Either way you'll have issues to deal with, if you take the "Cautious" side, then you'll have a lot of people thinking they can be Christians without getting baptized for months and years occasionally. I am not sure that "Baptism" should be consider a "Step more", we know Baptism is a symbol but still, the Symbol and the Reality represented by it should not be over separated for the sake of cautiousness. The Issue of 'false converts' it's not necessarily related with a 'Baptism Experience' but often times it's more closely related with a faulty proclamation of the Gospel. In short, the 'Step more' it's not baptism in itself but the reality represented by it, which is a huge one, one of Death and Life and we are to make sure our audience understands the implications of the message we proclaim which should always end: Repent and Believe or Repent and be Baptized as Peter stated in Acts 2. When people understand the huge implications of embracing the Gospel, very rarely somebody would ask to be baptized if they don't mean it. So caution is needed at the time of the Gospel proclamation and not after.
I think the point you make here is very, very valid. I am happy to see these guys discussing this and relooking at baptism. What the evangelical community often fails to recognize is a tendency to look at Scripture through the lens of Zwingli (even if they don´t know it). N. T. Wright has a really good take on this (th-cam.com/video/5xjPI9KVPYM/w-d-xo.html). We need to always struggle to take off our theological glasses and be open to the possibility that we looking at something through tainted lenses. I would like to call us to take a fresh look at baptism and ask what did it mean in Scripture and not fear contradicting a works/righteousness theology (which I believe is very biblical) that it superficially appears to contradict but really doesn´t.
Biblically speaking; It’s spiritually responsible to baptise a believer as soon as possible. Acts 10:47 Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptised with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have. 48 So he ordered that they be baptised in the name of Jesus Christ. In Acts 11 Peter then got flack for being with the “uncircumcised” for giving them the word of God. Let us be careful not to quickly judge those whom are giving the word of God and baptising those whom we may think are not circumcised in their hearts. Matt: you can’t wait for fruit brother, look to Acts 8, it’s not biblical. Don’t weigh people down with works or getting their “life” together. If they sincerely believe in Christ they have been grafted onto Him, fruit will come in time. You got to understand that different people’s psychological backgrounds due to childhood or trauma may inhibit the rate at which someone displays fruit. I do however agree a profession of faith is imperative. 1 Cor 12:3 (last sentence) And no one can say Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit. Much love & respect to you all. Furthermore: just because someone is well adjusted and has their life together doesn’t mean that they’re not a false convert. There’ll be false converts either way, it is prophesied. Remember: the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. The fruit of the spirit is not being well adjusted in society. Don’t be afraid to reach out and counsel the completely broken and disheartened. Mark 2:7 On hearing this, Jesus said to them, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
I was saved by Christ Jesus on 12 August 2015. It would be another three years of diligently searching for the Lord and studying the scriptures when I was called to baptism.
how did baptism ever get detached from the great commission...from the initial "making of disciples'? It's not just Pentecost or the Ethiopian jailor...it's all other examples of people coming into Christ in the book of Acts. Where is an example of "the sinners prayer" in Acts?
Should people who know next to nothing about Jesus's life and teachings just be baptized because they emotionally are attracted to Christ? That's like saying let's marry every teenage couple who fall in love ten minutes after they meet each other. Yes, some converts were baptized immediately in the New Testament but the second and third generation Church discontinued this practice because too many people were convering that knew next to nothing about the events in Christ's life.
+Adeola & Jane I thought the same thing at first. The date this was uploaded was 2 years ago. Give a couple months earlier than that for the actual recording of the conversation. 2 years ago he was on the radar, but not nearly as identifiable as the false teacher he is. Also keep in mind that Mark Dever's mention of being somewhere that Rick was is not support of Rick. He might be just noting something that Rick said at a place that they were both at.
Love these guys but scripture is much more forceful otherwise. Baptisms were not new to the Jews in Peter's day....also think of the false converts during John the Baptist, he didn't wait for any amount of time to see fruit but gave a strong message and warning against false converts. EVERY example in scripture opposes these guys.
Your discussion is really irrelevant as you don't believe it does anything, therefore the point is moot. And including Rick Warren in your deliberation really questions the validity of what you are doing as Warren is a false teacher.
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Either way you'll have issues to deal with, if you take the "Cautious" side, then you'll have a lot of people thinking they can be Christians without getting baptized for months and years occasionally. I am not sure that "Baptism" should be consider a "Step more", we know Baptism is a symbol but still, the Symbol and the Reality represented by it should not be over separated for the sake of cautiousness. The Issue of 'false converts' it's not necessarily related with a 'Baptism Experience' but often times it's more closely related with a faulty proclamation of the Gospel. In short, the 'Step more' it's not baptism in itself but the reality represented by it, which is a huge one, one of Death and Life and we are to make sure our audience understands the implications of the message we proclaim which should always end: Repent and Believe or Repent and be Baptized as Peter stated in Acts 2. When people understand the huge implications of embracing the Gospel, very rarely somebody would ask to be baptized if they don't mean it. So caution is needed at the time of the Gospel proclamation and not after.
I think the point you make here is very, very valid. I am happy to see these guys discussing this and relooking at baptism. What the evangelical community often fails to recognize is a tendency to look at Scripture through the lens of Zwingli (even if they don´t know it). N. T. Wright has a really good take on this (th-cam.com/video/5xjPI9KVPYM/w-d-xo.html). We need to always struggle to take off our theological glasses and be open to the possibility that we looking at something through tainted lenses. I would like to call us to take a fresh look at baptism and ask what did it mean in Scripture and not fear contradicting a works/righteousness theology (which I believe is very biblical) that it superficially appears to contradict but really doesn´t.
Funny how you went papist later lol.
Biblically speaking; It’s spiritually responsible to baptise a believer as soon as possible. Acts 10:47 Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptised with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have. 48 So he ordered that they be baptised in the name of Jesus Christ. In Acts 11 Peter then got flack for being with the “uncircumcised” for giving them the word of God. Let us be careful not to quickly judge those whom are giving the word of God and baptising those whom we may think are not circumcised in their hearts.
Matt: you can’t wait for fruit brother, look to Acts 8, it’s not biblical. Don’t weigh people down with works or getting their “life” together. If they sincerely believe in Christ they have been grafted onto Him, fruit will come in time. You got to understand that different people’s psychological backgrounds due to childhood or trauma may inhibit the rate at which someone displays fruit.
I do however agree a profession of faith is imperative.
1 Cor 12:3 (last sentence) And no one can say Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.
Much love & respect to you all.
Furthermore: just because someone is well adjusted and has their life together doesn’t mean that they’re not a false convert. There’ll be false converts either way, it is prophesied.
Remember: the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control.
The fruit of the spirit is not being well adjusted in society. Don’t be afraid to reach out and counsel the completely broken and disheartened.
Mark 2:7 On hearing this, Jesus said to them, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
I was saved by Christ Jesus on 12 August 2015. It would be another three years of diligently searching for the Lord and studying the scriptures when I was called to baptism.
how did baptism ever get detached from the great commission...from the initial "making of disciples'? It's not just Pentecost or the Ethiopian jailor...it's all other examples of people coming into Christ in the book of Acts. Where is an example of "the sinners prayer" in Acts?
It seems Darrin Patrick has a much harsher mic than the deep, rich mic given Matt Chandler.
Mike Nicholson I think the sound guy just didn’t EQ him very well either
Appealing to Rick Warren for support certainly doesn’t help the case…
AMEN!!
Answer: no, You should warn them first. LOL
Should people who know next to nothing about Jesus's life and teachings just be baptized because they emotionally are attracted to Christ? That's like saying let's marry every teenage couple who fall in love ten minutes after they meet each other. Yes, some converts were baptized immediately in the New Testament but the second and third generation Church discontinued this practice because too many people were convering that knew next to nothing about the events in Christ's life.
Isn't Acts really the Acts of Jesus? Perhaps we should be bearing that in mind when someone approaches the church to be baptised.
Okay but is Rick Warren really a credible theological resource? Takes away from the credibility of the discussion.
+Adeola & Jane I thought the same thing at first. The date this was uploaded was 2 years ago. Give a couple months earlier than that for the actual recording of the conversation. 2 years ago he was on the radar, but not nearly as identifiable as the false teacher he is. Also keep in mind that Mark Dever's mention of being somewhere that Rick was is not support of Rick. He might be just noting something that Rick said at a place that they were both at.
Alice Jones Rick Warren isn't a false teacher.
@@Iffmeister yes he is, he is in fact a heretic!
Warren is a heretic
Love these guys but scripture is much more forceful otherwise. Baptisms were not new to the Jews in Peter's day....also think of the false converts during John the Baptist, he didn't wait for any amount of time to see fruit but gave a strong message and warning against false converts. EVERY example in scripture opposes these guys.
The fact that the speaker dropped Rick Warrens name is alarming ..Warren is a heretic
Your discussion is really irrelevant as you don't believe it does anything, therefore the point is moot. And including Rick Warren in your deliberation really questions the validity of what you are doing as Warren is a false teacher.
Ps. The "it" refers to baptism.
Neither are the answer. We should be baptizing our children in infancy.
Still relevant for those who convert from non-Christian families, right?
@@harrisondinsbeer4545 Absolutely!