I was also afraid that it would be too mean for me and my wife to enjoy but it wasn't! I'm very glad that we took the risk because now it's our favourite small 2-player game.
Oh, Rahdo, you were going so strong until about the 2:30 mark... ;-) 7 Wonders: Duel is a duel, yes, but it is not mean... There are literally only three cards that let you harm your opponent: Two wonders let you destroy one resource and one wonder lets you destroy 3 coins. That's it!
Grammar aside, I appreciate that Rahdo acknowledges that his aversion to aggressive play is purely personal preference. Any time I hear him say he isn't fond of a game's aggressiveness, it makes me want to play the game because I love aggressive games! A good reviewer does not simply dictate whether they believe a game is good or bad, they try to break down a game into its basic elements and try to figure out what kind of players would or would not enjoy those elements. Rahdo explains that the game is very aggressive (relative to the original 7 Wonders), and he explains that 7 Wonders might be a better choice for gamers who are like him and his wife, who enjoy more passive or semi-aggressive games. As long as he doesn't pretend everyone feels the same way as him, which he doesn't, that's perfectly fine to do. Don't think of it as him criticizing the game, think of it as him *selling* the game to more aggressive players while simultaneously *selling* the original game to more passive players.
I do have two criticisms though. Even though Rahdo does explain that his aversion to cut throat games is personal preference, he sometimes overstates why the aggressiveness doesn't work for him while forgetting to address how much others might enjoy the cut throat style of the game. I believe he should try to make a tiny bit more effort reminding people that these cut throat games he doesn't care for might be right up the aggressive player's ally. I think that would cause less confusion as well as help sell the game better to those who enjoy cut throat games. : ) The other criticism is his use of the word literally at about 4:30, "I am *literally* gonna reach across the board and smack you silly." The word literally exists for a very specific purpose, don't strip away its meaning. : (
I think you're overstating the aggression in this game. The game has brilliant mechanisms that nudge the players into decisions that alter from their initial plans. You don't get to just do what you want in the game because both players are forced into making tough choices that directly impact the other player.
+Robert Sell Um, if one player starts pushing military, the other person needs to do the same, that makes it so that the game plays you. It becomes a need for playing catch-up and military dominates the game, unless you can get some respite when you have periods where no military cards come up as choices. It's almost as you can ask "what are the other cards doing there?" - especially the ones that can be destroyed by the opponent building some wonders...
+Tor Iver Wilhelmsen Ok yea you have to react to threats that are happening, but your opponent has to also react to threats you concoct. My point is that it is not the mean slug fest rahdo makes it out to be. It is a very tactical game, and calling it mean doesn't do justice to what the game does so well. This isn't multi-player solitaire and just because your actions impact your opponent doesn't make them mean spirited.
With so many reviews of Duel on TH-cam, I must say that yours was the one I was looking forward to the most - because I know how you feel about the original 7 wonders as a 2-player game. I feel the same way about the original - best as a 2-player game. Thanks for your interesting comparison of both games.
My wife and I just played this game and we loved it. We do not typically play take that style games, so I am surprised this one is described as so nasty. To us it felt like a fun competitive game with tough choices. Maybe the game mechanic might have some mechanics that could seem aggressive, but we certainly never really felt like we were in situations where we were being nasty and really attacking each other. Maybe my opinion is skewed since I have never played 7 Wonders? I love Rhados run throughs and typically agree with him, but this is one situation where my wife and I (also gamers who dislike attacking each other) got a completely different experience with this game. As an example for anyone who wants it....We played Imperial Settlers recently as well and that game was way to cutthroat for us. Sorry you did not like it, but keep up the good work!
The trashing of another player's resource card is, IMO, the meanest feature in the game. But there are only 2 of the 12 wonders that let you trash an opponent's resource card (Circus Maximus [gray], Statue of Zeus [brown]), and we house rule that each one, when built, allows the builder to take a card from the discarded pile and build it for free, instead of trashing the opponent's card. The only other house rule that we use is on the military track, where we change the value of money lost from 2, 2, 5, to 2, 2, 3. This makes it a little less harsh, and with these changes, we have fun. But, to each his own, right?
I appreciate the review and it actually sold me on the game despite you declaring it something you won't keep. While I appreciate your opinion to keep games with less "take that" combative elements, I prefer it much more than a game that plays like 2 person solitaire. Besides, as competitive and cut throat as we are willing to be when playing games, my wife and I know it's just that... a game. Thanks again and keep up the good work. I love the reviews and runthroughs!
The Bronze Age is one of my favorite historical eras to study. In many ways 7 Wonders Duel is in keeping with the spirit of that age during warfare. 7 Wonders the base game echos the era in relatively peaceful times. The city of Troy was utterly devastated by the victorious Greeks.
Coming from a wargame background, I can pretty solidly say that this game is amazingly tame, actually. heh Oh... and if this is too mean for you, then the true best two-player game of 2015 won't be for you, either... RAPTOR! ;-)
Thanks Rahdo for confirming my suspicions. As you say, this seems like a fantastically designed game built for two and that many will love... BUT I never understood how this could possibly replace standard 7 Wonders for us, as that is one of our favorites. As interesting as the card tableau is in its almost reverse drafting mechanic, we love the draft!
The wife & I got rid of our copy after one play. We prefer to build up a tableau without the frustration of the constant military push-n-shove. That totally killed it for us.
Okay, but if you take out the nastiness factor, it would essentially be the 2-player variant of 7 Wonders all over again. They took this system in a fresh direction, and I think this is actually a better gateway game than its older brother since all information is public.
+newkillerstar26 I like to use Duel to introduce people to the concept of the 7 wonders world. Because of the public information it makes teaching much easier than teaching 7 wonders.
I just played 7 wonders for the first time last week and loved it. It went over very well with the party gamers in the group. Combining that with my desire to build up my 2 player game collection, I may have to get this one.
7 wonders duel does have a sampling of some of the nastier elements found in Magic the Gathering. Resource destruction, resource choke and even a time walk or two. I can see where Richard is coming from if you are on the wrong end of someone's double turn where they burn your last 5 coins, blow up your only glass resource and leave you with two cards you can't do anything but discard for gold that's not a positive play experience and that does happen in 7wd. To contrast there is no diplomacy, trade agreements or things that shield you from the negative other than beating the other person to the punch. I love the game but it is cutthroat.
Just got this game given to me... haven’t played it only read the rules and watched plays online. I think it forces balance and you have to pay attention to what your opponent is doing. I think it will be cheque’s and balances and the meanness can be avoided to some degree unless that is the nature of the players. I can’t wait to play it and then judge it for real 😁
thank you for the run through, and I get what you saying!! I have the game and I play it with my wife, we both love it, and we actually don't think it's mean. for example, if one one of us advances in the military, the other consider it a challenge to prevent the other from winning in this direction, and isn't this the purpose of all the games, to provide challenges !!! thank you again, always love your run throughs :) by the way I loved your live gaming marathon with the dice tower and I hope to see more of that, maybe next time Rodney Smith can be part of it also :)
I certainly do not think of this game as "mean". I think of it as tactical. Players must be very mindful of their decisions for optimal play. I adore this game and now play the mobile version. Military victories are so satisfying. I suppose there is a good bit of "hate drafting" in the game if one considers that as being mean. I use that as one of my tactics.
thank you for this review. you give the perfect perspective that I needed. my wife and I play games together all the time and do not always enjoy the brutality of games. I am buying the original 7 Wonders now!
3 years ago when I started in the cardboard "hobby" I was in a game store in Athens with my husband, looking for some games. Lets say he is not a boardgamer but he is a gamer (he likes silent hill, adventure games and some racing games and also cell-phone abstract puzzle games. From boardgames he likes chess,uno, othello or reversi which I hate and scrabble, so its a personal bet for me to find THE ONE that he will like.) Anyway, I already had picked up Crazy maze, which he said he liked as an idea (but never played, I did though) and then I saw that box and instantely it spoke to me. I wanted this game a lot, I mean a loooot. But knowing that is a 2p game and that he is not going to play this, I never got it, I dont have enough resources for a shelf of shame...Instead we got onitama which is also a fantastic 2p game that I was certain he will love since he likes chess. Guess what!! We have played onitama only twice!!! He said he hasn`t grasped it yet (If he ever does, thats it! No more wins for me) A week ago a friend in facebook posted an official solo mode from the designers for 7wonders duel, which is also quite hard to beat. Now picture this: Little hearts coming through my eyes!!! I just bought the little thing, I have even make space for it in my only shelf of games.
I don't mind 7 wonders, it's ok, but this game is very very good, it kills 7 wonders. They have done a great job with this game. This game is by no means, mean, think of it as area control, you don't put up any fight you loose control. I find the military mechanic very thematic in this game. They break through your defenses, then they pillage your income, makes sense to me, and makes military more potent than in the original game. A lot of the complaints you are making about this version are down to poor strategy, by you, the player, its not an issue with the design. If you are paying 5 for 1 stone, you haven't played the game well, you have let your opponent runaway with the market on stone. If you allow your opponent to trash your money, you should spend it before they have that chance to, or start defending your empire. They all sound like pretty simple issues that would be resolved with a better game play strategy. Don't just look at what you want to do, but keep an eye on the other side of the table. That is what makes this game so much better than 7 Wonders.
+Jim Ferguson It sounds like the game becomes the traditional tactical act/counteract dance that classic two-player games tend to be, not everyone prefers that over the more strategic engine building of 7 Wonders...
It's interesting that you compare Duel to the original version. I totally agree with you on the part that the mean, in-your-face game style isn't for everyone's preference and that the original 7 Wonders is such a wonderful game because, like you said, its game style is simultaneously competitive AND collaborative, which give the game much more replayability and more peacefulness. You don't just think about how to destroy your opponents in order to win the game. It is often more about the player's ability of reacting and adjusting to the flow of the every player's game plan. One of my most interesting games was that I once got a Gizah as my civilization, with which stones are desperately needed in order to harvest the delicious victory points from its wonders. But then it turned out that somehow stone cards were not played during the first stages, and then I have to turn to science to score. At the end of the game I still managed to reaped 69 points with just two wonders completed thanks to the green cards! The thing that I'd never thought about such a game plan at the beginning of the game made it one of my best gaming experiences so far. With all these being said, I am still very intrigued to hear what you would say about the differences between the 2-player mode of the original 7 Wonders and the Duel. To me they are both in-your-face style, and the major difference is just that in the original version you exploit the free city as a tool to your own advantage, and besides this, the aggressiveness and directness isn't getting any less mean than the Duel. So I am surprised to see that you have such different thoughts between the two.
in 7w player affect the potential of what each other can have. in 7wd, they directly steal from each other and blow each others stuff up. big diference in our reckoning :)
I'm a bit late to the party here considering you reviewed this 4 years ago! 😂 Great review, I can understand your reasoning why it doesn't suit you & your wife, each turn is literally how can I screw the other person up. But I don't mind that occasionally... I would be interested to see what you think of the latest Duel game - Cosmic Encounter. It's so much fun & doesn't feel like you're sticking a knife into the other person. In fact, it's probably the one game where I'm not that concerned whether I win or lose - it's more about the incredible moments & surprises that can occur from the wild card interactions.
So any time you take someone's resource card, set someone back, slow down their progress, make them defend themselves, it's called mean? It seems that one must separate games from reality. If your wife or husband takes your resource card in a game or anything and you get your your feelings hurt or get upset in a serious way that it makes you not like the game that's taking a game too serious. I reserved the card my wife wasted 2 or 3 turns to get resources for in splendor tonight and she just smiles and says" ahhhh! You! Then we both laugh because we love each other and know we're just playing a game. There should NEVER be any sour or hurt feels when playing a g a m e. When you win, you just shot down every plan the other person made the entire game because they lost right? Any sport or game in life is a competition. You are trying to out maneuver, gain an advantage, and ultimately defeat your opponent. So the very essence of winning by your definition is cruel or mean.
Do you 2 not play with the Cities expansion for 7 Wonders? Or did you take out the cards and wonders that force your opponent to lose money? I have played both games, and I do think Duel is more mean, but 7 Wonders expansions do add a little meanness.
+Allen Brown correct... not a fan of the take that stuff that was added in some of the expansions... especially the tower of babel, which can be pretty brutal.
+Allen Brown losing in military doesn't take anything away from you in 7W... you just don't score points. in 7WD they added the (IMO) totally unnecessary extra bit of stealing money #notafan :)
+rahdo Contradiction. Can't be amazing if you don't enjoy them. I also can't find a movie amazing but and watch it. I also can't find music amazing and not listen to it. Stop standing on the fence trying to please everyone.
+shatnershairpiece agreeing to disagree. i can appreciate fine craftsmanship even if it's in service of something that i don't particularly enjoy. 7WD is a very finely crafted game full of brilliant and well balanced mechanisms. easy a top10 of the year contender based on the smartness of the design (as well as the quality of the presentation) and it's not a game that I would want to play :)
+rahdo "My wife and I just had an amazing meal last night. We didn't enjoy it. Not for us. We appreciated the fine craftsmanship of the ingredients and the way it was put together. Top ten restaurant!" No one would hire a reviewer like this. He/she would be institutionalized. It's your use of the word 'amazing'. Not appropriate. It also makes you look wishy-washy. I have a huge list of games that were sold because they SUCK, for us. They are not in any way 'amazing' to us, but they are many other words: 'boring', 'too long', 'too simple', etc. if they were amazing, we would've kept them and played them. I get that you have a large audience, and you're trying to please publishers and your viewers but if you don't take a stand and throw a game off a roof occasionally, you lose credibility. A man who likes everything, or finds every game 'amazing' cannot be trusted as a reviewer.
This felt more like a review of the original 7 wonders, even though they are very different games. Too much unnecessary comparison. Duel is a fantastic game on it’s own.
I pretty much agree with all your points but I have one counterpoint. I think you are doing to much to compare the duel version to the full version. I don't think it was ever meant to be compared but to be played and thought of as its own game standard. Try and ignore the fact that there is another 7 wonders and just analyze this game is the space that it resides in. just my 2 cents:)
rahdo totally understand that. I happen to enjoy it but it is completely preference of style. The mechanics are amazing which you point out. This is actually the only “dueling” type of game that my wife and I will ever play lol
This game is so timid. I know you only like 2 player solitaire games but come on man...this game has no more aggression than big 7 wonders with its expansions (especially cities)
Hey Richard, I think you're overreacting a little bit concerning the nastyness of the game. First, you don't have to play that way if you don't want to. During one game three times I had the chance to buy a card just to keep my wife from comleting a science project - it was on me to use these chances or not and it's not the games fault when it's played in a mean way. Second, the weak sides of each player are pretty ballanced. Your weak side was stone? Then the other player had another weakness, so what? In a 20 minutes game (as you say) such things aren't that bad as you make people believe, because you easily can have a 2nd game and things might look much better for you.
I agree--great game--brilliant game--but too aggressive. I could never play it with my wife. 7 Wonders is an excellent two player, and I would go so far as to say that the two player game is my favorite way of playing.
yeah right! 7 wonders duel is agressive but Troyes (whit its dice and place stealing) isn`t! what a lot of rubish can this man speak! it is something deformed twisted and unfinished in his thinking
I was also afraid that it would be too mean for me and my wife to enjoy but it wasn't! I'm very glad that we took the risk because now it's our favourite small 2-player game.
Kunter Tätte we all know rahdo and his wife are big puttycats
Oh, Rahdo, you were going so strong until about the 2:30 mark... ;-)
7 Wonders: Duel is a duel, yes, but it is not mean... There are literally only three cards that let you harm your opponent: Two wonders let you destroy one resource and one wonder lets you destroy 3 coins. That's it!
Grammar aside, I appreciate that Rahdo acknowledges that his aversion to aggressive play is purely personal preference. Any time I hear him say he isn't fond of a game's aggressiveness, it makes me want to play the game because I love aggressive games!
A good reviewer does not simply dictate whether they believe a game is good or bad, they try to break down a game into its basic elements and try to figure out what kind of players would or would not enjoy those elements. Rahdo explains that the game is very aggressive (relative to the original 7 Wonders), and he explains that 7 Wonders might be a better choice for gamers who are like him and his wife, who enjoy more passive or semi-aggressive games. As long as he doesn't pretend everyone feels the same way as him, which he doesn't, that's perfectly fine to do.
Don't think of it as him criticizing the game, think of it as him *selling* the game to more aggressive players while simultaneously *selling* the original game to more passive players.
I do have two criticisms though. Even though Rahdo does explain that his aversion to cut throat games is personal preference, he sometimes overstates why the aggressiveness doesn't work for him while forgetting to address how much others might enjoy the cut throat style of the game. I believe he should try to make a tiny bit more effort reminding people that these cut throat games he doesn't care for might be right up the aggressive player's ally. I think that would cause less confusion as well as help sell the game better to those who enjoy cut throat games. : )
The other criticism is his use of the word literally at about 4:30, "I am *literally* gonna reach across the board and smack you silly." The word literally exists for a very specific purpose, don't strip away its meaning. : (
This game sounds like it's right up my alley.
I think you're overstating the aggression in this game. The game has brilliant mechanisms that nudge the players into decisions that alter from their initial plans. You don't get to just do what you want in the game because both players are forced into making tough choices that directly impact the other player.
+Robert Sell I agree!
+Robert Sell totally
Agree wholeheartedly.
+Robert Sell Um, if one player starts pushing military, the other person needs to do the same, that makes it so that the game plays you. It becomes a need for playing catch-up and military dominates the game, unless you can get some respite when you have periods where no military cards come up as choices. It's almost as you can ask "what are the other cards doing there?" - especially the ones that can be destroyed by the opponent building some wonders...
+Tor Iver Wilhelmsen Ok yea you have to react to threats that are happening, but your opponent has to also react to threats you concoct. My point is that it is not the mean slug fest rahdo makes it out to be. It is a very tactical game, and calling it mean doesn't do justice to what the game does so well. This isn't multi-player solitaire and just because your actions impact your opponent doesn't make them mean spirited.
With so many reviews of Duel on TH-cam, I must say that yours was the one I was looking forward to the most - because I know how you feel about the original 7 wonders as a 2-player game. I feel the same way about the original - best as a 2-player game. Thanks for your interesting comparison of both games.
My wife and I just played this game and we loved it. We do not typically play take that style games, so I am surprised this one is described as so nasty. To us it felt like a fun competitive game with tough choices. Maybe the game mechanic might have some mechanics that could seem aggressive, but we certainly never really felt like we were in situations where we were being nasty and really attacking each other. Maybe my opinion is skewed since I have never played 7 Wonders? I love Rhados run throughs and typically agree with him, but this is one situation where my wife and I (also gamers who dislike attacking each other) got a completely different experience with this game. As an example for anyone who wants it....We played Imperial Settlers recently as well and that game was way to cutthroat for us. Sorry you did not like it, but keep up the good work!
The trashing of another player's resource card is, IMO, the meanest feature in the game. But there are only 2 of the 12 wonders that let you trash an opponent's resource card (Circus Maximus [gray], Statue of Zeus [brown]), and we house rule that each one, when built, allows the builder to take a card from the discarded pile and build it for free, instead of trashing the opponent's card. The only other house rule that we use is on the military track, where we change the value of money lost from 2, 2, 5, to 2, 2, 3. This makes it a little less harsh, and with these changes, we have fun. But, to each his own, right?
I appreciate the review and it actually sold me on the game despite you declaring it something you won't keep. While I appreciate your opinion to keep games with less "take that" combative elements, I prefer it much more than a game that plays like 2 person solitaire. Besides, as competitive and cut throat as we are willing to be when playing games, my wife and I know it's just that... a game.
Thanks again and keep up the good work. I love the reviews and runthroughs!
The Bronze Age is one of my favorite historical eras to study. In many ways 7 Wonders Duel is in keeping with the spirit of that age during warfare. 7 Wonders the base game echos the era in relatively peaceful times. The city of Troy was utterly devastated by the victorious Greeks.
And I thought I was alone in this opinion ;) Great to hear you think the same.
Coming from a wargame background, I can pretty solidly say that this game is amazingly tame, actually. heh
Oh... and if this is too mean for you, then the true best two-player game of 2015 won't be for you, either... RAPTOR! ;-)
+KabukiKid correct... i'm not even going to bother with that one. plus my wife would totally be put off by the theme
***** I completely understand. Definitely not in your wheelhouse.
The aggressiveness of this game is exactly the reason I prefer it over regular 7 Wonders!
Thanks Rahdo for confirming my suspicions. As you say, this seems like a fantastically designed game built for two and that many will love... BUT I never understood how this could possibly replace standard 7 Wonders for us, as that is one of our favorites. As interesting as the card tableau is in its almost reverse drafting mechanic, we love the draft!
The wife & I got rid of our copy after one play. We prefer to build up a tableau without the frustration of the constant military push-n-shove. That totally killed it for us.
Okay, but if you take out the nastiness factor, it would essentially be the 2-player variant of 7 Wonders all over again. They took this system in a fresh direction, and I think this is actually a better gateway game than its older brother since all information is public.
+newkillerstar26 I like to use Duel to introduce people to the concept of the 7 wonders world. Because of the public information it makes teaching much easier than teaching 7 wonders.
I just played 7 wonders for the first time last week and loved it. It went over very well with the party gamers in the group. Combining that with my desire to build up my 2 player game collection, I may have to get this one.
7 wonders duel does have a sampling of some of the nastier elements found in Magic the Gathering. Resource destruction, resource choke and even a time walk or two. I can see where Richard is coming from if you are on the wrong end of someone's double turn where they burn your last 5 coins, blow up your only glass resource and leave you with two cards you can't do anything but discard for gold that's not a positive play experience and that does happen in 7wd. To contrast there is no diplomacy, trade agreements or things that shield you from the negative other than beating the other person to the punch. I love the game but it is cutthroat.
Just got this game given to me... haven’t played it only read the rules and watched plays online. I think it forces balance and you have to pay attention to what your opponent is doing. I think it will be cheque’s and balances and the meanness can be avoided to some degree unless that is the nature of the players. I can’t wait to play it and then judge it for real 😁
thank you for the run through, and I get what you saying!! I have the game and I play it with my wife, we both love it, and we actually don't think it's mean. for example, if one one of us advances in the military, the other consider it a challenge to prevent the other from winning in this direction, and isn't this the purpose of all the games, to provide challenges !!! thank you again, always love your run throughs :)
by the way I loved your live gaming marathon with the dice tower and I hope to see more of that, maybe next time Rodney Smith can be part of it also :)
+Yaqoob AlSharrah rodney smith will be doing a marathon with the dice tower in the next month or so i think.
I certainly do not think of this game as "mean". I think of it as tactical. Players must be very mindful of their decisions for optimal play. I adore this game and now play the mobile version. Military victories are so satisfying. I suppose there is a good bit of "hate drafting" in the game if one considers that as being mean. I use that as one of my tactics.
This is still the best 2p game of all time IMO.
thank you for this review. you give the perfect perspective that I needed. my wife and I play games together all the time and do not always enjoy the brutality of games. I am buying the original 7 Wonders now!
3 years ago when I started in the cardboard "hobby" I was in a game store in Athens with my husband, looking for some games. Lets say he is not a boardgamer but he is a gamer (he likes silent hill, adventure games and some racing games and also cell-phone abstract puzzle games. From boardgames he likes chess,uno, othello or reversi which I hate and scrabble, so its a personal bet for me to find THE ONE that he will like.)
Anyway, I already had picked up Crazy maze, which he said he liked as an idea (but never played, I did though) and then I saw that box and instantely it spoke to me. I wanted this game a lot, I mean a loooot. But knowing that is a 2p game and that he is not going to play this, I never got it, I dont have enough resources for a shelf of shame...Instead we got onitama which is also a fantastic 2p game that I was certain he will love since he likes chess. Guess what!! We have played onitama only twice!!! He said he hasn`t grasped it yet (If he ever does, thats it! No more wins for me)
A week ago a friend in facebook posted an official solo mode from the designers for 7wonders duel, which is also quite hard to beat. Now picture this: Little hearts coming through my eyes!!! I just bought the little thing, I have even make space for it in my only shelf of games.
oh wow, i didn't know about the solo mode. will have to look into that, thanks for the heads up :)
I didn't even know that there was a two-person variant for 7 Wonders. No need for this game, then.
Grazie!
Great run through as always. I just ordered this game today. I tend to watch the run through a for your opinion, but I think it's okay to disagree :)
With the trade could you house rule it so that you are paying 2 to bank and 1 to other player for every extra you need? Or would that brake the game
+dave “Kick” W no idea :)
I don't mind 7 wonders, it's ok, but this game is very very good, it kills 7 wonders. They have done a great job with this game. This game is by no means, mean, think of it as area control, you don't put up any fight you loose control. I find the military mechanic very thematic in this game. They break through your defenses, then they pillage your income, makes sense to me, and makes military more potent than in the original game.
A lot of the complaints you are making about this version are down to poor strategy, by you, the player, its not an issue with the design. If you are paying 5 for 1 stone, you haven't played the game well, you have let your opponent runaway with the market on stone.
If you allow your opponent to trash your money, you should spend it before they have that chance to, or start defending your empire. They all sound like pretty simple issues that would be resolved with a better game play strategy. Don't just look at what you want to do, but keep an eye on the other side of the table. That is what makes this game so much better than 7 Wonders.
+Jim Ferguson It sounds like the game becomes the traditional tactical act/counteract dance that classic two-player games tend to be, not everyone prefers that over the more strategic engine building of 7 Wonders...
It's interesting that you compare Duel to the original version. I totally agree with you on the part that the mean, in-your-face game style isn't for everyone's preference and that the original 7 Wonders is such a wonderful game because, like you said, its game style is simultaneously competitive AND collaborative, which give the game much more replayability and more peacefulness. You don't just think about how to destroy your opponents in order to win the game. It is often more about the player's ability of reacting and adjusting to the flow of the every player's game plan.
One of my most interesting games was that I once got a Gizah as my civilization, with which stones are desperately needed in order to harvest the delicious victory points from its wonders. But then it turned out that somehow stone cards were not played during the first stages, and then I have to turn to science to score. At the end of the game I still managed to reaped 69 points with just two wonders completed thanks to the green cards! The thing that I'd never thought about such a game plan at the beginning of the game made it one of my best gaming experiences so far.
With all these being said, I am still very intrigued to hear what you would say about the differences between the 2-player mode of the original 7 Wonders and the Duel. To me they are both in-your-face style, and the major difference is just that in the original version you exploit the free city as a tool to your own advantage, and besides this, the aggressiveness and directness isn't getting any less mean than the Duel. So I am surprised to see that you have such different thoughts between the two.
in 7w player affect the potential of what each other can have. in 7wd, they directly steal from each other and blow each others stuff up. big diference in our reckoning :)
How about a little house ruling - get rid of "-5 coins" and move "-2 coins" on those spots. Military becomes 70% less harmful?
+Andris Slisans and military cards become weaker and probably messes up the balance of their costs
It's too mean?
Sounds like a recommendation to me.
I'm a bit late to the party here considering you reviewed this 4 years ago! 😂
Great review, I can understand your reasoning why it doesn't suit you & your wife, each turn is literally how can I screw the other person up. But I don't mind that occasionally...
I would be interested to see what you think of the latest Duel game - Cosmic Encounter. It's so much fun & doesn't feel like you're sticking a knife into the other person. In fact, it's probably the one game where I'm not that concerned whether I win or lose - it's more about the incredible moments & surprises that can occur from the wild card interactions.
yeah, i might be giving it a go :)
So any time you take someone's resource card, set someone back, slow down their progress, make them defend themselves, it's called mean? It seems that one must separate games from reality. If your wife or husband takes your resource card in a game or anything and you get your your feelings hurt or get upset in a serious way that it makes you not like the game that's taking a game too serious. I reserved the card my wife wasted 2 or 3 turns to get resources for in splendor tonight and she just smiles and says" ahhhh! You! Then we both laugh because we love each other and know we're just playing a game. There should NEVER be any sour or hurt feels when playing a g a m e. When you win, you just shot down every plan the other person made the entire game because they lost right? Any sport or game in life is a competition. You are trying to out maneuver, gain an advantage, and ultimately defeat your opponent. So the very essence of winning by your definition is cruel or mean.
+corey cozad th-cam.com/video/sceNBp3yYsw/w-d-xo.html
Funny thing is, this game destroys his big brother in every way ! :D
+frogman44300 Except in player count, and variety.
Do you 2 not play with the Cities expansion for 7 Wonders? Or did you take out the cards and wonders that force your opponent to lose money? I have played both games, and I do think Duel is more mean, but 7 Wonders expansions do add a little meanness.
Also, what about the dummy player's military hurting Jen in the original? Or even your own?
+Allen Brown correct... not a fan of the take that stuff that was added in some of the expansions... especially the tower of babel, which can be pretty brutal.
+Allen Brown losing in military doesn't take anything away from you in 7W... you just don't score points. in 7WD they added the (IMO) totally unnecessary extra bit of stealing money #notafan :)
You're losing it. Negs on Nippon, Mombasa, and now, even this?
+shatnershairpiece 3 amaze-balls games, that we just happen not to enjoy :)
+rahdo Contradiction. Can't be amazing if you don't enjoy them. I also can't find a movie amazing but and watch it. I also can't find music amazing and not listen to it. Stop standing on the fence trying to please everyone.
+shatnershairpiece agreeing to disagree. i can appreciate fine craftsmanship even if it's in service of something that i don't particularly enjoy. 7WD is a very finely crafted game full of brilliant and well balanced mechanisms. easy a top10 of the year contender based on the smartness of the design (as well as the quality of the presentation)
and it's not a game that I would want to play :)
+rahdo "My wife and I just had an amazing meal last night. We didn't enjoy it. Not for us. We appreciated the fine craftsmanship of the ingredients and the way it was put together. Top ten restaurant!" No one would hire a reviewer like this. He/she would be institutionalized. It's your use of the word 'amazing'. Not appropriate. It also makes you look wishy-washy. I have a huge list of games that were sold because they SUCK, for us. They are not in any way 'amazing' to us, but they are many other words: 'boring', 'too long', 'too simple', etc. if they were amazing, we would've kept them and played them. I get that you have a large audience, and you're trying to please publishers and your viewers but if you don't take a stand and throw a game off a roof occasionally, you lose credibility. A man who likes everything, or finds every game 'amazing' cannot be trusted as a reviewer.
+shatnershairpiece i think you might want to check niceguy.rahdo.com probably a better spot for this conversation...
Love this game! Sorry it didn't suit you Richard
This felt more like a review of the original 7 wonders, even though they are very different games. Too much unnecessary comparison. Duel is a fantastic game on it’s own.
This replaces 7 Wonders as a two player game. It is way better. The only bad part it can't run with 3+ players.
Military is not that overpowered. I've seen plenty of games were high military loses. If you focus solely on military it actually can be bad.
i never said it was overpowered, simply that we didn't enjoy stealing from each other and destroying each other's stuff
True. I mean it is called duel lol. 8)
I pretty much agree with all your points but I have one counterpoint. I think you are doing to much to compare the duel version to the full version. I don't think it was ever meant to be compared but to be played and thought of as its own game standard. Try and ignore the fact that there is another 7 wonders and just analyze this game is the space that it resides in. just my 2 cents:)
well, even if orig 7 wonders never existed, we still wouldn't care for the attackey nature of the game...
rahdo totally understand that. I happen to enjoy it but it is completely preference of style. The mechanics are amazing which you point out. This is actually the only “dueling” type of game that my wife and I will ever play lol
This game is so timid. I know you only like 2 player solitaire games but come on man...this game has no more aggression than big 7 wonders with its expansions (especially cities)
This game was too mean for my wife and I. We would rather just play 7 Wonders.
My wife and I got divorced after playing 1 round of this game.
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
It must of been like a knife fight? Lol
Hey Richard, I think you're overreacting a little bit concerning the nastyness of the game. First, you don't have to play that way if you don't want to. During one game three times I had the chance to buy a card just to keep my wife from comleting a science project - it was on me to use these chances or not and it's not the games fault when it's played in a mean way. Second, the weak sides of each player are pretty ballanced. Your weak side was stone? Then the other player had another weakness, so what? In a 20 minutes game (as you say) such things aren't that bad as you make people believe, because you easily can have a 2nd game and things might look much better for you.
I agree--great game--brilliant game--but too aggressive. I could never play it with my wife. 7 Wonders is an excellent two player, and I would go so far as to say that the two player game is my favorite way of playing.
yeah right! 7 wonders duel is agressive but Troyes (whit its dice and place stealing) isn`t! what a lot of rubish can this man speak! it is something deformed twisted and unfinished in his thinking
i'm thinking you forgot the smiley?
@@rahdo :) you are right. sorry i ve overreacted, even though....but after all it is only a game (one tends to forget that one`s excited)
@@elenaivas1136 no problem. glad you enjoy the game! i think it's very good, but definitely not for us