaching her two weeks ago on belaying. She is very thankful for you and will probably be a new subscriber soon
Thank you for this test. The eye of the petzl, which I am using all the time, look so unstable that I really was thinking about this a few times. I think partly because you have a lot of time to wonder while belaying your second... Thanks
I actually enjoy the videos being out of order... it's like a daily puzzle trying to fit it into the timeline depending on background/dyno/Bobby commentary 😄👍 I always have something to do, even if I'm not super curious about items that I'll probably never use, although this test is one I was definitely interested in, but Ryan breaking anything is always pretty interesting to begin with 😆
Fun story I learned from a Petzl engineer. When Petzl developed the first Reverso, the one made from sheet steel, they tried originally to have the attachment loop perpendicular to the plane of the tuber to allow optimal orientation on most belay anchors - exactly like on a plate. However, they could not find a way to manufacture with the needed stability at an affordable price point and went with an attachment point in the middle plane of the device. When they switched to an aluminium body of the revverso, they corrected that problem and we're quite amazed that everybody else including Black Diamond copied the design of the original steel Reverso in their aluminium-bodied designs. The perpendicular loop is still harder to manufacture and whether you prefer it or not probably depends on how you rig your belays and which anchors you typically encounter and thus both design philosophies coexist. But if Petzl would have found a way to turn the loop in the original steel Reverso, probably everyone would have followed that design.
I would be super curious about the DMM pivot. I can't find a strength rating for the device, and that pivot seems like it would be harder to make super good enough.
I would very much like to see the comparison of the DMM Pivot to the BD ATC Guide. That little pin in the Pivot has to be a weak point. Sure, the pivoting action would make it easier to lower people, but I can't get that little pin our of my mind when I think about buying one. I've looked at the DMM info, and there is no rating on that part of the device.
Confession. I've used an old school rock (an actual loose rock that I found a few metres below in another crack) jammed in a crack with a prusik cord around it because I ran out of pro, and I fell on it. It was fine. Things we do when we're young and stupid...
I asked DMM the same thing about the Pivot belay device (which has a hinged connection point). Simon Marsh, one of the DMM engineers answered: „The Pivot guide mode anchor connection point is rated to a minimum of 16kN” ! Maybe you might want to check this value too?! About the guide mode failure, Jim Titt wrote a comment on MP Forum: "First Fail Mode: The trapped rope escapes sideways from under the tensioned rope and gets trapped between the tensioned rope and the side of the slot.This is very difficult to free off and you have to dismantle everything and twist the locking krab brutally to release the rope. Take your Prusiks. Second fail mode: Apply yet more load and the trapped rope where it crosses the tensioned rope goes down through the slot with a bang. At this point the holding power drops off considerably but not catastrophically, though pretty near! Easy to release, just unclip the krab when unweighted. Still need to take your Prusiks! ATC Guide. 10.2 Mammut, used, non-treated. First fail mode 4.8kN. No second fail mode, rope sheath cut at ca 9kN. ATC Guide. 9mm Edelrid, used, non treated. First fail mode 2.96kN. Max fail load 5.58kN. Residual load 1.6kN ATC Guide. 8.2mm Edelrid, new,treated. First fail mode 2.05kN. Max fail load 4.06kN. Residual load 1.2kN Reverso³. 10.2 Mammut, used, non treated. First fail mode 3.68kN. No second fail mode. Rope sheath cut ca 9kN Reverso³. 9mm Edelrid, used, non treated. First fail mode 2.25kN. Max fail load 3.60kN. Residual load 0.9kN Reverso³. 8.2mm Edelrid, new,treated. First fail mode 1.6kN. Max fail load 2.38kN. Residual load 0.7kN All with Petzl Attache 12mm round profile karabiner. The first failure is both strands are crossing inside the device and it jams up solid, you hear a sharp bang as this happens (we though something had broken). Then the crossing point of the ropes is forced out of the bottom of the plate and the original rope positions is reversed with a twist at the karabiner. With thicker ropes as the crossing point starts to come out below the plate the rope is forced onto the underneath of the sides of the plate and core-shots so it doesn´t really ever reverse completely but shreds itself instead. You can get a good idea of what happens by using a thinnish (6mm or so) cord and bouncing on it.
In that case, their 16 kN hinge is directly compared to the BD ATC Guide at 30 kN. The DMM Pivot's design puts a weak point at the pin. Jim Titt gave us interesting information, but the rest of that stuff about the second fail mode doesn't compare the DMM with the ATC or Reverso. It seems that doing all these secondary failure modes with the rope problem got his Titt in a wringer. Still the question remains, how many kN will a Titt in a wringer hold? Probably the Petzel if uncompromised would break over 16 kN if it wasn't compromised in the other testing. We can only beg and genuflect to the How Not To Highline gods, that they will verify the breaking strength of a DMM Pivot.
Occasionally I'll use the reverso in guide mode clipped to my belay loop as a safety when setting TR. Usually the safety line is a static rope (part of the anchor). If you don't manage your slack and take a bad fall, I'd think you could generate quite a bit of force. But you'd probably break before the device...
@benoitcerrina it's PAS, yes. The guide hole clips to me, and a fixed line runs to an anchor back from the edge. Imagine you were using guide mode to ascend, that's basically the setup. The places I climb don't allow bolts, and often don't have good pro at the edge, so TR setups usually use static lines to far away trees. Often we go back and forth during setup, so there can be a lot of slack in a safety line, sometimes when we're navigating 4th or 5th class terrain. Grigris are better, but sometimes you don't have one 😉
When holding a fall you are not taking all the load on the belay device, there is a chain of things making it soft like all the gear placed. If the rope zig zags a lot the friction will take out pressure from the belay device and apply it to the anchors. That's why you try not to zig zag a lot on trad gear (using double ropes or extending very long the quick draws). I'm guessing that's why your messuring only about 2Kn while trying to hold the belay device directly but you would be able to hold a higher force on a fall where there's a bunch of gear placed. Cool tests could come out of more "real world" scenarios. Thanks for the work your doing.
That's what I use and I could have sworn I had seen the rating on the sheet or online, or maybe it was in one of their demo videos. Of course can't find it now. - but yeah I want to know, too.
Maybe save it for the drop tower but the micro traction test would be cool because so many people use it for rope solo! And I was thinking rope brake strength not device failure! Thanks Ryan and Bobby for the videos😁
Interesting there is written Tendon, as the manufacturer of Tendon ropes is actually called Lanex (in czech lano = rope) I would expect there the manufacturers name rather than the brand.
Can you try testing BEAL ropes that have unicore? Would be interesting to see because when ever a rope seems to fail the mantle is pulled of first and then the core snaps, but with unicore ropes mantle and core are one unit.
Thanks Bobby and Ryan, i was thinking about the load while belaying my friend from top with my Reverso on Sunday. 12,41 Kn is enough but actually disappointed against to BD. Now thinking seriously to buy Black Diamond Atc.
The main difference for me to opt out for petzl is the weight, it's 57 gr, for the 80 of the atc guide or the 73 of the alpine, and the 12 kn, precompromissed, is still enough for any second falling
@@juanfigueroa8736 I love the beefy design of the BD ATC Guide. That thing inspires confidence. 23 grams difference, what's that about four beer farts?
Do you think you can break the reverso eye with 2 ropes in auto-block mode? Sometimes I belay two people off a guide atc and I imagine losing 2 partners at once. How could both partners simultaneously generate 6kN? Idk, belay-ledge shenanigans and they both take factor 2s?
You make a very good point. I use the ATC Guide in the guide mode fairly often to belay two people up. Gourgou is wrong, you don't have to be belaying two leaders. You can be belaying two climbers from above as the device was designed to do. As you said, it would take something like both climbers to fall at the same time with some slack in the rope, very close to the time they reached the belay. An example of this could be if two climbers coming up on top rope reached a ledge a few feet below the belay device. There is a minimal amount of rope out between the device and the two climbers. Let's say the ledge gives way and both climbers fall a short distance on a short rope- the scenario of a factor two fall. Could this cause a failure? Fortunately, with a breaking strength of 30 kN, it seems very unlikely that the eye would break from the main part of the device. However, the force could slam the ATC Guide into the rock and compromise the lab values.
I’m blown away by how strong that wire is. My partner had the cable just fall off once. It was mildly annoying. But would have sucked it if dropped mid climb.
Iteressting how rope broke at 7:00 mins for the rappeling test. I just got me a new ATC because the edges on the back where sharp on mine old one. Would be interessing to kmow if or how much sharp edges affect the breaking strenght of the rope when rappeling. But I guess 19 kn is super good enought though 😅
Do you have source for that ? I've been to the petzl factory and they do make metal climbing stuff in there. Why would the reverso be produced elsewhere ?
@@moonti6820 on the back of the package of a reverso it will say 'made in the UK'. DMM makes reversos in Llanberis on behalf of Petzl as they don't have the hot forging expertise dmm does. Petzl ropes also aren't made by petzl, they're Edelrid. On that matter, I believe BD ropes are made by tendon I think.
Some people use a reverso as a self belay device for rope soloing. In this mode the device is clipped from the 'guide hole' to the climber's belay loop. In a big lead fall onto a rope that's fixed to the anchor at the bottom of the pitch the device could concievably see 5 or 6 kN +.
This is great as always. I think it would be ingesting to see what would happen if you pulled on a quad anchor in two directions at the same time. This could happen if you have a haul bag on one set of strands and a climber juging on the other. Also once you get the drop tower built it would be interesting to see it pulled in different vertical directions. As if you have a haul bag or other person and a ladder takes a fall. Thanks!
so i wanted to comment something.. started to write this comment, forgot what i was about to comment... so.. yeah, here´s my pointless comment.. i guess for the algorythm?! anyway, keep it going guys, really enjoying the show and gaining some knowledge!
I was about to comment, exactly what you predicted, right before you did, but then I thought "hmm, maybe I should watch all the way to the end, before I comment" and I was right...
How does a climber get 4-5 kN and a belayer can hang on just fine? Because you normally only need to hold on with a force equivalent to your body weight and then you get lifted off the ground. If the belay device was glued to the ground completely statically, the rope would slide through instead, but probably only for a very short time until the force of the fall was dissipated through friction and stuff, so not very far. You might regret not wearing gloves though. Oooh, could you hold on to the rope like that with a force meter but both with and without belay gloves just to see how much difference it makes in how hard you can pull?
Ryan, I know you've tested all these pro's singularly. But I would be really curios what and actual gear anchor rips at? Like 3 cams, in real rock? With soft shackles obviously, right?
3:35 does the climber get 4-5kN, or does the anchor? The force on the anchor would be roughly twice the force on the climber and belayer, not accounting for friction.
Hay I love your videos and have been binge watching them. I think it would be interested to see where the failure point is and at what KN rating a rope passed through a anchor bolt and back down (making a retrievable rappel) Then try different devices to see what is safest and if any pinch the rope or if the small bend radius effects the rope.... So may variables I don't know where it would fail? Finger 8? ATC?
I think that when someone takes a fall, the force inside the belay device happens in a short period of time, so it may slip a little bit, but then the peak force is over and you have to hold just the body weight and thats fine without any slipping. The slipping is probably so less, that the rope between the device and the belayer can absorb the movement of the rope with its dynamic behavior.
I was wondering... instead of attaching the brake strand to a load cell and a fixed point.... could you try another test configuration... could you attached a [15kg?] weight to the brake strand, and redirect using a pulley, to maintain a constant brake strand load, and investigate the performance of these devices with various rope diameters / carabiner diameters... ?
At 16:10 ish. What happens after failure when you're termanation knot slips as it did?. With the bounce and recoil, I'd say AAAHHHHHH!!!!!! P.S. swing stage is my experience so........ Any replies are welcome.
Be careful asking people to use the amazon link for anything and everything. If its not for a specific item your breaching the amazon T&C... I know its stupid but it has happened to youtubers in the past and they are kicked from the program... Another awesome video, im stoked for the drop tower!
I use ATC guide in a scenario where it is not at the top of the rope. I self-belay starting from the bottom mostly on easy sports routes. The ATC top loop is clipped to my harness loop. If I fall, the last anchor catches, the rope goes above me, it locks, and I hang from the top loop of the ATC. I have taken a decent fall that way. It worked. I know it is "off-label". I guess I should say the usual disclaimer: "Don't do as I say. Don't do as I do". By the way, I wanted to ask--I believe you said you couldn't think of a normal climbing scenario with more than 14 kN on an anchor. If you take a UIAA fall, won't the peak force on you be about 10 kN, so the peak force on the anchor over which the rope loops somewhere close to double less the loss due to friction (so it makes maybe 16 - 17 kN)?
@@MBC-th8le Thanks, its a great video! I haven't seen all the best they made yet. Sure, but those are not the standard test UIAA falls. They are with a static belay high up on the wall with a worst-case fall factor for the bolt--not a slipping hand on an ATC on an un-anchored belayer on the ground. I guess the UIAA falls are not normal climbing situations.
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Great to know we can use ATCs as nuts.
I feel tempted to try it. But then not that motivated yeeting myself off a wall to find out.
@@vfnt I mean, just climb high and add a cam backup
This is what he's saying after all
You can also use nuts as nuts - that is how they got the name… How bolts got their name too. Nuts and bolts as 🔩 nuts and bolts.
@@NoName-OG1
Oh, there is a video of someone testing nuts as nuts and falling in them.
Somehow I would be more comfortable doing that than falling on an ATC-nut
"I don't own Petzl, I own a slack-snap machine"
what a quote hahaha
Ha Hah Hah! That was a weak ass answer from Petzl!!! Yeah I’m talking to you petzl!! I’m buying a black diamond after this video, bruh 😎
Honestly, that was some garbage response from petzl. Yes that might be the underlying message, but the answer to your customer could have been along the lines of: "we have no way of telling you concisely how this was tested" not, "We're not obligated by law to tell you anything". At that point why even have a technical question service?
@@jeroenfeher8107 good point! We are trusting them with our life. It’s understandable to be a little needy lol
17:05 🤣 …”any _thoughts_ Bobby?”
“..can we go eat?”
Thank you for putting in so much effort and HOURS into testing the strengths of these things! I’m not an avid climber myself, just watching to learn and maybe know for future climbs. Big love from Australia 🖤💛❤️
Ryan is basically the demo ranch of the rope world.
That is, he never remembers things get hot.
That's matt, from Matts off road recovery (multiple times in the build of their 4wd, and fab rats).
@@lukeamos9495 TH-cam algorithms are weird.
:'D indeed.
Soooo since you're always mentioning how warm/hot the equipment gets after a break, it may be kinda cool to see them through an infrared camera.
ohhhhh I wonder if I can borrow the super nice Flir from work...I'd bring beer and DMM revolvers for the drop tower. *As many as it takes*
Yessss Ryan please do this. FLIR attachments for phones are pretty cheap these days. Doesn't have to be fancy. You could watch in real time where the heat originates and how it propagates through the various components being tested.
Or a heat gun
Stumbled upon your slack line videos a while ago and I gotta say it never gets old. You’re always finding new rabbit holes that I didn’t think existed. Always gives us something important to think about when we’re engaged in these risky sports. I wonder how many lives you’ve actually saved?
Captain America - “it runs on some form of electricity”
Ryan - “it reads electricity and gives us numbers”
The first 8 seconds of this video are the best. Genuine wholesome honesty, love it. Also, very helpful vid. Ty ty ty
You should test out the DMM pivot. I'm curious to see whether the pin on the pivot mechanism is stronger or weaker than a traditional solid piece.
You guys are really the best. I've been watching all these tests with baited breath, they have really allowed me to be much more confident in gear, generally speaking. Thank you. ATC 26 KN. Hmm. Lower than I though in the Petzl.
Interesting on how strong those eyes are. Thanks again.
That letter definitely had the "We don't actually know but it is strong enough for the intended use" vibe to it.
That email from Petzl is hysterical and oh so reassuring. Not gonna tell you… “Thanks for your trust”, but just in case “All the best”. They may want to rethink their customer comms strategy.
I can't believe the response from Petzl. I find that email totally dismissive and condescending. What a black eye for the Petzl brand!
"How does a climber get 4, maybe 5 kN and I can hang on just fine?"
The rope *should* slip through a bit in a fall. That reduces the peak force of the shock load. F=ma, a=dv/dt, by increasing dt (time of the change in velocity) due to the slip the acceleration drops, and thus the force drops.The same thing is why dynamic ropes stretch.
And most likely rarely received all the load the climber gets themselves. I reckon the rope drag makes some of the load transfer through the quickdraws thus reducing load on the belayer.
“Yeah science bitch!”
And the belayer just gets pulled of the ground from a certain force.
@@juliensantini5882 I believe the tests he references were from the vid where he had a dynamometer on both the belayer and climber
I also want to Thank You Most Generously for helping me teach me fiance. I just showed her what you were doing with holding the line on the ATC at 2.58KN, and reminded her of the various techniques I was teaching her two weeks ago on belaying. She is very thankful for you and will probably be a new subscriber soon
New to this series & climbing somewhat . These guys are dope! So much more to learn but these guys help so I’m appreciative. Peace&love from Boston,Ma
Good job gentlemen. I don’t even slackline, yet, and I really appreciate that your work allows me to make my future purchases more informed.
Thank you for this test.
The eye of the petzl, which I am using all the time, look so unstable that I really was thinking about this a few times.
I think partly because you have a lot of time to wonder while belaying your second...
Thanks
Yeah 12kn is lower than I would have hoped to be honest. It's definitely a weaker if not the weakest link in the chain.
Interesting content. Just broke petzl
Zig-Zag a couple days ago. It’s pretty faith inspiring actually 😁
I actually enjoy the videos being out of order... it's like a daily puzzle trying to fit it into the timeline depending on background/dyno/Bobby commentary 😄👍 I always have something to do, even if I'm not super curious about items that I'll probably never use, although this test is one I was definitely interested in, but Ryan breaking anything is always pretty interesting to begin with 😆
Fun story I learned from a Petzl engineer.
When Petzl developed the first Reverso, the one made from sheet steel, they tried originally to have the attachment loop perpendicular to the plane of the tuber to allow optimal orientation on most belay anchors - exactly like on a plate. However, they could not find a way to manufacture with the needed stability at an affordable price point and went with an attachment point in the middle plane of the device.
When they switched to an aluminium body of the revverso, they corrected that problem and we're quite amazed that everybody else including Black Diamond copied the design of the original steel Reverso in their aluminium-bodied designs.
The perpendicular loop is still harder to manufacture and whether you prefer it or not probably depends on how you rig your belays and which anchors you typically encounter and thus both design philosophies coexist. But if Petzl would have found a way to turn the loop in the original steel Reverso, probably everyone would have followed that design.
Thanks for all the hard work you guys do to provide this invaluable Information. Keep up the great work
¡Gracias thanks for all your work is inspiring!!
I would be super curious about the DMM pivot. I can't find a strength rating for the device, and that pivot seems like it would be harder to make super good enough.
I would very much like to see the comparison of the DMM Pivot to the BD ATC Guide. That little pin in the Pivot has to be a weak point. Sure, the pivoting action would make it easier to lower people, but I can't get that little pin our of my mind when I think about buying one. I've looked at the DMM info, and there is no rating on that part of the device.
Commenting to help this awesome channel!
Confession... Used a DMM Bug as a nut once after running out on a long traverse... Didn't fall! Anything is better than nothing?
Confession. I've used an old school rock (an actual loose rock that I found a few metres below in another crack) jammed in a crack with a prusik cord around it because I ran out of pro, and I fell on it. It was fine. Things we do when we're young and stupid...
@@Intermernet sounds smarter than stupid, you placed pro the best you could (which clearly was good enough) instead of taking a massive fall
"and if this thing breaks, you're no longer climbing in a partnership." Another great line that justifies watching this video.
How, if at all, has your gear use/choice changed over the course of your testing?
Great info Ryan. I appreciate you and your channel man seriously
also, will be good to know how strong is a rope man and a rope man 2 from wild country, thank you
yes, please!
This would be awesome to see
Probably about the same?
Please do this!
I want to thank you for helping me get caught up on tech.
Bobby: 2 hands is only 25% stronger
Ryan: that’s what I tell her
😂 💀
I asked DMM the same thing about the Pivot belay device (which has a hinged connection point). Simon Marsh, one of the DMM engineers answered: „The Pivot guide mode anchor connection point is rated to a minimum of 16kN” ! Maybe you might want to check this value too?!
About the guide mode failure, Jim Titt wrote a comment on MP Forum:
"First Fail Mode:
The trapped rope escapes sideways from under the tensioned rope and gets trapped between the tensioned rope and the side of the slot.This is very difficult to free off and you have to dismantle everything and twist the locking krab brutally to release the rope. Take your Prusiks.
Second fail mode:
Apply yet more load and the trapped rope where it crosses the tensioned rope goes down through the slot with a bang. At this point the holding power drops off considerably but not catastrophically, though pretty near!
Easy to release, just unclip the krab when unweighted. Still need to take your Prusiks!
ATC Guide. 10.2 Mammut, used, non-treated. First fail mode 4.8kN. No second fail mode, rope sheath cut at ca 9kN.
ATC Guide. 9mm Edelrid, used, non treated. First fail mode 2.96kN. Max fail load 5.58kN. Residual load 1.6kN
ATC Guide. 8.2mm Edelrid, new,treated. First fail mode 2.05kN. Max fail load 4.06kN. Residual load 1.2kN
Reverso³. 10.2 Mammut, used, non treated. First fail mode 3.68kN. No second fail mode. Rope sheath cut ca 9kN
Reverso³. 9mm Edelrid, used, non treated. First fail mode 2.25kN. Max fail load 3.60kN. Residual load 0.9kN
Reverso³. 8.2mm Edelrid, new,treated. First fail mode 1.6kN. Max fail load 2.38kN. Residual load 0.7kN
All with Petzl Attache 12mm round profile karabiner.
The first failure is both strands are crossing inside the device and it jams up solid, you hear a sharp bang as this happens (we though something had broken). Then the crossing point of the ropes is forced out of the bottom of the plate and the original rope positions is reversed with a twist at the karabiner.
With thicker ropes as the crossing point starts to come out below the plate the rope is forced onto the underneath of the sides of the plate and core-shots so it doesn´t really ever reverse completely but shreds itself instead.
You can get a good idea of what happens by using a thinnish (6mm or so) cord and bouncing on it.
In that case, their 16 kN hinge is directly compared to the BD ATC Guide at 30 kN. The DMM Pivot's design puts a weak point at the pin. Jim Titt gave us interesting information, but the rest of that stuff about the second fail mode doesn't compare the DMM with the ATC or Reverso. It seems that doing all these secondary failure modes with the rope problem got his Titt in a wringer. Still the question remains, how many kN will a Titt in a wringer hold?
Probably the Petzel if uncompromised would break over 16 kN if it wasn't compromised in the other testing.
We can only beg and genuflect to the How Not To Highline gods, that they will verify the breaking strength of a DMM Pivot.
Occasionally I'll use the reverso in guide mode clipped to my belay loop as a safety when setting TR. Usually the safety line is a static rope (part of the anchor). If you don't manage your slack and take a bad fall, I'd think you could generate quite a bit of force. But you'd probably break before the device...
Sorry I don’t understand the setup described. Or even why would you do it when setting up a TR? Is it part of your PAS somehow?
@benoitcerrina it's PAS, yes. The guide hole clips to me, and a fixed line runs to an anchor back from the edge. Imagine you were using guide mode to ascend, that's basically the setup. The places I climb don't allow bolts, and often don't have good pro at the edge, so TR setups usually use static lines to far away trees. Often we go back and forth during setup, so there can be a lot of slack in a safety line, sometimes when we're navigating 4th or 5th class terrain. Grigris are better, but sometimes you don't have one 😉
Ah, I understand a bit better as I only climbed single and multi pitch sport climbs I never came across such cases.@@ryancheney7772
You're my hero for making this video! My guess is 12kn.
When holding a fall you are not taking all the load on the belay device, there is a chain of things making it soft like all the gear placed. If the rope zig zags a lot the friction will take out pressure from the belay device and apply it to the anchors. That's why you try not to zig zag a lot on trad gear (using double ropes or extending very long the quick draws). I'm guessing that's why your messuring only about 2Kn while trying to hold the belay device directly but you would be able to hold a higher force on a fall where there's a bunch of gear placed. Cool tests could come out of more "real world" scenarios. Thanks for the work your doing.
Stoked on the drop tower.
Congrats dudes!
I really wonder what the dmm pivot would be like where it’s not all one solid piece
That's what I use and I could have sworn I had seen the rating on the sheet or online, or maybe it was in one of their demo videos. Of course can't find it now. - but yeah I want to know, too.
Maybe save it for the drop tower but the micro traction test would be cool because so many people use it for rope solo! And I was thinking rope brake strength not device failure! Thanks Ryan and Bobby for the videos😁
Interesting there is written Tendon, as the manufacturer of Tendon ropes is actually called Lanex (in czech lano = rope) I would expect there the manufacturers name rather than the brand.
This is great as always, thanks guys !!!
Hey Ryan, what do you think is stronger the DMM pivot or the ATC guide? I don’t trust the reverso anymore…
Great info. I've always wondered.
You should test common rope-grabs, and at what point they damage the rope, e.g. Tibloc, Ropeman, jumar, etc.
Could you test how strong an ascender is?
This one is super interesting. Thank you!
Can you try testing BEAL ropes that have unicore? Would be interesting to see because when ever a rope seems to fail the mantle is pulled of first and then the core snaps, but with unicore ropes mantle and core are one unit.
Man, there are just so many things to break!
"I, am not saying that!!" I got a good laugh out of that. Good call my friend.
Would’ve been interesting to see a DMM pivot in the test
8:40 “I’m just watching TH-cam and can’t think for myself”😂
Belaying with a guide device:
"Lower me!"
*five minutes later*
"Lowering!"
you guys are awesome thank you.
I guessed 10-15kN but started to doubt myself with your guesses. Woah, it was 12.4 and man is that low!
Thanks Bobby and Ryan, i was thinking about the load while belaying my friend from top with my Reverso on Sunday. 12,41 Kn is enough but actually disappointed against to BD. Now thinking seriously to buy Black Diamond Atc.
The main difference for me to opt out for petzl is the weight, it's 57 gr, for the 80 of the atc guide or the 73 of the alpine, and the 12 kn, precompromissed, is still enough for any second falling
@@juanfigueroa8736 I love the beefy design of the BD ATC Guide. That thing inspires confidence. 23 grams difference, what's that about four beer farts?
Do you think you can break the reverso eye with 2 ropes in auto-block mode? Sometimes I belay two people off a guide atc and I imagine losing 2 partners at once.
How could both partners simultaneously generate 6kN? Idk, belay-ledge shenanigans and they both take factor 2s?
😬 I wouldn’t chance it, but I’m a nobody!
You make a very good point. I use the ATC Guide in the guide mode fairly often to belay two people up. Gourgou is wrong, you don't have to be belaying two leaders. You can be belaying two climbers from above as the device was designed to do. As you said, it would take something like both climbers to fall at the same time with some slack in the rope, very close to the time they reached the belay. An example of this could be if two climbers coming up on top rope reached a ledge a few feet below the belay device. There is a minimal amount of rope out between the device and the two climbers. Let's say the ledge gives way and both climbers fall a short distance on a short rope- the scenario of a factor two fall. Could this cause a failure? Fortunately, with a breaking strength of 30 kN, it seems very unlikely that the eye would break from the main part of the device. However, the force could slam the ATC Guide into the rock and compromise the lab values.
would u attempt these tests with a dmm pivot?
my guess would be 15kN
well i guessed 2.5kn to high
the Reverso on the Wall would be very very nice!
no, not really the same shape...
29 kn is crazy! Makes me feel good and safer then just 12kn
nice Video
any chance you could test the dmm pivot some time
We need more Lary.
I’m blown away by how strong that wire is. My partner had the cable just fall off once. It was mildly annoying. But would have sucked it if dropped mid climb.
He didn't test Reverso the way I wanted! (Top-rope scenario)
:((
Iteressting how rope broke at 7:00 mins for the rappeling test. I just got me a new ATC because the edges on the back where sharp on mine old one. Would be interessing to kmow if or how much sharp edges affect the breaking strenght of the rope when rappeling. But I guess 19 kn is super good enought though 😅
The guide style device I would most like to see tested is the DMM pivot, I would like to know how the pin effects the breaking strength.
Makes me feel good about my ATC guide 👌
"THANKS FOR YOUR TRUST LOL"
Can you test the DMM Pivot please?
I’d wager Bobby could hold 3.0 KN using his fancy yellow forearm “bushwhacker” protector as tie-off.... ! .....
The most interesting part was at the end when you indentified the Black Diamond rope as being the manufactured by Tendon from the Czech Republic.
Petzl probably won't tell you because they don't make reversos themselves... better to ask dmm...
Do you have source for that ? I've been to the petzl factory and they do make metal climbing stuff in there. Why would the reverso be produced elsewhere ?
@@moonti6820 on the back of the package of a reverso it will say 'made in the UK'. DMM makes reversos in Llanberis on behalf of Petzl as they don't have the hot forging expertise dmm does. Petzl ropes also aren't made by petzl, they're Edelrid. On that matter, I believe BD ropes are made by tendon I think.
Some people use a reverso as a self belay device for rope soloing. In this mode the device is clipped from the 'guide hole' to the climber's belay loop. In a big lead fall onto a rope that's fixed to the anchor at the bottom of the pitch the device could concievably see 5 or 6 kN +.
I think it's 3 Hulks Strong
This is great as always. I think it would be ingesting to see what would happen if you pulled on a quad anchor in two directions at the same time. This could happen if you have a haul bag on one set of strands and a climber juging on the other. Also once you get the drop tower built it would be interesting to see it pulled in different vertical directions. As if you have a haul bag or other person and a ladder takes a fall. Thanks!
can you test the pin of the DMM pivot ATC?
That would be awesome!!
Which knot do you use to test the strength of the rope?
5:55
TY, Great Videos
I watched your ropeswing video last night had dreams about it. Only a matter of time befour i try it . Why dont you sell a swing kit😊
Great content! Thanks as always.
so i wanted to comment something.. started to write this comment, forgot what i was about to comment... so.. yeah, here´s my pointless comment.. i guess for the algorythm?! anyway, keep it going guys, really enjoying the show and gaining some knowledge!
I'm wondering how strong DMM Pivot is, since it has moving part🤔
I was about to comment, exactly what you predicted, right before you did, but then I thought "hmm, maybe I should watch all the way to the end, before I comment" and I was right...
But now I'm thinking, why didn't you test the self blocking mode with a double strand? That could lead to twice the force on the back eye
Could you do a bonus test of the DMM Pivot???
How does a climber get 4-5 kN and a belayer can hang on just fine?
Because you normally only need to hold on with a force equivalent to your body weight and then you get lifted off the ground. If the belay device was glued to the ground completely statically, the rope would slide through instead, but probably only for a very short time until the force of the fall was dissipated through friction and stuff, so not very far. You might regret not wearing gloves though.
Oooh, could you hold on to the rope like that with a force meter but both with and without belay gloves just to see how much difference it makes in how hard you can pull?
Well done and bonus egg for those who hang in there until 19:54!
Ryan,
I know you've tested all these pro's singularly. But I would be really curios what and actual gear anchor rips at? Like 3 cams, in real rock? With soft shackles obviously, right?
One thing missing from the break test - the DMM pivot which has a non conventional guide mode hinge
This is awesome I was just looking up if you tested these the other day. 🤘🏼
3:35 does the climber get 4-5kN, or does the anchor? The force on the anchor would be roughly twice the force on the climber and belayer, not accounting for friction.
Hay I love your videos and have been binge watching them. I think it would be interested to see where the failure point is and at what KN rating a rope passed through a anchor bolt and back down (making a retrievable rappel) Then try different devices to see what is safest and if any pinch the rope or if the small bend radius effects the rope.... So may variables I don't know where it would fail? Finger 8? ATC?
@HowNOT2 coud you do a test on the Gigajul belay device ?
I'm surprised y'all didn't lock off the device with a device-mule-overhand knot (I suppose a softshackle is basically the same, but)
Video idea.... How in the world do these dynamometers work?
I think that when someone takes a fall, the force inside the belay device happens in a short period of time, so it may slip a little bit, but then the peak force is over and you have to hold just the body weight and thats fine without any slipping. The slipping is probably so less, that the rope between the device and the belayer can absorb the movement of the rope with its dynamic behavior.
I was wondering... instead of attaching the brake strand to a load cell and a fixed point.... could you try another test configuration... could you attached a [15kg?] weight to the brake strand, and redirect using a pulley, to maintain a constant brake strand load, and investigate the performance of these devices with various rope diameters / carabiner diameters... ?
Can you test thedmm pivot hang eye?
Crazy results
24kn honest without skipping the video
boy was I wrong
At 16:10 ish. What happens after failure when you're termanation knot slips as it did?.
With the bounce and recoil, I'd say AAAHHHHHH!!!!!!
P.S. swing stage is my experience so........ Any replies are welcome.
It's okay, I smashed the like button.
Be careful asking people to use the amazon link for anything and everything. If its not for a specific item your breaching the amazon T&C... I know its stupid but it has happened to youtubers in the past and they are kicked from the program... Another awesome video, im stoked for the drop tower!
UV exposed / old span sets next!?! Or have you done those already?
I use ATC guide in a scenario where it is not at the top of the rope. I self-belay starting from the bottom mostly on easy sports routes. The ATC top loop is clipped to my harness loop. If I fall, the last anchor catches, the rope goes above me, it locks, and I hang from the top loop of the ATC. I have taken a decent fall that way. It worked. I know it is "off-label". I guess I should say the usual disclaimer: "Don't do as I say. Don't do as I do".
By the way, I wanted to ask--I believe you said you couldn't think of a normal climbing scenario with more than 14 kN on an anchor. If you take a UIAA fall, won't the peak force on you be about 10 kN, so the peak force on the anchor over which the rope loops somewhere close to double less the loss due to friction (so it makes maybe 16 - 17 kN)?
They made a video with lead fall th-cam.com/video/m8z6adEqaOs/w-d-xo.html
@@MBC-th8le Thanks, its a great video! I haven't seen all the best they made yet.
Sure, but those are not the standard test UIAA falls. They are with a static belay high up on the wall with a worst-case fall factor for the bolt--not a slipping hand on an ATC on an un-anchored belayer on the ground. I guess the UIAA falls are not normal climbing situations.
Thanks Larry!