Thank you for this video, and I 100% agree. I've worked in training and behaviour for nearly 20 years and I've NEVER had to string a dog up. Not once, not ever. Thank you for spreading the word in such a positive and constructive way.
If you watch the video the owners have been stringing the dog up for years; that's called restraining an out-of-control dog. And it seems the methods rely on desensitizing the dog to people individually. The dog needs to be desensitized to the friend, then the neighbor, etc. This is absurd. I saw another video he has where he uses a puppy penn to desensitize the dog to a person using distance and it said after a couple of months the dog was able to get two feet closer to the person without being triggered. This is absurd.
@@lexus9337 Do you mean me? If so I can assure you I don't lie. Just because you may not know the skills to handle these things in another way please don't assume the rest of us don't.
holy shit dude. you are my new hero. WOW. I work in dog rescue -- am still a novice of a few years -- so this subject is so meaningful to me. and it's so so disheartening to me in the dog world in general to see how common aversive, disrespectful, abusive methods still are to deal with dogs. you tore down the bullshit with such finesse. and every time I see some idiot comment "OH WELL SHOW ME A VIDEO OF A POSITIVE TRAINER WORKING WITH SERIOUS AGGRESSION ISSUES, YOU CAN'T BECAUSE IT DOESN'T WORK" I'm going to tell them "it would be like watching paint dry" and send them this (thank you so much for including the videos that showed how intense these dogs were to begin with)
Thank you for saying this. To get more views on videos, Don't forget to write a description for your video with words people search for, such as "aggression" , "aggressive". So you write the description mentioning dogs training and aggression a few times, like "When training dogs behavior issues such as fear, reactivity or aggression, it is.... blah blah blah mention dog dog training professional dog training and aggressive and aggression multiple times. You can add some tags but I dont they are as important anymore for algorithms. Your title can have more search terms in like include aggression or aggressive. I find the more intellectual the title the less people see the video. Titles like How to STOP aggression are so silly but they get the views... so I try to venture there, but sometimes i do a combination because I cant stand the silly titles but they do work...Anyway Im not the biggest expert at getting views. Just the description helps.
I have a daughter with dogs that visit from out of town for holidays. There isn’t an option for distance and we can’t afford boarding. So we separate them. If she happens to get free she would attack them. One is 90lbs. She is 24lbs. She hates all dogs. One little view of a dog and she loses it.
Well said, Michael! I've admired your work for a long time. Oh, but didn't you know that all of us professional cookie pushers are all just jealous of his fame, success, and designer track suits? He's actually "fixing" all these dogs by hanging them in the air🙄
Yes! My dog goes crazy barking at people wearing hats and sunglasses. She has her tail tucked the whole time, but people only react to her barking. She's truly afraid.
The silent dialogue: (yes, I'm a silent dialogue expert, working with just about anything that has a pulse. Have a diploma and everything. My nephew made it for me, all by himself (he's 5yrs old, so he knows what's up and is extremely qualified when it comes to this) Dog: I really don't like u, dude... but accepting u for an hour or two means loooots of treats for me! - Wooorth it 🧠 Dude: that's right, I'm buying ur "love", poochie.... So If u want treats, accept me, my guy.
Hello, this was very nice and I’d like to do the seminar with Dr. Jessica Heckman. I’ve tried to do a seminar with you before and I had to download some thing or do some thing I couldn’t do or my computer couldn’t do it because I didn’t have a certain program, but I’m wondering if I take this one and I would love this one do I just go into your page and click in there she is almost like a TH-cam or do I have to download something because it’s frustrating and I don’t know how to do that you probably remember me asking you before and I believe you refunded my money because I couldn’t do it but I definitely want to watch this. I’m having some issues and I’d love to watch that webinar. Please advise what I can do. Thank you.
It is typical for trainers to favor their method. It can't be just giving the dogs treats or strangling them on the leash. mostly it is a middle thing. Without a clear message from the owner, certain dogs will not hear, they do exactly what comes into their mind. Mine wanted to grab the postman when he gave me a package, unfortunately the dog wasn't on a leash and jumped at his hand. in the act i jumped the dog away like a basketball and sprained my thumb in the process. That didn't hurt the dog, but at the same time as my shout "hey!", that was enough that it didn't happen again. Mine clearly differentiates between strangers and those he's made friends with - including neighbors - with treats. He behaved the same every time a new human was comming. He is territorial by breed and wary of strangers Now i can take him in a relaxed manner and let him approach the visit gently. Visiting with gifts is of course most welcome:)
There are many ways to desensitize a dog to triggers that cause irrational fear or aggressiveness. There is a slow way as you describe that can work for some dogs but I have seen dogs that are so extreme that this wouldn't work. There are many instances where a dog can be shown that being near their fear trigger is harmless and through repeated exposure, they become desensitized to them in just three or four iterations with no negative long-term effects. It's also interesting that your videos show the owners restraining their dogs in the same way that Dog Daddy does (i am assuming he is the aversive trainer you are referring to) in his training videos. I am pretty sure the instances in your video aren't the first time the owner's dogs were restrained from lunging that way (i will even go as far as to say it's a daily occurrence during walks for many years), so for critics to say Dog Daddy is causing harm to the dogs via his leash restraints is probably wrong since the dogs have been restrained this way for years with no evident harm.
There is a huge difference between average dog owner trying to "control" heated situation and "proffesional" dog trainer doing this as a part of their primary training protocol. The owners are hiring trainers and pay good money to get long term positive results, not for a quick fix that will backfire on them with much more intensity in not too distant future. Dog trainers should have at the very least basic knowleadge of dog psychology and really good knowleadge of the learning theory.
@@dorkatomankova5132 You are assuming that the quick fix will backfire on them and the results are not long-lasting. If we interview a random selection of DD's clients that have a year passed and the owners testify the results do work with no negative long-term effects will that convince you that DD's methods are effective? This could be easily done. Ask Zak to do this; he is spending so much time and effort in his crusade against Dog Daddy and making pseudo-science claims ( ask him to cite the scientific research he is referring to and read the studies) he should happily do this to convince the viewers. The fact he doesn't do this should make you question his credibility.
Yet another example of philosophically based trainers using the most extreme (and worst) examples of punishment (or attempts at it) to "prove" why punishment is never necessary and can never be humane. :( Example 8062 of the pointless and often dishonest civil war in dog training. And this is a comment from someone who uses WAY more rewards in training than the OP.
What do you mean by "philosophically based"? Everyone has a philosophy and worldview they adhere to whether they realize it or not. Some people are just more vocal about it or are more aware of their own. I'm going to give some examples based on personal experience and observation as well as possibly incorrect generalizations: Balanced trainers, although nice and full of good intentions, tend to have a more retributive stance on justice, parenting, and dog training, and are centered around behaviorism. Compulsion based trainers are similar, except less kind, especially in the realm of justice/parenting, and they carry an additional level of pessimism about life/people/animals. Neutral leaning trainers can be a variety of personality types, but tend to lack a bit of a backbone in the name of "open-mindedness" which means they don't really stand for or against anything, and don't really know what they believe in unlike the previous two groups. Positive reinforcement based trainers view dogs and children mostly through a lens of behaviorism as well, but it's off-putting for them to make a dog/child feel bad in the form of a traditional punishment or correction, so they avoid that to the best of their ability. Force free trainers tend to be more focused on restorative justice, respectful/gentle/attachment parenting, and reject viewing animals or people through a lens of behaviorism unlike the other types, even positive reinforcement based trainers, which mean focusing less on rewards and more on the "why". That is my rough summary of the 5 general types of dog trainers I've seen. I'm well aware that more could have been added, but I just wanted a quick example of each of them from my observations to prove my point. Everyone has a way in which they view the world and how they operate in it.
Honestly I blame popular trainers like "Dog Daddy" for stuff like this. So many people think he's great when his methods are purely abusive and I've seen him hang, helicopter, and drag lots of dogs that should never have been and that really weren't that bad while hyping them up as "aggressive". There's one video in particular I always think of where he claims he's working with an "aggressive" german shepherd that lunges on the leash, and the moment the owner hands him the leash, the dog literally dropped to the floor and rolled over in submission while staying as far as physically possible from him before he ever gave it a single correction. It only tried to bite him 30 minutes into the session after he literally dragged it on its back on a prong collar HE (not the owner) put on the dog because it was too scared to even move (and I'm not even against prong collars if they're used correctly and in the right circumstances, but there is never a situation where its appropriate to DRAG a dog on one). "Aggressive" my ass. I don't really believe in the "positive only" camp of thought and my favorite trainers are Balanced trainers myself (Ivan Balabanov, Haz Othman/Shield K9, Robert Cabral, Tom Davis), but I can see why that school of thought exists when they have someone like Dog Daddy to point to and how wildly popular he is to all the ignorant dog owners out there who just want a no-effort robot for a pet, instead of a sentient being that needs careful and nuanced communication to have a mutual relationship with you. There are plenty of Balanced trainers who have gotten this right without being abusive, and then there are people like DD and Caesar Milan.
How is DD's method abusive? The first 10 to 20 seconds when DD restrains the dogs from biting is similar to the way the owners in these videos have been restraining their lunging dogs for many years prior.
@@robin212212 I would say there is a major difference between "restraining" a dog and stringing a dog up in the air by its neck. In the beginning stages of working with an aggressive dog, it can be a bit of trial and error trying to find the right distance where the dog is not reacting at the trigger. If we make a miscalculation and the dog goes over threshold, obviously it would need to be restrained by the owner for safety and the distance increased. But there is a right and wrong way. Notice the initial clip of the doberman indoors. The owner has lowered their center of gravity and is holding the leash low, not stringing the dog up in the air. This is a much gentler restraint (although ideally the dog would be on a harness with a muzzle to avoid any bodily injury to either the dog or others, and appropriate distance used so the dog didn't react as it did). The woman with the german shepherd looks like she has a background of using punishment techniques, since she does give some pretty severe leash corrections/yanks in order to keep the dog from lunging forward, however this is pretty common where owners from a more punishment-oriented training mindset come over to a posotive trainer for help because punishment methods have failed to correct the issues. Part of the positive trainers job here is to also help the owner transition from their older habits and mindset, which obviously takes time (therefore the client's actions dont necessarily represent the trainers techniques). The point is that, while sometimes, and especially in the beginning, gentle restraint may be necessary, physical corrections like yanks and jerks on the leash and harsh restraints such as stronging up/helicoptering are NEVER acceptable as a training tool in positive training methods. Our goal is to reduce stress as much as possible and never intentionally inflict pain, discomfort, or fear. Wordy, I know, but does that make sense?
Such an emotional topic with the hysteria being fed by more and more emotion. If abuse is occurring then why have animal welfare laws not been used? Managing a dog in red zone is dangerous and many people have to deal with this in the real world and not in a sterile environment but how do you correct the out of control behaviour unless you have the skills to immediately manage it when it happens.
To answer your question about a dog in "red zone" (what we simply call "over threshold") in the real world environment, as a positive trainer I would first of all use proper management techniques to minimize the chances the dog would be put into the types of situations where they would be likely to go over threshold in the first place. Ask yourself, when is the dog most likely to go over threshold? For example, if the dog goes over threshold when someone comes to the door, you could teach the dog to go to its crate in another room, or out the back door to a fenced yard when the doorbell rings. Or another example, if the dog is so reactive he can't currently handle a neighborhood walk without going over threshold (especially if its multiple times per walk), I would avoid neighborhood walks for a while and use alternative ways to exercise the dog while giving him a period of time to come down off of those stress hormones (which can last up to two weeks in their system). I would then bring the dog to a less challenging location, maybe a very out-of-the-way park with wide open spaces, where we could observe the dog's triggers from a distance he can tolerate without reacting, and teach him new coping skills other than aggressing. When you do it this way, with minimal stress, they can progress fairly quickly to the point where you could start the neighborhood walks again, using those new skills. If you accidentally get too close and the dog reacts, the only "correction" you need to make is to simply move the dog away from the trigger to get more space. Also using proper equipment is important (muzzle if there is a bite history, a harness or head collar for the dog; a harness is better, but for very large, powerful dogs a head collar offers more control) for ensuring safety. It's really that simple- basically you 1) manage the dog to temporarily avoid the real world situations that trigger their aggression while you 2) use intentional training sessions to teach the dog new coping skills, alternative behaviors, and/or change their emotional reaction to their triggers, and then 3) apply those new skills in the real world.
@@johanna8206 continual avoidance is one way to do it but hardly practical in the longterm for people who live in the real world. I suppose people with challenges should, in your eyes, not keep a pet? Most of the hysteria on this subject is due to subjective emotional responses to confronting displays of aggression and how that is being managed in the moment. Avoiding the truth of the situations people face with their out of control dogs because it upsets the "treats are the only way people" is ridiculous. Some dogs respond well to only positive reinforcement but others are tougher cookies and need a modified approach. People have to deal with the dog in front of them and attempting to deny them the opportunity to make progress is pretty regressive if not oppressive.
@@judet3026 avoidance is not for the long term, but short term while the dog is being trained in the appropriate ways to handle the situations that send it over threshold. As I said, the positive approach to "correcting" a bad situation is to remove the dog, using its behavior as feedback to the owner/trainer on what needs to be worked on in training set ups. Those in the aversive camp purport that a dog must be corrected immediately in the heat of the moment, while positive advocates use management tools to prevent real-world reactions while simultaneously helping the dog overcome their emotional hangups through training sessions in order to build their skills to the level of applying it to the real world. It's a philosophical difference, and I sure can't make anyone use this approach if they've made up their minds to not do so. What I can say is that I have owned and trained aggressive and reactive dogs and find that the management + training formula is actually much easier and less stressful to dog and owner than the alternative. I've also witnessed first hand the potential fallout of dogs who have been punished in the heat of the moment (while growling/baring teeth) with the result of a much more dangerous animal that no longer uses those warning signs before attacking. No, it doesnt happen with every dog, but its always a risk, and one that never happens with positive training, because we use behavior as feedback on our own actions and respect when a dog is telling us they're uncomfortable. I'm saying this to explain my point of view, obviously I'm not likely to change your mind, however that doesnt mean that positive techniques dont work or are tedious/difficult for the average dog owner in the real world (actually quite the opposite). I'd also like to clear up the myth that positive trainers only use "treats", as though that were the only tool in our toolbox. What we often do is use whatever the dog is most desiring at the moment as a reward for performing a correct behavior. That could be sniffing the ground, increasing distance from a trigger, chasing a ball, going for a walk, etc. Food can be used to increase the reinforcement, or in place of what the dog wants when what they want is inappropriate (like car chasing, etc). We also use negative punishment techniques, and always gradually eliminate the food/reinforcer once a behavior is established. There are also positive training techniques that specifically don't use food as a reinforcer, even for aggression (Behavior Adjustment Training (BAT) is one. The frustration is trying to get those opposed to our methods to see that positive training is so much more than "throwing cookies and hoping for the best". There's such a deep application of behavioral analysis and learning psychology that is backed up by science and decades of proven results. But people must be willing to look into it for themselves.
Show a video of those dogs meeting a new person at the front door...I will wait.... You have no control of the dog, as soon as the dog ignores the food, you ADMIT you must choke the dog. Hilarious tbh. Reality, a combination of both methods is best, not your extreme force free method, that never puts the dog under any real control, just a liability on the end of a harness.
That would be a separate scenario that you train for, starting as low-stress as possible for the dog and gradually building the difficulty to match the dog's ability. For instance, pairing a very quiet knock sound with high value food until the dog shows a positive emotional response. Then work on making the knocking a cue to go to place, then work on a family member that the dog is extremely familiar with knocking on the door while inside the house, dog goes to place. Then same family member knocks from outside the door, dog goes to place, etc. Do you see how you start with easy and build up only as the dog is having success? Gradually you can practice with other people from outside the home that the dog is familiar with. With a human-aggressive dog who is fearful of meeting new people and you dont have time to train for the moment / unexpected visitors, you could also use the knock as a cue to go out to the backyard or in a crate in a quiet bedroom so they can be properly managed and feel comfortable until you have more opportunity to introduce them to the new person. This is just one of many approaches that positive trainers use, but very effective, and akin to teaching a child to swim by starting in the shallow end of the pool and showing them how to float and move their arms and legs vs just throwing them into the deep end and letting them fend for themselves. Zero need for choking or hanging the dog here or ever.
You absolutely cannot "always" control any of your variables. Distance, duration, and intensity. You're out walking your dog, off peak, and a dog comes rushing out of it's house, or is loose in the neighborhood and comes at your reactive dog. How do I control Distance, Duration, Intensity? Or you live in apartment and have to somehow get to floor level to walk your dog. How do you control everyone coming in and out? This method you talk about takes forever, and will probably fail under anything less than peak conditions. ugh. So, you're going to train this dog for a year for a "maybe". This method did not work with my dog. His is aggressive to anyone who comes into the gate. Even people he knows and has been fine with, he will at first be aggressive with them. We did positive for 99%. And it's great, but somethings take force. Dogs use force. The "science" against adversives is seriously flawed.
![UNTOLD - Exploring Aggressive Dog Behavior with Michael Shikashio [Part 1]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/akWbjpdgxzg/mqdefault.jpg)
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"Maybe I need to remove my hat and sunglasses"... absolute gold !
Thank you for this video, and I 100% agree. I've worked in training and behaviour for nearly 20 years and I've NEVER had to string a dog up. Not once, not ever. Thank you for spreading the word in such a positive and constructive way.
If you watch the video the owners have been stringing the dog up for years; that's called restraining an out-of-control dog. And it seems the methods rely on desensitizing the dog to people individually. The dog needs to be desensitized to the friend, then the neighbor, etc. This is absurd. I saw another video he has where he uses a puppy penn to desensitize the dog to a person using distance and it said after a couple of months the dog was able to get two feet closer to the person without being triggered. This is absurd.
I know you're lying 😂😂😂
@@lexus9337 Do you mean me? If so I can assure you I don't lie. Just because you may not know the skills to handle these things in another way please don't assume the rest of us don't.
Yes! Thanks for making it abundantly clear that abusive methods are never a way to truly change a dog's behavior ❤
holy shit dude. you are my new hero. WOW.
I work in dog rescue -- am still a novice of a few years -- so this subject is so meaningful to me. and it's so so disheartening to me in the dog world in general to see how common aversive, disrespectful, abusive methods still are to deal with dogs.
you tore down the bullshit with such finesse.
and every time I see some idiot comment "OH WELL SHOW ME A VIDEO OF A POSITIVE TRAINER WORKING WITH SERIOUS AGGRESSION ISSUES, YOU CAN'T BECAUSE IT DOESN'T WORK" I'm going to tell them "it would be like watching paint dry" and send them this
(thank you so much for including the videos that showed how intense these dogs were to begin with)
Thank you for saying this. To get more views on videos, Don't forget to write a description for your video with words people search for, such as "aggression" , "aggressive". So you write the description mentioning dogs training and aggression a few times, like "When training dogs behavior issues such as fear, reactivity or aggression, it is.... blah blah blah mention dog dog training professional dog training and aggressive and aggression multiple times. You can add some tags but I dont they are as important anymore for algorithms. Your title can have more search terms in like include aggression or aggressive. I find the more intellectual the title the less people see the video. Titles like How to STOP aggression are so silly but they get the views... so I try to venture there, but sometimes i do a combination because I cant stand the silly titles but they do work...Anyway Im not the biggest expert at getting views. Just the description helps.
Thank you for your compassionate service to dogs in need.
I am so glad to see your examples of alternatives. ❤
Thank you for sharing your methods and showing the behavior before and during and after with multiple people, not just the owner and trailer .
Unimportant but I got startled when he started lifting the "dog" until it turned out to be a plush toy 😂😂
I have a daughter with dogs that visit from out of town for holidays. There isn’t an option for distance and we can’t afford boarding. So we separate them. If she happens to get free she would attack them. One is 90lbs. She is 24lbs. She hates all dogs. One little view of a dog and she loses it.
Well said, Michael! I've admired your work for a long time. Oh, but didn't you know that all of us professional cookie pushers are all just jealous of his fame, success, and designer track suits? He's actually "fixing" all these dogs by hanging them in the air🙄
Your jealousy already shows by belittling his clothes. Stop exaggerating. Nobody gets hung up, only avoid to get bitten by a jumping and lunging dog.
Great job and great video.
Yes! My dog goes crazy barking at people wearing hats and sunglasses. She has her tail tucked the whole time, but people only react to her barking. She's truly afraid.
Well said! Thanks for putting this out there!
POV: hate on Dog Daddy without hating on Dog Daddy. Wow.
@DogDaddy
The silent dialogue:
(yes, I'm a silent dialogue expert, working with just about anything that has a pulse. Have a diploma and everything. My nephew made it for me, all by himself (he's 5yrs old, so he knows what's up and is extremely qualified when it comes to this)
Dog: I really don't like u, dude... but accepting u for an hour or two means loooots of treats for me!
- Wooorth it 🧠
Dude: that's right, I'm buying ur "love", poochie....
So If u want treats, accept me, my guy.
Thanks for this video. These techniques are never ok. I wonder how the "trainer" would feel if he was hung by a rope and helicoptered??
I highly recommend Michael Shikashio's master course.
Hello, this was very nice and I’d like to do the seminar with Dr. Jessica Heckman. I’ve tried to do a seminar with you before and I had to download some thing or do some thing I couldn’t do or my computer couldn’t do it because I didn’t have a certain program, but I’m wondering if I take this one and I would love this one do I just go into your page and click in there she is almost like a TH-cam or do I have to download something because it’s frustrating and I don’t know how to do that you probably remember me asking you before and I believe you refunded my money because I couldn’t do it but I definitely want to watch this. I’m having some issues and I’d love to watch that webinar. Please advise what I can do. Thank you.
I appreciate your video and I am hoping to take your class on aggression in dogs.
Maravilhoso! Obrigada por se pronunciar!
It is typical for trainers to favor their method. It can't be just giving the dogs treats or strangling them on the leash. mostly it is a middle thing. Without a clear message from the owner, certain dogs will not hear, they do exactly what comes into their mind. Mine wanted to grab the postman when he gave me a package, unfortunately the dog wasn't on a leash and jumped at his hand. in the act i jumped the dog away like a basketball and sprained my thumb in the process. That didn't hurt the dog, but at the same time as my shout "hey!", that was enough that it didn't happen again. Mine clearly differentiates between strangers and those he's made friends with - including neighbors - with treats. He behaved the same every time a new human was comming. He is territorial by breed and wary of strangers
Now i can take him in a relaxed manner and let him approach the visit gently. Visiting with gifts is of course most welcome:)
There are many ways to desensitize a dog to triggers that cause irrational fear or aggressiveness. There is a slow way as you describe that can work for some dogs but I have seen dogs that are so extreme that this wouldn't work. There are many instances where a dog can be shown that being near their fear trigger is harmless and through repeated exposure, they become desensitized to them in just three or four iterations with no negative long-term effects. It's also interesting that your videos show the owners restraining their dogs in the same way that Dog Daddy does (i am assuming he is the aversive trainer you are referring to) in his training videos. I am pretty sure the instances in your video aren't the first time the owner's dogs were restrained from lunging that way (i will even go as far as to say it's a daily occurrence during walks for many years), so for critics to say Dog Daddy is causing harm to the dogs via his leash restraints is probably wrong since the dogs have been restrained this way for years with no evident harm.
There is a huge difference between average dog owner trying to "control" heated situation and "proffesional" dog trainer doing this as a part of their primary training protocol. The owners are hiring trainers and pay good money to get long term positive results, not for a quick fix that will backfire on them with much more intensity in not too distant future.
Dog trainers should have at the very least basic knowleadge of dog psychology and really good knowleadge of the learning theory.
@@dorkatomankova5132 You are assuming that the quick fix will backfire on them and the results are not long-lasting. If we interview a random selection of DD's clients that have a year passed and the owners testify the results do work with no negative long-term effects will that convince you that DD's methods are effective? This could be easily done. Ask Zak to do this; he is spending so much time and effort in his crusade against Dog Daddy and making pseudo-science claims ( ask him to cite the scientific research he is referring to and read the studies) he should happily do this to convince the viewers. The fact he doesn't do this should make you question his credibility.
@@dorkatomankova5132 In this video he states that Dog Daddy does understand dog psychology.
Yet another example of philosophically based trainers using the most extreme (and worst) examples of punishment (or attempts at it) to "prove" why punishment is never necessary and can never be humane. :( Example 8062 of the pointless and often dishonest civil war in dog training.
And this is a comment from someone who uses WAY more rewards in training than the OP.
What do you mean by "philosophically based"? Everyone has a philosophy and worldview they adhere to whether they realize it or not. Some people are just more vocal about it or are more aware of their own. I'm going to give some examples based on personal experience and observation as well as possibly incorrect generalizations: Balanced trainers, although nice and full of good intentions, tend to have a more retributive stance on justice, parenting, and dog training, and are centered around behaviorism. Compulsion based trainers are similar, except less kind, especially in the realm of justice/parenting, and they carry an additional level of pessimism about life/people/animals. Neutral leaning trainers can be a variety of personality types, but tend to lack a bit of a backbone in the name of "open-mindedness" which means they don't really stand for or against anything, and don't really know what they believe in unlike the previous two groups. Positive reinforcement based trainers view dogs and children mostly through a lens of behaviorism as well, but it's off-putting for them to make a dog/child feel bad in the form of a traditional punishment or correction, so they avoid that to the best of their ability. Force free trainers tend to be more focused on restorative justice, respectful/gentle/attachment parenting, and reject viewing animals or people through a lens of behaviorism unlike the other types, even positive reinforcement based trainers, which mean focusing less on rewards and more on the "why". That is my rough summary of the 5 general types of dog trainers I've seen. I'm well aware that more could have been added, but I just wanted a quick example of each of them from my observations to prove my point. Everyone has a way in which they view the world and how they operate in it.
Honestly I blame popular trainers like "Dog Daddy" for stuff like this. So many people think he's great when his methods are purely abusive and I've seen him hang, helicopter, and drag lots of dogs that should never have been and that really weren't that bad while hyping them up as "aggressive". There's one video in particular I always think of where he claims he's working with an "aggressive" german shepherd that lunges on the leash, and the moment the owner hands him the leash, the dog literally dropped to the floor and rolled over in submission while staying as far as physically possible from him before he ever gave it a single correction. It only tried to bite him 30 minutes into the session after he literally dragged it on its back on a prong collar HE (not the owner) put on the dog because it was too scared to even move (and I'm not even against prong collars if they're used correctly and in the right circumstances, but there is never a situation where its appropriate to DRAG a dog on one). "Aggressive" my ass.
I don't really believe in the "positive only" camp of thought and my favorite trainers are Balanced trainers myself (Ivan Balabanov, Haz Othman/Shield K9, Robert Cabral, Tom Davis), but I can see why that school of thought exists when they have someone like Dog Daddy to point to and how wildly popular he is to all the ignorant dog owners out there who just want a no-effort robot for a pet, instead of a sentient being that needs careful and nuanced communication to have a mutual relationship with you. There are plenty of Balanced trainers who have gotten this right without being abusive, and then there are people like DD and Caesar Milan.
How is DD's method abusive? The first 10 to 20 seconds when DD restrains the dogs from biting is similar to the way the owners in these videos have been restraining their lunging dogs for many years prior.
@@robin212212 I would say there is a major difference between "restraining" a dog and stringing a dog up in the air by its neck. In the beginning stages of working with an aggressive dog, it can be a bit of trial and error trying to find the right distance where the dog is not reacting at the trigger. If we make a miscalculation and the dog goes over threshold, obviously it would need to be restrained by the owner for safety and the distance increased. But there is a right and wrong way. Notice the initial clip of the doberman indoors. The owner has lowered their center of gravity and is holding the leash low, not stringing the dog up in the air. This is a much gentler restraint (although ideally the dog would be on a harness with a muzzle to avoid any bodily injury to either the dog or others, and appropriate distance used so the dog didn't react as it did). The woman with the german shepherd looks like she has a background of using punishment techniques, since she does give some pretty severe leash corrections/yanks in order to keep the dog from lunging forward, however this is pretty common where owners from a more punishment-oriented training mindset come over to a posotive trainer for help because punishment methods have failed to correct the issues. Part of the positive trainers job here is to also help the owner transition from their older habits and mindset, which obviously takes time (therefore the client's actions dont necessarily represent the trainers techniques). The point is that, while sometimes, and especially in the beginning, gentle restraint may be necessary, physical corrections like yanks and jerks on the leash and harsh restraints such as stronging up/helicoptering are NEVER acceptable as a training tool in positive training methods. Our goal is to reduce stress as much as possible and never intentionally inflict pain, discomfort, or fear.
Wordy, I know, but does that make sense?
Such an emotional topic with the hysteria being fed by more and more emotion. If abuse is occurring then why have animal welfare laws not been used? Managing a dog in red zone is dangerous and many people have to deal with this in the real world and not in a sterile environment but how do you correct the out of control behaviour unless you have the skills to immediately manage it when it happens.
To answer your question about a dog in "red zone" (what we simply call "over threshold") in the real world environment, as a positive trainer I would first of all use proper management techniques to minimize the chances the dog would be put into the types of situations where they would be likely to go over threshold in the first place.
Ask yourself, when is the dog most likely to go over threshold?
For example, if the dog goes over threshold when someone comes to the door, you could teach the dog to go to its crate in another room, or out the back door to a fenced yard when the doorbell rings.
Or another example, if the dog is so reactive he can't currently handle a neighborhood walk without going over threshold (especially if its multiple times per walk), I would avoid neighborhood walks for a while and use alternative ways to exercise the dog while giving him a period of time to come down off of those stress hormones (which can last up to two weeks in their system). I would then bring the dog to a less challenging location, maybe a very out-of-the-way park with wide open spaces, where we could observe the dog's triggers from a distance he can tolerate without reacting, and teach him new coping skills other than aggressing. When you do it this way, with minimal stress, they can progress fairly quickly to the point where you could start the neighborhood walks again, using those new skills.
If you accidentally get too close and the dog reacts, the only "correction" you need to make is to simply move the dog away from the trigger to get more space. Also using proper equipment is important (muzzle if there is a bite history, a harness or head collar for the dog; a harness is better, but for very large, powerful dogs a head collar offers more control) for ensuring safety.
It's really that simple- basically you 1) manage the dog to temporarily avoid the real world situations that trigger their aggression while you 2) use intentional training sessions to teach the dog new coping skills, alternative behaviors, and/or change their emotional reaction to their triggers, and then 3) apply those new skills in the real world.
@@johanna8206 continual avoidance is one way to do it but hardly practical in the longterm for people who live in the real world. I suppose people with challenges should, in your eyes, not keep a pet?
Most of the hysteria on this subject is due to subjective emotional responses to confronting displays of aggression and how that is being managed in the moment. Avoiding the truth of the situations people face with their out of control dogs because it upsets the "treats are the only way people" is ridiculous.
Some dogs respond well to only positive reinforcement but others are tougher cookies and need a modified approach. People have to deal with the dog in front of them and attempting to deny them the opportunity to make progress is pretty regressive if not oppressive.
@@judet3026 avoidance is not for the long term, but short term while the dog is being trained in the appropriate ways to handle the situations that send it over threshold. As I said, the positive approach to "correcting" a bad situation is to remove the dog, using its behavior as feedback to the owner/trainer on what needs to be worked on in training set ups. Those in the aversive camp purport that a dog must be corrected immediately in the heat of the moment, while positive advocates use management tools to prevent real-world reactions while simultaneously helping the dog overcome their emotional hangups through training sessions in order to build their skills to the level of applying it to the real world. It's a philosophical difference, and I sure can't make anyone use this approach if they've made up their minds to not do so. What I can say is that I have owned and trained aggressive and reactive dogs and find that the management + training formula is actually much easier and less stressful to dog and owner than the alternative. I've also witnessed first hand the potential fallout of dogs who have been punished in the heat of the moment (while growling/baring teeth) with the result of a much more dangerous animal that no longer uses those warning signs before attacking. No, it doesnt happen with every dog, but its always a risk, and one that never happens with positive training, because we use behavior as feedback on our own actions and respect when a dog is telling us they're uncomfortable. I'm saying this to explain my point of view, obviously I'm not likely to change your mind, however that doesnt mean that positive techniques dont work or are tedious/difficult for the average dog owner in the real world (actually quite the opposite).
I'd also like to clear up the myth that positive trainers only use "treats", as though that were the only tool in our toolbox. What we often do is use whatever the dog is most desiring at the moment as a reward for performing a correct behavior. That could be sniffing the ground, increasing distance from a trigger, chasing a ball, going for a walk, etc. Food can be used to increase the reinforcement, or in place of what the dog wants when what they want is inappropriate (like car chasing, etc). We also use negative punishment techniques, and always gradually eliminate the food/reinforcer once a behavior is established. There are also positive training techniques that specifically don't use food as a reinforcer, even for aggression (Behavior Adjustment Training (BAT) is one. The frustration is trying to get those opposed to our methods to see that positive training is so much more than "throwing cookies and hoping for the best". There's such a deep application of behavioral analysis and learning psychology that is backed up by science and decades of proven results. But people must be willing to look into it for themselves.
And then, finally, ten years later you might have accomplished the task. Great.😇 l@@johanna8206
Show a video of those dogs meeting a new person at the front door...I will wait.... You have no control of the dog, as soon as the dog ignores the food, you ADMIT you must choke the dog. Hilarious tbh. Reality, a combination of both methods is best, not your extreme force free method, that never puts the dog under any real control, just a liability on the end of a harness.
That would be a separate scenario that you train for, starting as low-stress as possible for the dog and gradually building the difficulty to match the dog's ability. For instance, pairing a very quiet knock sound with high value food until the dog shows a positive emotional response. Then work on making the knocking a cue to go to place, then work on a family member that the dog is extremely familiar with knocking on the door while inside the house, dog goes to place. Then same family member knocks from outside the door, dog goes to place, etc. Do you see how you start with easy and build up only as the dog is having success? Gradually you can practice with other people from outside the home that the dog is familiar with. With a human-aggressive dog who is fearful of meeting new people and you dont have time to train for the moment / unexpected visitors, you could also use the knock as a cue to go out to the backyard or in a crate in a quiet bedroom so they can be properly managed and feel comfortable until you have more opportunity to introduce them to the new person. This is just one of many approaches that positive trainers use, but very effective, and akin to teaching a child to swim by starting in the shallow end of the pool and showing them how to float and move their arms and legs vs just throwing them into the deep end and letting them fend for themselves. Zero need for choking or hanging the dog here or ever.
You absolutely cannot "always" control any of your variables. Distance, duration, and intensity. You're out walking your dog, off peak, and a dog comes rushing out of it's house, or is loose in the neighborhood and comes at your reactive dog. How do I control Distance, Duration, Intensity? Or you live in apartment and have to somehow get to floor level to walk your dog. How do you control everyone coming in and out? This method you talk about takes forever, and will probably fail under anything less than peak conditions. ugh. So, you're going to train this dog for a year for a "maybe". This method did not work with my dog. His is aggressive to anyone who comes into the gate. Even people he knows and has been fine with, he will at first be aggressive with them. We did positive for 99%. And it's great, but somethings take force. Dogs use force. The "science" against adversives is seriously flawed.
"dog daddy" bs